Creator Brad Ingelsby on the ‘Task’ Finale

23:44Andy Greenwald:And kudos to HBO for giving them the room for it. It made it a richer experience. Martha Plimpton as the tool for this shit captain is, that's also an HBO hallmark. is like, hey, let's get this incredible performer to do something that we've never gotten to see her do before and watch her slide into it like she's been in Sidney Lumet movies for most of her life. She has been in some, but I mean, I think. There's no, and just to put a bow on it, there is no better avatar for the type of humanity that we're talking about here than Mark Ruffalo. Do you remember the way people talked about him When You Can Count On Me came out.

24:27Andy Greenwald:So that movie came out. He was relatively unknown. And anyone who saw that movie or anyone who read about movies fell in love with him, right? Like it's such a deep and intense way. Not necessarily because he was the character that he played in that movie and he played him brilliantly, but because it was just like watching an x-ray of someone's emotional system. Yeah. He's completely alive second to second with the kind of emotions that usually just pass over people's face. like, you know, like fucking wind going through the wheat in Gladiator. And this isn't necessarily his best performance, but it, at least in my recent memory, it's the most Mark Ruffalo performance since then.

25:10Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Because the other thing you and I didn't see coming was that it wasn't just about the steady drumbeat of his humanity, like as a backdrop to all the crime shit, it was all building towards his scene of forgiveness and his speech. And we talked to Brad a lot about that so we don't need to like break it down again. We can talk about that because we get into the last shot. We get into the speech. A lot of stuff with Englishbeat. It's just incredible shit. I'll talk to you next week. It's great seeing you. Do you... Wait, I got to get you on the record for... I got to get you on the record for one more thing about this.

25:41Andy Greenwald:Again, we asked Brad about it but like do you want more tasks? At the end of Mayer we were like why can't we have more of this? And I think they went a little bit down the road. And I don't know the details, but I feel like the takeaway was he would have to top the first one, so maybe we just leave it alone. I want more Inglesby, Delco stuff. I am very open to ruffle it. Like, Tom takes McGinty's job when she retires and runs a new task force or whatever. I do think that one of the things that is amazing about Mare and task is the completeness of the story. Like, I want to leave Tom in that bedroom.

26:31You know, I don't want him to then be like, Emily's been kidnapped, you know? Yeah, I think that's legit. I want my own version of that story. And I feel the same way about Mare, honestly, for as much as I love it. I'm like, the things that happen in Mare are the craziest things that would ever happen in somebody's life. I don't know if you want to do season two of that. Now, that being said, it's right there to have Mare and to have Winslet and Ruffalo in a show together and do a crossover of some kind. And if this is like a Delco crime universe, you know that we'll be the first ones in line.

27:08Andy Greenwald:But I think you're right that like maybe the actual way to do it would be Freddy, you know, is still is the guy doing the drugs. because for as much as the word, like, you know, during the rise of the prestige television era, there was a lot of talk about like novels and books on TV or whatever. And it's like David Simon saying, each episode is a chapter, not the whole book. Okay. Task and Mare are novels in a way that I really, really appreciate and that obviously resonate with us. And part of the beauty of a work of fiction at length, right, is that the characters can go on journeys but have like symmetrical or complimentary arcs.

27:46Andy Greenwald:And what's beautiful to me about Task, among many things, is like Robbie's story is rich, profound, and as you said, complete. It's also, you know, fine. I mean, he's dead. Yeah. Tom is not dead in the narrative, but his story is equally profound, equally complete, and complete because of its relationship to Robbie's story. So I'm kind of talking myself into agreeing with you because they did it. If I could quote a dormant podcast, they stuck the landing on this. Let's get into our interview with Brad Inglesby and Andy will be back later this week to chat with me. I'm sure. Thanks to everybody listening to our task stuff.

28:29It's been really fun talking about it. Greenwald, I'll see you later this week.

28:33Andy Greenwald:Do you want to just say overdose or homeowner one more time? No? Okay. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. Tremphaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis.

29:13Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremphaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit TremphiaRadio.com. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks.

30:00If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. Tremphaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit trimfiaradio.com.

30:39This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a two percenter. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The T-Mobile Home Run Derby is right around the corner. Might be one of the best showcases of pure power in all sports.

31:15Baseball's biggest sluggers, along with some legendary announcers. Pujols, Rizzo, Bonds, Sabathia, Al Duncan. Yeah. Hunter Pence, Matt Faskersian. a whole bunch of people. And it's the one night where you don't swing to make contact. You swing to make history. I'm interested to see what Bond says about this, actually. Anyway, it is all live from Citizens Bank Park in Philly. Watch the T-Mobile Home Run Derby live on Netflix Monday, July 13th at 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific. Andy and I are so honored to welcome Brad Inglesby, the bard of southeastern Pennsylvania, the creator of TASC, the writer of TASC.

31:57one of Andy and I's favorite shows of the year. And you've just watched the finale if you were here, because we are going to be talking explicitly about stuff that happens in the finale and the season of task. Brad, thank you so much for joining us. Oh my God. I'm, I'm honored to be here guys. I always love talking to you. Um, I want to, first of all, I just got to say, I, I found myself like, um, pretty emotionally overwhelmed by the finale and in very unexpected ways. I went into this show really, you know, obviously, like, expecting this amazing prestige kind of crime drama and I think I walked away with something much different and I wanted to kind of ask you about why did you do this show?

32:42And what were the things that you were kind of working out? Because, you know, obviously you like this kind of stuff and you love, like, crime TV, crime stories, but it felt like there was something much deeper at play here for you yeah i think i i really started with you know the tom's character you know the character of tom and the journey of forgiveness and that and and that to me and it goes back to mayor guys i really really can say that mayor was the story in my head from the earliest earliest seeds was about a woman who wasn't going to confront the death of her son and quite literally has to go up to the attic at the end And that to me was what that story was about.

33:23There were a lot of other developments along the way, and it became a whodunit. But that to me was really interesting. And the same for TASC. It really started with Tom Brandes. I had gotten into this idea of a caretaker and how hard it would be to take care of a child with a psychiatric disorder. And I started to go down that road and ask how it would question my faith and my ability to get out of bed every day. and and so that was really what i was interested in and then exploring how that character in some way in in this case through interacting with robbie and the task force has to let go of the anger again he's been holding inside and has to forgive his son and that to me was like the simplest seed of a story and and that was my interest in it was a guy who's lost his faith at the end has to come back.

34:16And I always felt, which I don't know if you, I mean, I hope it resonated with you, but I always felt like at the end of the story, his act of faith was letting Sam go, that he was going to, he allowed Sam to go and he had faith that he was going to be okay. And that was his act of faith at the end was letting Sam go and believing he was going to be okay. It wasn't that Tom was going back to church and kneeling at the altar or saying mass or any of that, it was his act of faith was having a belief that Sam was going to be okay. He wanted to keep Sam, but he had to let him go. And so that's what really started the story for me.

34:52And then I had to fill in all the other action beats and plot beats along the way, guys.

34:56Andy Greenwald:So Brad, first of all, because my mic wasn't really working, I haven't spoken yet. So thank you for the show and thank you for joining us. I'm interested to hear you say that your relationship to the show was Tom's journey. And I think that one of the things that was really rewarding and surprising about watching the series week to week was the slow reveal that this really was Tom's story. That what we thought was a two-hander ended up being a one-hander, if you will. That the logline that we got excited about, this is heat in Philly. A, wasn't really in downtown Philly. And B, wasn't really about two guys running toward each other.

35:33Andy Greenwald:It was about one guy moving forward. So since you've known that from the beginning, I'm curious what your logline was when you spoke to Mark Ruffalo about joining the cast. When you talked to Tom Pelfrey, how did you communicate the show to them in a way that you could tell us now that we've seen it all? Yes, well, you know, look, I did say to them, listen, it's a collision course of these two guys, but I always knew when Robbie was going to die. And I said that, you know, what always, you know, what I always felt strongly about was that a part of Tom's own journey to releasing the anger was meeting Robbie and seeing Robbie's sacrifice, right?

36:15Realizing in the end, when he sees the picture that Kath gives him, it's like, oh, wow, he did have a plan. He knew what he was doing going up there all along. He wasn't going up there to get away. He was going up there as a sacrifice, you know, in some way to better his family. And so I always said that to those two guys. I never shied away from the collision course. And I do think, and look, I'll also say this. On the page, it was probably more Tom's journey on the page. But Tom Pelfrey was so good that, and I'll also tell you another story. He was so good that I got done editing the sixth episode, and it always ended with Maeve getting the money.

37:00And I thought, wow, we're missing something with Robbie. We have to give him a moment of triumph or something. And then I went back into the dailies and we found this random little eight second clip of him laughing. I think Jeremiah, our director, was off camera, you know, making a joke or something. And it's why that episode ends with Pelfrey instead of Amelia, because I just felt like the audience had become so attached to him. And look, it's the same problem I had with Evan in Mare. On the page, Evan's character was good, but it wasn't that good, I'll be honest. And Evan came in and was so charming that when we got to editing the fifth episode of Mare, I went, dude, we're really in trouble.

37:42An audience is going to hate us. They love this character so much. And I felt the exact same way about Robbie, that he was a very compelling character on the page. But Tom just elevated this character. And he was really in everyone's heart. And so I think sometimes, Andy, and you're a writer too, you know this, that a character, an actor is able to bring out a character in ways you can't expect or predict. And Pelfrey really did that. And so, you know, it's one of those worries that I had when I actually watched the episode six is like, Tom is such a compelling presence. what is an episode without him going to feel and look like and how are we going to carry it through and it's it's why i um i hope that ending sequence in the courtroom and and and the stuff with made that there's still enough of that emotional investment and attachment to carry the audience

38:33Andy Greenwald:through it's also a testament to mark ruffalo's performance and just the innate humanity and humility that he brings to every performance because you you watch those first few episodes and you're like, well, this isn't a movie star performance. This is like the bass drum, the heartbeat of the show. And then it's only when the snare drum drops out of the mix that you realize that that's been keeping you alive the whole time. And you somehow coaxed that, I don't know if you coaxed that performance, you encouraged that performance, or he just found the rhythm to realize that the star of the show has been here the whole time.

39:06Andy Greenwald:The main character has been here. You know, I would always say to Mark, it's such a humble performance. I think if you look, as you said, if you look at the early episodes, he's really letting everybody else shine. Allison's, you know, all of her humor and Kathleen and Martha, he allows them to shine in a way. And like you said, he's sort of almost very quiet in those early scenes. And then only then does he rise up. I think only when I always said that I think he's only activated really when he thinks he's going to die. And he says, I need to call my son. Yeah. And I think if you look at his performance after that point, he's way more active in a way that we haven't seen.

39:47That's a turning point. When he thinks he's going to die, he then says, I have to call my son. I have to say something to him. And that's the turning point. And every scene with him after that, he's more activated, he's more aware, he's more present. and so that I felt like was the turning point in his character in those moments with Robbie when he you know he's starting to feel like he could die he starts to get activated in a way that we haven't seen before yeah it's awesome because I think a different performer well I'm guessing but I think a different performer might be like I need to do something pretty cool in these first few episodes and I don't know if he did this on purpose or if this is just a trick of the light and I noticed did or what but like I feel like I may have even mentioned this to you when we did the event a couple of weeks ago he acts the first half of the season up through five really with very heavy eyelids like his eyes are almost closed and it's like his eyes open after and even the last shot of this show is him looking up and finally seeing like life again I don't know if he was like I have that in my back pocket I'm gonna break it out for the last shot of this series but it worked man i was like holy shit i can't believe this just happened no he said you know and i also think he he acted with like just the you know i always especially in the early episodes could feel the weight of the world on his shoulders the way he walked around and like he was able to bring all of that trauma and guilt and regret and pain into into those scenes and you So every scene, even when he was, you know, even when it was a procedural scene, you felt all the family stuff on him.

41:31And that's what's so great about the release, I think, at the end, is that it's sort of he's able to let go of all that stuff. And as an audience, we've experienced it with him just in the way he walks around, interacts with people. And so I'm really glad you felt that way at the end, that there was some kind of release or letting go. or, you know, I think that's what we intended it to be. It was there, you know, I wanted it to be a hopeful ending. Yeah, I mean, I was, so I wanted to ask you about six and seven, but especially the mechanics of some of the more crime fiction genre aspects of it.

42:07Because I think one of the things that was liberating about watching this was letting go of, you know, being a little bit of a granular realist about everything and like, what is the exact kind of like procedural doctor and these guys should be following. And yeah, almost feeling like this was more like a bunch of people that were not in control of their own lives and something was pushing them to these locations and having them collide. And how much do you let what you want to say about human life dictate the crime? stuff and how much do you let the crime stuff dictate what you want to say about humanity it's always it's always the i'm always interested in a group of characters and then the crime is just an excuse it's just an excuse to get them together i mean true and i think every time i get to writing a procedural scene i cringe and go oh my god what can i do to possibly make it interesting Like these scenes kill me.

43:12I hate procedural scenes. And if you, if you look at task in particular, I think my remedy is always to add some humor, like, you know, Martha Plimpton. So we're getting these like procedural beats, but they're always a laugh or a joke because I'm really, you know, I hate to say this, Chris, I'm really not interested in the procedural stuff. I mean, I shouldn't say that. I know an audience needs to follow a story and you need to move the ball down the field. But I'm really, really interested in the way these people interact and the way an incident changes their life or situation, how they react in the face of suffering, how they react in the case of Tom in the wake of losing his faith.

44:00Like, those are the things that get me out of bed every morning. The procedural elements, I'm telling you, they're always hard to write. And yet I know there's a need to have them. But the thing that gets me excited and the reason I got into this business, it was to write, I wanted to write characters. I wanted to understand how they interact with each other, how they respond in the face of losing someone they love. those are the things that get me excited. And the other stuff is just an excuse to spend time with them. And I really, truly feel that way. And I think that's why what you're getting at is that even when we have those procedural scenes, like they're quick and fast and we don't go into the computer screens or laptops or cell phones, we almost just like, I'll just quickly snatch the clue that gets us to the next scene of interacting with these people I care about, you know?

44:55Andy Greenwald:We get it. You love the beauty and the poetry of the game. you're not an X's and O's guy. You're like Kevin Petullo. Yeah. Right? Like, you're just... You just like the assortment of players on offense. The over-under for Kevin Petullo references was seven minutes in Andy. You don't need to get them to run in the same direction or in opposite directions. So a lot of the conversation about the season, obviously, circles themes of forgiveness. The word penance comes up specifically in this finale. Tom does not judge Grasso. He leaves that for himself to do. He forgives Ethan. but Brad, you're the creator of the show and inevitably you doled out some justice especially in the finale some fates felt like you're balancing the scales, Aaron's bodies are covered, Perry dies in the water as well, others were surprising The Dark Hearts did not get forgiven I would say that That's fair They had some heavy losses I guess the specific question is in the role of creator and and judge jury and executioner.

45:57Andy Greenwald:Why is Grasso left alive? Why was it important for you to give him that arc and even to give him the chance, give us the chance to understand him more this episode via the introduction of his sister? Yeah. Well, I thought that scene was really important and that was one we, that, and that was one that we had planned and Lily Kay came in as a wonderful actor. She came in and she, and she, and God bless her. She came in and did one day of work. and that scene was always in there because one of the things we we um talk about a lot on set is hey we don't have to agree with the decision these people make we don't have to agree with a grasso or or a robbie but i feel as a writer that it's my responsibility to understand why And that's what that scene with Grasso and his sister did, I think, was to at least understand why, how he got in this situation in the first place, and the shame he feels about his decision.

46:59And I think, you know, one of the things my uncle, he was a, you know, he was a priest and he would hear confession. And one of the things he said to me was, I'd be in the booth and the same people would come every single week. And they would say, you know, I cursed at my mom or I lied to my spouse. And he would say, you know what, I'm not going to give you any penance. I'm going to talk to God on your behalf. I don't want you to worry about these things. I'm going to talk to God. well they came back every single week with the same sins it was they wanted the penance right um and the shame was so overwhelming and corrosive and you know i grew up catholic and and and um uh it's still something i deal with and and i feel like i was exploring a bit of myself in grasso and trying to just understand things i think that's a part of his journey along the way he's He's asking Tom these questions along the way.

47:55He wants to believe again. He wants to have a faith. And I think what I was getting at with Tom is that almost the worst punishment that Grasso could have is to have to deal with it on his own. It's almost worse than death in a way for Grasso is to have to live with the consequences of his actions. I'm not going to let you off the hook, Grasso. So I'm not going to give you – I'm going to let you sit with what you've done on your own. And I think that's something that I learned from my uncles, that the people, they were always beating themselves up. It didn't require him to have any penance or dole out any penance.

48:34They were doing it themselves way worse than any penance he could give them, and that really resonated with me. And I felt like that was something Grasso, who I felt grew up in the Catholic church in South Philly, had that experience, that institution that he felt had let him go or had let him down. I felt like that would be a punishment worth. I think it would be worse than him actually passing away in that last scene. It's just the ability. He has to go on with his life and deal with the consequences of what he's done.

49:02Andy Greenwald:You know, I did want to ask you specifically about Catholicism because while I may recognize the Delco accents, that is not a church I'm familiar with, certainly growing up in. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about your experiences, like young Brad, if you will, like, were there elements of growing up in the church that excited you or surprised you or intrigued you in the same way that the comic books maybe you were reading did or books? Like, is there something that lit you up with questions or the size of the world or the beauty in the world? Because, yeah, I just love to hear your thoughts on that because it's baked into the show in a way that's fascinating.

49:37And yeah, it really is. I mean, it was something that, you know, that was the one role my father had. He wasn't a disciplinarian, but he's like, if you're going to live under this roof, you have to go to church every week. I don't care if it's Saturday night or Sunday morning, you are going to go to church. And so it was such a part of my upbringing. And what I loved about the church was the compassion, the inclusivity of the Bible. And yet what I couldn't understand, it just felt so inconsistent to me, right? That there were passages that I could understand as being this all-merciful God. And then there was Job and this, you know, and then there were other passages that I couldn't make sense of.

50:19Like, how can that exist and that exists? And, and I don't think I've ever gotten the answers, but I, you know, what I always say to my uncle, and there's a great quote by a rabbi, I think it's Herschel, I may have mentioned to you guys before, but he said, I'm closest to God when I'm asking the questions as opposed to when I think I know the answers. and that has been my journey is I don't know, I don't have an answer, but there are so many things I love about the church and so many things that make no sense to me. And I think the older I get, there's a distance between those things, but I feel like I'm always on the journey.

50:59And that's why I meet with my uncle all the time. So there were so many things about the church, Andy, that I loved. Oh my God, there's a sense of kindness. Take the poorest among us and bring them in and care for them. And then there were other passages I would read and go, wait, but that doesn't seem like the same person. And that's the magic and the torturous nature of the Bible. It's all interpretation. I could read a passage and think one thing. And it's actually a quote we used in Mare. I think in the opening episode, the priest says, our idea of God, it tells us more about ourselves than it does about him.

51:32I think that's so true. I want to believe that God is all merciful. And so that's how I think of it. but that but but i have a lot of friends and and my father has a different view of things and so it's just always really intrigued me and there are so many things i love about it and so many things that still to the day make absolutely no sense to me um but i'm on the journey always and i love to ask the questions and i think in asking the questions there's a reward there you know uh

51:57Andy Greenwald:to keep it if you did find the answer would you would you announce it on the watch podcast could that be a watch exclusive? I think that would be great for our numbers and our lives. And our salvation. I don't mean to keep us on God corner, but I wanted to mention to you that one of the things that, early in the season, we got an email from a viewer who talked about Richard Rohr to us in this email. And I bought Falling Upward and started reading it and was obviously struck by the heavy use of the word task in the opening passages of it. And frankly, Roar writing about storytelling, but also this idea of the two tasks in life and the two halves of your life, I thought served as an incredible lens through which to view the series.

52:51I wanted to know if you could talk to me a little bit about Roar and whether or not that was a structural thing, or was it just a reference? Because obviously a character brings it up. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I really know Roar. I really know his work and it was recommended to me by my uncle. I really know his work through the universal Christ, which was my experience with Roar. And I think I know what you're getting at. There's like the task of understanding your place. It's like you build up your identity and then you have to figure out what fills up your identity. Like what fills up your heart basically.

53:26Yes, exactly. Well, I think the reason we put Roar in there is because it's a conversation I've had with my uncle a number of times. And this idea of Christ as being almost like the love that exists between people. And that's always really interested me. As a kid, I was taught one thing. There's this guy in heaven who's waiting to judge you, the ultimate arbiter. And what I found so appealing about Roar was, wait a second, what if that's a very myopic way of viewing God? What if it's a much more inclusive Christ? And that it's almost sort of the love force that exists between all these people.

54:08And I just found that to be such an interesting idea. And it's something that I've had many, many conversations about with my uncle. And I really think it's sort of how he views God now. And he was raised in the church that believed, hey, if you sin, you go to confession. And there's someone keeping track in heaven. And you're going to have to face that person eventually. And so I've always been eager to learn about other ideas of God and see how it, I don't know, lines up with my ideas over the years. And so it wasn't that Tass was born out of Roar. It was more that my experience with Roar was something I felt that Tom would have explored as a character.

54:49that I really felt like just given his identity as a priest, and I always felt he was a very inclusive and progressive priest. I felt like, oh, that's something that he would have read. He would have read Richard Rohr. He would have listened to his things. And so it felt like it was in the zone of what Tom would listen to. And so that's why I put Rohr in there. And so it wasn't as if Tass was born out of Rohr, but it did feel like I felt strongly that Tom would know Rohr's work and be someone that read his books. I mean, either way, the best art is the art that makes you read other stuff and go look for other stuff.

55:27So I just thought it was really cool because the finale to me was as much about kids as it was about the characters that were having gunfights and going to jail. And you wind up at the end with Ethan, Emily, these very obvious shots of these people, Sam and Maeve and the kids all starting kind of like a second half of their life in some ways. And I just thought it was really fascinating that even with, you know, Robbie going down and, and, and Lizzie going down and the dark hearts going down and Grasso's going to prison and all these people, but there is this like rebirth at the end of the episode.

56:07Yeah. Well, I think that was like, I'm really glad you said it because it was so important for me to have, it was really important to really give the kids a voice. And that was something that like, and, and I can tell you, there were many times just to give you a peek behind the curtain where I, I felt like, you know, we could have in the edit, we could have gotten rid of some of those scenes, you know, that Emily with the guidance counselor and, you know, just, just little scenes like Harper asking Maeve about the date. And there were so many little scenes that, that it, if I would have submitted the episode to HBO, they probably wouldn't have missed it.

56:44But I felt like if we're going to talk about the actions of the fathers, well, we have to give voice to the kids that have to be a part of it. And they have to speak with honesty. And we have to see the impact of these actions have on the kids. It's just so important. And so that was something we really, really were constantly trying to keep in the show. So I'm really glad that resonated with you. And I thought one of the most meaningful scenes in the show was when Emily said, all I'm ever supposed to feel is gratitude. I'm never allowed to have an honest emotion. I'm just supposed to feel one thing all the time.

57:21And God forbid I feel something else. I'm not grateful anymore. And that was one scene that I really was like, we have to keep this in the show. It speaks to what the show is really about. And I know the plot stuff needs to be there. But in the end, it's my hope that the aggregate of all these little things that we're trying to keep will have an impact at the end of the show, you know? So we really, really, really wanted to keep the kids scenes in there.

57:48Andy Greenwald:I think they're incredibly rewarding and they're incredibly important. And like a moment ago, you talked about how, you know, you're torn between the prose of the investigation and the investigative beats and then like the poetry of the deeper meaning, but let's make this a Trinity. I don't know if you've ever heard of that arrangement of things before. But like, I think the third piece is what you're talking about, which is that every time you set off on a journey as a writer, what I'm really responding to is that you, the car just swerves, uh, like a misaligned, whatever towards more life. And I find that so, uh, rare in the way TV is made these days, those scenes do get cut.

58:21Andy Greenwald:And sometimes I feel like it's almost like, it's like an extra course in a meal that like, you can't help but introduce Sarah, the daughter and oh we don't like her oh but now she has a backstory and now she has empathy and now she has nuance and now we were she's a part of the fabric of the show like i think one of the most if i may like brad beats of the finale is that the fucking magician kid is now babysitting like it's it it feels good you know to see the depth of this and i i i wonder i i get there's sort of like two parts but you totally could have cut that and it wouldn't i know but you get this lovely moment and i think thank you guys that actually means a lot to me because i like there are battles we have and i'm so uh it it makes my heart warm that you guys like have picked up on the magician being their babysitter but i just wonder if like in your writing like do you do you trace that to some like innate curiosity advice you were given once um are you just a misaligned chassis that's driving off the road?

59:20Andy Greenwald:Like, do you digress in your office, like giving us these, you know, writing backstories that even that we don't even see? I wonder how you calibrate that interest. Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's always like, you know, one of the things that I like to say early in the process is why everyone needs to earn a seat at the table. Everyone needs to be here for a reason. And it can't just be a funny line or a funny scene. Like if we're going to have Leo, he needs to pay off in some way. If we're going to have Sarah, she needs to pay off in some way. And so, and it's important to me that that payoff is unexpected.

59:58It's, you know, it's, oh, we thought you were one person. And then we learn a little bit more, like you were saying, Andy, oh, we hate Sarah. She's so nasty in the second episode. Well, and we learn a little bit about her. We understand her a little bit more. and suddenly we look at her a little differently. And so I love just trying to, I love trying to understand or expect what an audience expects and then subverting it in some way that isn't cheap, but subverting it in some way that feels earned and surprising. And it is important to me that at the end of the show, I could make a case for every character having been in the show.

1:00:35Well, they weren't there just to give us a laugh. It was like Leo was there. And the reason I love Leo is because what I always said was important about him and why we fought to keep him was he lets us see Emily as a kid. Every other scene, she's just with her dad. She's working. She's taking care of her dad. Yes. And it's like he gives us access to what she might look like if she was a normal teen not dealing with all this crisis. She smiles. She giggles. She gets drunk. She throws up. She gets asked on a date. It allowed us the glimpse of side of her that is the what could have been if this family.

1:01:12And so I really want to be able to say at the end of the show, everyone had a reason. They all gave us something. And it's really important to me that I can say that at the end. And sometimes they do lose a bit in the edit or the payoff isn't what you imagine. But I really try. And I think it comes from a love of human beings. I really, like, I really love these characters so much. And, you know, I want more Leo. I wanted more scenes with Aaliyah. I wanted more scenes with Alice and Lizzie. And, like, you know, ultimately, I didn't get to have all those scenes. But if it was up to me, it would have been, like, 18-hour show.

1:01:49And there would be scenes with Lizzie and Aaliyah hanging out and getting to know each other. You know, I love that.

1:01:53Andy Greenwald:I feel like you're triggering Chris. You keep saying more Alice and more Lizzie. I'm watching him. I'm watching him just bite his cheek. Chris, do you just want to go ISO on this for a minute? I mean, she was just too beautiful for this world, you know? She was too... It is what it is. Like, you know, I don't think I could have handled it if she had found out Grosso was the mole, you know? But like, Brad, legitimately, you have Amelia and you have Allison and you have Fabian, and they're none of them. They're not just not from Delco. They're not from the United States of America. And yet these are three of the greatest...

1:02:28Andy Greenwald:I don't even know the word. inhabitations of people that we have all met or known that I've ever seen on the screen. The only question is how, and yes, they are amazing actors, but if you could just talk about like the, the, the initiation process, the hazing, like the moment behind the monitors, when you saw Alison do that scene at the bar that Chris is now tearing up thinking about, like it feels like some sort of like wizardry. Well, listen, I, you know, as you said, a lot of incredible talent there. Um, but I think a couple of things, and, and I think we talked a little bit about this when I was on the panel with you guys is, you know, after we hire the actors, we immediately bring in the dialect coach, Suzanne, who they all know, and she's just wonderful.

1:03:10And so that process starts really, really early. And, and, and we usually identify one person or one voice really that an actor can attach to. And Amelia was able to, I forget her girl's name, but it was a woman from Ridley and Alison had one too. And the other thing I think is so important guys is like, we shoot the show here. So Alison is here in Delco. She's driving around to bars. She's going Fabian and they're going to bars. And I think I, you know, I can't quantify how that, how that, you know, how much that means, but it means a lot. And so it's, it's a mix of incredible talent. And like, I mean, I mean, the crazy thing is, is that all three of them could speak in the Delco accent and for fab, like a South Philly thing.

1:04:02And then the minute you said cut instantly go back to British. And that was Kate's gift to just instantly go back. And I don't know if it's a part of their training. I, but it is, it is a gift. And, you know, I can bring them into Delco, I can drive them to the bars or get them set up with people I have. but I think I just am always amazed that, you know, at, at the ability to switch on and off that quickly. I don't know. I mean, I, I love, I love them all. Now that he's come out of retirement, I would love to see Daniel Day Lewis in one of these shows, but not, not turn the switch off, you know, and just be like walking around being a guy from Philly all day.

1:04:43Yeah.

1:04:44Andy Greenwald:Also, I just, I'm just watching while you're answering, I'm just watching Chris and I just feel like there's like the gears are turning that like there are intimacy coordinators now on like sexy movies and like could there be a regional coordinator or like just like smoke one cigarette outside of bad brother like once a week with these guys just to help keep them focused you know I got you Chris I got you covered man we're gonna bring you in the next one you know we this is a good actually opportunity to ask you about this where you know it's a Philly show it's broadly a Delco show I think that when I've talked to people about this series or before it came out or when the trailer dropped, the one with GNR in it, like there was this anticipation, at least I had this anticipation, it's like, oh, this is gonna be like an urban thriller.

1:05:28Like this is, we're gonna get, and it is pastoral, you know? Like most of the, I would say second half of the season is in the woods, you know? And all of the most important moments happen in nature. um aaron's death sam's swimming lesson you know robbie's quarry jump and obviously the huge shoot out up at the at the um summer home the cabin like that is an element of philadelphia that i don't think people really know is that like you go down a block and you're in the middle of the forest um but could you talk a little bit about exploring the more rural parts and then also working with Jeremiah and Sally because I feel like they really leaned into the natural beauty of the city but also like the poetry of like seeing wildlife seeing foliage seeing like all this stuff yeah so so it's funny because I would always say like hey it's a Delco show not a Philly show like I think you know I think there were like so many of these log lines I think were written and it was like it's Philly and I was like oh boy if people come into this thinking it's going to be like a urban thriller like you said chris this is going to be a huge disappointment um but i always felt like you know again it was born out of character truly i i can i'll be honest and say i never really started saying i want to make a show about of about the woods in delco and and and in the same way i never wanted to tell a story about vagrants in the fifth episode it was born out of, oh, my uncle, he's an ex-priest.

1:07:03He's a birdwatcher now. It starts with the character and grounding that character in a way I can understand. And then out of that character, only out of the character, am I taking the themes and stretching them. And the same with Robbie, I felt like, okay, who is this guy? He's a trash man. He kind of lives out in the woods. Oh, he has a quarry. He swam in with his brother. This was their place of heaven that's been snatched away from them that he's always trying to recreate in some way. And so it was only out of that idea, Chris, that all the wood stuff came into play. And I think I'm always operating out of a place of character.

1:07:42Again, I truly never said to myself, I want to make a show that's out in the woods. And it was like, where would Robbie go that I believe? Oh, he'd have a little swimming hole where him and Cliff would go. Oh, that's cool. Oh, it's a place of lost heaven. Well, that's where Aaron could die later, right? And so everything is born out of me trying to understand a character in a very granular way. And then only when I have that character in my head, then I'm stretching all these themes out. Like that's where the vagrant came from. Oh, what if Tom saw this bird? It wasn't supposed to be there. Oh, now I can use that as an entry point for him to bridge the gap between him and Robbie.

1:08:23And then I could use it again. And then it was the same with Robbie. Oh, I love this core. How can I bring the quarry back? Oh, that's where he used to go with Billy. Oh, that's where Aaron goes to meet him, right? And so I think when you're starting from a place of character, all those other elements kind of, it's like a snowball. They start to come into you, but it's all coming out of the character. You know, I rarely start from a place of, oh, I want to tell a story about this place. I always say, I want to tell a story about this guy or this girl. And then what's their life like? And how do I use those things?

1:08:53Andy Greenwald:But I do have a question about the place, specifically because this was true in Mare as well, but it's something that I kept noticing and thinking about while watching Task was you and Jeremiah and Sally's camera specifically really showcased the relative age of this part of the country, right? compared to certainly where we live now in California and that the houses and the towns and the streets have a certain look that is almost unchanged. So like Ray and Shelly's house in California, that's like 1.2 million. Like that's a beautiful house. You know what I mean? Not that I've lived in California too long.

1:09:29Andy Greenwald:Don't tell Shelly. She might've done some things differently. It's like fentanyl. Just dress it up a little bit. That's easy to Shelly. But yeah, just knock down these connecting walls and you've got to. But what's changed is the, you know, to go back to the Richard Ward, the content of the vessel, right? Like people are still yearning for community, still living in homes, but now there's fentanyl and now the middle class has been destroyed. And there is a, your camera doesn't flinch from showing that contrast. And, you know, you, in between making these series, I think you moved back home full-time and you live there now.

1:10:07Andy Greenwald:And so I wondered just what you feel or if you feel like a responsibility to this place, how to depict it, and how you choose to depict it. A hundred percent, Andy. It's, you know, it's, you know, honestly, people say, oh, did you have a tough time doing a follow-up to Mare? And I said, yeah, because I'm telling another story about Delco. It's not that I feel the, you know, there's obviously the burden of Mare, but also it's just a responsibility. I have to live here. I have to walk these streets. I have to bump into these people. So it's incredibly important to me. And I think what I, you know, truly what I, the most important thing to me when I write these stories about this place is that I hope the people here appreciate them.

1:10:52And I think what I'm always trying to do is give a voice to a very specific community of people that I don't think we often get to see on screen and to show the kind of the heroism of the day-to-day life here. What I always admire, and it's really the character of Robbie, is I just love this idea of he's living a life he never imagined, in some ways hasn't asked for. But he's getting up every day. He's going to work really early in the morning. He's doing a job he doesn't love out of a sense of duty. And I've always, that seems really simple, but I've always found that to be incredibly heroic.

1:11:36Like, I'm going to get up. I'm going to tie my shoes. I'm going to go to a job I don't love. I'm going to work with people I don't like. I'm going to do something over the course of the day I really don't want to be doing. And I'm doing it because I love my wife or my kids and I want them to have a better life or at least a life that's a little bit, a little different. And like, I've just always loved that idea. And I've always just, I've always found that simple idea incredibly heroic. And I've also always thought those lives are as complex as other lives that get depicted on screen. And I always want to try to give those lives the dreams and the fears, the anxieties, and the complexity and the layering that I think they deserve.

1:12:22And so it's really important to me that I can give a speech here in Delaware County and not get up and get in some way harassed. I want people to feel proud of these shows. That is incredible. I think it's probably the most important thing to me, truly the most important thing to me. I want people to feel like I've honored this place and that the characters do justice to them. That's really important to me. I was wondering, you know, some of my favorite moments of this season of the series was moments that were unexplained or moments where I feel like you didn't overwrite it. And the thing that kind of haunted me was Aaron looking up at those kids partying up on the ledge.

1:13:13And obviously, like, it becomes a moment of like, you know, I need these kids to recognize that I'm being attacked by Perry. so hopefully they'll hear me but before that it seems like she's remembering being with billy and robbie as a kid and there are a bunch of moments like that where you don't have somebody go back and say like sarah and emily don't go right up to rob tom after the the sort of sentencing hearing and said say well what led you to that statement dad and how are you feeling about it now like you let these things breathe but as a writer is it hard to edit yourself or do you look to maybe cut in post and say okay like this this doesn't need this extra beat yeah yeah i think it's a it's a great question chris i think some of it is an editing going okay i i think we achieved it without having to say those things but i also think some of it is like you know setting yourself up in the in in the right way like you were mentioning that scene with aaron like you're exactly right that she's looking up and remembering a time that might have happened there and and how much it's changed now but i think so much of that emotion that you're that you're so rightly getting out of that scene is is that we laid in the backstory of these people and if you've done the backstory and you understand how much billy meant to her and to robbie then you're able to get away with saying so little and it's the same thing with tom and his family is like it's it's it's the layering you do even before you bring the audience into the story.

1:14:47That's what I love about Task and Mare is even before the story, even before you bring the audience in, so much of the story has happened. In Mare, oh, well, it's Dawn's daughter's been kidnapped. It's been a year. I haven't gotten any clues. The town that embraced me as a kid is turning against me. All that's already happened. And that's before we even jump into the story. And the same with Tom Brandes. even before we enter the story, Ethan's been in prison for, I think he says, like, you know, 12 months or something like that. And so I think you can get those emotions if you've done the backstory and you've layered it in.

1:15:22And the interactions so far are packed with all that backstory and pain and trauma. So when you get to those moments, a look can say a whole lot, you know?

1:15:32Andy Greenwald:Okay, yes. And I completely agree with you. You do the work. We fall in love with these characters slowly and then like going broke then all at once. Right. And so that I don't even, so that suddenly Mark Ruffalo is making peanut butter. Or in some cases instantaneously. Right. In the case of certain, certain cops. Um, but so, so all of a sudden Mark Ruffalo is making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and I don't know why I'm sobbing on my couch. Like, I don't know how you did that alchemy, but there are, as another example, just to bring this conversation back to the finale where you did lay down a marker, whether we knew it was coming or not, in terms of how you set out to make the show.

1:16:09Andy Greenwald:And at some point you must've realized in order to pull off this thing, I'm going to have to write this statement. I'm going to have to write the speech for this actor. And it's going to have to anchor the entirety of the series. Let me step on your answer by saying you fucking did it because that was awesome. And it was incredible. And maybe I'm jet lagged and miss my kids, but that hit like a sledgehammer. That said - Thank you, Andy. That means a lot to me, man. How did you prepare for it? Did you agonize? Did it flow? It was all heading towards a speech, and you've backed yourself into that quarter.

1:16:48Andy Greenwald:Can I also just say, I love the fact that Tom reads it and doesn't have some prepared, memorized monologue or pretend to throw away the statement. He's a guy who would not be able to do a three-minute monologue. like that you know that's it well and it's funny you say it chris that's exactly what mark said to me too i would have i would have written this down yeah i said oh yeah i mean 100 you know and so that was a decision we both made i think it was very i mean it was really hard andy for all the reasons you said in that you as you said i've been i've been walking myself into a corner this whole time And now I have to pay it off.

1:17:31And I thought what was my way into it as a structure was that I wanted Tom to be, I felt like it was very important. It was important for him to acknowledge how hard it was first. That was the way, that was my way in, was for him to be like, I'm going to tell you how incredibly hard it was. And I felt like because he was honest about that side of things, and there were some really painful moments there, I didn't put the name tag on because I didn't want the parents to think that was Ethan's dad. And some of that was just reading testimonials from parents and snatching those things out. I think there was another part of the speech where he says, you know, the hardest part was the weekend, where we had them on our own.

1:18:15We couldn't drop them off to anybody. And that was something that I read. And when I read it, I thought, oh, my God, of course. like the weekend would be the scariest all these parents are coming to pick their kids up and saying it's friday guys let's go home and and you and then you get mark ruffle going holy shit i gotta go home yeah i gotta go home for two days like and and and you read some of those things that just instantly hits you in a way where you go oh my god that is like i can never write anything that good that has to be experienced and um and so i thought for me it was really important to be honest at the jump.

1:18:47And so that when he says, but there was also so much joy, that part, it was able to resonate as well. And so I really thought, well, let's have him say how hard it was and let's have him be really, really honest about the experience of being Ethan's dad. And we're going to hear the truth in that side. So that when he says, but it was also so beautiful that we also believe that equally. And when I got that in my head, I felt like I could write the speech. And it was even longer on the page, if you can, because it's long in the show, but it was even longer on the page. But as you were getting at earlier, Chris, I felt like, well, let's do longer and let's get in the edit and we'll see which pieces can be trimmed.

1:19:29And then you have an actor like Mark, who's just so honest, who can get up and deliver a speech like that and be on camera for that long. and the whole scenes about him having to give the speech. But yeah, I felt like it was what the show was about. That if I could ask myself, what is the show about? It's about a guy who can't let go of the anger, that quite literally has to open the door to his house and let his son in. And that to me was what the show was about. So I had to land that plane in the last episode. And thank God I had Mark Ruffalo there to do it with me.

1:20:07Andy Greenwald:the show taught us many things. I feel like we learned about Canadian real estate. We learned about how not to have your heart explode when you jump to a freezing quarry. The other thing that I did learn, I have to say, is I learned that task forces happen quite frequently. I mean, Grasso's whole, the whole betrayal is revealed because he was on another one. So inevitably, we have to ask you, is there a chance of another task force? I mean, they do get, they do happen in the wild. We asked you this about Mare, but we have to ask you again, not even so much as HBO going to say, like, do more, but do you want to do more?

1:20:41Andy Greenwald:Do you feel that there is more here? You know, I, you know, I, I do feel like I could tell another story of past. I, I, again, and I, I think it's, as I was getting out of, it's less about the plot and me being excited to get to know another task force of people and getting to spend time with them and be and getting to create new characters that i can go on a journey with and the idea that wait i get to build another task force like alice and oliver and uh and fab and uh and of course ruffalo and tussauds and martha like and the idea that i would get to bring them back is really exciting to me and like it's my dream to write these characters in this play.

1:21:22So if there was an appetite, like 100%, I would do it because it's my, as I was getting at it, it's why I get out of bed every day as a writer, I get to write characters. And this story specifically allows me to introduce another, like a completely new set of characters that we have to have to live with and experience a case with. And so that really gets me excited coming soon on hbo mother club the story of the dark hearts after they've been decimated by they don't make it out too good here no i mean yeah those guys i because vincent goes too i don't even know what their their leadership structure is like anymore uh brad thank you so much for joining us man thank you for this series thank you for for mayor and for for task because they've been really fun to talk about really fun to interrogate and even though Andy and I would have season tickets anyway because of where they're set.

1:22:15Like, I think they're some of our favorite television of the last few years. Oh, thank you guys. So appreciate you having me on the show, man.

1:22:31Uncovered windows can make your home feel up to 20 degrees hotter. Stay cool and save up to 50 % off custom window treatments during the 4th of July mega sale at blinds.com. From outdoor shades to room darkening blinds, finding the perfect fit is easy. Get free samples, expert design help, and professional measure and install services, or DIY with confidence and support every step of the way. Shop up to 50 % off site-wide, plus huge savings on doorbusters right now during the 4th of July mega sale at blinds.com. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for$15 a month is back.

1:23:09So I thought it would be fun if we made$15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.

1:23:22Andy Greenwald:Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12 month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms.