Why Sales Avoidance Is Killing Your Business (And No One Wants to Admit It)

21:45Ideal customer profile, right? Most. They're probably looking it up or they're too embarrassed to even do that. They're afraid chat CBT might judge them. We're talking over people's heads with all of this stuff. We have to be able to explain it. So like, well, what do you do? I build world-class revenue machines for B2B companies in 120 days. That's what I do. It's like, okay. And by the way, people go to my website, they're like, you know, really, it's really clear what you do. I go, I know I go to your website and I have no idea what you do, right? I have no idea what you do. And so I think it's overcomplicated.

22:15And I think that when you're in it and you're building it, you start to think everyone has the same knowledge base that you do. you start explaining what you do in a way that maybe they get. But I'll tell you, those companies that I have those conversations with, when I meet with the other people in the company one-on-one, I go, hey, what are you guys doing? Who do you do it for? I'll get 10 answers from 10 different people and none of them are good, right? That company's struggling because everyone's rowing in their own direction, right? It's about like what makes a company successful, hire really great people, create an environment where they can thrive, let them all know exactly where we're going, right?

22:47And so if everybody there knows this is what we do and who we do it for, then you're giving everyone the freedom to use all of their power and knowledge to get you to that place. If everyone's kind of confused about it, good luck, right? Because then it's like, you know, you almost have to get there by accident otherwise. And that's a hard one because you're asking founders to think differently in that if they're in that kind of gap, right, is to get clear. And what I've found in my experience too is, again, we're going to use buzzwords, but getting them to niche down first, right? Like, but I can help everybody.

23:19And the, you know, as you know, you try to go help everybody, you're helping nobody. So then there's this gap of trying to help the right somebody, right? And then knowing how to speak to them. So from what I'm hearing from you though, it sounds like you do a lot of more like sales, like you help with the sales process, but you also do marketing. Is that? So we do whatever's necessary to fix the entire go-to-market process. So I have a client right now that's on board this week. The sales guy who runs their sales team is elite. Probably the best in his industry. There's a company, there's 50 companies in this space.

23:52This guy is really, really good. I'm not messing with him or his sales process at all. This company has a product that is better, faster, and cheaper than the competition. I always say, if you have one of those three, you can build a company. If you have two of those three, it's a no brainer. If you have three out of that three, you shouldn't even need a salesperson. The problem with this company is they have no marketing, none, right? They're growing like crazy. They're doing really well. They have no marketing. And so they, the sales guy's doing a great job, but so with them, it's all going to be messaging and marketing and lead distribution.

24:21Yeah. Like driving leads, driving leads. Maybe I'll break that sales guy, but he's built big companies before he understands that. Like I've met with him. Like I don't, I think, I don't think I need to mess with that. So I'm not going to, right. So for them, I'm coming in as kind of a chief marketing officer and we're going to go ahead and fill that out for another company. who's like, Hey, listen, like we are, we don't really, our leads, our sales guys generate leads. They're the ones dialing, whatever it is. Like that's their sales process. It's a lower ticket thing. Cool. And I'm, then it's, it's a sales gig, right?

24:49So everything's about messaging. We have to get the right words and we have to really dial into what, what moves our, our ideal customer to move forward with us. But then once we get that messaging, we kind of fix whatever is broken. Some companies it's a founder doing sales and I'm building out everything from scratch. Sometimes I'm coming into a company that's pretty well established in one or two areas and we're just fixing the third. But through the discovery process, we do a diagnosis. And really what we need is perfect alignment between messaging, lead generation and sales process with the technology underneath it, kind of holding it all together at the end of the four months.

25:23And so we built, we plan it, we build it, we test it. And then we, we let right off into the sunset. And then ready for scale. Let's take a step back a little bit. Cause we're talking a little technical here. I kind of want to take a step back with who you are, like Mark, how did like how did you get into this space you know what did you learn in your know it sounds like you had a quite successful year with mortgages uh you know sorry not a year but like you know a career and uh like tell us a little bit about that how did you kind of end up going from owning mortgage businesses to you know consulting you know businesses across the nation well it all started because i was a horrible student and that's how you end up in the mortgage industry because if you get really good grades in college, you don't usually end up selling mortgages.

26:08It was the one place where my grades didn't matter. But I found that call center and moved up and then started companies from there. I would say I wasn't even necessarily a naturally entrepreneurial person, but I knew what work I wanted to do and how much money I wanted to make. And at some point in the mortgage space, it just became obvious that that was the way to do it. Um, the, the thing that made it very difficult for me is I'd not come from a family that like was entrepreneurial or in the mortgage space or built companies or businesses. And I was very closed off to the idea that like business was similar.

26:43I didn't read any books. I didn't ask anybody for help. I didn't think anybody, consultants, I'd be like, how's anyone going to help me with my business? My business, how's anyone going to know more than me about this? And I told myself all these stories. And I ended up selling that company for pennies on the dollar for what, if I could go back and knowing what I know now and talk to the kid who sold that company, I'd probably still own it. And I would have made a hundred times as much money. And what happened was I sold that company and I moved to Charleston. And then I met this guy, Rich Wiedel, who was running, was about to take over Princeton mortgage.

27:14And he hadn't really built anything, but he went to Cornell. He knew all the right people. He would call CEOs of Fortune 100 companies for conversations and they would take his call. I never dreamed of it. He'd read every book. And not only did he read the book, but like he pulled the book off the shelf and turned to the page, like, just like, and I'd be like, this is what remember. And I was just like, so blown away by this guy. Uh, and I've known 10 years later, I still am. And, uh, I did this, this six years with them. And the first four of it, I was just playing catch up. I was reading all the books.

27:41I was having all the conversations and what it is. It took all that stuff. I'd learned through pain, millions of dollars in mistakes. And by the way, I wouldn't trade any of that for the world right now because it gives me such an authenticity when I'm dealing with people who are bootstrapping it and building it. I've done that. I've been there. And then all of a sudden I had all these frameworks where I could suddenly explain very clearly what I had learned in a way that other people could understand. And it wasn't just me saying it. I was like, Hey, this really smart person said it. And so it wasn't just Mark's school.

28:09I thought it was kind of that next step. And did very well in the mortgage industry with Princeton. But then when rates went up, I was like, Hey, I just started my forties. I'm still in build mode. I don't want to wait around for the next refi boom. Like I want to go. And so I took a year off really trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And that time I kept helping my friends and family build businesses. And I loved it. I got to learn about new businesses. I was having such an impact on people. And I was doing something I thought was so obvious. It was like, what do you mean you're not doing that?

28:38What do you mean you're not doing this? And they're like, dude, no one's ever said any of that to me before. And I was like, well, I think there's a business here maybe. And so, you know, we started, I started doing a little bit more and a little bit more. And then I was like, in June, I was like, you know, man, I'm, I love this. I get to help other people get to where they want to go, which has been the unlock for me the whole time. Everything in my career that's happened that's good is because, Hey, how did you build this company? Well, I hired a bunch of salespeople and I obsessed about how to help them hit their goals.

29:02And then we did, right? Like it was like always thinking that way about it. Right. Um, and, and it was my first conversation with Rich where he said, what do you want people to say about you at your funeral? And I said, I want there to be a lot of people there who helped me get them, who helped, who I helped, who say he helped me get to where I wanted to go. Um, and so I, now I get to do that like, you know, such a real way with founders, with their teams, you know, and we had a quote earlier this year where there was a company that hired us and we do sales, right? Sales and marketing. The, the head engineer calls me up and he goes, you did more for our sales and marketing in 30 days than what we were able to do in the last 30 years.

29:38And when, when, and I was like, what do you mean? He's like, dude, he's like, I couldn't tell anybody what we did or who we did it for. There was no, we were scrambling around to every client who walked in the door. We were trying to find a way to help that person. Cause we had no clear definition of who, who we were trying to help and what we didn't, didn't do is that you just cleaned all that up and told us internally what our jobs were. And suddenly we're all moving in the right direction and the clients are showing up. Right. Yeah. When you're getting that kind of feedback, it's like, wow, like I am doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

30:05And so I, I've always kind of felt like I was doing what I'm supposed to be doing, but in this moment, I'm feel never felt more like I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. I love that. I mean, if anybody was listening, they can probably hear your conviction the whole way through. But you used a word and I wanted to jump on it because I think it's very important. And it sounds like you're in it right now, but use a word earlier, which is called alignment. Yeah. How important is alignment for businesses, for individuals, for companies? I would argue it's the most important thing other than the fact that you can't have alignment unless you first declare very specifically what you're trying to do and where you're trying to go.

30:49So first thing, I would say the most important thing is like, hey, we're trying to get a 10 million ARR and I'm going to sell. Cool. If you know that going in, that's like a very clear path. We know what to do to get there. If you're like, hey, I'm building this business. I want to work here for 40 years and I want to give it to my kids and I want to be doing a billion dollars a year. That's like a very specific thing. So first thing is, what are we doing here? Why are we doing this? Where are we trying to go? Second thing is an alignment, right? And which is both in terms of your thought process, what your team thinks, the direction they're all moving, and then how you guys talk about that both internally and externally is the hack, right?

31:26If you have a bunch of smart, motivated people who all know what you're trying to do and they all have the freedom to operate in that with, with some rules of the game in place, we call them culture and values, right? What are our rules of the game? That's the unlock, right? And so, but I will tell you one out of a hundred companies that I meet with where it feels like there's alignment and, and I see founders tolerating misalignment out of fear or what they'll say is prioritization. But if you, how many times you see a sales team and a marketing team with different leaders who don't talk to each other all the time, right?

31:58I mean, I'm not saying they don't get along. They might like each other, but they don't talk to each other. Right. And it's like, okay, if I'm using this language to generate leads and my sales team is using this language in the first five minutes of the sales call, you're teaching everyone out of the gate, not to trust you. You have a cynical buyer base to begin with. They are looking for signals of, can I trust you or not trust you? So simple. And by the way, this is happening at a subconscious level for your buyer. They go, wow, I clicked on this lead because it said you guys could do this.

32:26By the way, the company can. The sales guy comes in and go, starts talking about this other thing that they do, or this, this other angle. And this person goes, wow, that's interesting. And suddenly they have this feeling of like, I think I'm in the wrong place. And then they don't buy and you'll never even know it's because of misalignment. So I see this all people are like, why do you spend so much time on the words and the language and the messaging? Like, and it's like, because if you, when you have unified words you use, it allows everything to move 10 times as quickly, right? Like, it's almost like if you're in a kayak, like rowing crew, it's like if one person's rowing against you or just not rowing at all and holding their paddle in the water, the boat just spins around in circles.

33:07Like you can all paddle very slowly, but if you're in unison and doing it together, the boat will go straight and it will move. As soon as one person stops paddling, we just go in circles, right? I call it a doctrine. I create doctrines for companies, which is the messaging, the marketing, the psychology at every layer of where they are part of them. I'm going to say the funnel, online funnels. And it's not a marketing plan. It's not, I tell them this is the doctrine, this is the Bible of what we actually represent and where we come from. If we waver off this, we have problems. If marketing is talking at different layers than what the doctrine says, we are going to have problems, whether it's sales, marketing, fulfillment.

33:50So it is all about alignment. It is all about making sure that the signal, you just said the energy, the signal is, is, is also two on the same wavelength alignment so that the prospect, whether it's cold, never heard from you all the way to on a call with you all the way to pay, basically making a buying decision. They're getting the same frequency from all departments. So I love that by the way. So let me ask you a question then. So when you think about that, what company do you use as like your north star or like a story or a book where you were like oh man like that founder that company did that in a way where like that's what these other companies should be emulating like what's your what's your go-to example my go-to example on that one for me personally is the company that i got to work with and build as a i was a partner in it in 2018 we We went from not massive, but we went from zero to 38 million in 18 months.

34:48And what I saw that it wasn't all great, but the vision that was sold and the way that everyone operated is what takes. This is what I saw that takes to build that type of company. Now, is the vision coming from a good place? That's a different story. But when I look at what I know what it takes, I think of what we did back then. uh and then other big companies i think about uh that that withstand the founder meaning you can keep growing and the founder is not part of it because they because i call it it kind of created its own mechanism like an organism and it built like founder there or not or like companies like you know like big ones like apple for instance right uh steve jobs no longer here the company still thriving is it on the same mission no but does that all i know is that my series still doesn't work it's 2026 almost and siri never got there it's well because the company's changed for sure therefore they want money i mean i mean look at the as an iphone really been upgraded in the last 10 years no that does not the innovation isn't there but what i see with a company like that though is it still like it's taken on its own mechanism organism like that thing is going to go as long as they have the right ceos in place right now is the right mission is the right thing that we want to agree on no but does that thing still make how you know they're printing money over there printing money right printing so i think about companies like that um amazon i don't know much about amazon like right like i just haven't done the research on like what amazon's done i'm just being you know transparent here but like i you know massive right i don't even can't even my brain can't even comprehend honesty like if you try to even understand how big that company is and what that company does amazon trucks on the road different people different countries products all that like my brain explodes this even even thinking about it yeah those are those are good examples I'll just share one of my favorites that people really relate to is Netflix.

36:56And I like that one for a couple of different reasons. One is because Netflix has been three completely separate companies when you think about this. And each time has just completely eliminated their competition. First time it was we're going to mail people movies. It sounds like an insane idea, right? But they put Blockbuster out of business by mailing people movies, right? And they created a business around that. and they did it through a subscription model, right? Which is like they came up with new ways to do it. Second thing is they really invented streaming technology, right? Like they were the first ones who could do streaming and they, at one point, like 80 % of all internet traffic was people streaming stuff on Netflix and they invented the technology to be able to do that and dominated in that space.

37:38And while they were doing that, they created this model of buying content where they were early to it. People had completely undervalued it. They understood the value differently than everyone else and they made a fortune. and that's great it's two different companies and two completely different companies and they dominated it and they go hey i know hollywood's been making movies and tv shows for a hundred years um and it's been the same players most time like building those big production companies uh we're going to come in and by the way within a couple years we're going to win all the awards we're going to get all the viewership we're going to get all the prestige stuff we're going to attract all the biggest people to work with us and we're going to and we're going to dominate and they did.

38:13And it's insane that they were able to do that to a hundred year old industry in that sort of a disruptive way. You say, well, what, how did that happen? This company's famous for their culture deck, right? Like they, they know who they are. They are run like a professional sports team. And by the way, the idea is attract the most talented people you can and give them the most amount of freedom that you possibly can to achieve a very clear mission. Yeah. Right. And support them and get out of the way. And by the way, you get a 51 % vote on what you're doing. And I get a 51 % vote on whether or not you work here.

38:45And so cool. You're running this project. You're doing it. You want to, you want, you want, by the way, here's my notes on your TV show. You get, you get to run it wherever you want. By the way, if people watch your TV show, we'll give you six more TV shows. If people don't watch your TV show, we're not working with you anymore. And that's, that's our 51 % vote. Right. And so how do you attract the best directors in the world? You give them creative freedom. You give them a big budget and creative freedom, right. And then create amazing shows. You know, HBO was the first one to do that with creative freedom, right?

39:10It was like, no, you guys do it your way. Suddenly all the best, all the best shows are there. Right. And so what there's so much we can learn from that. Right. But Netflix super, by the way, most people work in Netflix, work there for a season or two, four or five years. Right. Like it's a, it's a really grinded out culture of doing great things. We're doing great work. We get to celebrate those. We get to make a lot of money while we're there. We get to pay people well. We get a ton of creative freedom. We get to learn stuff. We attract really great people to what we're doing in our mission here.

39:38Right. And then we have that culture. And so Bridgewater, you know, Ray Dalio is another guy just really admire with this stuff. And so to exactly what you're talking about is let's create a framework for what our company is, what we do and how we talk about it. And then let's set really ambitious goals that attract big people who want to do ambitious things and then give them freedom inside of that operating model that we very clearly defined to go accomplish those goals, right? 51 % vote, a hundred percent responsibility for the result. Right. And then we make it really clear and go. And so, and that that's, that's what we bring to these companies.

40:12And I think it's awesome. I love the, I play sports. So I really do love the analogy of you're building a sports team here. Like when you take it from that perspective, if you're building a Superbowl, I'm just going to use the Superbowl for this, you know like whatever like the super world series or a super bowl sports team year after year they cut players they trade players they cut staff faster than ever why because they're trying to optimize for the win it's not personal it's just it's the name of the game right so i like that ideology uh and thought process is like if okay if i was a professional sports team just even as a business owner agency owner myself who's who's on my winning team who i always looked at it as if I went to war, who am I bringing and who can I trust?

41:00Yeah. And, and, and, you know, I had my personally, you know, my business last year, I had to make the, I fired 50 % of my, my staff because of that 50%. It, and that's not a weird number. The funny thing is when you do that, all of a sudden we become more profitable. We get more clients. we move faster and we see more money which is very interesting thing right because and and all those other people they all went on some of them went off and done greater things of course greater things that they could ever do here why they were never actually in alignment here it's not my doesn't mean i'm less than doesn't mean i couldn't provide them the the best opportunity what it means was the opportunities that i had here weren't in alignment for them and it's a good thing it's a good thing.

41:51When I first started companies, I used to think that if I let somebody go, they were going to die. Like literally, like the personal responsibility I would take is like, what are they going to do? How are they going to pay their bill? They all made it. And I'm not saying that losing your job isn't incredibly painful or scary or anything else, but it's better ultimately than being stuck in a place where it's not optimal for you to do the best work of your life and for you to thrive. Right. And so, you know, we, we, we very clearly define what it means to thrive. Um, and we will help people get the next job and we like to do severance and all those different things.

42:23But like at the end of the day, yes, we're trying to win a championship. Right. And by the way, you see it with professional sports teams all the time. Where do the veteran players go for discounts when they're free agents to the organizations that are committed to winning. And so by having a commitment to winning and showing that you're willing to do difficult things you don't feel like oh if i tell people that we're gonna let them go if they underperform we're not going to be able to attract winners it's the opposite a players don't worry that you're going to cut them they're 100 sure that they're going to crush it whether they're right or wrong i've never once looked at somebody and i'm like dude i don't know if i can hack it there like that's just not how i think it might be true but i don't i want to win i want to go i want to go join a team where i'm the weak hey hey listen a low a play players hang out with a players a players don't want to hang out with C players.

43:08So if your culture is a bunch of C players, you're never going to track an A player. Problem is you're going to think a B player looks like an A player because you have all C players. That's a, that's a big problem I see. Uh, and then the other thing I see with people is they, they, they're not holding their own founders are not holding their own rules and their own accountability. So they're saying X, but displaying Y, and then wondering why there's disruption. Yeah. I, I, I often say to people, how much would your behavior at work change if your wife and kids were in the office with you? And for me, it was a real thing.

43:43I had my wife and kids in the office when I was building my company. And I'm the same person. For better or worse, you get the same version of me wherever you are, right? And my version of integrity is like, I don't lie about anything. People are like, what do you mean? I go, well, if I'm walking down the street with my wife and a beautiful woman walks by and I'm looking at her, my wife goes, were you looking at her? I go, yes, I was. People think that's crazy. I go, I would rather have the discomfort. I'm telling my wife I was checking that person out than the dysfunction of being somebody who lies to my wife.

44:12That's it. Discomfort over dysfunction. I'm in the same way of business. I'm in the same way with my family, with my friends, whatever it is. When I see business owners out of alignment, right? Same thing. It's like if you're willing to behave one way here and one way here, then what you're really saying is you're hoping nobody notices that you do whatever you feel like whenever you feel like it, right? Like that's really what it is. And so that, that does create a toxic culture. Again, I'm not saying you can't succeed that way. I've seen in spite of these things, people who are really good at enough one or two tricks to get, to get it all to work.

44:43But if there's always friction, there's always odds. It shows up in other places. If it's not showing up in the business, it's showing up at home. It's not showing at home. It's showing up in relationships. And it's not showing up relationships. It's showing within the relationship themselves. Shows up in their own spirituality. You can't, again, it's the world of the economy, right? Like you can't say you're doing X and then doing Y. You can't, there's, you know, there's, there's like, we call those full, this full alignment, hard place to get to as a founder. But I know once you do everything clicks, everything be just becomes a little easier.

45:12Not saying it's always going to be easier. It just becomes a little lighter, a little easier because you're allowing for a little bit more freedom. And then that freedom is where all the great stuff happens. You know, and one of the things I always preach to is I preach radical transparency. We share almost everything at my companies with almost everyone. And people like you tell people when you're losing money, I'm like, yeah, I need those people to be the ones to do something about it. Otherwise I'm owning all of it myself. And these are the ones who have to go out and do the work. Right. And so like, you know, again, I'm unwilling to walk around pretending anything, you know what I mean?

45:44Like it's just, it's just not it. Once I'm out of alignment that way, I'm not doing my best work. I'm not feeling good about what I'm doing. And so I think there's tremendous freedom in just saying things the way they are and showing everybody what's the truth. And again, if you, if you know what the mission is and what the rules are, you'll attract the right people who want to go on that journey with you, even when times are tough. I totally agree. So as we really do come to an end here, uh, for anyone listening, founders listening, that might be in this spot might not, might not be in a complete alignment, might have a marketing message or a sales message.

46:17Uh, where can they find you? How can they work with you? How can we get the, you know, I'll start having you serve them. No, I appreciate it. So my website is IGTMS.com. That's integrated go-to-market solutions, IGTMS.com. You can find me, Mark Douglas Gordon on LinkedIn or Mark D Gordon on Instagram. Reach out to me, book a call. My phone number's on LinkedIn. My Calendly's there. And I say this because no matter what stage you are as a business owner, again, if you're not at least doing two or three million, it's probably not a fit. I'd still like to meet you. I'd still like to help. I genuinely enjoy meeting entrepreneurs, genuinely enjoy learning about what people are doing in their businesses.

46:53And I do believe very much that the more of those conversations I can have, the more it's going to be good for everything about who I want to be and what I want to do. And so if you're out there right now, no matter what stage you're at in your business, if you're feeling stuck or you have some specific questions, you think I might be able to help, reach out, book a call, happy to meet with you. And yeah, that's where you can find me. Awesome. Thanks so much for being here. Appreciate you. That's another episode of The Vault Unlocked.

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