Damon Lindelof on ‘The Fantastic Four: First Steps’

21:13Andy Greenwald:The only person... I mean, now we are living in an era, boy. Let's just make this podcast older. Kaya, cover your ears. This might be like the end of Last Crusade. Like she might just start aging by listening to us talking. That Springsteen's like lost... You have chosen. You should not be producing this podcast, Gaia. The Springsteen Lost Tapes Volume 2 is just like the six albums he made in the 90s but changed his mind about? Yes. That's crazy. It is. And, you know. I don't think the Wilburys did that. I don't think so either. All right. Well, we've really, this podcast isn't afraid of the big questions, including.

21:49Andy Greenwald:Oh, God. What did we think of Fantastic Four First Steps? Yes. So, all right. Let's talk about it. Yes. Fantastic Four First Steps came out this past weekend. did quite well at the global box office. It did. The MCU is back. It's back, baby. Did it, was it not? I liked Thunderbolts. Did it go away? Yeah, I liked, it's called The New Avengers. It's not officially. What do you mean? They didn't officially change the name of the movie. It's got an asterisk next to it. Yes. And then, and now it's The New Avengers. Yeah, but like, they did that for the marketing, but they didn't. Okay. Do you think that was a mistake?

22:23I don't, I don't have clarity on what it's called.

22:26Andy Greenwald:Camera one will go straight to Feige. Just speak to camera. Tell him what you think about this. I am confused about what the movie is called, but I liked both of them. Also, Kevin's in his office right now being like, I heard what you said. You worked on Lanterns, but you're a Marvel guy. I thought it was clever that there was an asterisk. So clever. And that the asterisk was that they're not really the Thunderbolts. Yes. Yeah, because it's sort of like the new thing. And I'm sure that James Gunn was quite upset when he saw Thunderbolts and like, there's a running gag about what they're called when I'm doing this with the Justice Gang.

22:59Both gags work on their own merits, but I think that the idea that they both happened, that's the worst, is when you kind of have been lapped, but you haven't seen the movie that's coming out before you. It's not like an Armageddon deep impact situation where we're like, hey, we're both doing asteroid movies.

23:17Andy Greenwald:I mean, it would be worse if Herbie was a robot dog. Yes. Like that would have been a little too, something's in the... It's true. Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it, style it, make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling?

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25:14Andy Greenwald:It's proof that daily routine can be remarkable. That's the science of wow. Colgate Optic White. All right, we still haven't talked about the movie. Let's talk about the movie. I liked it. I loved it. You loved it. I loved it. Great. I got nothing. I mean, I have plenty. We could talk for the next hour about it. But I was very much looking forward to the movie. I very much liked everything that they seemed to be doing from like the decision to make it, to make a strong aesthetic choice and say this is like a retro future Jetson 60s thing. Like the cast. I like the way they're promoting it. I thought it seemed like the kind of project that Marvel hasn't had in a while where they had their arms around the totality of it.

25:53Andy Greenwald:Like we get what it is. We understand how to market and sell it. And on a fundamental character level, this seemed to be back in Feige's sweet spot, which is understanding the most boiled down, concentrated version of why these characters are appealing and translating it. He did that with Captain America, Thor, Iron Man. And I would say he did it less with the Marvels and was finally back in his bag with this. And all of that said, I didn't think that I would find it to be as just joyful and enjoyable a movie-going experience as I did. I was in from the beginning, and I was kind of moved where you're supposed to be moved, and I was excited where you're supposed to be excited.

26:36Andy Greenwald:and I found the limitations of a different universe starting over to be such a relief. Yeah, that, I mean, that I think is its greatest attribute, which is it feels so clean. Yeah. And again, for someone who loves serialized storytelling and the idea of like, like me, I know that you read all of these comic books and the idea of sort of like keeping the different universes straight and the ultimate universe comes in and all of these characters, there's four different Wolverines at any one time. You know, one of them is an old man who's not necessarily gone through the experience. It's like part of that is amazing to have that sort of like insular Talmudic knowledge of everything that's going on.

27:24But then when the fresh take comes, you know, when the ultimate universe was first launched and that sort of idea of saying like, you don't need to know anything. And more importantly, this story, and maybe this isn't necessarily a quibble but it's sort of like the last the post credit scene is the only scene in the entire movie that undoes what I'm about to say but it's not in service of anything other than these characters you know and so like when we saw like Captain America the first Avenger it's basically like this story is taking place in the 40s and we know that he is eventually going to get frozen in a block of ice and, and, and we'll be in whatever the contemporary story is.

28:09But this story is just in service of, of this. And, and, and to do that without it being an origin story, cause that's the other, that's the other slippery slope. And I think it's, um, it's very hard to thread that needle of, do we need to see the acts, you know, the, the cosmic rays. And I, and I felt like even they did a really good job of messaging before we saw the movie, this is media res like yeah these guys are are already up and running but they you still have to communicate to the audience how long have they been around what does the world think of them what what's up with subterranean yep like the the kind of like the confidence and you know and montage-y musical sort of like boppy vibes of like kind of the movie obviously starts with the scene between Reed and Sue.

29:01Yes. And I, my, my editing brain is basically like, he's talking about liniment, like two scenes from now. So maybe this scene used to be second, but I'm really glad they moved it up first because like if the movie just started with the montage,

29:15Andy Greenwald:yes, you know, it would, and then I had to like jump into this kind of like intimate scene between these two people where someone finds out that they're pregnant and that, and he's a little bit scared, but ultimately like the MacGuffin has just been conceived. Also, just side note, sorry to interrupt you. Please. Taking an eight-year-old to the movie, eight-year-old has now lived in this world long enough to understand, like, sure, there are celestial space gods that eat planets, but she did not understand what was happening in the first scene. Oh, really? Absolutely confused. Okay, you might need to have a talk with your eight-year-old.

29:45I was like, I think there's a deeper talk I need to have. Yeah, exactly.

29:47Andy Greenwald:I probably shouldn't have spent the whole car ride over talking about Jack Kirby. I should have been talking about something a little more basic. Anyway, go on. No, I think that like to instantly, this is when genre or superhero movies writ large are at their best is when they're basically like, hey, these people have incredible powers and they're about to have to save the world. But I'm going to make them relatable. This is just a married couple finding out some really exciting news. they're a little bit nervous about it for reasons that we don't entirely understand yet they don't and and then to basically say like the the parable the allegory of oh shit i'm terrified that everything's going to change when this baby is born is this giant galactic um you know world devourer um that that like wants my baby like the the math is like it's so simple and so intricately sketched.

30:49And I, and I just think like, these things are so hard, man. I mean, this isn't you and I sitting here whining about we're, we're living the dream. Like I've lived beyond the dream. I've gotten to play in sandboxes of the things that basically inspired me. And sometimes the love letter is received and sometimes the love letter went horribly awry, but it was always done with love. It was a good letter. And well, and, and, and, and yeah. And so did the people who make this, like, were they able to convey how passionate they are about the characters and how this is supposed to feel?

31:23Andy Greenwald:Yes. And it's just, yeah, it's just check, check, check, check, check, you know, all the way down the column. It did, I mean, there's a version of our conversation and my affection for the movie that is based on like the sort of meta industry observance and awareness and be like, oh, they did it. They accomplished something here. They solved for whatever. The other part of my enthusiasm and joy is that I did feel the ghost in the machine of larger corporate structure being like, we love this shit. We love it. And we love the purity of the original Lee and Kirby imaginative idea of scientists' family can fix themselves and fix the world.

32:04Andy Greenwald:and with optimism and with ingenuity. And it feels particularly out of step with the moment and thus it made it even more appealing. But the moment, I liked the movie from the beginning and I want to circle back to your point about like the little decision-making that helps with scale, like moving that scene first, which surely was a discussion at Marvel and Disney. But for me, the moment when Reed turns to everyone at like the crisis moment and is like, I do have a plan. and the plan is I'm going to teleport Earth. I was like, these guys like comic books. That is the most purely batshit comic book idea and that your hero of the movie, the smartest person in this and many other universes, suggests it and everyone's like, okie dokie.

32:48Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Inject that into my veins. For sure. That is something that is a unique chemical of this type of storytelling that I think, you know, obviously decades of bad comic book movies ran in the opposite direction from, but this one ran towards. In that, it is similar to Big Jim Gunn's Superman. Right. I think, in that he's just, the scene when... Big Jim Gunn. That's what he should be called. Oh, I'm sure he would love that. Yeah. Yeah. Do we start that here? Yes. If you, you've met them, like, does he introduce himself as James or Jim? He just says, hey, how are you? And like, he... Assumes you know he's Big Jim Gunn.

33:27Andy Greenwald:That's Big Jim Gunn energy. No introduction necessary. I think when he's like, yes, Marvel's risking something with me in the Guardians of the Galaxy, he's James Gunn. But now he's Big Jim. Yeah. Gotta be. Okay. Anyway, the scene when there's the space imp outside of the window when Clark and Lois are having another, you know, and they're not even paying attention to it because that's normal. Yes. That is a table setter for the type of comic book storytelling that he wants to do. And I think the people who made this movie are in line with. Yes. Right. We're not afraid of how dopey and goofy and bug eyed some of this stuff can seem.

33:59Right. And, you know, and I think that there's this word grounded that is like kind of pervasive. And everybody says they love, right? Where it's sort of like we want this thing to feel grounded and real. And I think it's actually, it's a lot more nuanced than we give it credit for. And I think that that sense of, well, certain things should feel grounded, right? In terms of, you know, Christopher Nolan's Batman movies. We understand that Christopher Nolan is making a more grounded version of Batman than Joel Schumacher is.

34:35Andy Greenwald:Although Batman lends itself because he is powerless. But then you watch Tim Burton's original and it's like there's a Prince song and Joker is like, it's pretty not grounded. Although it's two of the three people in this room who are alive for that movie. I'm just burnishing you here, Kaya. This is good for you. Was Kaya alive for any of the first iteration of the... I don't want to speak for Kaya, but I think she was... Who's Kaya's Batman? God, that's a great question. Yeah. Clooney. Christian Bale, probably? Christian Bale's your Batman. Yeah, I would say so. Or I mean, honestly, let's give it to Robert Pattinson at this point.

35:07For sure.

35:08Andy Greenwald:When the Burton movie came out in 1989, like, so much of the dialogue about it was, finally Batman has been returned to its more serious Dark Knight detective origin. Because the comp was Adam West. The comp was Adam West. Right. And then now you look at the bat dance scene, you're like, it really was not that far from Adam West. It's called the Batusi. if we're really checking each other's CV. I don't remember. That was on volume two of the Wilburys, if I remember correctly. All this by way of saying is, I think that there is also an appetite for the ungrounded. That is to say, when you're talking about grounding, you're talking about emotional grounding.

35:45And so that conversation between Lois and Clark as the battle is happening beyond their window is very grounded. Yes, we're here and they're there. He's about to tell her, I'm going to go turn myself in because that's the right thing to do because it doesn't, I'm not sure what the message from my parents, assuming that it's real, but the best thing for, the right thing for me to do is to turn myself in. It's sort of a morality thing. And so it's okay that what's happening outside the window is kind of heightened. And it's also providing this kind of like very beautiful, romantic, you know, light.

36:21And everything feels like it's in service of the characters and the emotions. For something like Fantastic Four, which in its bones, in its DNA, is Kirby. Yes. It has to be a little weird. Yeah. Maybe a lot weird. And for me, the moments in the movie that I was most delighted by were like Mole Man coming and throwing shade at Reed. The Mole Man is so great. They didn't run from it. And then doing the jokes about the dirt. And it was basically like Hauser is a Paul Walter. Yeah. Yeah, he's great. He's incredible. And I'm sort of like, I know that Malkovich was in the movie and then he wasn't in the movie.

37:02The Red Ghost erasure with his super apes. But I'm sort of like, but that's, maybe that was about rhythm. Maybe that was about pacing. Maybe that was about, you know, it felt, I don't know what the story was.

37:14Andy Greenwald:I think it would have extended the opening montage to the point of feeling like, oh, is this the movie? Or maybe we're like, maybe there was like an introductory scene where they were fighting Red Ghost and that's how we were like meeting them. Or maybe he was too grounded. Like you just believed that this older man would have a reason to employ an army of super apes. When's the last time John Malkovich gave a grounded performance, Andy? No, just let's... Maybe every super ape had a Malkovich face and it was a little bit too... Yeah. Was he doing the rounder's accent is the only thing I want to know.

37:44God. Anyway, that... DVDs. Extras. But that idea of like the movie is not afraid to get weird and strange. And speaking of strange, I think that's another character, Doctor Strange, who is like, that's built into the DNA of the thing. And so when the MCU was first launching, this is before even people were like, Guardians, how are they going to do a talking raccoon? The Thor movie was the third movie, right? It was, well, maybe Iron Man 2 came out before Thor. I can't remember. But it was Iron Man, Cap, and then Thorin was like, how's Asgard gonna work in this grounded universe? Yeah, where we understand.

38:27Super soldiers. A rich guy in armor. Right, and it was like, they kind of let us in. But I do think that, again, until the post-credits scene, you're just like, this is not in service of anything other than these people, these characters. Nothing is being asked of me. There's no characters being mentioned or named that I need to know about. and I think that that sort of idea of like I feel a little bit bad for the Fantastic Four as they're, I don't know if they're on that rocket ship that is hurtling into the MCU writ large at the end of Thunderbolts, you know, New Avengers but the idea of like they're about to be overwhelmed with so much exposition.

39:09Andy Greenwald:I know and grimness. Like I think that they did the best they could folding in comic books in service of what they had already built which worked for them But your point about Strange is an interesting one because I think that I remember the stuff about it. Well, they were like, I'm sure they had many meetings about how are we going to make magic a thing in a world where we've established, we've already bought, we've gotten America to buy in. Right. And now we're going to say there's also magic. Yeah. And the movies, you know, kind of advanced it a little bit and the movie worked. And then, you know, the Raimi movie got a little weirder on the margins, but it didn't do the like Ditko or like a more contemporary artist like Trad Moore, like absolutely you are on mescaline.

39:49Andy Greenwald:Because Doctor Strange can do anything in alternate universes with his third eye open. Sure. And there's fun in that because the creators were doing lots of drugs. Right, right. At the time. Fantastic Four ran with it, with the goofiest parts of it and also the sweetest parts of it. And all the things that may have been a little discordant once you have to have them walk down the same New York streets that these other characters have already trod upon. So, like, we are in a lower Manhattan that isn't defined by Strange's building or Peter Parker swinging overhead. Ben Grimm just goes to get cookies.

40:20Andy Greenwald:And that is New York, and it's his New York, and I love that feeling. And I do, one of my takeaways from the end, not to, we should get through more of the movie before we get to the end, but I can't wait to see these characters again. but I kind of want to see them in their own context. Right. Because it feels like they're going to get swallowed up and, you know, it's like their story is basically now continuing and they've leapfrogged over, you know, two decades of, of, um, of story. And they're now kind of like the new blood. And obviously we're going to get the X-Men at some point too. Although I don't know if the X-Men are going to be introduced inside the body of those movies because it doesn't their movie has been announced, right?

41:05A new X-Men movie, yes?

41:07Andy Greenwald:Well, that's intentional. But first, I believe... But that will be after Secret Wars. Yeah, my assumption is, and people have heard me nerd out about this before but that they are following loosely a Jonathan Hickman written guideline that he did in the comics in which realities crash into each other. So my assumption is the Fox X-Men will have a last stand of some sort, although I believe that was the name of the Ratner X-Men movie. Sure. Before their universe gets... That turned out to be the penultimate stand. That was the penultimate stand. Now, yes. Asterisk. Yes. Oh, wow. We could do that.

41:40Amazing.

41:41Andy Greenwald:But despite what Rebecca Romijn was saying this weekend of, I'm not sure if I'm coming back or not. We're not sure if there's even a script. My guess is they're in that movie, but then probably that X-Men door is closed. Gotcha. But yes. All right. In terms of all the work done for this world, what do you think—well, let's talk more specifically. Matt Shackman directed this. I thought he did a phenomenal job. Agreed. Again, we know that the mighty Marvel method is not what Stan Lee wrote anymore. It's what Kevin Feige still says proudly, right? That he doesn't think you need a finished script to make these movies.

42:18Andy Greenwald:I believe the verb he used in the interview he did recently was plussing. Like, you can keep plussing the story or the opportunities. by having people. That doesn't sound good. It doesn't sound great. It does sound like all streaming strategy, right? Yes. Plus the name of the network. But. It sounds dangerously adjacent to supersizing, which we know leads to, I think, organ failure. Or, no, I worked for Jeff Zucker for a while. Oh. I went straight to NBC in the 2000s. Yes. He went straight to. Morgan Spurlock. Morgan Spurlock. Yeah, yeah. R.I.P. Who, who, he started it though. No, I mean, mcdonald's started yeah and then jeff zucker appropriated it yes um so kind of like in the early 2000s yes you could you could watch a 41 minute episode of friends yeah and they could sell an extra ad block and they called that supersize and it worked it did so turned out that people's appetite for ross and rachel was insatiable it's still true um what do you think contributed to this feeling of coherence in this movie.

43:23Andy Greenwald:You know, just purely before we can veer off, and I'm sure we will, into the comic bookiness of it. But there was a... Matt Shackman, I think, clearly got the job because of what he did with WandaVision in playing with style, vibe, genre, in the service of what ended up being a fairly emotionally consistent piece of storytelling. He went all in on the style, and they really, I thought, took full advantage of it. Like, one of the great small beats of it is when, before they go back into space, they eject Herbie's Earth tape face and put in his space tape face. Sure, yeah. But it did feel like a consistent, I mean, there are five screenwriters plus six people doing a story by, it's a Marvel movie.

44:02Andy Greenwald:But I felt like it was pretty put together. I didn't feel the weight of changed decisions, you know, or obviously servicing some larger ultimate landing place. Yeah, I mean, again, these movies are so hard and I, um, I, I feel much more comfortable in a television landscape as a story storyteller, even though even saying self-identifying as that is now like weird, like, um, like as a writer, I guess, but like this kind of idea and particularly when you're playing inside of IP, you know, like, uh, it's now your turn at bat with someone else's story. And so there there's there's legacy uh many writers preceded you before you take your your shot at this thing and so like the joke that i always tell when a friend of mine says that they're writing a movie and it's based on pre-existing ip is i just say portal or bomb and they go what and i say is in in the third act is a portal opening up or is a bomb about to go off like and and then they they like you you see them kind of get befuddled but but then it's it is always one of those two you know like even even in superman it's portal right like and um it's portal sometimes sometimes really bad things are going to come out of the portal and you've got to stop them from coming out it's like sort of a hell mouth scenario you know or there's a bomb that's about to kind of like go off or whatever it is and so like uh and and and then if you can somehow just like say it it's not portal or bomb uh but like but it's the fate of the world right i'm like and i i'm coming up with some other kind of deus ex machina that is threatening the world that doesn't take the form of portal or bomb that that in and of itself is a challenge but if you can if you can completely and totally sideline all of those things and and just make it like black panther for example where it's it's just a child versus killmonger and it's like there there's a sense of if killmonger is not stopped he's gonna what he's gonna send these weapons out and there's gonna be that, but they're not really fighting to save the world in that moment.

46:13No, you're focused on the - In the way that most of these third acts do. And so all this by way of saying is like Fantastic Four is that thing. And we know before we even go into the theater what it is. Everyone knows the Galactus story. And if you don't know what the trailer tells you. Yes. And Julia Garner tells you. Yes. And, you know, she's spitting bars about what she's heralding. And so the promise of the movie is this guy is coming to eat your planet. Good luck stopping him. He's really hungry. And so the— He needs a supersized planet. He does. And that is Earth.

46:52Andy Greenwald:Jupiter was right there. I do wish there was a follow-up question when Johnny says, like, you picked Earth. Yeah. And she's like, yes. That he would just say, why? Yeah. What's so great? What's wrong with Venus? There's so many other ones. Right, yeah, that seem like... I thought if you're going to pick Knits, Silver Surfer stuff was a little half-baked. Like, only in the sense that we don't follow up on her moral culpability. Right. And also, I thought the CG was a little odd. Like, it is a tough one. Yes. But I found her, I found it to just be a little bit, like, neither here nor there. Like, are we fully a Silver person or are we Julia Garner?

47:32Andy Greenwald:It was a little bit hard to tell. I love her as an actor. I mean, I feel like the way that the movie looked, you know, just sort of across the board was really great and a vast improvement over like we all understand how these things are put together and how many different effects houses. But again, I think that like, I think that the idea of like, just Galactus in and of yourself is like, just like, it's both completely and totally intuitive to say, just do Galactus. Because the other Fantastic Four movies, which we don't need to, are sort of like, what if it's a cloud of nanites? But it's just like, just do this guy.

48:08But that's not easy, right? No, well, there's two things. And there's a performance there too.

48:12Andy Greenwald:I was like, to my daughter, I was like, he was on the British office. I don't know why I've become that person because she started to watch The Office. sure she's like this is of no use to me yes and I was like but your dad knows right they love me yes anyway first of all Superman and this movie deserve to be commended for just choosing a different color palette and brightness level okay so I don't feel like we're on the same sound stage with the same effects houses getting burned out there's a brightness there's just a aesthetic decision making at work here but I wanted to bring up I feel like I'm outside we're outside and we live in a world yes and in that case having a stylized world helps because everything is slightly tweaked and artificial.

48:49But I think I was going to bring up

48:52Andy Greenwald:the same thing you just did, which is the story of the multiple years of adapting successfully, mediocrely, or terribly the Fantastic Four franchise is kind of a lesson in how to do this stuff or how best to approach it because they spent so much time saying they love the material and then running as far away as possible from it. Particularly like, yeah, we have a Jesus figure who's on a surfboard and we have a planet eating space God And they're like, well, who wears a purple helmet? And it's like, well, no, no, no, no, no. We like the idea, but it has to be a cloud. Grounded. Or similar, or like in the Josh Trank version, it's like, we want to see the burden of this transformation.

49:27Andy Greenwald:It's like, that's a version of grounded that I'm so over with. Like, life is hard enough. It's interesting to see someone who's like, it's pretty sick that I can fly. Yes. Or there's maybe a few advantages here to be special. Right. And so running towards the Galactus thing, being like, yes, we're going to honor this Kirby design and just the absolute insanity of it, and then bring him to Earth and do something that's like a kaiju battle from a Toho movie, like at scale. So when he's walking through Manhattan, I was laughing. It's delightful. It's funny. It's bizarre. Did I have the wrong read that he was a little bit turned on by the Statue of Liberty?

50:05Yes, he's like, finally. I mean, he looked and he was like, hello, lady.

50:09Andy Greenwald:This is a different hunger for Galactus. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think that whatever was going on there was inappropriate and very interesting to me. Yeah, you'd think that would make him question what he's doing here. Like, this is a better planet for me. They make them my size. And if he knocked it over, the Statue of Liberty, then the movie is woke? Or you're making some kind of anti-American... If he knocked it up, I thought you were going to say. Because I kind of felt like I was very into that look because I was like, what's this? What does this mean? So it was just really to get a sense of scale, I guess.

50:45Andy Greenwald:So the Marvel story council, if it had D. Lindelof added to it, you would wait till everyone else quieted down and just lean forward, take off your glasses and say, what if sexy Galactus? I would just say that somewhere in the multiverse, Ghostbusters 2. Yeah. OK. And this Fantastic Four movie are both happening in the same New York. cute and john malkovich goes from red ghost to red ooze oh keep going because you say you're or actually stop you're catching what i'm pitching stop um um okay so the spirit of it yes yeah i was just gonna say one thing reflecting on your point about um about just do just do do what we love do the thing is there and speaking of the thing there is that great moment where ben is is at looking at television and it's and it's evan moss uh bakarok and and and then the reflection yes the thing and and we're like we get it yes you know we don't need five beats of reed saying i'm gonna you know i'm gonna change you back when nobody wants that to happen yes right that's the thing is like you know every episode of the incredible hulk when i was growing up the tv show was basically like kaya in the 70s oh yeah there was a show called the incredible hulk and and bill Bixby wandered from town to town and inevitably he would get angry while wearing his purple pants.

52:03They could only afford it once. One time. He would get angry a couple of times, but he would only turn into the Hulk once. He would get miffed. He would get peeved. And then Lou Ferrigno, who was constantly competing with Arnold Schwarzenegger to be Mr. Universe, painted green with an amazing wig. He would Hulk out, beat the shit out of people, and then he'd have to roll out of the next town, just kind of like as the FBI McGee was the name of the guy who was kind of chasing the Hulk. His name was FBI McGee? I don't know. I don't know what his first name was. I think his last name was McGee. You have to look it up.

52:34I'm going to guess it's Jack McGee. Yeah, probably. Or Big Jim McGee. Something like that. You liked it. I did. Yeah. But anyway, he's looking for a cure so that he doesn't have to be the Hulk anymore. But the premise is terrible because the audience wants him to stay the Hulk.

52:49Andy Greenwald:And to be the Hulk more, in fact. And so I do think that the idea of like, again, first off, we're getting like a real performance. like which uh and for for a character that is a primarily a visual effect yes you know that that guy was on the set yeah you you hear his voice in a way that it wasn't done in an adr booth there are people reacting to his performance and like and he's a wholly realized character i'm sure you felt the same thing that i did and i'm sure many others have felt which is there was more there with natasha leone right like yes it's just like okay i'm hungry for that but i also understand And we, you know, it's time to cook.

53:27Yeah. But like, but sometimes when they shoot the more and you feel the more, it's not a bad thing. Yeah. Because it's sort of like, oh, okay. Like there was a journey here that this character went on.

53:36Andy Greenwald:And for the actor to, to attach to and understand. And I love that Johnny, who is like, you know, always just the ladies man, right? Just the cad, like who, who can also light himself on fire. And they retained that. Yeah. But then there's this, but then also he's an astronaut, you know? Like, he was on that ship for a reason. And so the idea of him being, like, a little bit missing going to space and, like, hot for space. But then he's like, I want to figure out this language thing because I have value, too. I'm not just that guy. I thought that was cool. I thought it was cool. I thought that was the one moment where I'm like, this feels like a successfully executed, top-down, thoughtful note about a character beat.

54:17Andy Greenwald:I didn't know if I bought the John Storm. If you went by John Storm. Oh, big Jim Storm. I get that he would then be like an intergalactic linguist. But again— Sounds also dirty. Well, that's what Galactus is, actually. Yeah. He wished he'd had the opportunity to show it off. Sure. He speaks excellent English, though, Galactus. They all do. It's like, why—Shallabal, why are you speaking Zen La 'ez when you also have a wonderful regional, nonspecific English accent? It's the Power Cosmic baby. It is. I shouldn't—I respect that Marvel was like, they all speak English. Power Cosmic, it's just better than Google English.

54:53They've been doing it. Everybody's been speaking English. Occasionally, like, someone doesn't speak English.

54:58Andy Greenwald:Well, it's the idea is that they have options. Right, yes. You know, it's like a beautiful borderless future that we are not getting. But it's nice to think about. No, but, like, the little details that made sense for the movie that they didn't run from also. Like, that Johnny is a cat, right? Yes. And that he always wants to try to date the aliens they meet. Like, that's additive. That's fun here. I don't think I'd seen Joseph Quinn in anything because I'm not up to date with the Stranger Things, but I thought he was very good. Yes. I thought that you can't. He's great on Stranger Things. And you can't fake.

55:28Andy Greenwald:I feel like this is an overused talking point, but I think it's legitimate that these four actors that they cast seem to enjoy each other's company, and you can't fake that. And so, again, that's additive vibes to the scenes that we get with them together. I also thought it was an interesting, and I'll credit my eight-year-old with this. she noticed it is the inverse of Superman in that there's one and a half Clark and Lois scenes in Superman. Like, I think Jim's interest is really a world of superheroes and how they interact with each other. This movie spent a lot of time with them as people, as a family in the Baxter building, which I enjoyed more and I appreciated.

56:06Andy Greenwald:Let's talk about the Pedro of it. You've seen him in four movies. Three movies and a TV show, I guess. Recently. Yeah. I mean, so I saw Eddington The Materialist and Fantastic Four inside of four days and then I guess the TV show is Last of Us yes which relatively recently we have a spoiler alert but he's like you know he's only in the early episodes enough for the Emmy voters and quite yeah and quite surprising for me I did not I was miraculously considering how close how close I fly to the the cultural flame did not know that that that that secret was effectively kept. But, like, I do, I know that it's a bit of a joke that it's like, this guy's in everything.

56:50You know, it's like, that he's kind of like transcended culture. But I will say, like, my appreciation for his skill, like, and this isn't even mentioning, like, what he's able to do on Saturday Night Live, which is like, kind of like next level. It's like, his comedic chops are incredible.

57:06Andy Greenwald:Or on the red carpet. He's just a delightful person. What he does in Eddington and what he does in The Materialists, both movies that I liked a lot and were just like really interesting even if you don't like them I think they're interesting but I liked them a lot and found them interesting and then Fantastic Four was the last one and then to say like he's he's playing an iconic Marvel character Reed Richards who actually isn't that iconic and by that I mean like he's really smart now you and I have read the Hickman So it's like there's a much more interesting version of Reed that begins to emerge in terms of what his future holds.

57:49But at this point in his life, what are the adjectives that we use to describe Reed Richards? And they're so limiting. They're like, he's really smart. He's good. He's a good husband. He's heroic. Like, he's a good father. But I think like once you get into that territory of, to me, one of the most interesting scene in the movie is basically like a Sue saying like, you thought it.

58:13Andy Greenwald:Yes. You fucking thought it. I know she doesn't use the F word. No. But it's implied, you know. And she's great, by the way. Like I think that that's the standout performance. Yeah. And but the sort of idea of like, and it's kind of a relief. And maybe this is a bit gendered. But I think that the idea of like, in the moment that Galactus is like, give me your kid and I will spare your planet. I think it's easier for men to go like, man, that's, that's a bad beat, but you got to do it. And I think women are just like, well, goodbye earth, you know? Like, and I think that the movie has to call that out between Reed and Sue.

58:51And he's like, I'm not going to do it, but we have to consider it. Like that's, if you don't have that moment, then the movie doesn't work.

58:59Andy Greenwald:It also spoke to, I think it is, I don't want to assume it's a universal thing, but when the baby is born, like the role of the father is never less important or defined. Like the first few weeks and months. And there is an attachment that is instant and ongoing with a mother. And the father takes a while to figure out your role there. Right. And that was subtext here as well. And he's like, well, you know, I don't know him that well yet. Right. And I know these other people. I also thought it was another smart. I have to ask you, though, while we're on the subject. You took your eight-year-old daughter to see the movie.

59:34And I was side-eyeing her. I have a 19-year-old son. But does your kid ask you when you leave the theater, hey, what would you do if it were me or the planet?

59:43Andy Greenwald:Yes. She asked. She was curious. And I was like, you when? Yeah. You last week? Right, yeah. Or you now? Things are great right now. We're good. Yes. But honestly, your attitude about seeing this movie made me wonder. Right. You know, she was not super into it. Absolutely. The other thing about that scene that I also wanted to call out, it's another example of the ambient collective knowledge of comic books behind the scenes of the story council, of the people who work at Marvel Publishing still, of Feige himself is really valuable because they are able to pick up the strands and crumbs that have been dropped by generations of very talented people, dust them off and say, well, this is still interesting.

1:00:27Andy Greenwald:This has become core text in a way that we want to play with. The most interesting version of Reed maybe in the history of the character is the one from the Ultimate Universe where he's the greatest villain ever, the maker. That shades everyone's understanding of the canonical character now. And that scene brought that shade into the movie and into the MCU in a way. It's my job to think of the worst thing. It's not your job. You think of those things. Right, right. Great. Does that mean there's going to be evil Reed? I mean, probably in one of the multiverses of Secret Wars, yes, but beyond that makes the character more interesting.

1:01:00Andy Greenwald:It's additive. Right. And we've also like, they're playing a bit fast and loose in terms of in some, in the multiverse, there are different versions of Peter Parker who look different and maybe are even different ages. Yes. Right. Like, and in some instances, it's the same exact actor. Right. Like where it's like the Patrick Stewart that we're seeing sitting next to John Krasinski. Yes. He's not the Professor X that we see in Logan. Right. Right. Like, or, you know, I mean, he's just played by the same actor. And so it's sort of like we have to kind of like accept that. And whatever their logic is going to be for how RDJ is going to play Doom, right, and looks exactly like Tony Stark.

1:01:47the question just basically becomes, and I'm sure that they've had this conversation ad nauseum, do we have to solve for that? Or do we have to explain why Victor Von Doom looks exactly like Tony Stark? Was there a switched at birth thing that happened in the Latverian hospital?

1:02:04Andy Greenwald:John Slattery's Howard Stark character was a little drunk. Because that's extremely fast and loose, right? But when he took the mask off at Comic-Con last year, everybody was just like, I don't care. You need to do it. You need to explain it. But this is actually kind of brilliant because, and they said this after the fact, Tony Stark has to stay dead. Yes. You know, or else all of those movies mean nothing. It's like the reason, and again, we talk about these comic books in like scripture, they're not. I'm not likening them to religious text, but for some, they are. But the idea that Tony Stark died to save us all, you can't take that away.

1:02:50It would be like the Christ story, it has no impact until the resurrection. Yeah. Right? Until he dies on the cross and comes back. But he's not in corporal form.

1:03:00Andy Greenwald:For what it's worth, for me, the New Testament and Paddington 3 are similar. Oh. They don't exist. You haven't seen Paddington 3? Oh, I saw it. Okay. The joke in my household is that they never made another one. Oh, you're just not going to acknowledge it? no, we've just moved on. We're not mad. I tried to start watching it on a plane and my in-system TV didn't work only for Paddington 3, which I took as a sign. That's a kindness. Yeah. That's a kindness. Okay. So there's internet people who are like the post-credit scene that is the first glimpse of doom in the Marvel Universe that Franklin is fixing his face, fixing his scars.

1:03:39I need to ask you a question. So I saw an interview with Shackman and it made an interview with the child playing. And they asked him, and I may be misunderstanding this. Was that Downey? And he said, yes. Because they asked him, did you direct this? And he said, no, the Russos did. And then they said, was it Downey? And he said, yes. And my brain just said, what?

1:03:59Andy Greenwald:Yeah. What? It is? It's him? It's, I mean, I understand it's supposed to be Downey. But do you think on the day when they shot that? And if so. Pedro Pascal is always in the Mandalorian armor. Gotcha. Right? Yep. He always is. We're on the same page. No, in that case, though, it's possible because this post-credit scene, like the post-credit scene in Thunderbolt's asterisk, second asterisk, The New Avengers, was directed by the Russo brothers from the never-ending set. And so, in theory, these scenes are in media res. They're going to film the A and C of these scenes at some point. So it's possible.

1:04:32Andy Greenwald:Gotcha. There may be more to that scene. Sure. And they may have just, yeah, but I guess we don't know. Because it would have cost them $25 million for him to turn around and be downy. A billion percent. Yeah. That deal must be really special. Yeah. Really special deal. Let's talk. And by the way, earned every penny. He did. Yeah. Let's talk Franklin. Let's talk kids. Sure. Golden child. This is, again, them running towards something that is controversial and difficult in the comics. Like, you know, historically in comics, like advancing relationships past the, and this is true in TV too, right?

1:05:09Andy Greenwald:Like Peter and MJ, flirty, flirty, awesome. Tenth year of marriage, less dramatic stakes potentially for a comic book. Or they've addressed that in a number of ways. Many of them controversial. Unmarrying them. They forget about it. They made a deal with Mephisto. And by the way, Mephisto is ripped now. I don't know if you saw. I did see. So he's ready to do the shirtless red body stuff. Bringing in kids, bringing in babies can be an unforced error on TV shows because then you have to answer to what, we have to take care of the kid. Right. If we're running from zombies or running from Thanos, that makes it more challenging.

1:05:43Andy Greenwald:Franklin is particularly challenging because the one thing that is agreed upon canonically in the comics is that this kid is - It's a bad name. It's a weird choice of a name. Yeah, it's just a bad name. I mean, it's Reed and Sue. Like, it's all a little dated. Yeah, and Ben and Johnny. But like, I mean, the only other Franklin that I'm aware of is the Peanuts Franklin. Oh, you're not aware of the short-lived Philadelphia 76ers mascot, a dog named Franklin. There's the Sixers, Madlib, Kaya. Cross it off. I'm not. Well, that was, Franklin existed, I believe, right after they retired the Eagle, whose nickname was Hip Hop.

1:06:15Andy Greenwald:Gotcha. The bunny, I'm sorry, not Eagle. It was a bunny. I feel if you're Franklin, you don't even get to be Frank because Frank is short for Francis. And that's cool because you've got tough Catholic parents. Yeah. And you could have been Pope. You could have been a fighter. You could have gone either way. But Franklin, there's only one road and that road is Golden Child. Yeah, the most powerful. It's Savior of the Galaxy. The most powerful being. Potential planet eater, yes. And they've run at this, and they've said he's a mutant, and he's the most powerful X-Man. They've done a lot of storylines where Franklin from the future, always with a ponytail, comes back and is like, you need to whatever, and they're like, okay, son.

1:06:50And he's got a sister, not yet. Valeria, sure.

1:06:53Andy Greenwald:And they depowered Franklin. They've nerfed him, as they say. Oh, wow. They've brought him back. But all of this is challenging and canonical, including, we keep referencing the great comic writer, Jonathan Hickman, in his Fantastic Four run, there was a whole digressive story where Galactus is actually Franklin's Herald, which is pretty cool. Right. Okay. Yes. I remember that. So anyway, all this, like this, whoever this kid is, he is worth saving a planet for, for Galactus will do anything. Theoretically, maybe he will become the new Galactus. And then at the end, he brings his dead mother back to life.

1:07:35Right.

1:07:36Andy Greenwald:Which is cool. That's pretty cool for a baby to do. Yep. Give me everything. Do you think this was a smart story play? Does it create more problems than it solves? Did it emotionally work for you? I mean, I think that let's talk about MacGuffins for a second. Yeah. This is like one of my favorite talking points inside and outside of writers' rooms and I I seem to recall Alfonso Cuaron being the first one to say it in an interview about regarding children of men. And he was essentially, he said something like, and I'm paraphrasing, the best MacGuffin is not a what, it's a who. And when you look at children of men and you're basically like, okay, that's how it is structured.

1:08:20It's not a get the thing. It's like, it's about her. And more importantly, you know, what she represents in a world where babies can't be born anymore. and hope incarnate, et cetera, et cetera. So Franklin checks that box, right? I believe that Marvel has introduced their new Infinity Gauntlet and it is now not a what, it is a who, right? And so the idea of like Franklin as a being of immense power is the thing that is the MacGuffin of these next two movies, Doomsday and Secret Wars. And there's a personal - Right, and so the question becomes, which I hadn't considered until I saw the tag, is Doom even a bad guy?

1:09:02Yeah. Would Downey play a villain? Because you've read the Hickman run, and like, Doom is sort of like chaotic good. Yeah. At a certain point, as an ally, and so is there some version where he is, where Franklin, he believes, is the ring of power? Yes. Right? And he is taking Franklin to throw him into the galactic Mount Doom because Doom is saying like, I need to kill this thing, your baby, in order to restore some— Order to the multiverse, right?

1:09:37Andy Greenwald:If there's a chaos and these universes are dying. And so now that creates kind of like a new—I would say that's not probably the way they should go because they just did that story in Fantastic Four, which is like, is our baby's life worth catastrophe? et cetera, et cetera. And now it's a five-year-old's life. Correct. Which, you know, it's worth having. It's a conversation. That's true. I think he's, is it four years later or five? Whatever it is. Oh, right. So he's not quite five. Yeah. Okay. So I think if Franklin is what, is all the marbles that we're basically playing for and this movie was like sort of like setting that up because they were going to need that thing, right?

1:10:13And what's good is he's neither a portal nor a bomb. Yep. Um, he, he's, he's a, he's a being of sort of like immense, uh, power and, and, and capability and strength. And, you know, we've, we've seen different versions of, of, of a being who has the power to destroy the universe must be destroyed, um, is, is always like a good story because it seems to present how, how can we win if it's someone that we like.

1:10:41Andy Greenwald:It's also a way to do Secret Wars without introducing the Beyonder who was a, uh, very 80s character in like a, you know, velour tracksuit, white tracksuit with long mullet, who was able to create universes. This is cooler. Although we don't know what future Franklin's hair choices are often suspect. But then Doom like becomes the Beyonder, kills the Beyonder, like takes the Beyonder's powers at least in the original Secret Wars. That's right. So I do think, I mean I think it's safe to say that regardless of the twists and turns of Doomsday and Secret Wars, which even the people involved remain unaware of, the end game if I may, does seem like Franklin can restart the universe and now Michael B.

1:11:21Andy Greenwald:Jordan could play Black Panther or whatever we want. Like we can start over. We can have a new Iron Man and we can do this for another 20, 30 years. This is barely a serviceable question, but I am always interested in your brain as a fan of this type of storytelling and then also as someone who works in the business and has made a number of references during this conversation as well as our text messages as to how hard this all is. Yeah. So borderline impossible. So what are your broadest possible feelings about the next decade of this stuff? And you could bring in the DC stuff, which you know a little bit more about, um, from personal hands-on experience or even like Marvel, like is, are we stuck in the same kind of Dr.

1:12:05Andy Greenwald:Doom loop of the comics where it's ultimately can't end and it can't iterate past a certain point. It just has to reboot. It's a great question. And the short answer is, I don't know. I mean, I do feel like there is a finite amount of ore inside this vein. And the vein is a superhero vein. and it's not just there's a Marvel vein and a DCU vein and the boys and all the sort of like, it's superheroes writ large. And I think that there is a hunger for original, surprising, fresh takes on this genre and there's a hunger to play the hits. I mean, the thing is like, if you're gonna go see U2 at the sphere in Vegas, you want to hear them do the Joshua Tree.

1:13:03you know and like and maybe mysterious ways like uh so and and so that idea of sort of like we want the the classics and and and we don't want you to change the menu like throw in the mcrib once a year you know supersize it we're good and i think that the idea of like you can't choose one road or the other you kind of like have to do both for me the most consistently strong long MCU movies have been the Spidey movies. Like they're the ones that I love the most, that I look forward to the most, that feel like the most sort of like heartfelt and like I'm completely and totally engaged by. And even when I heard that they were going to do some multiversal storytelling and I was a bit skeptical, that movie worked incredibly well for me.

1:13:51Cause once Toby and Andrew Garfield are there, I was like, like I'm, my eyes are watering when Andrew Garfield fucking saves MJ. And there's justice for a character

1:14:01Andy Greenwald:that I hadn't thought about in 15 years. It's just like those movies are like so great. And so I think that that idea of like, it's possible to kind of like skate along the edge of this kind of multiversal storytelling and still do, you know, new and exciting and fresh things. That's the sweet spot. But then I see all those director's chairs and I feel simultaneous excitement and overwhelmedness Because it's just sort of the idea of like, I'm going to go and see these two movies and it has to service like 50 characters. Now that said, I'm like ride or die for Infinity Wars and Endgame. Yeah, that's great.

1:14:42And I'm just basically like, give me Shuri. Give me, you know, like give me all of Wakanda. Give me Bucky. Give me, you know, now I've got a Rocket Thor story where they're fucking hanging out with Peter Dinklage. All of it. Like it didn't, it shouldn't have worked and it did work. And, and I, but I do feel like that was the culminative, like, it was like they had just done such beautiful setup for all of those payoffs. And I'm just like, I'm, I'm just really curious and a little bit nervous about where now these two movies, I think, are they, there's a Spidey that we're going to see before, uh, before Doomsday.

1:15:23Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Spidey is next summer and Doomsday is pushed to December 26th. That's next. That's a, that's an eight, a year and a half. So there's two MCU movies that one of them is a Spidey movie and the, and the next one is Doomsday. And so Doomsday is the, is the, is, is, is, is the next sort of big kind of like crossover event. And I just wonder, have they done all of the setup work? Because they flailed for years. A lot of the stuff just didn't work. And I do wonder that like, having recently rewatched with my kids and they loved it, like Infinity War and Endgame, part of the fun was it almost doesn't matter what Marvel team up they do in the next scene because I like all these people.

1:16:01Andy Greenwald:Right. And it's fun to see them mixing and matching. I don't know if I feel the same way about Wyatt Russell and Joseph Quinn and Winston Duke in a scene. Like maybe. Right. I like all those actors. I've liked them in their movies. But in terms of the like, the IP sweat equity of spending time with them is different. The larger thing is that Tony, and to some degree, Steve and Tony. Yes, there's an anchor there. They were the cohesive sort of like narrative through line through Civil War and Winter Soldier and leading into those movies. And so the idea that they were estranged and had to come back together and like all of that stuff.

1:16:43And that doesn't mean that the other characters aren't relatively important. And I guess I just go like, who is the anchor? First off, Downey is just, he's a celestial being in and of himself, his star power. So I guess Doom is actually the lead of these two movies, whether villain or hero. Correct. Because the biggest star in those movies. And what is it going to look like when Tom Holland and RDJ are in a scene together and Tom Holland has the emotional reaction to seeing Tony again. And that character doesn't recognize him. Yes. Like, have they done that math? So my bet is it's Peter and Doom are the anchor of these movies.

1:17:25They're the ones that I care the most about. And although I've now bought in on this version of the Fantastic Four, like, and I care about them. Yeah. I don't think that they've earned them being the leads, you know. True. Because they've only had, you know, an hour and 45 minutes of screen time an investment.

1:17:45Andy Greenwald:It is Guardians-y in the sense that they have a working thing within themselves that I think will translate and you'll be happy to see them. But I agree with that. After I saw this movie, I was talking to my daughter about, because she said, you know, to see them again in Avengers Doomsday. And I called up the cast list and it did feel like a potluck where everyone brought a dish, but you're like, but what's for dinner? Right. There's 30 actors. Where's the protein? And I see all of them and I'm happy to see Shang-Chi and I'm happy to see Nightcrawler and all this, but I'm like, but who's actually going to be feeding us in this film?

1:18:17Andy Greenwald:Right, and who are the Avengers? I mean, like, because again, we're back to the asterisk, but it's like those guys are the new Avengers. Yes. But it's sort of like, who are the Avengers right now? Did I miss that one? So they have fumbled the first steps towards Doomsday, I would say. Gotcha. Like, you know, I think that's generally, like everything they did on TV and everything, a lot of these movies, they just, it didn't work. Like they had the time and they had the space on their calendar to make Eternals the important cornerstone of this that they hoped it would be. And, you know, and then Harry Styles would fly in as Star Fox and everyone would be like, wow, this world just keeps getting bigger.

1:18:52Yeah.

1:18:52Andy Greenwald:But those are all kind of swings and misses. Shohei. I mean, these movies are going to work. Like, I don't think that that is a bold prediction. In fact, it's like a relatively safe one. it doesn't mean that that Russo's and Feige and everybody else behind the scenes has their work cut out for them but it's sort of like I'm not betting against no there's too much these movies I think they're gonna be great and I think that they're gonna potentially push Avatar out of the conversation entirely great because we don't want to talk about it yeah okay before we wrap up do you think Chris will watch the Avatar trailer that is basically runs before Fantastic Four I saw it And I was like, what the fuck is this?

1:19:35Andy Greenwald:Yes, right. That was so - Am I supposed to remember who Spider is? I didn't know what any of it was. It's okay. And they're so worked up and they're just blue. I'm more Chris. I just don't get it. I don't get it. But not everything is for everyone. So you have worked in a lot of these sandboxes and you've loved them. You've worked in them to varying degrees. As you said, love letters, some of which have been sent. And returned to sender. Some of which were returned to sender. Yes, exactly. One of which was literally torn up and thrown in the garbage. I think I was in the room for some of that.

1:20:08Andy Greenwald:Yeah, yeah, that's true.

1:20:11Andy Greenwald:If you, you know, and you just, you did just work on Lanterns. You did, I think, maybe you didn't know until I told you, you were special thanked by Big Jim at the end of Superman. That was news conveyed by you. That was exciting to see. Yes. If you get a call, I assume you may get a call, like to play in one of these again, without spoiling anything or breaking confidences, like where is your head in regards to that? It's not just that there's still stuff that you haven't ticked off your bucket list. It's that the entryway now to some of these universes isn't what it was 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago.

1:20:44Andy Greenwald:There's all this other shit. Sure. So what is your personal calculus these days of what it makes something interesting, enticing, meaningful to you? I think, and I'm sure there are many out there who would agree. uh like i've i've said and done and brought everything that i have to say and do and bring to the superhero canon um i felt that way pretty much after watchman was over and again watchman you know the romantic love that i held for that that that comic book um uh is like off the charts It's like, it is, is so fundamentally important to me. And it, and it in the, in the eighties was like enough with these fucking superheroes, you know?

1:21:33And so here we are 40 years later, um, like still doing, they're not going anywhere, right? They're, they're around. But I do think that the sort of idea of not like I didn't bring every idea that I could to help Chris and the team on Lanterns, you know, do their best version of Hal and John inside of what James and Peter are trying to do at DC. and both tonally, both in terms of sort of like, again, a lot of this is just sort of like about vibes. But if you can bring something new to the character that is not in opposition to the canon, but actually kind of like enhances the canon, that's always the search, which is like, how can I make this character feel more relevant without taking away the destruction of Krypton or the murder of the Waynes or Hal's dad dying in a test flight, but how can I nuance this?

1:22:36That said, it's sort of like, it's time for me to move on to other things. I think like creating original worlds is something that's still immensely difficult because you have to kind of build that world. But like maybe there are pieces of IP that are not as familiar to people. Like, I think Game of Thrones is a perfect example of this, whereas, like, if you were hip to those books, then great. But they weren't, like, tearing up the New York Times bestseller list, and people weren't, like, cosplaying those characters until it came to HBO. So it's like, that kind of IP is, like, very interesting where you can introduce it.

1:23:20But in terms of, like, you know, what do I have to say about any of these characters? Like I would, you know, I'm into Spidey, but I think I should be watching Spidey, not writing Spidey. Unless I suddenly like woke up one morning and had the incredible idea. So I really do go into these movies with, I feel sorry for people who go into these movies with their arms crossed and say impress me. I used to be that person. Now I go in and I'm basically like, I've got my fucking Galactus popcorn bucket that I spent$80 on. and I'm like, I'm here for fun and all you have to do is deliver and I don't think that my bar is super duper high and that isn't to take anything away from this movie but it's like, if you go in saying like, entertain me, make this worth my while, it's almost impossible to clear that bar.

1:24:12You'll always find something to be angry about and I just don't want to be that person and I don't want to have to try to please that person anymore.

1:24:23Andy Greenwald:Spoken like the person who paid for my ticket to see Madam Web. Oh, oh my God. Come on. That was an amazing. It was a wonderful day. An amazing rainy day. I was very entertained. And shout out to CR who was also with us. And that, we went on a Monday. It was like a holiday. It was like a Monday at 1 p.m. or something. But it was sort of like, I believe, it was the first screening of the film where everyone in attendance had gotten the memo of what it was. And it was so fun. It was really fun. Because everybody was there for it. I think it's a beautiful message to give to our listeners that you've got to make your own fun sometimes.

1:24:58Andy Greenwald:You do. That's what the Wilburys did. Yeah, and you don't have to travel to the Amazon. No. To find your own fun. No. We may never know who was researching spiders with our mother right before she died. I don't. I still don't know. I'm trying to figure it out. Do you think we'll find out on Avengers Doomsday? God, I fucking hope so. Dude, if they bring in any of the Madam Web characters, just get friggin Zosia Mamet behind a fucking screen or it's another part of the low key big time war between Jim Gunn and Kevin Feige that's happening right now where if Kevin Feige is like I know you're planning for Hawkgirl to be a core part of the Justice Gang but we need Isabella back on set because we're doing the Madame Web characters in Doomsday and just takes her off the board I'm sure they've got her under, well, she's under the Fox deal.

1:25:52No, the Sony deal. Oh, the Sony deal. That's right. But really, all these deals are negotiable these days, I think. For sure.

1:25:58Andy Greenwald:Look at you. We got you on this podcast. We thought you were exclusive to House of R, but no, you're here now. Well, I had to ask Joanna if she would loan me out. Thank you for talking about this with me. It's always a pleasure. No one better to nerd out about this stuff with. There are two things I didn't get to check off of my Chris list. You want to say them? No, we have to leave them for next time. Okay, and hopefully you'll come back for something less Marvel or less IP. I don't know what it would be. I would love that. Anytime. Excelsior. See, you can't resist. So, Kaya, in the 60s, Stan Lee used to say Excelsior.

1:26:35Andy Greenwald:Thus, the name of the show. You could just fade this part out. It'll sound real good. Yeah, cue end titles. We didn't say Chiquino's music. It was good. It was amazing. Really good. Great vibes. Don't add that.

1:26:53I'll see you next time.