‘Beef’ Is Back: Season 2, Episodes 1-5 and ‘Top Chef’ S23E7

21:43Andy Greenwald:We can only be us. Elite Juliette Binoche performance. It's on Hulu now. the thing that I love about beef that really crystallized at some point I believe it's in it might have even been in the first episode I did watch them pretty stacked on top of each other yeah when the characters are scrolling when the characters are googling when the characters are whatsapping and texting and instagram messaging and then going into recently deleted the way they're living their lives online on a show, I realized that first of all, interiority, as I love it, or as, you know, generally we love in novels is extremely exterior these days.

22:22Andy Greenwald:We perform interiority all the time in our daily lives, whether it's the pictures we post or whether it's the wellness journeys we embark on, or even just bringing everything up in either actual therapy or therapeutic talk. Like the business of interior lives is about making that external. And I feel like Sonny has really captured that moment in a way that it feels artful and true. And specifically, there's a moment early on, and then we can get into the specifics. But early on in the season, Carrie Mulligan, who I think is brilliant always, and incredibly so in this series, is toggling between conversations and Googles and life choices the way we all do.

23:01Andy Greenwald:And she's reaching out to an old flame and then blocking the old flame and then engaging with someone else, which causes her to go back and unblock the old flame. And the immediacy of her emotional decision-making is so dysregulated, but also so available to her, that that then finds its match in the way these characters bounce off of each other, like super radical free electrons in this fishbowl of contemporary society. You're really tapping into something there. Because it's also the thing that I think maybe at some points makes my skin crawl when I watch it. Yeah, it's intense. You know, not necessarily because I, probably partially because I recognize it in myself, but, you know, there's often this trope about, like, well, would digital cell phones or would smartphones ruin this movie?

23:48Yes. And we're often like, yes, Die Hard would be five minutes long if people could text, you know? It's strange to watch a show feel native to that in a really, really perceptive way. So much of the deception, the betrayal in this show is fueled by or the mechanism it's expressed through is deleting text messages is, you know, like basically that kind of almost digital forgery that goes on if you are in an untrusting relationship or any kind of relationship. And there's like, you know, to what extent are people's phones there, an extension of their own, you know, personal, private thoughts and to what extent are they just a piece of like tracking machinery that is following your wants and impulses.

24:40And, you know, it's not like this is a digital surveillance show, but a lot of what goes wrong for these characters happens because people have fucking computers in their hands all the time.

24:49Andy Greenwald:And it is not an impediment to the storytelling. It is often the source of storytelling. Yeah. One thing that we, I think that we celebrate whenever we see it is when we can recognize, even without behind-the-scenes interviews or access to the showrunners, moments when it felt like they had painted themselves into a corner and they were like, actually, this challenge is an opportunity. Everything about this show flows from the reality of what they carry in their pockets. The video doesn't happen if they don't have it that way. The seething jealousy of other people's lives that fuels everything all four of these characters do in different social strata wouldn't happen if they didn't have this in their pocket all the time.

25:25Andy Greenwald:They are living, You know, we've often talked about how, like, it's hard to break through as a TV show because you are competing against everything that's ever been made all the time. And this show is about how it's almost impossible to be alive when you're competing against every other person who's alive and has ever been alive. And how do you stay within your own life? So it is, use the word native. I think this show is native to our time in a way that feels very, very exciting and gets the details right in the sense that you know the creators are being observant in the way that Austin tosses out the word late-stage capitalism as if it was something that had been on a high shelf and he had just recently reached and taken it down.

26:02Andy Greenwald:The way that when... And Austin is played by Charles Melton. Who is incredible. I can't wait to talk about him. And Ashley is played by Kaylee Spaney, who I think is remarkable in this. The four leads are astonishing in this. When Lindsay... This sentence alone is going to give you a sense of the show if you haven't watched it yet. But when Lindsay and... Oh my God, I'm blanking on Oscar Isaac's character's name. Josh. Josh are driving, looking for their missing dog named Burberry, she says in the middle of her, you know, absolute anxiety spiral, oh, Childish Gambino just shared... My next door post.

26:34Andy Greenwald:My next door post. And when they go to a rescue, they say something about like, I saw Gambino's post. And he's just like, hey, he's a nice guy. The specificity, it would be different if they were like, Donald Glover shared it. Yeah. That, even in that small line, communicated to us their relationship with celebrity and the people that they do or don't know and how intimate they are with them. Every moment is considered in a way that I found really thoughtful and exciting. Yeah, I think that there's, when I'm watching this show, I have basically, and I'm curious whether you ever do this with this or other series, you're having essentially the front, this sort of superficial visceral experience of like anxiety and or just tracking the various threads.

27:17And I should mention at this point that very quickly into this show, Josh, who, you know, essentially his identity as being the general manager of this country club. The country club is taken over by a Korean company run by someone named Chairwoman Park. Played by Oscar winner Yoon Yoo-jung. That's right. And... Who's awesome. She is fantastic. And it brings in like a whole other element to the show, which involves like her husband...

27:47Andy Greenwald:who's played by the legend Song Kang-ho, who's starred Parasite and Memories of Murder, one of my favorite actors alive, and he's just... He plays a plastic surgeon working in Seoul who loses a patient, and that is in its own sense like a triggering event for the entire series. And Eunice, who's a chairwoman Parks' assistant, is also a very important character, but it blows out of the doors of the Ojai Country Club into a kind of much bigger canvas. So you're watching it and you're tracking it and you're kind of like analyzing all of the like, oh, this document was left out on somebody's table.

28:24So they saw it and it's there's a lot of embezzlement stuff going on. And then there is like the other part, which I think I'm much more into, which is thinking about beef rather than necessarily watching it. I don't find this anxious or uncomfortable to watch at all. Maybe it's not my favorite show of the year, but it's probably the smartest show of the year. And I think it has the most to say. And I think it it's it's the deepest. so far you know like and maybe that should be yeah that all alone should make it the best but i think that seeing these three couples at various stages of their life essentially like late 20s late 30s early 40s and then much older like senior citizens essentially well the chairwoman is 20 years older than her chairwoman's probably in her 60s right 50 late 50s chairwoman the actress is

29:12Andy Greenwald:approaching 80. Right. And her husband is 50. Did you say chairwoman is much older than her husband? Yes. Yes, sorry. Yes. So the chairwoman is approaching 80, but the husband is probably in his 50s. But in any case, much older than Josh and Lindsay. And the way the show kind of depicts love getting corrupted no matter what age you are, depending on your economic situation, and also love getting corrupted regardless of your economic situation. You know, that there is essentially this coarsening, brittle and brittling effect that happens to any kind of romance. This was a hallmark of the first season as well, which is that the show escalates and then asks what comes next.

29:56Andy Greenwald:We've talked about, this came up in our industry conversations, I think recently, and when we were thinking about the way characters fight on that show, and then the types of, and in relationship actually to the way characters fight on, or fought on succession. And one of the things that was remarkable about succession was that when Tom and Shiv went at each other, it felt apocalyptic. And then the show wasn't afraid to say, the day after, what happens in the smoking ruin? How much more is there to bomb? What remains alive? And the thing that Sonny does so well is he pushes his chips in on these fights that can, you know, the smallest piece of kindling can ignite them between the characters.

30:33Andy Greenwald:But the fight that begins the series is immediately spun into something else where Lindsay is like, oh, you know, If you don't have fights like this, then you're hiding something, which plants a seed in Austin's mind about what honesty is worth and how it's expressed in relationships. And it allows us to see a little bit further in the emotional journey of these characters as they get more increasingly caught up in these Byzantine plot elements that are compelling and beautifully stacked on top of each other. But the show doesn't succeed or fail on the back of them, which is something that I really, really like.

31:07Andy Greenwald:It succeeds and fails on its continuing emotional archaeological dig of these people, all of whom who are given the full sweep of personhood and all of whom can be both buffoons and victims in equal measure. Do you think that when characters are as well drawn as this and are given, to use your words, the full sweep of personhood, it kind of obviates the need to have the do you like these people conversation? I hope so. I think, yeah, I think it's a great question to ask. And I find it, I mean, I find that to be the most boring question you could ever ask about art. It is, but I do think that there's something to the durational experience of watching television where you have to like at least spending time with them.

31:52You don't necessarily have to want the guy to be your babysitter, but you want to see them over and over and over again.

32:00Andy Greenwald:And partly because they are, they can be competent in ways that are compelling. They can be charming in ways that are entertaining or funny often, which is something that the show is able to do quite well. But the other thing that keeps you coming back, and I think kept people coming back to succession, not just from a baseline like kill the rich attitude, but from a, oh my God, that excruciating moment of vulnerable humanity is pretty relatable. And it kills me that someone I hate, like Kendall or, you know, or in this case, Josh, is also capable of that moment. That's what the best shows do.

32:34Andy Greenwald:And that's what the show is, to me is doing through five episodes. There, in what I've read about the making of this season, it sounds like Sonny wrote very specifically for the people who he cast. So not necessarily originally, because I know that others had been in the mix for the show. I mean, you had mentioned who was the couple. Originally, and rarely, you know, hit lists or wish lists get leaked or get announced. The first stories about Beef Season 2 said that the four actors were circling the parts. and it was Kaylee Spaney and Charles Melton and Jake Gyllenhaal and Anne Hathaway, who I think would have been phenomenal in this.

33:13Andy Greenwald:And I actually think Jake Gyllenhaal would have been better than Oscar Isaac, an actor who, you know, cold, I like more, but we can talk about that specifically. I disagree with you about that. I think I'm a little bit warmer on the Oscar Isaac performance here than you are. I wonder what it is you think, why do you say that? Okay, so my... there are certain things that you can just tell, like, you can, I don't know if you can tell, but like, Charles Melton is incredible in the show. He is so, so good at doing something that a lot of actors struggle with, even great actors. Gosling is good at this too.

33:50Andy Greenwald:Being, um, dumb, and putting that in quotes, but also somehow soulful. Yeah, Brad Pitt's the master of that. It's, but this is, this part is Brad Pitt's performance in Burn After Reading, but with the humanity filters set slightly differently. He is kind of buffoonish, but he also weeps when a bee dies in their apartment, which tells you a lot about him, both good and bad. I think, and I think that like little decisions too just suit and flatter the actors. Like I think Carey Mulligan is amazing in I think everything I've ever seen her in. I think she's one of our best actors. The decision to let her be British in this is so crucial.

34:31What she said is, I knew that it would require this performance was going to require a degree of improvisation that would just be much easier if I wasn't also worrying about accent and dialect.

34:42Andy Greenwald:And so we don't know what the original conception of the character was, but adding in certain details about her life before Josh and about - Dating a royal, yeah. Being photographed in the Daily Mail, being posh, and then finding herself in circumstances that her friends back home will probably all heart on Instagram, but the reality of which is a lot more diminished than people might realize, is pitch perfect. I love Oscar Isaac. As long as we've been doing this podcast, we've talked about him like one of our favorite actors, which he is. I find him less, he's so good and uniquely good at being nebbishy.

35:18Andy Greenwald:I mean, Inside Llewyn Davis is a masterpiece. But there's something about his presentation and his physicality recently where he looks like he's still auditioning for Moon Knight and he looks super ripped and good and healthy. And I know that's part of like the Ojai lifestyle and presenting as someone who can hang with the rich people and Benny Blanco and Michael Phelps as he does in the show. But it is slightly, to me, makes his neediness and his vanity and his weakness impenetrable. There's also, I think it's important to note that that character is kind of living in a state of suspended animation where he's still trying to get the sickest stereo set up and has sports memorabilia all over his man cave you know and it's like kind of like i am going to preserve this version of myself and and i think that that explains also like why he looks the way he looks like he's trying to stay as long as he can in his child like his his best version of his body and it does track that like people who are rich and successful and famous wouldn't they would bring him along because he looks the part even if he can't play fully the part with his finances and everything else i this this is just It's a minor note because when he and Carey Mulligan are going at each other, he's exceptional.

36:32Andy Greenwald:When he's sort of looming over Kaylee Spaney and threatening her and stuff, the granular details of the performance are spectacular. But there is something, like when I see Jake Gyllenhaal on screen, I don't trust him. And I think that's a key part of some of his best performances going back to what I briefly thought was a masterpiece of television, presumed innocent. but that is something that he knows how to use even in like the Spider-Man movie he was in you're like he's using his charisma but there's something spoiled there well it's telling that it was Hathaway and Gyllenhaal because clearly Sonny has like an eye for pre-existing chemistry between performers and they've been in at least one film that I can think of before Mulligan and Isaac have played across from each other in Drive and in Llewyn Davis and obviously are very familiar with each other as performers and I think it works really well and on the flip side of it Spaney and Melton I think have this kind of like perfect vibe of like I can't remember how long they're supposed to have been dating for a year and a half but they're engaged and it has that like a lot of this show is about what does marriage mean and what is your duty and what is your sense of loyalty to somebody made out of.

37:55Andy Greenwald:And do you lift each other up or do you weigh each other down? Sure. I mean, I think that that inevitably happens in every marriage, but like the sort of bonds that people have and like how they want to define each other through their relationships is really fascinating. So we'll talk a little bit more specifically about the episodes now. The first two, I don't really have a ton to say about. We've kind of set them up as these inciting incidents. It's important to know that Spaney's character, Ashley, has a medical issue with her ovary that is going to need surgical attention at some point, but she doesn't have the money.

38:27She doesn't have health insurance because of her current status at the country club, how she's working. She uses this blackmail footage to sort of start to attain more and more status, both up the chain of command at the country club, but just getting financial benefits. And to me, the series really takes flight in episodes three, four, and five.

38:50Andy Greenwald:I agree. Three features a wonderful escapade of Carey Mulligan's character and Oscar Isaac's character have long thought of starting a B &B. And then they decide they want to start a BB &B, which is a bed, bath, and barn. And in the barn, they would hold concerts because they're remembering going to see Hot Chip at the Hollywood Bowl or LCD sound system at the Hollywood Bowl. The aging millennial details are choice. also that exact dream that they have floated above Los Angeles like a giant thought balloon out of every house on the east side during COVID. Like that is so... We could move to Palm Desert and Queens of the State Age could play there.

39:32It's so much cheaper there. And they go on this sort of fact-finding mission to see like another couple's version, very similar version of their idea and just immediately let their dream die. like as they walk through the realities of what they would have to do but also the scale at which they would have to be successful

39:55Andy Greenwald:and who they would be competing against and who they would be competing against and how difficult that would be. I even thought that the way that, so Josh texts Troy, who's played by William Fickner, the great character actor, who's the sort of alpha of the country club in terms of rich guys and is like, you know, we're thinking about doing this and instead of being like, yes, I'll invest, he's like, you should meet my friends who are doing it already. and uh it's just such like a perfect like that's how a dream gets killed is with the one person not showing any interest and telling you by the way someone else is doing this already uh i just love that whole episode and then that episode culminates with a great fight between austin and ashley that ends with her jumping out of a moving vehicle shout out lady bird uh and then she winds up in the hospital and her medical condition in the in episode four is this harrowing like other side of the pit adventure where she, you know, has got this huge deductible.

40:54Josh comes and -

40:55Andy Greenwald:And she doesn't understand what deductibles are. It was a great - Yes, and Josh comes and offers to help her, but only if she shows him that she has deleted or is deleting all of the backups of the video in the cloud, which again is this sort of like three layers of mistrust and everything attached to, you know, all these digital devices that we have is that nothing is ever really deleted. And a lesser show would run from that, either because the creators are old and don't know that things stay in your recently deleted folder or on the cloud, or because it would dramatically, they would feel like it would dramatically cut off their opportunities.

41:30Andy Greenwald:The show brings it in and makes it part of the story. And there's all this stuff happening while they're in the hospital waiting room waiting for Ashley to be seen. Seemingly firmer injuries from falling out of the car, But really, what's really coming is this, the ovary situation is kind of coming to a head, is that there are these text messages between Austin and Eunice, Terminium Park's assistant. There is Austin being somewhat terrapatious about his designs on becoming an unlicensed physical trainer for the club. but then Ashley is also responding to these text messages and then deleting all of them and then Eunice is responding when Austin sees the phone to text messages that he hasn't sent to his mind so it gets very very not convoluted but like kind of complex when it comes to the ways people are communicating and the fact that Josh kind of holds medical attention ransom for Ashley is a final straw she has to go into emergency surgery they have to remove an ovary and at the end of that she is like I will have my my revenge in this life for the next and winds up releasing unintentionally perhaps Josh and Lindsay's dog and that leads to my favorite episode of the series so far which is five where Lindsay has to spend an hour looking for Burberry while Josh goes to play with Hot Chip.

42:51Andy Greenwald:At a chalet in Utah off of a private jet. Episode four we should note Jake Schreier does a brilliant job directing the first episode and I believe he came back for the finale of the season, but Sonny directs this four. It is a Lynchian fantasia in a way that is not annoying, which I think is worth noting. Yeah. Because it is a very challenging tone to strike where you can have, you can have, you know, silly jokes and humor, like not in that episode, but like Austin thinking that in voices written for M-I-S-C, MISC is a misspelling of mist. Yeah. And he imagines that someone named Marta is providing mist for the club every morning.

43:30Andy Greenwald:Um, but also have like kind of creepy, kind of funny, just very unnerving glimpses of healthcare crises in Ventura County all at the same time. And then these just constant, um, subtle is not the right word, but appropriately rhythmic beats of the show's thematic drum where like, um, Ashley does not know how healthcare works because she's never had it before. And in fact, the strongest opinion, sorry, the health insurance, but the strongest opinion she voices at least through five episodes is the preference, Gatorade flavor preference. That's what she feels the most strongly about. The whole Gatorade thing has killed me.

44:11Andy Greenwald:In her life. It's remarkable. Did you ever feel, I don't. What does he say in my professional opinion? The quench comes through. The quench is the same? Yeah, the quench is the same. Did the, there are very funny jokes in this season. Did any of it ever take you out? I wondered, like there's a moment when because the one question I had is the latest criticism that I'm going to offer because I think ultimately I don't believe this to be true. But there were a couple moments when it felt like the characters, particularly Ashley and Austin's intelligence level, toggled based on how good the joke might be.

44:48Andy Greenwald:Whereas Austin is sort of the golden retriever suite, not so smart guy and thinks Misk is missed. In that episode alone, obviously she's been injured and potentially concussed and has a knee and is experiencing torsion in her ovary. I like that you said has a knee, like your Joe Buck. She has a knee. She's out with a knee. AJ Brown's got a knee. She was. That she, you know, gets the deductible stuff all mixed up but then also thinks that the hospital pain scale is numbered like letterboxd. Yeah. Which was super funny. I mean, look, I think that... It didn't bother me. I wondered if you bumped on it.

45:24It doesn't bother me. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me, nor does a guy being obsessed with hot chip really bother me. You know what I mean? Like, its specificity is what roots it in reality to me. Totally.

45:37Andy Greenwald:By the way, you should mention, the reason she jumps out of the car is not any proof of infidelity. It's that she sees that Eunice's Instagram is private, and yet Austin has been allowed entry into her private Instagram. That is a very contemporary concern. That is not a dramatic act-out beat that I would say that my parents would flag were they to know how to turn on Netflix or what Netflix was or what beef is? That's the thing is I do wonder for people who are not like glued to their phones, like how some of this plays. No, I have no problem with the humor. And I also thought like that episode four was a really great example of something that's incredibly tense and everything is kind of building towards Ashley's surgery, but he still takes moments to have Austin have that weird interaction with the woman at the snack machine, vending machine.

46:26And, you know, the woman brought in on a 5150 who's tripping balls and like there's just flourishes. And it feels very, very lived in, even though it's a Netflix show that has like movie stars in it. It feels very much like and I for me, the reason why four and especially the end of four, the face Kaylee Spaney makes when Josh's long promised like white glove treatment comes through way too late. and the guy is like, oh, I wish Josh had called me earlier because I could have gotten you seen immediately and we probably, like the underlying message being we could have saved your ovary. Her nostrils flare for just a second and you're like, man, Josh is fucking dead.

47:08Like this is, and it is, I always remember Tina Fey talking about Rachel McAdams in Mean Girls and how like you can tell you've got a movie star when she can do a page of dialogue with an eyebrow arch or with like with one gesture.

47:23Andy Greenwald:Yeah, you can cut the words. and Kaylee Spaney does not have to say a thing but she is like this guy just might have robbed me of having a baby I'm gonna make it my life's mission to bring him down now that fluctuates over the next couple of episodes kind of going back to the the Shiv and Tom corollary that you brought up but to see her in the very next episode being kind of Carrie Mulligan's therapist as they walk around Ojai looking for this dog is it's its own kind of thriller because you're like, when is she going to find out? When is she going to find out? And the way that the characters' emotional arcs are not always jammed into each other because they are not in service of the plot.

48:07Andy Greenwald:And not to compare and contrast because they are very different shows with very different goals. But I think one of the things we were bumping on with Margot's Got Money Troubles is that any interiority of characters' lives or emotional state was so clearly created to be serviced by someone else's to advance the story of healing and unconventional family structure and it's plot, plot, plot. Yeah. This allows us to have that moment unsaid about how Josh literally leveraged her future over his own concerns by potentially blackmailing her back over medical care. And in, I believe it's the previous episode, there's that absolutely incredible sequence in which Carrie Mulligan's character wearing a red light face mask is trying to, trying to follow up on an assignation with an old flame.

48:56Andy Greenwald:And then he begs off and then she immediately Googles and sees on Daily Mail that he's seeing someone else. And she just starts laughing slash crying maniacally and then chases a plan B pillow with a glass of red wine. So, bravo. This is cinema. And I love it. I do have to ask, if anything cut close to home to you, I mean, I know that we've probably all been to a hot ship show or two in our lives. Have you ever gotten mad at someone for getting COVID at Mezcal night? That seems CR coded to me. Getting mad at somebody for having COVID? No, just like... I let a British guy cough into my mouth. That's how I got COVID the first time.

49:33I mean, it is what it is. I was so good. I had the fucking Johnson and Johnson. Nobody was touching me for a minute. And then I go to England for the first time and some guy comes up to me after a live show. He goes, mate! And then just starts yelling at me about Crystal Palace, like into my larynx. And I was like, that's it. I had the worst fucking flight anyone in America has ever had coming back. I'm really sorry now in retrospect because I was COVID positive. I didn't find it out until I got to LAX because they had those cool tests. And I was like, that's definitive proof. That's a funny story.

50:09That the novel coronavirus rampages through my mind.

50:12Andy Greenwald:Despite the best efforts of Woody Johnson's vaccine. What was the question? So no, I don't give a shit about that. And I had some Mezcal nights with you, brother. And if I had gotten the big 19 from it, so be it. All right. So what if I didn't mess up Mezcal night, but let's make it beef season two specific. What if I, what if. Your Mezcal nights were great. Thanks, man. Remember that Mezcal mixtape we used to get? Yeah, little tasting flights we would do. Getting tobacco here. And then be like, oh, it's almost 11 p.m. Is that bubble gum? The funny thing was like, it would be, you'd serve it and it would be like, are you tasting the bubble gum?

50:43And I am, I am tasting gasoline. This is fucking fire water, dude.

50:48Andy Greenwald:So I'm just staring at you, seeing if you're picking up the subtle notes of like saddle leather and regret. Yeah. Baked into each glass. On Beef Season 2, though, Ashley's COVID, not Ashley. Lindsay. Lindsay's COVID diagnosis keeps her husband from seeing Top Gun Maverick in the theater. It was Bullet Train. Oh, no, it was right. It's Top Gun Maverick. You're right. That's a very great fight. It's very Los Feliz Coded. It's also just a fight that like the way they're like, this is the problem with fighting with you is that you like completely misremember things like. Yeah. It's just a very, very accurate depiction of long term relationship fighting.

51:28Andy Greenwald:And to Oscar Isaac's credit, his best moments on the show so far are the fights. And there's a moment when she's like, I've caught you in an egregious lie. The lie is whether or not she approved a doorstop that he had sourced on Amazon. Oh, she's like, I'm going to go look this up on Amazon, right? Yes. And she's like, you absolute idiot. And his face is the most alive that it is in the entire series. But speaking of their kind of chemistry, it's like when he, and I've seen this pointed out online, so I don't want to pretend like this is my blind observation here. The moment where he breaks into a British accent to mock her, she breaks a little bit or maybe doesn't, but she certainly has this moment of nervous laughter.

52:12And I'm like, you could do that a million times and may not get that reaction. and like, you know, let's see Anne Hathaway and Jake Gyllenhaal do that. That's all I got to say. They can, well,

52:20Andy Greenwald:her British accent's quite good. Right. Canonically. If she was playing Lindsay. I did want to ask you because I think it comes out more in the final episodes, which we can talk about next week. Yeah. But the international intrigue, the Dr. Kim, Chairwoman, Park part,

52:39where did you kind of, how do you feel about that additional sort of three to four characters and a huge other swath of plot being laid on.

52:48Andy Greenwald:Well, there's two things. One, when you are this tightly focused on the emotional lives of characters that I'm interested in, add more plot. The plot becomes secondary to that. The plot becomes the scaffolding of the roller coaster that the people I'm paying attention to are riding on. And if there's an extra loop in there, it's probably better for the characters. That's generally my approach to stuff. When it's working, I only note that stuff being preposterous or outlandish if I'm not bought in. if I'm bought in I'm on the ride two something that I really appreciate about the series again I hope we get a chance I've never I'm calling him Sonny like I've met him never met him would love to talk to him about this show come back on the watch brother this is a show that clearly is fueled by someone's interests that he's interested in things he's interested in exploring dynamics and has some unique perspective to bring to these dynamics and so there's a scene when they talk about there's whoosh the tennis pro brought in from Seoul and when he and Lindsay are talking about things that Dr.

53:48Kim can do to change how she looks

53:50Andy Greenwald:or improve subtle things or even the way the country club wives talk about going to Korea and what Korea can do. So this idea of Korean culture, Korean skincare, Korean beauty standards being folded into the batter of upper class California life, that's pretty real. I was curious whether or not there were elements of K-drama that influence the plotting and the way that this is playing out. I mean, obviously, K-drama is a blanket term for a lot of different kinds of storytelling, but I was reading a little bit about it. I can't say that I've watched a ton of it. Yeah. But I was curious whether or not there were hallmarks.

54:28This would be a good thing to talk to Sonny about because I wonder whether or not there's an influence there in terms of the way the plot almost yes-ands into... Yeah. Like into the stratosphere.

54:42Andy Greenwald:But I think that works. I think that'd be very interesting to find out because that's not a genre of show that I'm particularly familiar with. But what it does in practice with this season of television is that it raises the ceiling. The possibilities for the Josh and the two couples skirmishes are limited if they are just bound by the economic and societal limitations of those two characters. You raise the roof when you put in William Fickner's character who can just put people on planes and just give them advice and make things, A, make the people who are higher, which is Josh and Lindsay, make them want something.

55:27Andy Greenwald:And then you bring in something on top of that. Everybody always wants something. That's the great thing. And you put people on top of that, then suddenly the embezzlement or the blackmail can go higher. The mistakes can get bigger, which works for what the show, to me, works for what the show does. And then when you put two, one Oscar winning, certainly two Oscar caliber actors, I would have to imagine having fun playing these parts, playing these parts with each other as a married couple which is not something I think they probably, I don't know if they've ever acted together before but I doubt they've played that.

55:56Andy Greenwald:It's awesome. I mean, Song Kang Ho is like a leading man writ large. And he is having fun playing a character part. And that is such a luxury on a show like this. we'll wrap up Beef Monday with Euphoria how about that you thought you were like guess what this podcast is vegan now but nope we love Beef I just was all I did was like pass along like I guess I shouldn't do the news you know what I mean like I just was like hey you know what I've seen some mixed reviews of this show you know it's like even the greats can be swayed by misinformation campaigns or honeypots it's the first time it's ever happened to me I know but Eric Swalwell said the same you know what I mean so I ain't right I'm just saying, not for what brought him down, but he was involved with a Chinese asset.

56:39That never got proven, right?

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59:03Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbounce.lily.com. Look about it. I want to talk to you about Top Chef instead.

59:13Andy Greenwald:It would be incredible if... I don't know if we have special Top Chefs later. If litigious Swalwell Stans took down our podcast because of just one straight... Get one. I don't really want to talk about the food. Mmm. Really. I mean, I've been to Cracker Barrel and I liked it. This episode is a grueling experience for the chefs. This is Monday's episode of Top Chef, obviously. They have to make a Cracker Barrel-esque item from Cracker Barrel's all-day menu. They get put into breakfast, lunch, and dinner assignments. But it seems like it was a difficult challenge. Even our boy Lawrence just undercooked a bunch of chicken tenders, which he didn't know was possible.

59:52Andy Greenwald:Yeah, that nice pink in the middle. that was hardcore the way Kristen was like no she was just like this is not safe to be eating do you believe in bringing chicken tenders up to an appropriate temperature before serving? as a parent of children yes I do you also spend a lot of time in England and they get chickens everywhere there of all different internal temps come on man when we watch British food content creators the chicken and then I'm just going to dab that the salmonella off the cutting board before I put all my veg on it. The chickens look healthier. Yeah, they are yellow. I'll say that.

1:00:29I'll say that for them. They do this Cracker Barrel challenge. That's the quick fire. The elimination begins essentially immediately in the studio where all the chefs, much to their own chagrin, have to make dessert because it's always funny. There's like one or two people who are like, yeah, I was a pastry chef, but a lot of them fucking hate dessert and making it. And it is going to be judged not by Tom and Kristen and Gail, but by Top Chef fans who live in Charlotte.

1:00:54Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I was going to say, up to that point, I was like, hello, where was the call? Yeah. But. And honestly, those fans were delightful and it, there was like a nice experience of like what it must be like, you know, when Tom is like, this is shit. And like somebody who doesn't eat that food all the time is like, God damn, that's like the best dessert I've ever had. These, these desserts were supposed to mirror several classics, you know. that Queen Charlotte would have enjoyed. Yeah, Melissa Benoist, the actress who's on a Netflix show that's set in North Carolina. I can't remember. She played Supergirl, and she's a huge fan of Top Chef.

1:01:32That was nice, yeah. She seemed delightful. Yada, yada. Anthony winds up winning the elimination challenge. It's pretty close to see who goes home, and also the chefs, I don't think the judges elected Anthony. I think he won based on a vote, right?

1:01:47Andy Greenwald:No, the crowd vote... Oh, it's for the three top. Yeah, and I think the crowd vote had a sway in the final decision-making, or maybe you're right, maybe they had a voice. Okay. Don't we all? And the more important thing is the elimination. Dwayne's pretty close to getting cut, I think, because she basically picked a caramel cake. Caramel cake, which looked quite nice. And made something completely different. And then just poured brown caramel foam on top of it. Yes, and they were pretty savage about twins, but this is the age-old top chef. Are they really only judging these people based on the dish they have in front of them, or does your cumulative kind of expertise or skill go into it?

1:02:33I usually would say it's impossible not to think of that, and everything somebody's cooked up until that moment, but Rhoda is a good example of somebody who I thought was running away with it and then went home, or not home, went to Last Shed's Kitchen. Anyway, Dwayne doesn't go home, Justin does. After the elimination, it's announced that Restaurant Wars is next.

1:02:55Andy Greenwald:As it always is when they're eight chefs. And while this is happening, Jennifer, who is Justin's partner in life and also on the show with him, a contestant with him, Jennifer, who has been experiencing some nerve pain in her left arm or in her arm, now she's experiencing discomfort or some temporary paralysis in her face. It looked like she was... Bell's palsy. Okay. This is not like, I'm not breaking HIPAA. Like they, she's posted on Instagram. Okay. So she's, but she had an attack of, I think for the first time in her like Bell's palsy, which is quite scary. Yes. And treatable. And Joel Embiid had that.

1:03:26Exactly. So it looks like Jennifer is now broken the kind of bear, like seal on like, you need to go get medical attention and leave the show. Here's where I want to get into it with you.

1:03:39Andy Greenwald:Okay. Cause I want to get into it when the episode started. So I'm, I'm raring to go, but I'm sorry. I was just giving people a recap of what was happening. I wasn't trying to. Because I think, as you should have, the end of the episode shenanigans that led into Last Chance Kitchen is about who actually has been eliminated and who will be rejoining the show. So for people who forget, Seeger was eliminated last week and did not go to Last Chance Kitchen. And when Last Chance Kitchen started, Tom was like, this is very uncommon. And we will explain at the start of next week's episode, which they did not.

1:04:11And then Jennifer goes home for a medical at the end of this episode, and her partner Justin has been sent to Last Chance Kitchen, but is given the opportunity to simply go back into the show. As the most recently eliminated show. And replace Jennifer, and he turns that down to go be with Jennifer, but then does do Last Chance Kitchen eventually.

1:04:32Andy Greenwald:So this reinforces something that has been explained, I think, or at least alluded to. Last Chance Kitchen shoots later. Two days later in this case. So Justin had time to, having withdrawn from the competition, see that she was not having something more extreme. You know, there was worry she was having a stroke or something. She's been diagnosed. She's safe. And she encourages him to give it another shot and to go into Last Chance Kitchen, which he does briefly. Yes. And loses to Rhoda. And Rhoda is not then sent back into the competition. So I suppose that the suggestion is that Seager is going to come back next week.

1:05:06Andy Greenwald:This has not been confirmed, but this is obvious. And they're playing very coy with it in ways that are kind of annoying. I don't think it's good television. I don't either. And I would say it's particularly not good television because this was a catastrophically bad episode of Top Chef across the board because it did three of my least favorite things that the show seems to inevitably have to do at some point during a season, maybe for budgetary reasons. Got the big three. Big three of Top Chef no-nos. Okay, let me guess one. Yeah. A corporate tie-in. A absolutely wedged in nonsensical corporate tie-in that Cracker Barrel, nice restaurant to go to when you're on a road trip, no problem.

1:05:35Andy Greenwald:But to have Kristen be like, we all know and love their famous crispy-edged pancakes. Which camera? No, we don't. We don't all know that. Thank you. Go on. Two. Making them do back-to-backs. Nope. Making them... You sound like Joel Embiid. He hates back-to-backs. Well, the fucking Bell's policy came from somewhere. Just saying. And how about them never leaving the studio? Ding. Absolutely ridiculous. Especially when Last Chance Kitchen is there, too. And the attempts to make it classy and hang different lights and then bring normals in to taste their food to the entire episode feels claustrophobic and detached from any actual reality or presence.

1:06:13I will give them some grace here

1:06:16Andy Greenwald:because last year when it was Top Chef Canada and it was like Top Chef Warehouse in Canada, or so we're told, Whole Foods in Canada, was really, really egregious. If you have to do one of these to then pay for or save money for some larger field studies later, okay. Yeah. But yeah, that was two. What's number three? Desserts. I don't care about desserts. Chefs don't care about... No, but I also think that it's not good television when two-thirds of the contestants are like, thank you for asking me to do something I don't like doing and I'm not particularly good at. Yeah. That's not very compelling.

1:06:50You should know that Andy is the kind of guy who sends me Instagrams of steamed fish and is like, I am Paul Atreides now. This is my dream in life is to eat this.

1:07:01Andy Greenwald:Very, very clean. Very clean fish. I've also ordered cheese for dessert. so like let's you know let's be honest about who we are here i'm not saying i don't i can even like a dessert but if they don't like it you know what i like though a fucking ice cream cone you know like let's just be honest like i kind of like i don't it doesn't need to be too fancy i like a bread pudding baking is challenging i even like baking great british baking show i enjoy as well but baking primarily is science and ratios and not like wild improvisation which some of these chefs maybe are more talented at and i also think that like the palate fatigue of all these people just just shoveling in the sugar makes for kind of a muddled judging experience.

1:07:39Yeah, I have to imagine that that is difficult.

1:07:41Andy Greenwald:I still think this has been a strong season editorially and vibes-wise, certainly, but I am very unimpressed with the contestants so far. Unless the Rhoda elimination really was, like, accidentally axing your main character too early and she will rise triumphant from the underworld like Norpheus, who didn't look backwards, I don't really think that there is a maybe someone will emerge sometimes people go on a heater later I think Anthony and Lawrence are clearly the two best chefs and like they are kind of being treated as like supporting characters to the twins Jennifer and Justin Dwayne's got a lot of camera time I think these are very charming people sure, Oscar and the show it struggles year to year I mean it only can rise as high as the contestants raise it and Tristan was another Tristan and Buddha are generational like in the sense of like what they were bringing point of view yeah we've had wire to wire guys a couple of seasons in a row now and guys that you know not in a row but we've had we've had them guys who elevate everyone else because if there's a front runner people are chasing or trying to get more experimental and like this season we seem to have a lot of just fine folks yes whose highs are not nearly as high so that all of that was diminishing the experience it was a weak episode but then to have it to kind of have it both ways and be like, there's an exciting mystery to come.

1:09:03Andy Greenwald:We've never had this happen before. I mean, really, it's just a bummer that one of your contestants had a health issue and you have to bring back someone. I just don't under... I think that Survivor is just very communicative about, like, this person needs to go home and here's what's going to happen and here's this and here's that. Like, there's a lot of over-explaining. And I don't understand why they couldn't have done something in the edit to be like... The reason Seeger is not in Last Chance Kitchen is because Last Chance Kitchen shoots several days after the actual competition shoots on any given moment.

1:09:36And Seager, we were aware that Jennifer was not going to be able to finish the competition. But I guess my...

1:09:44Andy Greenwald:Well, the reason is because it would have spoiled the Justin element. Yes, but they gave Jennifer this warning that she was going to be eliminated if she missed any more quick fires or any other elements of the show. to me that kind of indicated that they did not think that she was going to be on the show long term i it's totally fine i didn't want them to kick her off in any way but there's something strange about like where has seeker been now for like three days he's in the stew room he's just waiting focused drinking josh wines right so uh and we got an email uh from a friend of seeker's or for from a former colleague of seeker's that was like written in the first person just not that feeling like the show is not capturing his personality, you know, and that I'll be interested to see what happens if he is back next week.

1:10:27Andy Greenwald:Do you think we'll have a new Seeger when he comes back? Humble, rested, ready. Well, I mean, there's an element of that as well where it's like, did this guy get to like go home and conceptualize recipes for three days while everybody else is doing back-to-back Cracker Barrel dessert challenges? Can I throw something out there? Yeah. It's too soon to go back to an All-Stars season. You want it. I think we might be approaching the time they've done this a few other times where there have been some returning favorites who get another chance Kristen guarantees Jennifer can return whatever she wants sure although I you know she seems very talented but there was I can't like when Justin was talking about her and actually his behavior towards her and his lightened demeanor in Last Chance Kitchen when he was freed of the stress of how she was doing was very touching and I think really appropriate and they seem like they have a good relationship but he's like she was crushing this competition before this happened and I did not see evidence of that.

1:11:20Andy Greenwald:Well, when does her arm get screwed up? Like the second episode, right? It's less her opportunity to excel, though maybe she will when she comes back. It's that there have been years when they have sort of just given a little, little goose to it a little bit by bringing back some like almost whirs and also rands just to give it a little more verve. And I think maybe we're headed back to that. How would you have done, first of all, we're available. That email address is out there to come taste things, preferably not a dessert challenge in the beautiful state of North Carolina. I would have loved to have done the pepper judging.

1:11:55What? It would have been really interesting.

1:11:57Andy Greenwald:You, hold on, we might have to switch the lights for this. You wanted to be in the 120 degree greenhouse eating a progressive meal of catastrophically hot peppers? Like, do you want me to go judge Cracker Barrel food? Like, I want to go experience something that I'll never experience otherwise. I'm going to go on the right, I also would like to have new experiences. I would like to have... No, you don't. You want to have the clean white fish challenge. Delicious. I'm just saying, I don't want to experience all the new things still awaiting me on camera. Do you know what I mean? Oh, I'm not worried about that.

1:12:28I have a pretty good constitution when it comes to that stuff.

1:12:30Andy Greenwald:How would you do on Hot Ones? I've talked about this before. I am... No one can hit me when it comes to Szechuan spice. I didn't know this about you. Szechuan, like... The numbing spice. I'll fucking die eating that stuff. like really fly by jing extra fucking spicy on everything but numbing spice is different than like the carolina reaper spice i know i'm saying like i have a different relationship to different kinds of spices the reapers i never ate danny chow ate one in front of me at grantland once and i thought he was gonna have a fucking heart attack um i i find i just i'd love to know i I haven't really dipped my toe into that.

1:13:14Andy Greenwald:This is what keeps you young and makes me quite old. You know, your willingness. To try new things. Yeah. But you, I think, I think that, I just have like a much more like kind of like adventurous palate, I think. You know more what you like. No, I like to try almost anything, but I am not a fan of extremity for extremity's sake. In television or in spice. I think that the Szechuan stuff opened up a new dimension of like how I like to eat food. Do you like. Which is leaking everywhere. That's the thing. When your ears start ringing and you're a little bit in this reality, but also Desmond from Lost and experiencing parts of your childhood at the same time.

1:13:49Daniel Faraday is whispering to me. Do you want to do any sports before we go for After Dark?

1:13:55Andy Greenwald:Yeah, where are you at? It's draft day. Before we get to draft day. I want to ask you how many games in a row the Flyers have to win before you pay attention. It's interesting that they are having a moment right now. On the precipice of sweeping the Pittsburgh Penguins. First of all, Pittsburgh is a friend to us. Sure. They've given us the pit. They've given us... Bain. Bain. Bain's greatest moment. They should have a plaque there. Sandwiches with french fries in them. Great town. This year alone, I've been on the record as saying something true, which was, I don't think it was controversial, but it wasn't my greatest moment, where I said the impediment to me watching Heated Rivalry wasn't the full frontal sex scenes.

1:14:35Andy Greenwald:It was ice hockey. I am so deeply uninterested in ice hockey. I haven't watched your beloved Shorzy. No. I'm not a hockey guy. Playoff hockey, there's nothing like it. That's what everyone says. There's just nothing like it. Find a new slant. The only argument I've ever heard anyone make for hockey is playoff hockey. It's just fucking intense. There's nothing like it. This guy Trippett on the Flyers is getting his head beaten in at the end of game two. Yeah. And they just fucked him up in game three. Like, they came back 5-2. It was just like... How many rounds of playoffs await? This is the first round.

1:15:13Multiple.

1:15:14Andy Greenwald:Okay. So I'll hit you up if we make it to, like, the conference finals. How about that? I mean, I am rooting for the Flyers. Thanks. Above all other teams. And they're also, like, the thing you might like about them, young guys just seem to like each other. That's what draws me to most things. Weirdly, I like beef, which is not about young guys liking each other. As far as the Sixers go... That was pretty cool. Not getting my hopes up, but yes, that was very cool. My trademark luck didn't turn that game. Which is you checking in on it? I thought by checking in on it, it would cause the entire team to suffer Bell's palsy.

1:15:49My question I have about draft day is what are you going to do with all your time when draft is over?

1:15:54Andy Greenwald:First of all, unlike Mike Vrabel, I'm not taking off day three of the draft to pursue my mental health. I will be locked in across all three days. What's nice about the draft for me... Honestly, the funniest thing anyone's ever done has been like, I'm going to go into counseling after the first round. After the first two rounds. That shows respect for all involved here. Can you imagine like how that conversation with his wife went where he was like, I definitely need to go see a professional after I make four draft picks. Yes, after I spend time with the fellas. Like I definitely would schedule all things for after the NFL season.

1:16:30We're just going to go to Sedona after that to just kind of like.

1:16:32Andy Greenwald:Rebuild. Yeah, debrief on the whole thing. Yeah, that's right. Me and Elliot Wolfe. We'll bring the whiteboard. No, what's your next obsession after the draft? You don't understand. The thing about the draft that I like so much is that after the draft, we come away with, you know, four to eight new characters in my life who actually have no accomplishments in Midnight Green or Kelly Green, as the case may be. Thus, I can then spend the next three or four months cleanly fantasizing about them all becoming Hall of Fame players and getting along. That will help me sleep. And driving well. That will, yes.

1:17:07Andy Greenwald:Yes. I shouldn't have said that. I always, well, or Big Dom will drive them. That's what I thrive on. That's my preferred mode of sports. I'm beginning to think that I'm an off-season warrior. Oh, I definitely think you are. Have you always thought that? Yes. Not in a bad way, but I think that this is where you thrive, is in narratives. Yes. And in media, but not necessarily in game tape. And in like parasocial friendship projecting. Yes, that's fine. of like, well, you're all in the same draft class, fellas. And then the Instagram mods for like Philadelphia Eagles will post them of like showing up at the Novocare complex.

1:17:42Andy Greenwald:And I'll be like, look at that. They fit right in. We should do a bit of you doing the Carey Mulligan thing from Beef, like wearing a red light mask and like flipping through. And just me re-watching when Howie Roseman called Jalex Hunt and he said, what's up, big pimpin'? But I'm crying because there have been nights like that. Here's something. Here's something you can guarantee. if you ever need my attention, anyone in the, anywhere in the world, you people I know, strangers, just go near me and play the video of how we drafted Cooper to Gene. It's like three minutes cut together to make it seem like it was fait accompli.

1:18:16Andy Greenwald:You know, it was all easy. If that auto plays in any moment of my life. It's like you're taking a bump. It's like, I'm just, I, it's like you, you at Hot Pot. I dissociate completely and I live only in that reality. It's been wonderful talking with you today. I really did enjoy talking about beef with you. It was good. See? Yeah. You know, the only thing that beef was lacking, chili crisp. Seriously. Sarah, Kaya, Kai, thank you so much for producing and cutting and directing and lighting and making sure that we put our best foot forward. Well, I think our wardrobe person took the day off. On Monday, we're going to talk about Euphoria, episode three.

1:19:01Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And we're going to talk about maybe the last few episodes of Beef and maybe there's some other stuff to chat about. Well, we actually made a blood oath that we would check out the Audacity at some point. Yes. So we should probably do that. I'm going to Ojai this weekend, so. Yeah, boots on the ground reporting. I know. I'll get to the bottom of Burberry. Would you begin Monday's show with kind of like a verbal column in the style of Thomas Friedman in the New York Times about taking a cab ride and what you observed? In this Ohio farm-to-table restaurant. Yeah. People are wondering what...

1:19:33You could do it. Thanks, everybody, for listening and watching. We'll talk to you guys on Monday.