‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Is ‘Game of Thrones’ at Its Best. Plus, the Future of ‘Star Wars,’ ‘Industry’ S4E2, and the ‘Landman’ S2 Finale.

22:55There were several updates about some of the new projects and what they're going to be doing. Dave Filoni is taking over the creative side of Lucasfilm.

23:02Andy Greenwald:He's co-president with a woman who's been the head of business affairs, whose name I will Google to get correct as you continue your thought. You mentioned the idea of Luke Skywalker has to show up in The Mandalorian at a certain point because we need to make this pretty traditional TV show of like an adventure of the week kind of situation into a bigger deal than it already is. That was always really amusing to me because they struck gold with a Boba Fett looking guy and a little Yoda. They could have spun that out for a little while longer before they got to the force. But I wonder whether or not some of that was the circumstances of Star Wars, of Filoni's obvious ascendance within the company up to being the creative director and the sort of president of, for whatever his title is, of Lucasfilm, and whether or not that had anything to do with what the storytelling choices were on Mandalorian specifically.

24:06Now, that's Favreau as well. You know what I mean? And he maybe has big ambitions anyway for that story. But I don't know. I mean, like, there's another world where Kathy Kennedy stays in charge of Lucasfilm, and it has, like, an ironclad, like, I'm going to be here for 10 years because the movies have been successful. And Mandalorian maybe stays in its lane a little bit more. I don't, I'm not sure.

24:30Andy Greenwald:I am not optimistic about the next few years of Lucasfilm, I would say. Well, the next few years are kind of spoken for. Yes. But I, well, I think there's a couple things to be said here. One, like, for as justified as much of the criticism that has come, Kathy, a lot of the criticism is justified. I think when you just look at how that sequel trilogy turned out and the complete absence of the multiplexes of anything for a long time. Yeah. Like, this is not great stewardship, I would say. you could flip it and you could also say who else but Kathy Kennedy with her the security she had in that position due to her reputation and relationships in the industry could have gotten it as far as it did in terms of getting that honestly fairly cursed trilogy across the finish line sure which was which was cooked from the beginning when Disney was like in order to justify this acquisition we need a sequel up and running within 18 months like we need to do this yeah it was it was the opposite of what I was just sort of, you know, describing as a sort of like gentle, slow food, bespoke cooking of Game of Thrones sequels, which is also probably highly inaccurate.

25:40Andy Greenwald:But it was the opposite of that. It was like, we have a deadline and we have a date and we have shareholders to report to. Let's get these things moving. Once you start, I mean, when you start playing catch up from the beginning, you're, I don't think you can ever actually get in front of things. I think it was also just like a decision that they made that even though that they were going to push the ball forward with a new trilogy, it was going to essentially be a remake of the first film. You know, with Force Awakens, which is in retrospect a pretty decent movie but beat for beat is essentially a new hope.

26:08I think it was always going to be you create this expectation among fans that it's going to be fan service. If A Force Awakens had been some brave new step forward and about different kinds of characters in that world I think maybe we're talking about something else. It also may not have been that successful.

26:25Andy Greenwald:It's also the idea it's really interesting to see what these are relatively unique jobs and relatively new jobs. Almost in the same way that we talk about showrunners sort of becoming a more public figure and a more important, like, recognized thing. Yeah, franchise GMs. Franchise GMs. Yeah. James Gunn, Kevin Feige. Mike Lombardi. Like, there's a list of people, you know, who have the vision above and below. Now Brandon Beaton. Yeah, exactly. Waiting for that call from Baloney. Maybe. When you hire Kathy Kennedy, what you're saying is you want someone with experience producing films in that job.

27:01Andy Greenwald:And, you know, she was quite candid on the way out the door in a way that only she can with the stature that she has already accrued before this. What she talked about, how Solo was a mistake in her eyes, she owned it in a way. And I thought that was pretty interesting. She also was like the Mangold script with Bo Williman for like this Knights of the Republic thing, I think, is awesome, but is on hold. Yes, well, it's also probably on hold because James Mangold, I don't know if it's related or unrelated, was like, I'm going to take my talents to Paramount. Well, he's directing a Timothee Chalamet movie at Paramount.

27:33Andy Greenwald:But he also signed an overall deal at Paramount. I know these guys can jump around. No one is untradeable that's going to come up in our sports thing. I just think it's like lots of people seem to sign overalls and then immediately do something else with. Well, no, people sign, yes, fair, but usually not within the, like they make something for TV or there's something that predated the deal. Anything is still possible. We don't know actually what these deals say for him, but I do think it's interesting that he wasn't like, ah new blood in the building also i'm sure that they're holding the wheel pretty tight over at disney i'm sure they knew for a long time as it's been reported that kathy kennedy was going to be leaving and day filoni was going to be taking over and so that the development process at disney has probably been slowed down to something of a crawl i can vouch for that yeah so why not if you're james bangold and it's like life's pretty short like yeah i agree chalamet wants to make a motorcycle heist movie i agree and i'll do it yeah and as she says in these interviews like to do one of these, it's at least three years of your life and your career, if not more.

28:28Andy Greenwald:And she admitted something. I don't remember if it had been reported before, but like she and her team met with everybody. And a lot of this was rumored. A lot of things have been confirmed by the people like offhand or off the record. But she straight up said like, yeah, we met with Vince Gilligan about doing a Star Wars TV show. We have had multiple meetings with David Fincher about making a movie here. She can have those meetings. I think the difference is we put Filoni in the top chair. So what are you getting there? It is more the James Gunn model in the sense of this is a guy with a sensibility who has likes and dislikes and will be, for better or for worse, the creative engine.

29:02And has a very clear idea about what he thinks Star Wars is about and a very clear idea about what the timeline is and what the values of the franchise are.

29:11Andy Greenwald:Yes. And I think that those—his opinions are, I don't think this is controversial to say, fairly conservative. I don't mean politically. I just mean like there is a tech, he's a strict constitutionalist. He's a Lucas originalist. Yeah. Yes, he is. And so I think that there's value in the value that, that, that Kathy clearly recognized. And like, here's a guy who has an engine of stuff and stories and perspectives. And that can help, that can help fill our dance card when, when part of the mandate of juggling this company is, you know, kickstart the big movie furnace, but also keep the TV fires going.

29:45I think she did. I have no, I have no idea if it's being perceived this way, but if I were Dave Filoni, you know I would be like you'd have a different hat that was a that was a tough interview that she did yeah I thought the last part of that interview where she's like Scott Burns and Steven Soderbergh did a great job with this Kylo Ren script Donald Glover is turned in a Lando script the James Mangold script is mold breaking Taika Waititi script is hilarious here's five movies or whatever you know that are sitting here ready to rock yep ready to go in terms of their script and it's like have fun with Ahsoka yes that is you're correctly reading so if I were Dave Filoni I'd be like you could have gone out and been like here are the things that Dave is developing here are the things that matter to him and all the other stuff I'll let him comment but

30:34Andy Greenwald:instead it's just like well we've got this fun live action cartoon movie with a you know a wrestling and even her being like I talked to Fincher and Vince Gilligan is kind of like if I had my way but also in an interview she's like well Dave got some real reps directing human beings on Ahsoka season one she says that like I would say I would say that I just tea leaves this is really more of a the town conversation and I'm sure the town capital T capital T yes and actually lowercase but I mean like Matt Bell and his podcast I'm very curious to hear how he covers the story in the weeks and months going forward I think one of the major takeaways by the way this news broke is that Dave Filoni for all of his abilities and resources and connections to this universe may not have the, what was it called?

31:21Andy Greenwald:The ministry, what did Tony call the ministry of propaganda in Andor Season 2? He may not have that. Yeah. Because this did not cater to... Might not matter because he has the fans. Does he still have the fans? I think he has the base. I think he has the base. You think he's captured the base? I do. I think that there is a like, I think there is probably a Star Wars celebration watching long video breakdowns of historical moments in Star Wars lore, cares about the timeline, cares about the movements of what's happening on the outer rim at any given moment. And I think he speaks for them. Could we name them?

32:01Andy Greenwald:Are they like MAGA? Make Ahsoka great again. Has that been used? Because I think they are like, you could fire them up and you could point them in a direction. do what you want. Jokes aside, I think this is a political job in addition to a creative and producerial job. And I think that this was a rocky rollout. Especially with the timing of her leaving, you know, a couple months before Mandalorian and Grogu comes out, which I think you and I have big floating question marks about. Yeah. It doesn't look awesome. It doesn't necessarily look like something we want. I think that I, whatever the book of Boba Fett turning into a shadow third Mandalorian season.

32:45Yeah. Going into like kind of an adjacent Ahsoka story. I think that's when I was kind of like, this is not really like a show I'm really that super interested in anymore. I'll go see the movie. Yeah. But I'll be very interested after the year that we just got through of the kinds of blockbusters that we saw and with the Odyssey coming, what it feels like to watch like a volume movie.

33:17Andy Greenwald:Yes, and I think that the other story coming out of this week that we should comment on, like the shadow story behind the announcement of the change at the top of Lucasfilm was the subhead story that Dave Filoni hated Andor, which is not on the record. He has said on the record what a huge admirer he has of it. Yes, my point is this is why the Ministry of Propaganda needs to step up here. Because the fact that that was such a heavily pushed story. And that is a rumor that I heard before any of this happened. Like that was... On Twitter or like... No, people talking. Yeah, right. That's the story.

33:53A guy comes up to you at Canyon Coffee and says, sir, with tears in his eyes. I can't afford Canyon Coffee on a podcast salary. What are you talking about? Look at all the beverages you've acquired. You got this for me free.

34:03Andy Greenwald:So thank you, Daniel Eck or his successor. Yeah. The fact that that is a narrative that continues to exist when, in fact, the best version of Star— Forget partisanship. For once, Chris. For once. Let me do my CBS Evening News wrap-up here. Okay, Tony. The best version of this would be him saying, what an honor to steer this great galactic star cruiser that has room for all of these shows, and we continue to generate stories in all areas and listen to the best version of every story idea. that would be a successful pivot for the new era of Star Wars that doesn't feel like retreat. Do you think that is and should be the format, the philosophy of any of these franchise GMs?

34:49That there's tons of different stories and different ways to tell those stories within this great storytelling terrain? Like terrain? Or should it be the sort of, what would it be, like phase three era Feige, who's like everything is a piece of something else. It's important that there's a house style, that there's consistency in the writing, that there's a consistency in the tone. When Marvel kind of adopted, everybody talked like Tony Stark in some ways. you know everything was kind of glib even if like Steve was tight and Thor was from you know like Asgard but everybody was like I have jokes

35:36Andy Greenwald:no one got funnier than Thor yeah Hemsworth is mad apparently but that you could take Taika Waititi and you could take Ryan Coogler and you could take James Gunn the Russos and James Gunn and have it all kind of click together that's and Chloe Zhao don't leave Eternals out of this how could I the funniest of all the movies have you rocked him yet have you I'm on the record with my feelings about Hamnet. That you will not be watching it. That I am the... If Hamnet wins Best Picture, will you watch it the next day? I mean, I haven't seen The King's Speech. You know what I mean? Ever since when did that become the standard?

36:08You haven't seen Green Book a couple of times, though.

36:10Andy Greenwald:Well, that's my go-to. That's my cheer-me-up movie. Every MLK day. Especially every MLK day, yes. Do you see what I'm saying? Or should it be... Because for the... I don't know that you would say Game of Thrones has a GM. that has a very vocal, creative originator, like in Martin, and he can have friendly or adversarial relationships with Benny Alvin Weiss or Ryan Condal or Ira Parker. And then it's the HBO machine that kind of makes everything what it is. Yeah, I think there's no one right answer because a lot of, for brief periods, different versions of each of these models has worked. I think the one thing to consider when we talk about these, and we have these conversations constantly, Star Wars and Game of Thrones exist on the history as a timeline model where there are no alternate universes.

37:05Andy Greenwald:These are all nodes on a timeline that happened and interacted with each other and you can't really, as much as you may want to, you cannot retcon things. Sure. Marvel and DC exist in the multiverse of madness where anything can happen at any time and you can just reboot. And Star Trek, for what it's worth, not that we even engaged with a new Star Trek show starring Paul Ciamatti and Holly Hunter, which premiered last week, so look how far we done fell. That's also on a, like a, we can just reboot and alternate versions of these people. The funny thing is that if Paul Giamatti and Holly Hunter were in a Taylor Sheridan show, I would be like, I'm here.

37:39I'm reporting for duty. You're like, finally.

37:43Andy Greenwald:Come home, Holly. Come home, Paul. So, I think that, I think that either model can work. I think the big test for the one creative voice model in terms of DC will be lanterns, which very clearly was designed to be something slightly different. And then Gunn... And then Gunn took over, and we'll see. I'm not saying he meddled, because I don't think that's the case at all. I don't even think that... I don't think that's a plausible timeline that he meddled. But can you be both? I think also the big test of Gunn's situation is going to be the mini-Batman. It's doing the 50... Mini, mini, mini, mini-Batman.

38:23Do the voice. Do the voice. Do you know what I mean? Yes. That'll be the part where it's just like, it'll be a test of the audience as well. I mean, I don't think the Matt Reeves Batman and the Bold and the Brave, is that what it is?

38:38Andy Greenwald:The Bold and the Beautiful is the soap opera, the Brave and the Bold. The Brave and the Bold is the gun developed Batman story. Yes, which they still haven't pulled the trigger. Right. I think that that would be a big test of whether people are enjoying a sort of in-their-face multiverse. Not even a multiverse, because that is the thing. I would say that Marvel kind of cheat-coded their way into like, this is how we do this, is by having, we can still roll Patrick Stewart on out there if we want to, but I would say that the over-reliance on multiversal storytelling by Marvel is part of the reason why I think people got a little bit fatigued with it.

39:16Andy Greenwald:Because nothing matters if you can just reset it. Extremely fatigued with it, And now they have been forced to go all in on what will undoubtedly be the most expensive two-film series ever made to basically make as much money as possible and wring out the towel on this one and then set up a hard reboot that people might be ready and interested in watching. I think the thing that's relevant about Star Wars is what is the—there's no there there anymore. Like, I understood the obsession with the Skywalker story because that felt like the North Pole of anyone's interest in this. And if it was just there to play with, like if CGI Mark Hamill was on the table for any of these stories in the historical timeline, why not hit it to get that little dopamine in the series to make it feel important?

40:05Andy Greenwald:Then when they went away from it, tonally and developmentally, it was hard to understand the connection because something like the Acolyte, which I think was put together with the best of intentions and a lot of creativity and good spirit, felt neither here nor there because it felt tethered to a version of Jediism that is very Filoni-esque in terms of its seriousness and everything. So it didn't have any... It tried to bring a different point of view to the same energy, which I think is a challenge. Andor was completely different and worthwhile, but what is the main timeline? What is the Avengers movie of the Star Wars thing?

40:41Andy Greenwald:And I guess it is the Simon Kinberg trilogy that he has been working on, which I would imagine is episode 10, 11 and 12. Well, and Starfighter is set after the events of the most recent trilogy. So that's where they're going to be doing their developmental work. But it is hard when, especially they've essentially, since Disney took over, they have maximized a lot of it, but they've also frittered away another decade, which could have been spent sowing the seeds of something new. Yeah. I know that you don't pay a lot of attention to theme park or comic book news because you're too busy reading the histories of Westeros.

41:20Andy, I have this saved. The StarWars.com announcement about Galaxy's Edge. Do you want to talk about this? This is so wild. If people aren't familiar, Jason Gallagher and I actually did a long podcast about this while you were making Briarpatch, I think when Galaxy's Edge first came out.

41:38Andy Greenwald:Did you go? No. Excuse me. Why would I go to Galaxy's Edge? I just thought you were ready to share that you were a Disney adult, but I guess not. No, and it is a park in Disney World where there is some narrative. You're on like a planet called Batuu. Don't look at me like I know. Ask Kaya. It's her generation stuff. There was also like a hotel there that was like$1 ,500 a night or something. There was like some sort of like you're on a starship in this hotel. I don't know if that still is there or if they had to shutter that because of this economy. But they have now had to go back to the drawing board.

42:14Not the drawing board, but they've had to adjust the timeline of Batuu so that they can have Darth Vader and Princess Leia and Han Solo walking around. Because people are like, come on, dog. Yeah, because like, but Rey gets to say, by the way.

42:29Andy Greenwald:Right. But all the other new, because I think it is like an immersive, you're in a, you know, someone could tap you on the shoulder and be like, do you want to make a, do the Kessel Run or whatever? And you could be like, let me finish my blue milk first. Like it's pretty, it's pretty your vibe. But let's just make it clear. But yes, I guess that they wanted to, maybe, I don't know if attendance was dwindling or interest engagement. So now Darth Vader walks through it. But the funniest part to me is they are so yoked to the dorkiest parts of our culture that they had to commission a Marvel Comics miniseries explaining why Luke Skywalker and company are now in this invented world.

43:09Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Because you're going to show up with a fucking$30 funnel cake and two screaming eight-year-olds. And you're going to be like, I don't think Greedo survived to be around now. Excuse me. Excuse me. Should we do a field trip to Galaxy's Edge? Would you come with us? Yeah, sure. What holiday would you like me to do that on? Russia shot. Yeah, there you go. Thank you. As Lottie Evinger would have wanted. As Lottie Evinger would have wanted. Oh, God. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah, it's... I just feel like when... I'll make it personal. When I was five or six years old and I went to Walt Disney World in Florida and Captain Hook was walking around near Chippendale, I wasn't like, wait a fucking second.

43:56Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Explain this. Yeah. Walt, you know, I got it. Maybe we're a little too far down the rabbit hole. All of this is to say, just to take it briefly back to Thrones, is that I actually weirdly do think Thrones supports this. Yes, I agree with you. I think that while there are people who are probably like Thrones originalists and really are like, we need to get back to the basics here. And this is about this, this, and this. There seems to be a little bit more of a healthy adversarial relationship between the fans and the author, especially because the author has not finished these books. And I think that this show shows a great way forward for the franchise itself.

44:39At the end of season two of House of the Dragon, I was like, until they figure out what happens the day after Game of Thrones ends. I don't know that this is going to work to keep doing things that people can easily spoil for themselves, to keep doing things that ultimately are going to be living in the shadow of this one of the great series of I mean, aside from the last bit of it, one of the great series we've ever had. And now I'm like, oh, I guess you could do all sorts of things with this story.

45:12Andy Greenwald:I think the one aspect of fandom, and I mean this respectfully, that is challenging for Hollywood to reckon with or feed is a deep desire that fans of various worlds or franchises have to just kind of be in that world. That's why you have the Galaxy's Edge thing, sort of the immersive fan experience. That's why it's not just that there's a robust fanfiction community. It's that a lot of best-selling hardcover books emerge from fanfiction. Yeah. And it's something that is, you know, I understand why it's challenging because you can't, as much as I would like, you know, a genial kind of freeform hangout show about almost anything.

45:59Andy Greenwald:TV demands plot. TV demands, I mean, it's a different, it's a different medium. but I think that the Game of Thrones world as awful and violent as it is it's the same thing like there are these romanticy series that I haven't read but like the fourth wing series and I don't think it's just I'm going to go on a limb it's not just the dragon fighting that people like these are enormous books with entire societies and romance and things built into them that's as much fandom as the destruction of Sokovia you know what I mean and I think that you've got to get that that's my federal holiday That's what we're observing.

46:34Andy Greenwald:You haven't forgotten. You haven't forgotten. We're actually taking Thursday off because that's the anniversary of Sokovia. The Sokovia Accords are more important to you than I believe. Do you think that we would have been hitting Sokovia with tariffs by now? I think the Sokovia Accords have proven to be more... Had Ultron not dropped it on the ground? Sokovia Accords have proven to be more... had proven to be stronger than the NATO alliance. I think that's... that's canon now. Um... Anything else you want to say about Night of the Seven Kingdoms? We've said so much not about Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

47:08Andy Greenwald:I really enjoyed it. And I think the ultimate thing that we only mentioned in passing is the average episode length is like 35 minutes. And Mark, are you like... God, I love it. I love it. I'm thrilled by that. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com.

47:46This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about, an outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. from us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn more at vw.com. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like analyzing plot twists, TaxAct guides you step-by-step to make sure you get your maximum refund.

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49:00Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a 2 %er. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply. Let's talk about industry. Okay. You're saving Landman. Okay. Yeah, we can save Landman. Industry season four, episode two, The Commander and the Gray Lady, which is essentially Mickey Down and Conrad K doing A Christmas Carol. This show is a series for what it's worth. big suckers for Christmas. There's been a few Christmas episodes.

49:32Andy Greenwald:Chris, you've been with me in the UK these last two Novembers. There is nothing bigger in England than Christmas. Than Crimbo? They fucking love it. They're obsessed. And they are not beating the Goodfellas allegations with the soundtrack of this one and the, you know, like, it's just the overall vibe. I saw some people online talking about, you know, we're going to see, we're seeing like goat level television right now. And I don't know whether it's a testament to the fact that I just expect this from the show now. Like I expect television at this level. But I watched this episode twice, actually.

50:14Like I watched it once just straight through and I was like.

50:17Andy Greenwald:How much time did you take between the viewings? I just immediately ran it back. No, I took the second half of the Bears game between the viewings. Because I just wanted to see how it felt knowing where it was going to end. Knowing the scaffolding and the shape. Yeah, sure. And it's just an extraordinary piece of work, man. We just spent a long time talking about Thrones. If I had told you that this is where Kit Harington was going to be, would you ever have believed me? Now, one thing we didn't mention in the George R. R. Martin interview, he alludes to the idea that the Jon Snow sequel series didn't go forward because Kit Harington basically wanted to do what he did last night in industry.

50:59Andy Greenwald:Because I'm, they made me fat! Yep. So in this episode, Henry Muck, we find him, you know, we saw him at the end of the first episode crushing up pills and playing a harpsichord. And that shot takes place pretty much at the end of the first act of the second episode. The timing of these episodes is intricate. Yes. There's moments that sync up with 401. Yes. And then there's a deeper story, and then there's moments that are completely different events. That's why one might want to do a second viewing. Yeah, and I was curious about Harper and Whitney and that stuff. This would be their second night.

51:41Yes. So, in any case, in this episode, Harry Muck is losing his battle with depression at precisely the moment that his father lost his in his life, which is the 40th birthday. And on the night of Henry's 40th birthday, he's visited by a series of characters, some of which are real, like Whitney Halberstrom and his uncle Alexander and an old priest and a mysterious guest at this huge, lavish, dangerous liaison's Peter Greenway party that he's having for his 40th birthday, a guy named the commander shows up right when he is really going off the deep end. I believe he's dropped acid? I think he's dropped acid.

52:22And he comes into this banquet where all of his friends and his wife and his colleagues are there and members of the labor government. And the woman who defeated him in a by-election. And he's just pissed out of his mind. And this guy shows up and takes him out on a night on the small town that he basically owns. and we just get, you know, a dark night of the soul with Henry Muck for the most part. And then the sort of second half of this episode is Yasmin's relationship to what's happening to Henry, what she wants to do with her life, what she wants to do with her marriage and what she sees for her marriage.

53:00Before we get into the details of it and sort of some of the different moments, why don't you tell me what you thought of this episode?

53:05Andy Greenwald:Well, I want to just, before I forget, because I might forget otherwise, What you were saying about people showering this episode with Hosannas specifically for something I'm going to shower with Hosannas for, the audacity and maximalism of it, but also specifically some of the dialogue. I think the structure bears repeated investigation and also praise because to with a relative economy it's a 60 minute episode but a relative economy of screen time to send Yasmin on a journey that earns its counterweight place with the Henry journey so that they can end in a together is really hard to do that is like next level scripting and plotting and structure particularly when you add in the challenge of the slightly skewed overlapping timeline and the fact that they are essentially rebooting the show, as we mentioned last week, with new characters and new stakes.

53:58Andy Greenwald:So that alone is really remarkable. The thing that I wanted to say about the episode is this is a, maybe it's a crutch, but I do find that it, I do find that it bears repeating from time to time, which is the observation that storylines or characters, arcs in TV shows often really do echo the experience or the publicized, known public-facing experience of the people making the show. And the reference, the example one always uses or I always use is like, oh, well, that's what the money is for. That was the David Chase, Matthew Weiner relationship and he's talked about that. Last week, there was a moment when I started going down that old, oh, I'm still writing a column for Grantland brain and seeing Harper being perhaps over her skis in terms of power and authority behind a big fancy desk in a big Baroque building still being looked down upon by old white people.

54:50Andy Greenwald:I'm like, oh, Mickey and Conrad are asserting their ownership of the show to a degree that they have not done before, even though they have been the showrunners and obviously the co-creators. But now that they are completely the authorial voice on the script and behind the camera, is there something going on there? And then I realized that what Harper is doing, though, constantly is shorting things and underestimating things and profiting from that. And that is the opposite of what these guys do. They are fucking whales in Macau when it comes to the gambles they are willing to take with their prize, which is having a show on HBO.

55:23Yes.

55:24Andy Greenwald:I think this episode was so maximalist, so extra, so unhinged that it was breathtaking to watch. And there were moments when, and I sent you the Philippe Petit skyscrape walk when I was watching the episode before you did, because there were moments when I was like, I think they're tipping. I think they are tipping too far on the wrong side. And then, like true acrobats, they write themselves. Yes. And the difference between the ice cold show that industry was at the beginning and that it often is with the contoured lines of the city or the version of the city that they recreate in Cardiff with the hot blooded Tom Jones diner.

56:08Andy Greenwald:There wasn't a diner scene. Tom Jones doesn't live here anymore. The Tom Jones dinner scene Baroque aesthetic of the season finale of season three that was recreated here is that is a wild spin. and there were also moments when I was like, I think they're more interested in this version of the show that is the Henry version of the show. And when Henry returns to the city, as I imagine he inevitably will now, I wonder if they will be able to marry the hot and cold sides of the show, like a McDLT. It's the second episode of the season, and obviously we had one episode that was largely about Max Mahala and Cal Penn's characters.

56:48Harper's part of it, obviously, but we get little glimpses into what they're doing. But I felt like that first episode was about Tender. And the second episode is about Henry. So now we're about to start the third episode of this season and the players have not gotten to the same gym yet.

57:08Andy Greenwald:No, but they're going to in the third episode when we're about to talk about the 10th episode of the second season of a show on Paramount Plus that is just starting the show. as it sets up the third season. So I think they're doing things fairly economically. You mentioned the season three finale, which in some ways was a series finale for a certain version of the show. The pair-pump version, yeah. And I love how there may not be narrative-connected tissue, although if you pay attention, there is, but in terms of style, aesthetic, visual bravery, episodes will then give permission to future episodes.

57:51So shooting what they shot at Henry's place in the, in the previous, in season two, season three, kind of gives them a lay of the land to do so much more stuff in this. And they're using anamorphic lenses. They're, you know, obviously indulging in the Gothic aspects of the surroundings so much so that they are bringing in ghosts and bringing in flashbacks.

58:21Andy Greenwald:Which are not things we have really seen in the language of the show before. No. And I think I almost, I'm itching to get to the last scene, the very last scene. You know, there is this also playing around with the, and then also lampooning the mythology of the great English man and like the almost like Arthurian kind of like you in the land are one and having Alexander, Henry's uncle in the window saying like, Spring has returned. Spring has returned. Like the idea that like this family is now kind of like come out of the darkness and the wilderness of this guy's depression. But, you know, that final scene and there's, you know, look, like it's easy to just be like, it's like the graduate.

59:08You know, there's some ambiguity to like how they feel. but I thought those two actors were so remarkable in that drive you know not the humping against the car although they did a great job doing that I thought they were great but his kind of like I'm laughing I'm crying I'm laughing I'm crying or is it just the wind blowing in my face face and Marisa Bella's reaction to Henry being like we should try for a child and his blood on her lips is like, come on, what are we doing here? No, they touch God on that. And I know that that's what they're trying to do

59:48Andy Greenwald:with this show. But you don't get that moment without a lot of hard work. Talking about the structure, the scene, everything that happens with Yasmin and her aunt played by Claire Forlani, where the aunt's parting invective is your father told me he was going to make sure that the pregnancy was aborted if it would have been a boy. And here you are. And a lot about what it means to be a woman and what it means to be a woman to support, love, submit to, control whatever men in this world. And then for him to say, I'm better now, I'm going to give you something else to take care of. It's all there.

1:00:28Andy Greenwald:But what's also there is the casting and the, you know, maybe this is an economic term that I start to understand is the opportunity or the opportunity cost because maybe all actors, all ambitious or hungry actors who have been locked in chain mail or franchise armor for years need to go to Ibiza with Mickey and Conrad, maybe literally or just metaphorically. Kit Harington is so, he's dying of thirst for this role. Like he is embodying it with his entire yourself well it's so funny the opening scene where he is embarrassed and smiling is one of the great hold camera acting performances of recent television yeah and he brings that level of commitment and intensity to every scene which is required considering the cocktail of drugs and suicidal ideation that he's existing under and the fact that he was like Jon Snow drove me to ruin by playing that part, but playing Henry Muck is like my dream role.

1:01:34But it allows him to say, to say,

1:01:37Andy Greenwald:I don't think I have a second act. Yeah. You know, and Whitney says, maybe there aren't second acts in American lives, but the idea of being chained to something, something successful, in this case, you're born a lord, you are born rich, people are touring your home as if you contributed something to this world, but you are as disused and on display as a harpsichord. It's a remarkable act, and I'm very curious how this plays in the UK too, because I think we are just enough removed from being immersed in that kind of landed gentry society to have just, oh, I'm empathetic about the new character on my television show.

1:02:19Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Whereas if the American version of industry, which could never exist, but, you know, a new character that we are building empathy, equity with, the first thing we see is that he's standing for election, you know, wearing a MAGA hat. Like, I feel like that would maybe... Turn off. Now, I understand. MAGA is a reform party. I get it. And personally, I vote Binface every time. Well, I just think that they're doing their best to save Ahsoka from... That's right. That's right. I find it interesting. And it's a, again, that's another, it's a, it's a wild risk to be like, we are. And because there's a version of entertainment about this level of society or this world, whether it was the world of Wall Street, you know, or the street or the upper, upper class of England that is satirical, that is taking the piss, that is the gentleman that is it's all a joke and we're all the victims of the joke.

1:03:21Andy Greenwald:one of the reasons why industry stays ahead of the curve, I think is because for all of the bluster and all of the massive amounts of cocaine, I think Mickey and Conrad are softies in terms of their interest in the emotional lives of these people. And, and it's quite a gamble making us care to the degree that they do about people who live like this. Yes. Uh, what do you think about, you mentioned the Whitney line about maybe not second acts and he's like, maybe not an American life. the characters on this show have sort of achieved a almost total self-awareness at this point when the witness the sense of how they articulate their interiority even their journeys even their now some of it may be theater and some of it may be projection and some of it may be like you know the side of me that i want people to see and i think that the harper character specifically does a lot of like um clompson and heavy boots to like let everybody know like i'm a badass I'm I'm that motherfucker and then is like has like vulnerabilities and has her own pain and stuff like that but it is interesting watching you know Henry in the in the the hunt scene with his uncle and then Henry and Whitney's conversation uh Yasmin and Henry's huge fight in their amazing in their bedroom but it's a specific kind of writing where it's like I'm not waiting two seasons or three episodes or six episodes for someone to arrive at this revelation about themselves and be able to articulate it.

1:04:52But it is also like a different kind of writing. Like there is a, would you describe it as stagey?

1:05:00Andy Greenwald:It's a great question. I was going to say that where they pitch it is from a line in that scene that's the nexus of arousal and disgust is what interests them most. The stagey thing is interesting to consider just because of the fact that these guys - Like a... Yeah. Well, these guys are staging it too. That's the other thing. Yeah. It is, you know, there was a hallmark of succession. The characters would tear at each other with knives in a just like past the sausages scene. A lot of sausages on the breakfast table, by the way. And I did see they posted some BTS of like adding more sausages to the plate.

1:05:36Andy Greenwald:So at least they were having fun with it. I always, I loved the fact that there was just like way more food than any of those people were going to eat. And no one touched it. So much excess. Yeah. The reason I bring up succession is because the tenor of the way that they talked was really beautifully and intentionally paired with the way Mark Milad moved the camera. It was all handheld, sort of circling, and it was almost like watching a nature video of someone like Serengeti watching these great animals attack each other. This is somewhere perched in between, and I think they're getting their own confidence as to how they want the camera to move, and sometimes you notice it more.

1:06:09Andy Greenwald:And so then when the camera is like in the great hall perched way back and they're not in the center of the frame, I am made aware of the framing in a different way, which maybe feels like they're on display. But all of it works for me because the language of the show has always been from the very beginning that in on the trading floor, you can say anything because it's ultimately binary. You're either making the trade or you're not. And anything between you and the trade needs to be removed expeditiously, if not savagely. I think that the language, particularly in this episode, felt sharp to me.

1:06:46Andy Greenwald:And I think that what I mean is like in a big scene where characters are really saying what they feel about each other or what they see in each other, there can be a tendency to just keep writing it until it starts to become flabby. And everything is so pointed that it didn't take me out of it. I think that there are some observations, and we can get into some of the specifics if you want, but like the scene, the two scenes that, the scene with Yasmin and her aunt, you know, where they talk about how these men love murdering women no matter what was a remarkable scene of dialogue. And I'm very curious when we talk to Mickey and Conrad at the end of the season, the genesis of that, because, you know, famously, they don't really have a writer's room and their buddy and another great writer, Joe Charlton, helps with it.

1:07:32Andy Greenwald:And I'm sure they do have other consultants involved from time to time. but that felt in a good way like other characters bringing a point of view or other people bringing a point of view to the show. Well, I love that whole storyline of this episode because it's Yasmin realizing that she doesn't have a family anymore at all. She leaps up at the arrival of her aunt because she's surrounded by all these people dressed up as viscounts and whatever and she finally sees another Hanani, you know, across the room and goes running over to her. And, you know, it starts with this kind of, like, immediate kind of connection and this immediate...

1:08:13You understand me. I'm listening to your advice. And then it starts to get darker and darker and then she spots her with Otto and then, you know, like... And then when she gets to the end of the night, she finds out, like, I'm actually alone in this world. And so that also informs, I think, not only what she does with Hayley, but also like what happens, why she's hanging on to this Henry thing so hard and she's giving him one last chance. But that, like when you are like kind of all lost at sea without anybody else sharing your name, you're going to behave differently than if you're like, I come from a huge family.

1:08:49And then that's why Henry behaves the way he behaves, you know?

1:08:51Andy Greenwald:I also think that what, one of the best aspects of the way Mickey and Conrad make television is they do, I don't know if it's generational or if it's experiential or just being aware of what they like in entertainment and putting it onto the screen. But Henry's journey towards, and there's a direct quote, you know, we would rather die afraid than be present for a single second of our lives, basically. That is beautifully compelling, devastating, hard-earned therapy speak. Yes. That in, I don't even say lesser shows, other shows, that's a season. That's a series. Sure. Sure. they dispatch it in a incredibly dramatic, sometimes melodramatic, long night of the soul.

1:09:36Andy Greenwald:That's a choice, and I think one that is, again, the degree of difficulty is extreme. But at the end of it, I also wanted to take my sports car out on the road. Like, I didn't, they didn't crash the car, even though they came close to it. What did you feel, at what point did you realize we were in kind of a fight club ghost situation? At the bar. I mean, because I initially, it was like, you know, obviously nobody seems to acknowledge that the commander is there in the dinner scene. So there was something a bit off about that first moment he's introduced. Although when you're watching it, you're like, well, again, from the colonies, I'm like, the level of Grin and Barrett through performs humiliation, that's been established.

1:10:21Andy Greenwald:Yes. That like they will just keep gritting their teeth and drinking through almost anything. Yes. But so I was like, oh, this is interesting. Maybe this is a schoolmate who's come back, or maybe this is his fucking wild friend who always brings him into the mess. Yeah. But by the time they get to the pub and sit down, and I actually at first had that thought about the priest, which I'm not entirely sure if he was there either. You know what I mean? Well, I think the other thing that I thought was subtle and interesting was that the maid. Yeah, Molly. Molly is intentionally cast and dressed as working class Yasmin.

1:11:04Andy Greenwald:Yes. I mean, she is a double for her. Yes. And I think that was very intentional as well. When the bar happens and when the fight happens, I was like, this guy's not there. I did have a moment of too much TV drift because we had just watched another show that we're about to talk about in which a character punches someone perhaps 12 to 15 too many times with slightly different outcome. The Midland police may not have let. They would not have looked kindly on this. They wouldn't have let it go. But again, it's a different system. You mentioned the Harper thing. I liked the use of Harper in this episode a lot because I like giving Mahala a chance to play different notes.

1:11:45Andy Greenwald:And she seemed, because the weight of the world and the weight of the episode is not on her shoulders, she was very smiley. and seeming like legitimately flirty and able to like be more of a human, then I don't mean, this is not a criticism of the performance. I mean that the character was able to let her guard down slightly. Yes. In a way that was charming and appealing. Well, that scene between her and Yasmin, so like it's great. It's like being in like a very mini Harold Pinter play where it's like all of a sudden, it's just like, why have you invited me? Why are you here? Because I have to be.

1:12:19Why are you here? I'm lonely. Why are you lonely?

1:12:21Andy Greenwald:I'm not, I'm two episodes in, I'm not fully convinced about Max Minghella. I think the... I guess I'm curious what role Whitney plays going forward. We just have to... I think you have... We'll get to the end of the season and be like, ah. Yeah, possibly. There's a version of it where he is just fully the devil. And I think that the performance and the lighting is leaning into that in the early going. in which case I guess I'm just curious where it's going. I think I feel that way about the season itself but I'm not worried I'm just like what's this about? I think my comparison point and again this feels like a completely different television show as I'm about to bring it up but I was going to bring up Jay Duplass.

1:13:10Andy Greenwald:You know the last significant time that an American character came in and you know I have no idea how they wrote the character I have no idea what their casting process was like like who they were picturing when they wrote the character versus what they ended up with. But he brought something that was specifically, it's not off-putting, it was off-kilter. So that I wasn't sure how to feel about him because you're used to seeing a Duplass brother as like just a puffy chair in human form, but he was obviously a little bit more than that. And I liked that uncertainty. I would like more uncertainty from this character in the early going, especially if Harper's Flash and Smiles like that.

1:13:49Andy Greenwald:but that's just a purely surface-level note. We've alluded to Landman a couple of times. Our great dig, our great drilling is over. No, apparently we have seasons more of reserves. Well, yes. I mean, there's definitely going to be a third season. It sounds like there could be at least five or six. I don't know how that works against Taylor Sheridan's universal peacock responsibilities. We'll see.

1:14:18I thought this show ended look I mean like we and I have a lot of fun at this show's expense but just to be sober about it for a second I thought this show ended its second season in a really interesting place and that that place should have happened in like the second or third episode of this season of this first season perhaps as well no I mean I think I think that there was a different version of this show on the first season that was way more about like all the disasters that a guy like Tommy has to handle and my relationship to the show was a little bit more kind of like fun loving and forgiving when I was like it's kind of cool to see like all the different things that go wrong in the oil business and in this world and how this guy has to handle it and then the second season is largely Tommy in a pickup truck driving back and forth across Texas fielding calls putting out fires and putting out fires but like the first two episodes are kind of like that and then there's like a middle block of six episodes that are essentially like the Norrises.

1:15:16Andy Greenwald:Yeah. There is a Ministry of Propaganda, Caroline Leavitt version of the show, in which someone, and honestly, they should be leaking this. Someone should leak this. Oh my God, the fact that we ended up in a creatively fulfilling and exciting place considering all the challenges we had to go through making this show. Yes. Like, please someone leak that story and even if it's pure Taylor whitewashed propaganda. Like, I would love to hear that version. I don't think we're going to get that. No, because nobody, they don't care. And he doesn't talk. No. He talks through his characters and turns out sometimes you just need to give the fare to Beth.

1:15:56Andy Greenwald:It is tough to give the show points for ending in a place, as you said, that if that was the goal, there is a more economical and entertaining way to get there. We could ask a hundred questions, and I have them here in bullet point form about what any of it was for if this is where we were going. I think the truth, the only plausible interpretation of the show is that the showrunner who writes every episode is essentially a wind dancer in front of a Fort Worth auto dealership getting distracted by shiny things, blowing in different directions because you can't tell me that this was what the season was all about.

1:16:38Andy Greenwald:The end of season, let's just talk through this chronologically and logically. The end of season one, Tommy is tied up, beaten, a nail gun shot into his leg, all at the behest of cartel boss Andy Garcia. Well, really, he's more of like their money manager. Yeah, but then he's just like, I'm going to have them remove the nail from your leg now, but I own you and you have been warned. Yes. Don't do this shit again. Second season reintroduces Andy Garcia as the man who controls all of Tommy's son's drilling. Mm-hmm. And that leads to a six-episode run of Tommy walking into Andy Garcia's office saying, fuck you.

1:17:17Andy Greenwald:And he goes, I don't know, Tommy. Fuck me. Maybe fuck you. And then they run it back while their wives become friends because shopping. Yes. Okay. Concurrent to this was the idea that Demi Moore was in the cast of this show for an entire season last year. Where she's swimming laps. Where she just swims laps and sometimes strokes Jon Hamm's cheek. Gives him a smoothie and a heart pill. Because when he, you know, they do the Taylor special, and it's like, I thought this guy was on another show. Oh. She would step up. In the early going, we see her learn to fight on the Savannah by talking shit about younger women in bathrooms.

1:17:56Andy Greenwald:Yes. Then, just as she's stepping into her power, we learn that primarily what she wants to do is have unhinged Emmy-baiting crying freakouts where she pours out whiskey at gravestones. That's what she does for about two or three episodes. Suddenly at the end of the season she becomes the gambler of all gamblers. Yes. Commits$400 million to a shot in the dark in the ocean. A shot in the dark that we kind of root for because I thought we were supposed to root for the risk takers on this show and also that geologist is super hot with great body products and Rebecca's in love with him and wants this path to be followed.

1:18:37Andy Greenwald:Tommy talks Andy Garcia into backing it, then says that's a bad idea to back it. Cammy really talks. Yeah, Tommy never is really for this. And then Cammy fires him and suddenly everyone, I mean, this might be something that is actually relevant in America. Everyone here was always against this, right? Yeah, well, there's a couple of things. I think what you're reacting to is the same thing. I largely agree with you about this. we're reacting to, if this was an album, it was poorly mixed. That is so generous. My point is this. Yeah. There's a straightforward, more straightforward way of telling this story that hits certain beats at certain points and turns the kick drum up enough so that you're like, ah, yes, this is the tempo or the rhythm.

1:19:22I need to be aware of this. But because they emphasize Ainsley and Cooper and Angela doing stuff in and around Texas as much as the oil drilling aspect of it and the company, the EmTech aspect of it. The EmTech stuff seems to kind of be lost somewhere underneath a bunch of noise. And then at the end, they're like, no, no, no. Cammie has always been a gambler. She's trying to prove that she, like that Monty lives forever through this company. Yes. But Nate has always known that this company was built to be sold because he's been hiding all these boxes in the basement of this building. And he's like, he never meant for this to go on.

1:20:12He meant for it to be sold. You should sell it.

1:20:14Andy Greenwald:Why does Nate live in the house hundreds of miles away from where the boxes are? I don't know. I think he's supposed to be like overseeing the contracts needed for the drilling area. Yeah. Sure. I like, that is so elegant, the Sanewashing you just did. No, it's not Sanewashing. The analogy to what happened with the Replacements albums, I love it. Except the original Replacements albums didn't have an incredibly old saxophone trying to fuck an underage keyboard. That's not what the problem with those records were that needed to be cleaned up in the edit. I forgot about TL and Cheyenne. My take on the season is that Demi Moore had an A.J.

1:20:56Andy Greenwald:Brown type campaign. Oh. Where I believe that she may have been agitating to be traded early on in the making of the season. Yes. Because I would say the amount of targets she was given did not really add up. You say that? Can we make a gentleman's bet right now? Let's get, I would say like, let's put a mid-level dinner on this. Does that exist in Los Angeles? Yeah, I was just trying to say, I guess that's sweet green. The Arby's on Sunset that's now closed? I think she's back in season three. Well, look, we are existing in a universe where, as part of his attempt to get an Oscar nomination, Will Arnett is showing up on The Madison next season, this first season.

1:21:35Andy Greenwald:So showing up on a Taylor Sheridan show does not seem to be the same. Because you're saying that and it's like, oh, she got nominated for an Oscar for The Substance. She's back. She can do movies and whatever. But I think she's coming back in the third season.

1:21:53Andy Greenwald:I'm not going to bring logic to a Sheridan fight. Like, that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You're in my world now. And up is fucking down, dog. I was, and sometimes you can be surprised. Like, I didn't know that the priority of a Texas police department would be to prosecute the man defending his fiance from a attempted rape that is on camera. Like, that seems to be, first of all, great to see Mackenzie Esten get in work after his appearance on The Pit last season. and I felt like even as he was saying some of the most horse shit lines I've ever heard in my life in a completely implausible characterization when he was allowed to speak when he wasn't being monologued at twice because this is the classic thing about the generosity of Taylor Sheridan Rebecca got to walk in and just it's like walking it's like LeBron walking into a gym with 15 3 foot high baskets and just dunks One day I want to see Rebecca in court I mean it would be a remarkable performance and they'd be like ma 'am this is an RV's drive-thru Chris and Andy are eating it.

1:22:58Andy Greenwald:Chris and Andy are dining here. Can you lower it? Demi Moore was on season three, so Andy had to take Chris to the office. He had to do it. And then Tommy gets to come in and do the same scene where the, I guess he's the chief of police, five times has to say, we're just trying to consider the facts here, Tommy. Yeah. It's all such aggravated, performative nonsense that it's almost insulting that it's all in the service of the sea story in a season finale that's never going to come up again. Do you know what I mean? That's how shows go for seven years now, though. This is the thing. You just don't know what it was like deep into Yellowstone where you were like, what am I watching?

1:23:42I also... Where there would be 15-minute scenes of dudes that you've never seen before eating at the bunkhouse.

1:23:49Andy Greenwald:The show's commitment to starting all scenes with an extreme close-up of a woman in her underwear is remarkable. That's true. As kids who grew up in the generation of hoping Hot Dog the movie was on Cinemax, who among us? I respect it. Do you know what I mean? That was... Yeah, if you had told young Andy, you never would have believed you. That's a worldview that I'm not immune to. Yeah. That said, the fact that this episode has the framing of Cheyenne's completely just underwear posterior fixing the car, that's the framing of it. And then they do the same framing to introduce Ariana as her bruises are being investigated at the police station.

1:24:32Andy Greenwald:Like, you know, I respect the commitment to the bit, even though I may disagree with the... I think you, I appreciate you standing up for Ariana and Cheyenne, but like everybody's here because they want to hear you talk about Pagan again. I want to come back to Pagan. I did want to say that I spent this whole season seeing the credit for Stephen K being like, oh, like I feel like that's interesting. He must be like John Ford. No, I thought he was like, there's something about that name that made me think that he directed the sequel to Elizabeth that Sheikhar Kapoor didn't get around to doing. He was just some like, oh, he's a British guy who's done a bunch of stuff, yeoman-like work, like this generation's Taylor Hackford, who's just like.

1:25:09Andy Greenwald:And then you Google him, and I learned that. He looks like a pirate. Well, or he looks like late period Motley Crue. Yeah. And he's married to Piper Perabo, and I guess he's directed tons of Yellowstone and was an actor. And Piper Perabo was on Yellowstone. So it really is all in the family, which I appreciate. I wouldn't want, you know, I've spent a lot of time in England recently. I wouldn't want someone fresh off the boat, like the reverse me, walking onto the set of this show. You want to talk about Pagan? Let's talk about Pagan. The Pagan redemption arc? You have a little bit of a, look at this face.

1:25:45Andy Greenwald:You feel like maybe I jumped the gun. Let's hear it. What did you think, bud? Uh, well... I didn't think that that was where it was going to get left. Them as good friends understanding each other? No, those two as being, like, incredible adversaries and just, like, taking down gender non-binary people a peg. You think that... You were saying this is an argument for getting to know each other a little bit more. Working together. Reaching across the aisle. Taping each other up. You and me, we're not so different. Ahead of time. I was curious about Ainsley, who has spent a season and a half in just full-on preparation for the rigors of cheerleading.

1:26:26Because, you know, these two seasons only take place over like six weeks. Did you know that?

1:26:32Andy Greenwald:No, I felt like it's been years. It's certainly been years for me. This has been six weeks? In terms of the time that has elapsed in between. because she's like, my husband died two weeks ago. I'm not going to lose this company. That's wild, dude. Ainsley did seem really surprised by the rigors of a professional sporting program. So it was good that Pagan was there to tape up her ankles ahead of time. Yeah. If Ainsley had been working on her ankles instead of her tan all summer, maybe she would have been a little bit more ready for cheerleading practice. She hadn't been so distraught by the aromas of ferret that she broke her lifelong margarita fest.

1:27:15It's like that sugar is corroding her ankles.

1:27:17Andy Greenwald:A minute on the lips, a lifetime on the ankles is what they say. I thought it was nice that they could be friends. I thought it was nice that Pagan likes music. Who do they like? Lainey Wilson? Mm-hmm. I think that the correct takeaway here— I wonder if Ainsley and Pagan let that Zach Bryan rip after everything. You like this new record, huh? Yeah. I'll check it out. The, it's just, it's just layer, it's like a, it's like a, a peasant bed. I don't think you're going to like it. In the tournament at Game of Night of the Seven Kingdoms. It's just layers of straw after another to support the initial arguments.

1:27:53Andy Greenwald:So the Pagan-Ainsley collision, where Pagan is basically like, ChatGPT, tell me what Megyn Kelly said last week and let me just embody it. That was the entire character. Yeah. This week he's like, hmm, nuance. Let me have three dipshits from high school being like, hey, take them out or whatever. And then she's like, you guys have little dicks. And they're like, no, we don't. We watch Hot Dog together all the time. Like, okay. I guess it balances out and I'm the fool. The big broad strokes, like the most frustrating thing about the show isn't the borderline and competent writing and the insulting gender politics.

1:28:37Andy Greenwald:Yeah. It's the fact that every so often it drives near a good television show. And you can feel the contours of it. And thus doing the Sterling Cooper, Draper Price thing that industry also did is the right move to get all of the characters that we have built empathy, equity with over the course of now two seasons into the same place, into the same business, not driving in opposite directions from each other all the time, makes sense. Now, Rebecca, who has proven herself to be relatively risk-averse up to this point, her willingness to just throw her entire professional career in with this group of dipshits is wild.

1:29:16Do you think that Nate made a bit of a professional mistake there? Yeah, what is... Cammie offers him interim president. Yes. Tommy makes him treasurer. A hundred percent. He fumbled the bag. He lives in someone's guest room. Does everybody get the same equity stake regardless of their... Just bossing his workers. Yeah.

1:29:35Andy Greenwald:I don't think management shares in the spoils, you know? Oh, you don't think so? No. Now, we don't know what kind of pay package treasurer comes with, but I think of a man of Nate's age and stature, I feel like president and then like a golden parachute makes a lot more sense. Sure. He could maybe have his own apartment one day. Or move to Dallas. Or fucking move to where he actually works. Yeah. I also feel frustrated that while because Rebecca doesn't know anything about oil drilling really I mean maybe she doesn't need to but like she has to have her boyfriend explain how looking for natural gas in the gulf works and stuff like that but she is made COO of CTT oil and cattle I also want to say that the defining feature of Tommy's life coming out of season one is I guess Tommy took a demotion as well He did, but that was for family.

1:30:31Andy Greenwald:That was because he wanted to put an 82-year-old who cannot navigate a wooden chair successfully in charge of drilling. Like, look, I am all for, and soon hopefully will be the beneficiary of, a push to include elders in the workplace. Like, we are grateful that anyone's listening at all at this point. But I do think that maybe the general direction of the country has suggested that it's time to turn the page on baby boomers. Maybe. Could be wrong. Um, yeah. So when we get to this time this year, Yeah. I guess because I think they're on the same track of they're going to start shooting in the spring and have it up in the late fall.

1:31:13Right. Do you think you'll have a return engagement with Landman Season 3?

1:31:18Andy Greenwald:You have to explain to me like what, you know, there's like soft asks and then there's harder asks in terms of my continued participation in this podcast. And I'm well aware of it and I like to navigate the politics as well as anyone. Yeah. You know, so you tell me. Okay. You tell me.

1:31:39I'll wait for that. I'll wait for that season three trailer drop and the casting announcements and stuff.

1:31:43Andy Greenwald:A year ago, though, the defining trade hallmark of Tommy's life was I will not be in business with the Mexican cartels. And now he's like, well, I mean, it was, he's finally getting back on the casino floor. You know, he's finally taking a spin at the big roulette wheel. At the young age of 70. One thing that I do respect, and we can move on from this, but I did want to get your opinion on this. One thing that I do like about the show, and maybe this is just a hallmark of television in general, you know, in which I'm sure people have noticed, like, no one ever says goodbye on a telephone call in TV and movies because that's just extra dialogue and it's a waste so we move on.

1:32:22Andy Greenwald:When Tommy has his power lunch to make his pitch to Bob, as soon as Bob makes it clear that, like, he would hire him. He just stands up and leaves. Have you ever done that? Would you do that at Arby's? I've never done that. I want to. I want to try. All lunch meetings, you know, you have to make small talk for a while. You know what I do do sometimes is I think I have a shorter clock than most people is that like, we get to the end of a dinner and some people like to linger. I'm not a big lingerer at a restaurant table. I want to say as someone who's dined with you, your physical performance at the end of meals makes that clear.

1:33:02It's okay if I say it. I don't like it when you say it.

1:33:05Andy Greenwald:I'm just saying, when it's time for you to go, you go. Okay. You know, there starts to be some movement. There's a little bit of watch looking. Interesting. What else do you want to tell me about myself? It's the same thing that you do when I bring up how I recently completed Effingers, an 800-page book published by New York Review of Books. Thanks to Kaya. You don't want to do our sports minute? Not really. We've been here for a really long time. Thanks to Kai. We will be back on Thursday with The Pit. Maybe some movie talk? I mean, sentimental value. That's the movie of the year. The sentimental value has eclipsed Marty Supreme?

1:33:40Andy Greenwald:Yes. Wow. Like, easily. Great. You know how I'm a sucker for a multi-generational family story set at Europe. Let's wrap there.

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