‘Alien: Earth’ Failed Itself. Plus, Ethan Hawke and Sterlin Harjo on ‘The Lowdown,’ and ‘Slow Horses’ Is Back!

24:23And I don't know whether that's like the strikes, the cost of making this, whether or not they had Timothy Oliphant for as much time as they needed him if they wanted to do certain things. He seemed to bail. Yeah, I mean, I have no idea, but I wonder if there's a better 10 episode season of this. And I also think that one of the reasons why you and I are so on edge about watching some of this stuff and we keep saying things like the lock and her powers which have yet to be discussed until the end of being that massive. I mean, I know she's able to communicate with Hermit in the beginning of the season.

25:02But that would suggest that she already can do that And why would you then let her roam free without an off switch? Yes. Right? We got an email a couple weeks ago from someone named Alan, which was very good because I think he picks at something that probably for a solid chunk of our listeners is the case, which is basically we've gotten Andor pilled. And that ages ago, Tony Gilroy came onto the watch to talk to y 'all about the Narkina 5 arc of Andor Season 1. Season 1, yeah. Tony talked about the writer's room and Luke Hall spending a lot of time figuring out how a space prison would work. Like if the prison had no bars, what would keep the prisoners trapped?

25:42Oh, the floor is electrified. That would mean the prisoners would be barefoot. Shout out, Boy Cavalier. How do you prevent the guards from being shocked? They'd have to wear these heavy boot things and so on and so on and so on. But all that detail about the architecture and functions of the prison dictated the movement of the story. Would alien Earth have benefited from that kind of planning?

26:02Andy Greenwald:I think it's a great, great question. It's a great point. A couple things in what you were saying. One is... Thanks for the email, Alan. I think... And thank you for the dramatic reading of it. I think... I love when you read emails on the show. It gives me time to... Do you actually? Well, they're great emails. Gives me time to check mine. No, the... Another fundraiser from Vice President Ryan? Who's running for attorney general in New Mexico again? Wait, it's Chris? a couple things about this I think it's a very fair question to ask if due to budget reasons or production reasons the episode order was trimmed there's a moment in this episode when I believe it's Adam basically narrates what's going on on the island that does feel like a lot of yada yada yada yeah Yutani is on her way with her ships and a lot of like dreamy footage that definitely of scenes not all of which were shot to be part of the montage of someone narrating that's just very clear artfully done but like you can get that you can get that sense um so there might have been more story left on it i i on on the on the bone i think that it's important when we talk about shows like this to always contextualize it by saying it's not as if all television shows in 2025 start from the same place in terms of budget in terms of priorities in terms of producers um executives networks, hopes, dreams, creators, etc.

27:29Andy Greenwald:What Andor did is a miracle for any number of reasons. The number one reason being it is exceptional television, like some of the best maybe ever made when we look back on this. It is also not repeatable, not just repeatable, not unrepeatable because, you know, margins have changed and Disney isn't investing in Star Wars that doesn't involve puppets as much anymore. It's not repeatable because it is a unique chemistry, not just of Tony Gilroy and material, but Tony Gilroy and Kathy Kennedy in charge of Disney at a moment of transition at Disney. I'd be like, we need hours of TV for Disney Plus.

28:04And him saying, I can deliver it.

28:05Andy Greenwald:And him saying, okay, great. I'm going to hole up in my brownstone with my brother and Bo Williman and Tom Bissell. And we are going to spare no expense. And we are going to operate on the highest possible level at all times. Everybody sets out to do that, but it's not always possible. um no by contrast works differently thinks differently has different aims and goals but also the aims and goals of fox of fx john landgraf of the nature of like having a room and then shooting in thailand like all of this goes into it so i i don't want to pull them up next to each other and say you know one is better than the other but i think that the larger takeaway from the email that i definitely agree with is the standard has been raised and i think that what we're bumping on is a the difference between a show that is dedicated to show to giving us a complete thought both um narratively but also thematically politically visually artistically which is andor and a show that is a maybe an an imperfect vessel for what motivates the creators yeah right and i am never going to come on this podcast uh and say oh i wish creators had less opportunity to express their innermost hopes, dreams, and passions.

29:22Andy Greenwald:But this feels a little bit at the end of these episodes like an ill-fitting garment for some of them. I wonder whether or not also there was something about this story that he felt like he needed to tell to get to the next one. Which is a tough beat for contemporary television. But this is also a creator who has worked in a somewhat anthologized fashion in the past. Other than Legion, he has. And I would not be shocked if... Now, he has said in his interviews, he was like, but it is a very interesting situation because even though Wendy is like, we rule now, all these ships are coming, you know?

29:59Andy Greenwald:Also, what does she rule over? Those people in the prison? Humanity. I think it's kind of like, we don't work for you. You know, we're not showroom models. We are, you know, you're the showroom models. Is that what the new skinny iPhone is going to say? that's why I'm not I'm not updating to that new OS with the bubbles like that's no thank you are you do you think that there's any promise for future seasons in terms of like creatively like your interest level yeah I mean I think the constant I don't know if that's a good question no but I think the constant of the constant of our conversations over the last eight weeks have been I think I think incredibly impressed by some structural decision making and some just idea generating that is at the root here.

30:52Andy Greenwald:And then some frustration with the sort of the straitjacket of the first season problem. you know like I and then maybe beyond that what we're starting to tease at today is like maybe there's a cool show about um AI and humanity and hybrid machine robot baby people but is that an alien show do we want aliens in it I mean the alien ultimately are the least interesting thing you know I think about this show don't you think in how they are deployed I oh I mean I think that The Alien is the show. I mean, if you just were like, it's about AI and synthetic people and immortality and Peter Pan, I would just be like, I'm not that interested in that.

31:34Andy Greenwald:I'm not that interested in it in a vacuum. But if you tell me, every other detail about this is the same in the sense that there is... The coolest shots in this episode are still like the alien, you know, dissolve against the sun, you know, on a mountaintop somewhere on this island screaming into the night, into the void, you know? Like, that's cool to me. like that. That's your platform. Single issue candidate. I'm interested in the stuff that I, I think I'm interested in a lot of the things that Noah's interested in. I think xenomorphs are the best part of this show. They're Americans too. I think the, the world run by five cutthroat corporations with a blurring line between what is human and what is machine and a guy basically being like, I've invented immortality, but I'm really just mostly compelled by the works of J.M.

32:27Andy Greenwald:Barrie and so I'm making sure that this follows like the deep Peter Pan cuts. The moment when they're in prison No, it's Jane. When Wendy's like, actually Wendy was the most popular and then, but Peter got mad later when she grew up until he came and kidnapped her daughter. I'm like, it's like explaining the plot of Jurassic World 3 to me. Yes. Let's stay focused here. We get the bit. Although I was impressed that in the finale, Wendy's, you know, self-upgrade finally allowed her to stop saying the boy genius. She said boy K. I was like, let's go with that. But all I'm saying is I actually found the most interesting template for a longer running Noah Hawley series to be the things that I think he was more interested in.

33:11Andy Greenwald:And by the end, when Boy Cavalier is like, you know, all my toys are here and these aliens are just toys to him and there's still the sense that everybody just wants it but why do they want them? They seem like a lot of hassle. And I don't think that Safety Glass has iterated enough to really allow us to fully explore having these things. They stopped developing Safety Glass at the movie Ice Age and its release. I think that's absolutely true. They don't, on a fundamental level, and maybe this is, a few weeks ago you were talking about how in some interviews it seemed like Noah was saying, yeah, these people are stupid.

33:50Andy Greenwald:You know, I'm paraphrasing. but at a certain point the characters on the show are not serious people about what they're messing with and what they're doing and it's hard for me to take it serious the challenge of the voice character is that it's kind of like making a piece of art about someone who's a great writer and not showing the writing or something about a musician who writes the greatest song of all time this guy is a genius multi-trillionaire and seems like kind of an idiot now you could say oh I can think of some examples in our current setup where that's the case as well. Yeah. But there's really no evidence to suggest that this guy would even be trusted by anybody, you know, to do any of this stuff.

34:32The last thing I'll just leave us with is the fact that still, these aliens have not gotten off that island. So you could still like theoretically throw a blanket on top of it and be like aliens have never been to Earth or nobody else knows about this and nobody else is like, hmm, xenomorphs. I do think that he's going to have to reckon with some kind of canon if he makes another season. And he's indicated that he'll have to start considering that more heavily. But I think my first red light or my first alarm was when it was kind of like, oh yeah, Prometheus and Covenant, that doesn't matter in this world.

35:08Or that's alternative fiction. I admire the creative chutzpah, but it's like, well then what are we watching then, right?

35:17Andy Greenwald:Is that the first time you've used Yiddish on this podcast? Shana Tova, my brother. That was a dog whistle for this dog. The High Hollies, man. As our resident alienologist, can you comment? Don't put that on me. I like it. Are you running under Andrew Yang's no labels party? No, I just don't want LV426 to get mad at me. Go ahead. It's not about specifics. It's more about the traditional vibe of these stories. is that they are more or less haunted house stories in space where everybody dies. Sure. Except, you know, there's always one survivor or a Ripley or whatever. This did invert that. Maginot did the alien movie.

35:59Yeah. One survivor. And then this was a different thing. But it is.

36:02Andy Greenwald:Everyone of note, other than poor Isaac, Rest in Power King, everybody else survived. Mm-hmm. Did that throw you? Yes. That threw me a lot. It threw me a lot. Yeah. Not only because I just want to see aliens get after it, it threw me a lot because I like watching things where the consequences and stakes that are obvious are actually followed through. And that's why I was like, put the eyeball on Hermit. I would love to see Alex Lothar be Frankenstein's monster. Let's see what happens when this happens. I will say that the development process is so glacial often in television. that there are things that are, I think, broadly accepted not just by the viewing public or by podcasters, but I think within development meetings and sales pitches and things that the industry has moved on from or has finally understood and taken and learned from.

37:00Andy Greenwald:One of those is you can't start a pilot with the most exciting thing and then say one month earlier. Black Rabbit was written and developed before this seemed to really sink into the consciousness, so Black Rabbit did it. the other one that I think one of the lessons from this past year so Alien could not have caught up to it in its development process is I no longer think that you are playing with house money when you are developing and spending on a massive IP known IP franchise show and you cannot spend as burn a season clearing your throat right this season did not just clear its throat the Maginot stuff the world building I'm not the skyscraper I'm not trying to dismiss it it went for it in ways that I think were very smart and met the moment but broadly speaking there there were house of dragon vibes to the sense that like don't worry we'll get to the good stuff in the larger story yeah i think you're right i think that there's something to that in the last of us season two ratings kind of proved that like you cannot bank on it you cannot count on that same level of excitement engagement coming back with you ratings wise again that's not that's not quality that's not a quality comment the ratings were down um so i think that big stuff that's being developed now will have to go in with that mindset.

38:11Andy Greenwald:Either we make it every year or we tell the biggest possible story every year. Yeah, it's three years from now. We do Alien Earth part season two and it's about something completely different. And maybe Kirsch is in it or whatever, but like we've kind of changed the game board. The same way he does with Fargo. I would also say, and again, the shows that are on television at the same time are not in competition with each other. It's not really fair to do it. But they are, because of the nature of a podcast, they are in conversation with each other. And one of the things that I was excited to talk about on task episode three, when we talked on Monday, was how Brad Inglesby is incredibly adept at giving characters their ISO hero ball introductory expository speech in ways that even if it's not natural, flows and draws your attention and draws you deeper into the story and the world.

39:03Andy Greenwald:I thought this episode did not succeed to that level. When you have moments like Morrow and Kirsch are fighting to the death and Mauro suddenly starts talking about John Henry. Yeah. The pop culture thing is maddening to me. I mean, I think, again, that is an interesting analogy. It is relevant. It's a good story to tell. I don't know if that was the moment for it. And similarly, like Boy Cavalier, like walking into a room full of murderous hybrid baby robots and being like, let me tell you about my father. Read the room. I know you own the room and probably built the room and everything. Or just say that from outside of the gate.

39:39You know, even though when she opens the gate, that's probably a bad sign that like, but you're going to get trapped in there.

39:45Andy Greenwald:Or maybe he's so smart because he understands that there really are no walls between any of us. That's right, man. At any time. He clearly does not believe in security protocols. That's my campaign slogan. There are no walls. That's beautiful. This episode is brought to you by NOS Energy. Every ounce of dirt, sweat, and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard-bought place. they're all jammed inside every can of NOS Energy. High performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets. Go ahead, crack open a can of NOS Energy and get after it.

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41:32Play as any of the 48 teams in 16 real-world stadiums, and it's included in your membership. Yeah. Go to the Games tab on your TV and play FIFA World Cup Launch Edition now. Only on Netflix. Let's talk a little bit about the first episode of Slow Horses, Season 5. We still have this lowdown thing to get to, so we can keep this brief enough because this is a setup episode for the most part. I found it to be the most viscerally kind of... electrifying and almost confrontational of those slow horses. Here's the bomb. Here's the moment that puts the case in motion. I love this season. You've watched ahead.

42:15I have watched ahead and I will not be spoiling anything or talking about anything and I love this season because it puts the thriller back in spy thriller. I think that obviously they're following along with Mick Heron's books. This one is based on London rules. As people may have read this one is a Roddy centric season

42:33Andy Greenwald:as his PR reps have clearly like there's a big profile in the times this guy's front and center and I think what I loved about this was where the fourth season felt a little bit like there's the Jack Loudon season happening over here and then there is the these two are running around over here Shirley and Marcus maybe are doing stuff it feels like the band is coming back together and exploring the studio space finding out what they sound like live. And it just feels like the propulsion is back in this show. And I don't really need this series to be myth-making and to be like, what's the bigger story about River?

43:17What is his... It's like River's trapped. All these people are trapped. They also all can't admit that they prefer living in Jackson's world rather than the bullshit world of the park or wherever or outside. But tell me what you thought of the first episode.

43:33Andy Greenwald:I love the show. I love that it's in our lives every year. It's a gift. I was pleased to learn that it was based on the McHara novel London Rules, not the text I was sending you between September and March, where I said London Rules. I, you know, look, the beauty and the brilliance and the stability of the show is that it has these books. The risk you run is that But if there's a book that is, I mean, I haven't read them, so I don't know if Spook Street was an off book, you know, or maybe not as strong as the others. But you are basically, you've made the decision to follow the tracks that were laid by the writer.

44:09Andy Greenwald:And I loved watching season four. I'm never going to take it for granted that we have it. But the things about the show that I am not particularly interested in include River being an action hero in a separate television show. River's origin story. River's Oedipal relationship with his mean supervillain dad. Right. I don't really care. Like, that's kind of tangential stuff that makes it like a slow horse's, you know, expanded universe. And, like, I don't watch it that way. And it's fun and cool for people who do or might hit different when you're reading a book. And, you know, characters maybe bubble up and then disappear again and come back.

44:49Andy Greenwald:This does feel like, I think what I picked up on that you were responding to is that this season immediately starts off with a series of horrifying bangs. But you're immediately back in the tensions that made the show worthwhile to begin with. Of this misfit, this collection of misfit toys slash found family hate each other and are trapped with each other and yet somehow keep showing up for each other. I think it also makes a difference that Saul Metstein, who directed season three, which was excellent, is back to direct this season. Yes. And maybe there's also a little extra, a little, you know, gas in his engine, because this is Will Smith, who has won Emmys and has been the showrunner and main adapter of the series since season one.

45:28Andy Greenwald:This is his swan song. He's stepping back from the day-to-day showrunning after this season. They're also back on home field. So being back in London, starting the season with, and we'll spoil the first episode going forward, the first sequence is essentially a mass shooting at a campaign stump promotional. Not even. It's just like that guy has a table in what appears to be like a council flat. And he's trying to register people and get them to vote for the Sadiq Khan stand-in that Nick Muhammad is playing. Who is the current mayor in the world of Slow Horses. Yes. He's the incumbent. And he is running against a populist demagogue, vaguely Nigel Farage-ish character.

46:13um soul horses has done a really nice job of like talking about the nuances between the conservative side of the british sort of political spectrum and their relationship to the more like national front racist you know i mean i heard that is sharia law there now i'm very interested i'll report back soon um and so yeah i think that it starts out with this mass shooting that takes place there there's immediately like questions about what we know as viewers versus what cops and agents are trying to catch up with.

46:45Andy Greenwald:And by the way, kudos to the production and to Saul Metstein and Will Smith. Like, the show is very propulsive and very funny all the time. That opening was horrifying. Yeah, awful. It was, I thought it was brilliantly, I don't want to say shot or executed, but it was brilliantly, they pulled it off brilliantly. But I liked it because I think most Slow Horses seasons start with a bomb goes off way down over there or there's a murder and then it kind of spirals out from there. But I feel like the show needed something like that to kind of say like, hey, we know it's season five, but pay attention.

47:20Andy Greenwald:Yeah, and I just thought that the framing of it, there was the most horrifying aspect of it was the silence that they lingered in. That usually it's like a knee-jerk thing that anytime there is any kind of act of violence on television or movies, if you leave the scene, you hear the sirens. You hear the approach, you hear a scream. There's a sense that it's almost like letting the audience know, don't worry, society is here to pick up the pieces of the guardrails exist. And I really appreciated that it was just this horrifying funereal silence. Yeah. And then it kind of snowballs from there. You know, there's an attempt on Roddy's life.

47:54Surely, maybe surely is obsessed with the idea that it was.

47:58Andy Greenwald:It's a white van, by the way, which is what Ethan Hawke drives in The Lowdown. That's true. And, you know, there's a lot of tension arriving from the internal kind of allegiances, but also dreams and nightmares of the members of Sly House, specifically Louisa leaves Sly House. And River is obviously like, I'm kind of the last, I'm holding the bag here. Like, I'm close to becoming one of those people that just spends the rest of his career here. and what's that going to mean for me when I think I have like a higher purpose and I think I'm like the number one draft pick of all spies. Jackson is still Jackson, farting, drinking.

48:37Andy Greenwald:I mean, his, can you imagine his Grub Street diet? Oh my God. It's just like garlic noodles. He starts with a full English. Some of it ends up on his tie. He then, oh man, I meant to, the Tesco Caterpillar, who has a name, someone's going to email me about this, including my friends in England, What's the Tesco Caterpillar? So he takes, they go to Tesco to get the supplies for the going away party. Oh, yeah. And one of the things that they get is a cake of this character. Oh, yeah. And there's gummies, and I've got them for my... Slinky or fuzzy? Thank you. Colin. No, it's Colin. Colin. Colin the Caterpillar.

49:14Andy Greenwald:Thank you. It's like a Carvel thing? London rules. Yes, we would think of it. I used the same analogy, then I had to explain Fudgy the Whale, and everybody was like, it's time for you to fly home now. Did you have Carvel out on the West Coast growing up? what is that? It's an ice cream chain, but they make ice cream cakes usually in like these proprietary cartoon characters. No, we had like Baskin-Robbins. Wait, I'm going to get... Kaya, you were right. Colin is the Marks and Spencer version of it. The classier version of the classic Slinky. And what does Tesco sell? Slinky. Okay. So Jackson then takes the Slinky cake and a bottle of whiskey and almost dies smoking a cigarette.

49:55Andy Greenwald:He doesn't clearly know about Zins yet. That might be season six. And then after polishing off the cake, I believe, switches to garlic noodles and shrimp chips before exiting the office. It is a legendary run by my guy. It's firing on all cylinders. Like if anybody who listens to the show wants to write for television, an ongoing television, I would just watch this episode as a primer on the possibilities of ongoing series and what you can do. Because it's so deeply rooted in character. in the way that like the best sitcoms are, where everyone knows the role they play. And in the same way that like a classical music composer might know which section of the orchestra to use and how to have them interact, the scene of the going away party, everyone is playing their role and like the ball movement is elite.

50:44Andy Greenwald:And like, and then the subtle gradations that you get only in the fifth season of a show where Shirley is like, correct, that something has happened to Roddy. And everyone's reaction to it is both A, in keeping with who they are, B, has ulterior motives, as Jackson says that he does. Yes. But C, you also see where River is in his journey towards being more like his grandfather, more like his father, or more like Jackson. Right. And that he's pretty dismissive of it, too. Yeah. It's just a masterclass on how to manage a large ensemble. They also do a really good job of, in this season, I will say, like, finding new pairings and mixing it up.

51:22And that's my favorite thing when you have a long-running show. like this is like shuffling the deck a little bit and being like, what if these two hung out for a while? And what if these two had to do something?

51:29Andy Greenwald:What do they have to say to each other? Yeah, exactly. So Louise's face when river plants one on her. Great. Great stuff. Just looking, looking over the Thames. Would you like to comment on that? Like just politically where you'd like this relationship to go? Will they or won't they? Who can say? Because you know what's good. I'm just going to throw a little curveball to you before we go to our interview that we've been teasing for 40 plus minutes. But like, but Zoran went back to the New York Times editorial board and they were trying to gotcha him and he was like nope they were like would you apologize to the nypd and he said yes and then they were like oh what subway seat would you like to sit in sir do any takes yeah it's kind of amazing if you just this this is my that's my platform i just speak my truth uh let's get into that lowdown interview so this was uh recorded on monday night uh and i was myself and ethan hawk and sterling harjo it was really cool a bunch of the cast of the lowdown was in the audience so it It was really cool to see them interacting with Ethan and Sterling while they were on stage.

52:28They told some great stories. And it was really awesome. I think I understood these guys like working together, but these guys are like creative brothers. And it's really cool to see someone of a different generation like Ethan Hawke just be like, now you are my guy. Like, let's make stuff together.

52:48Andy Greenwald:It's one thing Ethan Hawke is notorious for. He doesn't like making stuff. He doesn't. it was a really cool chat thanks to everybody who came out and we will be back on Monday with another one of these where we have a panel talk but this time with the cast and creators behind behind task Kaya will you be there I will Eastside Kaya that's right that's wild wow I know see the culture we've got venturing over to Eagle Rock on a Sunday traffic will be fine it's true on a Sunday yeah Greenwall great to see you see you on Monday My name is Chris Ryan. You are here for a special live taping of The Watch, minus Andy Greenwald.

53:28He apologizes, but I do have some special guests to introduce. So without further ado, let me bring out the creator and star of The Lowdown, Sterling Arjo and Ethan Hawke.

53:56I like that. Guys, thank you so much for doing this with me. I'm so glad everybody just got to watch the first episode. I talked about it a little bit earlier today when I was recording an episode of the pod with Andy. And we were marveling at the fact that a lot of the show seemed to be like almost pulled from our minds and like tapped into just so many of the things that we are interested in. I think you can really feel that this is something that you guys actually wanted to see on screen. So I wanted to know if we could just go through, take me through Genesis, take me through how this project came together.

54:33Yeah. I mean, it's funny because Ethan and I had met before Reservation Dogs. We started writing a project together and we just kind of became friends and like good friends. And we'd share music together and we'd talk, we'd talk literature and blah, blah, blah. and you know and then he was in res dogs and he i think ethan thought he was going to be like say i'll be a cameo or something you know i thought it was going to be a cashier attendant or something but you know as soon as ethan hawk said he's going to be in the show i was like well let me go and write you the like the biggest role of one episode you know and so he became a lord annan's dad and um came down we filmed it was a great time and that was kind of like Like, you know, we knew, I knew after that, I wanted to work on something like whether it's a film or whatever, like we needed to do something cause we just gelled.

55:24Um, and then, you know, I was kind of like thinking about what to do after res dogs. And there's this old script that I had had. It was actually a feature to begin with. And it was just like the first 20 pages. And I had written the first 20 pages, like 15 times. And a friend of mine inspired the character Lee's name is Leroy Chapman. he's a journalist that I worked with this place called this land press. I literally set wrote around with him in a white van and he told stories about undercut sort of underground stories of Tulsa. And we made this video called Tulsa public secrets. He passed away and I just was inspired to write this character.

56:05And it wasn't meant to be like a bio, but like a inspired by sort of the spirit of him. Cause he was also like, He was a journalist and he was sort of a thorn in the side to the establishment, you know, and he had a lot to do with like kind of helping the Tulsa race massacre like that come out, which had been covered up in Tulsa, not talked about. And so, you know, through the work of this land, we did a lot of work about truth. And anyway, so I started thinking about what would I do next after Reservation Dogs? And I was like, I'll turn this story into a pilot. I rewrote it, wrote it as a pilot, sent it to him under the guise that I wanted notes.

56:41And you could tell the rest of that. Well, it was a really old school trick is what it was. Because we had been writing together before ResDog started. So it kind of made sense. He's like, hey, thinking about submitting the script. Is this ready to go out? What do you make out of this? You got any notes? Does it work? And I was like, sure, sure. So I open it up and I read about this character who owns a bookstore. I'm like, this is me. like why is he not offering me this movie i forgot to mention i did sort of an like a like when i was writing this character and rewriting some of what i already had i did a sort of ethan hawk pass because i'd written for him already and knew him at this point and and i literally text him like script's fun but i should be in this and um and stone just showed back yeah i can fix that i was like tell me a little bit about the specific nature of your collaboration because as you mentioned, like at looking, possibly trolling him for notes.

57:42But like as the show starts to come together and as you start to map it out, Ethan, were you working with the writers? Was it more of a kind of I'm on set kind of as a creative figurehead for the show? How did that work? It's a little mysterious. I really trust Sterling. And this is Sterling's dream. This is his city. This is inspired by people and a world that he knows extremely intimately. I felt immediately when I read this first 60 pages that I understood this guy. I never thought twice about it. I wanted to play that character really badly. And so we have a great, it almost feels like being in a band together where we would talk about ideas.

58:35We would talk about fatherhood. We would talk about what journalism means. We'd talk about Hunter S. Thompson. We'd geek out about different Jim Thompson, different things that we thought the show should feel like. And I really trusted him to lead. Once the show gets greenlit, you know, you've got a couple months to write a novel. and, and he doesn't need to be checking in with me constantly or having too many cooks in the kitchen. But I also felt that he really trusted me so that I would read drafts and be like, Hey, wouldn't it be cool if I did this? And you'd be like, yeah, that'd be cool. Or that wouldn't be cool.

59:10Or this, and we found a vocabulary that was Lee together. And, um, it was extremely rewarding and interesting to go. I had an incredible supporting cast every day that I would wake up. All sitting on that row right there. Raise your hand. Stand up. Stand up real quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like.

59:42I had these amazing people that would give me energy and it was, I think, part of my. We're like a troop. We were a traveling troop trying to make this dream come true. And I never felt like Sterling didn't want to hear my ideas. Never. And I knew I was safe. He's very fun to work with. It's hard to say it with you sitting right here. It's okay. It's okay. It's a little, he was asking me to jump off the high dive and he was asking everybody to jump off the high dive. and he wasn't sure how we were going to land, but he knew we were going to by hook or by crook. We wouldn't finish until we did.

1:00:25And if I ever thought something was wrong or some other cast member, someone's the first person to say, what do you mean? Why do you think it's wrong? All right, let's do, what do you think? What would be funny? And we also really like each other. So if he's not laughing, I'm not happy, you know? And so it was a fun set to go to because my job was, he here's the other there's a negative way of putting it he gets bored so easily and so you you if it's if it's boring i could look i'd see him behind the monitor okay this scene sucks and he'd be like yeah do something else you know and uh he's it's strange it's like we're you know we were meant to work together and you know we have such similar kind of like styles as far as blocking a scene goes.

1:01:11And we're also not precious. Like once I write it, once it's down, it's like, let's, let's do whatever we can do to make this better. Can I actually just ask you a followup for that? Like you, you just casually mentioned similar styles of blocking a scene. Can you tell me what that means? Because there is a energy that is present in this episode and consecutive following episodes where I love how Lee is like always moving through his space. Can I go? A lot of times. You can go whenever you want, by the way. Yeah. I'd be driving to set and we're, it's the first thing that comes to mind. There's a million things that come to mind, but I know that it's the scene where I have to like pitch my idea for the story to my editor, the, at the, the Heartland press in the, in the show.

1:02:02and I'm and I know what I know that we're under time pressure and I know that the DP is going to want me to sit there and then the person sit there and we can get this scene really fast because I'll sit there and I'm like but you know what you can't you can't sit down can't sit down can't sit if I do sit down I'm getting right back up and that's going to make it such a pain to shoot and I've got a history of making movies I know what a problem that is as a director if an actor has an idea like that. Like I have to pitch this to Sterling the right way. And instead of doing it the right way, I come in and go, I can't sit down.

1:02:36And, and, and, and, and, and, and so I was like, you can't sit down, you know? And then everybody else just has to roll with it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was interesting. Like, you know, cause I don't, I don't know. Like we, we would come on and say, he would say, yeah, I just don't feel like I'm like, I know, you know, like we gotta like, and we wouldn't even kind of finish the sentences. And then it would be like, we'll just see what happens. We would do that a lot. Let's see what happens, you know, and we start walking around and start saying the scene. Usually we sit out and start trying to read the lines.

1:03:05And then it's like, Oh, let's just get up. Well, what if you walked over here? And it was, it's like, it was kind of like jazz in a way, you know, we're improvising as we go. Um, but it always meant something. It's not like, I think that a lot of times people will look at a scene and there's like, okay, there's two people talking. Let's just have them talk. It's going to be brilliant. We're going to shoot it. It's going to be brilliant. And it's not brilliant. Like, like, like, cause you can also take those two characters sometimes. And I'm not saying I don't do that, but like, like you could take those two characters sometimes and get to some sort of other truth about the scene with the way that they move within the scene.

1:03:39And you have a lot of experience now and you know, what smells like real life and what doesn't, I'll do, I've never had this happen to me in my life. I'm doing a scene and I in the back of my mind know that I know the difference between when Sterling is really turned on and when he's like thinking about what's not working sure you know it gets real obvious but so we're acting scene the cameras are rolling and all of a sudden my director walks in to the shot this is boring what is it it's almost like he's trying to smell what's fake you know he's just standing there going I'm like, maybe go over there.

1:04:20Maybe. What do you think? And then all of a sudden I'm like, okay, I got it. I'm free. I'm free. I was feeling trapped too. And once that happens, and it's so exciting. One time we were in the middle of doing a scene, and it wasn't in this episode, but Sterling the idea, we just started shooting the scene. It's like, what if he's wearing the same hat you are? And it's bugging you. It's getting on your nerves. And it takes like a normal scene. It totally screws it up. Cause right. We started doing the scene halfway through the thing. It's like, are you wearing my hat? It's like, well, it's not your hat.

1:04:51It's a hat. No hats are my thing. And it's so weird and it doesn't make any sense, but it reminds me of like shit that happens with my friends. And so all of a sudden the scene smells real. Do you know? And like, if I can, if I may, Michael steal the story that you told the other day, I'm going to do it. New nodding. Yeah. Michael Hitchcock, everybody. He,

1:05:13I went up to him before a take of whenever they're in, the estate sale. And I said, you should slap Lee on the ass when you get up there. And like, it's like that stuff that I feel like, you know, it's within the character, it's within the story. And Michael said that, you know, that told him everything that he needed to know about their relationship. And I think it does to an audience too, right? It's like, oh, they have history. They know each other. They flirt with each other. They mess with each other. They bug each other, you know, whatever. There's all this stuff that's kind of cooked into it.

1:05:43Yeah. Um, that kind of tells your history. And then, and similarly with, um, with killer Mike, who is amazing. I mean, like, I love the familiarity that they have with each other and they are just sitting across from each other, but it's like, you know, I remember Ethan going, maybe I should just like try to sit in this. Like, maybe I should sit here. And I was like, well, what if you sit there and then he kicks you out of it? It's great. No reason for it, but it's just straight. Get out of my barber chair. And then all of a sudden they know each other and you're, you're always hunting for those weird little behaviors that unlock care.

1:06:20Yeah. I mean, we were just talking about all the president's men upstairs, the scene where he's like, is there anywhere you don't smoke? You know? And it's like, has nothing to do with Nixon, but you're like, Oh, I totally understand the relationship. Movie's a great example that they play a lot of that movie in two shots and wide shots. And it's really great because you can see Hoffman and Redford's interaction. Yeah. Yeah, so you actually watch them working together and you don't feel manipulated. And the film has a great sense of realism that's really heightened. And you feel like you're in the room with them because, A, they're good and their behavior is good.

1:06:54But that the director was willing to say, actually, you know what's interesting about the scene is the way they're sitting. You know, that that's communicating something. And a lot of people just they come in, they have a shot list in their head. And anytime an actor does anything weird, it's it's in the director's way as opposed to how I feel, which is trying to help. I wanted to ask you about how you go about creating with that, for lack of a better term, a vibe for a show. How much of what we just saw is this is in my head and I'm trying to get it out through music, through cinematography, through how I block a scene and how I get performances of actors versus you show up in Tulsa, you turn the cameras on, and you have certain performance and it's like lively and you find it on the day or you find it over the course of production.

1:07:40I think there's some of that is like, you show up and told us with the camera, you turn on, even though I don't show up until I live there, but like, it is in my head is this vibe. I don't know. Like I have influences, you know, I've talked about the long goodbye, you know, we were watching, we talked a lot about the long goodbye and killing of a Chinese bookie and like, um, you know, drowning pool and all these, all these, the big Lebowski and all of these things. I don't know. It's what I see in my head. Let's say that. But I also got really good. I'm really grateful for, I think of it as like Altman or like Sidney Lumet or someone like when Altman was doing a lot of TV directing, you know, you're able to make mistakes and learn kind of what you want and you, and you learn kind of what you like.

1:08:23I did a lot of short documentaries. Some of it for the, this land press that Heartland presses is based on, but I made a lot of short documentaries. And the thing about short documentary making documentaries is you walk into a space you have to right off the bat know where the camera goes how to edit it how to tell the story you're trying to tell and how to get a performance out of someone and that was just like over and over this repetition it trained me to be able to I think keep things alive and kind of moving and not feel too bored but I mean I guess I don't even know if I answer the question but it is a vibe that I want to create.

1:09:01Like I feel it, you know, but it is a feeling. It's hard to kind of explain it, I guess. The show you guys just watched is exactly what he described to me when we were first talking about what it would, and it happens slowly shot by shot. It gets unveiled. I remember, um, when I was younger and I was, I was doing dead poet society with Peter Weir. I had the distinct feeling that that he had seen the movie before, like 30 years ago, and he was remembering the movie. So it's kind of like you'd be blocking a scene, and when he'd be like, you'd just be looking, it's like something's, like, it's not the way I remember it.

1:09:43You know? And then you'd go over and sit there or do something weird with your hair and be like, oh, that's it. That's in the movie. Like, as if, like, he was, do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's amazing. It's very strange to me because that is how it happens. And I think it's just, I am playing it in my head and I think about it for so long, even before I write anything down, I'm thinking about what I want to write down. And I think about it for so long and I write to music and I, and I do have the vibe in my head and the beautiful thing about this. And this wasn't, you know, for filmmakers out there, like it wasn't like that for me in the first half of my career, it wasn't until reservation dogs that I got good enough, like confidence met with talent, I think.

1:10:24And I got good enough to see it in my head and then watch it come alive in front of me. And the beautiful thing about when it started happening with reservation dogs and especially this is it was better than what it was what I had in my head, but it was better. Yeah. Yeah. But it wasn't always like that. Let's talk Tulsa, which is arguably your co-star in this, in the show. Um, I've been there once last year and it was unlike any place else. And I think that this show does this incredible job of evoking that. Ethan, did you spend much time there other than shooting reservation dogs before making?

1:10:58I just driven through Tulsa my whole life until until res dogs. And when I got to that set and I felt it immediately, I felt so comfortable. The energy that, oh, you know, the production designer, the sound engineer, the first AD, the whole team, they trust each other and they believe in each other. And they have a great, strange combination of immense gratitude for the privilege of getting to be a professional creative person met with this irreverence of like, I've got this opportunity. Fuck it. I'm doing something with it. Yeah. You know, I'm not. And so it had a rebellious spirit and the humility of gratitude.

1:11:44and it was really pleasant to be on. And the way... Eric Edelstein almost bought a house there. This guy was just, he won't quit talking about it. It wasn't just Sterling. It was the company of players and of people that really cared about making something to make it, not about what was going to happen later or what it was going to get them. It's like, what are we doing today? How could today be cool? And that's an energy that really, really turns me on and is pervasive in Tulsa. The history of Tulsa, the pain of Tulsa, the love of Tulsa is it's right on the surface. And, you know, we've seen a lot of noirs in, you know, New York and L.A.

1:12:29and Chicago and Boston and New Orleans. And this is a really unique part of America that is actually extremely interesting to be at right now. to talk about all the crimes of America are on the surface in Oklahoma. They're right there and you can see them in the people, in the places, in the architecture. It's alive and it's present. And so it's a perfect place for noir. Yeah, it's also like, I don't know. I think there's something and everyone can have this. There's this, especially I'm talking about the film side of things, because there's such a lot, you know, it's growing the film industry there, but it's like, it's been so few and far between, we were all, all independent filmmakers.

1:13:16So when we got these opportunities, res dogs and, you know, something like killers, the flower moon comes and shoots there. It's like, everyone is just so excited to be working on something. And I just think like, and that's not just Tolson's, you know, people from LA crew from LA or crew from Louisiana or Atlanta would come and work as well with us. And, you know, like they would just be crushed that they had to leave because they just felt something there. And it was that mix of what Ethan's talking about. And also like just being so happy to be doing this. I mean, this is what we're doing. You know, we're trying to tell stories.

1:13:50I'll give you an example. We had the wrap party when we finally wrapped the show and it wasn't anywhere. It just was right where we We finished shooting a party erupted. We were on a street in Tulsa and you know, somebody brought some beers. Somebody brought all of the trucks just lowered their, um, whatever that thing is. Yeah. And everybody just starts sitting on it and music was playing. Somebody lights a fire and everybody starts congregating. And I hung out there for a couple hours. It's like, all right, this is, this is fun. I've never seen this happen, but I've got to go pack cause I'm flying tomorrow.

1:14:23So I left for a couple of hours and I packed up the house and fed the dogs. And I was like, it's like now 1230. I'm like, what if they're still there? So I get in the car and I drive over. Everybody's still partying. There's more people there. I'm like, all right. Park the car and sit down for another couple of hours. And that doesn't happen. I wanted to ask you about the strip that Lee's bookstore is on, because it is kind of a slice of heaven on earth. You've got a touch of vinyl, the record store. You've got Josh Fadum, Josh Fadum store, everybody. uh you've got the the law offices making blair's law offices and then you've got sweet emily's yeah sweet emily's which is a diner out of my dreams and then and the moment ethan walks into hoodow before he gets jumped and he's like i'm home and it's like you've i think everybody here has probably had that feeling walking into a used bookstore you're like i'm gonna spend three hours here this is awesome tell me about making this this little world inside of tulsa because you had to construct that, right?

1:15:25Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like what's interesting is that blocks really cool. I mean, my first feature film that I ever made four sheets to the wind, I shot there. So like, we just kind of like in that same building and I made a diner and I made a bar and the main character lived upstairs where Lee lives. Um, and it just so happened that this building was free again and we rented it and this old restaurant diner thing, nothing ever survives on that corner. And so we just like, I would love to open that diner, you know, like keep it. But like, we just, it was basically having a little backlot on sixth street in Tulsa and able to put, and we rented it all and we put all of the businesses right there.

1:16:07And it was just sort of, you know, cause at first it was like, you know, at first he actually went to the coffee shop. It was like the waffle house. Then he would come back to the bookstore. Nothing was close, but it was like, what if they're all kind of close together? And then it just represents Tulsa as a street, a specific part of Tulsa, you know? Um, and it just worked out beautifully, you know? And it's like, uh, and you know, Cody lightning who plays, um, Waylon, who's the wild guy with the cowboy hat. He's like, you know, I kill people. Um, funny enough, he was the lead actor at, at, at 19 years old and four sheets to the wind in that blog.

1:16:45So he got to come back and he got to go come back and do security. let's talk a little bit about the Lee that inspired this character and also some of the themes of the, the show itself. You know, I got a chance to watch maybe it's the one that you made. And I was like watching the YouTube about the Tulsa Tulsa Riley in, in earlier today. And I was like, Oh, I had no idea. Was it with Leroy? Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I had no idea, like whether or not Ethan you had drawn, was there a line where you're like, I'm going to be inspired by this character, but there are going to be certain flourishes that I bring.

1:17:21I should say that what mattered to me is, you know, I still and sent the script. I loved it. So let's do this. I've never done it. I've never accepted a part. You certainly say this a thousand times because I said it to him all the time. Like I've never done this where I took a part where I haven't read it. That's my whole teaching. My whole understanding of performance is to understand the theme and metaphor of a piece so that my performance isn't about entertaining people. It's in service of a story. That's where, where you can get lost and lose yourself. And that's what feels really good to me.

1:17:56And I was like, I don't know exactly how to do this. And I wanted to understand what the lowdown was going to be about. What, what is it about besides making people be amused, you know, like, and, um, and Sterling came over to my house and showed me all these videos that he made kind of way later too. It was after we'd already, the script was already, it was much later. We knew we were really doing it. And you came over the house and we watched a bunch of those and you sent a bunch of them to me. And what mattered to me is that the show is coming from a real place. The engine is that this person has something to communicate.

1:18:37And what Leroy Chapman was obvious, was a really special person and obviously somebody to be admired and somebody I was really interested in, but he also represented something to Sterling that really interested me. When I was growing up and like at first becoming an adult in the arts, you meet people who are extremely idealistic and their idealism and their passion is blistering and amazing and inspiring. And it creates blind spots. You know, they don't see the glasses of wine, their tail is breaking over, you know, because they're so hell bent to do this thing to them as noble. And that part of the character and that part of people that I do, it's a story I really love to tell of people who are willing to put themselves online for something they believe in and for something that is in service to others, that they see themselves as interconnected with their community and that my wellbeing is connected to your wellbeing.

1:19:45And the truth of being a journalist is very similar to the spiritual truth of wanting to be a performer, of to drive it, to give people something true to look at so you can see your own life, reflect on it, reflect on your culture, get outside of your own point of view. All these things are the mission of my life. And so I could see that in Lee. And I could also, I mean, we have friends, I have friends who, who've died because they can't see those blind spots, you know, that their cause is noble, but the internal damage that's created or the damage to their family and damage to other things, because they're so blindly in pursuit of what they love.

1:20:29And that contradiction of it being both noble and destructive seemed real to me. And, and these, his, uh, Sterling's work with Leroy Chapman, um, was inspirational to like, I knew that was the engine of the show. Does that make sense? Yeah. And it's also, I think, you know, the thing that he and I bond over and the character is like, it's scary to know that you're passionate about doing these things. And it's like, to what end, you know, like we're sitting here and we did something that we can be very proud of, but there's also versions of us that did something and, and destroyed their lives or whatever, you know, they took some wrong turns or whatever, hurt their family, hurt their family, whatever.

1:21:16And he and I talked a lot about the father daughter relationship in that way, because at the time when I was, when my daughter, my, my daughter was that age and it was a lot of like being an independent filmmaker, should I keep doing this? We were in, you know, it was hard to make money. I didn't know if I was ever going to make money. And it was very inspired by that. He's a father of two daughters as well. Um, and you know, as far as like Leroy too, it was like, it was kind of this, it was this idea though of a, I didn't want him to feel like it wasn't a biopic because I didn't want him to feel like he had to do one thing.

1:21:52You know, I wanted him to be free in that. And so that's why it was just kind of a jumping off point. But yes, like it was to embody these people that kind of inspire us and sometimes, you know, get too close to the flames. Yeah. I mean, I was, I found him to be an incredibly entertaining inheritor of the legacy of like the private investigator over the course of, you know, probably all the books and movies that we love. And there are some guys who are just like really laconic and they'll do something a little bit just to watch what happens. And then there are the guys who are shambolic and they kind of just happen into it.

1:22:25But Lee is like, I'm fucking jumping through the glass window here and we'll see who reacts to what here. But you can tell the Macon Blair character is like, yeah, he's a loon, but he's really entertaining. You know, the Mike's character obviously has this effect. Everybody has this affection for him, but they kind of have to stay a little bit out of the blast radius. Right. Yeah. It's scary to get me that close to someone like that. Right. Like you have to protect yourself too, but you, but you care about it, but you also know, I mean like even, you know, Sienna East who plays Deidre right over here.

1:22:58Um, she's like, look, she's like, you know, it affects me too. Like, this is your place. This is my place of work as well. Cause I, one of my favorite lines is when he's like, yeah, people get beat up all the time. People always get, you know, And it's like, do they? I don't know if that's true. And, you know, and Deedra's like, yeah, well, you got to like, this is our place of business. It also affects me, you know, and I think that that's kind of everyone's relationship with him. The one that loves him the most, I think, being his daughter, you know, and that's kind of the heart of the story.

1:23:33And that's the scariest relationship because it's like, that's the thing that you got to protect. I'm excited for you guys to get to see the rest of the show because everything's throwing, talking about is manifest in the show. Even just in this episode, an incredibly, you're like a five tool player in this one, because you've got to do humor. You got to be vulnerable. You got to get your ass beat a couple of times. And you are like the expository fulcrum for the show. Like you were the one who's like, and then all of this has happened and all of this might happen because of that. And it's like, Ethan's the best at saying, we got to get all this information out here.

1:24:09Let me, let me just like, let me, let me, let me just see how I can say it. You know what I'm like? Just cooks it down to like really quick and a couple of lines and bam, the exposition is out the door. You know, it's great. But did you find that the, like the nature of the things that were being asked of you almost fueled the desperation of the performance or the character itself kind of? Yeah. I mean, there's a rebellious spirit to Sterling. And there's a rebellious spirit to try to make a show like this and put it out into the homes of America and say just to imagine that anyone would care, you know.

1:24:43And we had a lot of pressure on us in that and not enough time. And you can use that as permission to fail or you can use it as wood in the stove, you know. And so I enjoy that. I felt like we were making an epic, you know, eight hour indie movie and we were trying to shoot it well, trying to shoot it smart. And I know that all that has to do with preparation in your mind. And sometimes it's like all those movies that we love, you know, like we're in L.A. right now. I'm sure all of you are like movie lovers. It's like all those movies that we love. Well, somebody made them, you know, somebody blocked those scenes.

1:25:29Somebody wrote those words. They weren't superhuman. They were humans just like us, but they were like, Oh, I'm going to say something. And they made the right amount of things and put it in a stew and they wouldn't give up from making something interesting and seeing what, what was in their head, making it happen, you know, and that's such an attainable thing. And we just did it. I mean, we just fought for it day after day. I get so inspired. Like I watched before we started, I watched the long goodbye again. And if you watch the opening of that movie, it's amazing. There's this whole sequence about him getting cat food.

1:26:03It's like 30 minutes of a cat. Yeah. He's the best cat actor ever. When it first starts, he's sitting there in bed, and you see all these marks on the wall above him. And you're like, what are those marks? And then he lights his first cigarette. And you're like, oh. And the filmmaker in me goes, all right, who had that idea? That's a great, I mean, it's just a tiny detail. So easy to do the scene without that detail. Yeah. And yet that detail makes the whole thing come alive. And the way he talks to himself and mumbles, and you can't, you can just hear the studio executive saying, I can't understand what he's saying.

1:26:39And like, it's okay. Neither can I. It's cool. But it's the, the pull to mediocrity is so strong. There's so much fear in whenever anybody's making art, that's not going to work. That's not going to work. And you do have to consider it all. You do have to think about it all. And you also have to sometimes just go, I think it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. And what do we remember that movie for? The Cats. They can. Yeah. And I mean, like hats off to FX for giving us freedom. A lot of them are here tonight. And I feel so blessed to have my first experience in television be with them because these people are all really serious about putting substantive, meaningful art into the world and making it a commercial enterprise.

1:27:25You know, meaning like, let's, what if we could do something really cool and have it work and, um, and they're dedicated to it and they've been supporting us. And, uh, the only reason we were able to do that is because of the positivity that you built with reservation dogs. And, um, and, and they've done with a lot of shows besides the shows we're involved with. I wanted to know what was the thing that surprised you most about making a mystery to the extent that you would define this as one. but like, man, I, I, I get pretty cocky about it. Cause I watch a lot of them and I read a lot of them.

1:27:58I'm like, well, you know, this, they've kind of tipped their hand here. Is there, was there a little bit of like, Oh, now I'm in now I'm the guy deciding like who done it. And yeah, it's so difficult. Hardest things ever. Um, like I can write people hanging out all day, you know, like I can do that in my sleep, um, and dialogue and character. Like I I'm on top of it. Like I got you, uh, throw a bit of mystery in there and I, and I conspiracy plot. Just let's face it. It's four letters that are hard for you. P L O T.

1:28:35Most definitely. But it was such a good challenge. And I mean like with reservation dogs, well reservation dogs taught me cause we would play as you, we talked about like we would play with genre in different episodes, you know? And what I fell in love with was how much I could say in the episodes, that I played with, that I was sort of making a genre piece. And like, all of a sudden I realized like, oh, you can actually say more with genre than you can just out there, you know, free balling or whatever, you know, like you can say more within the parameters that you set up for yourself. And that's exciting to me.

1:29:13That's like super exciting. And so that was exciting. But then, And, you know, once you're in the mystery of it all, I mean, here's the thing I have, I treat everything the same, which is like, whether it's blocking, whether it's like watching a performance, whether it's writing a scene, whether it's writing dialogue, I always, it goes through like my brain filter, which is, have I seen this before? I don't want to ever see, I don't want to ever do something I haven't seen before. Or if it's, I've seen it before, I want it to be very different. And how do I change it? How do I put life into it?

1:29:42How do I bring something new to it? And I went after the plot and the crime the same way. And also, you know, hired Walter Mosley and other really great crime writers to help me. So, you know, that was also part of it. One of my favorite things about this episode that you guys got to see is just the tapestry of stuff that the viewer gets introduced to Jim Thompson, Bob Wills, the, you know, 70s music, the 70s film font of the credit sequence. And I thought maybe as a last question, I'd ask you guys, what's one thing that you discovered writer musician, something over the course of maybe making this show together or hanging out that you wouldn't have didn't know about before, but you got turned on to, because I think a lot of people are going to get turned on to some really cool stuff by watching this.

1:30:34I'll start. Um, thank God help me with, um, there's a, well, she's not in this episode, but the wonderful actor who plays Pearl. Oh, Ken Pomeroy, a friend of mine. Yeah. Well, one of the things about hanging out with Sterling that's so wonderful, which is strangely a lot of the best artists I've worked with, the best artists I've worked with, have a love of other artists, painters, musicians, filmmakers, writers. And you're always telling everybody to go check this out and go check this out. And music is a particular passion of yours. And you cast this young woman who I had never met before, who's just a brilliant singer songwriter and she can act.

1:31:17And it ended up making what could have been a two dimensional character or really three dimensional presence in in the show. And I could say the same thing about Jacob Tovar. And so basically I take the whole crew and everybody. We go listen to my friends play music like every week while we're shooting. It's pretty beautiful. And then you put everybody in the show. Yeah. Then everyone's an actor. That's not that life, man. Um, thank you guys so much for doing this and thank you so much for making such a great show. Thank you. Thank you to everybody. Come out. Brain. Thanks everybody. Brain. Take care.