‘Beef’ Season 2 With Creator Lee Sung Jin. Plus, ‘Euphoria’ Season 3, Episode 3 and ‘House of the Dragon’ S3 Teaser.

28:27I'm not trying to walk away from this project because I think that what, first of all, the headline remains what you've said each week, it's not boring. I did find some of the connective story tissue of this episode boring, but that's on me. I didn't watch the show. I think that there is something to be said about something that is so extreme in its stylistic choices and in its points of view and what interests it collectively, although when we say that, we pretty much mean Sam Levinson, that it is not like other things on TV. We may never get something like this again with this level of celebrity engaged in something that, you know, that they were contractually obligated to be a part of years ago.

29:08I'm still on, like, I don't think people did this against their work. No, no, no, I don't mean to say that, but you don't get, we've never had anything like this before. Yeah. And it is a fascinating, if nothing else, and I think it is more than this, it will be a fascinating artifact of this era in which TV takes so long to make and the logistics are so challenging that you end up with a third season that is essentially both a new first season and also just a very bizarre Sliding Doors digression season based on what people are passionate about at the time they finally got the schedules aligned and the budget locked.

29:41Yeah, I'll just, I mean, like, even on an episode like this where it didn't quite hang together as much for me or maybe it was like a little bit of a letdown because I wanted more fireworks between the main cast in one place. Maddie walking back to her sad apartment after a day in like the opulent Calabasas dream world. For better or for worse, the saran wrap scene, Rue selling guns, and the whole Laurie, like, paladin situation at the end. It was just like, those are like four standout moments that honestly, like, on a bad episode, Euphoria for me still has like a couple of moments that are better than anything else I'm watching.

30:19So I give it a lot of leeway. Do you, do you have a particular reaction to, and now I'm just trying to do the, I'm trying to do the work of someone who had watched the show, but there was a scene when Rue's driving when she's on the phone with the character who's an actor passed away, right? That's correct? I'm curious to see how much, I know that honoring Angus's memory was a very significant motivational thing for Sam Levinson in making this season entirely, at least in the interviews that I've read with him. And I am curious to see how much he makes Fez a character, not that I think he's going to show up in any kind of way, but that, the idea that he is going to try and escape prison now is much different than, oh, we just hear about him in the background a bit.

31:06Well, also the genesis of the show, right, is both in terms of the background of what attracted Sam to the storyline and then also the storyline that's the, like the beating heart of the first two seasons is an addiction story, right? And a cast member passed away from an accidental drug overdose. So you wonder if there's a, if it's inspired, if they were motivated to make it in his honor, I wonder what the thematic on-screen response to that event might be. And I think if, as seen in the trailers, if Coleman Domingo's character comes back into the fold, I'm sure that will be a factor. We should wrap up Euphoria there.

31:43I look forward to talking about it with you next week. Kaya, what's your flower budget? Has it fluctuated at all in the last few weeks?

31:53I will say that I know I'm pretty badly wedding-pilled at this point because I saw all those flowers and I was like, I think that makes sense for 50K. I mean, it was very lovely. Do you think you'll get that kind of pep talk on your walk down the aisle? Like Cassie got? I can only hope, yeah. I have to say that this is a sidebar that I did want to bring up on this show one way or another, that I think it's incredible that it took the release of the Michael Jackson biopic for one of the most brilliant pieces of comedy of the last few years to finally be discovered by the mainstream, which is John Mulaney interviewing Langston Kerman as Bubbles from last year's Everybody's Live with John Mulaney.

32:32Talk to me. Talk to me. Those of us who were, we were with Bubbles shooting in the gym, first of all. We've known how funny that is. But I only want to bring it up because it's a masterpiece. And the first shot of the ice sculpture I did think was Michael and Bubbles. Right. Which I think was intentional. But I did think that it was John Landis also was drinking the toilet water. I mean, Sidney Sweetie being like, I look fat in this ice sculpture and him being like, you'll look better as it melts. And she's like, but I don't want my boobs to melt. It's like, where else are you going to get that?

33:03You know? No, it's like the old... For all mankind? Like, show me the way. It's from Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks to that. You know what I mean? It's just the way comedy's gone. I did think for a second, by the way, just in terms of canon, that there was a moment when Sidney Sweeney, when Cassie's yelling at Nate and pops him in the eye with the champagne bottle that Nate Jacobs was going to be like, Lord, forgive me. It's time to go back to the old me. I thought that too because you planted that seed. Then he was just a really, really sweet to her and then he got his toe cut off. When we talk about it next week, we should probably, I assume there'll be more about them in their happily married life that began.

33:35Maybe I'll do a lore download for you next week. That might be my job for next week. Because I don't want to do another week. I don't have enough going on. That's right. Well, the draft's over. My schedule's clear. I don't get those characters. I don't understand and I don't understand the dynamic. So maybe now that he has to get Nas' money, it'll, you know. You get the characters on beef. Yeah, Beef Season 2, which is a show we... Is this your segue? We loved, yes. And I don't want to belabor it. We can maybe touch, if we want to talk a little bit more broadly about the season, we can hit it on Thursday.

34:09So we want to get into our interview with Sonny Lee, which went on for about 45, 50 minutes and was wonderful. He talked a little bit about his writing process, his pitching process, which I thought was very interesting, and everything about casting Beef Season 2 with Kaylee Spaney and Charles Melton and Oscar Isaac and Carey Mulligan, the themes he was looking to discover, some stories from set. Really, really exciting to talk to him. He's an awesome interview subject. And then some X-Men. And some X-Men. So let's get into our interview with Sonny, and we will be back on Thursday for, I would imagine, Top Chef Restaurant Wars.

34:45Yeah. We hear you, everybody, asking us to watch America's Culinary Cup. Perhaps one day. but I have only so much time in the day for cooking shows. Really? What about you? I too only have so much time in the day for cooking shows. I'm with you, but I have not watched it yet. And I'm sure there's some other stuff I'm just forgetting right now. So that's a hell of a tease. Thank you to Kai, Kaya, and Sarah for shooting with us today. And we'll be back on Thursday. Enjoy this interview. Snoring? Gasping during sleep? Feeling fatigued? Ask your doctor about ZepBound Terzepatide, The first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity.

35:27ZetBound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced-calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. ZetBound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. Z-Bound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Z-Bound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pins or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2.

36:07Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Z-Bound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking ZipBound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor.

36:37Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit ZipBound.lily.com. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list, not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com, enter your license plate or VIN, and get a real offer down to the penny. No back and forth, no surprises, just an experience you can trust. Like your offer? Accept it. Schedule a pickup, and we'll come to you with a check in hand. Your car, your timeline, your terms. Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo.

37:17That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a two percenter. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply. Thank you. Sonny, thank you so much for joining The Watch again, man. It's great to see you, and congratulations on a fantastic season of beef. This is the fastest ever turnaround from loving a show to having the creator.

37:54So thank you for that. No, I was waiting right on that. I really appreciate it. I was like, they like it? I wanted to ask you a little bit. I don't know if you think about things in these terms, but I was trying to articulate a bunch of my feelings about the show, and one of the ways I usually do that is try to describe genre. and uh i came up with dark screwball for for the season of beef and i was curious if you would ever identified a genre or a micro genre for the season for yourself that maybe helped you find the tone um yeah the tone's hard on this one yeah it's like uh i came up with a formula season one that i just kind of did as a joke but it's weirdly stuck for everybody or i call it like 35 percent soprano slash early PTA comedy where you're laughing at the broken psychology of people plus 35 % like Netflix bingeability slash White Lotus water cooler moments plus 30 % Hirokozakorayeda Ingmar Bergman warm melancholic pathos.

38:58Which percentage of those percentages do you share with Netflix? Because I felt them lean in in the middle. I felt them lean in. Did you say bingeability? They weirdly, like, I think part of the reason I came up with the formula is to help them, like, understand the show. Yeah, yeah. Because it's, like, so hard, season one, especially, to take what's in here and, like, get people to get on board. And oddly, that formula, like, worked for them. They were like, okay, like, as long as it's, like, balanced like that. And Bella's like, more Coriata. I'm so sorry. I don't think there was a Norwegian filmmaker named Bingeability.

39:39Oh, my God. And you could just reference, you know, it's just like, oh, of course, you know, it'll be very Bingeability. And it's like, yeah, okay, well, blank check. Yeah, weirdly, they have been, I think it's like, I try to treat the conversation with networks like just always explaining the why, you know, instead of like digging my heels or anything. like I remember one time and I hope it's okay that I share this and if not I'm sorry Netflix but they I think it was season one like episode three we were at an impasse like they just were like not like wanting to do the show anymore and and I like sent them a I think it was like a TED talk on this concept called the beholder share it's like an art history term about like why paintings like great paintings offer a lot of share to the eye of the beholder and i like explain to them like if a bed bath and beyond painting like people don't like because it's like this is a beach and there's no participation from the audience right and whereas mona lisa like you have to interpret it and wonder why she's smiling is she smiling even and like we had the whole like one hour zoom talking about this concept and by the end of it they're like okay no like we get it now and so they're like yeah we see what you're trying to do in episode three like in terms of like the beholder share thing maybe like here's a little bit too confusing for us but if you're saying that the audience wants to participate great so like I find that like talking like overly talking through everything gets me through some of these you're my hero that's incredible now genuinely do you think like what percentage because you're good at fractions do you think they were like this really moved me and changed my perspective about television versus he sent me a 55-minute video to watch.

41:25I'm just going to let him make the show. You don't have to name names, but I'm just wondering if it's... I think it's probably both. It's like a combination of all the things. I mean, that's why my pitches to networks are so involved with... I went to UPenn. I was supposed to be an investment banker, so PowerPoint is actually my true medium. I'd say even more than television. and uh like i have these very involved like 50 minute pitches where i'm like photoshopping like the actors into existing frames from other movies and some of it almost is animated and there's like music and i like literally go through the beats of the pilot with score and then i even like have title cards in powerpoint that like i cut to as like to punctuate a pitch and i do all that to just not leave anything to anyone's imagination.

42:19Do you feel like that is actually a creative act for you? Like, do you feel like that's where the sort of creative ball starts rolling downhill? Totally. Yeah. And like, weirdly, I like thrive in that PowerPoint media. It's downhill from there. It's all downhill from there. Yeah. So season two, which again, I just think is really, really amazing. I loved watching it. And I especially loved the way you built on what was season one and changed some things, slowed some things down, worked the dials a little bit to communicate, I think, better what the series of beef, now that it's potentially ongoing, is to you.

42:54One of the biggest things was clearly that season one is, you know, incredibly escalating conflict between the two leads, and everything spins from that. This season not only has two couples, but I thought very brilliantly made plain over time that it's not just about a beef or a conflict between two people but about uh groups of people and ultimately about people and class and like a larger system yeah um how many different versions of a story did you have to run through to figure out the best canvas for that idea oh a lot uh i think episode one had 16 drafts 16 network drafts and so that's not even like including your stuff yeah yeah and uh yeah it was just uh finding the right shape is so hard you know um i think what i was running up against to up against was um just i kept feeling like because there are versions of this show where the beef started more overtly like got to probably the blackmail way sooner and um i just found that when it was more overt that the story math after that started to become really similar to season one right um and there's ways to like offset it once you get deeper in but like just that initial domino i was like oh i just energetically have done this and um you know i just want to i don't like repeating myself and i just think about my favorite musicians and bands and think about sophomore album compared to debut album when they're like too similar you just start to like lose interest a little bit you know like i mean i i love kings of leon but you know that's kind of why i like fell off a little bit we have a long-term beef with them on this one that's fine this is the inciting incident for our season great let's get after it let's do it oh kings of leon what's going on um no but like you look at a band like radiohead that's the holy grail to go from Pablo Honey, Ben's, OK Computer to Kid A.

44:58It's like insane. Yes. And so we kept talking about like in prep and within the writer's room, like are we doing like, do we want to go from like Ben's to OK Computer or are we talking OK Computer to Kid A? And so we're trying to like figure out the right level of swing that we want to take. And that's why we went through so many drafts is, okay, what started to energetically feel refreshing to us, so that it feels like we're doing new territory. What was the thing, if you can pinpoint one or two, that felt exciting and fresh as a new starting point for the season? I think it was sort of the slower burn felt really nice to me.

45:41And actually, something that really clicked in in the edit was also the cold open. We had so many versions of how to start that first episode. One was starting completely in the older couple's perspective. and staying with them for a longer time. There was one version where we did younger couples perspective. So we just see the fight from their eyes. And then it wasn't until Josh was deleting security cam footage that we saw the fight through the older couple's eyes. And it was like this kind of like surreal thing where he was like looking through the footage and you saw the fight happening behind him.

46:18And, you know, that was cool. Like from a filmmaking standpoint, like Jake and I were getting excited about doing that but then just it was it just felt strange to keep these perspectives separate what felt more propulsive was that intercutting of like here's here's this naive young couple here this is fighting and it just felt these two trains that clearly were going to collide and i was like oh that's that's the show is just constantly like playing with how much these these two couples are colliding or not colliding that other version sounds a little moon-shaped it's like a little cerebral issue yes yeah no you're not there yet um did you feel like there was anything energizing or um inspiring about changing the topography of california that you were covering because obviously it's more of a southern california it's you know broadly a southern california show but you start pushing up the central valley here and pushing up and like you know i just was in oh hi this weekend and every time i'm like i could live here i'm also like they talk a lot about spiritual cosmic vortexes here, you know, and there is an element of like, you go there and you start to immediately think about like how to improve yourself all the time.

47:31And I was curious what attracted you to the, both the Monte Vista part, but also like that, that whole area. Yeah. I think, uh, you know, for me, for whatever reason, I have a hard time just writing from nothing, you know, and I, and I, I need life in the universe to show me things. And that's just what I was experiencing. You know, uh, I just find so many of my millennial friends have either moved to Ojai or bought a place there or vacation there often. And there is this, especially for millennials, for some reason, this like idea that that is this escape Like we can clean slate and everything's going to be okay.

48:11And then Montecito, a good friend of mine, Chris, we've been friends since our 20s, like temp together, like been so poor in LA together. And then recently he came into a lot of money. Like he was number three at a company that sold to, I think PayPal for like$4 billion. And so he's a member at Montecito Club now. And I was house sitting for him. and he was like, oh, you can use my membership for a month. And I was like, how much do you pay? This is crazy. There's nothing in the world that would be worth this amount of money. And I use it for like three days. And I'm like, can I see that application for you?

48:51What was it that appealed to you? Because I think one of the other things that's so brilliant about the way you've crafted this season, every character is human, every character is fallible, and every character wants things, even if they shouldn't want them. And I think that you don't shy away from that. So maybe that also came from experience. Totally. I mean, we talked a lot in the writer's room about hedonic adaptation and just like how quickly we as humans, like just new stimulus, new environment. Like, bam, we adapt. We're such adaptable creatures. And suddenly we forget. We can't go backwards.

49:19That's Ashley. Once you fly in the front of the plane. But that was actually what I was. Ashley is the most fascinating. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Like Ashley is such a fascinating character to me because one of my questions was, do you think that even if Ashley and Austin had never come across Josh and Lindsay fighting, Ashley was always going to find something that was like a lever to like move her life along? Or was she ever going to be content just being like, I guess this is just what things are, you know? I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think, I mean, that's what's fun about the way Kaylee played that character too.

49:54And we talked about it a lot with Meena and Jake like how much we want to start her innocent and that this is like a brand new, almost like disease that she inherits from everybody else or what's innately inside of her. And where we landed, I'm so glad you asked that, is like she plays it where even in the pilot, like you feel a little bit like that is in her. You know, there's this like slight like edge to it. And even in her love for Austin, there's an anxiousness. Because you can just tell this is someone that is seeking and holding on or wanting more. And so I absolutely think even if they hadn't witnessed that, she would have found something else that she needed to hedonically adapt to.

50:42It's such a great portrait of people in love at that age where you're like, this is so cool, right? We both work at record stores. Not that I'm speaking about it. I came from a deep place. That moment where the one person wakes up and is like, so what are we going to do? What are we going to do with our lives? This is fun, but are you ever going to wear a shirt with buttons? Also, once they've seen, as they see in the beginning, once they see how Josh and Lindsay live, when you go back to their home, we're seeing it the way they're seeing it. It's a perfectly fine apartment for 20-year-olds, but then they've seen what maybe they feel they're supposed to have.

51:17Exactly. And we're watching that as well. Well, I mean, that was what was so fun about, kind of writing these younger characters as a room and we have you know younger writers in the room too but just thinking about what we used to be like and what's funny is like it feels not that long ago but then also so long ago to think about like relationships from 20s and then a funny thing that came up in the room is just this like the the question what are you thinking you know like like you used to ask that like so in love like because you genuinely wanted to know what the other person was thinking. And now it's like never said in like a, like, like, it's like, okay, what are you thinking?

51:57Like, you know? And so like, just - So you're thinking now, huh? Congratulations. Yeah. It's like the last thing you want to ask, you know? But staying on The Young Couple for a minute, because I thought Charles Melton is just like revelatory in this show. He's so good and he's so funny. And it's such a rare thing to have someone who can be self-aware and smart at being slightly dumb. I thought they were incredible. And particularly when you give him early on the line about, actually, this is all late-stage capitalism's fault. And you realize that he's read this on a Reddit board or something.

52:32Yes. And you've captured this tone that is both giving us a roadmap for what the series is going to be about, because that is what they come up against. And it does undo them all. But also, he's a little bit clownish when he says it. It's convenient to blame. Yes, exactly. That felt like a really important hinge point for the character and for the season. So much of writing Austin was looking at our own lives and how I feel like we all do that these days. Like lately I've been saying like, oh yeah, I just read. And when I say that, I'm like, no, I saw on Instagram, you know, two sentences over a stock photo.

53:09Well, where's my mind? Yeah. And so, you know, I think Austin felt like someone who truly, you know, there's, he also probably has an insecurity being like a, you know, failed athlete. And so he wants to feel useful and smart. And so he is trying to grasp at these larger concepts, but can't. And, and, but I think, I think for a lot of us, like, all the things we're grasping at are true. You know, we just don't have the means to fully understand it and to even understand why it's happening. But I love the way that Charles played Austin, too, because in the wrong hands, it could have been very like too much of a buffoon, you know, like a classic like Kimbo.

53:55And I think Charles, he injected so much more humanity into this character. He was so protective of Austin. There are often times where he was so locked in that he would make the entire crew laugh, just like destroyed on set. And then he would have to go to his trailer upset. Because it's like, are you laughing at me with me? Yeah. And he was like, I feel like everyone's laughing at me. I don't know why people are laughing at Austin. Austin means well. He's like trying. And so like now, like given some distance from the character, he'll like watch the show and laugh at himself like more than anybody else.

54:36But in the moment, he was so in Austin that he couldn't even like take the fact that he was crushing on set. Did you, I've read varying reports on this. Like, do you write for these actors specifically if possible? Like, did you write this for him with him in mind? And was that also the case? Or maybe we know it's not the case for the older couple. We could talk about that. Yeah, I try to attach actors really early on because I can't write to people in a vacuum or write characters in a vacuum. And Charles was the first piece because I knew the half-Korean arc was really important to me. And I watched May, December and was blown away like everybody else.

55:13That scene on the roof where he smokes pot, it's heartbreaking but so funny. He's so amazing in Warfare too. If you see him in Warfare, where it's mind-blowing what he's doing in beef because you're like, oh, you could be... I mean, he kind of does remind me of Brad Pitt in that way where it's like he's capable of being the punchline in a scene, but he's also capable of being a full-leading man. Yeah, he's a complete chameleon. And so I touched him really early, and we became fast friends. He likes to tell this story about on the basketball court because I was renting this house, and there was a basketball court playing basketball like every week.

55:53And he was getting these early drafts and there wasn't a lot, you know, his arc was like paced out to be what it is. And again, locked into Austin, he was kind of like upset. He's like, I'm just the side character. And he tells a story of him blocking me really badly. And that was him taking out all this frustration. What's your story? My story is that I think I won 11-4. Yeah. That was a foul. Yeah. But no, I think what's, what's great about Charles is that we, he, he just gave so much of himself to the project. Like, you know, all that time on the basketball court, I was like mentally noting all the little ways he spoke.

56:36Like Charles loves to put handles on his, like whatever he says, he'll be like, if I may say this, Sonny, my perspective is, my perspective is Sonny that I think. And so he'll like say all these handles before he gets to his point. And so I'm like, oh, that's so Austin. Yeah. And so I was just jotting down all these Charles-isms to kind of make this character very bespoke to him. But I did that for everybody. You know, I think just hours and hours of conversations with Kaylee, with Oscar, with Carrie. You know, Oscar and Carrie, like, you know, they discover a lot in rehearsals. And, like, we'll have, like, hours of, like, really in-depth Zoom conversations about super personal things.

57:18and so then I'll spiritually put that into the characters but then dialogue that's all a lot of it is discovered uh um in rehearsals and then that'll kind of get them feeling good and then usually after that we'll like start to put back some of the like little ornamental like jokes and stuff that we liked and then once they feel like they're in a good foundational place then they're like more apt to try some of like the sillier jokes and stuff when did when did carrie and oscar come on and did you have to tweak like for example carrie being english is essential to the character now in a way that i can't imagine it otherwise but i don't know what draft that turn occurred that uh they came on pretty early it was charles and kaylee first and then and then i was sort of looking at different configurations of actors that had a history behind them right and you wanted people who had worked together before yeah because the first impression of josh lindsey so bad that i was really worried that no matter how we write it we might lose the audience if they don't feel this inherent yeah uh like subtext between the two and um so oscar and carrie it's like you know they're two of the greatest movies of this century you know between drive and inside Lillian Davis.

58:36And so I went after Oscar first just because we're both at WME. And that was easier. So romantic. Yeah. I wish I had a better story. Because I blocked his shot. I was just like, you know what? There's some jokes about his height in the show. There is, yeah. And he, you know, I mentioned Kerry and he like lit up because I guess they've been pitching each other for every project they've done. since I live in Davis. And so I went to Carrie pretty soon after. Didn't you say she's like his favorite person to act with basically? They have a safety between them that is like insane. Like you watch them together and it just feels like, it's like, I don't even want to say Jordan Pippen.

59:23It's like two Jordans, you know? Spider-Man meme, but Jordan. Spider-Man meme, yeah. I like to go to a casino with those guys. There's a shorthand between them that is like unreal. and they just, they don't even have to say anything. They just like know like where the other person's going. Like one person starts to push the scene a certain way and there's like not a missed beat. It's really crazy to watch. But yeah, I think they both attached pretty early on. I think I had maybe like one draft of the pilot that I had sent to them. And, you know, once Carrie was on, I'm just like, oh, we have to switch to British.

1:00:01She's amazing on the show and the specificity, and this is a theme I keep coming back to when talking about how much I love the season, but the specificity of her being sort of this slightly failed British aristocracy posh lady who everyone, who sees her on Instagram, thinks she's thriving. But of course she's run out of funds and she searches the Daily Mail for people she knew or once slept with. That twinned with the absolute like millennial headshot of Josh loving hot chip, which is so specific and not a diss at hot chip. Not at all. I've never met anyone who said Hot Chip is my number one favorite band.

1:00:36They haven't heard the whole frequency spectrum of... Totally. But he's so razor sharp. That's what makes the show. And are those the things that you have... Do those things happen first? Like you think of that and the character comes from that? Or as you're building the character, do those details just populate? It's as we're building it. And that was really early on with Oscar. Because truthfully, early drafts had him... The synth stuff and the moog stuff didn't exist. it was sort of like first thought laziness. I had, we had written more that he was like really into like the Lumineers. And so we had like.

1:01:12I'm here for that season. Three scenes where he like, there was like. He's doing Hay folk. A lot of Ho He, like covering Ho He. And I think also I was like, I like so hell bent on. Remember that Outkast cover of Hey Ya that was acoustic? Yes. Oh, sure. And I just, that's so millennial cringe to me. that I was like hell bent on getting that in the show in any which way or form. And so I think that's why I leaned so hard into the acoustic guitar for Josh. But once we started talking about it, Oscar and I was like, okay, you did that on Inside Lumen Davis. Like we don't need to see Oscar Isaac with an acoustic guitar again.

1:01:50Like how am I ever going to beat the Coen brothers? That just won't happen. So we started talking about like other things that are millennial cringe. And then the idea of like a 40-some year old just like having this mini-mogue. and like like just like because mugs are also really hard you know like you like buy it and then you like think you're gonna get really good at like it's never cool yeah you know and so uh that's when we were like started really laughing together of hey we talked about the the like that seminal concert at the bowl where we literally name check in the show with lcd and hot chip opening like i feel like every person my age who's who lived in la at that time was at that show and cried and probably was on molly yeah probably posted about it on twitter when it was good yeah yeah exactly and so that's where we started having fun we're like oh should it be lcd or something but like hot shit felt like that perfect bullseye of i mean they're an incredible band i've seen them so much life but like you said they don't quite get the shine that they deserve and they're also a band that would that troy could call and in a moment show up at a denver chalet or a utah chalet and and and play at this like weird event um and so it's just like a lot of conversations talking about things that we find cringy about ourselves you know is that also where because i was curious about the pop culture references and and the thinking around like you know rooting these characters in having fights about bullet train or top gun maverick and mescal mescal knights and yeah like the idea of like you populate it with i it's it's funny too because like i guess josh and lindsey do a little more of it than austin and ashley because it's probably like they have more time to kill and they're more you know they're like still indulging in all of of their cultural obsessions or whatever they still go to the beach once a week sure but like you know like austin and ashley are kind of like grinding to make ends meet but when you when you're putting in references to to contemporary pop culture are you like how do i make this so that it's not immediately like you know in any year this is gonna be like oh okay we've dated ourselves i think it's just it has to feel like it's coming from character you know like even season one when Danny, like, I think he name checks, like, Linkin Park hybrid theory, you know?

1:04:18And it's like, it's just, we just did that because, like, that is what that person Danny would be talking about even in 2023 at the time. And I think for someone like Josh and Lindsay, I just felt like I had heard different couples post-COVID fighting about that. Like, I've heard that, like, structure of a fight amongst friends of, like, well I didn't get to go to that because you had COVID you know and so like like just having heard that so many times in my own life I'm like okay like that structure is very relatable like what movie could be that and Top Gun Maverick and Bullet Train those are just like I don't know there's things that I feel like feel more of Josh you know like I don't think Josh is going to the theater to see like you know Director Parks the Handmaiden at the Lemley when it opened But you have to be careful because it's got to be something that Oscar Isaac could not possibly have been in.

1:05:16Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, we do. And he's been in a lot. I'm like, you are in drive, dog. Yeah. What you're speaking to is so interesting because I think that one of the skills that you and your crew and creatives have is to draw the universality out of something very specific. and I'm thinking in this case about the way you use phones and social media which I think is the best I've ever seen on a TV show because it's not just the text on screen which we've seen it's the swappings between apps which you know mirrors the way and this is something we were talking about last week like the way our interiority is so impatient and so restless and we can just feed ourselves constantly even within a thumb movement and you know the way that like it informs the scene so that Austin is just speaking chat GPT, sweating, trying to keep his head above water.

1:06:08You know, or, and you may have heard me say this last week too, I love that your show ran at the reality of recently deleted. Because I think generally when movies and TV use phones, they elide the bits that don't work for the drama, that it would still exist in the cloud. But you ran right towards it. And can you talk a little bit about that conversation that you have with your writers about how we have to use what is actually out there? Thank you for noticing that because we spend an inordinate amount of time talking about exactly that. Like, you know, I think that backup video thing is a good call out because there was some debate in the room of like, should we abandon this backup video thing?

1:06:52Because like, yeah, like they would back it up to the cloud. And it's just, you know, the things I've learned from watching stuff that I love, like Sopranos and Breaking Bad, they're always like not shying away from the thing that like backs you into a corner. Because that's what life does. Life backs you into a corner. And so then, yeah, like, you know, if Ashley like deletes the text, then like recently deleted. Oh, it sucks that it's there. But then like we should lean into that. Like we can make that a story point. Yeah. and I think so we're always just trying to like look at our own lives the way we feel and try to figure out the most efficient way to dramatize that you know the app switching thing that's I gotta shout out someone on our VFX team Melissa Khan she came up with that this season I thought it was just brilliant you know because it's such a quick way to do exactly what you're talking about but we pour over everything from like like we spend hours like trying to find like the right like font and like you know um how much is true to the actual os versus like taking liberty and bending it like how do we just make this feel like how it feels for us when we use our phones and even in the mix when um ashley's texting austin about you know can you go to h &m can you do this like we boosted the his fast angry typing because that's how it feels when you're like angrily replying to somebody like you hear it a little louder and so just all these like very subjective ways we can create that experience because it's that that phone is just a part of who we are now and there's no going back there's even like the stuff that happens uh when ashley is texting unice about and it's like ashley's been in an accident but like her texting as austin is not austin's voice kind of stuff which is like that makes or breaks things it can take you out of out of the reality of what's happening if it's not um if it's not accurate i wanted to ask you a little bit about the monte vista and the the golf club stuff and then the connection to soul and and i know you wanted to talk about this as well but i was curious whether or not to start with that came fully formed to you as like a whole package of this is where i want the show to go and this is this other element of the show or whether that was something that was developed over you know after thinking about these four characters for a while there was like i want to bring another element in it uh it was the former because you know charles was the first piece because i knew that uh this half korean identity tug of war was something that's going to be very important to this season and and as part of that tug of war i knew that uh you know native korea was going to be on one end of that and and again it was just writing from what i know what i was experiencing like after season one i was i shot a music video for rm one of the guys in bts in korea and i hadn't been back in a really long time and getting the red carpet like rolled out for me and like getting wined and dined in like the private halls of a korean korean conglomerate and it was you know there was i joked to this one actual chairwoman i was like hey like i'm getting like a skin like uh self-conscious about my skin because you're like making me meet all these k-pop idols yeah and she just like without missing a beat she was just like oh I'll send you to my skin guy I was like what and she's like oh tomorrow uh in the morning a blackest of you will pick you up and we'll send you to our skin guy don't worry and so I'm like okay went in Rome yeah you look great well you know that was why I look like I gotta go back but I did this like light laser and I was just writing in my notes app the whole time I was like this is fascinating and I remember writing in my notes app before I even had like a page of anything for the show.

1:10:41I just wrote old boy style fight and skin clinic with skin flying around. I'm just like, I haven't seen that before. And, and you look around and this is like a world that's like thriving. Like it's like one of the biggest, like, you know, um, like, like agents of tourism for the country. Like people are like going over there in the masses and no one's really like dramatized this. And I'm always looking for new slices of the Asian and Asian American experience to showcase. And we had covered so much California, Korean American diaspora. And I'm like, well, this is new and exciting to me. And so that was baked into the Charles arc.

1:11:22How we went about it definitely changed as you, you know, attached to the greatest Korean actors of all time. That's the segue to what I was going to ask. You not only have Yoon Yoo Jung, who won an Oscar and is an incredible actress as the supervillain of the show. You got Song Kang Ho as one of the greatest actors alive to play a mostly comedic supporting part on the show. How did those conversations happen? Miracle after miracle. YJ I had met through Steven, obviously, on Minari. They worked together. And I think I had, I think I emailed her and then she was interested. So then I met her in Irvine, actually had like a chairwoman, Mickey Lee, who's like the head of CJ at her house.

1:12:12So it's like already very meta. And I was pitching YJ the arc and, you know, she's so, she's much like her character. She's so intimidating because you just hold so much gravity, you know, she is like truly royalty. and once I got to the part where she had a husband 20 years younger she just started cackling she was like no one in Korea would ever have the courage to write me a husband 20 years younger and I think you know she's had such a story career to be offered something where she can feel like she's doing something new it's I think something she's chasing so she was in and then I told her I'm like hey I'm gonna go after Song Kang-ho because like why not like Let's go for the moonshot.

1:12:56And, you know, he I had met through the success of season one. We had dinner in Korea a couple of times and I knew he was a fan of the show. But I also know like pitching him something that's like, you know, the sixth lead is like probably not going to go over that well. And also he had a very busy shoot schedule that he was already doing other stuff. So his initial reaction was no. like he I sent him a scene and he was just like uh like I don't know if it's gonna work with my schedule and I'm probably not right for this and I went back to YJ and I told her and and she just wasn't gonna have it she was like I'm gonna call him so she called him direct and she was just like hey you're Song Kang-ho you're the greatest actor alive what are you talking about you like don't know how to figure this out like you're gonna figure out how to play this it's gonna be great and you're gonna be in the show and so then like 48 hours later I got like a sheepish text from Song Kang-o being like, hey, change of heart.

1:13:52At what point did you tell him what may be the masterpiece of the season, which is his long, beautiful soliloquy about the mask of wealth and celebrity and what lies behind it and the dark truth of life. And then Austin says, I think I heard soup. Yeah. Yeah, he got that pretty late because I'm like notoriously late with my scripts and the finale was written like deep into the shoot and um i think he was getting a little anxious to be honest like uh because he was texting me a lot through shoot about uh like golfing like in classic like i think like korean misunderstanding like kind of like charles and and and like charles's character and and dr kim he had texted me early on being like is there gonna be golf in the show and i thought like Hopefully.

1:14:43Yeah, I thought hopeful. And I was like, sure, whatever you want. You're the greatest actor of all time. He's like, well, please let me know if there's golf in the show. And I was like, do you want golf? And he's like, if there's golf in the show, I would just love to know. And I was like, I can write you a golf scene. Does he need to get his swing dialed? And he was like, fantastic. If there's a golf scene, great. Please send. And I was like, I went to the writers room. I was like, guys, we have to write a golf scene for Song Kang-ho. and like this whole time we're going back and forth about this golf scene and I was like this guy's like weirdly obsessed with like wanting to play golf in a show like that's cool and it wasn't until like we were on the day shooting in Korea that he told me that he was like so nervous because he doesn't know how to golf oh my god and so he was stressed and I was like oh man I wish I would have known you call this guy that's his dream job this is just he's a swim doctor I got some YouTube videos I can send them.

1:15:41Ultimately, I wondered, you know, you finished the show a while ago. It's out now for a couple of weeks. I don't know if you've had much time to reflect, but do you feel like this season of Beef is ultimately cynical about love and marriage or clear-eyed about it? That's a great question. It's a good question. Follow up, are you married? I am married. And I think it's been interesting seeing everyone's different reactions because I've been trying to get better about that. Season one, like, I literally read every single word written on the internet about the show. There doesn't exist a word about beef I hadn't read in season one.

1:16:17You need to go to Korea and get a laser treatment for that part of your brain that's holding onto all of it. And season two, I'm trying to be better and, like, stay off the internet a little bit more. But I have seen, like, some people are taking it very cynically and other people are like, oh, that's actually, like, really beautiful. and I think it is doing what we intended where we wanted the ending to be open to interpretation. We want that beholder share and we also want people's interpretation to change over time depending on where you're at in life. And so like that's my favorite stuff is, you know, Sopranos, Mad Men, like, you know, I'll go and rewatch a Coen Brothers movie.

1:16:56Oh yeah, I was thinking about Burn after reading a lot with this. Yeah, where I'm like, oh, the way I received it in my youth is different than the way I'm receiving it now. And that's our intention with this ending is, yeah, if you're in a certain spot, you might take this super cynical. Where I'm currently at, I actually see it as like acceptance. And the reason we depicted the Buddhist concept of samsara as our last note was like, the point of samsara isn't to be like, we're in this eternal trap how cynical and give up the path to enlightenment is the acceptance of samsara and it's only in the letting go of it and in the almost like letting the wave of this wash over you that there is hope of breaking the cycle and hopefully pushing through this trap into enlightenment and so I personally, I mean this may change in 10-20 years, I don't know but But I certainly was trying to express a level of acceptance at the end.

1:18:05So I guess as a way to sort of kind of start to wrap up, how durable do you think this concept of beef is for you? I love the idea of a bucket. You can put anything you're interested in as a show. But I know you're obviously a busy guy. Like how much do you find yourself putting down ideas on like a notes app and being like, that's a beef idea. Like this fight I heard, this conversation I had, this idea, like it may not be like beef season three is rolling, but like beef season three is like in your mind somewhere? Definitely not. in my mind. All my beef ideas that I had in my notes app, I like had pitched to Netflix in trying to get a season two, which like didn't happen for the longest time too.

1:18:55I was like, what is happening? I'm the beef guy. Have you guys seen the TED Talk? I've seen you. So I've like run out, you know. I've definitely have tried to express everything I can through this show. And if this is the last season, which at this point I think is like a you know a collective decision between myself and Netflix I'm I'm I would be perfectly happy if this was the last season because I'm really proud of the work we did and and I feel like I've said everything I needed to say through the show but you know I also didn't expect season two to even happen sure you know like I I didn't know oh, I was going to write about two couples until real life hit me.

1:19:40And so if something hits a year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, I'm definitely open. But currently, it is a very emotionally exhausting show to do. It's like you really are sitting in the shadows of yourself for an extremely long time. And I - Got to write all these golf scenes. Got to write all these golf scenes. And so I'm ready to like, I have so many other things I want to pursue. We're pretty knee deep in X-Men right now, which has been like such a joy relative to. This is when I would use, I would send Netflix the Tim Robinson thing of like, oh my God, I can't believe he admitted it because I'm asking you about that next.

1:20:23So I'm happy you said the word first. Sure, yeah, of course. No, it's, I think I definitely need a break from this vessel of, literally this show is called Beef. It's just antagonism, you know? I mean, season three could be the brothers from Kings of Leon's beef with each other. You know, just throwing it out there. That would be easier to write. So you said it, so we didn't have to awkwardly dance around it. You are one of the writers announced working on the X-Men movie for Marvel. And I don't want to get you into any trouble with NDAs and things. But I was curious, process aside, your X-Men fandom?

1:21:04Like, coming into it, who's your era? Who are your guys? Who are your creators? What brought you into that franchise before you got the call? And what interests you about them? Oh, I mean, growing up, like, that was, like, the one thing my dad and I would watch together every Saturday morning. So it's the cartoon. Well, that was the initial way in, you know? And, like, cartoon for me, like, I was obsessed with Gambit. You know, obviously, like, Jubilee, like, you're like, oh like asian face you know like how cool like in this like group of superheroes and and so gambit and jubilee were like like my jam and i like i was really obsessed with gambit and uh and then like you kind of you know like everybody else you go in through claremont and yeah i think that that The feeling of sort of the original team, I think, is the movies.

1:21:59I love the movies as well, but it's a feeling that I miss. And when you go back and read some of the earlier stuff, there's so much inner team, almost like soapy things. Super melodramatic. They're either fighting the danger room or playing softball. and it's all about their own neuroses. Exactly, yeah. And I think the movies in a great way leaned into more of the political backdrop, which is just always baked into X-Men. But I think what's exciting about Jake's vision for this movie is he wants to get back to character first. He wants to really lean into sort of that inner character dynamics and relationships and play around with the soapy stuff that was like baked into the comics.

1:22:52And we've been, you know, me, Joanna, Jake, Kevin, Lou, we've been in rooms every single day. And it's so exciting like to have, like literally in the Marvel room, they have every character in the X-Men comics just like put on the wall and you're just staring at the best IP on the planet. You're like, can I get Bishop S? Yeah, it's the craziest thing. It truly is. Like, I like can't believe this is real. Like, it's so exciting. And that's also the hard part of it. It's like, you know, you feel a great responsibility with this because, yeah, we, like, amongst us, like, we are, like, we're trying to, we can really do anything.

1:23:33We're not, like, beholden to anything from the past. It's interesting because I think that one of the reasons why the MCU was so successful is because Kevin and his lieutenants were just elite at identifying the single log line at the heart of every one of these characters and communicating that like with a purity, you know, and then that continued on through Spider-Man. And I think that you guys, and I know you worked on Thunderbolts, you were able to do that with characters that people weren't even necessarily aware of, or at least their connection going into it. X-Men, it almost felt like for years, I always thought that they, maybe they were lucky not to have it in their arsenal because the log line is, you know, hunted and feared kids who hang out together, but who also are avatars for every marginalized class in history, but then having Like large, you know, global villains gallery, but then also maybe shouldn't be fighting because they are an evolution of humanity.

1:24:22Yes. So I guess the question in there is how? Well, I think, I mean, we're really early on. And I think what I've loved about working with Kevin especially is that that guy just has like an uncanny, innate sense of like what to chase. It's crazy. and I think Marvel has done a really great job of sort of clearing the deck. They had a lot of stuff going on. You know, Kevin was being pulled in a million directions. Like, they've cleared the deck. They're focusing on like just a couple things. You took Moon Knight season two off the table. I took it right off the table. I'm so sorry. There are so many ardent Moon Knight fans, but never say never.

1:25:06And Kevin's really locked in. And his, like, there's times like in the room where he'll say something where like, I think this. And then I'll be on the carpet. And of course, every interview question is about X-Men. And then seven fans will come up. And then the thing that the seven fans say is literally the thing that Kevin said in the room yesterday. So I'm just like, oh, he is just tapped in. And I think he's put a lot of trust into Jake because I think they're very happy with how Thunderbolts turned out and that it is a character-first movie. so you know it's really exciting I love I have a pep in my step going to work because it's like one it's a nice break from this and then two you know like childhood me is just like are you like driving to Burbank like I can't believe I'm doing this are you getting notes from your dad yeah well like my dad it's like you know when I told him that I got this he was just like that's the good one that's incredible yeah that's all i would ever need man thank you so much for coming by congratulations on this season good luck with x-men we will be monitoring the situation closely yeah i'm sure and please come back and join us again sometime soon man yeah i've got a list of follow-ups like could magneto and wolverine yeah no let's let's talk about it in a few weeks all right sounds good thank you take care man

1:27:07We'll be right back. You're welcome. Columbia. Engineered for whatever.