Catching Up on ‘Slow Horses,’ ‘The Lowdown,’ and ‘The Chair Company.’ Plus, the ‘Black Rabbit’ Creators!

26:37Andy Greenwald:I'm going to devil's advocate it. Maybe it's good to have a different voice in. I know that we're adapting books by Mick Herron, and so it's not going to deviate. But maybe New Showrunner will have a slightly different take on something or a different interest in something. and it might just be a different flavoring in the stew for season six. Yeah. Not to change it, but I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't mind. It's really interesting that you're having this reaction to this season. I thought, I mean, I know that the Rube Goldberg thing in four is really not your bag or it needs to be a different show for that to be your bag.

27:11You know, like that idea of like, isn't this a bit funny? Let's just trot off now.

27:17Andy Greenwald:It's just the same emotional beats for me for them to stumble out not knowing what they're doing, fuck up and then have Gary Olden be like, you fucking donkeys. But I've also been coordinating this so that I protect you the entire time. Just give me a different rhythm. Speaking of rhythms, let's talk about lowdown. Yeah, hell yeah. Because this is a rhythm that I can dance to. That I am pretty locked in. And I think that so you're current with this show through last night's episode? I am current. shows of the year and I think is getting to that point where I'm thrilled every time I turn it on because I have no idea what I'm going to get even though I know I'm going to get a reliable feeling so it almost becomes an album by a great by a band that you've got a long-term relationship with and you're just like I know it's going to sound awesome and I'm going to like it but I have no idea where they're going on this one.

28:15And so you have an episode like five, I believe it was, I can't remember the name of it. Maybe it was This Land or something like that. The Dinklage, where Dinklage shows up and plays. Right, we didn't really talk about that. And just gives a tour de force for like 45 minutes. And then the episode itself ends with the most harrowing, bracing, dangerous, scary, possible like scene which is uh lee being led through being arrested driven out into the middle of nowhere and then led through the world's scariest house party full of cops grilling shooting guns setting off bombs and he's being guided all the way up to this like gazebo area where there are a shadowy figure is standing watching over all of his tulsa police officers partying and blowing stuff up.

29:10And it turns out to be Donald Washburn, Kyle MacLachlan's character. And Kyle MacLachlan has been playing this character slightly like, you know, like, oh, I'm just a political operator, buffoon kind of guy. Love to sleep with my brother's wife and just kind of try to make as much money. And he gets this new evil coat of paint at the end of this episode. He's the devil.

29:30Andy Greenwald:Yeah. It was fucking thrilling to watch that sequence. It's like a water. and it has the energy, if not the firepower, of the Boogie Nights firecracker scene, except this is the rural, outdoor version of it. Well, it's also confirmation of everything Lee fears and thinks, right? That there is a grand conspiracy between the political apparatus and law enforcement, and that this is sort of the manifestation of his nightmares, of his writing, of his work. These guys all out here way too heavily armed, militarized. And it's this just incredible end note to an episode. And I am here for both sides of Lowdown.

30:17I'm here for the J.J. Kale shuffling along Tulsa guitar part of it. And I'm here for the operatic peek into the American abyss part.

30:27Andy Greenwald:And I got to say, that's a really hard two-step to pull off. Hell yeah. One of the hardest things about making a mystery television show, he said with some 2020 hindsight, is making every step of the mystery feel urgent and feel like there's a clock and there's a necessity to solve it or that someone is in danger or there's a sense of gathering storm clouds. while also taking time to digress, taking time to see the sights, taking time to slow down or drive into a cul-de-sac. I've found the way Sterling Harjo has unspooled that energy this season to be pretty masterful because it snuck up on you.

31:12Andy Greenwald:There was this undercurrent of some kind of generic evil of white men in half zips. the card turn of this episode that we're talking about from this week, which is episode six. It's called Old Indian Trick. It's written by Jason Sack, directed by Dennis Goulet. And by the way, I'm sure I'm not the only one of us who noticed that next week's episode is written by Walter fucking Mosley. I can't believe it. The next week is the penultimate episode and then Harjo is back for the finale Sensitive Kind on November 4th. The fact that this is, it's to your point, it is a conspiracy theorist discovering that there is a conspiracy.

31:50Andy Greenwald:But a conspiracy theorist discovering that there's not a conspiracy, there's a historical obscenity. The fact that and I almost don't feel prepared to talk about this specific detail generally, culturally, but then also without the full view of the series, but this was the episode when the Indian culture of Oklahoma that was the backbone of Reservation Dogs, Sterling's previous show, bubbled up and it was always there. It's always there. It's who he is. It's what he knows. It's part of, and it's part of the life blood of the Tulsa that he has shown us in everything that he's ever done. So it's not like this was a deviation from that, but this episode put Ethan Hawke as the, what does Keith David call him early on?

32:32Andy Greenwald:Like the white boy who has a white man who cares too much. Yes. Puts him into the, the hall, the store, the fucking, you know, centuries of torment and blood and, and pillage and he puts him right in the middle of it. And it gives this show a sense of weight that I think people who may have tapped out after, well, they didn't tap out after Peter Dinklage punched Ethan Hawke in the balls and then they wrestled around on a gravestone. But you know, maybe people who were like, I get that this is a cool hangout show, but I'm not necessarily, that's not my space right now. It is a cool hangout show on the surface.

33:14Like,

33:15Andy Greenwald:and then you realize that what they're rolling around in is, a graveyard. Yeah. And I found that really emotionally affecting. You never feel like you're at a lecture. You never feel like you are doing doing the good by watching this show. And I love how this series itself is basically following the same ethos as Lee's truth story in journalism where it's digging deeper and scratching and clawing. And now the series in this most recent episode in Old Indian Trick introduces us to what I guess is I would only imagine is the actual heavy of the show, which is Paul Sparks' Pastor Mark, who runs a Aryan nationalist evangelical church out in the middle of nowhere.

34:01Andy Greenwald:But is there some group chat where people just post names? Because this episode alone has Keith David and Kyle McLaughlin just fucking cooking. and then it also over the course of these past few episodes he swaps out scott shepherd for paul sparks like he got all those dudes yeah like all the dudes who are the best at being dudes and are actually incredible actors and like to work paul sparks leading tracy letts into the middle of nowhere to be greeted by like 15 automatic weapon bearing bikers and there's Something about like, I don't know. I don't feel like I'm alone in saying this, but like there is like a palpable energy exchange when you watch actors who just really fucking love acting act.

34:53Andy Greenwald:And so I was watching that scene of those two guys and I'm watching it because I'm very much into the show and I really liked the way that, I'm sure this was Sterling and his editors in post, like chop that scene up. So we have Tracy's character saying, I was threatened. and then you know we're backfilling that story we're seeing it after he's already announced it after he's made it out of there alive so i'm watching it i'm hanging on it but i'm also looking at paul sparks being like i wonder what paul sparks said when he came out of his trailer was it just yeah i got this yeah i think most of these guys seem like they're all first of all it's like tracy let's his scene partner for most of the last couple of episodes has been tom mccarthy so it's like these guys are just like that's fucking tom mccarthy yeah what and they're just like i can do this and then i think that there must be something where like when a white man of a certain age tucks his cowboy shirt into levi's or wranglers and puts that belt on he's like i know how to walk i know how to talk i do you know what i mean because like ball sparks is just like leading kyle mclaughlin up to that ridge and telling him this biblical story uh but also a historical story about Oklahoma land rush.

36:06And, uh, it's just so good, man. I, it, it, it's not,

36:10Andy Greenwald:I was talking to a writer here last night about this, that like the really, really good showrunners, writer, directors, whatever it's, it's not just about casting. It's about knowing and loving the actors you're casting so that you just, it's like being a, it's like being a coach or a manager, right you put them in the position to succeed you put them in the best possible light so they will show out uh on game day and like this is just a murderer's murderer's row and that's not even mentioning that we may have just also been gifted the actor graham green's last appearance yes um he passed away earlier this year this episode was dedicated to him he is playing uh the street artist's grandfather who developed a relationship with dale washburn Dale Washberg.

37:00Andy Greenwald:And the character is not well. And we have no... I don't know what Graham Greene's health was, but he is very compelling in this part because he brings his gravitas and his humor, much like he did in Reservation Dogs. And you're like... I don't know why I'm... I mean, I'm extremely sentimental in a weird way about the show because I'm like, it just must have been a sick day on set. Yeah. Because Hawk loves this shit. Graham Greene knows how to do this shit. it's cool to watch and i asked sterling at the event that we did a few weeks ago about the challenges of going from something that i think he probably really had his arms wrapped around which was reservation dogs to doing something where it's like okay man now like we all love mysteries we all fancy ourselves like sleuths and crime writers in the making but I've tried like I've tried to think through stories like that's fucking hard bro like here's a three-level conspiracy here's 12 characters here's what they're saying to each other at any given point and most importantly is here's how you move the story along in a way that makes sense to the audience but remains compelling and mysterious enough that they're like I haven't quite figured this out yet and you know there's a lot of scenes of people driving and doing expository dialogue but when you do it with the level of, I don't know, vulnerability and presence and versimilitude, but also just like care and love that they're doing it.

38:28And curiosity too, I think. Yeah, if Keith, David, and Kyle McLaughlin want to sit in a Kia and tell me what I just watched a scene ago because they have to also explain, I'm like, I don't give a shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't give a shit. Kyle McLaughlin being like, that's why you get a broker because you don't have to deal with crazy guys like this.

38:47Andy Greenwald:He is great on the show. And as a longtime Kyle fan, seeing him just get to play the heavy. Yeah, when Keith Davis is like, what did he do to you? What did this guy? He's like, he's prying. But also, he's playing a heavy without quotes around it. Do you know what I mean? He's not camping it up. He's not like Wing King. Did you ask Sterling about his decision, his some would say radical decision, to cast himself as guys sitting on a picnic table outside of a food hall? I had not seen that episode when we did the interview, so I had no idea. But yeah, nice jacket. It was cool. It's also not him.

39:21Andy Greenwald:I want to get to the bottom of that. Maybe we'll talk to him at the end of the season, which is like, I get showrunners who don't do cameos. I get showrunners who do cameos. Like, I feel like when our friend Sam Esmail cameoed in the last season of Mr. Robot, like, I think he said like the show's catchphrase or something. Like, he was interrogating Elliot. Like, he was like, I am the creator, thus I will manipulate the... But Sterling was just like, I'm the guy next to the guy who says something in one of the episodes. I want to know more about that decision. It's cool. I just feel like it's like, it has that Linklater feel of like everything in Tulsa is like alive and there's 10 different movies and TV shows at once.

39:59And that's just a scene from a different one, you know? I really love that.

40:05Andy Greenwald:Also T.O. Horn, who played the dear lady in Reservation Dogs, she plays Samantha, who's Ray's, I'm sorry, Lee's ex. she's great on the show she's great on the show and again it's a tribute I think to the vibe that Sterling creates but also probably I'd like to think whatever Ethan does on set that like he's like okay it's another day new dance partner let's go you know and every one of these scenes he does with people whether it was Gene Triplehorn in that great episode a couple weeks ago or whether it was Dinklage last week or whether it was her this week or Graham Greene this week, like you never get the sense that the other actors or characters.

40:52Who's really fun. The, the bookstore.

40:55Andy Greenwald:You never get the sense that they, um, or Ryan Kier Armstrong plays Francis, his daughter. You never get the sense that they are just for the purposes of the scene. They are satellites orbiting around the sun, the star of the show. Like it's like, okay, here we go. It's another two-hander, another two-hander, another two-hander. What are they bringing to this? What is the dance? I'm just, it's exciting when there's a new episode to watch. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start.

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42:40Andy Greenwald:Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. This episode is brought to you by NOS Energy. Introducing new NOS Energy Grand Prix Guava. For those that want to be fueled up and fired up with 100-mile-an-hour tropical tasting power, ignite your taste, start your engine, shift your flavor to high gear with new NOS Energy Grand Prix Guava. Hit the street, grab a can, and get after it. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in.

43:16Earn unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a two percenter. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply. Let's hit share company. I kind of want to lay out for you here because I am on the receiving end of a lot of very intense texts about Tim Robinson from you where you're just like this fucking rips this is so genius this is so funny and I get it and I do think he's funny I will say there is nothing funnier in the world to me right now than watching Tim Robinson and Conor O'Malley do anything together

44:04Andy Greenwald:Have you watched the full 13 minute cut of them On the set of friendship. In fact, it's starting to approach. It's not quite feeling in the plums. It's close. But it's getting there. Him being like, give me a reason to call my lawyer. When he says he got the hat at the Vietnam War store. Because he's a fan. He's just a fan. All right. So, share company, which I will describe for people. I mean, obviously, most people listening to this have probably watched some amount of I Think You Should Leave or are familiar with Tim Robinson's comedy at this point. Yeah, he did Detroiters. He's done a couple of seasons of I Think You Should Leave on Netflix and now is doing this show Chair Company on HBO.

44:49He also made a film called Friendship that came out earlier this year with Paul Rudd. I think Friendship is a very useful movie to watch in relationship to Chair Company.

44:58Andy Greenwald:It's just worth watching in general. There are some ideas that also comes from a similar creative axis where it's Andrew DeYoung who directed Friendship Direct at the first at least episode or first two of Chair Company. I think first definitely. And then Zach Kanan. First two. Zach Kanan who has frequently collaborated with Tim Robinson in the script writing part created this show with Tim Robinson. I will describe this show as the parallax view meets the office. Good job. Good job by you. It's a 70s conspiracy thriller about nothing about a guy who works in an office. But I have been kind of surprised that, yes, every time, every episode, I laugh really hard like three times.

45:42Usually it's just like a facial expression he makes or the way that they will tease out a joke for five extra seconds. Like Jamie screaming in the intersection in her car in this show. but tell me what it is about Robinson that you think you're reacting to. Cause I don't think of you as cringe comedy, bro.

46:03Andy Greenwald:I don't think of it as cringe comedy. So there's a couple of things like one. I love this show and full disclosure. I very unlike me. I was so excited to watch the show. I watched a bunch of them. I slow horses. I watched a couple of them a couple of weeks ago before I left for London. So I'm, I'm certainly I've seen the two episodes that have aired. I did not watch them this week. Um, I love the show. I love his I love Detroiters I love I think you should leave I love friendship I think that he is the patron saint of a certain type of 2020s American masculinity I think that there is a a frustration and a desire for exceptionalism and specialness that just seethes from that swollen vein in his neck and that everything he does like like will ferrell or danny mcbride in their peaks and you could argue they're still in their peaks i just find everything he does funny it is what i also find interesting is that every one of those people every one of those two other guys that i mentioned similarly have had a a character that they play and they have attempted over projects and time to stretch that character and see.

47:23Andy Greenwald:Yes. See exactly. See how malleable that character is. And Tim is doing the upper peninsula version of this guy. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's not mean spirited either. So when you say it's cringe, I mean, there's awkwardness, but like, no, there's a weird sweetness sometimes to it as well. A friendship had some darker overtones, which were fun and welcome, but like Detroiters, the way he and Sam Richardson interact with each other and their business and the city is actually kind of sweet, even if it is also idiotic at times. But I think that the way that he's stretching the character and the curiosity with which he's stretching the possibilities and the horizons for the character, I find just very fascinating and compelling on an artistic level because he's like, okay, it works in sketch comedy.

48:06Andy Greenwald:Does it work in a movie? Yes and no. Does it work in a half hour conspiracy thriller? Which is not a question I would have asked. And I certainly wouldn't have expected the answer to be a definitive yes. Like I loved this instantly and I could feel it in my bones. Like I, I, he's playing the same guy, but, and is it Kate Mara or is it Lake Bell playing his wife? It's out of his league. Sure. Okay. I get it. It's just, you know, it's, it's slightly different, but kind of the same. Um, there is something here's what I wanted to say about it. When I watched one battle after another, I was like, I bet PTA fucking loves Tim Robinson because there is a real commonality, I think, in the almost aggressive absurdity of their humor and of their feelings about the role anger plays in American society.

48:56Andy Greenwald:And I think that they are related as a project, like both of what they're doing right now. And there are elements of one battle after another, at least tonally. I'm not saying they're both masterpieces or whatever, but like tonally there's something that is similar to me like christmas adventurers is i think you should leave yeah christmas adventures in the service of a thomas pinchon uh adaptation that's also about the rise of fascism and being a girl dad maybe that's not maybe tim's not there yet you know what i mean but there's something something that is similar and i'm just really excited to see where it goes because as you said the baseline is this is going to be really fucking funny yeah The moment that the show really left earth for me was when Ron Trosper, the character that Tim Robinson is playing, has finally hunted down Mike Santini, the guy who he seemed to think was hired by Tekka Chairs to warn him off of going too far down the rabbit hole.

49:59He confronts Mike Santini who fakes a heart attack.

50:02Andy Greenwald:We didn't even say this. He's seeking justice because he had an embarrassing thing happen to him at work. Yes, I guess we should have set the show itself up. Yeah, so it's basically a guy who's working at a shopping mall design firm. He seems to be some sort of project manager or something. He gets a big opportunity to oversee the opening of a new shopping mall, even though nobody goes to shopping malls anymore. He gives this big presentation, and as he's going to sit down after giving his speech in front of Lou Diamond Phillips and everyone else. He sits down in this chair. The chair collapses, thus setting off a chain of events where he is pursuing the corporate ownership, the ultimate responsibility.

50:42He wants to find out who did this to him at the biggest moment of his life. So he starts emailing, calling. One night, he is mysteriously attacked in the parking lot of his business by a not very intimidating Italian man named Mike Santini. he turns out to just be kind of a ne 'er-do-well private investigator who has been hired by an unknown third party but when they're having this confrontation this got this older man mike santini throws boxes of trash at him and jim romson is like these are my work clothes and then starts screaming about how like there's something going on that could hurt a lot of people and i'm the only one who knows about it and it is kind of like okay well this is this is pretty much the 2020s completely summed up yes he is going very small someone throws garbage at you

51:34Andy Greenwald:well you're just trying to get to your day job where they will maybe have cookies at break time yeah yeah that's what we're that's where we're at i also like perversely as a you know we are commentators on uh not just the shows but on the larger industry like i i would i would pay money I would subscribe to a 19th streaming service if it could offer me in split screen the pitch for this show and the pitch for, I don't know, like Silo. Like the pitch for this show is Tim Robinson being like, I sit on a chair, it breaks. What the fuck happens next? And then Casey and everyone and Amy and Franny at HBO are like, here's a bag of money.

52:15Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Fucking Scrooge McDuck comic. Whereas with Silo, it's just like, okay, so there's this guy, but he lives underground. but Rebecca Ferguson, you know, she's like, she's working. Have you seen Silo? Years, like years ago. But I remember it was like the most, all I remember is the most like far-fetched aspect of it was that like David Oyelowo and Rashida Jones were like deeply in love. Is that right? I found that very, very, but Rebecca Ferguson was just like maintenance. Yeah. And then she came to the fore when it came time to find out why they were really in the Silo. you know we should do i think this would be i don't know if this would be a releasable episode but i do think i would enjoy it is that if we had one episode where we let i don't know who among the ringer family extended family of artists uh keep up on this stuff but like someone comes in and just talks at us and tells us about seasons two through five of foundation and then they cycle out and someone comes in and tells us about season two three and four of silo do we talk or is this just a recap pod that we're present i think it would be compelling if we're just like we need you to you guys I've seen season 3 of Silo fucking Kaya you've been here the whole time I can't do it this pod cannot be a Tim Robinson show where it's just you and I listening then we kind of obviate the need for us Kaya what's up with the Silo no spoilers are they still in the Silo so you want me to tell you what's up with the Silo but not spoil it for you Off air, I 100 % do.

53:50Andy Greenwald:I guess I just want you to, in a non-spoilery way, just vibe check on Silo Season 3. Like, what are our hopes and dreams? I'll tell you this. There's not just one Silo. What the fuck? I knew that. Did they rename the show Silos? No. These ideas are free. Greenwald, it's been great seeing you, man. Let's get into my interview with Zach Balin and Cade Sussman. and they are the creators and writers of Black Rabbit. Black Rabbit premiered on Netflix a couple weeks ago. It stars Jude Law, Jason Bateman, as brothers involved in basically the explosion of their own lives as they try to run a restaurant in New York City.

54:34It features some great performances. I thought it was incredibly dark and compelling in that Ozark way and utterly watchable. Zach and Kate were really awesome. And we talked a lot about the writing of the show, working with Jason Bateman and Jude Law on these characters, and also just the restaurant scene in New York City and how that inspired the show and how it plays such an amazing role in the show itself. So let's get into my interview with Zach and Kate. Andy, I'll talk to you on Monday, buddy. Zach and Kate, thank you so much for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having us. This is kind of how I would like to be doing Netflix shows, which is like a couple weeks after they come out, you know, and people get to like watch them a little bit.

55:15It's always frustrating when it's like Black Rabbit comes out and then the first piece on Vulture is explaining that crazy Black Rabbit ending. I'm like, guys, it's one hour. Like I haven't even been alive here. I want to talk to you first about the tone of the show, because despite I wrote down some of this gun violence, robbery, dismemberment, drug abuse, sexual violence, financial skullduggery, and suicide. I find this show to be one of the most fun shows I've watched this year. And how do you guys, when you're writing this balance, for the lack of a better term, entertainment value, but just this almost compulsive watchability of the show with all the heavy material that's in it?

55:56We started first with those two guys. And that relationship of what Jake and Vince or Jason and Jude were going to go through and what that arc was going to be was very cemented from the conception of the show, I think. And so I think that we wanted to try and see if we could make this sort of operatic family story. But then also, you know, we talked a lot about things like Uncut Gems or State of Grace or Before the Devil Knows You're Dead was a huge. reference for the show and and just like could you tell a really emotional story like that but then also just like keep your foot on the gas of the kind of like knives that are getting thrown at the guys the whole time and and so in the writer's room i know that was like a constant challenge that we were like talking everyone was about was sort of just how how can we maintain the balance of the like emotion and groundedness of that relationship while at the same time trying to just like get a sense of inescapable both propulsion and like trauma for these guys.

57:05And we weren't trying like just hearing all those things. I was like, God, this sounds terrible. So it's a restaurant. There's love. Yeah. There's tenderness. Parenthood. Yeah. No, I think we didn't set out to like want to see or make anything really violent. And I think wanted something that felt very grounded, but also kind of imperative. Like what are real world stakes that could feel dangerous enough, but like in, you know, the realm of possibility. We've talked so much about Michael Clayton, which, you know, in that movie, Michael Clayton owes$70 ,000. And like, that's a real number that you can like.

57:41So we kind of started with that premise, like, you know, how much does a restaurant make every night? And so what would be a reach for Jake to have to make? How much could Vince's character have lost in a bet? Really making sure it seemed believable, but also heightened just enough that chaos ensues from what they've done. It's got basically the narrative rhythm of what addiction feels like, where you're like, I'm always just about to get my head above water, and then I get swamped again. That kind of feeling, especially for the Vince character, where he's just like always like salvation or like getting out of it is right there and he can't help but like either his past comes back to get him or he does something that swamps him like that.

58:32It's like very, very perceptible. So here are the actual numbers and that that was something you guys were thinking about is really interesting. Well, we talked a lot about like when we were finding, you know, Jude's apartment in the show was a build, but it's a replication of an actual apartment that we had in our location, this guy, Paul Escanazi, who was a Successions location guy, who was amazing, who found in like Soho, Tribeca area. And then we were like, okay, what does this place actually cost? How could someone like Jake potentially afford it? What would that rent mean for his earnings at the restaurant?

59:11I mean, we got really deep and tried to really be quite accurate about just the financial like challenges and hurdles of living in New York and trying to put on the kind of face that he is putting on and and so I remember early on we were like I had ridden in that that Jude was going to drive this like like a 86 beat up Targa or something and we just spent a lot of time we're like that car is actually like even a shitty one you know that's like a like you're going to spend 60 ,000 bucks on that car and we're just like this guy can't afford that right and that jaguar that he drives it like it looks great but that's like a that's a six thousand dollar car right right he's fixed off or whatever yeah yeah so it's like i think we wanted to sort of make sure that we felt like all that stuff was both plausible and that you had a sense of like reaching for something that was unattainable but that these guys could at least manifest the like some of it you know and that idea like you lived in new york i wonder if you felt like this we were we like started out our career there so we were always like how much does that guy's apartment cost and like how does this person always have a new like outfit and like really being like super interested in like the face that people were showing and like what's the you know like anna the bartender like what's her like apartment look like compared to mel the hostess who's like parent supporter and just like kind of thinking about who are these different people in the city who you know like where do they live how do they present themselves because we had been totally obsessed you know with that idea i mean i remember my job like when i moved there i was working at kim's on saint mark's yeah and we would get paid i mean sorry mr kim if i'm revealing your financial secrets i don't think so but like it was uh we would get paid minimum wage in a check and then we would get paid cash under the table for the additional amount that we were owed but like on fridays you were like i have some money in my pocket you know like the idea of that and i'm sure that's the same thing for the restaurant business where it's like I'm cash rich tonight you know and like so that I can have a different kind of New York experience totally for 48 hours now that might not mean I can get a better apartment or get a better you know car or something like that but I can go out you know and I can have a good time tonight yeah and I think we were talking about that like sort of edge with addiction and with Vince I think that he's he's someone who is constantly like you know he on the edge of winning and it's either he's always blaming other people for the mistakes that he makes or the situation that he's in.

1:01:38I mean, when he, in that first scene in Reno where he runs over, he takes the guy's keys and he's like, you know, this is your fault. And then later his father says that same thing. But there's like, I think we talked a lot about with Jason, is this guy someone who is self-sabotaging all the time and doesn't actually feel like he is entitled to any sort of success? And so anytime he gets close, is he like is he the like the atom bomb of himself and i don't know i mean i think a lot of people are sort of right on that edge of like sure yeah yeah in terms of like you mentioned the sort of having that uncut gems devil knows you're dead feel to it how hard is that to pace how hard is that to stretch out over the course of eight hours and and probably more and then figure out like here are the beats that we have to have like a breath here's where we really want to ramp it up in like the last act of an episode and going into the first act of another and you have these flashback scenes that I think are really effective and really kind of deepen your relationship to the character where sometimes flashbacks can be like okay but like this is like you're really seeing these pivotal amazing moments in these guys's life together and it it was those were really rich so how do you guys go about constructing any given episode I mean I could grab one at random like one of the the Laura Linney block in the middle of where it was actually my favorite part of the season.

1:03:01I think just also because like, that's where you're kind of like midair with the characters and really like anything could happen. Um, so just tell me a little bit about putting together an episode in terms of pace and tempo and kind of like what you're going to do to a viewer. Maybe I'll talk broad strokes and you can talk more specifically, but we always knew like, you know, Uncut Gems was this big, like inspiration for us, but we're, you know, And we knew you couldn't have eight hours of that experience because there'd just be too much to kind of withstand. And kind of too much. You felt like you were like locked in that vestibule for eight hours.

1:03:38You were turning that off after like. So we knew we kind of wanted to build up, you know, that idea of the robbery and that being like the first episode of the show and something that we're building up to. We knew that we wanted to climb up to that point and kind of earn the buy-in for the characters and establish this relationship. And then we kind of knew that we wanted the final two episodes to be just an all out like kind of chase. Yeah. And we knew that those were going to be like the most intense and like where the wheels have fully come off. So we started to think about like, you know, if that's like the third act or like the adventure, the like stomach churning part of the show.

1:04:15How are we going to construct the six episodes that lead up to that, that both hopefully tell the audience that we're like getting towards that, that it's going to start. like the wheels are going to come off bit by bit by bit across um every show but then how do you still keep you know you gotta when one episode ends there has to be a reason to like stick around for a final episode so we worked like really hard to and the and like you were saying laura like with each of the directors had such a different take on it but i think laura's block is really interesting because like you said that's where we like get to know the characters and like see them come into their ways a little bit but had to like work hard to still make you know the stakes have to like keep growing and growing and growing and um i think we just kept like focused on building earning like stress and interest enough up to six knowing that after that it was going to be kind of yeah i mean i think that we looked at it in a couple different ways i mean we're you know like that block you're talking about in particular i think that is a block where if you've come into the first act of the show and you and at least that vince's character on the surface is the sort of chaos engine of it.

1:05:23But then in three and four, we begin to understand that Jake, you know, has made a lot of - It's just as underwater. Yeah, and the difference between them is that like Vince wears his fuck-ups on his sleeve and he owns them and Jake is always putting this mask on. And so for like an emotional sort of character reveal, three and four were really kind of about understanding that part of Jake, having that, what's that like for Jake when that gets exposed. And so we knew that there was going to be, that would be sort of the emotional turmoil of those episodes. And I mean, I think that honestly, it was something that we were trying to, the pace and all that stuff was things we were trying to figure out the whole time.

1:06:03And Jason had a huge hand in sort of how the tension would continue to be wrapping up throughout the edit. Jason was very hands-on. But I mean, things like those flashbacks were things that we had always talked about in the writer's room but weren't even scenes and when we got to when we were in production we were constantly writing and evolving things in you know we knew what the end was we knew the form of it all but like we worked really closely with justin kerzel who directed the last two episodes and we had done the order with and um and he's just this like incredibly collaborative like you know i remember there's this one scene sorry this is going off well no but in episode seven And things have all sort of fallen apart.

1:06:49And Jude's character, Jake, has this really frantic phone call with Vince after the robbery. And we were shooting that. It was late at night. We were underneath the Brooklyn Bridge under there. And Jude's just pouring his heart out. I mean, that guy, he gives everything. And he's been doing it for like an hour. And then Justin goes up to him in one take. And he's like, mate, why don't you, after you've done this one, take your shoes off. And just throw in the traffic. and and ju just looks at him he's like all right cool yeah let's do it and it was this amazing like it didn't end up in the show but it like i think the whole production sort of had this feeling of like if someone has a good idea let's just run with it and let's try and see if you can you know if if it's additive and and so even those flashbacks those are things that kate and i wrote like pretty late in the production and we came to like the the idea that the band came from this playboy magazine and that was like you know that was something that we had sort of were kicking around and and we're like how can we get this in the in the show in the series and we had gone to erica kay who's our line producer was like asking us where's the name come from and we sort of told her this story and we're like oh what if do you think we could build the kids bedroom from you know do you think we could have like vince watching robin bird yeah late at night and and it was just it was a constantly sort of like additive process which was really exciting which you can't really in a movie you can't really get a chance to do well I like the the flashbacks also give the Vince character this different shade because that's a point in his life where he still has a little bit more confidence and a little bit more maybe his like he's it's starting to fall apart but I I was re-watching the scene where Jake buys him out and that's a really good example of what I wanted one of the things I wanted to ask you is like what's on the page versus what happens once Bateman or Law get involved where the gesture he makes or like the line he has when the lawyer comes in with the papers and he's like and how did I fucking know you were going to be here you know what I mean like or I'm not surprised you're here and I'm like well it's such a Jason Bateman line delivery but also this is still a guy who thinks he's got control because he's just like I founded this place like he's still kind of holding on to these these semblances of ideas about himself so the flashbacks wind up being really really effective in that way yeah yeah we're like so interested in the we both have siblings and like that dynamic that you kind of establish a relationship with your sibling or like you know us and a lot of people we know that you can't break even like as you grow older and and grow into like your different careers and and life and stuff so this like reverence that that Jake has for Vince he's probably had it since they're 8 years old and he can't shake it like whatever Vince does like he's the cool one he's cool and Jake like even when other people are like what are you still doing with this loser this guy is bringing you down he's an anchor Jake just has so much he holds him with so much reverence so like in that scene you can like Jake's heart is breaking to do this to his brother and his brother is kind of like come on man like this is my place you couldn't throw me out and then um And then, you know, you see that he can.

1:10:05And, like, I think in terms of, like, both Jason and Jude brought, like, so much to their characters and took them, like. They're so fast, both of them. Yeah. Like, on the day and, like. That we had written. Vince was, like, on the page at first. Vince was a little bit more, like.

1:10:24Andy Greenwald:Depressive. Not pathetic, but, yeah, like, low. Yeah. Like, really depressed. And like, I remember there was like a few scenes that he cried, you know, that we had him like, you know, come and clean about stuff. And Jason was like, no, this guy doesn't cry. Yeah. And so we saw, you know, the first day that we shot was the day of Vince's opening in Reno in the parking lot. And like Jason brought such a like indignant attitude to like this, that scene. and we're like, okay, this is actually more interesting in a way that this guy who is like... He's like, I can't believe I have to ask for a Coke here or whatever, like he's getting it.

1:11:04Or like that guy puts a gun to his head and you're immediately like, oh, this guy's had a gun to his head before and he's not scared. It's a Wednesday. Yeah, yeah. And so, and then we really, then we did a lot of rewriting as we saw kind of how, particularly Jason was embodying him. And I think like that scene in particular, that was written by Andrew, who's this amazing writer who was with us and I remember that line that he's like I can't think of it exactly but where he basically was like what happened to your finger and Andrew wrote that but then Jason just has this ability to sort of jump in and add a little something on top of it that makes it either incredibly disarming or incredibly assaulting I mean in that scene I know it's not scripted when he yells at Jude and he's like hey on the day in the room that was like it was frightening yeah and and and so i think that that there was a lot of flexibility on set of like we we want this thing to feel natural and i think there's a lot of times where one is a writer like you put something down and you're like you get really beholden to or well that's what i was gonna ask about to like a to a line or a phrasing and this happened to me like early on in my career like when we did king when i was working on king richard like i had written that script and i was like i love no line in this thing can change and then i got on set and then i got on set and i was like you know you know i got really lucky and i was very very good friends with ray the director and so and we were and we were constantly rewriting on set and like and and will is like quite a talented improv yeah and you're like if you want the thing to feel like like real life and not a movie then i think you have to be available to to to see where it's going and to and to allow like an actor to have some flexibility unless you're like you know i mean i think there are amazing writers who probably can put it on the page and but i i feel like that the actors who we've had the best experiences with like um john bernthal will jude who've worked a couple times, Jason, like, you know, they, they add a lot.

1:13:18And if you're, if you're available to be there with them and be like, okay, what, what, what, how can this be better? How can this be more naturalistic? Can you say it with less? Like, and also if you, when you realize pretty quickly that they're, you know, obviously all of your scenes have like an intention or like, you know, there's a point to every scene. And so as long as you, as soon as you start seeing people do it and they're changing stuff, but are adhering to like, you know, what's the point of the scene or what's like the change that's going to happen in the scene? What's like the fuck up they're setting up now?

1:13:48As long as you're like, this person still gets that that's the intention of the scene, that they're still going to hit that, then we can like have fun with everything else as long as we like this one point or this one idea is going to get across. Let's do it in any way that feels natural. And once like we started seeing Jude and Jason, obviously like they're so smart about, you know, storytelling and that you're like, okay, so you know what we're supposed to do here. So if these lines don't totally match up with what we said, that's great. I think people generally when they hear about even just the word might not be appropriate for this but the idea of improv they think of Will Ferrell movies and they think of Judd Apatow or Adam McKay yelling alt lines from behind the camera and we're just trying to find the funniest thing but what you're saying makes a lot of sense that this show feels so alive from one character down to the 14th character which is another thing I want to ask about but you can tell like there was still the sort of connective tissue between original intent screenwriting and maybe these people being like these are nightlife guys like these guys are talking for a living and like making deals and trying to get out of trouble so like it's got to feel like kind of as it goes forward like kate was saying like a lot of things wanted to dismantle you know so that like by five and six the the camera begins to move in a different way than it was early on and by the time you get to justin's episodes in sevens eight then it's like it's handheld and we're on the street and there's very minimal lighting and it's like behind the action yeah and trying to catch up i mean justin was like you know to the frustration of our of our like operators sometimes would be like you know point the camera over there yeah you'd be like start looking this way and and ari would be like what's the blocking he's like you don't get to see the blocking you know who's ari Ari was one of our amazing cameras God that sucks I remember the first day with him we were in a subway in New York which was always just a dream we're going to get to shoot in a subway and it was just a simple thing of Jason running in there and it was so funny Justin's like we're going to go over to this you look over there actually the first time he was shooting we were on Is this the subway towards the last time of the last phone call?

1:16:04He mentioned the subway? Yeah. And before that, we actually were on Essex Street, which is where we shot, where Anna has her scene with Roxy on the bench. And then we come back to that at the end of the show. And Justin's first thing, these guys were wheeling out this huge light. And he's this kind of big and posing Australian guy. And he's like, put that shit away. And immediately, everyone's like, okay, this is going to be a different. This is going to be a different block. Does that allow you to be a little bit more run and gun when you're out in New York City? What was the challenges? It's been a minute since there's been such an authentically New York show like this that also isn't...

1:16:46SVU aside and the great law and order aside, but you're going into every nook and cranny and shooting in these extraordinary places. I imagine it's helpful to actually not have a ton of stuff that you're bringing with you. We got like really lucky. I mean, we, there was never a world in which we didn't, this show wasn't going to shoot in New York. It's like so much about the city and, you know, our experience there and, and like the, the rich tapestry of our city. But we, I think we got lucky that our Black Rabbit was one of the earliest shows to come back up after the writer's strike and the, the SAG strike.

1:17:20So I think not only did we get like an incredible crew because a lot of people had been, you know, didn't have, weren't working and we kind of got our pick of department heads and everything. But I think the city like really opened itself, was like glad to have production happening again. I will say like to the credit of Eric, our line producer and our locations manager, like we heard no like zero times. Like we want to shoot on the Brooklyn Bridge. Like sure. 10th Street Best. Sure. Like all these places that were kind of like bucket list places that we had been and hung out. We're like, we want to shoot there.

1:17:53And we, we like never really heard no, which was incredible. And then. Is that on the, when the, when, in one of the Laura Linney episodes, there's the, uh, the zoom out and Bateman's on the phone. Is that against the, is that against like Peter Cooper, but it's on the East river or something? Like he's in like a kind of walking. That's episode five. Over the FDR. Yeah. So that's like, yeah, that's like on, I think it's on 6th Street. Oh, okay. Going across the FDR to like where those tennis courts. I was like, this is incredible. It was so funny. That was, we were supposed to get coverage of that shot and Ben Semenoff, that was his episode.

1:18:27And he, you know, he like shot that whole thing and he was like, well, let's not, we don't have to cover this. This is great. Yeah. Looks amazing. But I mean, that was, I think sometimes like that's, it seems very simple and it's one shot, but like that, that took a tremendous amount of infrastructure. but then there are things and things like getting to shoot at the at the pool room you know like those were enormous logistical like operations but then some of the stuff like you know the at the end there's a lot of driving things in new york which is very challenging to do especially on a tv i can't even imagine like you know driving across the brooklyn bridge or or the jake's sort of race out to Coney Island um which in some ways we just kind of times just put a camera in the back of a car and had it with Jason and Jude in there and we got like one take and the car broke down and and so in some ways there was a very independent spirit of making this show and then in other times we like Netflix was honestly incredibly terrific and we just like you know we built that entire restaurant on a on a stage and it was like down it was so meticulous and you know i don't think the resources that we were given to do some of that stuff were spent there and then we it allowed us to like you know a lot of the stuff at the end where jason is in the diamond district like we shot all that stuff in like a day yeah which was moving incredibly quickly yes for how complicated some of that stuff was okay you mentioned the restaurant so I want to ask was there I think I remember reading it was like 2022 when you guys were like sold this or like were like basically it was right before the writer's strike so whatever that was and then can you think of like this is probably too convenient but was there like a night or a day after and you were like you know what would make an interesting story if not a feature or a series is something about the place we were last night or something about this like was there was there like a kind of inciting I mean yeah yeah there were I would say there were two I mean I'll talk about one you can talk about the other but there was a restaurant in Williamsburg called the Dressler which was the first I believe it was the first Michelin star restaurant in Williamsburg and to us like that we had moved to Brooklyn at that point and like and that restaurant was sort of like a pillar of that community in that it had sort of taken what was this artistic neighborhood and And I think in some ways like was part of the group that sort of said, this is like a serious place in a way.

1:21:05And then that restaurant had a really tragic fall. And the guy who created that restaurant like got embroiled in debt and ended up committing suicide. And so there were a handful of articles that had been written in the aftermath of that. Like what happened was this, did this, in some ways did this dream or did this neighborhood almost that they were a big part of creating like cannibalize itself and so that you know was something that was in we had been like wrestling with that for a long time and like there's something really interesting here and and about the places that we lived and about the kind of ambition that i think new york like can instill in people and and then also like can sort of you know topple them and and that was a big part of it and then i lived across the street um from the Spod Pig in the West Village and was there when it opened.

1:22:00And that place had like a huge, you know, like figured pretty large. And like my like kind of idea of what New York was about, this like cool downtown like hang. And it was not like banker bros. It was like already like downtown types. And so we were, we spent a lot of time there. We didn't have a ton of money, but we, you know, when we could, we'd get drinks there and have meals and sometimes get lucky enough to get up to the third floor but um but and a handful of other places like that beatrice and and um you know like odion or you know the number of places mineta tavern places that we went and we were just really like kind of captivated by how sexy and alluring and cool like what we imagined was going on there but then when you know the spotted pig had like this huge scandal that was going on that we that like we became aware of like um through the news like you know sexual harassment that was happening there and there was like this major like fall from grace for the guy that owned and a number of restaurants had like you know found out that was going on and like it was really interesting to see how like voraciously that was covered by the media and how people were like so interested in like the that like downfall and and like It was like schadenfreude around.

1:23:18It was. And I think people were like, you know, seemed more shocked than maybe you might have been had you spent time there. Because you could have maybe pieced together that this was like, you know, that something was up there. But just really liked the idea that like what the show that happens every night there that's so alluring and intoxicating is like often like so different than what is actually happening at that place. And so I thought that was a like really rich place just as like a background or as like a place to set a big story of like somewhere where what the presentation is and what the show is, is not what's actually happening.

1:23:55And like reflects a lot about the brothers. One of my favorite recurring images in the series is Jake in his tank top getting like, you know, getting up on, like he has like a cot in the office or whatever. And it's like, this is essentially his life, but it's like, you get to see the wizard behind, you know behind everything and he's like yeah like every night I put on this show but then at the end of the night like I'm basically like it's not glamorous you know who's I think somebody I know somebody in a restaurant business who once told me it's like taking out a mortgage every single night and you know you think about like oh you take a mortgage out on a house like that's one thing to do five times in your life like imagine every night you're like this is either going to be great or I'm going to be in jail.

1:24:43That's like someone said when we took on about show running that it's like being beaten to death by your dreams. And I think that's sort of like how we spoke to a lot of restaurateurs, that sort of same idea of just like, you know. It's kind of like why everybody goes to New York though. Yeah. Right? It's like to have that feeling. I love the way the restaurant that Black Rabbit is conceived of because is like Spotted Pig, both the allure and also like the frustration of the city is like there's always that other room, you know? And there is always like the thing that you can't do and it's so fun to be like, I can't believe I'm just like hanging out and Jay-Z just walked by.

1:25:26Like this is weird. But then you're like, but I'm not up there. You know what I mean? And I don't even know if it really used to bother me because I was in my 20s and early 30s, but it was definitely something you're always aware of in New York. is like you know the people who cut the line yeah you know yeah there's always like a rope that you can't get through yeah and and i mean i think for like those guys they like you know wanted to create the place so that they could be inside of it and that's just like i think is a way which a lot of new yorkers like try to circumnavigate that is like well if i can't get in your party i'm going to create my own yeah you know and and i think like you know there's a scene in episode two where Jason's character there's a flashback where he walks him through the bowels of what that of the restaurant before and he's talking a lot about Mars Bar which was a place that we spent a lot of time he's got a library t-shirt on at some point was that for the library for the bar?

1:26:22and then upstairs in the third floor of the restaurant, I can't remember if we really ever see it but if you ever went to Mars Bar in the bathroom at Mars Bar it was disgusting but it was like all graffiti and then so they like replicated that wall up in the third floor and i think that idea that you could like try and like i mean the false idea that you can try and replicate something from your youth in that way and that it's gonna it's gonna turn out well yeah i think it's a lot of like what the you know what the show is about i think i read in an interview you guys did with i believe it was a creative screenwriting or something it was a screenwriting site talking about taking nightlife and shooting it during the day and showing what it's like during the day and some of my favorite moments are those guys walking around like i think there's one scene that looked like it was in the meatpacking district but maybe it was down by essex or something like that but like these like daytime shots of what it's like to get ready for a life that happens entirely at night and i was wondering if you could talk to me a little bit about whether that was entirely creative or is there also like a production solve there because it's like we don't have to do as many night shoots if we're having a lot of stuff happening during the day and that these guys are all running around the city trying to get their life together I think part of like the stress we wanted to show for Jake is it is like it's kind of like a 24-hour thing right you have your job is at night but then just wanting to set up like how much work it is to to you know run a restaurant and he's like you know sleeping there a lot of the time Roxy's at the market yeah yeah so I think we were sort of interested and then like not to mention like throwing a kid in the mix it's like kind of a um something that you like can't do forever and and so we were interested in that like what is like how how do you how do you grow up and still have that job when you're 20 and 30 maybe that's okay and you can just kind of like grind like that and it's okay but we liked you know for someone like Jake and someone like Vince 50 like like the wear and tear of that really really starts to get you so I think we wanted to we wanted to sort of separate those different times of the day and how they're operating.

1:28:31And then also just like, you know, at night when you see Jake, he's got his jacket on, his shirt on, and he looks great. And during the day, it's like, this guy does not look great. He's barely keeping it together. He's like, he's crumbling. And I mean, I'm sure there were some production considerations, but a lot of times, like, you know, when you're writing, like night stuff just seems so exciting. Sure. And especially like this show, the world of the show was so much about night and then and then when you then you have to ask the whole crew to do it and you have to like get Bateman out there and then it's 3am and you're like can I switch the other night scenes to daytime scenes across the bridge during the day um but but I mean I think also like I worked in production for a really long time and it was like you know in the art department and PA and I remember just like there's something about being in New York where you're like either you're working the graveyard shift and you're ending your day and like the sun's coming up and like the the next shift is coming in and like people are opening the shutters on their stores and there's just like this you know it's just a constant handover of like whose city it is throughout the course of like any day and i think that like that was really interesting to sort of to try and show a little bit of you know yeah i always loved the subtle shift changes of the city like even even those like moments like where there's like brief traffic lulls like even over the course of the day where you're like ah yes the like the 11 a.m to 1 30 p.m break between like this whole thing being covered in ubers and cabs or whatever you know um obviously the show ends with a degree of finality uh i wanted to ask about next stuff to the extent that you're able to talk about it i mean i've i personally would love to see you know jake's continuing adventures as a up-and-coming bartender but what else is kind of what are you guys thinking about right now even if it's not like an explicit project this tv experience has been really exciting you know i think that most my my career so far has been in film and and i've been really lucky in that like a lot of the directors i've worked with i've like gotten to stay on through production but you know It's different in TV to really get to have our hands in all those choices.

1:30:51So I think we have a couple TV things that I'm not sure. Too early to talk about. Too early to talk about. But I think things that are in the same sort of kind of world as Black Rabbit a little bit. And I mean, I think, sorry, I'm monopolizing this. But this show was really personal. And it was like, you know, not to get too far into it. Like I have a brother and it's like, we poured a lot of our life into this thing. And, and, and it was a different sort of creative experience than I've had on some of the other things that are a lot of, I've done a lot of stuff that is like true story based, but not sort of my story.

1:31:31And so I think that one, it was incredibly exciting to get to sort of pour things out like that. it's also made me want to do sort of more of that with Kate and so I think we're looking at projects a little differently now in that way Do you feel like the not even the change but like the this feels like a good bucket for the kind of stuff you want to write like this whether it's limited or not but like this kind of around 7 or 8 hours around this kind of feel being able to write for like adults to watch you know Yeah definitely I mean I think we like talk about this a lot as like an exercise is like you know what are what are the things that are you know we know when we get sent a lot of stuff and we're constantly reading articles and we're like what is the through line of the things that when we read or when when we see we're like oh that's the kind of thing you know that I want to get involved in I mean I think like you know true stories to some extent but really like identifying like um like real emotions and real drama, but being able to portray it in this kind of like theatrical way.

1:32:42So like, you know, a family drama that feels like a blockbuster, like that the emotions and the stakes are so high and so not heightened, but so dramatic and so life or death that they get to be portrayed, you know, in this like kind of big way and, and working with great filmmakers and great actors to, to portray the, real identifiable people making identifiable choices on like the worst days of their life yeah yeah and just like you know we and i i like watching you know heightened stuff too and and find that interesting but i think where we thrive and and where we're most like invested in characters is is seeing things that you can you know identify with emotions and identify with people's choices that they make and or the bad choices yeah and i mean i would just add to that But I think it's like, we really, what I think was very exciting about making this was like how dense you could make the story.

1:33:37And I think that that can be challenging for the audience because you're actually asking like, this is, we did not want to make like second screen, like TV show where it's like, you could fold your laundry while you're watching this. Like we wanted it to be like, if you're willing to pay attention, like there's like, there are going to be a lot of reveals and there's going to be a lot of sort of, the denseness of storytelling was really exciting. and I think that that's something that we want to continue doing. But I also think that's challenging. I don't think there are that many places that are willing to invest in that.

1:34:12And we had tremendous resources on this and I don't know that we'll get that again in this kind of way. But I think wanting to make that kind of labyrinth story is... It's just really cool. I mean, I don't want to keep you guys, but it is one of those shows where the actual physical setting and the environment that the show is placed in perfectly reflects the plotting and also the character's interiority. So that was always like, the thing that I love the most about this show is that these people felt like New Yorkers, but it felt like something that was like, a lot of the things that happen in the show can only happen in New York.

1:34:48Like there's only a subway system like that in this city that works this way. Or there's like, the traffic is like this. Or like all these things that kind of like really impact how these people behave. So I just really, really enjoyed the show a lot. I loved it. Thank you. Kate, Zach, thanks so much for coming by The Watch. Thank you so much. This was a real pleasure, man. We're huge fans. Thanks so much.

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