ABC Suspends Jimmy Kimmel, Why You Should Check Out Netflix’s ‘Black Rabbit’, and ‘Alien: Earth’ Episode 7

24:47She's just clipping. You're calling us a kleptocracy. And then me being like, huh? You think? I'm just going to stitch together a few of your Kimmel stuff, and then I think we'll be good for a couple weeks. I'll plan the wedding for free now. Like, whatever. We work for her. Speaking of weddings, did you have anything else non-show related that you wanted to discuss on your shadow docket? No, you can move on. The finale of the summer I turned pretty occurred this week. Oh, yes. I bring this up for a couple of reasons. Wedding, you know, obviously was a major element of the third season. Spoilers for the end of this if you haven't...

25:25Has Kaia caught up? She hasn't, but she knows what happens. Okay, just don't piss her off. And almost immediately after this show aired, which I have... I have my thoughts about the finale. I don't really know if you need to hear them. It was... I thought... well done to a point. When there is a central relationship in a show that every single person who's watching is consumed by, I just don't need to see Jair's pop-up. He's a cook, I heard. Yeah, he's a chef. The hottest chef in Boston. Well, tallest dwarf, but all right. Clip that, Kaya. You're on. But, you know, set in Paris, Conrad shows up.

26:12confesses his love again to her. What's funny is you're acting like in my household. And she Heisman's him for a while. What date did this premiere yesterday? It came out Tuesday at midnight or so Wednesday at midnight. So do you know when it was playing at my house? 6 a.m. Wednesday. 6 a.m. yesterday. That is, there's two, there are two wolves here and you either stay up late or you get up early. But the interesting part is just that they announced very quickly after the finale aired that they are going to be making a movie epilogue, I guess. This is probably good business for Amazon. I would say there's not a ton of ambiguity about how the show ended in terms of who she chose and what state their relationship is in.

26:54If I had to guess, this will probably be more of a fun reunion and tying up loose ends than it would be something tragic and or dramatic happens. But I could be wrong.

27:05Andy Greenwald:Do you know what the comparison and ought to be, I think, for this, sincerely, is Downton Abbey. Because Downton Abbey as a franchise, Julian Phillips as a corrector. Yeah, good call. As a creator. I said crector, which is collector slash creator. In Trump's America, we're all crectors. We are.

27:29Andy Greenwald:He found a way to somehow keep the balloon afloat, even though... People just want to spend time with these people. In the world. And so it seems like Jenny Han has a sense of like, we can just keep them hanging out. We can put a few more problems in front of them. Low stakes obstacles. And what did she say in the press release? Like the next chapter of their journey? She was like, there's one major life, like hallmark or life moment that we need to go through with Belly. And I was like, this is when she finds out that she's been an agent for Treadstone this entire time. Hell yes. I thought it was when Jer partners with his brother, Jason Bateman, who's a bit of a ne 'er-do-well, his other brother, on a restaurant in Lower Manhattan.

28:05Can I just recap a show I watched this week for you before we get to Alien and Black Rabbit. You watched more shows? I watched a show this week and I wanted to just describe the plot and see if it's something that might interest you. Cool. An Iranian nuclear scientist defects. A movie producer loses his star actress on the day of shooting in the biggest stunt in his film. The TV rights to the Olympic Games are put into jeopardy and an environmental disaster strikes. Whoa. One guess. Just take a guess. The front page of the Wall Street Journal on Tuesday. No. Sense8 by the Wachowski siblings. I'm out of guesses.

28:41The Morning Show, season four. Hell yeah. I wondered if we were going to be talking about it. Good use of the shadow docket. Good job. Possibly the most expensive show I've ever seen in my life. Now, they are no longer even pretending to be in someone's apartment. It's gauzy, matte painting windows. I think that they've probably consolidated some of the production of this. but there literally are no non-famous people in this show anymore like it's just everyone's if they need someone to be someone's agent it's will arnett if marion cotillard who is in this show needs a boyfriend it's erin pierre you know it's so wild jennifer aniston's father it's out there jeremy irons it's fucking crazy dude that's so that is just every time you check your phone yeah jeremy irons is like yes like oh because of it's an apple phone so you think tim cook somehow got through the emmys yeah i think so uh that's wild it does help me it does track with my previously held opinion that everyone is behaving like it's last call at the money bar and like this is all ending scene so we got to get there quickly but like i honestly admire them for being like, well, we could keep this as like a kind of soapy office drama about these two women who respect each other but are constantly like rival, like are also rivals.

30:10And instead they're like, what has to happen is Alex Levy, who's Jennifer Aniston's character, needs to facilitate the defection of an Iranian nuclear scientist and his gymnast daughter. And it has to happen at Jennifer Aniston's TV studio interview.

30:23Andy Greenwald:Do you feel like there was a meeting of like the local chapter of SAG or like the Broadway Actors Alliance where they were like, great news, like Morning Show is going to film in New York. And like there was a moment when they thought it was going to be law and order for them where they were like, Jennifer Aniston needs a father. And like beloved that guy character actor, Peter Garrity was just like, Papa's going to work one more time. Flying Jeremy Irons on a private plane. Yes. That's cool. The only other thing that I heard about this season was that I believe, is this correct that it's set in 2024, but it's not about that?

30:56Like there's no election going on? So far it's about the Olympics and the Olympic coverage. Let's keep focused. Casey Wasserman is thrilled. That's awesome. Paris Olympics. No, I know. He wants the story focused on the beautiful Olympic flame and how it goes from one location to another. Yes, I'm sure that the season will end with the Olympic flame writhing in Los Angeles. Tom Cruise brought it here. Yeah. Remember that? It was a simpler time. Maybe he'll make an appearance on the morning show.

31:22Andy Greenwald:You have done something in the past where you have a couple scratch-off tickets that you can use, and one of them is to make me watch something. And it has to do with nuclear scientists defecting? Well, I leaned in at that point. Yeah. But you used it for me to watch the January 6th episode of the morning show? Yes. We'll monitor the situation. If you need me back on this for anything, I'm willing. I stay up later than Greenwald. That's true. My wife and I have several shows that we watch together. Morning Show is one of them. It just is a great conversation starter. Clearly, look at us. Look at this banter.

31:58I don't know why you guys are looking at me. What do you think? Do you think that gymnast should have defected on television? Anyway, that's what I've been doing. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll talk about Alien Earth and Black Rabbit. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Telling someone you love them, it isn't always easy, but showing them through food, sometimes that's better than words, especially when that food's wok cooked at Panda Express, a Joe House favorite. Pick from delicious classics like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, Kung Pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak.

32:36Perfect for when you're watching the team you love or eating with the person you love. Have you eaten yet? Click or tap the banner to order or visit a Panda Express near you. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a two percenter. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash.

33:13Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures. More than ever, America needs a laugh. Enter the Super Troopers to the rescue. The cult comedy classic returns in the most offensive installment yet with Super Troopers 3, a debaucherous bachelor party, an over-the-top wedding, a dangerous drug smuggling ring. All of them are threatening the troops' future. Fill your liter of cola and roll up to the multiplex with Super Troopers 3, only in theaters August 7th. Get tickets. Meow. 100 free events, 6 ,000 kids, one mission. Clinic Kids is using sports and evidence-based wellness coaching to help kids build confidence, resilience, and the tools they need for life's challenges and opportunities.

33:59Up through August 2026, they're running 100 free sessions for school and community-based organizations near you. Learn more at clinickids.com slash 100kk. That's clinic with a K. Clinic Kids is registered by the 1C3 non-profit. All right, buddy. Dealers choice. What do you want to do first?

34:16Andy Greenwald:Oh, I think we should do Alien because we've been talking about it. Black Rabbit people may be in various places in the viewing since it came out last night. If you want to timestamp us, I don't think Black Rabbit season one has reached some right-turn-pretty finale status. It hasn't broken contain. It's not BC, as we say. Okay, so Alien Earth episode seven. It's called Emergence. It was written by Noah Hawley and Marina Melnick. and it was directed by Dana Gonzalez, Holly's oftentimes collaborator. DP, yeah. Let's do this. Let's start here. Why is this show making me such a fucking hall monitor?

34:53Why am I such a narc about this? Because I like to think, what I don't want is for all TV criticism to be pointing out logical flaws in plot. You know, be like, well, how would he do this? Or why would they do that? Or what's happening here? Like, this doesn't make any sense. Like, I don't think that's really a useful way to think about culture or art is just to constantly be nitpicking like that. And I think the reason why I do it with this show specifically is because I don't think that there are any like real people in it. So if the characters aren't exhibiting any consistent kind of behavior that reaches me or touches me or moves me or I connect with, then you really are kind of dependent on the show making some kind of sense.

35:42Now, this was the penultimate episode. There could be reveals in the finale next week that explain some things. I think that I was holding on hope that the Timothy Olyphant character, Kirsch, was somehow orchestrating some of this, was a double agent. And he's still slippery. He could be working for himself. But I think that the reason why, when I see the first scene of this episode, and it's somehow occurred that slightly one of the young synths has has dragged a adult man comatose body of Arthur with a face hugger on it through a ventilation shaft supposedly down a hallway and into his room and without showing like oh is there anybody in the hallway like was he not monitored i guess at this point now kirsch is kind of like consolidating all of the observation of these people and deciding when to say something went wrong but there's that there's uh kind of the rather brute force way moro decides to like take the island which is like walk through the front door um there's a lot of moments like that where I find myself basically like fixating on whether or not something makes sense instead of whether or not it feels right.

37:12Totally. So I guess it feels wrong is what I'm saying. Um, I'm not mad about this, but I think that I'm just trying to kind of unwind when I'm watching a TV show, I don't want to be like, Hey, stop running on the side of the pool.

37:26Andy Greenwald:I think, I mean, look, once a lifeguard, always a lifeguard. So I don't blame you for it. I think that there are a lot of nits to pick. I think when a character says, we're going to be late, we have to hurry, and then when you see that character again and he's taking the time to build a wooden raft to transport a corpse. I also thought those guys were like super strong. Yes. They could probably just carry him. What's up with that? Similarly, the high security lab is the most trafficked place and the most used set in the show. It is equivalent to the break room with the vending machines on the office in terms of how many people are there on top of each other at any given time.

38:05That beggars belief a little bit. I think the point you made that's really worth returning to

38:12Andy Greenwald:is the show only works if its central conceit delivers. And the central conceit of the show, which again, construction-wise, I think is very, very smart and admirable and potentially wise, which is what can you do with this franchise over eight episodes with more in-depth exploration of it. And I think Noah looked at the history of the movies and saw that it's not just that there's xenomorphs and Ripleys. There are also synths and half people, half man, half machine. And corporations. And so what, and which, you know, really are people too, as we've learned over the last decade. God bless them all.

38:49Andy Greenwald:And what is the thematic string to pull within that? And I think the answer, especially when you bring aliens to Earth, is what does it mean to be human? which is a very, very broad, but very, very often rewarding question to ask in any art form. I think that the show has struggled to answer that question in any affecting emotional way, which is a bummer. Now, I would also say that it's an interesting assignment for a filmmaker like Noah, who is so incredibly talented at so many different parts of the television making storytelling process. I would say respectfully that from the work of his that we've enjoyed the most and that we've celebrated the most, whether it's the first two seasons of Fargo or Legion, which I was lucky enough to work in a very small capacity on in the first season of, the best characters are usually the most extreme.

39:51Andy Greenwald:They are avatars of points of view, of zeitgeists, of thematic intent, of politics, of culture. They are very rarely just a person trying to get through their day. Now, you could argue, quibble point by point, you know, whether it's like Alison Tolman's cop in the first season. I was going to say. Sure. Is also the most like Marge from Fargo, the movie. They are. That is the one that was like, but what about Alison Tolman? But you could say that that is like almost direct adaptation in some way, indirect adaptation. Well, it's what he does best, which is it's a tribute to something we've seen used in a way that maybe we haven't seen before.

40:31Andy Greenwald:You know, this is, I want to be very clear because I can feel Kaya's hands moving towards the edit button that like the ability to do that, to do television storytelling on a very high thematic level is very, very hard. But I find it less rewarding in this show when the most human moments available again because of maybe the real estate that you have in eight episodes the budget expense the storytelling weight the fucking alien that has to go ham every episode and a half the eyeball that's peter garrity by the way in a big suit god bless him 85 years young still nimble um when then the most human moment is like dame sylvia like scrolling through photos of her husband on her ipad yeah but that's the problem with that is that she just blithely was like like their marriage is weird like it's interesting and like we should hear about it because they are a married couple who are also respectfully were they are were a married couple who supervised this great leap forward in scientific uh research and development and apparently child free by choice but are parental figures for these and they had a crucial disagreement about what is moral and ethical about what they were doing what they were being asked to do by their by their bosses and instead of having a debate between the two of them or a scene a beat a moment dame sylvia is just like i'll do it and arthur's like no and then they're like you're fired get out and she's like oh well you know like there's no kind of like there's no realistic like emotional in exchange between two of the only humans we have yes and and then when you do see feints toward And so when she's scrolling, I'm like, why?

42:22You didn't, she just saw him 10 minutes ago and didn't care. Well, I assume that when I leave work today, you will spend a few moments before recording another podcast just looking at old pictures of me. Yeah. Hopefully I have a better, you know, gastrointestinal experience later. That guy got canceled. Honestly, likely. Like the scene on the beach, like in Arthur's few moments. When he's like, I love you, or we love, you know.

42:49Andy Greenwald:I thought that was very affecting and very sweet through. Did he say I love you? Am I making that up? I think that's just like, he's like, want to have a catch? Kids, you're like, the screen got really blurry there. Dana Gonzalez did a bad job focusing. Anyway. No, it was very sweet. And like the hand holding was also a nice like touch. And it was well performed. It's not very much. We don't get very much of that. I think that moment was very sweet and added something new to a mythos that usually is limited to two hours and is much more extreme and about, are you alive or are you getting got? Yeah.

43:25Andy Greenwald:And the ratio of those things, it does feel perpetually out of whack. I did have a question just like, what do you think Arthur's like? It's really hot in Thailand. It's pretty sweaty. And he has spent, I don't know how much time in a vent with a absolutely disgusting space squid with its, like, I don't know what part of it jammed down his throat. Uh-huh. And then it comes off of his face, and he's just like, hey, guys. Well, that's what John Hurt does in Alien. No, I know. I know there's precedent. Yeah. I guess I'm just wondering, like, hygiene-wise, like, do you think he's, like, does he smell like an aquarium at this point?

44:03Well, but it's not like the synths or the hybrids, they're not like, oh, you stink. Because they're polite. Well, I have questions about all the different, like, levels of expertise that the hybrids have. Sure. So, like, Wendy is a super soldier who can speak alien. Isaac is, like, downloading all scientific information ever. Was. And Curly is trying to catch him in the AP Power Pool. But then there's, like, three kids who are like, I'm an idiot. What's it like? Right?

44:41I mean, some kids, that's their thing. I have a stuffed animal and, like, these other two. Like, what do they do? Do they have jobs? Why does Isaac and Curly have to like... First of all, if you're the kind of guy who's like, why aren't these kids having jobs? You're going to do great in the next five to ten years. You were born at the right time. There's a position of power waiting for you in the Department of Labor. Secondarily, that's really funny. Like, I think that you could... Wouldn't you be like, I guess maybe there's only like a 50 % hit rate on this new technology. Right. But wouldn't you be like, put those three back in the lab and up their juice?

45:20I would say that there is kind of a lack of infrastructure.

45:26Andy Greenwald:We've read a lot in the last two weeks about how it might not be that young quarterbacks fail their team. It might be that the team fails their quarterback. Yeah, it's true. So it's very possible that they did the hybrid thing on like four Caleb Williamses. You know what I mean? Like all the tools in the world on paper, you get him in the room. By the way, Arthur has big Shane Waldron vibes. okay, I've learned recently, not very confrontational. Yeah. So I can sort of see that. So maybe they just aren't ready to step up when you have a multi-billion dollar corporation or let's call it a league that is expecting them to really carry the day.

46:03Then I guess the next, what's the next version of this? That like putting them into the tower in episode one is like having a rookie play. But if you're a boy cavalier, don't you hire the Shani of robots? Like don't you hire the Kyle Shanahan of robot development who's just like, I can take any fucking robot and turn him into... No, because if you're Boy Cavalier, you hire four people, and then you just walk around barefoot all day. Yeah. Like, it is just, it's just, it's asking a few too many things to hold together. Yeah. You know, like, the idea of, like, who's keeping track of who, when, at any moment,

46:38Andy Greenwald:like, it doesn't feel fair for an audience to be doing this calculation, all these calculations. Like Kirsch, eye-padding it around, being kind of in charge, took some of the stink off of it for a little bit. But it does reach a point where it's just hard to keep track of who is keeping track of anyone at any time. Wendy can turn on them and be like, you shouldn't have done that, and then leave. And they can all look at each other and be like, oh, I hope she's not mad. Too bad we can do nothing to stop her, even though we have a big button marked stop Wendy. And she just depowers, right? Or whatever.

47:14I think the idea there is that, like, Wendy is just up against the line of, like, you guys might not be able to stop her. Because I don't think they have a remote control that just shuts her down, do they? Wouldn't you? Yeah, I would have a kill switch for sure. Yeah. These guys, I mean, you know, Cavalier is right there in his name. I suppose it is. Move fast and break things. Look, and it's the kind of thing where for the first two years, your offensive system, like, dazzles the league. and the next thing you know, you're going to play the Bills in a make or break game and you might be the ex-coach of the Miami Dolphins.

47:46You watch Morning Show, I read The Athletic. And this is where we meet. I want to talk to you a little bit about what has been characterized in the press as the big moment of the episode, which is fair enough. It's the finale, like the concluding couple of minutes where Hermit, Wendy, and Nibs are trying to escape the island. that's just a little boat that's not even like a go fast boat I don't even know where they are or what civilization beyond this new Siam looks like the Wayland people just kind of walked there it looks like they're trying to get off this boat it turns out Hermit going around to everybody on the island and being like is there a boat can I get it do you have the code I'd like to get my sister off of this island loose lips sunk the ship was fine.

48:37Ship was fine. I guess Nibs wasn't fine. Loose lips sink. Nibs. So basically, as they're trying to get off this island and get to the dock, it turns out that Wendy has pretty decent control over a xenomorph and can instruct it to kill, hide, follow, save them, whatever. There's a fight on the boat where they're trying to get off and Hermit's old compatriots try to stop them. At one point, it looks like Nibs is going to kill one of Hermit's colleagues, and Hermit stuns her with a gun, but it seems like it kills her.

49:20Andy Greenwald:He does the electric thing that I think works on xenomorphs. Right, and she seemed real messed up by that. She did. Yeah. Wendy is like, what did you do? What did you do? Which seems like the strange question. I think it's very clear what he did. I think the idea is, Wendy is viewing this as like, it's us against everybody. Right. And there's no distinctions, which I suppose you could say would be a human trait, although we haven't really seen a ton of that in Humanity recently. You can make some distinctions between like, well, these people work for these people. It's just following orders or whatever.

49:57But what did you make of the moment? And did you feel like it hit the dramatic heights that I think it was supposed to?

50:03Andy Greenwald:No. I found it all a little muddled and confusing. Which is weird because it's shot in broad daylight. Which is also maybe not the right choice. I don't know. Let's walk it back a couple steps. Again, in terms of your security protocols and what works in a two-hour movie versus an eight-hour show, creating hybrids who can touch monitors and do anything does seem like a God-level cheat code that is pretty tough to work your way out of. So she touches the screen and frees the xenomorph, and then off it goes. I guess at that moment, she has made a decision, Wendy, about what's important to her, which is like what you said, right?

50:49Andy Greenwald:It's just them getting off the island. Everybody else can... Right. I was going to say live with it, but it's actually the reverse. Die with it, yeah. when they are then confronted in their journey and by the way I should say the scene where they saw their gravestones was a good scene that was another like a moment that was like evocative thoughtful and paid off its premise then the the Wayland Goons come out of the the marsh grasses they're wearing their ghillie suits and Wendy does a does a dog whistle and the alien comes and wreck shop Duolingo does wonders I get I get so many passive-aggressive Duolingo messages because my daughter used my email to join Duolingo and has embarked on language journeys on four different languages.

51:36Andy Greenwald:It is pissy. They got to start being a lot nicer to you because you know like the AirPods now can translate. Oh, so wait, so who should be nicer to me? Like Duolingo should be like, hey, we'd love for you to just hang out with us a little bit more again. Like you're such a good time. Instead of like, we're really disappointed that you haven't kept your streak alive. Seems like you don't really want to learn French. Quel dommage. Why are you looking at Kaya? She knows that's French just because she was in Italy recently. Look here. That's not one. Eyes here. Hey, come on. Anyway, I like that you're just sort of low-key threatening Duolingo, like they're about to be taken out of business.

52:16The daylight thing, it wasn't so much to me that the xenomorph didn't look a little goofy in the daylight.

52:23Andy Greenwald:It was when the xenomorph is walking over to Wendy in what should be kind of a cool scene. And there have been moments, at least in my memory, of the Alien franchise where Ripley has come very close to Alien. Yes, especially in Resurrection. Yes, exactly. When the Alien recognizes a little bit of itself in her, right? Quite literally, yes. Yes, so that moment. So there's a little bit of an echo to that, much like, and Noah's really good at these sort of recognition echoes throughout the work that he adapts or iterates from. My eye was drawn to Joe, to Hermit, to Alex Lothar's character, who I think is one of the most exciting young actors out there.

52:59Andy Greenwald:I love everything he does from End of the Fucking World to Howard's End to Andor. Excited to see him playing a different kind of role. So this is in no way, Kaya, a criticism of Alex Lothar. But if you watch him in that scene, my main takeaway was he does not know what he's playing here or he hasn't been told what he's playing because he looks a little confused, a little worried. And it's like, what actually is the character playing? He is face to face with a space monster that tried to kill him multiple times. Not this specific one, but you know what I mean. Punctured his lung and is generally something that one should avoid.

53:37Andy Greenwald:He's also protective of his sister. And now it's walking up to his sister and being friends with him and also has just violently massacred people in front of him. And he is a medic. This is like runs, is antithetical to his whole core belief system. Yeah, he's a conscientious objector. What do I do here? So then when the B side to that story is now other people are going to murder other soldiers, again, with no distinction between who is who. And he's just like, I want people to stop killing people. And she's like, what did you do? He shot his girl, right? Her girl. Yeah. Right. But we know, I guess fundamentally, I don't think it is as leading a question.

54:14One of the more interesting ideas that the show put into play, and I don't know if I found that it either intellectually or visually met the moment, but I still respect the fact that it kicked this around, is what is it that would make Wendy Marcy? What does she retain other than some references to culture? Like we used to watch Ice Age together. Do you remember that? That would make it her. And would Alex know the difference? and that is hermit you know the difference and that's why kirsch and cavalier keep them on the island in the first place is to basically like do a kind of stress test stress test of like is she recognizable to this person like would that be and i think there's that line where it's like if if she if it's not recognizable to the family then what we have is a very expensive failure right like yes i thought that that just got i think maybe the fact that that got swallowed up into an action sequence was maybe why we both are reacting the same way which is like i just don't know if that moment hit as hard i think as it was supposed to because it's because it's it's there's a lot of like confusing developments and furthermore i think by that point in the episode I was starting to be like, so there's a hundred soldiers on this island who can surround the five or ten guys that Yutani sent.

55:42But they were not around for the containment of aliens or like the securing of of hybrids. So then that leads me to wonder, like, is the experiment really like how are these hybrids interacting with these Xenors? But I actually think like I've gotten past that. And I'm just like, that's not there is not a master conspiracy going on in this show. there is a, this is what you see is what you get.

56:04Andy Greenwald:You're asking, I think that's very well framed. I think it's very generous interpretation. And I think it's very, I get that. That makes sense to me. And again, with the show, conceptually, I am on board for it. It's in terms of execution. Like I did not find it to be particularly enjoyable hour of television because of the way there were so many, there's so much turbulence in terms of the experience of watching it. There are moments like the moment when Cavalier quizzes the sheep eyeball on pie. That's sick. That's like really cool. It's a great scene. It's executed. It's shot well. Like it's creepy.

56:40Andy Greenwald:It's disturbing. When the show hits, the show hits, but it does not have a fluidity or a flow in terms of, in a way that makes it a week-to-week compelling, pleasurable experience. And I think it's because it falters on the human moments that usually stitch together the bigger, that can stitch together not just stitch together the big ideas, but also paper over some of the granular inconsistencies that truly you and I don't care about. It's that we keep feeling them or if the shape of them are bumping against them. Like the last point to make on that is probably the Morrow-Kirsch collision, which sort of upends what we thought was happening.

57:23Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I think we thought - I was like, oh, is Kirsch, is he a double agent? Is he working for Wayland? Or was luring Morrow there always the goal but also how on top of it is Kersh to the point where he is aware that a chestburster is about to come out of Arthur and he can just trap it in the open field. Yeah. It's like a Cooper Jean tackle, by the way. It seems like they are actually quite adept at containing those aliens. So that's what leads me to believe whatever damage the aliens are doing, they are aware of it and allowing it to happen because they could end it whenever they want. Those guys went in and took care of the fly in five seconds.

58:01Andy Greenwald:Can I make a pitch for what I want the last scene of the last episode to be? Sure. I would like it to be Wendy at a cafe some years in the future. And she looks at another table in the cafe and she sees the xenomorph there having lunch and he goes. I think that's a great idea. Wouldn't that be nice? You should write television. Because then the alien is enjoying the fruits of Earth. Cafe culture. That's another thing is like, don't let that fucking alien get off the island. Is that your advice? Well, because you're just going to make me so mad about, like, so Ellen Ripley just lived her whole life and, like, didn't know that aliens were in Thailand.

58:37Hmm. Well, I mean, was she well-traveled? I don't know. I'm just saying. It's like, I'm okay with him being like Prometheus and Covenant didn't happen. Right. But I hope that the aliens stick to this part of Earth. Well, I think that the point. And don't mess with, like, alien and aliens and, like, what they're about.

58:56Andy Greenwald:No, I think the point you've been making from the beginning is a good one, which is we haven't really heard about this place in the larger mythos. Sure. Or this company. Yeah. Right. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about Black Rabbit. The entire season, eight episodes dropped on Netflix last night. I believe we both watched the first two. Mm-hmm. Stars Jason Bateman and Jude Law as two middle-aged brothers in New York City. Jake is Jude Law, and Jake is a successful, if stretched thin, restaurateur. While Vince is a falling star, you could say. Scratching together, get-rich-quick schemes, and trying to stay ahead of his nefarious creditors.

59:36He's a guy in debt. And his own demons, I would say. Yeah, for sure. When Vince unexpectedly turns up in New York City on the night of Jake's restaurant, on the night that Jake's restaurant is to be reviewed by the New York Times, things start to change for both brothers. I told you old media still matters. And I, this is for what it's worth, this is written by Zach Balin and who wrote Creed 3 and Gran Turismo and The Order, which is a movie both of us liked. Yeah. And King Richard, which was nominated for an Academy Award for along with Kate Sussman, who's his creative and I believe life partner.

1:00:12The first two episodes are directed by Bateman, the ones that we're going to be talking about. There is a middle block handled by Laura Linney. Crazy. And the final two are directed by Justin Kurtzel. So a lot of talent involved.

1:00:23Andy Greenwald:Who's both an awesome director. The Long Road to the North, is that the name of the show that we watched? And The Order. Yeah. And his life and creative partner is Essie Davis, who plays Dame, what's her name? Sylvia? Yeah. Well. It's really all one big show. This crazy thing called life. You go first. Me? I'll go first. Really liked it. Okay. I really like this. I'm, uh, I, I think that this is, um, a very nostalgic show for me in terms of it being about, um, one of my favorite cities and about going out and going to restaurants and going to bars and, and, and own people money, you know, like a spotted pig after hours.

1:01:07Um, even the way it's constructed, you know, I think because Bateman directed it and because it's on Netflix and because this is his first major television work, I think since Ozark, there's going to be a lot of Ozark comparisons. Right. And I think it's slightly more, it's paced in a more stately way than Ozark was, which isn't to suggest that it's stately. It's just not the holy shit, a season's worth of stuff just happened in the first 15 minutes of Ozark. But I will hear and understand tons of criticisms of it. There's no reason for these episodes to be an hour and eight minutes long. Yeah.

1:01:44There is definitely some flab. But I think that my level of enjoyment, both for Bateman's performance, just enjoying Jude Law being like an ambitious hotshot restaurateur, and the setting, and the milieu. Milieu. Milieu. That's what happens when Duolingo just goes by the wayside. I think he directed Conan the Barbarian, by the way, John Milieu, I believe. Yeah, that's good. That's why you don't have me on that podcast anymore. You should replace me. I enjoyed the first two episodes. I enjoyed them. I got some positives for you. It's not going to be what you think it's going to be for me. Based on your text messages?

1:02:24Yeah. Well, I mean, I hate pilots, man. Pilots are tough. And I'm glad I watched. We can talk about the big sin of this pilot.

1:02:30Andy Greenwald:We can talk about that. And we will. I'm glad I kept going. It did temper some of my feelings about it. Has that ever happened before? Never. First time. But I'm still learning, you know. I think the... I wish we had Instagram for when you did your Barbie trailer rant. Don't know what you're talking about. Don't give her ideas. Yeah. We give her, there's too much free time for her to find this stuff while we're recording. There are things, there are definite things that I like about the show. First and foremost being, like, Jason Bateman's a very charming and charismatic actor. And I think it's also fun that he has, after such a long career, and, you know, a child actor, darker times, resurgence, everything like that has grabbed the reins of his creative opportunities to the degree that he not only can shepherd a project like this, get it onto Netflix, direct it, but choose the juicier, darker part for himself to give himself opportunities that maybe casting directors wouldn't.

1:03:30Andy Greenwald:I also like the New Yorkiness of it. I like, I think, as a fan of both restaurants and the New York Times restaurant reviews, this world is ripe for some sort of storytelling and there are moments when I think the show does take advantage of it, both in terms of like very, very smart, actual, smart, but legitimate observations like restaurants or nightclubs for adults, which is how Vince pitches the Black Rabbit as a concept to his brother in the flashback that starts the second episode. But also there's just - Nightclubs technically for adults as well, since you have to be a certain age to get into them, but be that as it may.

1:04:05Well, I think people who, you know, who - Age out of going to the club. In some ways, yes.

1:04:09Andy Greenwald:I think that there are moments like that take full advantage of it. Like there's a shot in the second episode where the hoodlums who are pursuing Vince say we should tell him he's not coming, talking about Vince. And they go into like a Turkish bath or a Russian bath in the Lower East Side. And the camera just follows them on this like labyrinthine route all the way down to a sub-basement, which is even more claustrophobic, into a hidden office. And that idea that you can have living in New York that the city folds in on itself and it's like an M.C. Escher picture of rooms onto rooms into stairways into stairways, each with hidden meaning and hidden access is very exciting and very compelling, even if I've never really been a Schvitz kind of guy.

1:04:45I haven't either. You ever did that in your day? Some people still swear by it, but we don't have them on the podcast, so we'll move on. All of that, I'm fine with. Yes. I think that one of the things that I found the most jarring about the pilot,

1:05:04Andy Greenwald:I don't even want to characterize it as a negative. Like, this is actually a good thing for Netflix because Netflix's business model is so savvy, or maybe its algorithm is so savvy, that this show works. I mean that like without judgment. I hear you, yeah, yeah. Like it is absolutely tailor-made to show up on the screen as an autoplay or if you like when people finish Ozark. Or bloodlines or like damages, which it kind of reminds me of like sort of like earlier century. This is what I was going to say. It is no sin to do a cover version in a very recognizable key for people because that is a proven pleasure spot.

1:05:42Andy Greenwald:And the show will deliver on that in terms of like the rising stakes and the backstabbing and the mystery inside of the mystery. All that makes sense to me. I wrote, there was something about the first 15 minutes of the show that I was like, oh, this is super pre-woke television. And what I mean by that in the same joking way that like the guy I love on Instagram, James Dimitri, who like reviews greasy spoon fry-ups in London. and if they serve any bread that's not like buttered white toast, he calls it woke toast. This is what I meant in the sense that the show starts with a man looking in a mirror like cleansing himself before putting it on for a crowd and everyone's sexy and there's violence, there's guns, and then something goes crazy and then it stops and says, one month earlier.

1:06:25Yes. And I said, no, no. As it was beginning, I was like, this is a good fucking show. Exactly. I was like, oh, it's playing the Walkman and it's doing something really radical, starting us in the shit. Why wouldn't a show do this?

1:06:37Andy Greenwald:And then it did the thing that I think even, I think finally now development executives are hitting pause on. Like this has gone too far. If they had just started the show with Jude Law peeling himself off the cot in the back of the Black Rabbit and tonight's the big night, all of that information is conveyed beautifully. I agree. Obviously you are given this insight into A, a crime is going to be committed at a certain point, probably many of them, and B, someone is going to get shot, but also that you can see that the restaurant has reached an even higher echelon of success than it had previous, you know, after this New York Times review that's sort of like the culmination of the first episode.

1:07:18But they just take the gas. They just deflate the balloon with going back a month. It just started the month earlier. Like, nobody needs the gunshot to be like, I guess I'll keep watching Jason Bateman and Jude Law run around New York City. I hope if any development executives do listen to this podcast, please take that note from us. Like it is absolutely, I've been in those meetings. I've gotten those notes that in the attention economy that we have, we have to start with the most fraught moment possible.

1:07:46Andy Greenwald:But then if the most fraught moment possible for your show, timeline wise occurs one week later, three months into your story and you have all this throat clearing to do, maybe reconsider the show. Yeah. maybe just start where the story starts or where the story ought to start and see how it flows from there um broadly speaking i found the word that i wrote and again this is not a criticism of the entertainment engagement of it because when i watched the second episode i was like i could 100 see myself just binging this on a flight there's nothing wrong with it these are good actors it's you know it's high production values and it's loosely in a world that i'm interested in interested in that drops enough like okay Danny Meyer or like oh mixed use and Murray Hill and I'm like oh yes go on like I I I I get that yeah that is appealing but regardless I did write down that I found this like phony baloney in the sense that like um it you know it is it is humorless it is it indicates everything I think Bateman can be funny in this Bateman is a charming and funny performer but my main takeaway I was like why why am I finding this like very like determinative and like heavy and, you know, serious in a way that I found oppressive as opposed to Task, which I love, which, you know, DJ Grasanova aside is also darkly lit.

1:09:05Andy Greenwald:As dudes praying and being like, my family is broken. Yeah. And I have to say, like, these are apples and oranges, so it might not be fair to compare them, although they are both fruit, that I have the sense when I watch Task that Brad Inglesby, who created it, has been in these kitchens. He has been in these rooms. He has wrestled with some religious morality struggles in his life. And there is a patina of authenticity to it. Sure. You know, inside of these rooms. When I watched the first two episodes of Black Rabbit, I felt that there was a lot of authenticity into the movies Jason Bateman and everyone else had watched to make the show.

1:09:43Andy Greenwald:Like Jude Law in this, I love Jude Law as an actor. And I don't begrudge Jude Law wanting to be in some version of Michael Clayton and Mean Streets. I don't know if I buy him doing that, but I respect his right to be the guy in those movies. And it's just a framing thing of, you know, do you, when they go to their late mother's house and they're like, we have to sell this or whatever, it looks beautiful. It's lit beautifully. It looks like it has good bones, you know, which I think is inaccurate to what the house does in the story. But the aesthetics of the shot matter more in that moment than the storytelling.

1:10:19That's interesting. I didn't mind that scene. I think that it's a good scene brothers are good in the scene I think you're touching on something where it's like the authenticity thing is really interesting and whether or not you're imitating the art that you love rather than the life you want to depict I find the two brothers one who's spiraling out quite publicly in all of the ways that you would normally say like this guy is in trouble he owes money he doesn't have a phone he doesn't have any cash he's you know basically got a scarf fast food wherever he can to get a meal um he has some sick layers though and i know that honestly probably could put that sonic youth t-shirt on um on depop and do quite well for himself black denim jacket but jude law who is by all you know like all hallmarks of success is a successful person is also like i have crisis after crisis after crisis yep and And has confusing, you know, perhaps other like crimes that we are not quite clear on because in the first two episodes, there is this whole thing with the bartender who refuses to come back to work.

1:11:27Andy Greenwald:It seems like we are. I mean, I made a joke, probably I shouldn't have, like to misbehavior in bad behavior, rapacious, actually criminal behavior in the restaurant world over the last 10 years. Don't know. I haven't watched past two episodes. It seems intentional that there are some spotted pig. Black Rabbit seems a lot like Spotted Pig which was the hot spot where celebrities and musicians both invested in and partied and then it was revealed sometime later that the restaurant or behind it was up to no good. Yeah, and like the Spotted Pig I think that one of the cool things that they've done with Black Rabbit is like there's always another room that you can't get into, you know?

1:12:06Yes. Like Spotted Pig had like these tiered kind of like private dining rooms upon private dining rooms and it was like to your point about the mc escher quality of it like you'd go into this thing and then it would just be like well i'm here i can't get that level and then even the person in that

1:12:22Andy Greenwald:level can't get upstairs i can eat this burger here and you know sadly take a picture of it on my iphone 6 is upstairs right now but i don't even know where the stairs are yeah yes yeah i think it gets a lot of that right i think so basically what i think is like it maybe is more truthful than it is authentic. Like, I like the way the characters are pit against one another but also have affection for each other. I read an interview with Bateman and Law where they were talking about, like, the durability of brothers and family as, like, a dramatic structure because it's like you can break up marriages, you can break up friendships, but ultimately family, you're always connected, whether it's through your dead mother or whatever it is.

1:13:01Like, you've got, like, this connective tissue. And when the second episode began, and it was yet another flashback. The first episode starts with a flash forward. The second episode starts with a flashback. I was like, this is cool. We're going to get a little bit more. And I thought that flashback in the second episode actually was like, this is neat. You can see an earlier version of Bateman. You can see two guys who think they're basically at the same kind of point in their lives. One's going to go down, one's going to go up. Why did that happen?

1:13:29Andy Greenwald:And then there's the music video of them in a early 2000s, I guess. Cold War Kids kind of band? Longwave vibes. Yeah, yeah. You know, like kind of like Post Strokes, New Rock, whatever. But they actually make the video, which was a bold choice. And now, sadly, because it means we're old, that era is as far away from our current moment than as CBGB's was for when we were living in New York at first. Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So us talking about this is kind of like old us, like people older than us talking about Spike Lee's Summer of Sam when it came out. And I was like, whoa, look at Adrian Brody's hair.

1:14:12Andy Greenwald:That's crazy. That was like 20 years before the movie came out. That's fun to think about. Thank you. Will you keep watching? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I was all the way out at the beginning, but then when it settled into what it is, which it does sound like I'm actually in debt to Troy Kutzer from CODA when I say this. I'm not. I see the shape of it, and there's no shame in being a very high-class version of a type of crime show. There's enough on the margins that kind of make it compelling. Is there a writer's room term for the need to put a mystery or something to solve on top of what would just be like a character drama?

1:14:57There's not even a term for it. It's just the industry now. Like you need to have like who's robbing the black rabbit. Yes. As like, okay, like we get piecemeal stories.

1:15:07Andy Greenwald:What are we? It used to be, I think, how do we get people to watch the next episode? And now it's how do we get people not to turn away? and you have to front load everything. I mean, this is true. Look, this is the same sensibility that Kaya brings to our Instagram page. Day after day. What's sticky? You know what I mean? Like, how can we really drive the conversation? Clickbait. So I get that. I just wish that there was a structure where there was more to sink into. Yeah, I just, I mean, I... But it's relatively big stars. it's a limited series intentionally Zach Balin is a film writer and you know TV can be a different animal it doesn't need to be there's opportunity for it to be and it's fine to deliver something that's straight down the middle that doesn't surprise but there's an element when I watch the show that might keep me from watching it more where it's like when Vince goes back I don't know if he's in Queens or Brooklyn and he goes to the bar that like it's the one place that doesn't sell $50 fucking hamburgers anymore and the guy who's the bartender there is that guy.

1:16:14Andy Greenwald:They're like, who's the actor? He was in Ozark, yeah. He's in everything being that guy and God bless him. He should work. He's our next Peter Garrity. I love him. But like there's a moment when it's like you could surprise but instead you comfort. The Troy Kotzert part where the criminal mastermind is deaf, like that's a surprise moment. Yeah. And aesthetically it's like, it's cool. That came out of nowhere and I leaned in. Chris Coy who's one of the guys one of the hoods yeah I'm just just Cheryl over here Chris Coy plays one of the the that could be a new way of us recapping episodes is like at that point I leaned out but then I leaned in you know when Grasanova came in for what it's worth I watch television from a rocking chair so it's a constant back and forth Chris Coy who plays one of the toughs who's standing behind the guy who's the son of Troy Kotzer did a lot of scenes with Tom Pelfrey in Banshee a show I still think you should check out.

1:17:08Andy Greenwald:I will. They had a big confrontation. Okay. It was very good. Did they, it was like a huge fight? That's, yes, I leaned in to that confrontation which is to say I thought that was pretty sick. Last thing on Black Rabbit. We don't know how brothers are to each other. We're as close as we're going to get. Probably. What, is there ever a world in which I would emerge from arrivals blinking into the New York sunlight and you're just waiting for me? We've had no text messages. What airport is that? That's what I mean. Is that LaGuardia? Is that what it's like there now? I, My thing was more like...

1:17:39Where do they let you wait at all? Well, if you have a Jaguar, vintage Jag, like Julie. It's not just that. It's like, you remember the Seinfeld thing? Like, I'm not driving you to the airport. Like, this goes beyond driving someone to the airport. This is sending a ticket into the ether, assuming someone got on the plane because that person doesn't have a phone. And then picking them up. Just waiting until they emerge. Yeah. We don't know what kind of airport arrival Vince is. Maybe he needs to go to the bathroom. Maybe he checked a bag. Sure. Skis. He could be an oversized luggage. He came from Reno.

1:18:10There are ski trails up there. It's Tahoe Ajace. That's what I'm saying. Like, that was... You ask the right questions, man. You always do. Which was more plausible? Jude Law doing that for his brother, sight unseen at an airport, or Jude Law's entire family being big Nets fans? That is fucking hilarious, but I think accurate to new money in New York. I agree. I think that that was a knowing thing when he's like, because who loves the Nets? And I think the internal joke is no one, but everyone who lives kind of park slope adjacent, who's just like, I don't know what to do with these kids. My company has Nets tickets.

1:18:43Let's go. Don't you love our team featuring Michael Porter Jr.? Michael. Everybody's a podcaster. Thanks for joining me today. Did I have an op? What do you mean joining you? Thanks to Kai. Who's coming on second hour? My guest, Brendan Carr. There it is. Is joining me. thanks so much for joining we'll be back on Monday to talk about Task maybe some more Black Rabbit Lowdown is coming Slow Horses is coming back there's a lot of really good TV on right now

1:19:14Andy Greenwald:I think all that's coming next week so we better get on it there's a crazy like Thursday is essentially D-Day for us not literally we're not we don't know we don't know timestamp it we don't know but good luck everyone

1:19:34This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods. It's hot out there, folks. Whether you're planning a family road trip, backyard barbecues, or a watch party, you'll find everything you need to beat the heat with the quality you expect from Whole Foods Market. Find sales on best of summer fruit, stock up on cooler-friendly drinks, and discover no antibiotics ever meets for the grill. You know, something like a New York strip steak, plus made in-house kebabs, skewers, and sausages. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online. Get your first delivery free with Prime. Terms apply. Athletic Brewing Company crafts award-winning non-alcoholic beers for those who want to be part of every round.

1:20:13With over 185 flavor awards, they're exceptional NA beers that fit your lifestyle and any social occasion. Summer's full of good times and athletic fits right in. Go to athleticbrewing.com to have brews delivered to your door or find them at a bar, restaurant, or store near you. Near Beer, athletic brewing company, fit for all times.