How AI Is Rewiring Your Customers (And Why Most Businesses Aren't Ready)

0:00Most people think AI is just another tool. It's not. It's quietly becoming the layer that decides what your customers see, trust, and buy. And if you don't understand that, you're not competing anymore. You're being filtered out. In this episode, I sit down with Mark Schaefer to break down what's actually happening beneath the surface, how AI is rewiring human behavior, shifting decision making, and forcing a complete reset on how businesses grow. This isn't about tactics. This is about what happens when the customer stops thinking and starts delegating that to machines. Let's unlock it.

0:47Well, Mark, welcome to the show. I'm actually truly excited to jump into this because, I mean, this week alone, what I've learned about AI, human connection, where that's going, humans, the fact that a lot of humans will be being replaced, I think, with AI. And I know you wrote a book on that. I know you're known as a marketing branding expert. I want to jump in all of that if we can, because I know myself, I'm excited to learn. So I'm going to give you the floor here. Tell us about the last book, the latest book you just wrote and the impact it's having right now on marketing and humans themselves.

1:26Mark Schaefer:Yeah, first of all, thanks so much for having me. I'm really, I feel a sense of urgency about getting these ideas out into the world. You know, that's why you write books. So I did something really crazy last year. So I wrote actually two books in one year, and that was not a plan. But I wrote this book called Audacious, How Humans Win in an AI World, because this is what I see the world is really struggling with now. As we go increasingly toward AI, where do we fit? What do we do? And so I had this like kind of two-year project to interview some of the greatest marketers, greatest creatives in the world to see how they're breaking through the noise.

2:11Mark Schaefer:Okay, great. Great book. Everybody loves it. Selling great. And then I was asked to participate in a research study. They gathered 300 futurists from around the world, psychologists, philosophers, academics, scientists from Silicon Valley. And they said, we want you to answer this question. How will AI change humanity by 2035? So I was part of this report. When I saw this report came on, it was so stunning. And they came up with, they had consensus. Nobody really knows what's going happen with AI. But these 300 futures said, yeah, we see some places where it's going to go. I thought, well, look, if it's changing humanity, it's changing our customers.

3:06Mark Schaefer:And nobody's talking about this. AI is literally rewiring our customers. And we've got to get on top of that, right? So I went to the sponsors of the research. I said, this is such a great report. can I turn this into a book they said not only yes we're jealous we didn't have that idea and so I just had to that's how I spent my summer vacation last year because I just I've got to get this out into the world it's such a big idea I mean let's please let's jump right into it I think it's so important so I you said there was a consensus what was that consensus like how did all these different peoples from all walks of lives.

3:47And I love what you said. We don't know what the future is, but we've seen what the past is. We see where we're going. We can, you know, look into the mirror a little bit and then see out the window, I should say. What was the consensus? I really want to know that in 20, you know, in 2035. And then I would love to know, like, you know, everything else that came in that book.

4:07Mark Schaefer:Well, there were a couple of big buckets. I think they came up with about 10 ideas that were kind of big ideas. I picked about six of those because I thought those were most relevant to business and marketing. And I didn't want to turn it into a gigantic book. I mean, this is a small book. It's 150 pages. You can you know, read it in two hours, maybe. So some of the things I focused on, the first one would be cognitive offloading. So let me give you an example of kind of how this is showing up. I was talking to this young woman at a neighborhood party. She's a junior in college. She said, I use AI every hour of the day.

5:00Mark Schaefer:I use AI for everything. I said, you know, I would like to have this Gen Z perspective of how you're using AI. I want to interview you for my book. So I called her on the phone the next week. And she said, something really weird is taking over me. When you told me you wanted to interview me for your book, my first reaction was, I have to get the answer from ChatGPT. I am using AI to represent me on every email, on every message, on every text. And it made me, when my first reaction was, I can't answer you without ChatGPT, it made me think, where am I? I am making myself dumber. So this is going to be really a powerful, powerful trend because we're trusting AI more.

6:02Mark Schaefer:We're offloading more responsibility to AI. And what happened, and we're seeing this in the universities, right? We're seeing this. Look, if you're trying to hire people, do you really know who you're getting out of a university right now? Are they learning anything or are they just using AI? to get the quick answers. Humans tend to want the shortcut. They don't want to do the hard work. But here's what happens. I could have used AI to write my book. Lots of people are doing that. But if I used AI to write the book, I would not be able to have the conversation I'm having with you today. Because when you do the hard work, this process called phrenesis occurs.

6:55Mark Schaefer:Phrenesis means you're internalizing this work. You're gaining wisdom. And when I did the hard work, now I can consult about this topic. I can give a speech about this topic. I can have a knowledgeable conversation with a guy like you about this topic, right? So some of these experts, some of these futurists are saying AI is the equivalent of self-imposed dementia. Self-imposed dementia. Oh, interesting. We're starting to see this now because people aren't able to think for themselves. So this was a big one. Now, related to that is human agency. When AI can do everything for you and it can do everything better than you, and I mean, this is starting to bubble up in the public conversations now, right?

7:54Mark Schaefer:If AI could do everything better than me, like then what's left for me? You know, I'm, am I really in control anymore? What's my meaning? What's my purpose? How do you know, what do I do when I, you know, get up every morning? If AI is taken over all of this, I'll tell you, probably the most pressing moment of my professional career was I had just finished writing a book, I guess it was what, when the ChatGPT came out. I think it was November 2023. I had just finished writing this book, or maybe it was 2022. Finished this manuscript. I had spent two years working on this book called Belonging to the Brand, about Belonging to the Brand, about brand communities.

8:44Mark Schaefer:The first time I ever tried ChatGPT, I said, okay, write an essay that would fit in this book in the voice of Mark Schaefer. I've got a lot of content out there, so I was able to do that. And in three seconds, it wrote a perfect essay. Now you start to think, holy crap, like, what do I do? I mean, part of my purpose is the struggle. Part of my purpose is working on a book for two years that's so bold, so beautiful. It's going to help people in so many ways. And you're telling me, AI can do that, that existential question is going to be creeping into many people's lives right now. How does this impact human agency?

9:32How does this impact meaning and purpose?

9:36Mark Schaefer:And look, start looking at this from a sales and marketing perspective. This is going to be changing our customers, this cognitive offloading, this agency, the need for meaning and purpose. Right? And we're starting to even see this creep into sales and marketing strategies. You know, we could talk a little bit more about that, you know, at the end. So another one I'll mention briefly is human relationships. Oh, my gosh. There was a story in The Atlantic last month, what it means to marry a bot. Right? And so we're creating more trusting human, more trusting relationships. There is this, I think it's something like 32 % of Gen Z have a meaningful trusting relationship with an AI agent, with a non-human entity.

10:31Mark Schaefer:8 % would characterize it as a romantic relationship. Wow. A non-human entity. So think that through. Yeah. What happens when your most trusted friend is AI? Who are you going to ask for recommendations on the best shoes to buy? Your most trusted friend. And what happens when this trust increases in AI and AI never gets bored with you? never it's it's it's like a constant frictionless relationship you know ai never falls asleep in the middle of the night when you need somebody to talk to and so this idea that we are trusting ai and look here's the number one use for ai right now this just came out in a research report like two weeks ago.

11:33It's not planning your trip.

11:36Mark Schaefer:It's not searching for information. Here's the number one use for AI by far therapy. I would not be surprised to hear that, to be honest with you. So the question is this. So let me just ask, I know there's a lot here, but I've got so many pressing questions and that's a good one. Say, So we know the number one reason people are using is what I'm hearing from you. The number one reason people are using AI or the conversations they're having within AI are for therapy.

12:15Why is that necessarily a good or bad thing?

12:19Mark Schaefer:Well, one of the things I state in my book is, so one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was from a mentor of mine. And he said, you know, there's really no such thing as a weakness, just overdone strength. So there's kind of a good and bad to everything, right? If you are a reliable, self-reliant person, that's good. But if you're afraid to ask anybody for help, that becomes a weakness. If you're confident, that's good. If you're overconfident, it becomes arrogance. It's the same with AI. Look, we know we live in a world where many, many people, and especially young people, are lonely and isolated and depressed.

13:10Mark Schaefer:It's hard to find a therapist. It's expensive to have a therapist. Yeah. So AI absolutely can play a positive role. Now, even the therapists say, you know what? AI does a pretty good job. I have to say I'm impressed because what are therapists best at? Recognizing patterns and responding to those patterns with ideas to improve your life or alter those patterns in some way. AI is excellent at that. So there's definitely a positive role. Now, what's the overdone strength? What's the weakness? Well, it's when you can't separate AI from reality. If you depend on AI, that you're not turning to humans when you turn to humans, that can be the weakness.

14:10Mark Schaefer:and not recognizing when you need real human connection. It's interesting because I use AI for therapy. Not only that, I'm using it in the therapy sessions. Yeah, why not? And the therapist is going, damn. I play them. I actually play them against each other. not not not to out my therapist how does your therapist respond to that she to them love it they just kind of like at first they're kind of like you can see there's this energy where it's like oh here we go and then i go okay just give me a second here because what so i'll say what i'm hearing you say is this is this correct so i go now hey this is what i'm hearing i'm not quite understanding this tell me more and then it tells me and then i go so what you're saying is this and they're like i couldn't have said it best you know and then and then if it gets it wrong i will the therapist was like well it's a little bit off oh great what's off about it what am i doing i'm actually training the bot to think better to be it better because and getting that expertise right it's so interesting you say this because that that is the fear i have i personally have is some of that fear is like the in especially people who who i i want to say this might maybe have um illness let's say mental illness right and and they're already feeling isolated you said they're already feeling alone and the only relationship they're getting attached to is a relationship here's here's the thing they can control that's the challenge the real danger is it's an illusion of compassion right look it's math it's it's an algorithm it's yeah crap about you right yeah yeah but it gives the illusion of compassion and as you said it can learn to do a better job the more it talks to you.

16:19Mark Schaefer:And up to a certain point, that can really be helpful. I had the same experience. I was kind of struggling with a, you know, I'm sort of in this career transition where I'm trying to slow down a little bit, trying to get off the road a little bit. I turn to AI for some advice on some things. And it gave me such a good answer that was like, so thought provoking, so profound. I ran and showed my wife. I said, listen, I just got this. I think it's right. So if you put all this stuff together, Kayvon, it leads to this last sort of big bucket. And that is this. And I think this is what would be so vitally interesting to you and your audience is that AI has become the decision maker for us in many ways.

17:14Mark Schaefer:I wrote in the book that in many ways, if you're in sales and marketing today, you are in the diaper business. What I mean by that, so the joy of my life right now, I have my first grandson, and he is a wonderful, bright, strong boy, and he is an expert pooper. He goes through a lot of diapers. Now, he is the end user. If you want to sell diapers to him, he's the end user. But he is not the decision maker. You have got to sell to mom and dad. Now, last year, I went on a trip to Europe. I said, you know what? I want to hang out in Paris for five days just to hang out, have a little fun. I went to ChatGPT.

18:04Mark Schaefer:I said, I love art. I love music. I love history. Plan a five-day trip for me. Tell me where to go, how to get there, what times to go. And also, I have to eat gluten-free. Every location, find me a gluten-free restaurant near that location. I followed that path exactly. I didn't see any ads. I didn't see any branded content. So AI made the decision. It didn't consult with anything. So AI is representing these locations, these museums, these restaurants, and sending me there. AI is the decision maker. I'm just wearing the diapers. I hear that. Okay. So, man, there's so many places we can go here.

18:58So in that decision, I've done that before, too. And you know what? I didn't like the responses. And then I think I think it's about understanding how AI works. So that information that you got from AI is all from people's blogs and blogs on the Internet. It's not necessarily the correct information. It's just what it feels is maybe the best information for you. So in that case, you also have to understand that about AI when it comes to that type of decision making. And I think for humans who've lost all sense of that and they're just going 100 % on that decision, I think that's a problem for sure.

19:34I would say that that's a problem.

19:35Mark Schaefer:I think you bring up a key point that, first of all, we do have to have human discernment, and especially when it's high risk. And the other point is, look, millions and millions of people go to Paris. They know the inside tricks, right? So, I mean, one of the things on this itinerary even said, oh, when you go to the Louvre, don't go to this entrance. Go to this entrance by the metro station because there's no crowds. And it was right. Yeah. So, I mean, in this case, it was low risk. Yeah. There's lots of data out there. Now, let me add one more thing because this is very, very important. There were two parts of this itinerary that I did not follow AI, and it was this.

20:22Mark Schaefer:Number one, I said, okay, create this itinerary, but I want to fly this airline. I want to stay in these hotels. Now, the brand is the override for AI. AI. That's why branding is more important than ever. Creating that meaning, creating that loyalty with your customers is more important than ever. So you don't have to depend on AI. You don't have to depend on an algorithm. They're going to recommend you because they love you. They know you do good work, right? That's point number one. The second place I didn't follow AI is I have a friend in my marketing brand community. And she said, Oh, I see you're going to Paris.

21:13Mark Schaefer:I know you're gluten-free. There is this bakery in Paris. You have got to try. It is the best gluten-free bakery in the world. Did I go there? You bet. The fact was so good. I went there twice. So you're exactly right that when you get a recommendation from AI, you're going to consider it and you're You have to provide human discernment and figure out if it's true. When you get a recommendation from a friend you trust, you're going to act. Word-of-mouth marketing, that is another override for AI. Creating a product, an idea, a service that's so cool, that's so conversational, that's so worthy and admissible, people can't wait to talk about it.

22:00Mark Schaefer:That bakery, they don't have the marketing firepower to end up on an AI recommendation. But it's so good, people talk about it and recommend it to their friends all the time. And that is unadulterated, pure, the best marketing, the best advertising you can ever get when a friend tells you to go there. So let's jump into that, if that's okay, because I want to understand, because you brought up a good point. So branding and AI is more important than ever before. So what does that mean, branding and AI? How does a company be able to take that sentence and actually implement that into their business tomorrow?

22:43Mark Schaefer:Yeah. So there's a couple of, I mean, this is emerging, right? Everybody's trying to figure out how do we get recommended on AI? So there's like a cottage industry emerging of people and businesses trying to figure this out. But the number one sort of conclusion that I can make right now is that the standard marketing and sales best practices still work, right? You're creating a good product at a good price. You're getting good reviews. You've got people talking about you. You've got people reviewing you online. Maybe talking about you in a positive way on Reddit. So if you're taking care of your company, your marketing, and your sales function, all those good things still work.

23:37Mark Schaefer:Products still work. Price still works. Promotion still works. The four Ps of marketing. Pay attention to that stuff. Creating great content. Having an authoritative presence on the web. Having good customer service. That is going to show up in the AI. All right. So everybody shouldn't be overwhelmed and freak out because what we've been doing all along is still going to work. There are a few things that are a little bit different. And I'll just name one because I think it's pretty significant. Whenever you're working on SEO, one of the big factors is backlinks. Right. So if you've worked at SEO at all, and by the way, Google search, a lot of people are moving toward AI, but Google search is still growing.

24:32Mark Schaefer:So it's not like Google's going away. Google search is still growing, so don't dismiss Google. With AI, AI recommendations pay no attention to backlinks. what ai really loves is data so google wants to see great content helpful content lots of backlinks ai doesn't care it's a robot it's a machine it just wants lots of information lots of data faqs and it wants to see you mentioned in other places not necessarily backlinks, but someone talking about you in a positive way on Reddit or someone featuring you in an article somewhere or showing up on a podcast like this. So AI might say, oh my gosh, look, Kayvon is doing such a good job on his podcast.

25:32Mark Schaefer:He had Schaefer on his podcast. Hmm, that's a vote for Schaefer. So that's sort of, I think in some ways, one of the subtle differences is that backlinks made a big difference for SEO. For AI, this is the golden age of public relations, of PR, of showing up in media, on people's blogs, reviews, testimonies, podcasts, video interviews. That's an important difference. But other than that, look, stick to your marketing, treat people well, build your brand. It's more important than ever. I think a focus on word-of-mouth marketing is super important right now because that's one of the overrides of AI.

26:21So when it comes to the marketing, it's interesting in SEO. What goes through my head when you're saying that is how do you compete with the team? I know how to do it, but how do you compete with the businesses that know how to use AI where the bot is literally working 24-7, building and posting SEO written specific H1, H2, all that stuff written properly blogs. Yeah. At a speed that no human can ever keep up with. How does the small pop even keep up with that type of thing? That's the scary part about AI. is the advancement and understanding what it is and then understanding how to use it. And then the deeper one is really understanding how to build it so that it's working 24-7.

27:16I actually disagree with you in a way.

27:20Mark Schaefer:I think this is the best opportunity for small businesses. Look, I work with some of the biggest companies and some of the biggest brands in the world. They are struggling. They are really, really struggling. So just think about this. Think about this. So, well, basically, I'm a one-man show, basically. I mean, I've got 1099 employees kind of scattered around the world, but I'm not a big company. I'm not a big agency. I don't have resources creating AI content 24 hours a day, but this is what I do. I create content that matters. On every one of my blog posts, I have a badge that says 100 % human content.

28:08Mark Schaefer:So bring on the AI slot. You're just creating a pandemic of dull. But I'm going to give you something special. And you are too, right? You are looking at your guests. You are curating your content very carefully. People can count on you. They can turn to you. That's going to be rewarded by, uh, by AI. Oh, by AI. Okay. It's going to be rewarded by AI. It's going to be rewarded by humans, of course. But you know, why am I here with you? Why aren't you interviewing, you know, somebody from, you know, Procter and Gamble? You're interviewing me because I did the work, right? I wrote the books that got your interest.

28:51Mark Schaefer:I've blogged every single week with maybe an – I took a little break around COVID, three or four weeks. But basically, I've blogged more than 1 ,000 weeks in a row. I had a podcast for 13 years. I never missed a single episode. I've written 12 books that are – they're all bestsellers. They're books that people love and they're helping. So I did the work. I have a personal brand that means something to people. And so I'm going to show up in all these places and eventually AI will notice. I got a new customer, Kayvon, and I said, well, how did you find me? And this person said, well, I went to ChatGPT and I said, who are the top 10 digital marketing authorities in the world?

29:43Mark Schaefer:Nice. And you were on the list. and then I went to your website and I said, oh, look at this. You know, I like what he, I'm going to hire him. Now, let me tell you a little secret. I am not one of the top 10 digital marketing authorities in the world. I can name 10 of my friends who are smarter than me. I'm not joking, but I show up. And again, I'm not a big company, you know, with millions of dollars. I don't have an advertising agency. but here here's something you're not saying that i think that you've said it indirectly but it needs to be said because i can tell you i'm showing up on on ai for certain things and i'll tell you exactly where it's from it wasn't from this year of writing blogs and trying to out out outwork the algorithm it was actually from three years ago when we put a full on a business plan in place for seo knowing it was going to be a three-year plan and now that's coming to fruition so if you're telling me you're thousands of podcasts and you know thousand weeks of of seo blog writing then yeah you will be showing up absolutely and that that makes sense it's it's it's no hockey stick right i mean there's no shortcut you know it's work every week every week every week that's the one thing i think a lot of and i have no problem saying it because i speak to too many business owners not respecting and understanding the power of seo number one but not realizing it's not like paid ads you don't win right away like you got to invest invest invest invest time money energy invest time money energy in a year right two years it starts to come to fruition but it doesn't happen overnight and i think a lot of business owners they want, what's the ROI on it?