Graeme Souness: he’s scared of the tea lady (with Vittorio Angelone) | Part one

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1:13Graeme Souness:and carrying all the groceries in one trip. Try Quaker Protein instant oatmeal, granola and bars. Great taste and a good source of protein. Quaker, bring out the good. Hello, Shotters. Before we begin, there are still a few tickets remaining for the Upshots live tour. London and Dublin have sold out. Birmingham has literally four tickets left. Grab them while you can. And then there's a few more in Manchester and Glasgow, but we are down to the last seats. So grab your tickets if you want to come and see me, Zach and JP previewing the World Cup and spilling stories too hot for the podcast. I've put the link in the show notes.

1:55Graeme Souness:In his glory years, Graham Souness was a bona fide hunk who dated Miss World, won three European Cups and took meetings with his knob out. Which makes you wonder, why is he such a moody bastard? The Liverpool legend decked his own captain, scalped his friend with a pickaxe and was hounded out of Scotland by an irate tea lady. From gun-wielding strikers to love triangles with George Best, this is his story. Welcome back to the Upshot. I am Jack. Hello, Zach. Hi, Jack. We are rejoined by Vittorio Angeloni. Welcome back. Nice to be here. A pleasure to be at the Upshot Towers. Do you still call it Upshot Towers?

2:33Still Upshot Towers. Nice. Same towers. Same towers. Nothing's changed. It's a big year. All the way back.

2:38Graeme Souness:it was about a year ago that you were on for george best was that a year ago and i just called him gay the whole time yeah you did that was the real thrust of it wasn't it was the it was the beauty queen chasing shaggers are closeted gays yeah because you uh you only go after women who like society have like in a competition deemed to be attractive therefore you're like well that'll be the one that'll prove that i'm a man there's actually some crossovers with graham sooners this This is what I'm excited about. Maybe Graham Sooner's also gay. I mean, looking at him in his 80s pomp, the perm, the moustache, the bodybuilding competition, not bodybuilding, beauty contests.

3:18Graeme Souness:Yeah. Well, he was vain. He's vain. He's not dead. He's a vain guy. Yeah, dead to me. He's off Sky Sports. Yeah, exactly. He's no longer. Because they found out he was gay. Might as well not exist. Off Sky Sports and out the closet. but he's like he's like a he was like the first not maybe the first but an early pretty boy yeah which is sort of mad you look at him now and also like a pretty boy like Scottish pretty boy is like a real rarity you know like Scottish players you're used to like sort of the look of like Lee Griffiths these types of players who somehow has like 19 kids apparently oh really?

3:53yeah Lee Griffiths is one of these guys where it's just like if you weren't a footballer you would be just the most in prison yeah

3:58Graeme Souness:is it Lee Griffiths? no I'm getting mixed up with who's the one who's who's uh his parents had a pub that was like Anthony Stokes mixed up with his what was the story with Anthony Stokes he had what was it his parents had a house that was being no they owned a pub where they were hiding weapons for like the provision some weapons were found that sounds like a Celtic player yeah the parents were never prosecuted they've always denied any involvement in Celtic football club yeah and the pub literally has a massive sign of the queen crossed out and it says banned from this pub on the front of the pub.

4:34I don't think she was trying to get in.

4:36Graeme Souness:I know, but either way, it's irrelevant. She's banned. Anthony Stokes is the one he had two police chases in one month as well. We'll do an episode on Anthony Stokes. But Graham Sooners, what I find out is he's got the vanity pretty boy thing, and then he's sort of hard as nails, aggressive. Yeah, an enforcer on the pitch type thing. Which is, like, I don't think we've... There's nobody that's done that. since you know there's no pretty boy enforcers anymore yeah yeah you're one or the other even in modern football you sort of think of like this the cdms it's like cambiasso it's like mascherano like these are ugly cunts ugly balding bastards yeah are there any yeah it's it's a weird duel like gattuso is probably the closest to like a pretty sort of italian yeah yeah he yeah he's a bit of a like begbie from train spotting vibe i don't know if i'm now the closeted gay thing's just in my head but it's a bit comb your hair in the mirror and then and then punch someone for no reason yeah and glass and people just for the crack because they call i didn't realize his nickname is champagne charlie to the point that all his liverpool teammates call him charlie that's what graham soon as is that's how he signs texts before we start so if you if you haven't followed vittorio already vittorio at vittorio angeloni on instagram and elsewhere i'll put it in the show notes for the surely in the title i would think yeah just with at we'll start with that uh and check out his podcast mike and vittori's guide to parenting yeah we recommend it before it's very funny um and i'm on tour around the uk and ireland so buy tickets for that it starts in january and tickets are on sale get them zach do you want to take us back yeah let's go to the very start graham sunez was born in 1953 in edinburgh and as you can imagine he played a lot of football growing up and he was he was pretty talented ended up being called up for the scotland school boys but already by this point he had a bit of an attitude so he ends up quitting the scotland school boys team when they don't let him wear number four that's so mad because in the 60s like everybody just wore the number of their position yeah given it yeah it wasn't in the era of like picking your number or whatever so he's an absolute pioneer of being What number was he wearing?

6:47Graeme Souness:I think they made him wear like number 11. I actually think it was like number 11 or something like that. The thing is, it's going to be between 1 and 11. They're not going to have absolutely like Ronaldinho and AC Milan them. Like they are going to have given him a completely fine number. Why is 4 important? Even back then was 4. It's 4 like defensive. I guess it's like Stephen Gerrard, isn't it? He was number 4 for England. But he didn't want to be number 4 for England. Did he not? Because he was 8 for Liverpool. it was because he argued over I think four is quite iconic if you're more defensive minded but I mean you play for the school boys come on just put a shirt on and get out there yeah so he's dropped he puts his foot down he quits the team refuses to play for the school boys because they won't give him number four when he's growing up he also has a bit of a habit of getting into various different scrapes he's one of these kids who's constantly in A &E with broken bones there's one story where he nearly scalps his friend with a pickaxe so I don't know exactly where they got a pickaxe from who amongst us in our wreckage schoolboy days hasn't nearly scalped someone with a pickaxe so yeah they're throwing this pickaxe around the garden and he chucks it at his mate and yeah hits him in the head takes a chunk out of his forehead it's actually just lucky he didn't kill him or fully scalped him he's also obviously growing soon as he grows older he's known for being very vain and that's also apparent when he's a kid as well.

8:15Graeme Souness:So he goes on a family holiday with a friend of his to Butlins and there's a beauty contest going on, Body Beautiful. And Graham enters. I'm not sure whether it's Carlos Tevez, Julian Lescott, look-alike friend enters as well. He's past that. Body Beautiful, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful personality. Hang on. There's a children's Body Beautiful competition? I think, yeah. Under nines category. I don't know This was the 60s It's also a beauty pageant at Butlins Like is there It's real sort of tallest dwarf stuff But they love that shit Because Butlins had Nobbly knees contests Really? Which feels more fitting Yeah that's a bit more fun Or whatever But it's just like The most beautiful month In the Midlands Beautiful That feels like a Nazi camp Yeah Yeah Yeah Which Butlins was a magnet for I'm sure so is that where that's where the vanity really starts yeah perhaps it's that beautiful body that catches the eyes of Spurs who swoop for him when he's 15 so he's brought into the youth team and does pretty well they win the FA Youth Cup in his first season he scores in the final but he's denied a medal because he's sent off for punching someone in the same game see this is class like there is just something brilliant about scoring in the final It's Zidane in the World Cup.

9:40Yeah, but winning. But he won. But denied the medal anyway. Yeah. Man. I don't feel like you just deny medals on taste grounds. Yeah, it seems harsh, really, to do that. That is really harsh, isn't it? Especially for a kid.

9:51Graeme Souness:That's not happening in the real FA Cup, is it? It should. I mean, there's so few punches nowadays. It's just like, we need more punches. Game's gone. Game's gone. Take your shirt off to celebrate second yellow. No medal. So, yeah, he's like this quite precocious youngster. Apparently, he's always knocking on the manager's door. Bill Nicholson, the legendary Spurs manager, demanding game time. And they're like, look, you're a bit young, mate. And in the end, he grows so annoyed by this, he flees back to Scotland. He's a bit homesick as well. Doesn't really like London. He's knocking on the manager's door with a pickaxe.

10:21Graeme Souness:How about now? And he actually, while he's back in Scotland, he gets a taste of real life because he gets a job as a removals man just to see maybe, do I want football or have I got something else going on? Do I want to play professional football or be a removals man? go at Wembley get sciatica in the shelving unit he actually says he does it and he gives up because he has to move a piano up three stories and at that point he's like in like an Edinburgh tournament building I mean I could have warned him freezing cold on a cobbled street yeah being a removals man sucks bro go back to Spurs maybe a will play for Tottenham Hotspur so he flees back there and then they send him out on loan to Montreal it's a bit exotic that's crazy for that like what in the 70s.

11:08Graeme Souness:Yeah, so this is that North American soccer league thing. That's really out to pasture. It's quite experimental. This is not the one where they were doing like indoor five-a-side football. I don't think so, but I think it is the one where instead of penalty shoe tails, you would drive off the halfway line. Bring it back. Yeah. Bring it back. I'm into it. And Graham, he's there. He's not exactly living in luxury. There's five of them living in a one-bed flat, all these youngsters. And it's like uni lifestyle. He says he put a stone on in six months just eating burgers. Maple syrup and beers. Anyway, he comes back to Tottenham, still can't get back in the team.

11:37Graeme Souness:They don't want this, this fat kid. Beautiful bodies behind him. He's full of maple syrup. Half Scottish, half Canadian accent. Yuck, what have we created? There's only one place for that. Middlesbrough. Off he goes, age 19. And after arriving at Middlesbrough, he moves into digs with this woman called Phoebe, who, Phoebe sounds absolutely lovely. She's a bit of a sort of stand-in mum for Graham. When he goes out partying, he'll come home and she's left a glass of milk and a sandwich beside his bed. Terrible post-booze drink. What, milk? A glass of milk. Something nice and rich. That is so Middlesbrough.

12:13Just like, ugh. Like you would throw up immediately. I don't like milk with a savoury sandwich either.

12:18Graeme Souness:Yeah, I feel like that is quite, when would this be? 70s, I guess, 80s? I feel like milk back then had a good name. Yeah, milk's been cancelled. It was the Milk Cup, wasn't it? The League Cup. I was just milk. I was the sponsor, milk. But then there's, the Milk Cup is like a big youth football tournament in Northern Ireland. Still? Yeah, like I saw Federico Makeda play there, like on the North Coast. And it's like loads of players have come and played there. And it's crazy because at the end, it's sponsored by like the milk lobby or whatever. And when the, like the trophy, like raising thing at the end of the final, they just fucking chuck milk all over them.

12:56Well, like champagne style. It's disgusting. But with the carton. Yeah, it's disgusting. They literally throw milk all over the place. It's grim.

13:07Graeme Souness:That's wild. Yeah, yeah, mad. Good to see Big Dairy still, guys. Hoofs. That's our dream for our podcast, to be sponsored by the Milk Lobby. Yeah, the Milk. That's when you know you've got a big podcast, when you're not being sponsored by brands, you're sponsored by the... Lobbies. Like off-menu are sponsored by Tender Stem Broccoli. Are they? Not a fucking specific brand of Tender Stem Broccoli. Tender Stem Broccoli. Tender Stem is a brand, isn't it? It's got that little R next to it. Is it? on the label tender stem is a trademark oh so what everyone fucker we're all in the pocket of big yeah fuck off it's almost a scam i think you can maybe get tender stem that isn't called tender stem if you get what i mean i don't actually know that it's only from the tender stem region of france

13:50Graeme Souness:special method it's just sparkling asparagus anyway back in middlesburg graham from the fish paste sandwich this is a fun Because anytime I say a joke, I'm like, oh, that was funny. And then there's a part of me that's like, I really took us off track there. If you don't, we'll just get back to the story. We're trying to get a story. Moving on from 10 to 10 broccoli. It's a politician laughing in an interview and they're going, but there is actually a story. I'm not spending any time on it. So Graham, so he's living with Phoebe, but at some point he's like, look, I'm almost 20 now. it's about time that I move into my own place.

14:32Graeme Souness:And he briefly does exactly that, gets his own flat, but he moves in there and he doesn't last long. You know, he's looking around this empty bare apartment, opens the fridge. There's no tender stem broccoli, not a pint of milk in sight. And he decides to run straight back to Phoebe. I read that he literally spent 10 minutes in the new flat, as in genuine, and then left, unless he was exaggerating. How did you not conceptualize what you need to conceptualize in 10 minutes? before you got there. But didn't George Best do similar? He had a lady in digs because he stole her son's girlfriend. Wow.

15:06Graeme Souness:He claims. That's quite it. I mean, at the time, I'm sure it hurt, but it aged well. Yeah, George Best, yeah. So yeah, Graham ends up staying with her for the duration of his spell at Middlesbrough, which gets off to a bit of a slow start, largely because he's pretty porky when he gets back from Montreal and he's living off glass of milk and sandwiches and slices of cake, boozing a lot as well. but then Jack Charlton is appointed as Middlesbrough manager and he sort of helps Graham to turn it around a bit, but he gave him this really stern talking to about being a professional, but as well as being quite a disciplinarian with Graham Jack also used to take the piss out of him for his grooming regime so Graham later said I used to turn up with the shampoo, the conditioner and the hair dryer, and Jack would laugh at that I'd be sitting in the bath after games and Jack would say, shampoo?

15:56Graeme Souness:I've never washed my hair in my life isn't this famously bald as Jack Charlton looking at we've got a picture here of Jack Charlton he's a very strange I always think it's mad when you like hear stuff about older footballers and they talk about like sitting in the bath after the game like this big fucking massive bath together yeah yeah yeah it's like why was that the chosen where else have you seen those baths they're massive it's basically it's like a jacuzzi isn't it yeah Yeah, without just a still jacuzzi. And no bubbles. Can you imagine all of you are just like muddy, being running around.

16:34Graeme Souness:Just sitting in a pond? Have you seen the Ian Rush picture? I don't want to take us too off track here, but it's like Kenny Dalglish has just been thrown fully clothed in the bath. They've obviously just won. And Ian Rush is in the background with one of the weirdest patterns of hair you'll ever see. Like his leg is fully covered in hair. It's like a suspender. And then the rest of his body's hairless. And he looks like a prisoner of war in Japan or something. Oh my God. So thin. yeah wow it's probably this era yeah 1990 yeah he took that picture lee miller um shout out to world war ii photography yeah

17:09Graeme Souness:despite jack charlton's questionable barnet he manages to get middlesbrough promoted to the top flight in his first season uh stays there until 1977 when he moves on and that very summer without jack charlton's discipline graham starts to have a few blips so burrow go off to australia for this pre-season tour and they've got a layover in hong kong with changing flight and you know he's got a few hours to kill so he heads off for a little drink where he in his words meets a young lady and ends up missing his connecting fly onto australia so you know he wakes up the following day missed his flight he's like fuck how am i gonna get there he's got to sort out his own travel if he hasn't got any money um so turns up at the airport like gotta try and find a solution and luckily he'd been boozing the night before with some british airway staff so he rocks up at the gate and they somehow managed to sneak him onto the plane that is the most pre-9-11 that does not happen anymore uh what so does he just sneak on this plane yeah he manages to get on the plane goes off to the tour in australia and by this point he's a bit of a star for Middlesbrough really and six months later in January 1978 Liverpool come calling they're European champions at this point and they sign Graeme Zunas for 350 grand it's actually the same 78 have they won is that when they've won like multiple European titles yeah they've won it the season before yeah sure yeah and I think we'll come on to it no spoilers but yeah they signed Kenny Dalgleish in the same window so yeah this is peak Liverpool.

18:47Graeme Souness:Like they've gone, they've gone from Bill Shankly, I can't remember who they've had in the middle, but now it's Bob Paisley. This is like, Liverpool just, they keep hiring managers and they keep having all this glory. This is their golden era. So he arrives at this famous club, quickly cements himself in the side and in his first season, 78, they reach the European Cup final. Do you think that's because he looks so scouse? Because it's the putt. He looks like a racist caricature of a scouse man. Basically the perm. in a shell suit. They just saw him playing for Burrows like that man that man is gone.

19:21Graeme Souness:I was googling this because this is the era where they all look like that. Terry McDermott as well and apparently six of them including Sooners used to all go to the same hairdresser and get perms together. They all sat in a line with the thing on their hair. Yes I think they're basically they are the origin of the... I had the same thought and I was googling it and apparently it's them and these two brothers in Brookside. Did you ever see Brookside? No. It was a soap set in Liverpool. Same acres as Hollyoaks. a bit more frumpy and there were two Scouse brothers who had the perm the moustache the shell suit and Harry Enfield popularised it anyway they reached the European Cup final 1978 it's at Wembley it's he's in he's in dreamland and he's even bagged himself a beauty queen girlfriend Miss World no less hard to brag about your Butlins beauty like best beautiful boy win to Miss World yeah I was actually the most handsome child at Butlins I bet he did though yeah it was actually harder to win the thing is we've just got so much in common that's why we get on so well yeah it's Mary Stavin for fans of the beauty pageant Swedish she's actually she's in the crowd as they win and she joins them at the after party at a Swiss cottage hotel here they both are posing with the trophy he looks like sort of yeah Ross Gallery you know those old episodes of Friends yeah Ross Gallery at prom when he gets stood up by Rachel Green.

20:46And she has got the hair of King Charles I.

20:49Graeme Souness:She's got beer-like syphilis hair. Ringlets. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess that was just the fashion, wasn't it? That's the hottest lady in the world right there. Yeah, exactly. Although her head is about to be turned. So QPR star Stan Bowles and Don Shanks. We're looking at a picture of them. A couple of likely lads. They've got very meat and potatoes names, but I think they were actually quite like trendy playboy George Bestie characters and they spot this picture in the paper of Graham Souness and Mary Stavin dating and Bowles bets Shanks his pal a hundred quid that he can't steal her and so that is mad isn't it I mean imagine one of your mates said that like they got a picture of somebody in the paper I'm like I bet you a hundred pounds I can steal that man I guess they know I guess they know Sooness a bit Yeah yeah yeah Do you think You're doing it to a comedian Yeah I guess It's quite a lot of But do you think This is again Like closeted gay thing Just like They're all like fighting I'll steal Miss World From her Yeah it's like a mixture Of like closeted gay stuff But also like Just the real Like Objectification To the max Of like I'm going to steal That object that he owns Yeah That's mine That'll piss him off Won't it What To be fair To be fair, he does steal her.

22:10Graeme Souness:He wins the bet. Shanks. And they actually date for a while. Surely Graham Souders is a bigger name than Don Shanks at that point. Yeah, but is he as charming? Maybe not. I'd probably argue yes. He keeps banging on about his butt lens beauty contest. Yeah, yeah. I would argue Graham Souders probably was more charming. He's a more successful footballer. Yeah, but not necessarily more charming, you know? It's time to think Mary Staven isn't into them for their football. And also at this time, successful football does not mean lots of money. Yeah. So it's sort of much of a much in a side of the direction.

22:38true you're just going for the cheekiest chappy

22:40Graeme Souness:you're just having fun aren't you well actually she ends up cheating on shanks with george best what a woman what a generational run yeah she's really yeah that's a serious run don shanks aged as well as the others best and shanks have this like very famous punch up in a hotel i think we might have talked about it on our on our best episode but actually graham soonest is not that bothered which i was surprised by i thought this is sort of thing he would react terribly to what you have to remember is that he's gay yeah good point so he's relieved if anything he doesn't have to have sex with them.

23:10Graeme Souness:Have a fucking break. Or possibly it's because he's moved on to another woman, the lovely Danielle Wilson, who is the daughter of a wealthy Merseyside family. She's loaded. She's a trust fund kid, which is quite appealing. Yeah, yeah. This time, like we say, he's not getting paid absolutely loads. Yeah, I think footballer money was like, it was all right. Good, but it's not like retirement. No, no, no. Whereas she's got the nest egg coming. So good, so good, so good. Spring styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now, and they're up to 60 % off. Stock up and save on Rag & Bone, Madewell, Vince, All Saints, and more of your favorites.

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