Muhammad Ali: below the belt (part two) | with Frazer Clarke

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1:38Welcome back to the Upshot two-parter on the greatest of all time. It's Muhammad Ali. Zach's still here. I'm still here. Fraser's still here. Still here, guys. It's the greatest podcast of all time. Where we left off at the end of part one, the world heavyweight champion, Muhammad Ali, had just lost everything for refusing to serve in the Vietnam War. He's been branded a draft dodger. The FBI are on his tail. He's meant to be going to jail and his title and boxing license have been taken away from him. Will he lose his freedom as well? We're about to find out. So this is a unique situation for any major sports figure to be in, right?

2:18where you've been sent to jail at the peak of your powers. For anyone, I think. Yeah. To lose your belt as well. He doesn't actually go to jail in the next four years. He avoids prison basically by appealing. So initially he pays the bail and then he fights a long appeal. He's fighting it in every court level. And he keeps losing, we'll see, over the next four or five years. He keeps higher and higher courts basically saying, no, you dodged the draft, you're going to jail.

2:47Frazer Clarke:Were other people going through similar things or is it because he was such a high profile figure they were trying to make an example? I think there were other people who are claiming conscientious object and when being told no you can't claim it but obviously he's by miles. Yeah but it just feels like it's always felt like because he was Muhammad Ali obviously they were making an example of him and the rest of the world thinks oh my god we better go and fight because if they're trying to make Muhammad Ali go we've got to go. and also just is there not a sense that like politically they want him to shut the fuck up about like about civil rights and about Vietnam being wrong so it's a bit of a like or do they just want the world heavyweight champion on their side you're like fighting I don't know it would be useful yeah he'd be a good person to have on the front line yeah have you ever ever considered it Usyk was serving wasn't he yeah he was amazing I think during the conflict he was there or thereabouts yeah that's amazing anyway so obviously Ali's unable to box.

3:45He's had his license taken away, but he becomes a huge figure for the civil rights movement, especially as the public opinion is turning against the war. So by the late 60s, it's already a majority of people who think America made a mistake by getting into the war. They want an end to the draft. These things are becoming more and more prominent. And of course, on the civil rights front as well, in 1968, Martin Luther King shot, Robert Kennedy shot, like these are big watershed moments where Muhammad Ali increasingly looks like the guy who is, to use the words of the time, on the right side of history.

4:15And he's basically a big civil rights figure. He's speaking on campuses, touring around. This is also when he meets his second wife, Belinda Boyd, 1967. And she's way more bought into the nation of Islam than Sonji Roy is. So it's a more obvious fit. And they marry quite quickly and have four children. I'm pleased to report I have got some details on Bedromantics, courtesy of Belinda. So she will later describe him as exceptionally well-equipped as a lover. But she says he's a selfish shagger. Pays absolutely no attention to getting her off at all. Which I think is just men in the 1960s, isn't it?

4:53I wasn't there.

4:54Frazer Clarke:I mean, I haven't shagged any men in the 1960s, to be honest. But I'll take your word for it. That's one for the bucket list. Yeah, apparently it's all very selfish. And within three years of their marriage, he's pretty bored from his exile from boxing. you know like he's he's enjoying his status as a speaker he's got a lot of money problems because he's paying these huge legal bills and he's not earning from his prize fights uh but also he's just just looking for kicks a bit bored and this is where muhammad ali begins cheating for apparently the first time which i think i believe this is the first time he's been married apart from sonji and that was quite a quick one so we'll take his word for it um so he starts off by having an affair with his ex-wife, Sonji.

5:38And then, you know, it starts becoming just any woman around him. And pretty soon, Belinda starts catching him with prostitutes, catches him on one night stands. There's the money problems. Yeah. Yeah, exactly that one. We already broke. That'll do it for you. Apparently, what he's also doing is, he's doing these speeches in auditoriums on campuses. And he'll often then just like disappear into one of the nooks of these auditoriums and be snogging some college student. Feels kind of quaint, doesn't it? in the nooks and crannies of the buildings some old church just behind the bike standing on stage just eyeing one of the students yeah literally yeah can really picture the scene as well she's got that like hairband that students have back there then it gets really mental the shagging because he starts roping Belinda in to arranging his affairs so he starts like making her book hotel rooms for him and his mistresses and he'll say stuff to her like don't disturb me for the next hour because I'm going to be in there shagging.

6:34I don't want to hear you.

6:36Frazer Clarke:This one's a real hippie, so we can get some incense. Do you mind getting her flowers? I just think it'd be nice for her. It's pretty weird. He basically makes her kind of complicit and she's still quite young. She tolerates it, basically hoping that he's just going to get bored of it, which is probably a mistake. But she does have reason to think that he might move on because pretty soon he's allowed back in the ring. So the year now, we're in 1970. August 1970. And Ali and his management team persuade the state of Georgia to grant him a boxing license. So his Supreme Court case is still going on, his appeal basically over his jail term.

7:15And while most states have taken away his boxing license, they managed to persuade Georgia. And so he can fight again. He fights Jerry Quarry, who's not a huge name, but it's a fight. And it is the hottest ticket in town in Atlanta. So loads of celebrity supporters come out for the fight. Curtis Mayfield plays the national anthem. Diana Ross is ringside and the Reverend Jesse Jackson is in the dressing room. It's pretty star studded. Also a notorious New York city drug trafficker has bought 500 tickets and apparently brings some of the nation's most infamous dealers, pimps and hustlers. So this is a pretty interesting crowd.

7:51And for the first time in his career, he walks out and most of the crowd are chanting his name Ali Ali Ali so he's gone in this period of absence from villain to icon which is pretty amazing like it's easy to forget the fact that he was this like heel figure people were rooting against him yeah I mean like the celebrity thing you look at any big fight now and I suppose since the beginning of time like it was just ringside at a big fight it's just a thing like you were worried about the Usyk Dabar fight I think in the changing rooms there's a random person with Gordon Ramsay you know you know you know you just like they're just but there's so you do literally go to these fights and it's just celebrities everywhere especially ringside and there's going back to these times the film American Gangster Frank Lucas he was actually Empire came down because he wore this big mink coat to I think it was a Sugar Ray Robinson fight and that is where the FBI actually it all the downfall all started because he wore this mink coat which was like thousands and thousands of dollars and everyone's thinking who's this guy there's like full of celebrities and they just had this random guy Frank Lucas in the mink coat and there's pictures of it and that's where the downfall started yeah because in the movie afterwards he burns it burns the coat yeah but is it a boxing match well because his whole thing was flying under the radar no one knows what you look like and then you're in fucking I guess celebrities had always been a bit drawn to it though it's just boxing yeah and this weekend was last weekend gone well recently was Canelo versus Crawford like biggest fight of recent years and it's just in between rounds they go to celebrities like you just get everyone now you get obviously 50 Cent Justin Bieber anyway Mark Wahlberg Jason Statham was front row Turkey Al-Sheikh who's obviously the head of boxing now but basically it's an invite only to that ringside bit and just the list of A-listers and do you think it's like does it prey on your mind a bit before the fight like are you thinking fucking hell Gordon Ramsey's here or are you not that arsed I mean no it doesn't really play on your mind but I've definitely been in a fight and been in the clinch and looked at oh Marcus Rashford like it's

10:30Frazer Clarke:it's happened you know what I mean is that is that distracting or no really it's surreal that's so surreal Gordon Ramsay yeah that get a picture afterwards you know I'll remember to say hi to him that's amazing that actually reminds me I've watched this I feel like I've talked about this before I was watching this programme where they just like it was Gordon Ramsay on drugs. He like lost a friend to drugs. So he went on these police busts and I think they're in like Mexico or something and they bust this guy. They like wake him up in the middle of the night, bash his door down, drag him out. He's in cuffs and this guy's like being led to the cop car.

11:05All these cops were guns, obviously like contemplating like what's becoming in my life. And then just as he's being cuffed, he looks around and he just goes, Gordon Ramsay? What are you doing here? It's Gordon Ramsay's on the drugs bust at the first pretty long fight. It must be so surreal. Yeah.

11:22Frazer Clarke:Am I tripping? Yeah, exactly. Am I dreaming? But yeah, this is the point where Muhammad Ali has, in the minds of like your ordinary punter, has become the guy you root for. I guess a lot of it is because he stood up against Vietnam and stood up for civil rights. And it's such an amazing underdog story. The champ is back. So yeah, he wins that fight and he wins his next one, which means that he's emerged as the top contender to fight heavyweight champion Joe Frazier. So this is one of the big fights of his career. It's at Madison Square Garden in New York. It's branded the fight of the century.

12:00Two undefeated boxers. Each of them has a legitimate claim to be heavyweight champion, which is very rare. And there's a typically bad tempered buildup. Ali says, Frazier's too ugly to be champ. Frazier's too dumb to be champ. Got a clip here of them clashing. I want to make one prediction. I'm not calling around. I predict that when I meet Joe Frazier, this will be like a good amateur fighting a real professional. This will be like a kid out of the Olympics meeting the fastest heavyweight champion that ever lived. This will be no contest. So this is a huge event. 300 million people are watching worldwide.

12:39There's a$5 million purse, which is massive for the time. I mean, today's money, that is maybe 100 mil now. So the pressure could not be bigger on Muhammad Ali. This is his chance to win back his title. Luckily, he's got an excellent way of unwinding before a fight. You know, you mentioned before, Fraser, that you would, you know, watch some inspirational videos, have a Nando's with your team, like do some stretches. But Muhammad Ali does it in his own way. And hours before the fight, on the day of it, Belinda, his wife, goes looking for him and tracks him down to a seedy-looking hotel. she knocks on his door and Muhammad Ali opens the door naked and Belinda forces her way into the room where she finds another woman hiding in his shower also naked apparently the woman yells out it's not what you think which is a bit stretching that old chestnut yeah I'm a mindset coach uh yeah and it turns out that she's she's actually a prostitute he's literally gone down to the street in Manhattan and found a prostitute and brought her in.

13:44Which is, yeah, I mean, that's how he prepared. I get, the fight days, they do drag. They are boring. Like, you know, like, obviously, you wake up, you're doing your breakfast, all the media work is done and you're just waiting until the night time as well. So you've got a full day in your own thoughts. The natural thing to do is to just go down to the street and find a prostitute. and just kill some time. Yeah, because it's always going to be late in the day, right? You've got a whole build up. Do you then try and sleep during the day again? Yeah, you try and get some rest but then you don't want to get too much rest so you have to do a little walk and then everyone's different.

14:24I don't like to be, I like to be on my own a lot but then I have like a couple of friends, a couple of people I'm around, don't like being around too many people but the sex thing, obviously you must have heard like the general consensus is that no sex before a fight like for weeks and weeks. Yeah. Like, you know, a bit of an old wives tale. I don't personally believe in it. But then again, even though I don't believe in it, I don't think on the day I'd be in the right mind frame to go and find a prostitute.

14:51Frazer Clarke:David Hay had quite a good quote about it, didn't he? It was something, it was like, a lion's at its most dangerous when it's hungry and it's horny. Yeah, but pretty much. That's what it says. Tesosterone is supposed to drop a lot, which obviously takes you into fighting. You're a bit lethargic and stuff. So if you ever see anyone performing you think he's a bit lethargic. You don't shag on five-a-side days, do you? No, I don't shag most days. I've got to preserve my life for. Didn't David Hayes say, yeah, I'll be like a lion. If I'm hungry, I'll bang you and eat you. Oh, that was it, yeah. Is that what lions do?

15:25To get sales. Anyway, so that's how Ali does it. Counterintuitive, but seems to work for him. Doesn't work for Belinda, who's absolutely furious. And there's like a tray of room service in this room because they obviously had a post-shag meal. and Belinda picks up a steak knife and starts threatening them. She's like, I'm going to fucking kill you. Eventually, Muhammad Ali, sweet talker that he is, calms her down and Belinda storms out, which is pretty lucky because tough way to go, getting stabbed on the day of your biggest fight. She's actually a black belt in karate as well, Belinda. So he was really playing with fire.

15:59Anyway, after all that preparation, he's got to get in the ring with the heavyweight champion in the biggest fight of his life. And in the audience, it's another star-studded event. Frank Sinatra, Barbara Streisand, Colonel Sanders, the KFC founders there.

16:14Frazer Clarke:I only discovered yesterday that Colonel Sanders is a real person. Yeah, I thought he was just the face off the, well, it's a change logo now. Back in the day, it was like the head with Santa. Yeah, he's a real guy though, I looked him up. Ronald McDonald's a real guy as well. Really? And the Hamburglar. Wait, Ronald McDonald, where's Ronald McDonald? Where have you spoke about Ronald McDonald before? Yeah, we have, you're right. he's somewhere Jamie what was it Jamie Carragher Jamie Carragher yeah yeah that was it Liverpool Christmas party your knowledge of upshot law is seriously strong he's been about it was the Christmas party the Liverpool Christmas party where they they were like strippers and there was someone was dressed up as Ronald McDonald and was like shaggy a stripper on the stage still in the costume Michael Owen's in the corner he gets stunned Michael Owen was in the corner just reading the book or something like that I remember someone dressed as Ronald McDonald's got to be the last look you want to shag the fucking McDonald's mascot.

17:10Maybe Colonel Sanders is up there actually. Probably rather shag the Colonel. Also Hugh Hefner's there. Diana Ross, as always, can't keep her away from the fights. Miles Davis and the Apollo 14 astronauts. That's quite cool. Someone for everyone there in that list. And the star-studded crowd of astronauts and fried chicken icons are not disappointed. It's a hell of a fight. They go toe-to-toe. So is this right, Fraser, that Ali kind of drops his usual ducking and weaving and gets stuck into like a bit of a slugfest? Well, yeah, which is the complete wrong tactics because Joe Fraser is just relentless fire.

17:49Unbelievable fire. He's very small for heavyweight. Uses something called the cross guard, which usual boxer is like this. Joe Fraser is known for this and a lot of bobbing and weaving and ducking. and this is the this is the first fight right this is the one Ali loses this one yeah and it's one of the best shots that you'll see you know we've this is another one you know when you're showing boxers you know what to do you go if you go back to the old footage you definitely show him this clip of Muhammad Ali getting knocked out by Joe Fraser's beautiful shot yeah so he goes down but apparently he gets back up his jaw yeah he knocks him down it's 15th round and everyone's astonished that he gets back up in three because it looks like he's gone but he loses by unanimous decision straight after so it's his first professional defeat a crushing blow after all he's come back from you really think that must have been seriously painful I blame the prostitutes yeah exactly I blame the prostitutes

18:49Frazer Clarke:it wasn't the best preparation preparation yeah you guys are saying he would have won it without we'll never know will we we'll never know it's one of the great what ifs of sports what if What if Colonel Sanders hadn't been there putting him off? He also, to be fair, it's not the only distraction in the build-up to the fire. It wasn't just the fact that he was sleeping with women and getting threatened with steak knives on the day off. So he also, he'd set up his training camp in Pennsylvania, in this place, Deer Lake, that becomes his permanent training base. And while he's there, Ali says he had several encounters with UFOs.

19:23Mainly, he said he'd be running early in the morning on these long runs, and they would just hover over the road. He said in total in his life, he saw a UFO 16 times. Wow. So you've just been hanging out with those Apollo 14 astronauts. That's who you want in the dressing room after to swap notes with. Yeah. Anyway, so Dear Lake apparently is where it's all happening, all these UFO sightings. So maybe that would also affect you. But anyway, while the Martians keep their distance and just hover above the road, Ollie does have another big encounter with earthly authorities in 1971 because his case finally goes to the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, and they overturn his conviction for dodging the draft.

20:03So he's an innocent man. He won't be going to jail. He's already fighting again, but still, this is a massive load

20:08Frazer Clarke:off his shoulders. Yeah, so it is. It kind of brings us into the early 70s, which were a bit of a strange period for Ali's career in general. He's obviously one of the most famous people in the country, in the world by this point. He becomes good friends with Elvis Presley. We see all these celebs ringside for his fights. 1972 he wins six fights but then in 1973 he comes up against Ken Norton who again isn't a massive name but he ends up beating Muhammad Ali Ali breaks his jaw during the fight really really good fighter again one of them guys that never never rose to superstardom but unbelievable fighter like he's been involved in some of the best heavyweight fights of all time Ken Norton that's what he's known for Ken Norton Larry Holmes is one of the one of the best heavyweight fights of all time just 15 rounds two big men slugging it out I think at this time like I say heavyweight boxing sometimes was known for being a bit could be deemed boring at times two guys like a bit slow these two big athletes that literally went at it for 15 rounds it's a brutal fight brutal fight really good and what's going on with Ali then so is it just just literally best man one or is he like not at his best I think I think his better days were definitely behind him every boxer has like the slip you know where eventually father time cannot be cannot be defeated you know in boxing and even though he's still good I think you're definitely not the same person all the stuff that's going on in his life the personal life stuff the jail the prostitutes it just seems to start having an effect I think well there was actually one other extenuating circumstance for that fight because again two hours before that fight Belinda claims that she found Ali in bed with two more escorts so two hours two hours before and again like you saw what happened last time like surely just just let's let's take things a bit more seriously let's just change something you know he may be at different that morning but no we'll keep the prostitute he went to two escorts this time that was the problem not enough just want to make sure Colonel Sanders is not in the front right and then but everything else we'll keep the same but then by elimination we'll work out what it is but anyway it does throw him off again he loses to Ken Norton this is pretty deep in his real shagging era if you could call it an era because it's pretty constant but 1972 he fathers a child with this woman called Patricia Harvell again not his wife not his partner but then in 1973 he begins dating 16 year old Wanda Bolton and father's another daughter called kalia with her so kalia later has done interviews and said that wanda her mother and her grandmother were living at deer lake at ali's training camp alongside his wife belinda and her children which to be honest if you you're saying that you go away to this training camp where you're you know locked away just just focus your fight if you've got your wife and your kid's grandmother and your mistress and your mistress's kid and her grandmother the mistress's grandmother's a pretty rogue one slightly take away from the trainer I think starting to see why he's not got a perfect record during this era I just love the image of them all seeing a UFO hovering over the training camp as well him and the granny I think that maybe that is just his excuse for fuck you for like two days he's like yeah sorry it's just just UFOs yeah why's your knob looking so So, I'm sure.

23:50Frazer Clarke:Aliens. Back in the ring, Ali beats Joe Frazier in a rematch. And the stage is now set for him to take on George Foreman for the heavyweight title. Yeah, it's a huge fight. A lot of people have been trying to make this fight happen, but no one's been able to persuade these two fighters to sign on for a deal that works for both of them until Don King enters the fray. We know about Don King. We talked about him on our Mike Tyson episode. about as sharp elbowed and unscrupulous as boxing promoters come, right? Straight as a ride about that man. He's sort of like the guy that the archetype of a promoter who's not to be trusted is built on, right?

24:32Even the Simpsons have a character. Yeah, I was going to say the Simpsons have got him down to a tee. He's basically a crook. Yeah, yeah. But he does pull off this incredible fight and he does it in quite donking way. So he promises each of the fighters$5 million. And they're like, wow. I'm not sure whether they got it or not, but he definitely probably did promise them. He did not have it, but this was the trick. So he promised them, I'll get you your five million, just sign on. So they both sign on, and then he goes out fundraising in the US. Absolutely no one wants to kick in that amount of money for a fight.

25:03It's far too much. But there is a man who will. Mobutu, the dictator of Zaire. So Zaire these days is the Democratic Republic of Congo, and he is this terrifying megalomaniac we're looking at a picture of him in his trademark leopard hat leopard print hat the guy was a violent sicko but you've got to say great fashion yeah I mean the leopard print doesn't make him look that terrifying his shirt is amazing but to give you a flavour of this guy's vibe he changed his name to a much longer name which means the all powerful warrior who because of his endurance and inflexible will to win will go from conquest to conquest leaving fire in his wake if you're gonna name yourself something there you go

25:49Frazer Clarke:what was his name before? it's just Ian Rob yeah that's what Ian means actually but yeah he was you know a like terrifying dictator seriously nasty guy he's not actually the only dictator who Ali is hanging around with at this point because around the time of the Rumble in the Jungle he actually tours Africa a bit I mean the fight's gonna be in Zaire and he's a hero in Africa and so he goes he goes on a sort of fundraising expedition for the Nation of Islam because they reckon there's some leaders there who'll be sympathetic to their cause meets up with Colonel Gaddafi who chucks three million to the Nation of Islam which is generous and Gaddafi actually kicks in ten million for the fight purse so I think he Gaddafi pays the the money for the fighters and then Mobutu sorts everything else which is basically a stadium in in Kinshasa and Zaire and Don King just rubs yeah exactly he just takes counts his money yeah yeah yeah nice But having seen Gaddafi, Ali then heads on to Uganda where things were a little bit less friendly.

26:50So he's invited by Idi Amin. Again, if we're talking terrifying dictators, he's right up there into Amin's lair. And he meets him and he's like, look, this is what I'm doing. I'm looking for some donations to the Nation of Islam. You know, I think like we have some common cause. And Idi Amin just pulls out a briefcase with half a million dollars in cash in it and says, you can have this money, but there's one condition. You have to fight. and Ali's like well I'm already fighting his eyes he's like no no no you have to fight me so Idi Amin was a bit handy in the ring so in the 50s he was Ugandan's light heavyweight champion so he's no mug but he's not going to last against Muhammad Ali yeah I don't see what he's getting out of this he's paying to fight yeah just a status thing I mean it's probably something good to talk about down the pub isn't it with his mates like you know I've just done a few rounds with Muhammad Ali also if you're Muhammad Ali are you letting him you're not going to let Idi Amin lose are you?

27:43No, of course. So he's going to say I beat him. You might take it. 500 grand. Ah, you've hit me. You need to take it. I don't know. Apparently Ali hesitates and then Amin pulls out a gun and says, now what do you say Muhammad Ali? He's like, what am I meant to say? Okay. Apparently he literally says afterwards, he's like, if I fought him and won, I'm dead. If I fought him and lost, I'm dead. If I didn't fight him, I'm also dead. He somehow manages to like make his excuses and leave. I think Amin points the gun and then after a while just starts laughing and it's like, I'm joking with you, but that's his whole vibe.

28:14Terrifying bloke. So that's his preparation for the Rumble in the Jungle. He then flies on to Zaire, to Kinshasa, and prepares for the fight, where things are not necessarily set up for a world heavyweight title fight. All the journalists hate it. It's fucking hot. They don't have the usual amenities. They can't contact their office to file their stories. There is one journalist who likes it, which is Hunter S. Thompson, apparently, is loading up on weed and elephant tusks. He's in his element. Now, the fight. George Foreman was considered one of the hardest punches in history. Big George. There's footage of him just hitting punch bags and just leaving huge dents in him.

28:53He's known for just absolutely blowing people away. A bit unorthodox style of fighting, but yeah, he's just known as the biggest puncher of that time. Just wrecking ball, taking out person after person after person. and obviously that was what a lot of people thought was going to happen here about him and obviously he's beaten Joe Frazier for the heavyweight title knocked him out knocked him out like badly knocked him out like took him off his feet with an uppercut so obviously he'd beat Ali so people just put him two and two together yeah