‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Hype With Mallory Rubin. Plus, Doug Dulgarian of They Are Gutting a Body of Water.

21:05But it is different. It's a different flavor. And that is certainly the flavor here. But yeah, you will see the Targaryens in the story. And people should expect that.

21:14Mallory Rubin:It's Thursday now. The bridge from Game of Thrones and George R.R. Martin to the next topic is Fabian Frankel. Obviously, Sir Christian Cole. With us always. In House of Dragons. They just finished shooting season three, I think. I mean we're gonna get two Thrones shows next year when's the last time that's happened has that ever happened never are you excited to do talk to Thrones two times in one year you ready I'm way more excited about Dunkin' Egg I mean I love working with you guys but I would be way more excited about doing you could have just said yes I can't wait to spend time with you guys yes I can't wait to spend time with you yes but that wasn't what you said was it um you are current on task yes as we head into the finale I am.

21:59Mallory Rubin:Have you gotten to talk about it? Do you like it? Do you love it? I think it's fucking amazing. It's one of my probably three favorite shows of the year. I've loved listening to you and Andy talk about it. And I've loved watching the show. I'm pretty despondent that it's about to end. I am current through six. I got back from my travels. And I was a couple episodes behind. And it was the first thing on my to-do list. I mean, I had some work to catch up on. But on my television to-do list, catching up on task. I was like, this is the most important thing. So you did five and six when you got back?

22:28Yes. And boy.

22:29Mallory Rubin:Well, those are promotions. So spoilers up until and through six. Although if you're listening to The Watch, you're probably like on Task Island with us. Yeah. I don't even know where to start. Let's talk about Fabian. Because did you think he had this in him? Yeah, because I think unlike Andy, I think he's great on House of the Dragon. You know, obviously we're big. We're big. Kristen Cole has here. It's a specific part. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Now, have I been waiting for Grasso to take out a sword and start polishing it with a lemon? I have. Yeah. You know, have I found myself in moments saying, will we get a spoiler for House of the Dragon?

23:05You wish it a spoiler for Thrones. I'll issue a more recent spoiler for House of the Dragon. You know, are we going to get any, like, diving into the royal muff a la Kristen and Allison? Not so, you know, more restraint. Yeah, sell it. From Grasso. I think that the performance has been great. I think the character is a highlight of the show. Grasso and Lizzie same for me as for you just my my I mean obviously like it's it feels a little weird to say anything other than like the Robbie Tom scenes are actually the number one highlight of the show because of course yeah but like something about that Lizzie Grasso because that was what we were anticipating was Tom and Robbie right was was Ruffalo and Pelfrey and so the absolute out of nowhere wallop of watching what developed in real time between Grasso and Lizzie is like the delight of the show to me.

23:53And Maeve too, like the things that I wasn't prepared for the way I was like, you know, I thought Pelfrey on Ozark, that that was one of the performances of like the decade. So I was thrilled to have him back on our lives in the show. And I love Ruffalo. He's like an all time fave of mine. And I loved Maravise Town. So I was really looking forward to the show. And I've not been disappointed with any of the things that I was anticipating, but the stuff that I had no real reason to like be looking forward to as much has just blown me away. It's been sensational. And like, I know I said this, I really have loved listening to you guys talk about it.

24:25Like, I think your conversations have been beautiful and the show is beautiful.

24:30Mallory Rubin:Yeah, it's like, it's hard to like, I mean, we laugh about it and like we joke about it, but it's definitely moved me pretty deeply. So it's like, it's sort of like Andy and I have to like, kind of go into this sort of tender zone when we talk about it. But yeah, I think that it was just really surprising for me. I think I really did go into it. And I should have known better because Mare is not like this. Mare is like, you know, Winslet and Jean Smart sitting around and talking to the priest and like the kid having the band. And like there's so much life in Mare. It's not surprising that this is the same way.

25:06Mallory Rubin:But like I just kind of thought like, oh, yeah, it's going to be way more about like moving drugs in Philly and like cops chasing who's hitting these stash houses. the mystery of this show is over like yeah very fast yeah you know like i think that when they take sam home in the first episode and it becomes obvious that it's like sam is like this vessel of hope for every person who gets their hands on him throughout this series so it's been that's not something i thought i was gonna get like i didn't think about like oh my god this is about like building or rebuilding family and all this other stuff.

25:46Yeah, I think like, I agree. I think that the fact that Robbie died in the penultimate episode is, if you just panned back and look at like, okay, what might the flow of the season be? Not surprising. But in terms of the reality that it presents to us, the show is going to conclude by being, on the one hand, plot-wise, about something different than we thought the show was going to be driving toward. But in terms of its theme and its core focus, that that somehow heightened and further unlocked the treatise that the show is actually exploring, which, as you guys have beautifully discussed, this is a show about, obviously, loss and grief and remorse and longing.

26:33But the thing that I think that it's ultimately about is this is a show about grace. and what grace are you able to find for other people and grant to other people, but like really what are you able to grant to yourself? Yes. And that is like an incredible thing to present, I think quite subtly and in a very nuanced fashion, but still inside of like a pretty propulsive action-oriented tale and like the majesty and splendor of the vistas and the locations and the fact that you can be in somebody's like beat up living room or at this astonishing quarry or a booth at a diner or in somebody's car with a duffel bag on their lap or a person's body on their lap and like all of them are equally compelling to watch is incredible.

27:23And like the Robbie Shelley moment and just that sequence is really to me emblematic of like the genius of the show.

27:35Mallory Rubin:Because it's just like, there's no characters wasted. Yeah, no characters wasted. Shelly could just be like this background person who's like, Ray, don't do it. You know, like, and instead. Good accent work. Thanks. And then instead it's like. Plays a crucial, pivotal role. And like, but it's almost, it screws around a little bit with the cliche of like, I'm a good person. And Robbie's like, oh my God, I'm a good person. Like, what are you talking about? And that's the thing, right? It's like, okay, on the one hand, it would not be a good faith argument to say, what does it really matter in terms of the plot?

28:03Obviously, that's like hugely consequential in terms of the plot and everything that's really unfolding with Freddy and with the Dark Hearts and with Robbie and with his plan and the sacrifice and the money that'll go to me. Like all of that is carefully plotted and structured and paced and dispersed to us and the characters alike. But in terms of the good person thing, why would Robbie, who's like, who the fuck are you? And like, why would I listen to you? And why would I believe you for a second? Why are these the choices? This is also a show about grace and forgiveness and loss, but choice as well.

28:37And like, so what ultimately leads Robbie to like opt into this? Is it crazy Robbie always trying to figure out a way to make his life better and then realizes he's run out of opportunity to do that? So it has to make someone else's life better?

28:52Mallory Rubin:Or is it in retrospect, it's like Robbie's knows he's dead from the second. Right. And also, though, I like to think about like he's looking at Shelly and saying, OK, and this is what happens with. in a much more centered and like in the spotlight way at the heart of the show with Tom and Robbie, but also in a really quiet way in the corner happens with Robbie and Shelly is like, the only common ground that these characters have with each other is, I really wish I had a chance to like do something better for my family than I did before. I think he believes Shelly does and he knows he doesn't. But he's like, the only person who can help me is somebody as desperate as I am.

29:27Mallory Rubin:Because Maeve is like, what the fuck are you talking about? When he's like, let's go to Canada. you know like and honestly like they probably could have gone to Canada just with the money that they had like they may get chased and it may be dangerous and all that but like his thing about like I need this money to set us up for whatever like this island where there's no trash services is is like a dream it's a pipe dream and it's like what he needs is to basically break through to the other side where both like in these sort of like on the other side of life fate idea of it but also he needs to just end this chase he needs to stop being chased by the dark hearts stop chasing the dark hearts he needs to get rid of these drugs yeah i mean it's it's uh it's a really beautiful show and it's a really like special diamond when it comes to like using the crime stuff to like talk about much different things yeah i thought that like tom going to grasso's house incredible scene obviously yeah the confession conversation which you and andy talked about was really amazing i felt like again that was the scene that really showed how the little details in the show elevated into like god has been asking about this for five hours now build up and build up the way that he thinks about sin and guilt and doubt and forgiveness but even just something like he's basically in his pajamas right so okay if he and lizzie fuck he takes off his shirt and we see the tattoo like to build to the moment where you're finally seeing that like the extent of the what was his relationship to his faith yeah the way that that is on his body and presented to us in that moment versus an earlier moment so purposeful right i'm coming for you grasso then come like chills incredible and i like thinking about how you know obviously ethan and his trial everything with grasso like all of these things that maybe we thought we had no reason to think would be the final episode of the show or now centered, but it's like, it's in some ways the show's version of you put the cold water on your shoulder so that your heart doesn't explode when you find out what you're really heading into.

31:36So we have been acclimating without even realizing we were this entire time for all of these characters, all of these broken people to confront each other. Like, I'm really obviously quite worried about Maeve. And you can see, and I've obviously not seen the finale, You can see in the 40-second preview for the finale that they put at the end of episode six, Jason and Perry are going to find her. That's really featured in the coming in the finale teaser. So obviously that's worrying. I hope Maeve makes it out. If she does, into what kind of life? If she doesn't, I find my mind going to like, does Tom take Harper and Wyatt too?

32:16Mallory Rubin:Right. You know? He has Family Robins in it. Yeah. so and in some ways it's like the plot particulars and and weirdly the fates of the characters are like obviously they are important and they matter to me because i'm really invested in these people's lives but it's like the message feels so established already i think that the fact that the show is so heavy and really like rooted in despair and a feeling of like hopelessness but then I find it to be so hopeful as well. Like that little glimmer of, you know, that's why I loved the Tom Grosso conversation. Like if you just, if you want forgiveness, like all you have to do is ask.

32:56And the fact that that can feel impossible, like when he was saying to Robbie in episode five, you don't have to be the vagrant bird. Like it's not necessarily too late for you to come home. And do people have the ability to realize that that's true? Is it true? you know and like what is more powerful being the person on the receiving end of that or the person who can maybe grant that to somebody else right you know and even that robbie tom

33:24Mallory Rubin:conversation i just keep thinking about like what you were saying about shelly and how nine out of ten shows have shelly open the door let them go talk to ray and that's pretty much it This is just a woman who lives in this guy's house. She gets an extra bit when Rey is like, we're going to rob these guys. She's interrogated. You have that incredible Aaliyah monologue with her. Then she's kind of gone for a while and then pops out at the most crucial moment of Robbie's life pretty much when he's deciding what he's going to do. But because we've spent just those extra couple of scenes with her, yeah she goes from being someone who's in the background to someone who is now in the foreground and then even if that's just all we get with her you know what i mean like obviously she at the end of five gives uh or at the end of six gives mave the money yeah and you're just like this is incredible but also like mave is now in a tremendous amount of even more danger but even like one thing i found myself thinking about a lot was like robbie had absolutely no reason to believe that she would give me the money.

34:36Of course, I don't even know if he does. You know, like, yeah. But he's like, this is my best shot. And the thing that he's banking on, the actual, there's the literal currency of like moving the fentanyl and what was in Grasso's file, like the actual tangible thing you can hold in your hand or that you can point somebody to, but like the only actual share of courtesy between those people is like the trust that you know what it's like to be let down. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so that's the thing they're banking on at the end of the day, which is like a really remarkable thing to study over seven hours of TV.

35:03Mallory Rubin:Yes. And then another example of that is like, there's a lot of shots of birds in the show. Beautiful. And you're just kind of like... Are you a big bird guy? I'm not. I mean, you're Go-Birds, obviously. Yeah, I'm Go-Birds, but... You know, I'm not, but it's an easy thing to just be like, all right, we're going to cut to some idyllic nature shots to like fill this out. You know, dare I say, sometimes I find Mike White over-relies on that, you know and I know that there's symbolism in his cutaways and everything but I do think that you get all that stuff you get him watching these these birds and kind of drunkenly like mentioning that this one thing has shown up in his backyard yeah because that hits harder when they have this conversation in the car yes and he's like you're the vagrant you know you're like oh shit that's why we've been looking at these things for such a long time I'm glad you like it that's great you said it's easily among what were the other top shows of the year for you I mean, all right, let me issue the caveat that my brain is just shattered right now.

36:00Jet lag, also the general just decline and decay of my faculties and acuity. I'm sure I'm remembering a few things that are very important to me this year that I loved. I think my favorite, the shows that I think are the best this year so far, Andor, Task, Adolescence. Pit. Pit, Severance. There's one you're forgetting. Maybe that's my top five. What am I forgetting? Shorzy. Well, let me tell you something. I'm not forgetting Shorzy, but I was forgotten by you and Manzoukas when Shorzy rolled around. Forgotten.

36:41Mallory Rubin:I mean, I definitely told you to watch Shorzy. Yes, and then the three of us were texting about how we would pod together when the new season came out. I was here, and Kaia was like, they're podding about Shorzy. and then I came over and I stood there and waited to watch you come out of the studio. That's right. Yeah. I'm sorry. You're not. You're a very busy woman. You know, I don't want to I don't want to encumber you that you were pod. Yeah. Okay, thanks. Yeah, Shorzy would be up there. That was a great one. What else came out this year? I was higher on the season of Last of Us than many. Yeah, I think it's been enjoyed that.

37:17What else?

37:17Mallory Rubin:A consistently entertaining TV year that has four or five shows that are kind of a cut above. Yeah. and and this is one of them coming on strong but i still think on a personal note just to see the project fulfilled and or is kind of like yeah separate which is weird because one of the things that i think is united uh my favorite shows this year has been this feels like real life like whether it's the pit or adolescence and in some ways task and or is about space politics but obviously is also about revolution and has become, you know, kind of a touchstone cultural moment at this particular time in American and Western politics.

37:58I mean, obviously we've talked about this many times over the years and covering Thrones together and many other things, but, you know, that's ultimately like, that's the great magic trick of genre storytelling. Like, that's what genre storytelling at its best does. It simultaneously transports you to a world that is not yours and is ultimately not recognizable and unlocks something about your ability to think about and understand your own life and andor is just the supreme and just even as a season of tv

38:23Mallory Rubin:andor is probably like the first time since bear season two maybe that i can remember where like you'll be how you'll be like having a conversation about the best episode of a season of television and you realize that you're talking about different episodes because they're both there's so many good ones yeah um thanks for coming on today thanks for having me man uh What a treat. Enjoy the task finale. I'm really looking forward to it. I think I'm going to probably be pretty shaken by whatever happens. That's my expectation. I'm looking forward to it. I can't wait. You and Andy mentioned the possibility when you were covering episode six that this was not 100 % definitively a limited series.

39:08Mallory Rubin:There's just a lot of chatter. Which shattered me. I did not know that that was out in the ether as a possibility. I think there's just been a lot of chatter about the Inglesbyverse. Some chirping birds. That there is interest in doing more of this show in particular. I would be thrilled. I think it's a no-brainer. I hope they don't let it... Basically, what happened with Mare, which is they made it... I think they made it around or right after or during COVID. And kind of like then Kate Winslet went off and did like Kate Winslet things. And like she was like, I would love to play this character again.

39:51Mallory Rubin:But obviously her dance card gets really full up. Like, sure. I hope people love Task and that then they're like, we need to do more of it. Let's do Task and let's do it like next year. You know? That would be incredible. I hope so. Thank you so much, Mallory. Thank you, Christopher. Let's get into my interview with Doug Delgarian from They Are Gutting a Body of Water. This episode is brought to you by NOS Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard-fought place. They're all jammed inside every can of NOS Energy. High-performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets.

40:30Mallory Rubin:Go ahead, crack open a can of NOS Energy and get after it.

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41:04Mallory Rubin:This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The T-Mobile Home Run Derby is right around the corner. Might be one of the best showcases of pure power in all sports. Baseball's biggest sluggers, along with some legendary announcers. Pujols, Rizzo, Bonds, Sabathia, Al Duncan. Yeah, Hunter Pence, Matt Faskersian, a whole bunch of people. And it's the one night where you don't swing to make contact. you swing to make history. I'm interested to see what Bond says about this, actually. Anyway, it is all live from Citizens Bank Park in Philly. Watch the T-Mobile Home Run Derby live on Netflix

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42:15Mallory Rubin:All right, we're about to get into my interview with Doug from There, gutting a body of water. This is one of my favorite current bands. Their new album, Lotto, which comes out midnight Friday or late tonight, Thursday, so you'll be able to listen to it almost immediately after you hear this pod. This is easily my favorite record of the year. So I really wanted Doug to come on. Andy and I have bands on from time to time. They tend to be relatively obscure, I guess, compared to maybe some of the TV people that we have on. But if you're listening to this and you like They Are Gunning a Body of Water, I think it's a really fun interview because we go through a bunch of the songs on Lotto and talk about their creation and what Doug was kind of thinking when he was making them.

42:53Mallory Rubin:if you don't know this band i would say do you like sonic youth do you like nirvana do you like my bloody valentine i think you'd like them uh they are just an amazing underground rock band they have elements of shoegaze elements of electronic music elements of just you know really really good all indie rock i guess i it's hard to know what to call them because they are really really unique this is a philadelphia band so in you know the tradition of this podcast. We celebrate things from Philadelphia. They sound otherworldly to me, but they also sound like they can only really come from Philadelphia.

43:29Mallory Rubin:I talked to Doug about that. I talked to Doug about these songs. We talked a little bit of Birds. Go Birds. Go There, Gutting a Body of Water. Go check out Lotto. Doug, thank you so much for joining me, man. You know, I've loved this band for a minute. Lotto, the new record from There, Gutting a Body of Water, is honestly pretty far away the best thing I've heard this year. So congratulations on the record. Thanks for joining me. Dude, that. Yeah, so you're calling from Philly right now? Yeah, yeah, West Philly.

43:56Doug Dulgarian:Awesome. I'm in my warehouse.

43:57Mallory Rubin:I wanted to talk to you a little bit because, you know, me and Andy, my podcast partner have been talking about this show, Task, that's been on for a minute. It's a crime show set in Philly on HBO, but we've had Philly on The Brain. I've been back a bunch recently. When you think about it, like, what is distinctively Philadelphia about the sound of this record specifically, but the band in general?

44:20Doug Dulgarian:Listen, full transparency, I'm not from here. I've been here a long time. And I love it. And I would die for the city. I love this. I love this place. But the other thing is just like, it's kind of like an infectious thing that I think happens to you whether or not you want to, you want it to, you know what I mean? So I got here in whatever, like 2015 or 16 or something like that. And even like the stuff that I'm talking about on the record is very just like pertains to my day to day life.

44:51Mallory Rubin:I wanted to ask you, this is sort of like a tough question for me to articulate because I don't know how you would want to answer it. But one of the things that's always drawn me to the band is I feel like for better and probably for worse for you sometimes, like you're just like the listener gets to ride shotgun in your brain. Like now for me, it's always been like this musical journey with you where I'm like, how is this guy putting together these sounds together? like the whether it's a shoegaze sound or a jungle breakbeat or even just like the little samples you're triggering and all this stuff and I feel like I can feel this journey or passion you've had for music for your whole life like coming out in these records and it really really really speaks to me because I feel like I share a lot of the similar tastes with you but can you talk to me a little bit about like you as a music listener and like what you've kind of like found when you found it and how it's kind of been assimilated into now like the stuff that you're

45:50Doug Dulgarian:making yeah for sure when i was a kid um i didn't know anything about indie rock it just wasn't something that uh i listened to i just primarily listened to hip-hop like lil wayne and uh you know jadakiss uh the lox like uh all that stuff that was like primarily what i listened to my sibling went to school at sva in new york uh city and they were they were just so tapped into like cool shit that i you know it just wasn't a part of you know i didn't i didn't know anything about it and uh so then it just became like uh you know like radiator hospital yeah like that and i was just like wow this is like super cool um but then also you know when i was like 22 23 i got into uh like boards of canada and i think geo gaudi like specifically really changed the way i thought about a lot of things because like that whole record geo gaudi is like backwards i mean every song is like literally like i think they like record things forwards and just like reverse it and put it out and i always thought like it felt so specific and it felt i remember the first time I listened to it I was like I hate the way I feel when I listen to this then it just becomes like comfortable um and the same thing could be said for like my bloody valentine or whatever um I think the other thing is just like we're starving for like a monoculture but I think the monoculture kind of that exists is like a cacophony of everything all at once and I think I've always really just been a fan of so many different things and you know my whole thing is just like if you like something, why don't you just like take a swing at it?

47:36Doug Dulgarian:Just see how it feels. Do you actually feel like

47:39Mallory Rubin:you're starving for a monoculture? Like, do you wish that there was like a single publication telling you what bands to listen to and stuff like that and like kind of have that, maybe not that kind of like gatekeeping, but...

47:50Doug Dulgarian:Not a publication, but I really do wish, you know, I don't know. I feel like even up until, you know, the mid-2000s or whatever, I remember like the Sopranos was such a big deal. Maybe that's, maybe that's a cool thing about the internet too, is that everybody is just like, into their own thing, you know, like, I don't know, but, but I really, I love the feeling of just like everybody knowing what this thing is. You know what I mean?

48:21Mallory Rubin:I think the cool thing about the internet is, for instance, like somebody can hear this interview. I know I had this experience with your band where you can just like lose yourself in it and you can watch these clips of you guys. playing live in a circle in a sonic drive-in or whatever you can really like immerse yourself in something so fast but I think for you and me probably who still remember a pre-digital life like there was some kind of romance to the way you're describing getting into Radiator Hospital and listening to Jadakiss tapes and stuff like that and like finding it in a little bit of a slower way it feels like I almost burned through my obsessions like super fast now.

49:01Doug Dulgarian:that's yes exactly i think that is the ultimate um conclusion to like a lack of monoculture is that you're super thrilled about something um but it doesn't have the staying power that it wants yes you know what i mean like i and i think that um that i don't know if it's scary um it's just uh i don't know there's something really magical about uh things that were just like a part of

49:31Mallory Rubin:the zeitgeist you know yeah yeah um i don't know um let's talk a little bit about lotto because uh it feels very much like you guys playing in a room and it feels like a record i cannot wait to see you guys play live because it just feels like it's been it's been dialed up to to be to be heard in that environment um was that like a big thing for you where you were like i want to i want to feel like this feels like a band right now yeah for sure i think we were getting to a point where we were so niche uh and just so like we were becoming a meme you know what i mean

50:11Doug Dulgarian:it was getting weird and like that's cool i'm all i you know you can you can listen to my music and and determine that like i'm super into experimentation and i'm super into things uh exploring and uh figuring out you know uh new ways to do things or whatever but i think at the end of the day with this one i was just like dude i just want to get back to the basics like what do we sound like and also like you know by the time we were making we made gestures ben and it was just me and ben and our friend evan playing bass it was just a three-piece um by the time i made destiny XL, it was like a cycling cast of people.

50:53Doug Dulgarian:Um, and they were changing constantly by the time we got to lucky styles, it was, um, the solid four piece that we have now. So this record as a follow. And then we did expansion pack too, which was really just like super far out. Um, I wanted to just like go as many places as I wanted to with that one. Um, so for this one, it was like, let's just bring it back to reality and just see what that feels like um and honestly it's cool it's exciting i got real into uh nirvana's in utero and just like reading about it and reading about like uh what that felt like i love creating things that feel almost artificial yeah like uh like the like the blue raspberry flavor of candy or something like that you know what i mean because It's like, it really is the best flavor.

51:46Doug Dulgarian:It's phenomenal. It's strange and it doesn't exist in nature. But then there's also something about just eating a strawberry. Yes. Where you're like, this is nice too. And it tastes like it looks. Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's no like, it's not like a mystery airheads flavor where you're like, I have no idea what the fuck this thing is. So yeah, I don't know. It was cool to get back to that. And also just a lot of the things that I was talking about on the record or just where I was in my life. And I think where we all were in our lives, you know, we just wanted to make a record that we could recreate live.

52:25Sometimes that's like, that's hard.

52:28Doug Dulgarian:You know, you do all it's cool to explore, man. It's cool to like do all these other different things and, you know, see where things can go. But like we tried playing Kmart Amen break live probably like five times. And it's cool. it just doesn't hit the same way and we just wanted to be like yo but like Delta P does or like Behind the Waterfall does but it's a totally different thing when we play it live and both of those are off Lucky Styles but like with the Lotto songs it's just like we could just play any of them

52:57Mallory Rubin:I think my favorite song by you guys is still Fake 20 and that feels like it could be on Lotto you know it feels like

53:05Doug Dulgarian:yeah things move in cycles dude I think this is kind of like a revisitation of what it felt like to make gestures, Ben, you know? And I think it's kind of, it just kind of always moves in cycles like that. And, you know, yeah, gestures, Ben felt similarly where it was like, it, we just kind of live tracked it and it was, I don't know if we live tracked it, but it, but it feels so live. But yeah, I don't know. um it's really it's been refreshing to get into just like of just being yeah you know like you know what i mean like at the end of the day it's like all this other stuff all this jungle stuff all this like and i love all that stuff don't you know what i mean like uh no shade at all but it was definitely just so much cooler to just be like we're just going to be a band for this that's cool and see without yeah it was enjoyable to to create too because it was just it was so

54:05Mallory Rubin:much easier so like um i want to ask you about a couple of the songs so i'm going to start in the middle of the record uh you know and we're not going to go track by track or anything like that but i just had i want i just had to like ask you about a couple of things when i was listening to the uh promo version of the album like on repeat i often wouldn't be able to see what track i was listening to so like the first few times it through and i get to slow cross stick and i'm like damn this sounds like Fugazi this is and then I was like well dude it's from instrument it's

54:35Doug Dulgarian:fucking slow cross I was so excited it's the it's the opening track on the not of the record itself but um in the in the documentary and I just always remember like watching that and being like holy it just feels and it's such a simple song but it just feels so powerful and honestly I don't think we recreated it in a way that's a bit is uh I don't even know if it does it justice it was just like I just wanted to do it because you know I mean like uh morally I really love those guys and I've always you know I've always been a fan of just like I don't know just everything and I remember the first time I heard an instrument I think I think I thought I knew what Fugazi sounded like and then i heard instrument in like uh in uh quad cities iowa just like after this show we played maybe in like 2015 and i was like this is crazy this sounds like dust or something this is like some other thing that just like i thought i knew what fugazi sounded like and then i listened to that record and i was just like holy smokes it's um so yeah i've always i love that record that record in particular instrument soundtrack is just like easily one of my favorites and uh yeah so i just wanted to like it's it's just a nod it's also like a middle of the record kind of like

56:01Mallory Rubin:stretch where you're just like yeah man we're just gonna like like lose it like it's almost like shake it off and now we're gonna finish the album but when i heard it and i was thinking you know like instrument was just like a vhs tape that we just had on in our apartment in boston when I was living there when I was a kid forever. It just felt like it was on a loop and you would just walk in and be like, oh, Guy's about to climb through the basketball hoop now. Yeah, yes, yes. But that period of time for Fugazi, which is like actually like that Red Medicine and Hits instrument era is like my favorite, but it made this connection in my head between like kind of what you guys are doing and what they were doing.

56:41Mallory Rubin:And they were like demons in the studio. Like they're doing so much cool stuff on those albums and, but they could still like tear your head off live and we're still like this incredible rock band. So it was, I thought it was just an awesome, an awesome like little like Easter egg to throw in there. I wanted to ask you about Sour Diesel. One of the cool things on Lotto is your voice is both at once much more audible, but also it almost feels like, I know you're, you're singing about yourself and I know you're singing about some incredibly intense shit but you almost like are changing the character of the voice on a couple of different songs like sometimes it's spoken word sour diesel has this like gorgeous vocal harmony going on like can you tell me a little bit about that song you're listening to pinback yeah dude i'm like a huge rob crowhead and uh they always i don't know there's this song tripoli that they have

57:37Doug Dulgarian:and it's off like their first record uh this is a pinback cd and there's there's just these like interlocking vocal melodies that i was always just like that's such a cool way to like make a song um and i've always just been really into that um so for that one it was like i don't know there's a demo on sour diesel um that we'll probably put out like sometime next week with a video or whatever and it's just a totally different song um yeah yeah it's it's it's way different um it's way more sad and you know whatever it was so i remember bringing that one to these guys and being like yo this is how it goes and uh it almost feels like uh another another kind of uh inspiration for that was like um joyce man yeah um like constant headache like just how that song feels man it's just so good those are those are you know two timeless songs i i think good music just speaks for itself you can pigeonhole it you can do whatever like oh that's pop punk i don't like that or whatever i think anybody that listens to constant headache anybody that listens to tripoli whatever you're just like this is phenomenal like and i think that was that's always kind of what i'm trying to get at it's just like you know people always want to call us shoegaze and they want to be like yo you're in this realm or this realm or whatever but i think like at the end of the day lotto was kind of like an exploration and just being like let's just make good music let's just see what that feels like to be in a room and just make good music together and uh so yeah it was an exploration in that way too and not trying to lean too heavy into being one way or the other you know um but yeah that song in particular um i like that song a lot i i like to demo even more like a like a lot forward to hearing the sad version of this yeah it's it's depressing but it's but i didn't want to do that also like i don't know lotto doesn't need to be like sure i'm talking about some really heavy shit or whatever but we all go through shit my shit is not worse than anybody else's um and i think uh i don't know i really don't want to ever put out anything where it's like i i think that's the hard part about like being an addict in recovery and talking about the real truths of the of that is there it could be seen as some sort of romanticization but it's really it's i really don't want it to be i really want it to be like hey you know i struggle just like you struggle you know and i think that's like um that's really that's really the the message of the record in general i mean the last song herpin we're like i'm talking about like a plane landing when and that that actually happened We were on this plane and I thought it was, it was scary as shit.

1:00:28Doug Dulgarian:I hate flying. I didn't grow up flying or whatever. And yeah, but the plane lands. And I think that's like kind of the thing that I'm trying to get at too. It's just like, you know, I don't know. Whatever. I just went on a tangent. No, not at all, man.

1:00:43Mallory Rubin:I mean, I was wondering, you know, when we were coming into this, I was like, you know, on the fence about how much to ask you about the lyrical content of it. because I'm sure it's difficult to feel like you opened a vein basically on this record and you're so honest and then you have to forget like have to like perform it every night you also have to talk about it with interviewers and journalists who are like hey man so tell me about this tell me about that and I I do have my personal so issues with this some of the stuff that you've talked about and it's not something I want to talk about every day you know what I mean yeah

1:01:17Doug Dulgarian:not at all not at all i mean that's the thing is like i i learned pretty early on uh it's weird when you first get clean uh you tell everybody you know what i mean you're like hey what's up i'm i'm doug i'm i'm uh recovering dope cleaned and you know whatever and then like years later you get to this point where you're like i don't need to tell my boss that i'm a fucking junkie you know what i mean like i don't need to tell certain people this stuff like because it's just so personal or whatever um and so i kind of learned that a lot but it's funny yeah it's funny to be like, you know, I've always like veiled everything.

1:01:50Doug Dulgarian:That's another thing about a lot of too, is it's just very out in the open. And a lot of the other stuff that I'm talking about on the other records is the same stuff. Yeah, but it's like hidden beneath layers of noise. Yeah. So it's weird to like do all these interviews now and people are like, what's up, you fucking junkie? Like, what's this about? You know what I mean? You're like, oh man. You should just start lying and be like, oh no, actually this song's about Saquon Barkley. like yeah totally they're all about sequo marketing ultimately especially this um american food

1:02:23Mallory Rubin:when i heard this i was like i this this band could do anything like what is going on here um it's got this incredible break the scratching the harmonies but the the pitched up stuff tell me about putting together and this is the first single now you know we're not talking to beyonce I hear it's like it's a single, but it's like part of an album. But like you obviously wanted to make a statement with putting this out first.

1:02:48Doug Dulgarian:Totally. Yeah. I mean, well, that's like the whole thing. That's our whole thing all the time is like red herring. Yeah. You know, just like, you know, I wanted to, you know, we did. I think things move in cycles. And this is really important to like at the end of at the end of at the end of Lucky Styles. the last song is 23 till infinity and that kind of, and it's a totally different song than the rest of the songs. And that kind of alludes to a different, a different thing. Like the next LP will be this different thing. And I did that intentionally. Um, and then, you know, um, after putting out all the, like the SoundCloud things, uh, with like Swan, like it was funny to just like, kind of throw a red herring and be like, yeah, we got this live record on deck.

1:03:39Doug Dulgarian:and it's like this whole thing of just us as a band but um we're gonna put out this really weird song um and and honestly with that song it just sometimes it happens where they just come together in a matter of uh hours and you're just like i'm done with it this one's done and it just feels right um and that one just kind of happened and i was just like yeah this is good i remember sending it to the rest of the band and they were like this is cool and then uh you know i don't even know if it fits on the record but i think that's probably why it's really great for it to be like i think it does like thematically um but like sonically i don't know if it fits on the record but it definitely uh it was well worth it to make that the first single you know what i mean just

1:04:25Mallory Rubin:it was also really cool because there's a version of that song that i think it have like 15 more things on it you know like you could have like all these other layers and this just had like the five perfect parts to it and i it's a it's a constant repeat for me um the last one i wanted to ask you about was bass i came just because this one this is up there with diesel with like my favorite on the records and it's just the guitar playing is so sick on this song um this was the one where i was like this is this is probably going to be so fun to play live like 50 times for you guys um this and and and herp and like both like really great strong end of the

1:05:00Doug Dulgarian:album based on what's what's going on there so there's this band called uh horse cops from philadelphia and they're just one of my favorite bands of all time and i think uh you know uh i always draw a lot of inspiration from my friend josh who uh like kind of heads that band or whatever and uh it just feels like a fun horse cop song and i i i don't know i i really that's a philly song oh you know what i'm saying like that's that's if i was like yo what is what is like philadelphia sound like it's like snoozer yeah it's like uh you know like and and i think uh it's like you know sun organ or whatever and i think um that song is just kind of a celebration of that um yeah it's it's a it's a i love playing that one that one is really fun i love all the harmonics that just feels so good and also like for that one the vocal melody just follows the guitar part um which i don't frequently do that's like a pavement thing right like malcolm's does

1:06:05Mallory Rubin:like they'll just do like my vocal follows this lead guitar part yeah it's cool totally yeah and

1:06:10Doug Dulgarian:i think like i don't know i often try to figure out what the best melody would be to stand out from everything but for that one i was just like let's just get it right in there and see how it feels to just follow the guitar part. And yeah, it's an enjoyable one. We're putting out a video for that one early next week that I'm really stoked on.

1:06:29Mallory Rubin:All right, man. Well, I'm not going to take up any more of your time. Thank you so much for coming on and thank you for making this record. I can't wait to see you guys when you come out to LA.

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