A ‘Superman’ Preview and ‘The Eternaut’ Episodes 4-6

20:50It's not even that solid of a framing but I'm going to go with it anyway. Yeah, let's do it. I feel like if you're an engaged online movie fan and I mean that in like lowercase f like yeah, I'm a fan of movies and I read about them before they come out. It's like this is the movie that either it is the woke mind virus become become manifest or like something that captures the total essence of Superman as a character and returns us to the wonder and glory of the 1940s or is a two and a half hour mess or like a tight, cool new movie from James Gunn. Like the reactions to this film have been so varied that it actually, I would say this makes me want to see it even more, even though I was probably professionally like obligated and curious enough to want to go check it out anyway.

21:42Where are you at with this? and have you been paying much attention to the lead-up?

21:46Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I mean, I've gone through some permutations myself because I have been, ever since he got the gig, I have been on this microphone being like, I think this is going to be great. I think this is the right person for the job. I think it's the right take on the character, very much based on the... The right city for the actor who plays Superman to be from. Listen, if we had... I'm not saying we had to cast a Jewish kid from the main line as Superman. But once we did, where do I report for duty? How many tickets can I buy in advance? I you know I think it's very much this has been in the ether as well that like it was very much visually inspired by the Grant Morrison Frank Quitely all-star Superman all in and then as we got closer to the actual movie existing it's a lot of dog content and also a lot of busyness right that like I thought that the appeal of that comic book the all-star Superman was that it was really reduced to its essence of what Superman is.

22:46Andy Greenwald:And then you could sort of build up from there. What it seemed like we were getting, and we still may have gotten, is like we are just dropkicking you into the deep end of a brightly colored metahuman world. Yeah. Where it's very busy and all the stuff is going on. And thankfully not an origin story, but a very, very like in-media res kind of thing. I started to back off a little bit. then there's that very accidental leak embargo break of a guy being like fuck this only Zack Snyder understood the raw physical power that was what was so funny about that meaning the leak was from the Daily Beast and do you think it's funny because the Daily Beast has long been like anti-Snyder and this was a zag for them well I don't know historically where they stand on the Snyder cut but I bet like generally speaking I find the Daily Beast to be like whoa that's cool unless how is that different than the imitation of me you just did.

23:40Andy Greenwald:What would I sound like writing for the Daily Beast? Be honest. I wish Oasis would talk more. There it is. Where's the banter? Why can't Oasis be more like... I didn't pay$400 to hear these songs. I want to hear you guys chat. Do you know which siblings really make me smile in concert? Tegan and Sarah. She's fucking loving us today. This is great. That's because she's just thinking about all the clips she's going to make. she's gonna have to make a super cut of all the times we do your voice your Daily Beast voice hey guys if I address it I address the whole thing to Alan and Leeds just like my straw man Oasis fan Alan I've spent a lot of time in your country Alan put down the fullers for a second what are we saying I was just curious whether you were pumped for this movie and also like haven't you found it a bit confusing?

24:38Like, I mean, like I guess like - It's confusing.

24:40Andy Greenwald:And I also think it's, well, you could look at it as two ways. I think broadly this is a bummer and it's a much larger topic that we've touched on in different ways. And obviously Sean and Amanda talk about frequently, movies can't just be movies anymore. They have to be cultural events. And in order to be a cultural event, you have to have the valence of cultural events today, which as we were just talking about is content. It's teams. It's this versus that. It's like this movie represents my side and whether it's my side about movies, about politics, about culture, whatever, it has to represent that.

25:12Andy Greenwald:So then you have to literally, in this case, cape up to support it. So the division of this movie into like, you know, Snyder fans versus what's the word? People with taste or I'm trying. I think it's going great. No, but it's like, which side of this movie are you on? And I think all of that obscures the fact that very likely we will come in here on Monday and do the thing that Kyle will hate most, which is this is pretty good. And it's kind of messy and it's not a great movie, but it might be a good experience and it might have things to build on or things that we found repellent. But regardless, we're talking about it.

25:50Andy Greenwald:But to get people in the theaters, it has to be much, much, much more than that. I do think that the lead up is confusing for people who are paying attention to it because it is hard to separate the idea of this movie as James Gunn, the filmmaker's expression of what is true and great about both Superman and comic books generally versus James Gunn, the partner of Peter Safran, the architect of the next 10 years of the DCU. Who's like tweeting out like, I have spoken to Ryan Coogler and we may be cooking something up. Right, right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, as a way of engaging with and driving interest in your project.

26:25So I get it.

26:26Andy Greenwald:But that said, I can't pretend I didn't bring my Dave sushi hat, so I cannot pretend to be the voice of the people, you know, of like middle America today. But I did have some delicious mushrooms for breakfast. This is a very reflexive episode we're recording here today. I think we have to cultivate our base. Yeah. You know, I think that works in America. I get the sense and I feel like the early tracking of how the movie is going to do supports this that the rollout has been successful it's going to be a big hit I think that the images like just the still images the poster the billboards just like of a handsome Jewish guy from the main line of Philadelphia's face and like just look up and like the colors and the way that it is playing nostalgia the way Gunn is really good at this it's using the rainbow font it's using John Williams score, but it doesn't feel like the Gus Van Sant version of Psycho.

27:23Andy Greenwald:It's not like a frame-for-frame tribute to something. It feels like something relatively new, and there's a lot of bright colors and stuff, and that seems like it's going to work. Fucking movies, man. I went to go see F1 last night because I wanted to get it in IMAX before Superman took over IMAX screens, which I assume is going to happen. Dude, like, packed house for a Wednesday 6.15. And Bill went and saw it the other night and he was like, it's a packed house for a Tuesday at 10.15. So people are just going to the movies. So as the third chair of the big picture, where's the disconnect still?

28:01Andy Greenwald:Because it's not just anecdotal that we've thrown this out a bunch of times. Like, oh, the New Bev and America Cinematheque and Vidiot's and local places here in LA are always filled for whatever they're doing in an exciting way. It's like Criterion collection goes viral. Like Criterion has a million followers on Instagram. I don't, I can't imagine a world. Is that because Liam and Noel went in the closet? Eh. Do it. I fucking dare you. I kid made this movie. I don't know how to do Manchester. Manchester is really hard. I can do, I can in my private time do Liverpool, but I would not share it with people.

28:40I can do Kerry Condon from F1.

28:43Andy Greenwald:Yeah, you want to talk about that? Listen, not to make everything a financial thing, but you have had Carrie Condon stocks since Leo was peddling them. Kaczynski saw the vision. Pitt saw the vision. CR saw the vision. You saw the vision. Yeah, but this is someone who is a working actor who is just like, luck would be me big break. And it was not. It broke a bunch of horses instead. She's in Better Call Saul constantly, but not particularly forcefully. right? Yeah. She plays Mike's essentially estranged daughter-in-law. Daughter-in-law. Yeah. But here she is. Fixing cars. Do it. Yeah. No, I mean like she is awesome in that movie.

29:29Andy Greenwald:But wait, answer my question though. Movies are so back but why can't we make them? Honestly, I know this is a stupid answer. I honestly think it's like quality and it's word of mouth. I think it's like people coming out of Sinners. It's people coming out of 28 years later. It's people even coming out a materialist and be like, I love this or I thought this was really provocative or I thought that you, you got to go see it. You got to, you got to see it so we can talk about it. Yeah. That urgency and that feeling that like movies are some sort of like currency that you can, you know, this is something to talk about at dinner.

30:00It's something to talk about at the office. It's something to chat about with friends. And I think that, um, there was like, I think the event overtook the movie in event movie for a while. and now it's like, no, you can make a really good movie and that can in of itself be an event. And I think that also, honestly, the IMAX experience is really, really powerful. To go to see that movie and it be that loud and it's Hans Zimmer synths for like two and a half hours, you're like, I feel like I went to a rock concert. It was incredible.

30:33Andy Greenwald:Do you, I feel like the only IMAX movie I've ever actually seen in IMAX, I think was when we saw Oppenheimer together. Um, the other thing about Superman that we'll talk about it more on Monday that I think is interesting. And I don't know if it's interesting to many people. I don't know how much of a, how, how much this, this story has penetrated, but like to the degree to which people who work for or around the Warner Brothers Discovery Corporation, who are, who will say not like on the record, but just casually say, um, yeah, if this movie doesn't work, like the studio, like the lot is going to get sold.

31:07Andy Greenwald:like they're not being serious I'm not trying to be aggregated but like it's kind of this big shrug and be like well Superman and the Harry Potter show like they better work or else this whole thing collapses no presh no presh I feel great I think that's interesting to the comic book point which is also kind of a segue into Eternat Eternat one of the things that I love about the show and we're not spoiling it yet is the fact that it is a 100 % I mean, 100 % based on a comic book and is a comic book story. But whether it's due to budgetary limitations, production limitations, or creative vision, it is not over the top, even though the story is enormous.

31:51Andy Greenwald:And it is often a question of scale. And I thought that one of the more interesting Superman reviews I read was by Owen Gleiberman, who we've been reading since he was the critic in Entertainment Weekly in the 90s. Where is he now? Variety. He's at Variety. And his review is really, really good and interesting and positive. but his point his lead is basically that we know we know what the worst parts of comic book movies but the most I'm quoting him here the most ironic aspect of comic book movies is that most of them aren't actually very much like comic books they tend to be rooted in the hero's awesome prowess the ability to zip through universes smash objects etc um blah blah blah but how like physical and big these stories are yes what's interesting about comic books is because there are no limits to the there's no budget as long as you draw it, it almost naturally, especially over the last few years, has refocused the storytelling eye on the more human stories happening in the midst of the enormity.

32:47Andy Greenwald:Like, they can do things, like have a character who is, I mean, this character was in the movies in the Doctor Strange sequel, but like, America Chavez, whose power is she can punch holes in universes, but that's in some ways the least interesting thing about her. Yeah, I mean, you watch the last Spider-Man movie and it's like everybody was like, Marissa Tomei, you know? It's like people are still responding to the more human aspects of these movies. But movies often are like, well, we can do this. And we have the budget to do it. So we're going to be incredibly noisy first. And we're going to make a movie with Eternut.

33:18Andy Greenwald:Is the appeal that it is about an alien invasion? Or is the appeal for the developers, for the executives? I think it's like a selling point. I think they're like great. For sure. But it's also, we can start to talk about the series a little bit. And I want to be mindful of the fact that people may have heard us talk about this show on Monday and have not watched the entire thing. So we'll try to keep our conversation fairly general. How I kept what? I don't know how. If you started it on Monday, I feel like odds are you're close to finishing it. Yes, but I still don't want to spoil it for anybody until it's a certain point.

33:51So what I will say, and this is a, I would say that there are three or four big twists that happen in the back half of the season. Right? and we can get into those because that's a really good way to talk about what happens in this series. But the remaining, like if somebody was like, why did you like the show? Those twists and those aspects of science fiction would be very far down the list. It would be about the physical, like the personal interactions between these people who are not quite all family, you know, but are forced to come together. I think it would be the depiction of Buenos Aires in this state of ecological or environmental disaster, it would be the procedural aspects of like, okay, so if you can't go outside, how do you go outside?

34:38Or if you can't, how do you eat? What are you eating? What are you doing to pass the time? And then, you know, as they start to realize that older electrical devices that aren't probably run by computers will work, that's fascinating just to see all the old tech come into play and that also probably ties in to the actual time when the comic book was written. You know, it's a very, I don't know if that's the case, but it's a very ingenious fix.

35:02Andy Greenwald:I'm really curious about that since the comic was made in the 50s when people didn't have cell phones and cars didn't have automated computer systems. I guess broadly speaking, there's no real way to talk about the second half of these episodes this season without getting into it. I think the last broad things I would say, the non-spoilery things are, I was dazzled by how true to the show's aesthetic vision and thematic point of view it stayed even with wild swings into more excessive genre elements. I thought that Bruno Stagnaro, who directed it, is a phenomenal director of restraint and style, visual storytelling, you know, in a monochromatic field of, like, making something feel so...

35:49Andy Greenwald:Making you feel anchored in with people that you may only have just met when you're talking about a visual field that is gray, sooty, covered in poison snow, and everyone is wearing, essentially, hazmat suits. Dude, it's really difficult. They meet... Over the course of this season, like the main characters come across something like a dozen to two dozen different people that it's not unincumbent. Like you're, it's incumbent on you to kind of be like, okay, that's this guy. Inga wears that jacket. Yeah, like there's these two old dudes at this church or whatever. And you got to keep that straight.

36:23Many people are wearing gas masks for most of the movie. And then it gets even more confusing as it gets deeper into the story, which we can talk about now. I mean, I would, this is one of my favorite shows of the year. I would highly recommend it to anyone who's...

36:35Andy Greenwald:Last thing. It's been renewed. Yeah. So I think there probably are a bunch of people even who listen to us who are like, I'm not sure I'm ready to invest my chips in or whatever. Like, they're going to tell the whole story. There's a second season. It's been renewed. I think it's going to be eight episodes to finish it out. Cool. So trust. Trust this one. All right. So there are a couple of plot turns to address. Let's talk about. Let's talk the big one. Okay. Okay, so the number one is that the ecological disaster that you assume is some sort of like, are the poles reversing? Is this finally we've melted some iceberg somewhere?

37:09It is in fact an alien invasion. And the aliens are, at least initially, a kind of beetle-like extraterrestrial who are predatory. And when they attack people, wrap them up in a kind of spider web and drag them into a hovel that they've created. All of that stuff is very coolly.

37:33Andy Greenwald:What do they do with them there? Well, I'm just going to get to that. Okay. The victims of that process then come back as body-snatched versions of themselves. So wait, so that is true? That's what happened? Yeah. They're not eating them? No. They eat each other. Did you notice that? I did. I did. That's rough. The game is the game. Is that your feeling? That's what happens, man. I think that moment where the one beetle gets killed and all the other beetles feast on it, They're like, sick, food. This is what's up. This is, get used to it. Genuinely, did you feel like, like in that moment, did you know Trump was going to win again?

38:07Andy Greenwald:In the sense where you're like, this is what we're up against? This is the discipline? Like, this is the maggot discipline? So yes, the victims then come back from their encasement. Yeah, but we don't know that yet. I mean, when we first see that. Yeah, first we see it, and we're like, they're fucking killing these guys and wrapping them up in webs. Now, I, as a person who's seen, Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit know being webbed up is not the end. You know what I mean? Sure. You can make it through that. Also, Game of Thrones, my guy, the one-eyed raven, wasn't he all webbed up and stuff for a long time?

38:42That's right. Well, he was part of a tree, wasn't he?

38:44Andy Greenwald:Listen, it's been years. The victims of that process then come back as body snatch versions of themselves with almost the same personality. Well, shades of it. I would say that they present as themselves, but then there are little elements whether it's a personality characteristic change or lapses in memory that are noticeable to people who are close to them. I think I've been webbed up. So this difference is especially acute in Clara. Okay, wait. But before we start, you're recapping all the show. I said I was going to go through all the twists. I want to talk about a twist at a time. Okay. All right.

39:19I love it when you take the wheel. Go ahead. I appreciate it. Yeah.

39:22Andy Greenwald:But I want to pause for a second because we left off with a show after three episodes and we were loving it. And then the fourth episode tips it into a different thing. And the fourth episode is when, at the end of the third episode, oh no, the bad, these not nice couple, they get got by something. So we know something's out there. The way that the fourth episode is structured is so impressive. Like it is definitely the standout episode just in terms of direction and action. And I can't get over the way that it builds its pace from Juan walking solo again to Tano showing up in the car and being like, we're not throwing away 40 years of friendship.

40:03Andy Greenwald:And then he's like, it's actually 38 years, which made me feel like that's our vibe when the world ends. Because pedants gotta be pedants, you know? And then they encounter the military. There's a big barricade on the bridge made by something. Yes. And they're like, let's follow the military. They've seen us. They start shooting. Wait, they're not shooting at us. And the way this is shot is super like Children of Men style. Yes. Which I also think of as Halo style, like video game style. From your POV, yeah. When the camera swings and the first time we see these bugs. What was first, Children of Men or Halo?

40:38Andy Greenwald:In terms of my heart rankings. No, in terms of like what came out first. Halo. So you think Cuaron was like... What is this, Halo? Master Chief. Yeah. Why does he sound like that? I don't know. Oh, I was trying to make him sound cool. You do your imitation of Alfonso Cuaron writing an op-ed for the Daily Beast about the Xbox being better than... Who were the bad guys in Halo? The Horde? No, the... Oh, that was one of the bad guys. But there was also the... There was like the big dog aliens, right? Oh, yeah. Big dog aliens. Big dog's gotta eat. The Covenant? Is that it? Come on! Yes. Let's go! Come on!

41:20Andy Greenwald:You know, there was a TV show about Halo. Did you know that? I did. I did. You want to talk about it? No, that's not how I want to experience Halo. You want to experience it? I don't want to drive F1 cars, but I want to watch F1. I don't want to be like, tell me a long story about Halo. I want to fucking shoot at the Horde. You want to have, you want to be four yinglings deep with Wu-Tang's The W playing, watching me play up to the part where the Horde comes being like, it's a little scary right here. And you being like, actually, I can handle it. and then you writing an op-ed in my voice talking about how video games are too scary now.

41:53Andy Greenwald:The POV shots of the Beatles. And so, because then when we actually see the bugs, I did, it took me a second. Yes, I received that text message. Okay. Yeah. Okay, we're doing this. And all respect to my Argentine brothers in the VizFX department, but like this was, it's okay. The design is cool and scary, but like in terms of perfectly integrating CGI creatures into the world, it was a little, a little less smooth than some of the more expensive shows we were seeing. But what I really appreciated over the course of the episode was the, again, I've used this word like three times, the restraint that they use in giving us bug content that I think budgetarily they couldn't just keep having hordes of bugs dance across the screen.

42:40Andy Greenwald:So instead seeing them in passing on top of the bridge, hearing them, seeing the after effects of them being afraid of them benefited the story so much and kept the focus where it always should be which is on these very very normal I feel like I didn't articulate this well the other day when I was like this show isn't woke in its casting what I mean is everyone in the show is old and unsexy and that makes a massive visual difference from the types of shows that we usually watch on Spike TV yeah and then I there are so many little inventions I'm sure of the comic but used to great to great effect in the show of like you were mentioning like hiding the bugs a little bit I think that they rip the bandaid off and they're like it's gonna be what it's gonna be these bugs need to be running around you have to see them they have to be afraid of them and they're physically scary yes and then they the bugs build that fucking like wall of cars to wall off the city and that's that's where you were talking about like oh the noises like you can see like a car like moving a little bit there's the santa claus balloon that kind of floats above the i believe i sent you the butterfly is the cinema it is jpeg it is um okay so then one of the ways that they kind of uh not a lied but like they get around like okay how often are we going to show a swarm of bugs running at people some of it happens at night so it looks cooler and then we start to get the people coming out of the their their imprisonment their webbed up imprisonment and they are different and they are now working in some sort of concert with other people i wanted to ask you about people coming out of their other kind of imprisonment of the woke mind virus i mean it's a long time coming there were people like i think I think I stopped wearing a mask when we started doing video on this podcast.

44:37Andy Greenwald:I think that was when I stopped wearing a mask. No, but there are people who are washing their mail like deep into 2021 and into 2022. Maybe it's for the purposes of drama. Maybe they're just made of hardier stuff in South America, but like they went from everything outside is instantly killing everyone to, I guess if I break out this old Helly Hansen parka, I should be fine. That was real fast. I know that for the production purposes, they shot this kind of right after the restrictions in Buenos Aires lifted. And so that was one of the reasons why they were able to get so many empty streets. This was shot like still coat?

45:2023, I think.

45:21Andy Greenwald:No. How long did it take to draw them bugs? I mean, wow. But are you asking me like, how long would it take for me to decide to go outside? Yeah, and be like, okay. I mean... You'd be the mayor of inside, indoors? I'm the king of everything I see. Maybe I'll read Buddenbrooks and continue my Thomas Mann survey. I was so fun in early COVID. I think that the thing that would be the biggest leap of faith for me happens I believe in episode 5. Yeah. It stops snowing? It stops snowing. and the, I don't know if I have the courage to be the first homie to step out into the world without my mask on. That's the thing.

46:04I'll be second.

46:05Andy Greenwald:And also, I want to be respectful of everyone else, you know? Like, I'm a community, I'm in a community of the world. So that, like, even in, like, 22, when I would go running wearing, like, a little, like, neck gait or whatever, if I pass someone, I'd be like, you never know, you know? Yes. They were just like, I guess it's better now. It just happened real fast. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I respect it. Okay, yeah. So people, so then we start to get the sense that but let's okay so you're talking about Clara so much of the first half of the season is looking for Clara looking for Clara and we know from the very opening moments the cold open essentially of the show that Clara was not where she said she was going to be she was actually on her godfather Tano's boat which she had taken out with two friends to party basically smoke cigs just just lead a very CR coded existence the sea the darts the preparedness yeah and And her sudden appearance feels completely disorienting, as it is to Juan, right?

47:03Andy Greenwald:He says later to Lucas that like, I felt like you were all putting me on, that this is somehow some sort of staged performance. And again, the thing I admire most about the show was the way the behind-the-scenes structure and the story itself complemented each other. That with a six-episode season, another episode of Juan and his ex-wife just walking through this hellscape in an absolutely pyrrhic attempt to find one person who is probably not alive would have been diminishing returns. They yada-yada'd the story in a way that, and maybe this is how it happens in the comic, we don't know, but they yada-yada'd the story in a way that then pivoted the story itself.

47:47Andy Greenwald:Like, wow, this is too good to be true. It's a miracle, they say. It is too good to be true. It is too good to be true. It's a wonderful example of the creators leaning into whatever limitations they may have had in terms of budget or time or space. That's a really good observation about that. I mean, like, I hadn't really thought about the way that that actually hinges the entire story to being more suspicious of people like Clara or Lukey or whoever. When he wanders off. But there's also the other piece of it, which I don't know if you shared as well, which was a little bit of audience relief.

48:18Andy Greenwald:That we didn't have to show everything. that if it really was Clara, if she really remembered that he played cards and went there, it's a little convenient, but it's better for the real estate we have of six hours to get moving and get to the other place. And there were a bunch of examples of that where I realized like five episodes in that Juan and then Tano have left their spouses or ex-spouses and friends multiple times without any very American scenes of you are my rock. I will be back for you, mi vida. Like they just left. I kind of took it to be like, these are middle-aged men who finally have some adventure in their life.

48:53I'm being completely serious. I feel like that guy Tano is like, I get lost in my devices. I get lost in my little Mr. Fix-It stuff, in my reading, in my science. And now all of a sudden, everything that I've been studying has kind of become real. And I can actually apply some of my passions and obsessions to the real world. And he's like, I don't really want to go home and argue about who gets the soup. I want to be out here in the world.

49:16Andy Greenwald:and it benefits us. Like, by the time you get to the sixth episode, there is a feeling that we get very, very rarely, I think, especially in this particular age of television, where a little bit of a, wait, did the needle jump the groove? Did I skip an episode? Did I miss something? And what you're actually experiencing is just economical storytelling. Like the way that in the journey to Campo de Mayo, which is the big military installation where they head, apparently being manipulated to head by the end of the season. There's just, without paying much attention to it, the younger people in this found family have really gravitated to each other.

49:53Andy Greenwald:And Inga and Pablo, and then also the Boy Scouts from the church, like they are now basically their own clan. And we didn't need to see that forming. We've met them, we get it, and we move on. And I found that to be so, so refreshing. Even when they go on their big mission in the sixth episode. To the train. To the train, to the radio, to whatever. I'm not saying the show didn't explain what they were doing. I'm saying that when caught up in my first viewing of it, I missed a couple details. And so by the time they... That was a little bit... Because it's dark, and I think because of the speed with which they move through it, there seems to be...

50:28Like, Tano is resistant. They asked Tano to go downtown, which is infested with bugs, to send out a distress signal using a radio tower that they have there. And he's the only one who understands this sort of more classic vintage radio technology. They're going to send a bunch of soldiers with him. They do an awesome train busting through the wall of cars move, but then suspiciously the bugs are not chasing them at all. And I thought that there was some elements of that, like the train conductor who was like, you didn't trust me, but now you can trust me because I'm the train conductor. And he's like, okay, I guess I trust you.

51:05I was a little confused. That was where, whoa, there's been a lot of people at different meetups at the various points that are now showing up here.

51:13Andy Greenwald:But I didn't mind it because I was enjoying the experience. And then Stagnar does a really good job of walking us through his visual story. Yes. The way that it's revealed to us that we have seen a blank-faced girl at the end, we have seen her before. That she's the woman on the train who writes ayuda in, I'm sorry for my friends in Buenos Aires, ayuda in lipstick. are you crying or laughing no just thinking about Carrie Condon fixing cares you just went in on it aw like that was a really nice little detail little anchoring detail and the like I also just like that it ran right at some stuff now we haven't I'm really looking forward to reading the comic for people who are interested in it the great publisher indie publisher Fantagraphics has published an English version of it in the past.

52:09Andy Greenwald:And if you go to their website, you can pre-order it because they are very, with good reason, they are reprinting it. So it will be out again soon. But there are clearly elements from the story in this that were non-negotiable. It's also very fun to actually think about the history of Argentina and the history of the author of this comic and think about why he might find his friends and neighbors coming back slightly changed or afraid to talk about things or unable to remember things scary and relevant. And then there's just some stuff that it's like, well, this is the story we're telling. And what's the best version of it that makes sense with our visual and tonal language?

52:46Andy Greenwald:And to me, the best expression of that is the hand of the master alien, the puppeteer alien, which is revealed so subtly and revealed in a shot that makes it look like a blue hand. Yeah. And I was actually quite Lynchian. It was super Lynchian. And then the hand sort of turns and flicks and there's many fingers. and it was unsettling. It wasn't like, oh, sick or whoa, the aliens are coming. It was disturbing and haunting and subtle. And it didn't leave me, the show, the season left me being like, man, Juan's really in it. Maybe not for the first time. It's a little bit confusing where we're headed next.

53:24Andy Greenwald:Yeah, that would be the last twist, which is that Juan seems convinced now that he has actually not just having flashes or visions. He has done this. It's deja vu. This has happened before, which is another like history repeating itself kind of. He's had to do this before. Indication of its actual real world ties and influence of the comic to the actual history of Argentina. And also just the decisions that seem subtle but are so appropriate to this. And I think there's something to be studied here. It's like it doesn't leave us with an army of bugs massing on the horizon or encircling Campo de Mayo or the reveal of the eight-fingered space fish god or whatever.

54:05I don't even think they actually get into the River Stadium, right?

54:08Andy Greenwald:No. No, we don't even know. It ends with our very human hero being like, what? Yeah. Which is, frankly, how we all feel every day as middle-aged men in 2025. I cannot recommend this show highly enough. I hope people check it out. I can't wait for the second season. I wonder if they shot it pretty much as a big block and are working on like where did we do season one season two because um yeah i wish like this was like what three body problem had done you know like i wish they had i i really agree do you mean in terms of like i think i think in terms of the release schedule certainly but also there's parts of this that i wish three body had kind of adapted now three body problem has major leaps of time and reality within the show itself.

54:58But I was thinking about Dark and I was thinking about other shows like Revenant you brought up. But I was thinking about shows that could learn something from the way Eaternot did. Yeah, well, I'm also curious,

55:10Andy Greenwald:and maybe this is a conversation we could have with creators of some of these types of shows, is like, what is the skill set that you bring to it and what is the passion that you bring to it? And for all the flaws of Three Body Problem, of which there are many, a lot of the fondness I have for the show was that I understood why D.B. Weiss and David Benioff did it. Like why they were the ones to do it. Because as someone who has started and not finished the novel, it's unfilmable. Not because it's set in China, but because it is so omniscient, jumping from place to place and time and time. And they were like, we're going to...

55:46By eons, right? Like, yeah.

55:47Andy Greenwald:Yes, we're going to make this show about a couple of mates in London, which first of all, I was in on that. But we're going to focus the whole story in these characters and then build the story outward from that. That is a choice and that is a skill that they brought to it. Stagnaro has a different skill set and a different interest in the material. but it and and and he is helped by the fact that i think the mandate was tell the story of this comic book and we'll you know if all works out we'll give you this many hours to do it in 14 hours whereas the the balancing act this goes to our slow horses conversation which is like the more critical production decisions and vision decisions you can have early the better three body problems seems like it was conceived of hired put into motion as one thing which is this is going to be our game of thrones this is going to be yeah this will be on for five or six years.

56:35Andy Greenwald:This is going to be on five, six, seven, eight years, and we're going to just, you know, entrance and entertain the planet with this next great saga. And then somewhere between that announcement and the very weird muted, okay, we'll make a second season, it became like, we'll let these guys play out the string and we'll negotiate over the, we'll give them 200 million more dollars to make, what would that be for them, three episodes? Right. But jokes aside, they changed what it was. You wonder whether going back and being like, hey, Stranger Things, you're going to be on for six seasons, changes how they make Stranger Things.

57:06Because they kept trying to top themselves with special effects, which I think is why it takes so long to finish these seasons now. So, very interesting to see whether once we get through the Paramount merger, post Superman, Warner Brothers, HBO Max is back, Disney, all these places, as they go into 26, as they go into 27, do they maybe make bets that are like, I think this could be easily a double. And if we do it right, it's like a homer. But let's not start thinking like every night has to be a sellout. Like we can kind of pace ourselves into this a little bit.

57:43Andy Greenwald:Yeah. That kind of thinking. But we're committed. We're here for a couple of seasons. We're not really, this industry has never been particularly good at that. But especially now when, you know, the things are commissioned for one service and then are released on a service that didn't exist when the thing was commissioned. But I will also say that looking internationally for this sort of thing is it's not just viable. It's viable creatively, clearly. Obviously economically. But economically, because this might not be true, but the reported budget for season one of Eternot on Netflix that we loved, that my one budget thing is like the first appearance of the bugs made me go, huh, that's it?

58:20Yeah.

58:21Andy Greenwald:The budget apparently was$15 million US for the series. That is considerably less. That's like an episode of shrinking. Yes. essentially Last of Us episodes I think I don't know whether this is officially or unofficially are 20 to 25 million dollars each yeah so okay make your stuff in Argentina that's what we're saying I think we should make our stuff in Argentina Andy lovely to see you we'll be back on Monday only one show next week because this is Spotify Wellness Week next week so get well to you is it for everyone or is it just me because of my corrosive takes because of your toxic social media.

59:01Andy Greenwald:Is that the problem? Thank you to Kaya. Thank you to John. We'll be back on Monday. Everybody have a great weekend. I noticed you thank Kaya. My thanks. We'll see.

59:18This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods, who has your back to school eats sorted. Wow, we're going back to school already. They've got your fast and easy breakfast covered with frozen waffles and pancakes. Lunch boxes are looking tasty with organic seedless grapes and baby carrots and essentials like cheese sticks. Then for dinner, you can build your own meal. Choose from a variety of entrees like chicken scallopini and two sides. And it's all good too. Whole Foods has banned more than 300 food ingredients store wide. Shop back to school must-haves at Whole Foods Market in-store or online.

59:49This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about chat GPT work? It's the new way to use chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give chat GPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chat GPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans.