20VC: Jake Paul on Why Traditional VC is Toast and Attention is More Valuable Than Cash | Politics: Will Jake Paul Actually Run for President? | Inside the Payday of Fighting Anthony Joshua and Mike Tyson | with Geoffrey Wu, Co-Founder at Anti-Fund

0:00Attention is more valuable than capital. Can VCs become influencers faster than like native influencers like Jake and Logan can become VCs? I just hang out with Trump and like I go on stage and do a speech off the top. And the first thing he says to me on stage when I turn around is, oh, you're going to run for office someday. And like then we go backstage and he's like, you should be the president. And then he like endorses me. I think he is arguably one of the best presidents the United States has had in this term. Money buys freedom. And I think freedom makes people happy. This is 20VC with me, Harry Stebbings.

0:37And today we have such a different one for you. Jake Poole, one of the most recognizable people on the planet, is in the studio, baby. He's here with his partner, Jeffrey Wu. What you don't know about Jake, he's probably one of the best investors of the last few years with his fund, AntiFund. They've backed the likes of Ramp, Cognition, Chronosphere, and many others. And this is a show unlike any that Jake has done before, ranging from politics to parenting to the next generation of great investments. This was a fascinating discussion, revealing a side to Jake that I don't think many people have seen before.

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4:28This is a VC show first and foremost. But I actually spoke to John at Wanda. who is a portfolio company of yours. And he said that you've actually got to start with just mapping out the Jake Paul business empire ecosystem to fully understand what it's like. Can you just give us like an overview, and whoever's best for this, an overview of what the Jake Paul business empire looks like today? Yeah, so it goes like anywhere from being a peanut farmer to fighting Anthony Joshua's to venture, you know, working with open AI and advising them. but yeah I have a ranch where like I literally sell peanuts but yeah like it's entertainment mixed yeah obviously with the entrepreneurial vibes but it's you know better which is sports gaming it's I spoke to the founder beforehand okay Joey yeah he's great yeah you really you really talked to everyone dude I did I was like listen I eat Jake obviously um you know invest in you guys he's like no he didn't he co-founded it with me yeah and and so we had a lovely chat oh dude, I do my work.

5:29Yeah, you're locked in. That's why I like this show. I mean, maybe the way, because it's easier for me to brag about Jake, but I think the highest order bit is that I think Jake represents the next generation of Americans and what they want to be like. And I think we have a unique opportunity to not just be, Jake being an inspirational model, but also be a capital force and an attention force to drive a future and a culture that we want to see. So I think if you stem from just a demographic perspective, right, the number one job that young people want to have is to be an influencer. I think one of Jake's personal missions is how to inspire the next generation of young men.

6:02Jake, are you proud when you hear that number one job aspiration is to be an influencer? Yeah. And so it's funny. I've actually like, it's been that way since I was like 18. They did like some company did a study when buying and YouTube was like popping and that, and I've known that statistic for the longest time. Do you think that's healthy? because I don't think you wanted to be an influencer. No, exactly. And that's what I tell people. They're like, well, how do I be like you? I said, don't like be yourself. And also like, are you entertaining? Like you have to really ask yourself that question.

6:36And like, can you actually do this? And are you smart? Are you creative? Do you have the work ethic? You know, like, you know how much work you just put in just for this one podcast. And people don't really like see the behind the scenes things that go into these videos. and it's become second nature to me and I have a team and all that stuff but it's still like a full-time what do people not see work-wise that you wish they saw most they don't see the there's like so much genius in every 0.1 second of content that I make like every little millisecond is calculated and dialed and thought through I think that stems from being a creator from vine where you had 6.9 seconds people thought it was six but it's actually 6.9 and every second had uh and millisecond had to be measured out and calculated and changed and edited around and so i think that like meticulous nature of what i do and create has obviously helped me since since the beginning it's almost like politics with my team where we're like arguing about every little second or song of the video or things like that that actually matter do you lose the art in the science?

7:47I don't think so. I think the art happens like when we're filming. The science is like in post and in edit. And so it goes back to the question of like people want to be influencers, but like, are you naturally good at it? And are you naturally like able to talk on camera and tell the story? At the end of the day, I'm like a storyteller in a sense. And so that's the art. It's interesting. So are the best founders and so are the best fundraisers. What makes a great story? Conflict, struggle, love would be the top three answers for that. And I purposely invoke emotions in people as an entertainer.

8:24I want people to feel like fear or joy or hate or something. I don't care what they feel, but I know in certain videos what I'm going to make them feel. Like I posted an edit where like I act like I was depressed and like couldn't find meaning in my life. It went super viral because like people were like, yo, are you okay? People were texting me like, yo, are you okay? Like, I saw your video. And I'm just like, no, I'm just an entertainer. Like, I'm just making people think I'm depressed. And I think the boldness of character too, right? Like, I think Jake is very authentic and passionate about what he believes in.

8:59So I would add that later, I think. Does that ever make your life harder on the institutional side? Is it difficult for you where you have to project confidence to institutions? and with respect, Jake is doing content that might seem a bit down or distracted or whatever that might be. Yeah, it's clearly polarizing, but it's very obvious, right? It's a double-edged sword, right? Like Jake has such a big persona and character that one can just be dismissive on first glance. But I'm okay with that because at the end of the day, we're in the money-making business and our track record makes money. If it's like, hey, LPs don't understand the marketing and the attention gathering, it's like, okay, we'll make ourselves and other people more money that are a little bit smarter than you guys.

9:40So I think it's like you either lean into the brashness or the aggressiveness, or you try to hide it. Every great story, every great founder, every great business is like, you lean into strength. You want to be the best in the world. And I think we have a chance to be the best in the world on our exact style of investing and company formation. Is all publicity good publicity? It's the age old saying, i'm never sure yeah it's a very interesting question there is besides like a couple of things you know like don't mention the island yeah no that's what i was gonna say it's like i was like is epstein's publicity good like no like not all of it's good no it's it's a bad saying do you regret saying that you were uncounselable no no not at all because i've never done anything that is bad actually i've been a dumb arrogant kid oh i filmed videos or things around fire like okay cool if everyone's life was on camera from the time they were 14 years old like we put a camera on you 24 7 through your college years like what were you doing at that frat party like that's probably much worse than you know me lighting a pool on fire in in Los Angeles.

10:51So that's the thing is I'm uncancellable because like no one will ever find or see anything about me that is actually bad. It's all just like fake hate. We were talking about kind of the business empire at the start. If we filter that down into like being the best investor you can be, the immediate thought I had was why does venture make sense if we're candid, you know, reports around the latest fight is you make 70 to 100 million dollars, OpenAI says. Why does it make sense to do a 30 million dollar fund yeah i think um if the 30 mil fund was like the end goal it would be like no but like we want to run 10 20 billion dollars at some point and look up to people like you know josh kushner thrive who started with you know i think it was five million dollars and so you have to start somewhere and and the you know obviously made a shit ton of money for the past fights and as my career went but my first fight against Deji a local here I guess in London like I think we made like a million dollars so like you have to start somewhere to be able to make it big when you think about like the pillars of venture like how it's done there's finding there's picking there's winning and there's helping now I may be being assumptive here and rude, but I would assume that, say, Jake is the master of winning and helping on distribution, and then you are the finder and the picker.

12:15Is that correct? Yeah, I think people underestimate Jake's reps and what he sees, right? Even just describing the nuances of 6.9 seconds on a product feature. In some sense, he was an early adopter in all the social platforms as a creator. So I think that same skill set in terms of knowing what is coming around the corner, understanding consumer sentiment is essentially the same instinct as us as VCs being like, hey, this guy's a winner or this girl's a winner and their product and their vision, their roadmap makes a lot of sense. So I think the picking side, I don't think it's, we shouldn't underestimate Jake's taste there.

12:52And I would argue that with AI making traditional smart people stuff like coding and financial analysis as just metered intelligence. I would argue that having taste, having that cultural vibe, and I think that's one of your big edges as an investor. I think you're just cooler and more with it and vibe with the next generation of founders much better than a boomer VC. And I think you deserve the success on the platform and your funds. I think that's the challenge or the gauntlet that we're excited to fight with. I just saw that Bill Gurley was tweeting that paid marketing is the worst form of marketing.

13:29And I'm just like, hey, Uber, he's most well-known for kicking out Travis from Uber. And Uber burnt tens of billions of dollars on straight-up marketing and just got the profitability, showing a quarter of net income positive 14, 15 years in. So my sense is that the software and the classic smart people stuff gets commoditized. And the attention, the taste, the culture side gets more and more important. So I think the world goes into our favor versus away. Keith Raboy from CoSla and previously Founders Fund said that it's really important to know what we sell as investors, like what our product is.

14:04And I quite like that framing. When you think of the product that you sell founders, do you sell founders distribution? and how do you think about keeping the brand and the profile pure and not being like better partnership and Sips Mags and all the other companies, Oats Overnight, I did my work, that you partner with? I think to each their own. We're not like plugging and saying like, yo, we are going to give you distribution in companies where we don't think we're going to do that. So you're super upfront like, hey, we're not going to be distributing you on our platforms, but we'd love to partner with you.

14:41Yeah, and I think there's tons of other things to provide in terms of knowing culture and marketing and just information in general. Hey, you should do this. You should link with this person. This would be a good access point. There's, you know, like a religion app that we're investors in. It's like, okay, do you want to like, you know, link with Trump's pastor? Like I have his phone number. Like things like that. That is the most random network in the show ever. It's like Trump's pastor. Yeah, sure. It's like, you know, we can provide value in tons of different ways. And I think each company is a different conversation.

15:20What do the quote unquote best VCs even do? A lot of it's those like introductions to revenue sources. Like we are a phone call away from literally any executive, any billionaire in the world. Would you rather have a Jake Paul introduction or some random boomer suited VC make that intro? The response rate and the integration rate is like super high. We can compete with the guys who've been doing this for 30, 40 years because one, the founders of those funds have been dead or gone. It's just other guys who got hired into doing this. And I think we have a fresh take on saying, hey, let's compete.

15:52I'd have like a sniper shot late stage strategy if I was you. Have 10 of the best companies that we all agree at late stage and just aggressively go after them. I know you're invested in Ramp for one of them. I think you're in Andruil. and are just leveraged the shit out of the personal brands and put 10, 20, 30 million dollars to work. I think that's actually the correct way to think about it. I think late stage, I think we have unfair access advantage and I think our value add is actually very valuable too because at that growth stage, you're looking at IPOs, you're looking at mass media branding and I think if you can look at track record, you can spend millions of dollars on like some marketing VP or some CMO or some agency.

16:32Literally, Jake has driven probably like billions of dollars of enterprise value and impressions and all like in terms of new media. And in some sense, like I see what Mark and Ben are doing with their podcast media company is essentially like one thought I had was that can VCs become influencers faster than like native influencers like Jake and Logan can become VCs? Like that's kind of like the battle. Benchmark acquired Jack Altman's podcast, you know, A16Z, great media platform. That's again, it goes back to like one of our founding principles, which is attention is more valuable than capital.

17:08Okay. So when we think about that, we have early and then we have late stage. And then we have incubations as well because you do better as well. Yeah. Okay. So we want to start companies as part of it. Yeah. Not too many. Obviously, like takes a ton of work, but incubated better and W. And then my brother's working on something now. Obviously, like he built Prime as well. So that's a part of the strategy coming in with ownership, but also, you know, just seeing a gap in the market with better. It was all these sports gaming companies paying hundreds and hundreds and billions of dollars in marketing and seeing that their ads were terrible.

17:45Their app was clunky. It didn't make sense. I was like, yo, I could build a better app and promote it better and have better content. And that's how we created better. So better, better, better. What deal are you not in that you would most like to be in? I think we want to do a little bit more in Europe. So I think Helsing is cool. With geopolitics, I think there needs to be like a European neoprime for defense. I agree. We're chatting with Maddie over at Eleven Labs. I think they're doing great stuff. Maddie's amazing. But going to your point, I think with the power law of just like the winners are just super big.

18:20I think it just makes sense to just try to pick the number ones and maybe the number twos in every single category. How much time can you realistically spend on venture? I spend a lot of time on it. I think people don't realize how involved I am and we're constantly on a day-to-day basis talking, catching up, texting in a constant flow, weekly calls, etc, etc. So very, very involved and flying to SF multiple times a year, meeting on the ground floor with people, advising the companies that were a part of meeting with our different companies, etc. So very passionate about it. And it's because I like it.

18:58And some of the other things that I do, I don't spend as much time like in the weeds. But this is like something I've always loved since I was 17, 18 years old and seeing the Ubers and the Twitters of the world and Postmates and getting to see these companies when I was that young, like made an impression on me. And I've always loved it since then. One thing I find hard is when we sell brand and we sell media, which is in some ways what we sell as our differentiator. One challenging element is I feel relevance is this constant fight. You constantly are on a treadmill and you say about your Jack Altman's going to burn.

19:35And Jack's got a fucking podcast and so does Sequoia. I mean, everyone has a podcast and then you have net new people. I sometimes feel like Madonna and there's fucking Dua Lipa at the party. Okay. I very kindly said I look 36. Thanks, Jake. As a proud 28-year-old, I sit here. That treadmill for relevance is hard. Do you find that treadmill for relevance hard? I don't because I've, like, broken through, like, escape velocity. Just me being me now, like, keeps me there. And I have a counterpart brother. Like, we're like the testosterone Kardashians, right? So, like, if I'm not doing something in the media, he's literally at the flag football NFL beefing with Tom Brady the most like talked about thing in sports for the whole week right so like we go back and forth and we've built this ecosystem and we're just differentiated and in the right markets in sports in content in YouTube Instagram TikTok and we've been at the forefront of it since foundation so like I'm in a different league but I think for other creators and influencers it's like a dying market for sure and it's it's very hard for people to stay in the know we we are seeing more and more creators influencers move into investing what would you say to them knowing what you know now it's a very tough game and if you like actually aren't good at it or know how to do it then like maybe don't just like try to do it because you could end up it's it's almost second nature to me because i have vision and can see like where things are heading i'm ahead of culture and these things you know since i was a kid and so we can see where things are going and i think it is an actual talent and and skill set to be in the right rooms to know who to talk to to know where to spend time and know how to get what you want and so i would say a lot of people like can't do that what do you see now that other people don't see about culture about taste that's like asking like a karate master to like show you all of his moves welcome to the show like it's almost like instinctual around the founder or the market both and culture content and i think it's just like a feeling right like like how do i don't know like how do i know like what video to make right like it's just like what's your hit rate on videos pretty good like i can i think me and my like me and my number one content guy before we post the video, we'll predict how many views it's going to get pretty much accurate, like 85 % of the time.

22:13Really? Yeah. Wow. Within like, like we'll say like, this is going to get 8.5 million or this is going to get 30. This is one's going to get 40. I don't know. It's just like second nature in a sense. An example is boxing where I saw to become the greatest like celebrity influencer boxer to the point where I wanted to become world champion because I knew that boxing was going to have a revival in part because of me and I saw the attention the views how much people liked it the drama and the money that was in it and I made the point to become the best one in it and then I excelled out of the group of just being influencer boxer and went into like actually oh this kid can like become world champion because i saw where everything was going and that it was gonna have a revival and be on the forefront of things like netflix and being able to make hundreds of millions of dollars from it before everyone else and there's a reason why all the other influencers fell behind do you ever do or say shit and then go oh shit i'm matt anthony joshua he's a big fucking guy i i do my push-ups yeah he's a big guy do you ever say things and then you're like oh dear went too far there no i don't think so when you stand next to him you're not actually like i shouldn't have done this one oh no i think like he's just like nah it was fine no like even someone literally came up to me this morning in the freaking spa area at the hotel and was like mate that was amazing it was crazy that you did that but you left with your stock higher that's what he said for me it was a win-win-win across the board fighting him and i knew that going into it i knew that i could actually like hang in there with him and the world would be shocked by my heart and skill set and even if he was to knock me out or knock me down i would just keep on getting back up and so i think that the fight actually humanized me a bit and people got to see a different side of me it's funny rahul said he's really dialed in that it doesn't matter if i win or lose attention makes me money boxing business yeah you stand by that yeah 100 it's all math right like i was more nervous to fight gervonta davis if you lose to like a tiny person people would be like oh you suck so it's actually better to lose to a giant when we think about kind of culture and you mentioned ai there in terms of the tooling people ascribe that sport is the most exciting asset class because it is defensible to ai you're not going to see robots fighting in the same way that you'd expect to see humans fighting do you agree with that in terms of the rising stock price of sport in a world of AI?

24:53Yeah, we've been on that side of the thinking, but I think things are going to get weird. So like, I can't say for sure, like, that's an open question for me still. What do you mean things are going to get weird? You know, if you, if I can put into cognition or any of these things and develop my own game, that's personally tailored for me with a couple clicks of a button why would i watch you know the nba when like this game i made for myself has all my favorite things in it and friends and storytelling and i made my own world of warcraft or minecraft in a day it will that suck away the entertainment or i made my own whole netflix movie the exact way i wanted it with certain shit in it will that personalization take away from other forms of entertainment which is sport like that's where i mean things might get weird are you excited for the future yeah answer has to be yes yeah i love that yeah like i don't know in all honesty i'm quite scared i'm quite scared because i think the majority of society will become unemployed most of actually kind of low-level work i think will be replaced i think a lot of white collar work will be replaced I think we're facing this massive kind of depressed society of young people looking for meaning.

26:13We've got terrible, terrible eating disorders that are worse than ever. I'm nervous. And then on top of that, we have world conflict like never before. I always said this like 100 years ago, you know, when they were coming up with the atom bomb and the nuke and people were like, oh, we're so scared. Oh, what's going to happen? There's always like fear in the development of, you know, human society and new technologies. and I'm sure people were scared of cars at some point. Like, what's this going to mean? It's going to take my job or I can go get another job. You can either look at it on the positive, but I believe, and obviously it's going faster now and developing faster, but I think humans will figure this shit out.

26:54I think you have to look at the optimism and how do you be a beneficiary of this change. I think we each need to make a decision. Do you accelerate and drive faster into it and have a chance to take the steering wheel or do you sit back and be scared and crash into the wall? Well, we're in Europe, so we'll sit back and be scared. You guys are going to crash into the wall. Yeah, we'll sit back. If that's an option, we'll take that one. I want to take a harder stance. I feel like Europe is the sick man of the world right now. I feel like Europe could have some of the foundational, civilizational of Western culture that came out of here, London, England, right?

27:32And it feels like they're not seizing the opportunity to lead, to create the future. Humanity is driven by people that seize the opportunity. And I think you can decide, are we going to be passive onlookers of change or are we going to be driving that change? What opportunity did you not seize that you wish you had seized? Should I have just like been in the valley founding, you know, some company and being just more involved in tech? I don't know. I don't have like any regrets or nothing. Anything comes up like that but i do like the drake line where he's like uh if we hadn't made it here we would be out in silicon try to get our billions on and i always relate with that like i think it's a good line does money make you happy does money make you happy money buys freedom and i think freedom makes people happy there is the the famous saying like more money more problems is like all way too true i think it's a double-edged sword for sure there's a lot more to manage a lot more stress but then there's also a lot more freedom and if you want to survive it's like no different than food like mom was a nurse and uh dad was a roofer we were fine but like wasn't around anything like where'd you get your animalistic drive from i remember a specific moment where my parents were getting divorced and my dad had to pay like a lot of alimony and he was crying it was one of the only times i've ever seen him cry because he had to sell like everything he loved to be able to like afford living i thought to myself like i never want to be this like crying father who doesn't isn't able to afford much and telling his kids we have to move to a different house and selling everything that he like I remember he had to fucking sell his snowboard like his little shitty snowboard just for like 150 dollars and stuff like that and it's like now I'm blessed to be able to even just a snowboard so I think of small things like that and that that moment definitely stuck out to me to be like yo I don't want to be in that position so I need to figure out money we were chatting before about I said you know I tell my girlfriend about having on the show I think there's a lot that the world doesn't know about Jake but they think they know from the public persona.

29:50You obviously work with him on a daily basis. What does the world not know that you know from the unique perspective that you have? Yeah, Jake, I think is like a fundamentally a very kind, generous human. So I think a lot of the philanthropy, supporting young up and comers, you know, anecdotes of like, you know, friends that are suicidal coming to Jake for help and just Jake spending his time and money to just take care of people, I think is under told. But maybe that's like a fine way to be about it. I don't think Jake is doing it for PR. I think he just genuinely is like a very kind, generous human being, which may be like alternative to like the, you know, I'm a boxer or beating the talking shit to Mike Tyson type of a character that he that he projects.

30:29Are you ever just sitting there like, oh, no, no, be nice. Don't say that to Mike. No, I think. Well, one, I'm. We're selling fights, dog. Yeah, I think we're thick as in it. So, like, I'm just I'm on the fucking roller coaster. Just like, yeah. Yeah, I'm laughing. No, but I think part of where we're late, I think I have like a troll tendency myself. I just, I kind of like seeing kind of the absurdity or the chaos of just like seeing funny things happen in the world. I think there's like an amusement part of just like, this is interesting. I get to perceive an interesting experience. I want to see more interesting stuff.

31:08And if Jake is like out there making interesting things happen in the world, that's really funny to me on a personal level. And then maybe that's the second point in terms of working closely. Just I'm very impressed with the endurance and the context switching ability. Maybe I think we got to spend like three hours with the president a couple weeks ago. And maybe not to make the direct comparison, but I was just very impressed with the president just like on and like context switching really hard. Remember people's faces, having good conversations, going to rally, dancing, going on a podcast, doing a TikTok dance and just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

31:42Just like switching and being in flow constantly. I think that's one thing that I see some parallel. I think Jake's just raw energy output is very, very high. And I can speak to that as being top of my class at Stanford, graduated computer science, honors in distinction, had a perfect SAT score. I've seen the caliber of quote unquote smart people and the endurance and energy levels. And I think it's like Jake's endurance and energy is very, very high. And then I think the other part of what I think is an interesting nuance is that you can switch from being like a celebrity, getting like paparazzi when we're out in LA to like talking shit as a professional athlete, but actually having to train like twice a day, like eight hours a day doing the recovery, then jumping on business calls with literally like the most famous CEOs that have been on your show, right?

32:27Like advising them on their marketing strategies. Sitting down with Sam. Yes. I mean, I would say like Sam is, yeah, Sam is great. Like we love Sam. But I think that context switching, because I think people just see like snapshots of jake and it's like okay you just see like the full 360 it's like cool like i'm inspired by the level of context switching and the flow to be able to move with all these different circles yeah no thank you for the nice words um yeah that i think a lot of people don't know shit about me which is like even if they watch everything or know like you still haven't met me or spent time i think the the number one thing that people say to me after like meeting for the first time is you're a lot different than i expected oh so you thought i was a dickhead fucking retard like i don't know my bad bro like cool you mentioned getting to spend a couple of hours with the president this was from friends of yours not from me so i'm not stoking any flames here they are would you like to run for office or be involved in politics a lot more i wouldn't like to but i feel like it could be needed at some point i i've always said like it jeff was actually the first one that mentioned it like six years ago or so he was like you you're gonna like be the president and like you should run for president and i was like and then it like slowly became less of a joke and like people actually other people started saying it to me and then i just hang out with trump and like the i go on stage and do a speech uh off of off the top and the first thing he says to me on stage when I turn around is, oh, you're going to run for office someday.

34:04And like, then we go backstage and he's like, you should be the president. And then he like endorses me. But to answer the question, it's like, I would only want to do it if I was a the best person for the job. And if B, there was like someone like Kamala Harris, like running that like could have the potential to like ruin the United States. And I would have to like go and oppose them and yeah, save the country. But I don't really want to sign up for that workload if I don't have to, and if there's someone better to do it. And that's how I feel about it. I'm in the UK and I'm in London. Do you think Trump's doing a good job?