20VC: Startups Only Fail When Founders Stop Trying, Why the Two Weeks Following Our IPO Were the Worst of my Life & Why Tieing Your Identity to Your Company is the Most Dangerous Thing and How to Avoid It with Sami Inkinen, Co-Founder & CEO @ Virta Health

28:11So I, my recommendation to everyone is it's very high beta. I would probably advise against because then you have too many eggs in the same basket and if things go sideways, you can destroy your most important personal relationship in a process. So the cost of that I would argue is way too much for the joys and ups that you can have while creating something to get that. And one of the reasons I've come speak on behalf of my spouse, but one of the reasons she decided that, okay, time is up, six years was great, was the risks of damaging our relationship were just increasing. Can I ask you, did it enable you to be a better operator when she became a full -time parent because it meant that you were enabled in a way that you weren't before?

28:57She's absolutely amazing, but I think she would admit that We outzers too much of childcare during those first six years of the life of our kids So it did not fundamentally change how I've operated but our kids Probably took the short end of the stick for six years. Do you regret that? And it's what it is they're wonderful kids. I just did a one -on -one trip with the ADO to my native Finland Over the holiday weekend and I try to do my best, but yeah, I'll be more honest I think we both feel that having nannies raise your kids is not optimal. I get you, but I'm also going to be kind to you. You are running a 300 -person plus company at the time.

29:42What do you want? You can't have everything. And so, what would you have done differently with the benefit of hindsight? Not be as ambitious, not be such a good operator, but be there for the kids? I think... Yeah, it's tough to say. But I will say that if you have an amazing spouse and one of them has a more flexible schedule it's probably very helpful for the kids and for the relationship. You spoke a lot about your wife and the role that she's played. What are the secrets to a great marriage in your mind having had such a great relationship that's been such a support to you for many years? You test your spouse by drawing across the Pacific Ocean and see if you both their survive and you still want to be married after that.

30:23Why did you do this and just talk to me about it like what did you learn about each other from rowing across the Pacific Ocean together? Just for context so yeah in summer 2014 from Monterey, California we hopped into a robot, a 24 -foot roughly robot, unsupported, road across the Pacific Ocean, 2700 nautical miles to Hawaii, 45 days, three hours with your spouse all the time your your bathroom is a bucket then you throw it all bored. In terms of learnings with your spouse I honestly it was so many things happened. Absolutely life transforming in in many ways. I'll start with the biggest one. So we had no children going in.

31:04We are seven days into the role. We are only 18 hours a day. Basically non -stop trying to sleep five hours or so a day. We are seven days into the role. I tell my wife I said hey wow this is an amazing experience but I be wondering what is their truly to human experience? What is their truly to life? I honestly think there's nothing bigger and better than having a family, having children. I feel like we should have a family. She looks at me and says, I can't believe I've been thinking about the exact same thing for the last 24 hours. And we got married with this mutual understanding that maybe kids may be not life's too good at least at the time to mess it up with with children.

31:44So that was one thing like literally within a 24 hour window this feeling of as a human What is there to do? What's the do you want to have your name on a side of the hospital? Do you want to build three companies on support or whatever you want to do be this writer book? I just hit me all those stuff fine and good if you enjoy the process of creating those But it is so shallow so shallow having children is So that was one thing. We came out of the boat. In fact, we tried on the boat, but let's leave the details aside. No, that was a good one. That was going to be a question. Can you, can you shine on a rowing boat?

32:23You can, but it's not very hot. Let's put it this way. But yeah, so first child was born just about nine months after we landed in Hawaii. Just about nine months. The second thing is probably the sweetest moment in my life ever has been hopping off the boat on Waikiki Beach and giving a hug to my wife after 45 days and three hours of rowing and knowing that there's only one person in the world who knows exactly what we went through, the pain, the suffering, the fears, and that's my wife. Only one person in the world who knows exactly what we went through, she went through it and knowing she could get through that.

33:05That feeling and trust, that it was just pure sweetness to give her a hug and know that if we can get through that and we have that shared experience, you need quite an obstacle that two of us will crack and fall apart in the following decades. And so that was the second thing it was just like holy shit. This is an amazing experience we have and we both get through with. We've seen each other tired, stressed, anxious about the fall apart, fearful, and we could just come together and overcome all those obstacles. What was the biggest argument you had on the trip? 45 days, that is a long time, you're only see each other.

33:46What was the biggest argument? So, one of the things you have is a lot of time and you have a captive audience. You can't escape, you can't be like, come on, I'm angry, I'm going to walk that way, you walk that away and let's let's talk about this in a week. You're both captive audience. So we had a lot of time to fill the airwaves and come up with ideas. We talked about how do you come up with, you know, peace in Middle East. What would you do if you were president of this and that kind of law comes topics? And then one of the topics my lovely wife threw at me said, if you didn't marry me, which one of our friends would you marry?

34:19Oh no, Sami. Don't answer that question. As an engineer and a person driven by task completion, I was like, wonderful. That's a great question. Let me think. I stepped into the mind and I took the bite and there was a lot of material, lots of material for the conversations that followed on subsequent days and most of my wife was upset that I chose the person and that she had a way better recommendation. But anyway, Stelsta. Oh. Can I ask, was it hard to lose romanticism from it? You know, when you are peeing and pooing in a bucket, it's not the most elegant or graceful thing. Was that challenging to lose the, just slight element of mysteriousness?

35:07There's the practical element of it. It's just like kind of like gritty. Going back to authenticity and vulnerability. When you live through experiences like that, there's just something that brings you closer with the other person. Masks go away, literally and figuratively. This is the raw essence of the person. In the end, those types of experience actually are more positive than negative. Did you have moments when you thought, I can't do this. I cannot do this. Yes. Yeah, my wife pulled me out of it, actually. Could you take me to one of them? What happened and why did you get in that mindset?

35:44It is interesting. First 10 days was incredibly stormy. We were scared to death to flip the boat and cold and Pacific Ocean by the way. It's not dolphins and rainbows and sunshine. It's very cold. So it was very stormy, windy cold and then also the wind was pushing so hard that despite our best efforts, while we were making about 40 miles a day, we were to south so we left like northern California so towards Mexico. So anyways about a week of that in my engineering mind I was doing the math. I'm like we've done one mile a day and we have to get about two thousand miles west. So that means two thousand days so you know that's six to seven years.

36:33Like this is not going to be happening. It's six to seven years we had packed food for a hundred days. So I kind of lost the belief that this is possible and I started unraveling. I remember little things, brushing my teeth every day. I was like, I'm not gonna brush my teeth. Psychologically, I started to sort of unravel. I'm like, this mad doesn't end up and my wife was encouraging me. Well, we'll just keep grinding it. If it's a myler day, towards the right direction, it's a myler day. If it's two miles, it's a two miles. If I was alone, I probably would have quit at that point. We just keep going then we got lucky that the winds calmed down and we started to make 60 miles a day Procrast towards the right direction, but I probably would have given up how it mean just me I've had my challenges and my fair share and the time that we lost did this show You know the last seven years and when things are really shit and really hard I can't see a way out I actually think of David Goggins who who says one thing which is like in those times I asked myself one question which is can you take one more step?

37:36Yeah, startups and companies founded driven startups companies only fail when founders stop trying startups only fail When founders stop trying and I think that's 100 % true Obviously there is a point when Stopperness goes too far and you're literally wasting your lifetime and you literally just not gonna go anywhere. To know that, there's no formula, it's very idiosyncratic, and that is to challenge oftentimes. For people who have grit, people who have perseverance, for founders, like you cannot give up. But sometimes you have to give up. I don't think there's formula, but that sort of art and science oftentimes in a lot of, like you need grit, you need perseverance, we have a word it's Sisu in Finnish, like you just don't queue up, you just persevere.

38:30But that's not enough, sadly. But markets can kill you, shit GTM can kill you, lack of funding can kill you. There are many things other than a founder giving up that kills you, I've learned. Now there's a question of if you invest in great founders, they find the market, they find the product, which I don't agree with either. There's great founders who fuck up for several years doing something that they shouldn't do. Yeah, no, I cannot disagree with that, but the basic premise still is that as long as you breathe in, the company has money so it's not defaulting on in bankruptcy. There's always hope.

39:08Like, you should never give up, but there's obviously a point in time where you literally is just wasting your time or you're cutting trees in the wrong forest. But to know that objectively is very, very hard, because you always have these stories, oh, we were building a gaming company and then it turned into a slack. You got these stories, these anomalies, but obviously those could be very detrimental decisions in another context. Have you ever felt like I just don't want to do this anymore? Yeah, I'll give you two examples. Truly is an easy example to start briefly. So when we were in the process of going public, I realized that it started to feel like a job.

39:46And I could not feel a deeper connection to the course of the mission. In fact, I wasn't even sure what was the mission of the company because we had not really set the mission as founders. And I felt like the reasons for starting, which was let's build something in Silicon Valley, and if we get investors and millions of how cool would it be as an immigrant, to build a product, build a business, getting vast investors, make it successful. And we kind of had done that. We had thousand plus employees, whatever, 100 million plus revenues and tens of millions of people using it, I've got a lot of companies about go public and I'm like, we've done it, but it's like, job now.

40:24And I literally just was not excited to do it anymore. And so I decided to step away from my operational role. And obviously when the company goes public, do you sign up for a whole new set of investors and you sign up for the next decade? And I was like, I just cannot see it happening. And so that was one. And by the way, there was a lesson for myself, which I've really taken to heart with Virta Health, which is you better set a mission as a founder that motivates even you and it's a clear north star Why you're doing it? Which isn't just like oh, I'm excited today. That's a cool thing. So anyways That's one example practically.

41:01I just lost it So that was one the second example I just thought can I ask one thing? I like founders where they don't have a next chapter like if you ask me what I'm doing next I'm dead. I didn't mean that stupidly but I want 20 VCs to be the ongoing vehicle for the rest of my life. We will have new shows, new funds, new people, but 20, I am 20 VCs and it is me. Do you think I'm calm? And Jinko, I'll miss out on great founders if I have that approach. No, I actually absolutely agree. And people sometimes ask me, like, what do you think you're gonna do next, or what's your next? And truly, the honest answer is, that's ridiculous.

41:41That's like asking, who will you marry next? Who's the girlfriend you have on a hopper that you can marry next? I am married to my wonderful wife and I hope it lasts forever, statistically, unfortunately, statistics are against us, but like, we're gonna keep going as far as we go. The moment there's a plan B, like it's a lost cause. So I have no idea what I'm gonna do. No, that's not the point. I am this is it. This is so exciting. So no, I agree with you this idea that no, I have a list of three I'm just looking for someone to I would feel very dissatisfied with with my life with that. So I don't know I agree with you the question I have then is people go gosh that's terribly unhealthy to tie so much of your identity up in your company is it so tying your identity to your company it is a natural process It happens to almost all founders, but you have to Hedge against this.

42:38I feel very strongly about this. You have to hedge against it And here's how I do it. I think you want to consciously cultivate different identities in your brain Whether that's being a parent in my case, there's three things I like at a time being at the CEO of vertar I'm trying to reverse diabetes globally as a parent spiles kind of family person friends and then an athlete. So I have a very strong athlete identity in my mind. So I consciously cultivate different identities that are kind of non -currelated with my founder identity and I think it's very very important for everyone and here's why.

43:18When things are going up and through the right in the USA company it's sort of wonderful like I am the company I'm everything, but that never lasts forever. Never. If you don't have other identities, the moments of the one things really hit the wall, you are very likely to crumple and crack. And I'm not going to work here. I've been a founder, an upper and out 25 years. I haven't cracked and I have too many friends who've completely cracked mentally, emotionally, but one way to protect against cracking is that you have multiple identities. And here's the second reason you cultivate multiple identities, although fundamentally they are all stories but the stories work.

43:58The second reason is it's easier to take risks calculated risks and taking risks as a grow company founder is absolutely critical to succeed almost like every couple of years you need to bet the company on something to keep kind of winning and succeeding and it's very easy as you grow and get further to become more risk And I find that when you are sort of detached, but passionate about your course, it's easier to put everything on the line again. You're like, well, this is not everything. And so I find that cultivating multiple identities is very, very healthy for every single founder, because if you don't do that, it's very easy.

44:40You and your company, you are the thing. And that's all you have. And I think that's very dangerous, very dangerous. A speaking of dangerous, I am just intrigued. You said there about kind of friends around you who have burnt out, who have really struggled and cried. When you look at them, what are the commonalities amongst them that made them cry, do you think? And for founders listening, wanting to go, oh gosh, I don't want that to be me. What do you say to them? Rather than saying, what are the commonalities in those, I'll share what I have done, what I think is important. Usually people are lacking those things.

45:12So this is sort of three or for things that I very consciously invest in. One is foundation of health. Like I treat myself like an Olympic athlete, basically. And at this mind and body, to me, it's all biology. It's one of the same things. So this is a simple example. Like if you don't sleep enough, like, oh my god, everything unravels. Like you're so more likely to become depressed and cracking what not. So one of the fun things is I average between seven and eight hours for the course of a week. And sometimes there's, you know, like last night, I think was 6 .1 hours sometimes this crazy things happen travel is four hours But like I try to get to the 7 to 8 average over the course of a week Sometimes I even cancel morning meetings if I'm like too far and I need to like get 9 hours or something So sleep, but anyways, that's one of the things This one area foundation of hell and it's very easy to be 22 I'm like I'm hardcore.

46:03I'm just pulling all the miners or whatever and I do not do that So one is foundation of health to be able to be a founder 10 years 15 years 20 years like it is no way that's gonna work with all -nighters. And just to give you an example, if you're an Olympic athlete, you have Olympic games tomorrow, you are not gonna go party and pull an all -nighter night before. That would be absolute stupidity. If you're CEO, you're founder, you have to treat yourself like an Olympic athlete. That's one, foundation of health. Second one is what I already mentioned. I think cultivating multiple identities is so, so critical.

46:35The third one is having a trusted group of people who is not your spouse, where you can put your, let your short hair down and completely be vulnerable, authentic. To me, it's been the YPO's, the Young Proversials Organization. I'd be part of a forum for since 2008, 16 years. We meet for four hours. Everyone, in fact, I had my forum meeting yesterday. We talk about personal family business. So you have other CEOs who have no financial interest in anything in your company, not your VCs, not your board members. We can absolutely let your head down. That's where you can cry on other shoulder and be absolutely 100 % authentic and tell all the crap that's falling apart.

47:18Having that kind of a trusted group of people, particularly for men I think it's harder. It's an absolutely key thing. You need trusted and this isn't just the CEO body that you need at a conference and you kind of like, how's it going? High five awesome. No, it's like the raw shit that's going on in your life. You need that kind of group. Why do you think it's harder for men? I mean, treat, don't I? Well, I'm just starting my lovely wife will keep telling me that we women, we have way more sort of trusted friendships where we openly share. So I'm taking that as a fact from her. This is stereotypes, but I think men have more like casual friends where like we're good buddies but don't necessarily go full -air steeper and like honestly let me just tell you like I still cry because my dad never gave me whatever that pattern back or what what not so I don't know on average I think men have more buddies but it's not that authentic and vulnerable necessarily but having a group like a YPO forum is incredibly helpful.

48:20Final one before you do a quick for I am intrigued. You mentioned a little bit that you outsourced a lot parenting -wise in the first six years and now your wife of his full time. I'm intrigued just what does being a great father mean to you and we're nervous being so on and so addictive mindset wise that you would not be able to be a great operator when you have this incredible responsibility of children. I was not and by the way I read and I hear a lot about that well I'm not going to be such a great CEO. Wait a second, you really have to take a step back and ask, what is there to life and what am I here optimizing?

48:58And I was so convinced that the greatest thing I can experience as a human is to be a parent after our role that I never questioned the fact that we want to have kids and how that's going to affect other parts of life. Like I was so convinced that that is the right thing to do and then everything else will fall into place around it So I personally had no kind of and obviously it changes You know people create stories like well because I'm a parent. I'm actually a better leader. It's like maybe I am Maybe I'm worse. I honestly I don't care. It is very clear to me. I want to be a parent I wanted to have kids.

49:38I'm very grateful. I have two wonderful daughters Whatever the implications of that are on my other parts of life than be it Did your marriage change post -having kids? Personally, I've been married now since 14 years. I think having joined projects, whether that's sort of self -development, self -discovery, children, having joined projects, not just completely independent, having joined projects is incredibly helpful in a marriage. And children can be one of those where you kind of together, you're learning and stumbling, and I think it's wonderful. It's actually very, very helpful. That's not the only joint project we've had, obviously we've had an professional context and things sort of personal development and I think it's it's wonderful to have joint projects where you own a journey together.

50:26There is no destination, there's no arriving, it's like a lifelong journey, very helpful, positive thinking and relationship. Can I be really really harsh? You have fun, you have respect, you have honesty and you have sex, rank them wonderful. Fun, respect, honesty, sex. Wait, wait, rank them as in how important are they? In a relationship with your spouse? I remember it's sex, so you said them again. Honesty, fun, respect, honesty, sex. Actually, I think respect is probably the one, at least for me. Being in a relationship with someone that I could like truly I'm wow I respect this person. I'm learning from her that carries a Lot of things I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone where I'm like Judging in my mind like wow this person is smart enough or thoughtful and I'm not learning or wow this book I just maybe the honesty Depends how you define it.

51:29Maybe maybe that is the last one like honesty in the sense that you know You don't always say everything that comes to your mind. I would put fun, yeah, it's probably the second one. And I will, one of the reasons I fell in love with my wife is, first time we met, it's like, Thursday afternoon, we come off the car, about to go to our first day. And she starts dancing on a parking lot in San Francisco at like whatever 6 p .m. on a Thursday. Just for my, you know, finish kind of iceman, and I just look at it and I go, wait a second, wait a second. Life can be fun anytime, anywhere, and it was just incredible.

52:10I realized like, wow, I the story that I believed in, the life is a grind and serious and hard, and wow, that is a very, very limited way of looking at the world and your life. So I put fun very high up there and she has taught me so much about human experience and how amazing it can be. and not taking yourself too seriously and choosing the games you play very carefully and just making every every every moment fun. And then physical attraction is obviously it's very important but it doesn't really it doesn't really carry you over the case I would say if that's the only thing or the number one thing.

52:50I totally agree. I think you've maintained some very good brownie points with this interview by the way. So I think you've done a great job. You're in good shape. Listen, I want to move into a quick fire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. We're going to start with a tough one, which is what if you changed your mind on in the last 12 months? I am even less convinced. In fact, I'm absolutely convinced the world power doesn't exist. A free will doesn't exist. So this idea that we have sort of a separate entity that makes decisions that is not tied into the deterministic world.

53:31I'm very convinced that that is an illusion and it's a very, very, very believable illusion in our minds, but it is an illusion and become even more convinced that that is the case. And it brings humility to realize that every human being is worthy. And however they behave, it gives you humility to just think about its their wiring and circumstances that affect their decisions, not that there's a bad rider on the horse that somehow is inherently bad. You said before you treat your body like an athlete or an Olympian, What does the Sami Inc. and Diet look like? There's three things you don't, the Royal Supply Club, you don't talk about it in America.

54:19Politics, religion and diets if you want to make friends. Politics, religion, diet, some very hesitant to talk about it. Here's kind of how I eat. I eat what I'm hungry, so that's number one thing. Two, I try to eat as much as real food, and if you're wondering, he's something real food, it probably isn't because you know what real food is. And then a third one is outside of exercise, there's practically no sugar or processed carbohydrates. I eat when I'm hungry, not at set times. Mostly, whenever I can't, it's real food. And in thirdly, no sugar, and you don't really find sort of obvious carbohydrates in my diet.

54:54The best founders do not need that VCs. Agree or disagree. It's false and here's why. The best founders recognize that this bundle, what this is often dealer, is a bundle of three things. Capital advice and for better or worse on the board governance. Capital advice governance often is a bundle in the UConn unbundled it. The best founders consciously choose a bundle that is very helpful for them. Even if they are capable of doing anything and they want to make most out of it. Rather than to say, I'm just gonna take the money because you usually get the bundle for free So you you choose carefully.

55:35So so that's why I say false What are the biggest mistakes you see other founders make in fundraising? They make it to transactional by the way. I do a lot of angeling best in this it because you you really it's easier to get rid of your Coal founder than your BC and on the board so to transactional and I'll give you an example and this is sort of a silly example but as an angel investor, I don't know maybe Y -combinator somebody teaches people this like I get these emails like Oh, it's so loud to have you on a cap table So -and -so name you saw already there. There's no space absolutely, but I can just make space for you and But unfortunately I need the on's of by 4 p .m.

56:13Today and it's his own So maybe chatty pt. gives this template where you're famous name Sense of urgency and then this is a special thing for you ridiculously transactional and it turns me off so bad even if I wanted to help Devander and even if I wanted to help a company. So I think one is just making it too transactional. Can I ask you for some advice? I met this founder earlier this week. My partner was like, hey we've got to meet him. It's a super hot deal. First five minutes he's like, listen, love you, love 20 VC but we need to decide by the end of the week. And I'm like, great, thank you so much, Angle is basically what I'm thinking bluntly.

56:53It's a ten year relationship and I need to decide in two days having never met you. Am I right or do you say Harry as a founder, suck it up, you need to move fast and make decisions? True this summer in the middle, as a principal and a foundational principal, I do think that is a very long term relationship and drawing the line and like, okay, well, If that's what you want, like, sorry, we won't do it. And by the way, 2021 and maybe 2022 will be 2020, I think there will be a lot of people who are like, ah, we should have done some DD. And take the time to get to another conner and there were all some ethics and backgrounds and for backgrounds and so forth.

57:33Okay, Sammy, final one for you. 10 years time, where's Sammy Inkonen then and where's Versa then? And he's a good question 10 years. The full context, I think what we are trying to do, which is really addressing obesity and type 2 diabetes by actually making people healthy. Unlike wonderful companies like Nova Notice that are selling drugs to treat the symptoms of diabetes and obesity, I think this journey of helping potentially billion plus people restore their metabolic health by addressing obesity and diabetes, that's like a 30 plus year journey. Like I don't think this work is ever done. Hopefully we are a global company.

58:10Hopefully we are a counterbalance to a company like Nova Nordisk that's selling drugs to treat symptoms of these diseases. Hopefully we are known as the lifestyle treatment version of a Nova Nordisk that is addressing the root cause of type 2 diabetes and obesity. And so the globally known as a company that's doing good. I hopefully are there and hopefully I'm still playing some kind of a key role in the company's growth and success. That's kind of how I like it to be. Sami, you are a star. I love doing this. Thank you so much for joining me. I can't believe it's been seven years, but you've been amazing.

58:45Well, thank you, Harry. Very much enjoyed it and hopefully we can have the next one in less than seven years. I absolutely love that discussion with Sami. I want to say a huge thank you to him for being so open and honest with some of those answers. Some of the questions were really quite prying and he was just an incredible guest and I just loved doing that show and having that frank and honest conversation. If you want to see more of the show, you can check it out on YouTube by searching for 20VC, that's 20VC on YouTube. But before we leave you today, there's no shortage of helpful AI tools out there, but using the mean switching back and forth between yet another digital tool, what was supposed to simplify your workflow just made it way more complicated.

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1:01:21As always, I so appreciate all your support and stay tuned for an incredible episode with the OG of M &A Frank Wattrone coming on Friday.