20VC: Wix's Founder on What Wall St Gets Wrong About AI and Wix | Will Base44 Win the Vibe Coding Wars | The Truth About the Economics of Vibe-Coding | The Buyback Disaster: Lessons Learned with Avishai Abrahami

24:54I did, I could, I was like. You know, I think that, but it's very hard to time the stock market. Very hard to time the stock market. I think we had too much float and I think we had a lot of money in the bank and that was sitting there. We knew that we're not going to do a major acquisition because we are too focused on the new product coming and on base 44. So we cannot do both things. We cannot do another acquisition. So we had a billion and a half dollars that we kind of like, okay, it doesn't make sense for us just to hold it. And then we say, okay, let's, you know, let's use that opportunity where the stock is very low to buy it.

25:23Obviously, you know, the stock market jumped like this when we did it and then jumped and crashing down. All right, that's part of why. But I think the big question is now what happened in the last three months is where it's going to be in three years. And I hope that by that time it's proven to be a smart decision. I mean, if you want real bulls, then you buy back more now. Is that conversation like, is it like, no, no, no, we had that discussion. How do you reflect on future buybacks given what you know now? I think that buybacks are a fantastic tool for a company. and companies should use that, and I think they don't use it enough.

25:56I think the concept that companies, you know, always issue more and more, decrease their delusion by issuing more shares to employees and for other things, is something that should be balanced with buyback when the company can. I'm really in favor of that. I think that it's another way of giving a dividend to all of your stockholders. That's my opinion. Again, I'm not a professional, you know, stock market person, you know, that's not my profession. I'm a geek. I'm an engineer. I'm a bit of a marketeer. I'm a product guy. I'm worried about the level of stock-based compensation that we're seeing.

26:28It seems like we're normalizing insane levels, a la Snapchat, that make it very difficult for me as an investor to see the same attractiveness in terms of returns that I had before. How do you think about SBC being good to employees, but also not screwing investors? Well, I think you have a choice. I think that I would say that you want to get the best talent and you want to keep to maintain the best talent. And part of it is allowing them to because they build a company. They should be invested in the dream. You should give stocks to employees. That's my opinion. Right. I think that the fact that it's only in technology companies and it's not in many other companies, that's a different issue.

27:09Right. I would actually love to see that every fashion company give their cold team stock options, because I think that's way more fair. And maybe if the US government would do that, or the British government would actually have better people running the country and somehow finding that their compensation is related to their achievements. I think it's a really good mechanism. I think that when companies started making cash, so you collect cash, you have essentially a few options of what to do with this cash. Number one is acquisition. But you can only do so many acquisitions. and maintain the company.

27:40I mean, some people muster that. And I look at them and I admire them. I would be able to do that. But the majority of the companies didn't, right? And the majority of acquisition failed. So I think that that's a path that some companies should pursue. Every company probably should pursue a little bit. But so this is one thing you can do with your money. The other thing you can do with your money is do a buyback, which essentially is the same as give dividends. And then you balance your stock-based compensation. And I think the first thing you can do with your money is invest into hiring more engineers, maybe.

28:11But then your EBITDA get destroyed. So the stock market hates you. At this point, though, do you give a shit if the stock market hates you? One of my neighbours is a public company CEO. And he's like, honestly, dude. And he's one of the companies that have been hit. We haven't mentioned them. But he's like, honestly, dude, at this point, can't do any worse, can I? I'm sure we can, but it's hard, OK? Right. But again, I have a huge amount of respect for everybody who put money in wakes and bought stocks. And I do understand that my job is to do my best to create a wonderful company. I have a bigger obligation to my customers.

28:47That's another big obligation that I have. I don't think they are one against the other. I think I should balance both. And then for my employees. But I think that there's no stock market you can talk to. right? It's millions of people with different opinions. I don't know how to take that into consideration. I don't know how to even listen to that. I am friends with many of these enterprise SaaS company CEOs. We've mentioned some of them. And when I chat to them, all of them are like, oh my God, my talent is leaving. And, you know, their stocks is not worth what it was. And it's very difficult.

29:18Morale is down. How do you advise them on how to retain talent when you are in an environment as you are? I think it's a huge challenge. First of all, I think it's a magical solution. There's no magic here. Everybody's going to lose talent and we are losing talent. Everybody lost talent. Everybody will lose talent. And I think a lot of times it's a healthy thing for a company. As long as you don't compromise on who you keep and you make sure that the people that you allow to stay, okay, are really great people, you're going to find you have a lot of talent that you never noticed before. Okay. And that's going to refresh a lot of the organization.

29:51so it's not about how do you prevent people from leaving and it's more a thing about how you make sure the organization keep being an organization where the vast majority are top talents and and the fact that a lot of us get very well used to very spoiled by saying well you know we have people here working for 15 years that are always top talent and nobody ever leaves because our stock is it whatever that kind of made us spoil to the fact that that's not a natural thing now i do highly appreciate there's a lot of super smart people around me that i would be extremely sad if they leave and worried but saying that it's still i think that we got a bit spoiled on that and i think we need to remember that when we got those people they didn't have 15 years of experience working on on our problems and and they became and the reason that they are here later and they're super hard because they had talent to begin with and so we need to find a new generation actually bring a lot of those in so i think that's for me the challenge and saying all of that just to be clear.

30:49I'm working extremely hard to keep the top talent in the company, right? But that's life. How many people are in Wix today and how many are in Base 44? So Base 44 is around 400 people. Wow. Wix in total is about including about 3 ,500. You have to remember, we have a lot of small businesses. We need to support them. 3 ,500? Yes. Well, hello, Jeff Bezos. I'm so sorry. What are 3 ,500 people? Where's the majority of them in customer support and in customer support the biggest department wow are you using ai that must get taken to like zero pretty soon well i i i don't think ever it will be zero not quite zero but maybe 10 what 10 customer support yeah well we have a we are offering our services in 192 countries it's a bit tricky to speak for 10 people to do that we just have to remember it's a different scale of operation when it comes to that.

31:47Did you build your own customer support AI or do you use off-the-shelf providers? We're built on. It doesn't work. Abishai, this is what I don't get. You know, you see all these hyped customer support companies and I'm going to get in trouble here, but I'm too old to give a shit to you. So who cares? And everyone who I speak to, whether it's Airwallex or Klarna or Navan or Wix, you build your own. We actually try not to build our own. You know, we tried. We tested many different things. It doesn't work. I didn't get this market. Well, to be fair, you know, we're looking at young companies that built AI agents, right?

32:22And they proved something very quickly and hired a bunch of salespeople and trying to sell it. And then they're going to one of those companies you mentioned where they have super smart engineers that are really focused on that. They have more engineers supporting their support, right, than all of the HR on those companies that are trying to sell them, okay? And better engineers a lot of times. So, yes, it's not so... It would take time. I think in five years, it's going to be different. It's going to be different in five years. Again, dude, I have no idea. I'm a freaking podcaster in London. I'm not sure.

32:51I'm not sure. Like, to be fair, I don't know. But we tried. It didn't work. We tried again. It didn't work. We tried again. It didn't work. We kept working on our solution on the side. At some point, it was like, okay, that's enough. In three years' time, how big will the Wix team be then? Well, it's very hard to say, you know. I would love to say, well, Wix team in three years will be a thousand people in base 44 and a thousand people in Wix and everything else will be AI agents. I'm not so sure it is possible. We all give too much credit for AI and what it can do. And then when you start looking at the details, it's not really doing that well for a lot of the things.

33:31It's amazing. It's incredible. It's super powerful. But, and the but is pretty big. You need to be more American. Okay. All right. It's going to change everything. Everything's going to happen and whatever. Well, I'm going to be by myself in the office. Me and my, or most of the time, we're going to play PlayStation. All right. And this is... Now you're like Sam Altman, dude. You sell the dream. It's much, I've learned this. It's much easier in life to be Walt Disney. Tell me a story than it is Jerry Maguire. Show me the money. And the trouble with Israeli entrepreneurs, I find, is you're all like, show me the money.

34:04You're generally not that excitable. You're very realistic. You're very direct. I can tell you what I dream about here, but it's not about AI replacing my customer support. That's a nice thing to have. I think that we're going to be able to have a way for AI to do so with AI and with technology. Small businesses will be able to achieve so much more than they do today that it'll be more efficient, grow faster and way more profitable. And I think that is something that I'm sure will happen. So if you are in a gym, right, or you're a personal trainer, your ability to utilize AI to manage your business better, to sell additional products, and to reach out for new customers will be massively enhanced.

34:45And not in 10 years, not in five years, next year. And that will really have a massive effect on how you do things as a small business. But, dude, is that not a little bit paradoxical? And you're like, it'll have a massive effect next year. Great. I'm a venture capitalist. that means massive revenue growth and my companies go fast. Cool. But you just said AI is not that great and it doesn't actually do that much and like the questionability of value is there. No, no. I actually said, well, AI is really doing a lot of amazing things. But, and the but is very big, okay? Because we all tend to. How many times do you go to Charger PT and you said, I want to know what this thing in medicine is or I want to know what that is or tell me what is the chance?

35:24And I can tell you like I needed to test something and I wanted Charger PT to write me the safety protocol. I actually use Claude, not Charger PT. sorry some i got six gates okay and he said those are the gates you have to make sure to test every one of them so i started to ask why this one and we started to analyze and we worked on it from six it became one all of the other ones say oh okay question you know what you really caught me here i might have overstepped we'll emphasize that and then he writes well i'm removing it from something you must test to something that you might need in the future to take a look at and we all tend to do that right we all tend to do to have this massive trust into ai models And I think that's one of the things where the bad is, okay?

36:04But when you take an AI model and make it work really well for something, it can be incredible. I'll give you an example, like the most basic thing we all take for granted now. You can actually have a conversation with AI model, right? You can actually talk to you on the phone, talk to you on your computer. We couldn't do that five years ago, four years ago. I actually do that. I do that when I drive. I actually have a thing I want to do. I click on it, and I love the way it works in Chachapiti. So there is a big difference between if you take AI and try to do customer support for a very complicated company or to help you run your customer's order, your schedule.

36:37And if you build the right skill, the right tools for it, then it can become super efficient. And it can also call your customer and talk to them and do things. So, yes, you can have that massive extra layer. Do you find SMBs are excited or terrified by AI, both in the product and when you speak to them? There's a lot of skepticism. it's not always welcomed. Well, I didn't see that with SMBs, actually. I think that we see it more with everybody else. I think SMBs, when they wake up in the morning, they have so many issues of running their business. So they really want something to help them run their business better.

37:09As opposed to, if I would be in the university studying today, I would be terrified. That's the truth of AI, because, like, why am I learning this? Would it even exist in a year? Do you want to hear something wild? To change your university curriculum in the UK, So forgive me, I'm sure it's pretty similar around the world, but it takes three years to change the material that goes on or goes through a yearly program. Three years to change it. Imagine the changes that have happened in Claude. If you're doing computer science, like it's pre-ChatGPT almost. I think that actually, I don't know how long it takes here, but it takes time.

37:44It's challenging, I think. So if you were genuinely advising a 22-year-old, imagine a 22-year-old son of yours. I know you've got a newborn, so just skip a few years. What would you say to him, genuinely? Well, I would not be that concerned with LLAMs replacing every kind of white-collar jobs. That's not going to happen. It's not that smart. They keep making silly mistakes. It's not very good. Actually, it's not very good at reasoning. It's very good at collecting data and reframing it. I would be less afraid of that. However, if we get another two or three jumps in algorithms, right, then we all become a bit like monkeys, right?

38:20The cool question for me actually is that we're an investor in Lagora, which is an AI legal service. And the cool question for me is, do we see the same rate of improvement in adjacent functions to coding that we saw in coding? You know, Andre Kapathi went from doing 20 % of his coding work with coding tools to 80 % in six months. do we see that same jump in amount of legal work done by AI? I think it depends on a few things, right? And law might be a very good example for it, but I do believe that when it comes to laws, because laws, a bit like code, are mostly about textual context, and there's a tremendous amount, a huge amount, endless amount, way too much amount of legal written documents and cases.

39:07And so I think that this is one of the perfect places for it to be useful. But every time I see a doctor trying to do research by using LLMs, okay, I get horrified because that's the wrong tool. It will probably read, it will answer you, it's read somewhere on Reddit, okay, that somebody wrote. And for the LLM perspective, it's equivalent to the best research done on nature, right? There's no difference. It holds them all in this giant thing that it is. I would try to verify it somewhat. But most of the time, it doesn't read the research when it actually answers you, even if you use the highest level of it.

39:41So for legal stuff, I think that's really good. For a lot of other things, I really think that it's not the right algorithm. Do you buy that for the health? I'm just being honest here. I think OpenAI and ChatGPT is a lot better than the majority of doctors at this point, actually. And on top of that, health is now the second biggest usage of ChatGPT. Well, I'm invested in a company called K-Health. I don't know if you're familiar with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alon. Yeah, Alon. And they've proven that they diagnose better than most doctors. That's not the same as doing research, right? No, it's very different to doing research.

40:16Yeah. For that, absolutely. I think that if you have... Because most of the time you go to a doctor, they diagnose you have a flu, go home. They give you some pill and they tell you, take the pill and you get healthy in five days and you would get healthy without a pill in five days. So nobody knows. And so when it comes to the specific cases, yeah, I think that it makes sense that AI, when it comes to understanding the natural scenario that you go through, then yes, absolutely. So legal, the legal system will have a lot of those, but there's no research in legal. Well, what is research? But you do have research in medicine.

40:47I think when it comes to research, it's not a good tool. So it's a bit different. Do you think frontier models will really only be used for a very small use case or kind of small amount of use cases like science research, molecular biology, astrophysics, very, very difficult complex? Ari, they cannot do those things. You cannot do research on astrophysics with ALAM. They don't have the capacity for that. It's not what they do. They might answer you, but they don't run the models, the simulation, the background. You want to have the simulation background, you have to move from the deep mines, right?

41:22They do some of that, but not Chachipitin. Fine, but like model providers, you don't think they will do that in three years' time? Maybe, but then they have to connect different kind of models and different kind of architecture to their own names. It's not that trivial. I don't think it is, but I do think your isomorphic labs and your latent labs and your Chai Discovery, who specialize in very, very complex reasoning around... Oh yeah, but that's not, I agree, but that's not just, probably not just an LLM unless they just try. No, I totally agree with that. Yes, 100%. So those are completely immorals.

41:55Absolutely. Yes, you can. Obviously you did the protein folding, right? DeepMind did that. Amazing. An amazing achievement, of course. You come across as quite chilled in a nice way, like composed, calm. Have you always been like that? No, I'm half Italian. I'm south of Italy, I know. Does money make you more chilled? Well, I think that a Slavic wife... What makes you more chilled? Yeah, it makes you more resilient. What does it take to have a successful marriage? I'll tell you a story about my wife, which is one of the things that I think this is where I understood it's something different. I came home and she looks at me and she was like, listen, I have a terrible mood.

42:34You did nothing wrong. I'm going to the room to relax. You go play PlayStation. And I was like, wait, what? You have a terrible mood and it's not my fault? And she's like, yeah, you did nothing. It's not you. I need to relax a bit. You go play PlayStation. I was like, oh, my God. So I think that is the number one quality that I learned that for me, it works, right? So what's the number one quality? Distance? No, no, no. It's the fact that she is able to know that you don't load your emotion on somebody else. And for a cement, the number one thing you have to learn is to say, yes, I agree. Whatever.

43:07It doesn't matter what happened. Yes, you're right. How did making money change you as a leader, though? So I have a theory and the reason for this is I think richer investors and richer founders make better decisions. You're not operating from fear. You're not operating from losing homes, losing school fees, losing core pillars of life. I actually make much more rational decisions now. I'm not doing it for the money wholly. I tend to agree. I think that, you know, overall, when you're less afraid of things, you're more reasonable. But you're also a bit more lazy, right? I think a really interesting question is what does no one tell you about making money that you wish someone had told you?

43:41The way I look at it, okay, that's my personal opinion, is that money gives you one thing beyond everything else. And that's freedom, okay? Freedom from fear that you won't have food tomorrow. And then freedom also to know that you are here because you've chosen to be here. Because I can always, and you can always say, you know what, I want to be in Costa Rica on the beach. I want to be in Brazil, you know, dancing the carnival. or I can change completely what I'm doing and you have the ability to do it. You don't have to wake up every day in the morning, go to work that you don't like and be just to maintain and have food.

44:13I mean, that is the number one value you get from having enough money or a lot of money is that freedom and that knowledge that I'm here because I've chosen to be here. There's no other reason except that. I think that's for me at least is freedom to understand that if I'm here, I need to be fully committed to what I'm doing because I've chosen to be here. Nobody made me. There's nobody, no reason except me choosing to be the CEO of Wix, see the stock crashing like that, see other things happening, you know, all those things. I've chosen to be the middle of that. And that's, I think, is tremendous amount of power.

44:47What would you say to someone who wants to build resilience for a shitstorm that's about to come? Like you said that, dude, I mean, the pressure, the fucking headlines, the stock crashing, the this, the... It's just like, hit, hit, hit. What would you advise me or someone listening who wants to learn how to be resilient for the hits that are going to come? I think that the first thing to accept is that it will happen because we tend to think that, you know, if yesterday was easy, the day before it was easy, then tomorrow will be easy. That's not how life works, right? You never know when the next storm's coming from.

45:21You never know COVID arrives. You never know war arrives. Or you never know when the stock market crash. You never know. And it will happen, for sure, 100%. It will happen. We tend to believe, you know, reality is going like this. If you're here, it's going to go slowly up and slowly down. But it doesn't. It goes in an extreme speed at some places, right? So it will go like this and then boom and then boom. And this is how reality is. The worst thing that happens is probably going to be some random thing that happens on some random Wednesday. It's not something that you get a lot of warning for.

45:51In this sense, I think AI is the exception because it was an extreme thing that we've seen happening in slow motion, right? It took a few years. It didn't happen. Boom. The first thing is to accept that it will happen. And the second thing, and this is something I remember from Babylon 5. You remember that TV series? Yeah. And there was this time of flying to this conflict somewhere. And there was a lady on the captain on that ship was very nervous. And the guy that told her, why are you nervous? And she's like, you know, we're going there. I want to make sure. I said, listen, we're going to get there when we get there.

46:24And the weapons that we have are the weapons that we have. OK, and this is the most you can do. So you just have to think about it, that this is how it is. And this actually runs in my mind. It's not very smart, you know, not like a very inspiring sentence. But for me, it's like, am I doing the best that I can? That's a huge question, right? And I always try to make sure that my answer for that is yes. Everything else is what can I control? I cannot control more than what I can. So I try to do the best with what I can control. I know it's not a deep answer, but I don't think there is a deep answer here.

46:54The big question is, are you doing the best that you can in the situation that you are in? And if you are able to be honest with yourself and say, I think I am, then that's a lot of the pressure going away. The other thing is that I believe in meditation. I believe in neural and linguistic programming, NLP. And I did a lot of those. And that's really helpful. I totally agree. One of the things I always think to you is a mentor said to me, you're never wrong to do the right thing. And the right thing is often the hard thing. Oh, I agree with that 100%. Then I'll tell you the last thing I always remind myself is that you go around and you see happy people, right?

47:27A lot of these places, and they are not necessarily correlated with how much money they have or where they are or whatever. So I always remind myself, the happiest people I've ever seen on the planet are in Brazil. I can always move to Brazil. Are you surprised? It's not England. I mean, obviously, right? After 5 p.m., people in England become more happy. But they go to the pub, right? Dude, you haven't been to England in a while. We go to the pub at 3 p.m. Two hours more happy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, Finland is actually the happiest country in the world, which is astonishing to me when you look at the hours of light in Finland.

47:57But there you go. I'm guessing the one who wrote that never been to Brazil. But for me, my experience. So I always say, you know, worst case scenario, I can actually, all of the things matter to some degree. At the end of the day, I can always go to Brazil. Do you find it difficult to contact switch in your relationship? My biggest problem now in my relationship is like, I come home and I'm stressed. I've been bashed all day by whatever's happening. And then you come home and it's like, they want to talk about life and just like normal things. And you're like, you're still in your zone. Do you struggle with that?

48:30I used to, I used to, it was horrible. That was very hard for me. That was very, very hard for me. I remember that. I would come home and I have this massive list of things in my mind. And then I would be either not patient for my partner or not really attentive or whatever. and it was very hard for me. I learned with time, when I got older, that I stop most of it now and then I'll do it later. The thinking, and that's why I go to sleep at five, right? You time-bound your thinking and it allows you to turn off for the time being with your wife? Yes. So I'm just doing that and then I'm turning it back on and sometimes I write myself things that I need to think about in two hours.

49:09That's perfection because I cannot do that at all. Final one and then we'll do a quick fire. I care very much about being a great parent. I don't have kids yet, but I very much want to. You do have kids and you're a public company CEO and under a fuckload of pressure, let's just be honest. What advice would you have for me on how to be the best father that I can be? Well, kids don't care so much for the amount of time that you're with them, as much as they care for the quality in that time. So if you find yourself and give yourself, let's say, oh, no, I can be with them for a few hours every day or every few days, okay?

49:45Make sure that you are there and happy when you're there and have fun with them when you're there and not coming there because you force yourself and then you're on the phone and then you're fighting with everybody. Remember, it's more about how you're there than how often you're there or how long you're there. It goes back to what we said about being present, not stuck in your own head. Is it to say? I'm not sure it's so easy to do, but yes. Impossible to do. It's like the tying happiness to stock price. Honestly, I remember interviewing Vlad from Robin Hood. Okay. And I interviewed him when it was worth like 20 billion and interviewed him when it was worth 120 billion.

50:20I can tell you he was legitimately six times happier when it was worth 120 billion compared to when it was 20. It was a different fucking person. He looked different. He sounded different. He was different. I get it. Okay, we're going to do a quick fire. What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months? Actually, a bit on AI, I'll say it like that. I was very concerned, very concerned with how quickly we're going to find humans being replaced with AI. And I think I'm now looking at the same thing. I think it's going to take much longer than I anticipated. Why? Because, you know, I remember that, you know, a year ago, we would hear a lot of mass speaking about, He's waiting for AGI because AGI, you can have conversation with it about how to solve big problems in physics and how to do a lot of things and everything.

51:09And now everybody's talking about, well, you know, we kind of achieve AGI, but he still cannot do those big questions, right? So he kind of changed the definition to fit something that doesn't do the critical things. And the more I know about AI, the more I see the frontier more, the more I see things, I think they're tremendous, as I said, but I don't think they're going to replace us that quickly. Yeah, I think you're being far too nice. I had a picture of me and my mother on the beach for my holiday last week. And I said, like, remove the people from the background to like Gemini. Dude, they changed my mother's face.

51:37They put a different woman in there. I was like, what? I think solving that might happen faster than you think. Which competitor do you most respect and why them? So it's not direct. I think that the one company I really, really appreciate, Figma. I think they're brilliant product, understanding of their market. And when I look at it, I'm just like, I really admire some of the things, the quality they can bring into that. So I really like them. Like, really, in terms of not just respect, it's almost admiration of some of the things you can do. People are almost religious about Figma. I know very little products that are like that.

52:13My designers, they love it. They go crazy about it. They'll do their gross series list on Figma, okay? They'll do everything they can on Figma just because they love using it so much. And that takes massive skill from Figma to do it. What's your single biggest concern today? It's always the same. I think that execution. I think we have good plans and good ideas. And I think the biggest challenge is always from execution. How do we get a team to be super efficient? How do we get them to be more ambitious? I think that it's to go for a bigger goal. I think those kind of things. You said that Base44 is 400 people today.

52:50How many people is it in two years' time? Oh, that's one of the things that it's very hard to predict because it depends how well AI does and how many moles they do. I'm a huge believer in Base44, okay? I'm a huge believer in Base44. I'm a huge believer in what Wix does. I hope that Base44, and I see the way it scales, I would imagine probably 800 to 1 ,000, and the majority of them would actually be engineers, right? So I think that is another thing. Final one for you, my friend. What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? I think there's a lot of really kind things that people did for me.

53:21And when I started, I see how often people that were way ahead of me in this business, right, would take time to sit with me and to talk to me about things that, mistakes they made, and give me advice and stick with me about other things. I think that's extremely kind because this is not about giving you money. It's about giving you the most precious currency those people had, right, which is time. And when you see that, I think, and advice, it's amazing that they did. 12 months time, who will have a higher market cap your Monday? It's kind of like asking me to compete between which kid of mine I like more.

53:59Your eldest. So my eldest is Wakes, right? But I've been lucky to be involved in a few amazing products, Wakes, Monday and Base 44. And I think I got this real opportunity to see this thing happening three times. And I think that's an amazing experience. And I do believe that all three company all three products right have tremendous market potential and and potential to be helpful for many different people and so hard for me to choose i think iran in a way are really incredible ceos probably better than me so maybe i'll bet on them or me no actually but then maori is a great ceo i don't know it's very complicated avishai it's been fantastic to have you on the show thank you so much for being so open for being so uh wise in your love family parental ceo advice It's been fantastic, man.

54:51All right, cheers, man. Thank you so much for having me. Love what you're doing.

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