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25:08Yeah, I think also just want to say on the enterprise use case, so if I was a CEO or like it's the CEO of our large enterprise company, I wouldn't think in terms of, oh, how can we make our engineers more productive? I would think in terms of how can we get the most information about what we should build as quickly as possible into new products or into our existing products? That requires everyone in the company to be able to work in one place to change and edit their products and proposed new changes to it. It's hard for us, and for anyone in that matter, to build a product that does that tomorrow.

25:44It's better for us to start with the founders or building it from the ground up and then move it into the enterprise, the same experience into the enterprise. It also allows for this incredible democratization of ideas within companies. I am to lead the CPR duo Lingo for 20 products. And he actually said how two designers, not traditionally ones who actually come up with obviously building products from day one, created Giches in duo Lingo. and they did it with a common world of tools. I hope it was loveable. And that was actually their first iteration of it, which I thought was an amazing instantiation of this.

26:15Does that mean then that we lose the design process and the brainstorming process? Do we skip that and go straight to prototyping? Look, to date, what you've done is that you've taken an idea and that you went through many, many, many steps until it's like a fully fast growing product. I call that the product lifecycle. One part of it is right in the code, which is where AI now has made it much faster. There are many steps after that. There are steps before that, which is to mock it up, validate it internally, validate it with your users. What we've done so far is to take all the first step until this is validated, this is what we need to ship.

26:51And even external users on it into one few minutes or a few hours of building. So that's where we've seen the most maturity on our product. The step that come after is something we have to build out as fast as possible so that you don't need like in products to design engineering organization. It's one or one tool where anyone with the best ideas spend their most time. The steps after all the steps before. And one of the steps before is you see at the other end of the spectrum, Figma doing Figma make where they're like, hey, we'll always have the design process and then we'll move with you into the second phase of that product life cycle.

27:24Yeah. Into the build or prototype phase from design to prototype to what extent you worry about entry from that earlier standpoint. Entry from Figma. Yeah. Entry from Figma, given the fact that they own the design phase, just then moving to prototyping. I think humans are sometimes too obsessed with multi -tales being perfect, which makes you move much slower. And the way of doing it right now with the design, and what like one person does all the design very slowly, at a very detailed, is going to be replaced by AI, you talk much more high level, and you talk about your design philosophy and then the AI does the implementation of the design and then you as a human go out and get all the context from Do other people think this is looks good?

28:05Then give it all as feedback into the AI and then there's a very seamless opinion It's a way of taking it all the way to a product with all the marketing and growth Functions in built in the AI behind it as well as all their tooling you need to evolve High quality software product which comes like testing quality assurance and so and that's a new way of doing it and thinking you should be doing the sign with make and the figmatoos, it will slow you down too much. What happens to figma then? For some pixel perfect things, it's going to be amazing to continue to use figma. I don't know how the distribution will look like in terms of doing it with the more opinionated way, which is what our platform is becoming, versus how many companies want to continue to do it like you do it now in a tool like figma.

28:49Do you think your opinionated enough? R tool enables a lot of flexibility at the cost of some velocity on our product development, but I think it's a pretty good sweet spot. You can build with loveable and then any engineer can come in and edit and take over if they want to. I think, yes, we would be moving faster if we were even more opinionated about how things should be done. What do you not opinionated on that you would like to be in a dream world? In a dream world, we would be even more opinion about how you build an application and we would know what's the future of building applications with AI being such a core part of it.

29:27I don't think it's possible because how AI works and what's the best UX with AI for the products that are built with loveable changes so rapidly. At some point in the future, I'd love to be there. And what happens if we can be more opinionated is that you get the right level of detailed adjustments on how the AI works for your product, what are back -end flows and workflows, so dimensions work for your product. And now we have to be support a lot of different things, so it's more, you need to be really good at prompting right now. Do you think we will prompt in five years' time? Yes, I think so.

30:04of how you do it, like hyper -personalization takes care of a lot of detailed prompting that we have to do today. What does that mean? Prompting is basically providing context to an AI of what your goals are and how you want it to do something when you have great employees for you, right? They know everything about how you want it to work. So you just have to say, let's go to Stockholm and do a hackathon and then just magically becomes what you want it to be. Pretty much so. Honestly. I had an, I sent a picture to my mother beforehand hand and she's like, you had nothing to do with that. And I'm like, no, I did not.

30:38She's like, I know. Right. And you can't just say, tell the judge of the year something. Let's go to Stockholm, the hackathon is going to come up with something else than what you had in mind, right? And so you can either prompt it very, very detailed or you can make sure it knows how you think. And that's what we'll be evolving towards. We said the word opinion, ACES. Yeah. And we spoke about it with regards to the company. I did. I love your social media presence because you also opinionated in your social media presence. And I think it's, respectfully, also just quite blunt. And you've been opinionated in how you talk about competition, and specifically like a raplet of the world.

31:13How do you think about whether or not to engage in an opinionated stance against competition or not? I don't think so much about competition. The only thing that matters is that we make our product the best product. and we continue to deliver on our value promises to our customers. If there is something that happens, there was a competitor that found a lot of apps that have been poorly made and they said, oh, this is a vulnerability. And I spoke to a lot of security professionals. That wasn't really how you would normally announce vulnerability. So then I went in and bashed them as an outcome of that.

31:50I think that was a very reactive thing. And I think it was something I'd be happy to share in person to do that competitor, like, what a face -to -face. Well, it was it was in shink is Jason Lampkin, who's a friend of mine. I don't know if you sort of, but he was using raplet. And then a common memory exactly happened, but they basically had a massive security breach. Or they deleted all his database. So something bad happened and it was like code rad for them. And the takeaway for him was like just security on all of them. Yep. It's just nowhere near where it needs to be. And like it's wrong for raplet's bash lovable.

32:20It's wrong for lovable to bash raplet. all of you guys suck at security. Is that true? Yes, I think they... Yeah, like so let me say a different way. First of all, we talk about security, like company wide every week, like every day I hear something about security because we take it so seriously. There's so many different fronts to make it much more secure than if a human would do the application development. And that's why it's so important for us to be the best in the world at the security. So you're saying it's more secure than humans? Not yet. If you take your average developer who normally works in a large team where they have a lot of support and then that human goes out and builds an application They are going to create software that has security holes on average.

33:04When you build an application with Lavable It's going to tell you to go through a bunch of security reviews and the AI is going to do a bunch of security views And finally it's going to give you green light like we haven't found any security vulnerabilities If you compare those two, they have average, really average developer with lovable, lovable is going to have a lower chance of having vulnerability. And so we want them to put that to CIRP, we need to put that to CIRP, so that's a chance of vulnerability. It reminds me of self -driving. For the world's best driver, I'm sure you are better than self -driving.

33:34But for the majority, and for the majority who are tired, humans have their potential to hang over my malfunctioning in some way, actually wildly dangerous, and much, much better. Very much so. Yeah, I'm very proud of what the team done so far with this security and there's more to come. We've spoken about many different competitors in different ways from your Figma to your right place. If you move forward three years, what does the space look like then? I focus on what our product does and how you serve our customers best. And I don't really predict that if we get all the majority of the profit share in this market, that's amazing.

34:07This is spread out across different companies. That's also fine as long as we build a product that last for generations. And I do that by building the best products for our customers. And this is why brand is so important for you. That's how I think about it. Do you mind if devs go to lovable, get 60 % of the code from there and then find unit? I don't, like, from the get go two years ago, I've been decided that I'm going to be lovable for a world where humans don't write code anymore. And they were quickly moving there. We could very, very quickly move in there. Today, I don't mind at all. It should be flexible.

34:41Some humans have their way of doing things and I think it's good if you have like a ecosystem where you can use many many many different tools on on the product. Over time I think it will converge towards the very open unit of platform like the ones we're building towards and everyone's just look at what's the cost benefit of doing it with some other tool as well. Only using a lot of all is going to be the obvious most the high velocity and high quality driving choice. Today does AI make one extension is 10x. What does it make the 10x engine is 100x? It does both. It really does both. I have to force you to one.

35:19For the junior engineers, one x engineers, they often are bad at something, right? If they can bridge that gap, it takes them from zero to one, and to be able to do something they were not able to do before is like a 10x, they go to 10x region more. So if that's the case, then it's more valuable for them. If it's a 10x engineer working on something where you need a lot of, many years or experience to work on a system that a new junior engineer, completely doesn't understand. The one extension doesn't understand the system. Then the one x engineer is useless. So no AI is going to increase their velocity.

35:56Well, that's the 10x engineer is going to maybe go to 100 x engineer. How will the size of engineering teams change in the next five years? For the best companies, engineers will react as this translation layer. They will need to be more thinking more in terms of product being a product manager. I think there's higher elasticity on such engineers. So you might see many companies being like, oh, more engineers we can do even more, even faster. They are out talking to the customers and changing things with AI superfast. Do the skills required to be a good engineer and change with time? Yes, definitely.

36:32I think being a generalist becomes more and more important in everything with AI so that you can understand how things become together as a larger whole and that you use AI for the deep expertise that you don't need in the future as much. When you think about skills required too, there's a lot of people who are asking today, should I bother studying computer science if we're going to see love will be the last software that we have a need. How would you advise your little brother questioning whether to see us at university? University is not the best place to learn, it doesn't matter what you're studying.

37:09You should be out there and really understand how the world works in terms of how work translates to value creation and you don't learn that at university. So university is like a way to train your brain to learn new things and meet a lot of interesting people Would you encourage your children to go to university? So this is now 20 years in the future pretty much. Oh, it's hard to say To say something about 20 years in the future. I think it's a great experience. They've had in life Why not but it depends on what outcome you want to reach if you want to have a job that where you make the most money No, they shouldn't go to university.

37:45I think the opportunity cost of those years is very high And in the UK in particular we just get very drunk for three years and that's generally how it is and generally study generally subjects like geography and history. Honestly it is a little bit of a waste of time in which case you can utilize those years so much better given your stamina, your energy, the plastic deal your brain at that age which is why I highly advocate against it. I agree. If you just do a very very specialized job for those years maybe you'll become less of a generalist So there's a trade off there, of course, as a university, you're exposed to many different concepts which can be useful.

38:20We mentioned earlier AI and enterprise. When you look at the biggest enterprises today, they're not able for data, for permissioning, for security, to use AI. Are we going to see the biggest shift in incumbent power in the next 10 years? So if they're not enabled, there's someone else that can come in and be enabled. I think you see this in banking, for example, where bank is a software company, right? It's all about software systems. The old banks are moving much slower. Yes, there is going to be some companies that are like build ground up for an AI to change their systems and anyone who is exposed to customers understanding the legal requirements and so on can move much, much faster and creating a good customer experience.

39:07So yes, I imagine there are also some benefits of being having been around for a long time in the enterprise, in banking, there's a certain element of trust and so on. So I don't know how large the shift is going to be in across different segments of the enterprise market. Many companies will be get disrupted by cheaper, much, much better alternatives. And you said there are trust. How loyal do you think lovable users in customer saw? Do you think there's a high propensity to switch and an ease to switch? What do you think people fundamentally are loyal? It's 50 -50. Like some people are just super, super loyal to a brand.

39:38many people, I mean, if you do something that hurts your brand, they will switch and they're just out there looking for maximizing some kind of cost versus capability subjective. You can think about both of those groups simultaneously. Like if you have the best products with the best value, you're going to get everyone. We spoke about kind of people being threatened, large incumbents. What questions should large CEOs, business leaders be asking today about the future of AI and their companies and how they use it that they're not asking, do you think? One of the biggest bottlenecks for these companies is going to be some kind of change management for the humans in the organization.

40:18And I think they should be asking how have similar companies to ours change management very, very rapidly and get that conversation into the leadership room and then maybe across the entire organization. to start it and start it as examples of where change management has been very successful and then look at specifically which AI tools should be using. Should we be building our product on top of level 100 % because then everyone can collaborate there. Should we hire some new type of people that come in and upskill everyone? You said about speed. You said about talent earlier. Plenty did. I get really fed up with everyone saying that Europeans are about espresso and taking the summer and it's August in July, we're not going to work.

40:58And I advocate for a very aggressive work culture, which, you know, is 996. How do you feel about the importance of unwavering hard work over balance in the desire to win? I think over a 10 year period, I would advocate for some balance, but if over a two year period, if you really care about something, then you should make sure that you have, like, you get your exercise, you sleep in really, really well. Maybe something that you know relaxes you and then just work your ass off. That's what you should be doing. Do you agree that we've got from cognition who clearly said to winds up employees after hiring them or buying the company?

41:40It's six days a week. It's unwaveringly relentless and if you don't want to sign up for that, you can leave. In how we think about it is that you are here to have 10X impact over other people other companies. If you don't have a ton of impacts, so you do that by being very talented, being good at your job and being very focused. For some people, you need to put in a sheet ton of hours, but not for everyone. Am I seeing the impact? Am I seeing that if you would tell me you're living tomorrow, I will be like, no, you are such an important part of this company, you have to stay. And that's how I push performance and impact.

42:14Do you do the keep its test? Yeah. Has it made you change how you construct teams? Yeah, I think it always makes it clear to people that I need to always figure out, how can I have more impact? And then I think in terms of what does this organization look like? Is it optimally set up to success to succeed right now? Culture is such an important part. If you're just throwing people around too much, it hurts the culture and handle the ways of working. But doing this business exercise, saying, with this organization set up perfectly between, it definitely shapes how I build the organization. You mentioned Nicola, Raveli.

42:48He gave me the best answer, I think everyone culture. You know, I've done 3 ,000 shows. When culture comes up, it's like first principles thinking, I'm like, ah, fuck it, we'll edit this bit out. Always. But he said the best thing I've ever, he said I don't think about culture, I think about winning. The single biggest of term and a few in happiness is growth and development. And when you are winning, you're almost optimally positioned to grow and develop. And so if I create the conditions to win, you will grow and develop. And then supporting that, the other thing that people like to do is accumulate wealth as well as development.

43:17and you will accumulate that by winning because of your shape price increase. That's a good cut. That's a good way to think about it. And I think it's the same, which is like if we win, everyone will be happy. There's very few places where they're losing every day, day and day out and blissfully happen. It doesn't happen. What's not great about your culture today if you could change it? There's a certain personality type that has, I'll text a lot of initiative. they're very excited about new ideas and doing novel things. And as your company matures, that isn't, it's still an important ingredient, but you need the first priority to make what you have high quality, to continue to be high quality and improve the quality across everything you're doing.

44:02And I want us to be even more like mimifying, let's improve the quality, let's improve how we do things, move slow so that we can move really, really fast. You want to be more thoughtful around where you spend time where you don't? Yeah, so there's this cowboy versus farmer analog where farmers like optimizing things for the long term and I think we can do a bit more of that optimizing things for the long term and that's always strike the balance of doing You see you're in that phase of company build yet. I actually prefer the optimizer of the short term. I didn't know if you spent much time in China or with like Chinese development teams but they are unbelievable in their psychology around build.

44:44They optimize for the short term incessantly and then just like sticky tape the shit, sticky tape the shit, sticky tape the shit. And that is often how they're able to do so much so fast. If you have a super clear product market fate, you have a brand to defend. You cannot you cannot stick issue. You can do that in like sprints to move out of the way, but you really need to focus on like, are this pieces put to well together? It's been a lot of time on moving things around in the organization in your product so that it has high quality, maintains high quality, and you can build faster foam that's for foundation.

45:19Imagine if Apple, like, ah fuck, we deleted your cloud, sorry. Yep. So big of that. I said earlier about Europe and summer and not moving fast enough. You said before that it is better to build in Europe. I don't want this to be like an advert for Europe, but why do you think it's better to build in Europe? There are many good things. I was sure there are also good things things are better in the US for example I want to prove that you can build a generational product a generational company team from Europe and Part of it is on hard mode what parts are on hard mode? The hard mode is there that there's a where the network isn't as great in how many Individuals and companies that have worked on and have context for like all the different stages of building in an amazing multinational company.

46:09Completely agree. There are no Elena van is in Europe. Yeah. Maybe we'll get here here soon. That's hard mode. I think access to capital, people that will quickly give you a lot of distribution, happy with distribution and brand are really good. I think I said to capital is genuine problem. I think there's so much money in Europe that actually is a problem. For, as I said, it's not the bottleneck for us, though. Yeah. It's not. And you're going to start to see very soon. I'm sure you're probably already seeing it, but love will spin out. Where anyone who leaves loveable will get a term she's right away.

46:36100%. I think it's easier to get distribution to be on the center world stage in San Francisco, New York. But we've been able to pull that off from Stockholm, which is a good proof that you can do it from here. Why do you think you've been able to do it? I have my theory on why I think you've been successful. I think it's about storytelling and sharing everything we're doing at the company and empowering other people who are using loveable, telling their stories a bit of that. That's how we've been breaking through. We understand that you should be building in public and share what you're doing.

47:07Transparency is everything and people like to follow people and you've combined the two very well, which is your incredibly transparent around your ARR gross. Easy to be one, it's as good as it is, but you're incredibly transparent in a way that most people are on and then it's led by you in your voice and the two combinations of like cult of personality, you and Anton and then you and ARR gross is what really drives the success in that way. So that's kind of what's harder. What's better? Why should everyone build that company in Europe? I mean, we are the biggest talent magnet in Stockholm right now, which is amazing.

47:40It's much, much more difficult to be that in San Francisco or New York. We can really pick up all the underutilized talent and 10x their performance by being in a 10x better culture or ways of working and with amazing colleagues. So being able to be that, But the top one is the biggest one. There's a culture of humility and low ego and working really well together as a team that I think is stronger in Europe and this way of thinking in terms of efficiency in doing much more with less. You have inherently high chance in the valley. When you have a bad day, open AI or for your bigger package and it's like, I'll even do open AI.

48:22And that prevents the compounding of knowledge within teams which I think is so valuable. Yeah. Would loveable be less successful if it weren't a valley? I honestly don't know. I think it would be very successful regardless. Did you ever think about moving? Yes. When I was so much to start the company, everyone was of course telling me I should go to the SF. But we just kept building and we found some great people in Stockholm. So we kept building it from here. I'm happy how it turned out. That was a decision which you made and it worked out very well. What did you do in the love of old journey that was the benefit of hindsight and some experience?

48:59You wish you hadn't done. Look, when we started, we had this, this idea, the vision was very clear. The sequencing was not so clear in what we should be doing. We had this open source community that was kind of excited about the tool I made in a few months ago before we started the company, a GPT engineer. I think we should just like scrap that completely and be for hundreds of focus on what was the future look like in terms of building opening your browser, just building your product there, which is loveable. Why should you scrap that? You should be very, very focused on doing that. Is it not crucial for customer development, customer feedback?

49:31No, I don't think so. This is, there was of course a plan for how to incorporate it to and get more value together. Open source can be very useful for many businesses with the perspective of maximal focus. It was just a bad idea to do things that were like too tangentially related. So that's definitely one thing. We talk a lot about doing one thing, finding the bottleneck for the company, solving for that bottleneck is the best way to move really, really fast. What is the bottleneck that you will be discussing in the board tomorrow? I think the bottleneck for our long -term future is how we identify the technical product and like, engineers that will take the product to its next phase and innovate on many, many from at the same time.

50:15That's not a long term. If you think about the product today, it's giving our AI more capabilities that are really make it really polished user experience and give it more of those capabilities so that you can build out your full company, grow your business on top of a level. Then a bottleneck is for how we serve all this extreme amount of enterprise customers love and pull from them at the same time as we focus. A prior one is for the founders building I love it. Will lovable have an enterprise sales team and become an enterprise company. We will not become an enterprise company, but we will have an enterprise sales team.

50:53And what is that? I'm also nervous about it. That is just about talking and understanding customers, making sure they have the tools to get value from the products. That is how I see that part. And therefore, many enterprises like top down the enterprise sales team that hustle their ourselves to wine and dine CEOs. I don't that's not what we're going to do. What is the hardest role to hire for fee? So I think high engineering leaders is very difficult because it's so hard to predict how their press performance will translate to our organization. Have you made mistakes on hire? Yes. I've made some mistakes.

51:29What did you do? You wish you hadn't done on hire? I wish I was in the details when I did not delegate too much and I wish I was more proactive about like does this person want to reach the outcomes? Are they excited inherently more about the outcomes? I think something that's really interesting when you say about kind of leaders there is, I thought of your co -founder, who was in the video for the OpenAI release. And what struck me with that is, respectfully, it was one of the first times I've seen him front in Santa, not you. How do you think about exposure between the two of you, given you are very much the face of lovable?

52:03I'd love for Fabian to have more exposure, but I also want him to be focused on building the products. And that's what he focused on. It's much easier for people to relate to loveable if they see one person and keep seeing that one person today. That is me. I think it will continue to be me. What do you think is the biggest secret to a successful co -founding pair scaling at the speed of loveable scaling? The most important thing is just the raw horsepower and adaptability of the founders. If those are maxed out or those are high, you must be able to work together. If you have a sufficiently low ego, it's going to work.

52:43But if you really want to work extremely well together, I'll take an example which is far more than me. He's not very big on doing some weird new way of doing things. He's just simplified as much as possible. He's quite introvert and quiet until he's like has really shaped an opinion about what's the most important thing. and I'm on the sort of photo as a photo spectrum. And saying, Father, we should use this new crazy thing. And that's like polarity is actually very productive for both of us. When you think about that and then you think about your married and very happily married, when you think about successful marriages, what makes marriage so successful?

53:22I mean, for me, we can talk about anything. And that's extremely productive. and we can talk about turning every stone and challenging each other around anything. And we have a lot of humility. I think that's very valuable and very important. And the same is true in my marriage. I can... Humility. Humility has a lot of humility. Does success make marriage harder or easier? I mean, if you have zero hours to spend time with your partner, it makes it more difficult. I also look at 90 % of relationships often struggle and a lot of arguments is based on money, which is a very inevitable thing that's very hard, especially as cost of living goes up and for a lot of people, that then doesn't become a problem.

54:00Has it changed your marriage? Not so much. Very humble suites, aren't you? Yes, we are. I haven't changed my lifestyle since the love of blue specifics. Have you not? Maybe I think less about monetary decisions, but lifestyle is pretty much the same. What is the loveable product at the end of 2026? It's your perfect co -founder that you go to with your idea from the idea stage, but also all the way up to growing your business once you have customers and taking care of what Ilya and I are doing, optimizing the products for growth, optimizing the product and optimizing your communication with your customers, being through email or through different marketing channels.

54:41Do you eat the whole stack then? Yeah, it's one opinion to wait to do the entire product lifecycle. So you do everything from email marketing to SMS marketing and everything in between? Yes, and obviously this is what an enterprise also wants to build their products on. In the interim, they're using it for individuals, like people in teams, building out ideas that the enterprise companies should be doing, and they're doing that very, very, very productive. Is benchmarking for models bullshit? And evaluation is bullshit. I had Ed Wynn from Surge on the show. So you search, instead of the scale, I can padded it, but it's actually phenomenally successful.

55:14It's never raised to dollar, and it's a billion, two in revenue. It's unbelievable. And he was like, the benchmark of valuations of bullshit. I mean, they turn more and more bullshit over time. There's something called good -hard slow -offs, or when you start optimizing for a number, that number stops being a good measure for success, even if it was a great number for a measure of success previously. So that happens with all benchmarks over time, in some sense. What metric, within lovable, means less over time. So it means less if we start optimizing for it, right? And I guess one example where it means less, I guess, is how many people click the thumbs up button or how messages, because then we can, I don't know, say, say, found jokes or whatever, that for some reason, just triggers to be able to be more, that is just asking the human, click the button, I clicked the bottom button if you want to do it.

56:06And then we were hacking the metric right. So that's just one example. So we're gonna do a quick far -run. I'm gonna hit you with some incredibly unmethod questions and you can give me your thoughts, okay? What wildly help belief about AI? Do you think it's just very wrong? I think AI is smarter than humans and most people don't agree. And the reason is that this often times it's very, very stupid. But if you give it all the context or you have like, you build a purposeful system and for what they are stupid at, it's smarter than humans. Do you think we will see a plateauing, or do you think we will see a continuous exponential progression curve?

56:44I think we'll see plateauing on the things that we care about, which is a lot of new ones than being good at all the different things at once in the same model. But people are looking at GPT -5 now and saying, ah, we're hitting a stage where actually improvements are much more incremental. What you've seen so far is the sigmoid curves across many different dimensions at the same time. And we're going to see a plateauing. There are some sigmoid curves where I think we're still in this exponential phase. And those could be something like science and engineering and bioengineering, where AI is just going to continue to exponentially become extremely powerful and generate a lot of new medicines and new ways of treating health.

57:29Grog, Anthropic, Open AI. You can invest in Open AI at 380, Anthropic at 180, and Grog that I think gets 100. Which one do you invest in? And which one do you short? I invest in Grog, and probably short, Anthropic, because no, I was short of Open AI. Why would you buy that Grog and short Open AI? I think it's more of the slope on the Grog team. They're doing something which I respect a lot, which is to hire missionaries for the data curation part and they call it AI tutoring. I think the morale is much, much better in that team than both of the other teams. The morale is super high. Open AI is going through all these mess, right?

58:09And Tropic is probably a good morale as well. And they're growing faster on the enterprise side from what time you're in. Do you think Open AI wins the consumer in terms like National Ration Google and Anthropic wins the development in the enterprise? No, I think it's going to be, I don't know, there's going to be something else happening that we don't know what it is. I think that there will be a leading model that has not been created yet. Yes, from China. Do you worry about China? Chinese companies are not as good as understanding our users, so not very more worried. I do think there's like a 50 -50 chance they will have the best model we'll be using a Chinese model at some point.

58:46And that makes me a bit concerned because of the Chinese models at level. If we would, and I would look and have to look into the details and see what's bad about that. Do we give them data? we don't want to give them, but I mean we just want to do what's best for our customers. If that's going for a Chinese model and there's no negatives, yes. I completely agree. I think also just like the multitude of models coming out of China is just terrifying. When you look at every week, there's like four new ones and they're all as good as the last one. And the speed of distillation is just fucking insane.

59:15Are the models of the future open or closed? Which model wins? The best ones will always be closed, but if you want maximum flexibility and some kind of open ecosystem around it, it might be that open ones are the ones that most people choose. You can have dinner with anyone that are alive. Who do you have dinner with and what do you ask them? I think I would have dinner with Newton because he was like religious and super smart and just like talk about how he was in his age and why he's religious. He's like he even didn't have so many different things and he's a bit of a role model and he's dead so I can't meet him unless I say him now.

59:52Sorry, I can't help with that one. There's no intro there that would work. That's amazing. What AI company do not enough people pay attention to? Like I said, search for me is one, which is like scale AI, but fundamentally a much better business. That anyone knows it is ridiculous. Which company does no one pay attention to? The Deborah and Ship Pay attention to? I think the browser companies are interesting. So there is strawberry, who's .com, there's DIA and the complexity now. I'm very excited to see what happens to other of those companies. What do you think happens to complexity? So do you want to create a phone, I think, and I think that's a good that.

1:00:26Would you invest in the number 18 billion? 18 billion. It depends on what options I have. That's amazing. You laughed at just kind of sad at all. That's very funny. Who's been the single most instrumental person for lovable, not in the company? Who is Janja Taksal? Yeah, Janja, he ran sales and I see what Miro and he was in Dropbox at Ansegment and I get a lot of input and help from him. What's been the biggest? He's just my coach and I talk about how I think about things and then he asks me questions and tells me that you have to step up in this, like, build structure in this area. I love him.

1:01:05I had him on 20 sales and he was fantastic. What have you changed your mind on most, penultimate one? In the context of loveable, I thought we should be building an agent before the models were ready for it and because the models were starting to get optimized for an agentic system. What I realized is that no, no, no, you need to have a product that as many people as possible are using today so you can optimize not necessarily the AI, but this is optimized entire user experience. For those users and that's your data fly, will they want to use? Do you worry about job displacement at scale in a 10 -year time period?

1:01:39I worry about us humans globally not even understanding what we want to achieve on this planet. And if there's a lot of the rapid change with like white color workers being out of a job and humans we get super worried and concerned and scared, all hell is going to break loose. So that's what I'm worried about. But if we're a bit more thoughtful in terms of like, okay, if there will be insane amount of job displacement, this is kind of what we think we should do And this is what we want to achieve. This is how we make sure people can make some made up job in the interim. Then we would 100 % solve that.

1:02:128 out of the top 10 paying jobs today did not exist 15 years ago. I always think that's an interesting start. And we always overestimate job displacement with new technologies. Yeah. I think we're going to have maybe a shift away from some very glamorous jobs, which people would be get depressed by, like similarly or how we're being like an artist was like so fucking cool. But clearly you can't make anybody as hard as they're gonna see that again now for a lot of knowledge work I might be fine. My kids brain surgeons brain surgeons. I'm not no AI is gonna come for brain surgeons for years Maybe you know, have you seen the robust though the surgeon robots?

1:02:48They're pretty good I'm gonna be honest. You're not having people be like I'm gonna choose the robot version of that Is there anything else that concerns you with AI when you look forward humans? We're very very good at competing and And in some cases, it's amazing. Like that's how you get to the best companies. Also you get great technology. But in some cases, we're competing and then we go to war with each other or we start preparing for worse. And I think if we can be better at thinking big picture across superpowers, that would prevent the scenario where you have AI that can heal all people in the other nation in an instant.

1:03:28and like that being triggered without us actually wanting that to happen. Yeah, I'm concerned that us being so competitive in a world where things happen much faster, it's going to lead to some unexpected results that no one really wants. Which competitive do you most respect? I think OpenAI is pretty good at building products. I think this is because other foundation models have to be even better at building products and those are the ones we should think about for the future. But mainly focus on just what do our users want, how do we make them better products? But you must look across your figmas, your bolts, your routers, your hoodie, Prisparmy.

1:04:02I respect figmyums. Figmas. Yeah, because they're good at listening to their users and building a good product. And if they can translate that to the full product lifecycle, they're a very formidable competitor. Everything goes to plan. We hit all of our numbers and everything works. If that is the case, where then is lovable in 2030? Five years time. We're the mostly used interface for humans to AI. That's a very huge market. Dude, it's so much better doing an in -person. I've so enjoyed this. Thank you so much for agreeing to do it in -person, and I've loved it, man. That's fun. You're a hero, dude.

1:04:42Yes, I'm incredibly grateful to be a lovable investor, but I'm also really grateful to have found a fantastic new friend in Anton. Beyond the conversation today, he's been a phenomenal buddy to me. I'm so thrilled to be able to share this journey with him, water fantastic entrepreneur, and incredible to see the level bull effect, and how it has inspired a generation of young founders across Europe. If you want to watch the show, you can find it on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's 2 -0VC on YouTube. But before we leave you today, I love seeing the team come together to make this show happen.

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1:08:32That's Vanta .com forward slash 20VC. As always I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode where I'm recording from Greece. So this will be a fun one from holiday. Jason Lampkin, Rory O 'Dresskill, the favorite show of the week. It's gonna be a special one.