Emmy Noms, Colbert Cancellation, and Did ‘Girls’ Stick the Landing?

21:36Andy Greenwald:So actors are nominated because they've been voted on by actors. Directors are nominated because they've been voted on by directors. It is not the whole body. I see. So you could, I don't, I'd be very curious if there's any data as to which peer group of Emmy voters watches the most television in their spare time. Maybe we could bring some of those guys into the larger pool. But White Lotus, for example, for whatever you thought of the recent season, it has become known as an actor showcase. Yeah. For actors who are, you know, Mike White lifts people up from, not necessarily from anonymity, but from maybe cult favorite status or whatever.

22:14Andy Greenwald:Jennifer Coolidge, Parker Posey, gives people like Jason Isaacs opportunities they haven't had before. Sam Rockwell has long been beloved in Walton Goggins. So actors are like, A, this guy writes for actors. B, these actors are, quote, doing it the right way. They're all traveling to Thailand, working for scale for the love of the game and for the love of the ensemble. Just to get to be a part of it. And probably that's the show actors most want to be on for their own careers. So I'm not saying there's ulterior motives. I look down that list of nominees, like I'm not taking any of them off. So you think this is less of like a Globes thing of like, let's just get as many famous people as possible at our award show and more of like friends voting for friends?

22:56Andy Greenwald:I think it's more like, well, I think it's, I think it is actors looking out for actors and also actors watching certain shows that showcase actors. Yeah. I also think like, so for example, we could say, and if there's one place that's going to say that industry was snubbed, it's this podcast. So industry was snubbed. I'm glad industry was snubbed because. Yes, speak on it. It's still, that means it's still our cool indie show that, and like, you know, one day, one day we'll get our due. You think? And we'll be like, we were there from the beginning. I think we've already been there. I feel like we've already gotten our flowers for that.

23:32Andy Greenwald:But I agree. It keeps it underground. It keeps them hungry. But I also think that we have a serious structural problem that is similar to the. So when Chris and I talk about TV shows, either when we talk about it or we hear from listeners, there is a barrier to entry for ongoing shows where people are like, well, I've missed the ship. I've missed the boat. It's in its third season. When am I going to catch up? Or maybe I will catch up, but it'll be in some summer when I've had dental surgery and I'm home or whatever. I feel like Emmy voters are in a similar place where there probably is enough ambient noise now that my Holla or Ken Lung just to use the industry examples or Marisa Abella are excellent but they're also probably like it's the third season yeah and it does seem to be that in terms of like I have so much severance to watch I have so many hours of severance I mean I heard she goes to Newfoundland that's a whole episode there is like this barrier to entry and this fatigue, this buildup.

24:30Andy Greenwald:It seems like historically with the Emmys, shows either break through right away because it's the hot new thing, or maybe they finally build up their momentum for their second season. And then away they go. Or it's like a season six kind of thing where people are like, well, we should probably give them their... But even in that, it's often in the pure categories. Yeah. So like The Wire, you know, really never, I think, never won a single Emmy. I may be wrong about that. I may have won a technical one, but it wasn't even nominated until its final season. And it was nominated for like writing and directing.

25:03Andy Greenwald:That's insane. So, look, I also think it's worth noting, as we often have to in these things, the Emmys are not the award show for, you know, critical excellence. It's the industry celebrating itself. Yeah. And no wonder the studio got, you know, a record-breaking number of nominations. I love the show, but I think people are supporting it, A, A, because it's about itself. Yeah. But B, it's also about itself in a kind of old-fashioned, look what we used to be able to do. Maybe we could do it again. And isn't this so cool? And isn't this so fun and high stakes? And I mean, I too, I love the studio.

25:42I think it was hilarious. But yeah, I mean, Hollywood loves to watch Hollywood.

25:49Andy Greenwald:We both remember our favorite Best Picture winner, the artist. You know, we all love movies about people making movies. Let me run through a couple other things that I'm happy about. And then please jump in if there's others that you agree with. I mean, Severance getting tons of nominations, a high quality show that certainly deserves the attention, is clearly beloved in the industry and by people on Reddit who hate me. So I wish them all well. An original. Original. An original idea. Yes. And an ongoing series. I'm more excited by, as I said, the nominations for Andor, which were plentiful. Sidebar.

26:22Andy Greenwald:I still think, I know it'd be hard to litigate or articulate, but I do miss a showrunner Emmy because the nature of it is that our friend Tony Gilroy, who everyone understands that he is the mastermind of the show, his nomination comes as being an executive producer for Best Drama Series. He is not nominated for writing. His brother Dan is nominated for writing one of the episodes that he wrote. Even Dan Gilroy, with all of the Gilroy pride, will admit that his script passed through his brother's typewriter, as they say beforehand. So I don't think Tony's crying about this, but I do think it's worth noting.

27:00Andy Greenwald:I think he'll be okay. He'll probably be fine. Enormous breakthrough for The Pit. Yes. A Max original. Our guy. And our guy, Dr. Noah. What did he say? He said like if he had known, it would have been 20 years. 20 years would pass between nominations. He would have enjoyed them more the first time. Special shout out to Catherine Lanassa, nominated as well. a few years ago when we were talking about how much we love The Bear Season 1 we always paused to say like we also love the story of The Bear Season 1 coming out of nowhere people feeling good about it excited about it making new stars The Pit is that story again yeah in a way it makes total sense that it's broken through but it is still kind of surprising yeah I mean it's classic television in every sense and And for a long time, people thought, oh, people don't really want that anymore.

27:55Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And if they want it, it's like a TNT original and it's not playing in the same sandbox as the more ambitious, prestigy shows. And it absolutely is. And it deserves to be there. And I think it has a good chance to win. Adolescents showing up majorly in the anthology series categories. Most of the actors getting nominated as well. Director. Awesome. One of the greatest shows of the decade. I have not gotten around to that one. You haven't done it. So, okay. Andy. Let me think about how this is going to work for you. When do I want to set it? I understand it's poor episodes. I understand. I can get through it quick.

28:29When do I want to set aside time to watch a show about... You watch Fear of the Walking Dead. That's so different. I just...

28:38Andy Greenwald:I think... Hmm. I think that... Okay, here's my... I think that I will watch it in November when I am doing my due diligence and putting together my favorite TV of the year list. And you're voting in some civic elections, you know, just some local stuff. Maybe some amendments on the ballot here in CA. We said this when we covered the show. I'll say it again to you. It is not, it is absolutely harrowing and gripping. But it is not unpleasant. Okay. Especially one of the brilliant things about the show, I think, is that you know that you know the whole deal, four episodes, four single shots. The first episode has the language and grammar of a procedural.

29:25Andy Greenwald:So you are not as emotionally distraught in the beginning. It appears to be just like a remarkably like beat by beat TikTok examination of the police system. Right. It's only at the end of the episode that you start to realize some of the emotional things that are going to be tugged on. And then the next episodes, the episodes don't go, don't pick up at the end of the previous one. So you have a minute to like, you have a minute to breathe. That said, I would not binge them all in one night. Okay. But if you can make it through the classic Robert De Niro film, Ronin, I think you can do, I think you can do adolescence.

30:02Andy Greenwald:I also wanted to shout out my favorite actor, Brian Tyree Henry, getting a nomination for Dope Thief, which all due respect did not really deserve other nominations. But that was an example. And maybe it's because of his stature, his previous affection from the Academy and from the industry. But in a weird way, that was an outlier because we're talking about like Ken Leung and other actors. Everything was so hive mind in the sense that writers, directors, and actors were all nominated from the shows that clearly people were watching. So just seeing a different show listed in there, an actor recognized when his show wasn't, felt very rare.

30:38Andy Greenwald:Yeah. and worth celebrating. I mentioned Forrest Whitaker nominated for Andor as Saw Gerrera. He's amazing in it. He deserves it. You were mentioning before, like, is it Golden Globes-y and like trying to get celebs there? I don't know if that's the case, but I will say the guest area is... So Cate Blanchett nominated for Disclaimer, a show that I promise you only Chris and I finished. Like, I'm not even sure if the other members of the Cuaron household finished it. But she's nominated because it's Cate Blanchett. So not that she was bad, but I don't really think that that was a show that people were out here celebrating.

31:20Andy Greenwald:I thought generally there are two fantastic categories worth calling out. One is supporting actor in a limited series, limited or anthology series or movie. Okay. This is just a murderer's row. This category, Javier Bardem for Monsters, the Menendez story. Didn't catch that one. Didn't watch it, but always here to celebrate Javier Bardem. For me, I'm just going to assume that this nomination is for his appearance on Conan Must Go, the Conan O 'Brien travel program where he shows Conan around Madrid. Okay. Bill Camp from Presumed Innocent, one of the best performances of last year. I love Presumed Innocent so much.

32:00Andy Greenwald:So Presumed Innocent, that's the other interesting thing. Where is our Presumed Innocent this summer? Where is our hijack? I know. Apple. Wait, this is such a good call. That's what we should be doing right now. I know. Where is our like campy, slightly silly, but extremely compelling mystery show? Both of those shows, we talked about it last year. Summer movie theaters used to have Presumed Innocent literally the movie or that type of movie. Or hijack. Not here. Now, was I pleased to see Idris Elba on Chicken Shop Date or whatever that show's called? He was on Good Hang too. He was doing a podcast tour.

32:38Yep.

32:38Andy Greenwald:He's delightful. But I want to see him on a plane. I know. Exactly. I want to, yeah. Did you ask him when you were at Good Hang, did you ask him about Hijack season two to Jack? Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance. Do you think Amy has watched Hijack? I think she would like it a lot. I'll suggest that to her next time. Okay, I've got a couple other notes for that show. Okay, great. No, I love the show. So Presumed Innocent, not nominated as a series, but tons of the actors got nominated. Jake got nominated. Ruth Negga got nominated. Bill Camp got nominated. Sarsgaard is also in this category.

33:15Andy Greenwald:Those performances are stellar. I was thrilled to see them. Also in this category are Owen Cooper, the kid from adolescence, who is stunning. And oh, here's your way. There's a clip online, Kaya, of him and De Niro on the same British talk show because De Niro was promoting like zero day. Oh, God, that show is so cool. And someone's like, Mr. De Niro, do you have advice for Owen Cooper? And he's like, keep doing what you're doing. Nice. And the kid's like, okay, grandpa. He's like, who are you? Exactly. Kid is incredible. Ashley Walters plays a cop on Adolescence. He's in the first two episodes.

33:48Andy Greenwald:Excellent, deserving of his nomination. And Rob Delaney for Dying for Sex, a show that I did not finish, but have nothing but good feelings for. I support you. Not for me, I don't think, but I respect it and appreciate it. It was good. I didn't watch it, but I heard it was good. These are the kind of hard-hitting takes that people tune into the watch for. The other category that I really liked, strangely enough, is directing for a comedy series. Okay. I just felt like this was a really cool and diverse group of directors. So Jim Burroughs, I call him Jim because when people have been famous for 40 years and their nicknames become famous, I feel like those of us who have never met them can use them.

34:29Okay.

34:30Andy Greenwald:Like Bob De Niro, I feel like we could say. James Burroughs, the legendary, the legend of multicam directing from Cheers through basically Will & Grace, every show you've loved in the last 40 years, gets nominated for mid-century modern, a Nathan Lane comedy that I haven't watched. But I'm sure the same people who like Dying for Sex think it's good. I'm sure it's lovely. People like it and that's great. People like it. But I'm happy to see him nominated at the same time that Lucian Yellow for Hacks and Ayo Adebri get nominated for The Bear. Ayo famously, this was her directorial debut. Very cool.

35:07Seth Rogen directed the shit

35:10Andy Greenwald:out of the studio. Yeah. Like not a vanity thing. Like that show is spectacularly directed and one of the reasons why I think it is good and acclaimed is because it had such a specific aesthetic point of view. And then Nathan Fielder who doesn't get brought up on this podcast very often except when people are slandering or comparing me. Rehearsal? people love it I assume it's like mid-century modern yeah I think so same fan base same sense of humor same sensibility but broadly speaking this is the equivalent of like a student with this Emmys this is like a student film getting nominated for an Oscar because there's nothing else about the entire nominee list that suggests Nathan Fielder is being watched by anyone except maybe the comedy directors who vote on their own category so I thought those were cool categories I'm also having that same confusion with the bear that I always do.

35:59Which season is this? Yeah. Literally up until I just Googled which episode Napkins was, I was like, oh, we're talking about the latest season of the bear. Nope. Talking about season three.

36:11Andy Greenwald:And it was even more confusing last year when there was like a backlash seemingly because of the response to season three. But Liza Colonzias won for season two, a season that did not have her breakout episode. Yeah. She's nominated again this year for the season which she did her stellar work in. Yeah. These nominees are for season three. I just got to say it. The Bears is not a comedy. I'm sorry. I don't. I mean, I think that the takeaway here, one of the takeaways remains like this isn't working. Yeah. But at the same time, when you see who's nominated, we were saying like who are the comedy directors?

36:52Yeah.

36:53Andy Greenwald:Like I don't necessarily know if we should, I think keeping comedy writing and comedy directing separate does make sense. But The Bear is just not a comedy. And it's not their fault for the category. I will say that Io Adebri is often the only funny part of The Bear. That's true. That's true. Josh the Toomer was nominated for writing Say Nothing. Say Nothing, otherwise pretty much blanked, which sadly doesn't surprise me. Yeah. Especially with such a, I mean, it would be in the limited anthology series category and that's just a stacked category. Yeah, and I feel like the Emmys don't love nominating international actors.

37:31Or like actors not from the U.S.

37:34Andy Greenwald:I think both that and I think that they can give themselves a pass for ignoring it. It's like, well, we didn't know about them. We'd never heard of those people anyway. I mean, it's hard to argue that when all of adolescence gets nominated. Yeah, that's true. But that show was a phenomenon. And it was four episodes. And it was only four episodes. Still too much for you. but I'll get to it you'll get to it here's a fun quiz for you yeah Department Q did you watch that no you can say not yet this is going to be a busy fall for you Department Q received one Emmy nomination okay can you guess what it was nominated for no I could not even I respect it I'm going to tell you no you couldn't the logline of the show that show is the one with the detective Yes, Cold Cases in Edinburgh, Scotland.

38:27Okay.

38:28Andy Greenwald:It was nominated for main title theme music. Sure. Fun fact, Scott Frank, friend of the pod, co-composer of the theme music. Oh. And frankly, that's enough talent. Yeah. I'm like, and Tony's like this too. Tony Gilroy is like, oh, you know, Nick Bertel and I would sit in his apartment in the Upper West Side coming up with, I'm like, guys, pick a lane. This also reminds me, do you see who is composing the music for Euphoria season three? Hans Zimmer. Are you in? Do you think Hans Zimmer was a big fan of the first few seasons? Yeah, probably. Well, that separates us. The only other department queue note I would say is I did find it interesting that Netflix submitted it as a drama series, which suggests that they hope to continue it.

39:14Andy Greenwald:Or maybe they just thought that was their best chance. In terms of snubs, I don't know. Like we said industry. I said say nothing. Other shows that we've loved on the show that weren't recognized are English Teacher, Black Doves, The Mulaney Talk Show Experience. My favorite show of the year. Is it? I mean, I really do love that show. We love that show. But I do think it's tricky. I think ultimately, I don't know what the fix here is unless they start doing something, unless they get deeper into the Academy voting process and try to spice it up a little bit. What do you think the ultimate goal of the Emmys is?

39:50It's like, do they want to have the cultural cachet of the Oscars, but for TV, is that their...

39:56Andy Greenwald:Do the Oscars still have cultural cachet? I mean... What's weird is, for a long time, yes. I mean, I wrote this column many times back in the Grantland days, that even when prestige TV was really popping off, there still was this little brother syndrome at the Emmys, where they seemed so thirsty for approval and fame and movie stardom, that they would just shower, like if Al Pacino deigned to do an HBO movie, that movie was going to win everything. I think those days have changed, particularly as the Oscars have, and this is a big picture topic, but the Oscars have kind of detached from the cultural mainstream almost entirely.

40:35Andy Greenwald:The biggest movies of the year are generally not recognized, with some huge exceptions, but generally not recognized at the Oscars. The Emmys have kind of been struggling with that. and I think that if you look at the drama series nominees, which we could just list, I'm sure. I said, of course, I was like, we're a little late on this. We'll just touch on it. Now we're in like minute 20. But here are the nominees. They're Andor, The Diplomat, Last of Us, Paradise, The Pit, Severance, Slow Horses, White Lotus. It's tough to argue. There's a reason for all of those shows to be there And I think that the Emmys, and as much as they are a collective group that can be, if you can ascribe singular thought or motive to them, is always trying to do what we try to do whenever we can on this podcast, which is just grasp for some sort of mainstream monoculture consensus.

41:32Andy Greenwald:To that end, whether you agree with me or you have your own thoughts about like White Lotus and Severance, like they were big shows. And they drive conversation as much as conversation can be driven by TV these days. I don't know. None of them are Game of Thrones, I guess is the thing. Yeah. You know, and none of them are, to go back even further, none of them are the West Wing. Sure. Where everyone's like, well, of course, or the Sopranos, you know. Those days are probably past us. I think the inclusion of Paradise is probably the most interesting. And Sterling K. Brown nominated again. Hard to say whether Paradise's nomination is a kind of like, look, there's still TV for the rest of us kind of thing.

42:14Andy Greenwald:or it's just Dan Fogelman and Sterling K. Brown are Emmy known quantities and favorites. Yeah. And famous faces. And famous faces. I think the best argument that I've seen, and we've talked about versions of this for years, that I still think they should do just to try to get their arms around what TV is in a different way is if they would introduce an episode of the year award. award and that would you know the second episode of season two of Last of Us would be there but potentially Pedro Pascal is nominated as lead Pedro Pascal is nominated for lead actor for a show he appears in three episodes of cool but hey he's Mr.

42:57Andy Greenwald:Fantastic I mean it was a great performance he's very good and it's also Pedro Pascal but I think it would be yeah exactly everybody loves looking at him and he's so cute did you see his thing about how he after seeing himself in Wonder Woman 1984 he'll never shave again. Do you agree with this? I think that's a fair takeaway from that. Yeah, I was looking at this and I was like, wow. Yeah. I mean, that movie did a lot of things. Also, it didn't do a lot of things, which is why we are where we are in the DCU. But I think what would be interesting in this episode of the year thing if they could do it is that it would put potentially, you know, the Pit Fest episode of The Pit, the second episode of Last of Us up against Ice Chips of the Bears season three and maybe an episode of Traitors or Love Island or whatever.

43:43Andy Greenwald:Like, I think that if it would be open for all categories, it would be very interesting to see the entire voting block be like, that was the TV, you wouldn't say moment, but the episode of the year. It also might reflect the way TV is changing, which is a great way to segue to the other thing that happened while we were offline, which is CBS, as everyone now knows, CBS has canceled The Late Show, with Stephen Colbert and canceled the Late Show franchise entirely. And, you know, I think this part needs to be said again, purely for financial reasons. Yep. It has nothing to do with the multi-million dollar bribe they just paid to the President of the United States in order for a settlement to go through.

44:27Andy Greenwald:I think that part needs to be said. A settlement to go through so that a merger may happen in the near future. Between Paramount and Skydance. Well, I think there's a bunch of ways to go at this. And I think that the moral and corporate cowardice on display is disgusting and sickening and bone chilling. I also think that there is a—none of these takes are new. I think people have—this has been all the way through the spin cycle of takes. But I think that the conversation about the long-term viability of the old late-night talk show model is also on the table here. So, again, as youth correspondent, let me hit you with a gotcha question.

45:08Andy Greenwald:when's the last time you watched an episode of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert like an episode in full you're like it's 11.35pm I've just finished watching KTLA local news I haven't had cable in 10 years so like do I will I watch the interviews on YouTube yeah of course like I'll watch a 10 minute spot from that on YouTube but like yeah I mean I haven't had cable since I lived at my parents house when I was in high school so I yeah So you're the problem. I am. No, I'm also the problem. Next year, Chris and I will both turn the age that is the ceiling, the absolute ceiling of the age group that advertisers want.

45:50Andy Greenwald:So this is our last year of relevance, just to be clear. And live it up. It's totally fine. Get those takes off. The watch with Kaya and Benito Skinner or whatever launching 2027. And I also could not tell you the last time I watched a talk show. So, I mean, for me, it's more that I am asleep at that time. But it is, so I think it's important. Like, look, I love Stephen Colbert. I love him as a comedian. I love him as a moral conscience. I love him as a voice on our TV screens. I spent time with him for an interview I did years ago. I did a cover story on him for Emmy magazine. And he was... I wonder if that's still printing.

46:29God, can you imagine?

46:32Andy Greenwald:I am going to talk about the death of media, though. Hold on, of magazines in this rant. he is as lovely as everyone says he is, you know, and as compelling and interesting a figure. I love the idea also of these franchises because I also grew up in a time when you would hear rumors about David Letterman and what he was doing. And I couldn't stay up that late, but I wanted to because it seemed like there was a cool secret. By the way, there are no cool secrets anymore except apparently industry, which we're gatekeeping. so the idea of these long running totems of our cultural life it matters to me but I am not immune to the argument that that when I watch a clip of someone let's say Megan Salter on Colbert I watch that after the fact and I watch someone on subway takes or hot ones or chicken chop date Top jar chicken shop date.

47:32Andy Greenwald:Chop jaw. Chop chop. That's an old person show. We talked about top jaw, right? That's when this pretty British boy, posh British boy is like, best restaurant in Soho. Oh, no. Oh, I haven't seen that one. Well, as someone who has only serviced London restaurant content, it's pretty good. Anyway, the point being, think about how much money is being spent on each of these things versus effectiveness and reach. Yeah. I am sympathetic to that argument. It does remind me of the fact that like, so 20 years ago when Chris and I worked at magazines, like we were the beneficiaries of this ecosystem that we thought had guardrails on it where everyone was kind of in on it.

48:13Andy Greenwald:So corporations had huge advertising budgets that they would lavish on magazines and the magazines could then publish. And then artists, in our case, we worked at music magazines, in part of their album rollout, would agree to cover stories with interviews and access. Because there was no other way for them to get their message out. And it all fed each other. Yeah. And what felt incomprehensible until it happened, basically, you know, in the mid 2000s, you know, literally around 20 years ago, was that some of the players in this little symphony of backpatting decided, what if we didn't? Yeah. What if we didn't have to do it?

48:52Andy Greenwald:What would happen if we didn't, if we surprise released an album? What would happen if we didn't agree to a cover story? You know what would happen if I just put all of this out on my own social media pages and or I did an interview at Interview Magazine where my friend just talks to me. Exactly. And we all tumbled, you know, and music industry reformed and is now a different thing. But it does feel it does feel existential because I don't believe them when they say that they're losing 40 million dollars a year on the show or that there aren't other advantages to it. But the ecosystem where like movie studios are spending money and they're promoting movies with actors who have some ability to open movies and they go do the talk show and all that.

49:36Andy Greenwald:It does kind of feel like a galaxy brain. Well, what if we don't kind of moment? Yeah, it kind of feels like a brick at the foundation is being taken out and kind of being like, all right, is this thing going to topple or is everything going to be fine? And I think it also speaks to something that has been relevant in Hollywood ever since the tech companies took over, which is what business is anyone in? Yeah. I don't know if you watched Jon Stewart on Monday, but he—I'm sorry, I don't know if you were served a reel of Jon Stewart on Monday. His monologue that he gave about—yes. And as fun and inspiring and sweet in some ways as it was and righteously angry as it should have been, his basic thesis, right, was you corporations owe something to the public and we provide value with our thoughts and creativity that can't be monetized.

50:32Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And good Lord, does that speak to my permission to live out soul? Is this just like another step in the long road of like everything's just going to be like AI slop eventually and no one is going to get paid to have like creative thoughts and opinions? I don't know, maybe. Until someone says, hey, wait a second. Yes, that is where we're headed. And when I say someone, that's like saying like we could stop global warming if we use paper straws. It's like, no, the trick is they told us we could do it if we painstakingly compost. But the fucking companies don't give shit. Yeah, meanwhile, billionaires fly around on private chats.

51:10Andy Greenwald:So we can all speak, you know, stridently about the value of Colbert or art. But until someone who actually has... An intelligent consumption of media. Until someone on the actual power, which is deeply consolidated, feels that way, I don't know what we're doing. Yeah. I was glad to learn before we started recording that our parents, thanks to their diet at MSNBC, believe we're turning a corner. Yeah. any day now. Like, we got him. We got him. I think the good guys are about to stage a pretty good comeback. I heard Hakeem Jeffries is going to give a spirited press conference and we're going to nail it.

51:48Andy Greenwald:Right after they get back from their vacation. Oh, that's right. That's right. I mean, I can't wait for the Hakeem Jeffries pictures on a boat in Italy. I can like it on Instagram. Yeah, I don't know. I didn't intend for our talk about Colbert to be like as apocalyptic. And I do. And I also, I'm definitely not on the side of like, well, he should have made more money. but it was shocking though. It was shocking only because it is not surprising that even regardless of the merger and everything, I would imagine that the powers that be at Paramount, Viacom, whatever the company is going to be called, have kicked the tires on this.

52:27Andy Greenwald:Why are we doing this? Sidebar, someone posted recently, there was a great HBO movie years ago about the Letterman and Leno, based on the book by Bill Carter called The Late Shift. And basically, it's a fictionalized version of all that intrigue. And one of the inciting incidents is like you're in the CBS boardroom and Sir Howard Stringer, the head of the company, is like, how are we going to get into late night? That's a$70 million a year business. And they're like, let's just throw money at Letterman or Leno. We need to be in that business. Those days are over. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't even know.

53:04Andy Greenwald:I went off on a tangent of something that I didn't even remember what I was saying. Yeah, I mean, it's just like, I guess, continuation of the slow death of Cable. Yeah, sorry. I was just saying, it's not surprising that they considered it. But it was shocking the way that they did it without, honestly, the shamelessness. Yeah. Because they did do this because of the bribe and the merger. Or they were, they felt empowered to do it. If David Ellis and at Skydance had said like, you know what? It's important to me that we have a strong, independent voice at 1130 and that Stephen Colbert is one of the last, you know, 360 entertainers we've got.

53:42Andy Greenwald:He can sing, he can dance, he can make people laugh, he's charming. Then it would still be part of their rotation. Whether he said, get that lib off my screen or he was just like, I don't really care about that. I'm looking to maximize shareholder value. The outcome is the same. And it's a huge bummer. Yeah, like would it have happened in this way five years ago? I don't think so. No, it's cutthroat in a way that is maybe the new normal, right? Like, because they also said clearly his contract is, and it's over when his contract ends. I am not a client of James Baby Dahl Dixon, but I would imagine that conversations about extending that contract began months ago, if not a year ago.

54:25And the fact that they were like, we're good is stunning.

54:29Andy Greenwald:And that's the other reason why it sent reverberations because uh nothing is safe yeah not even chris's chair on this podcast after your performance today coming for you chris i think you've already i think you're here i think he's gonna have to do i don't know what he's gonna do now i will retire back to my comfortable seat in the dark and i think we need to work on that now that i have you on mic we don't mind you sitting over there in the dark but i feel like we should be able to flick a light on and get you on cam. For the gotcha questions? Yes. Yeah. I just feel like it's too much anonymity to stand behind your takes.

55:03That's how I prefer it. God damn.

55:05Andy Greenwald:Yeah. So after this unfortunately you'll be back in your corner and we'll only be able to hear you laugh in the background of Good Hang with Amy Poehler. No, you can hear me laughing in the background of this show too. Occasionally. When you make Teagan and Sarah jokes. That one got you. That was the best one. Alright, well as always, it was a pleasure to talk to you for longer. Thank you for joining me today, Kaya. Thanks for having me. we will be back. I'm going to see Fantastic Four this weekend. So I know, but that's what sets me apart. That's what makes me a unique, strident consumer of art and creativity.

55:36Andy Greenwald:I'm going to go see Fantastic Four this weekend. So I'll talk about that on Monday. And I just hope everyone out there is enjoying their vacations. Dog day is the summer right now. Must be nice. Maybe you can catch up on some Love Island. That's what I've been doing. I'm just going to get back into MSNBC. Good. I've heard good things. So, okay. So we're going to get into, If you've already listened to my conversation with Amanda Dobbins about Girls and the finale of Girls and this phenomenon of Girls when it aired last year? Yes. This will not be new to you. But if you're interested in a fun conversation about a show that is back in the news, according to our youth correspondent, please stay tuned and enjoy a bonus episode of Stick the Landing.

56:16Andy Greenwald:And otherwise, gosh, Baranskis, we'll talk to you soon. This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit, and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love, and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes.

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57:50Andy Greenwald:Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. For 125 years, Nordstrom has been part of your story. The stylist who found the perfect outfit for your big interview.

58:25Andy Greenwald:The first pair of walking shoes for your one-year-old. The tomato soup you shared with your sister at the cafe. These are the moments that make Nordstrom, Nordstrom. Big or small, we're here for all of it. Celebrating 125 years with new moments still add. Discover it all in Nordstrom stores and at Nordstrom.com. Hello and welcome to another episode of Stick the Landing, a brand new podcast about endings. My name is Andy Greenwald and I am so excited to be joined today by my good friend, everyone's favorite podcast co-host, co-host of The Big Picture, co-host of Jam Session, Amanda Dobbins. Hi, Andy.

59:04Andy Greenwald:Amanda, I'm so happy to be podding with you. I'm thrilled. Every week we're going to look at a television series and its finale. And look at it through the lens of the time past since it aired. And maybe reflect back on what it all meant. How we feel about it. And obviously was very eager to have you join me. And you suggested today's show, HBO's Girls. Yes. So to pull the curtain back a little bit. Let's do it. Are we allowed to do that on this podcast? It would be weird for a podcast to be confessional anyway. But maybe we could break ground today. The show that you originally suggested, I had never seen.

59:37So this was a little bit of necessity in the sense of it's a show that I watched every episode of and finished. Because I tend to be a TV quitter.

59:49Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And especially like in this sort of great finales era that we are, that I assume you're focusing on. I guess it's pretty early. they're either the kind of like game of thronesy how will they resolve all of it like big world building finale things which like no one wants to hear from me from or there is i mean that's kind of it finale wise or they're i guess like sitcoms or something i there's not that many shows where i committed to all of them and that we all committed to all of them but they weren't like big tent shows. Well, Girls Falls in a very, kind of in a unique space because it ran for six seasons.

1:00:33Andy Greenwald:It started in 2012 and ended in 2017, making honestly astonishing 62 episodes of television, of which you have seen 62. Yes. And it kind of bridges the gap between, especially for half-hour shows, or I guess, I mean, this was categorized as a comedy at the Emmys and it was very funny. But from when comedies would just sort of be you're hanging out with your friends until you're not. And then at the end, something weird would happen or it wouldn't, but it didn't really take away because there wasn't one single story to this more contemporary era of all shows are telling you a story and all shows have a, I mean, it gave us the name of this podcast.

1:01:08Andy Greenwald:All shows are an airplane trip that has to land successfully in order for the journey to have been worth it. I can't imagine that's how anyone started watching Girls. And it's interesting to reflect on the finale to wonder if that's how anyone finished watching it. Right. It is also functionally, the way the show is made is a kind of bridge between those eras, right? And I re-watched, I didn't do an entire series re-watch, but I went back and visited shows from each season. Mallory Rubin set the bar pretty high because she... I'm not going to compete with Mallory. No, none of us can. But also that's not as many episodes of TV, right?

1:01:40She did Friday Night Lights?

1:01:41Andy Greenwald:Friday Night Lights was like 70-something. I don't think we as a people really are ready to grapple with how many episodes of things there were until relatively recently. How many episodes a season was Friday Night Lights? It was 22, 22, then... Shut up. Then 13th. It was because it was one. I remember that. It was an NBC. 22 episodes. I mean, talking about bridging the gaps, that started as a broadcast network show and then ended as a more prestigious. Totally. I didn't mean to take away from your accomplishments. Listen, no one's competing with Mallory. That's. You get you get your finishing flowers here.

1:02:11I had forgotten, first of all, like how great a show it is. And it's a really great show, but it is a show as TV show. Like it has a lot of the bones of, as you said, shows that we used to watch on network TV, like hanging out with your friends. And there's an A plot, there's a B plot, there's like, are they going to get together? There are some other, and it arcs over a season very beautifully, but it does have a more traditional structure. And as it keeps going, it is trying to engage with like a larger project and the larger TV project at the time. But in some ways it's not totally built for that.

1:02:53So the finale is like an interesting thing because it's trying, I guess, and is maybe remembered, as you noted, as some larger, it's part of this finale's project. But is it even built that way to be sort of like, this is our grand statement, this is the end of, you know, six years of what we've been building towards, or is it just kind of a flourish on an experience that we all had.

1:03:22Andy Greenwald:I think one of the things that we're going to be talking about as we talk about the finale and the show is the way that Girls as a Project was constantly almost at war with itself, where it was an independent filmmaker who was working within a medium that she didn't feel completely comfortable and servicing the medium in ways that felt true and sometimes in ways that felt more, not forced, but that she was trying to fit in. Right. And the finale is fascinating for that reason. It is, I'm sure other shows have done this, I always think of it as a Breaking Bad in the sense that it ends twice. The show ends essentially in the penultimate episode.

1:03:57Andy Greenwald:Many of the characters do not appear again after that episode. And the actual finale, Latching, which we're going to get to, is in a sense one last short film from Lena telling a story that she was interested in, ending things the way she wanted to end it, but not in the more conventional way. I would argue that it actually ends three times. I love this. Because I don't know if you, and I should have texted you last night to do this, but I rewatched episodes eight, nine, and 10. Oh, so did I. Okay. So episode eight is what will we do this time about Adam? And it is the last appearance of Adam Driver as Adam.

1:04:38One of the most important creations of the show and one of the most important finds of the show. I mean, And it is a real credit to Lena Dunham that she found Adam Driver, who's become one of the great actors of our generation and is lights out amazing on this show. But so that episode ties up the Adam and Hannah story, which is ongoing throughout the show and ties up a lot of the thematic stuff specifically. And I guess we're spoiling, right? We're talking about the finale of things. So, I mean, I guess we can talk about the fact that Hannah gets pregnant in the last season.

1:05:17Andy Greenwald:It would be incredible if we danced around it. Right, right, right. But so, in some ways, the Adam episode, episode eight, like even, it justifies the pregnancy plotline for me. Okay. Because of what it brings in terms of their, like, imagined life together and then their realization that it's not going to work out. Yeah. that this really needs to be done and it's time to grow up. And that is the truest version of it. It's time to grow up, I think, of the three. And then you get the penultimate episode, which is Goodbye Tour, which is all of the four women screaming at each other in a bathroom and Tashauna being like, I hate all of you.

1:05:56Yes. Which is the true, honest ending of this show as a group of friends.

1:06:03Andy Greenwald:Yes, because, and we'll get into this, one of the things that always was confounding about the show was, are they friends? Right. What is their relationship to each other? It was very circumstantial and it was convenient at times. And I thought it was a very funny and honest snapshot of, you know, your early 20s post-college friends and the way that a group of women friends grows apart as you grow older and you're, you know, you're growing as a person, you're finding different things, you're becoming different people. and yet groups of women always have this insistence, the Marnie insistence of like, no, we need to heal and be together and have a group meeting in this bathroom and it can get really ugly.

1:06:46But like the ugliness and the love are kind of there simultaneously. As Jessa yells at one point to Adam, she's like, I hate her and that is why she's my best friend.

1:06:55Andy Greenwald:Yes, there was the line. I would watch this episode where they have their, Adam and Jessa have a screaming fight. Yeah, they're just like, absolutely. She's like, obviously, you've never had a friend before. Right, exactly. That, to me, was a great—and, like, in line with the rest of the show in terms of how they wrap up the friend stuff. That worked. And then you have latching. And then you have the finale. Which I think a short film is an interesting way to describe it because it is kind of closed off. It definitely also feels half-baked. Yeah. And to me, the other reason I picked it is because I remembered it vividly and have not watched it since.

1:07:33Andy Greenwald:Yes, me too. And remember being like, what? And I hadn't examined my thoughts since then. So I was interested to go back. And I had a lot of thoughts. But one of them was like, oh, so did you guys just have like a whole other season sitting on the floor somewhere that you didn't get to make? And then you decided to make this coda or something? Like, there is, it is so tacked on in a way. And it has moments of resolution and it's, there is, I guess, like a larger takeaway in the last shot that I suppose is related to the rest of the series, though how it's related, I kind of hate. But it's interesting.

1:08:15Yeah, but it's interesting. Like, why didn't it stop at episode nine?

1:08:20Andy Greenwald:Well, we can, I want to go back before we end up there. Although I do think watching and I rewatched the pilot and rewatched the finale and there was a lot of intentionality in terms of twinning the two episodes where there's feeding in both. There's Marnie and Hannah in bed together in both. There was some thought about, you know, mirroring it in sort of an interesting way that at least it wasn't. It may feel tacked on, but there was thought about giving closure of the whole project. But I want to go back a little bit and sort of set the scene because one of the things that I also feel is part of the conversation is the years that the show was on the air were pretty momentous in terms of how we covered television and also how the culture moved.

1:09:02Andy Greenwald:And the show was a lightning rod for so much of it because not only was it right down the middle of, I mean, like an arrow right in the heart of the culture machine. I read my own review of the first few episodes for Grantland and I was like, well, this is going to strike a chord because it's the show is about most of the people who work at new york magazines vulture or other places like that such as amanda dobbins worked and uh lived uh in brooklyn at one point i lived quite literally across the street from lena dunham perfect she lived in a much nicer apartment than i did and she deserves that uh because i she's very accomplished and she had a successful show but i i was i'm a few years older but i was in brooklyn working at new york magazine and then and here in lena as she came and went so it not only was uh reflecting the culture that was covering the culture it also in a really unique and sometimes confounding way reacted to the culture in real time um it is maybe the most online show of all time not because of necessarily its subject matter but because you can feel the tweets piling up and then the show pivoting or responding or shrugging them off or taking insult or ignoring.

1:10:17Andy Greenwald:It felt in dialogue in a way that is interesting. But I want to go back a little bit and talk about, kind of try to set the tone for what came after. So the show premieres in 2012. Lena Dunham had made Tiny Furniture, which had gotten some acclaim on the awards circuit and indie film and then got this television show. And before it premiered and before Nepo Baby became part of our national discourse, the show was already a punching bag for those reasons. Right. And I think some of it had to do with it before it premiered. It got Lena Dunham was on the cover of New York Magazine. Emily Nussbaum's profile.

1:10:56Yes. A glowing profile from Emily Nussbaum who was at the time like one of the like the great TV critic. Absolutely. It's funny to say that we were like more online then with regards to TV because all like this is one of many TV podcasts that you and I like participate in.

1:11:17Andy Greenwald:There's really only two as far as I know, but yes. Sure. So there is like a larger volume of TV discussion now, but there was something very heated and focused about the way that people were, there were like fewer recaps. And so everyone was just in one place kind of talking about it or the people who were anyway. Anyway, and so it had a huge amount of attention before you could even engage with the thing and people threw some elbows. Yeah, and I had forgotten two things in my rewatch of the pilot that I was reminded of. One was the pilot is a masterful pilot. It is absolutely jaw-droppingly great.

1:12:02Andy Greenwald:and I think has only gotten greater because I've now had 11 years of watching other pilots and did not appreciate how good it was. It is sharp. It is so funny. It is so brightly and broadly drawn. I was blown away by this as a pilot. The other thing I'd forgotten is that from the beginning, she steered into the skid and has Shoshana, like moments after being introduced, saying which Sex and the City character she is. Oh, yeah. Knowing that this was that there hadn't been an HBO Sunday night show about four women since Sex and the City. Right. And it was all the coverage was already going to name that.

1:12:40So she hung a lantern on it.

1:12:43Andy Greenwald:Yes. As we say in the TV business, right from jump. She also, that has the famous line, I'm going to be the voice of my generation, or at least a voice of our generation, which, you know, is very funny and also fueled a lot of the coverage. because, I mean, millennials, I am a millennial, so I've existed for almost 40 years now, sadly. But this was like when millennials had graduated. This was like the beginning of the millennial media boom, if you will. And so she was a very early face for it. I loved it. Thanks so much. From my position high on the shore, watching the beach at Normandy, I thought it was going great.

1:13:21Right. But so she became like the poster child for all of the old people yelling about avocado toast.

1:13:31Andy Greenwald:Yes, she sure did. And though I think she mentioned this throughout the run of the show, everyone quoted that line and she made peace with people quoting that line, but they never mentioned that the character is high on opium tea when she delivers it. That's true. So you gotta give credit where credit is due. She was in on the joke. Well, that became kind of a larger question. And I'm curious to hear what you think now about the show, which is how much was it in On the Joke? And how self-aware was it? And how much was it parodying these people versus... Yes, and how good is it to be in On the Joke?

1:14:05Andy Greenwald:Because then you just seem defensive and open to anything as opposed to rising above it. And that's a constant push-pull of internet life and of just social life in general. Watching the pilot now, I can say it again, I cannot believe how funny it was. But also the fact that so much about the pilot is about these characters all blithely saying that their parents support them or in the case of Adam Driver's character saying that his grandma, he would never take money from his parents, but his grandmother sends him$800 a month. I didn't remember that aspect of it. Yeah. So he could continue his life as an actor slash woodworker.

1:14:40Andy Greenwald:That's what the show was satirizing and highlighting. And again and again, the thing that the show was holding up for you to consider was taken and used as a weapon against it. Right. The show was at no point The show was always aware that it was about people who were in between childhood and adulthood, hence the name. And the people taking money or not being able to afford New York, that was baked in. Yes. Though that brings up an interesting point throughout the show, and especially the last season, which is what are you to do with the sincerity that is also a part of the show? And these people are ridiculous, and the show is aware of that and is making fun of them, but also has you rooting for them.

1:15:25And especially the Hannah character, who goes on a trajectory through each season, but really through the show as a whole, and winds up at an interesting place in the finale. And how am I supposed to receive the final season and the message and what this character does and how this character feels about it?

1:15:47Andy Greenwald:Well, let's start with how you felt at the beginning. Because I'm curious, as someone who, as you said, was potentially the target audience for the show, how did you receive it? And how did you experience the first season or two of the show? There's always this thing when you see art that is so closely... aligned with your experience, that it can feel like an attack as well as a representation. And it's, you know, it's not that, it's not that common for me. But for example, when I went to see Barbie this summer, you know, I think that the depression Barbie and the star bursts and the, you know, not texting your friend back because of something on Instagram, that hit home with a lot of us, you know, and it's funny, but you're also like, oh no.

1:16:35And so So everyone else noticed that. Everyone else does that too. And everyone noticed that. And so I think being in my late 20s in Brooklyn, I was just like, this is amazing. And also, oh no. And also, am I like that too? And is this, do I need to clean up my own act so I don't get looped in with this?

1:16:57Andy Greenwald:Right. So I watched it with a mix of admiration and like very personal revulsion, but mostly admiration. I mean, I loved it. I thought it was like very funny. And it is also so well-made. Yeah. But I think even at the time I could recognize like, oh, this is smart. This is actually good. Yeah, I think. And going back and looking at some of the coverage of it and also the ratings, which were consistent. I mean, HBO and ratings, especially then, they were a little bit more opaque about things, but it was absolutely a success for them. Yeah. And I think that one thing, I mean I don't want to throw out hyperbole but it's hard to think of other shows that have been more defined by people's backwards perception of it than girls actually re-watching some of the early episodes was a reminder that when the show was on the air particularly the first two seasons this was a Sunday Night Prestige show that people were excited about and talking about and engaged in not with that extra level of you know one eyebrow raised or what's she going to do now or how dare she or it did not feel like a provocation in a way that it may have later in its run.

1:18:05Andy Greenwald:When did the Donald Glover character appear? Was that season two? That's season two. That's season two. I know, which to your point of this show being so aware and so up its own digestive tract. And it happened so fast because sometime during the season one, And there was, you know, rightful observation that this was a very white, very specific and very non-representative slice of specifically Brooklyn life. And so and, you know, they don't have any black friends. They don't have any like it's just people without being supported by their parents like whining. And this was also I guess we take it for granted now.

1:18:51Now, I mean, Brooklyn is not totally gentrified, but Brooklyn, like the idea of Brooklyn has been exported to the world by its artisanal, you know, wood boards or whatever. And that was still in process and people were still digesting their feelings about that. So it was fraught. And they responded by immediately, like, having Hannah, the Lena Dunham character, dating Donald Glover. Like, within six months? It's the season two premiere. It is. and then he like disappears. He disappears,

1:19:23Andy Greenwald:but also he's a black Republican. Yeah. And it's not a natural fit on any level. And that also speaks to something that the show willingly engaged with and it was impossible for it to avoid. But like, what do we want out of our art? Right? Like, it was interesting that in the phrase you just used, which I think was very accurate, you were saying that it was a very specific slice of Brooklyn life. Sign me up. Like, when I watch things, I want them to be specific. I want them to feel true to the experiences of the creator. Right. I also want art that expands my mind and see people who are curious and questing outside of their own little boxes.

1:19:59But the show was accurate

1:20:01Andy Greenwald:to Lena Dunham's experience and to her friend group and her experiences there. You mentioned Sex and the City earlier because this is obviously in the lineage of. Yeah, well, there was sex and there was also the same city. Sure, and four women and also four white women who live very privileged lives in a very small slice of New York. And Sex and the City recently has had two seasons of a reboot called Just Like That, which I have seen every episode of. And I would like to go on record saying that I will watch every episode that they ever make of that show. David Zaslav thanks you. Just until all of us die, you know?

1:20:42It's like one by one. Them or us? I was just going to say one by one, they can pick them off. And Just Like That,

1:20:47Andy Greenwald:There were two people on the show. And it's not good. And there are a number of reasons for that. But it has been, the show, to its credit, it wants to deal with the very limited worldview of the first series. And so they've added a lot of characters of color. They've added queer characters. They are trying to explore the larger world. I think that instinct is admirable. And I think the execution has not been at the level that you would want. But it's, you know, it's another way of saying these shows are built for to do a very small thing. Yeah. And when they add the Donald Glover character, you know, it's like...

1:21:30Well, are you grading the show

1:21:31Andy Greenwald:or the intention? Yeah. And honestly, it's another reason why I struggle separating my perception and my experience with girls from my perception of an experience with the internet or with Twitter. And it bridges this era where, you know, Lena Dunham came from a pre-social media into the beginning of social media era of the internet where like confessional was everything. Finally an opportunity for everyone to tell their truths and to like live their own emo song and like I'm going to make my movie, I'm going to do my live journal, I'm going to share myself and there is an innate artistry in that and for some people that was true.

1:22:07Andy Greenwald:She then sort of straddled this decade where everyone continued to try to be like well I'm here in good faith representing myself. We are now in an era And I think the show ending in 2017, which is a pretty momentous time in culture in America and an internet culture discourse, where it became being actually like your honest self was no longer really the goal, right? It is to have this curated, correct on everything presentation of yourself. 2016, 2017 is kind of the transitional moment. That's what I think, yeah. Yeah. And I guess it ends sort of when it should. I mean, maybe it could have ended a little sooner.

1:22:44The show. Yeah, but just generationally and in terms of social media and the idea, like the ideal way to put yourself out in the world. And also this idea of that you're just being raw and honest and it's just like me out there was still somewhat novel in 2012 and then was like way overexposed in 2017.

1:23:08Andy Greenwald:Yes, but also the idea that like, if I enter into this arena on good terms and good faith, I will be treated that way. My intentions will be received that way. You know, there's an element to some of the conversation within happening within the show. And I want to talk about the show as a show, too. But I feel like it's impossible to separate them. That reminds me of watching people like public intellectuals or writers or politicians who I admire bravely strapping on the pith helmet and going onto Twitter every day and responding to everyone. Right. Like, aha, you've missed my key point here. A little posting disease.

1:23:44Andy Greenwald:Yes. Yeah. Like, I will tweet through it. Yeah. And I will be judged victorious, you know. Yes. And I say that honestly with empathy as someone who went through a period of that too. Sure. And then was just like, wait, all of this is toxic. The show's attempts to have it both ways and have its good heart win out. I have more empathy for it when doing some of this rewatch and some of these explorations. And an appreciation that the show is just a funny show. Totally. Week to week in spite of this. And when you're doing a rewatch, we are no longer living in the internet of 2014 and 2017. We're living in an internet that is in many ways much worse.

1:24:21Oh, I'm sorry.

1:24:22Andy Greenwald:I jumped in. Yes. And also you and I, I think, have like finally grown up enough to be like, well, we're just not going to participate. We're not participating in it. But it's kind of like now when a show does COVID, you know, or when a show was doing COVID and it was still somewhat COVID. And I was like, I do not want to live in this. But we have enough time now that it's more of a time capsule than having to like be watching it as not being a part of that ongoing conversation.

1:24:56Andy Greenwald:so i i guess in in the spirit of of the show itself building up over the six seasons to the finale it's sort of interesting to consider well there's two things one the beauty of the pilot and of the first season is inextricably linked to watching a young creator figuring things out in real time on the fly with a great budget you know in front of our eyes and so part of the charm of the show, I think, is the kind of cobbled together nature of it. Like, oh, we're going to take a flyer on this and we're going to center it on these people. But wait, we forgot. Oh, but that's not working. Maybe we should add.

1:25:30Andy Greenwald:Because when you then jump into seasons five or six and you're like, well, the only person Lena Dunham seems to want to do scenes with is Andrew Rannells. Yes. Who is very funny. Who's amazing. And popped, you know, in the way that like other shows would prioritize guest stars. Urkel took over Family Matters, for example. That's not fair to Jaleel White or Andrew Rannells. But, you know, but that wasn't, that's not something that she wasn't thinking at the beginning, that we were joking about Shoshana being like, this is my fiance who you've never seen, I hate you all. You could kind of see that coming in season two or three where the reason for her being there was really increasingly fuzzy.

1:26:05Yes.

1:26:07Andy Greenwald:What did, when you were watching or even re-watching those first few seasons, what did you think the quote unquote project of the show was if it had one other than episode to episode, season to season entertaining us? Was there a larger story that you felt keyed it keyed in on early. I think you're right that it's finding itself a little bit. And it's, in season one, it's not like I will now tell the story of Hannah trying to find herself in the world. I mean, I guess it is a tiny bit, but what it thinks the story of Hannah is, and it contained one season as like a 23-year-old who just graduated college and is like getting HPV and has a bad boyfriend, as we all did once upon a time.

1:26:53It is contained. And it's a little bit that classic, you have one perfect season that works on its own. And then at some point, if you're going to keep making TV shows, then the momentum and the character building and the project changes just because you got to keep, it's like a yes and, yes and, yes and situation. So I think it's idea of what Hannah could be, as opposed to season one just being a snapshot of like, kind of a mess girl sort of trying to figure it out and not really figuring it out. To will this kind of a mess girl figure it out and be a writer? And will she actually be the voice of her generation?

1:27:40And it starts to take that line more seriously than it does in the pilot, which is, as you said, a joke with her like on opioids.

1:27:51Andy Greenwald:And separate the finale totally from this, which is weird for the podcast that we're doing. Sure. But one thing that I think is really was radical then and remains radical is how unsympathetic Lena Dunham is to her own protagonist. and on like the tendency towards on shows on long running shows is a softening and of uh we love them we love writing these characters and love playing them as much as you love watching them and the edges get sanded off and there are moments when you feel that happening when people pair off or people get happy endings but you can then almost feel like someone like trying to keep themselves awake in a movie theater not like me during killers the flower by the way just anyone.

1:28:31Andy Greenwald:7.30 was just like, that was wild. I've made a terrible mistake. You could feel like, oh no, we have to sharpen this up again. And there's a toughness to it. And like I did not, I remembered, for example from the pilot, I remembered Hannah coming to her parents on drugs saying she's a genius and begging them for more money. I did not remember her waking up, trying to order room service, finding out that the room's been closed, seeing two envelopes on the table, one marked Hannah, one marked housekeeping, both containing $20 bills, and her taking both. I did not remember that. Yeah. That is a prickliness and a, quote unquote, this is the worst word ever in cultural criticism, potential unlikability that is very rare.

1:29:12Andy Greenwald:Then, now, at any time on TV history. You know what I had forgotten? And this is not, this has nothing to do with prickliness, but it's radical, which is the degree of nudity on this show. Totally. And I mean, I remember at the time this whole thing about, you know, Lena Dunham, who doesn't have a typical supermodel build, making a big deal out of like being very naked and having the type of body that you didn't normally see on screen. And frankly, you still do not just like out and almost like putting it in your face. All the time. Which upon rewatch, yeah, it was just like they are like they're all naked and they're all, you know, doing a having a lot of wild sex.

1:29:56I'd forgotten just how much sex there is in this.

1:29:58Andy Greenwald:By the way, one runner throughout six seasons of the show is that Alison Williams is never naked. And it's in the pilot when she's like, are you going to wear a bath? Are you going to keep wearing a towel? And she says, yes. And she says, I should be seeing your breasts right now. And then in the finale, it comes up again. Yes. So. Though it's, I mean, she is never like 100 % naked, but there's a lot of undress. You know, I would say it's not like she's wearing full clothes all the time. No, especially later. Sure. Yeah. With TV's favorite Eben Mosbacher. Yes. I mean, just, he's very special. I forgot all about Desi.

1:30:31Andy Greenwald:I forgot about Charlie. I mean, there's a lot of characters. Yeah. But, so I had forgotten that it's a conscious decision, the amount of nudity and also what she is doing with Hannah and how Hannah feels about her body. And it's a running theme in the dialogue as well, which I thought was a very insightful and honest, Just, you know, we're all of the 90s, like, supermodel Kate Moss era. Like, by we, I mean women my age. Like, we're all warped, you know? So, like, she was talking about it and making it a part of the character, both physically and in the writing in a way that I thought was really memorable.

1:31:14And also, it's not that it was, like, hard. That's a hard thing to do. That's a hard thing to do, and that's another ask of the character, because she's always naked. You're like, okay. So it is flaunting the expectations of a main character in an HBO show or any other show about women.

1:31:35Andy Greenwald:The choices that the show made in terms of that performance, but also just the emotional places that it went to, or the extremity of the emotions that it went to. And I feel like when we talk about extremity on television, we're talking about like how many people get beheaded on House of the Dragon or whatever. This is not that. No. And it is not, this didn't start a revolution in this type of storytelling or show. There's, I'm trying to think of anything that's comparable. I mean, you could say maybe like the television made by Michaela Cole, but she's made two limited run television shows. Right.

1:32:11Andy Greenwald:She did not commit to, and I don't mean to say that one is better than the other. Looking at interviews with Lena Dunham around the end of the show, she keeps talking about how much better the British model is. She was clearly stymied by the expectations from year to year stuff. During the course of the show's run, as we're leading up to talking about latching specifically, did you feel like there were moments when it ought to have ended, when you felt like you really wished it had ended? Well, it's funny. I think in the moment we all did, I think as the TV machinery became more obvious, you know, Adam and Jessa getting together was a real like eighth season of Friends.

1:32:51Let's, you know, throw this together and like see what's going on.

1:32:55Andy Greenwald:Shake it up and see. Right. Though then, of course, they had like amazing chemistry and that does bring something interesting out of the Hannah thing. But once you could feel the plot. Or Marnie and Ray too. right like that's another oh my god that like went on forever i mean like marnie like suddenly becoming like a member of edward sharp or whatever her i i re-watched the wedding episode and i forgot that there are multiple references to like an edward sharp video that she specifically designed her wedding run which is very funny i mean and also like that's not a name i had thought of in what 10 years um but once yeah once she has like a singing career and then um and that's how Desi comes to the show and he's great, but, and like Adam is on Broadway and Jessa is like going to be a therapist and you're just kind of like, and like Shoshana's in Japan.

1:33:46Andy Greenwald:Yes. That was a whole thing. I, you know, you just feel them scrounging for things to fill this time. There was also, and I think there's a, there's a, you can look at it through a different lens, like the whole season or half season when Hannah is in Iowa at the writer's workshop. I mean, that was interesting to Lena Dunham. You know what I mean? Like, I think she, one way to look at girls is if girls had never happened, what are the four movies that, you know, that mumblecore, tiny furniture, Lena Dunham would have made during these years of her life. And I think you could probably pick out the strands of what was interesting to her.

1:34:18Andy Greenwald:And one of them may have been exactly that, like being a bohemian academic in the middle of the country. Right. And who do you run into and what the politics of that are. Right. But even structurally, I believe it's season three ends with Hannah is going to go to Iowa and she and Adam are done. Or maybe it's season four. I don't remember. But there's a season finale. And you're like, oh, that could be the end of the show. That's the end of it. Right? Because this was a story about you and New York and a young person trying to figure it out. And then, like, you kind of figured it out. And season six, like, almost resets it.

1:34:55So to your point about the ending mirroring the beginning and there is intentionality in what they're doing, I don't mean to dismiss season six or the finale in that way. They're very good at what they do. But it did feel like a just kind of like, oh, let's do it again. You know?

1:35:12Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And what was interesting to see is in the middle of this, one of the things that marked the show. First of all, like, again, this is modern language. which I feel like when we're looking back and we're being like, we expect a level of consistency across 60 plus episodes. That's just, nobody can do that. And what's remarkable to me about looking at the breadth of the show is not just the episodes everyone points to, like the Another Man's Trash episode. Essentially, it is a bottle episode where she has this weekend in a townhouse with Patrick Wilson. Incredible episode. I rewatched it. Patrick Wilson, what a star.

1:35:45Then I spent like 20 minutes watching YouTube videos of Patrick Wilson on Broadway. Wait, did you know he was curly in Oklahoma?

1:35:50Andy Greenwald:I sure did. He's super theater. Yeah, he's super theater. I'm happy for him. Super theater slash Aquaman. Yeah. What a journey for Pat. Listen, I hope he has a townhouse of his own now. That's why you do the Aquaman. That's what I'm saying. Another studio's trash. But that, the Matthew Rhys episode, American Bitch, is also really notable. These are slice of life short films again kind of episodes. Panic in Central Park, which was the Charlie and Marnie episode. I loved that episode. I remember you and Chris Ryan podcasting about that the first time around. And another thing that was funny is that at some point I do, like, the watch episodes about these episodes still ring in my head.

1:36:29Andy Greenwald:Not mine. So I'd love to talk to him about what we said. We should have done that before we sat down. But the other thing that I think the show didn't get enough credit for was also rebounding in conventional ways. And one of the episodes I rewatched was Sit-In, which is episode four. this is the episode where at the end of the previous one Hannah has returned from Iowa and walked in to her apartment where Adam is living with Mimi Rose which is not a name it is a woman's name and a man's name with a flower in between played by the great Gillian Jacobs Can I also just say the show is so good on details because already in what is that 2015, the Mimi Rose Howard character, who's only there for three episodes, is one of the, it's like an artist who has also done a TED Talk to a women's college that was filmed.

1:37:24And it's just about making space for yourself. And we all know that joke now, and we all know those personalities in the world, but that's pretty early.

1:37:37Andy Greenwald:When Hannah walks in and there's all this tension, she says she's going to go out to get a cold pressed juice yeah it's really the details and but so but while the details were zeitgeisty in all the right ways the thing that i think really buttressed the show was um then it falls back on this tv language that really it could it could do and what i mean by that is in that episode hannah takes shelter in what used to be her bedroom and then all the other characters take turns visiting with her i mean it's like a play the way that it's set up but it's crafted so perfectly that every character is entirely themselves in a way that feels comforting and also exciting.

1:38:14Andy Greenwald:Because once you realize that Shoshana's been first and she's behaving this way, you're like, oh, Jess is going to come. Oh, and then Marnie's going to come. And what's that going to be? And then what's the wild card? Oh, it's Gabby Hoffman and John Glazer as Laird. And what's, I forget Adam's sister's name, but they're there making tea and he's creaming her feet. And, you know, it's like Richard Shepard, who's a great director, directed a lot of episodes. his partner is Jenny Connor, who was Lena Dunham's creative partner. And I think the influence of Judd Apatow was overstated, but I do. Well, not on the sixth season.

1:38:49Yes, we have to talk about that. So we'll get there.

1:38:51Andy Greenwald:But yes, so there was this TV backbone that it could turn to and make a really entertaining, well-observed show. One of my favorite things about that episode is that when Jessa comes for her turn, she's just so entirely a character that she has been from the beginning. You lose sight of the fact that these actors and Jemima Kirk is amazing on the show to a degree I didn't appreciate from the minute she arrives. It's unbelievable. And just talking about who's on drugs and who isn't in the bathroom with Marnie, in this episode where she's just casually saying that she connected Mimi Rose and Adam because what were they supposed to do?

1:39:25Andy Greenwald:It was a TV show. Yeah. It was a TV show. It wasn't a tweet. It wasn't a medium post. It wasn't a TED Talk or a thesis statement. Week to week, it was a TV show. so in January January 5th of 2016 Variety broke the news Girls is ending after season 6 and one thing I didn't remember was that there was a little two step after every season probably after the second or third where there was Lena Dunham would make a quote being like oh it's very hard to do this and we're not sure and then the implication was HBO was like we would certainly appreciate more episodes of your successful television show but that it was also they came to an agreement that they would make the season and end it Lena said she thinks America has a tendency to push shows past their due dates.

1:40:07Andy Greenwald:I like the British model. She also said, we've spent a lot of time talking about where these girls will end up. We definitely have a distinct idea of where we want to see them. I even sometimes focus on this final image I see, but between now and then, anything can happen. So this was a quote given before season six was written and broken and shot. But clearly, she had some idea of what the ending of the show would be. Going into that final season, did you feel like their work questions that needed to be answered other than that existential question of like, what does Lena Dunham think is the ending point for this character?

1:40:41So the last episode of season five is the one where, once again, just really ahead of the curve, Hannah is auditioning to be on The Moth.

1:40:52Andy Greenwald:Yes. Which, and this is like in 2016, you know, I mean, it was obviously a thing and there are plenty of people trying to be on The Moth. But, you know, there's great jokes about it. It's like a direct line to Ira Glass. And you're just like, okay, here we are all now doing what we're doing right here, you and me. We were doing it. And it's also sort of the closure of her reaction to Jessa and Adam. And the story that she's telling is the thing about leaving a fruit basket, and it's about jealousy, and she's performing, and it could be a finale. so I guess I had questions but also no because they did write almost every season finale yes in a way that it it could be the end yeah and I would say I in in doing some research for this podcast I was rereading a lot of coverage of it um at the end and our former colleague at the ringer Lindsay Zolads wrote a really excellent piece for the ringer in the finale and her argument in the end was that for her the show ought to have ended exactly where you're saying in season five, because it's not just that she reaches some sort of creative and personal closure that are united.

1:42:01Andy Greenwald:She expresses them in a way that is very Hannah, which is that she finds inner peace through a public performance of that piece, but that then she breaks into a run on the Brooklyn Bridge and there's a freeze frame. Right. And what Lindsay wrote was, she references something that Hannah says in the One Man's Trash or Another Man's Trash episode where she says she realized that she wants all of the things, that she's not, you know, some oppositional punk. She wants nice things. She wants everything. And this is the end of Lindsay's piece from The Ringer was long before she got all the things or even some of the things, the flourishing career, the professorship, the baby, but she was frozen in the exact moment she oriented her body in their direction.

1:42:42Andy Greenwald:And like that that's the place for a show about becoming, not about having become. Right. That's where a show like that ought to have ended. And then we got the sixth season. I don't know if I entirely agree with that, but I think that's well observed. I completely agree with it. And it also just does that moment of suspension. It's not like the totally saccharine, earnest stuff of season six that feels, despite all the structural similarities, pretty different from the first five seasons, right? Like, even her finding some sort of moment of peace in the season five finale is her just telling her, like, a very vulgar story about her ex-boyfriend and best friend having sex.

1:43:32And her, like, kind of getting to an okay place with it in public.

1:43:37Andy Greenwald:To be fair, Marnie is her best friend. She wins at the end, she says. But I know what you mean. And it's also, look, there's a lot of, there was a lot of contrivance in season six. Again, it's a TV show. That's part of what's baked into it. But that season five ending suggests that maybe there didn't need to be. Because the entire idea for getting this professorship handed to her. Well, okay. Before we get into that. Okay. I'm just rolling up my sleeves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there is, there's a lot of contrivance in season five as well. because season four ends with this really heartbreaking scene in the hospital because Adam, Jessa, and Hannah are all helping with the birth of Caroline and Laird's baby.

1:44:21And she's trying a home birth, which again, all of that stuff was really funny. And then they wind up in the hospital. The baby's okay. And Adam and Hannah are literally standing over a baby. and he's like, take me back, I miss you. It's this thing again. And it's, they're so good together and the Adam Driver and Lena Dunham's chemistry and that those characters works well, that it is very moving, even though it's like reheating the same, should we be together, should we not, thing that they have been doing for like three seasons at this point. So you could say that season five was sort of a contrivance in a lot of ways and maybe even season four to your point after Iowa.

1:45:03So, and that's, as you said, what happens when you make TV, right?

1:45:07Andy Greenwald:It's also what happens when you make TV when you create a character to be the archetype for bad post-college boyfriends, but you accidentally cast the actor of his generation. And then you end up with these scenarios, like in season four, when Adam is now so entwined in the plot, he has to call Desi on the phone to find Marnie. And he's never had a cell phone and he also doesn't know these people because he's on a different show and on a different planet as an actor, but we're rooting for him. And also at this point, I think he's starting to bulk for Last Jedi. He is Kylo Ren in that episode, basically.

1:45:40Andy Greenwald:His hair is long. His body is huge. By the end, he is like fully Kylo Ren. I gasped when I watched the pilot. Just because physically, he's such a weird dork. I know. And he's so young. I mean, yeah, time is during. Time the Ravager. All right. So season six. Uh-huh. You mentioned the professorship falling out of thin air. We have to talk about the baby first. Let's talk about all of them. Because that comes chronologically. At the beginning, the season premiere of season six is the Riz Ahmed episode, right? Yes. Okay. Where Hannah is now a successful internet journalist. She blogs. That is a career with legs, let me just say.

1:46:18Andy Greenwald:Just say. Could have left it there. But she's doing like the very classic, I think the moth helped her. I mean, to be clear, Hannah would be co-hosting Jam Session with you in reality. But she had the classic late, I guess it's still happening now, but classic last decade job of I'm going to go do this stunt thing and write about it for like a women's internet magazine. It was not a cruise ship sponsored by a celebrity. In this case, it was surf camp in Montauk. And so then she doesn't know how to surf and a lot of antics or whatever. And then she starts a relationship with the surf instructor or, you know, has a weekend long stand with a surf instructor.

1:47:04Andy Greenwald:Another hyphenated name, if I remember correctly. Yeah. I don't remember it exactly. Paul Louis? Yeah. Yeah. But Paul Louis. And she was like, that's two names. Right. And then he, it doesn't work out. And so she, you know, goes on with her life. And then four episodes later, or three episodes later, she has a UTI because she's still Hannah. And finally goes to the emergency room. Did you remember this? I had forgotten this. Who the doctor is? Yeah. And she goes to the emergency room. I do remember. And I had forgotten that the doctor is Patrick Wilson from the One Man's Trash episode. Which again, you know, TV is full of contrivances.

1:47:43Let's do it. But there is something still so surprising about it. He hasn't shown up since. He prescribes, you know, whatever, and then mentions almost in passing that she's pregnant. And she did not know that she was pregnant. And he tries to console her. It's like, I can, she doesn't have insurance. So he's working, he tries to work out some of the abortion details and is like, it will be out of pocket, but I can take you to a friend. And she says, who says I want an abortion? And runs out of the hospital. and then as far as I can tell whether or not she's going to keep the baby is never discussed again.

1:48:19Andy Greenwald:The decision to keep the baby. Yeah, the decision to keep the baby is never discussed again. I, respectfully, what? Like, respectfully, what in the world of reality? Respectfully, what in the world of this show? Which is where people are very neurotic and talk endlessly about every decision they make, have very complicated relationships to their bodies, are, whether or not they actually are, you know, self-progressive, like, they are annoyingly vocal about what they believe to be progressive women's rights. Yes. And an ideal, an idea of what it means to be a progressive woman. I'm not endorsing any version of it.

1:49:01It just, it's never even mentioned. And then you know that Judd Apatow is involved in the show and you think about Knocked Up. and it just kind of, it doesn't, that never made sense to me.

1:49:14Andy Greenwald:Well, it's also undermined by the fact that she agonizes a hundred times more over taking a cushy job or moving out of the city than she does over having a baby. And you could say, you know, that's part of the story and the character that she is, she focuses on the wrong things or she overinflates some and minimizes others without considering the long-term stakes of any of it. But I think there's two pieces here. One, I think the Judd Apatow thing is a smart point to bring up because his movies, again and again, express emotional journeys and comedy through remarkably traditionalist, if not outright conservative expressions of love and family.

1:50:01Andy Greenwald:Right. That's just... And family, it just all leads back to the family. That it is better to have done. And that has been true in his life, and I'm not questioning his truth, and it's made some good movies, but it is worth pointing out and feels like an odd fit for the show. I would argue that, to me, the odder thing about it that jars the most is that unlike the sort of haphazard, we'll figure it out, we'll elevate and diminish characters as we see fit and throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks spirit of five seasons of the show, the sixth season is the first time where she's clearly writing towards an ending that she wanted to do.

1:50:36Andy Greenwald:That the arrow-notched, no metaphor intended, in the first episode with Paul Louis is aiming at a target that she wanted to get to no matter what. Yes. And so everything else is an exercise in making the best possible version of something that might not feel right until she got to where she wanted to go. And it's just a different type of storytelling. And it's, I agree with you, though, it's quite jarring. It's as if it became a fundamentally different show for its last season. Yeah. And I say this as the very happy mother of a son also, and as a person who always wanted to have a kid. So it's not like the end result being motherhood is to me a problem or a thing that ideal that shouldn't be held up.

1:51:23I think motherhood's great. Two thumbs up for me. But it was just so out of keeping with the rest of the show. and so out of keeping, not even out of keeping with the character, but just was never explained. And it was kind of like, I think your observation that they were writing towards something makes a lot of sense and explains why it just feels different than the other five seasons.

1:51:49Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I also think when you look back on the show and then you also look at what Lena Dunham's career has been in her life and she continues to share all sorts of aspects of her life and I think it's fair to discuss because not only does she talk about her life, but her life and her art so frequently interact with each other that it does seem like from an artistic perspective, I'm not talking about in terms of her decision to be like, I'm writing towards something, but just what the show was ultimately for her, which I believe was a vehicle for her to work out her shit that she was interested in.

1:52:20Andy Greenwald:Yeah, absolutely. And she has been really vocal. You can read many essays in illustrious magazines about, and I think around this time, her personal health struggles, how they affected her decisions or ability to have kids or not have kids. She's written about her IVF. Like, it is a rich and fraught topic for her. And you're right. And she wrote about having a hysterectomy, I believe, as well. Yes, as a part of endometriosis. She has endometriosis, which I learned about from Lena Dunham. She's really been out there and has also been out there about the emotional fallout of all of it. I have found the real life version of her work, you know, like her personal essays in Hannah Horvath tradition to be more affecting than season six.

1:53:15Though it does make season six kind of sad because if she is working through some stuff.

1:53:21Andy Greenwald:Yeah. You know, I mean, it's complicated for sure and interesting. There's so much that's complicated and I think richly emotional and significant for her as a creator that was also easily ripped at, gobbled up, digested by the media that was already in place to do that with her. Such as the fact that the baby that she has is a baby of color. The father of the baby is Riz Ahmed. It's fraught. And she goes right at it. and whether it was the right choice or not right choice, I don't feel like I'm in a position to say, but it made the whole conclusion of the show very noisy, I would say, culturally.

1:54:03Yeah. Which, you know, I guess in a different model,

1:54:06Andy Greenwald:maybe that's what you want. You want people talking about your art, but I feel like our experience of this show, as it was building up to these last few episodes of the season in early 2017, was charged. It's funny. I told you I remembered the Watch episodes, but I don't remember, I remember you and Chris saying, even at the time, well, like that episode nine was really the finale, you know, and that was the closure of the TV show that we all watched together for six seasons. And the women yelling at each other in the bathroom was, you know, was kind of it. And what's funny is that I remembered the details of Latching, the actual finale.

1:54:48And I remembered the episode where they're all yelling at each other in the bathroom, but I didn't remember when that happened. But I was like, in my head, I have two finales at once. And I was like, okay, but that's the actual ending. And that is what felt like the closure of the show. And I had forgotten that it was so close to the actual finale.

1:55:11Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And I was really impressed with episode nine in a way that I think I probably was at the time, but I had forgotten about that. There's a beautiful, there's the big fight in the bathroom, but then there's this beautiful cross-cutting of all four of them in a way individually dancing, which is a callback to what I still think is the series highlight, which is the dancing on my own sequence at the end of episode three of season one. All adventurous women do. Yes. One of the great episodes. Yeah. Yeah. This time they're dancing to a song by Banks, but it's intercut with the crowded party and then Hannah moving out and moving in and spinning on the dance floor and spinning in a chair open to the possibility of her new life.

1:55:54Andy Greenwald:It's kind of like we were saying at the end of season five. So we got that sense that there's something new. So let's talk about Latching. The finale was written by Lena, Jenny Connor, and Judd Apatow. Receives a writing credit. He had received writing credits on various episodes throughout the year. but this, I thought that was interesting that the creative triumvirate that brought the show, that birthed the show, if you will, came back together for this. Jenny directed the finale. It was just the description on the little box was, Hannah embarks on a new chapter. Yeah. So after a cold open, where Hannah's still pregnant, and Marnie shows up and gives the speech that you referenced earlier, where she says, you know, I win.

1:56:31I'm your friend. I'm your friend. Let me help you take care of the baby. And she is essentially, she's giving the same speech that Adam gives two episodes previously. So there is a, you know, a nice symmetry to that and that fits into the theme of, you know, your friends are the real loves of your life not to be too Sex and the City about it. That's a thing that happens in Sex and the City, Andy.

1:56:52Andy Greenwald:I'll get to it. Then they cut to like five months later? Is that how long it is? It's five months later. And the baby, Grover, is here. And it's, Hannah and Marnie taking care of Grover in this idyllic house upstate that is, by the way, just instantly furnished. Beautiful house. Fully. Incredible. Amazing views. They're very close to Tivoli where there's a wine and cheese night. So we'll just let you know that's a lovely part of upstate New York. We have to assume she's teaching at Bard. I feel, this was, so I assume that they set the episode there because it was near where you got married. Right?

1:57:33Andy Greenwald:It's a beautiful part of the state. That's, it's a little more. I've lost my geography. Yeah, it's a little more. Hold on. East. East. We got married very close to Pennsylvania. As a tribute. Yeah. To your husband. Yeah. I appreciate that. Sure. No problem. And they are just raising a baby. And the main, like, stressor of the episode is that Grover, the baby, will no longer breastfeed. He will not. He did at the beginning of his existence. and now he will no longer latch. Yes, he will. Giving the episode its title. Accept the bottle. Yes. But he will not latch. And then it becomes an exploration of early motherhood and what you want to give to your child and what you give to the people in your life that you love.

1:58:27But really mostly what it means to be a mom. And at some point, Hannah's mom shows up in order to kind of make it all work out. And then at the very end, after Marnie has decided that it's time for her to move on with her life, Hannah, well, I guess Hannah encounters a teen.

1:58:47Andy Greenwald:So Hannah's having a tantrum. Obviously, she's sleep deprived. She's under a lot of stress, but she has... Is she? She's sleeping till 11 all the time. She seems, she's fine. But who can say? It is not my place to judge a new mother. But she does, she's exhibiting very Hannah-esque behavior in the sense that something is not going her way. She's faced with a challenge. And she seems dead set on throwing up her hands and giving up and saying, he hates me. Right. He's much happier. And Marnie is the living embodiment of mommy blogs. Yes. Saying that, you know, you're supposed to do it this way. This is special.

1:59:27Andy Greenwald:It's better if you do this. She gives the whole breastfeeding, like breast milk statistics. Golden, liquid. Yeah, liquid gold, which I have some thoughts on for later. But right, Hannah's given up. He hates me. I can't do this. She goes on a walk. So Marnie then, in a panic, calls Lorene, who's just Becky Ann Baker, just unsung, one of the MVPs of the series. amazing, tough, surprising, fun performance throughout. Low-key, best part of episode, season finale of season five is Becky Ann Baker and Andrew Rannells sharing 40s on the street. Oh, great stuff, yeah. Getting drunk, and he's like, three more beers, and I'm going to try to fuck you.

2:00:11Andy Greenwald:And she's like, turns out you're my type. Anyway, she comes in and gives a little tough love, and Hannah just says some wild shit back to her mother and storms out. Goes for a walk. Right. Gives up. encounters a teen who seems to be in distress. So Hannah off and doesn't have any pants or shoes on. So Hannah offers her her pants and shoes one last taking the clothes off, which I respect. And is trying to help the teen, thinks she's, you know, thinks she's like running away from a boyfriend or something. And then it just turns out that the teen has run away to escape doing her homework. And Hannah like finds her light basically and gives a speech about what, in defense of the mom who is making her do her homework.

2:00:56And what does it mean to be a mom and your mom's this? And she kind of, you see her clicking in, in real time to what it is to be a mom and that there is a mom inside her. even if she doesn't totally consciously realize it. And then there are some more antics about her getting home. She gets home. Grover wakes up. She's like, I got it. She goes in. And after an episode of him not latching, he latches. And the last shot is her looking, a beautiful piece of acting by Lena Dunham, her looking contented as this baby finally latches. And I think you're meant to understand that she's going to, once again, she's going to be okay.

2:01:37She's in a place where she figured it out and she can do this.

2:01:41Andy Greenwald:Yeah. She's accepted the challenge and met the challenge for once. And the baby has latched. Yeah. And then she sings Fast Car. It's interesting. It's tough. And we should say that this episode aired and I think immediately there was a flood of, vitriol is not the right word, but this was a conversation starter. Yeah. This was not a, wow, they stuck the landing. This was a delightful, perfect end to the series. This was a wait, what? Reading the reviews of it the next day. I'm actually continuing to be really impressed. Like the TV critics of that era, some of whom are still working as TV critics, were like truly like the ER surgeons in that they like instantly kind of captured a mixed feeling correctly.

2:02:26Andy Greenwald:I feel like Jim Poniewozik in The Times wrote a really strong review. Emily Nussbaum, who kind of... Has championed the series throughout. Championed the series, wrote that first piece. wrote a really strong mixed piece for The New Yorker. And her point, because I feel like we can get right into it, was about the speeches in the episode more than anything else. I mean, she's like, it was funny. It was surprising. These are all good things when you're talking about a series finale. I'm going to quote her here from her piece from April 2017 about those speeches. I know many people found them refreshing as people frequently find it refreshing whenever the girls' characters call each other narcissistic assholes.

2:03:03Andy Greenwald:My own feelings were more mixed. It's been striking to me as the seasons have passed that with increasing regularity, the speeches the characters on Girls Give have begun to echo the diatribes that are made toward girls. It's the familiar music of Twitter trolls. Grow up, Snowflake. Put on your big girl pants. Fuck your feelings. The secret ingredient is contempt. Yeah, that is very perceptive. That is not at all my problem with the episode, though I think it's right. I think it definitely explains kind of where the writers, the filmmakers are coming from, or theorizes anyway. I just don't like that this is the end.

2:03:44I mean, I have problems with this as an ending.

2:03:47Andy Greenwald:So let me, I'd like to hear them, who you remember feeling in 2017 versus what you thought on this rewatch. Sure. I remember in 2017 being like, what? and I think it was a mixture of this doesn't make sense and this character has not really made sense to me as a character or as the character Hannah that we've been watching since the just total running headfirst into motherhood without any sort of support and the job falling from the sky at a really good college and then suddenly moving upstate. and I, you know, I was just like, this doesn't make sense. Plus, is the takeaway that I'm supposed to take away from six seasons of Girls is like, oh, but it's, you know, the most important thing is breastfeeding your child.

2:04:40It's a very traditional, small-c conservative moral or, you know, it has that Apatovian, like family is like the most important thing. And, you know, does that line up with the show? Does that line up with my own values of what I want a young woman of my generation to be thinking? I think at the time I was kind of like, I don't really get this. And I think now I mostly feel the same way. And I say that as someone who since 2017 has become a mother and who did breastfeed. So I'm not against any of those things. I'm very against the mommy blogging that Marnie parrots. And they do a mostly good job of presenting that as the, you know, the hogwash.

2:05:28The baby finally gets formula at the end and God bless formula. And he seems fine. And he likes it, as they say. So that's like mostly okay. And they are identifying even there a little bit like the tensions and the politics like within that thing, which like maybe no one cares about. but I lived it for like a year because you really, breastfeeding takes a long time. You also just like, it just, it literally, it's like a job. It takes so much time all the time. You know this, but I think that there is something interesting going on there with the idea of like Hannah and her body and the way that like the, that body has been a character in the show and what a body can do, do and what it can't do.

2:06:16and how to feel at peace about it and how your body like connects to another person and what you use it for that is like interesting and maybe there's like a glimmer of hope there or something. But otherwise it just kind of bums me out. I mean, I'm glad he latched, but you know, that's good if that's what you want. Like the bottle was also doing fine, but I'm like, this is ultimately what I'm supposed to take away that you just completely dropped this entire life that I spent a lot of time investing in and that, you know, even if I was judging it simultaneously because it was part parody, but that it suddenly became so sincere and none of the rest of that mattered and this is what matters was just confusing.

2:07:02Andy Greenwald:I hear you and I think I agree with you. I don't remember what I said about the show on the podcast at the time. I don't think I was super positive, but I think I was open to the possibility of it and I appreciated the artistic swing. Like there was a vision that she wanted to do and she did it and they aligned the season to suit that. And anytime a finale tries something different, I'm interested. You know, I think that there's something to be said for that, that there's still life in it even at the very end. All of that said, re-watching it, it felt much flatter to me. It felt like someone trying on clothes that just didn't fit.

2:07:40Andy Greenwald:it didn't feel in the same spirit of the show. And it also felt like the push-pull of the argument within Lena Dunham as a person and as a creator that fueled the show, which is embodied in that One Man's Trash thing where she's like, I behave this way, but I want all of these things. Right. The push-pull between being an outsider, but also wanting comfort, wanting to be an insider, wanting, you know, all of it. At the end, it felt like she was sort of taking that argument and just sort of pushing it onto the table and throwing up her hands in a way. I don't know that the show ultimately needed to give us this level of resolution, which is not something that one often says about a long-running TV show.

2:08:20Yeah, we already had the resolution in the Adam episode where, you know, for one day, and it mirrors one man's trash in a lot of ways, they make believe that Adam is going to help her raise the baby and they run around Brooklyn and they, you know, and it's, they make plans and they go baby shopping and they have this incredibly moving moment at a diner. I think shortly after they've discussed doing shifts at the co-op, the Park Slope food co-op. And where they both realize like this is, we're living in a dream. We're living in something that is like never gonna happen. This doesn't make any sense.

2:09:02And that is the moment of waking up. and for this baby dream, but also their relationship, you know? And I think it's really moving. And then they have the next episode, which is all the friends and the we hate each other and Hannah's on her way somewhere else and she's trying to say goodbye and the goodbye is yelling in a bathroom and then dancing, which feels right. And you can even do that with her going off to then have a kid and have a new job and have a new life, that all feels like resolution. That's why earlier when I was saying that it feels almost tacked on in some ways, they just, because there was like a whole other world that was interesting, that Lena Dunham wanted to explore.

2:09:49Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And apparently only had like one episode for it. It's odd because if ever there was a show that could have earned the graduate ending, which is one of my all-time favorite endings, and Michael Clayton does this too, where it's like you get the big thing and then you linger and the camera still rolls. You get the sense that people's lives go on and actual real life is not necessarily capped off by traditional celebrations or markings of time. Life just keeps going on. You have to sit with it and live with it. And that's a show called Girls. That's baked into the premise that there's just a lot of uncertainty to go.

2:10:20Andy Greenwald:Also thinking about the show over six seasons, what are the stakes of it? The level of peril is low. Emotional turmoil, yes. But in terms of her general safety, and I'm saying this is fine, but what I mean by that is leaving her in a place of professional or personal turmoil does not communicate that she's doomed because this is the show. She's fine. Her floor is relatively high. So this sort of ending, it remains confounding. And it remains confounding, too, considering the three people who wrote it. Whereas you have Judd Apatow, who is an older, very successful man for whom having children and making movies about people pairing off and having children has been enormously successful.

2:11:01Andy Greenwald:No notes. The reason for everything. Jenny Conner's perspective on it, I'm fascinated by because she's older than Lena by at least 10 years and has children and has made certain choices in her life and feels a certain way about them. And then Lena, who's the youngest of them, had not faced these decisions necessarily yet or was thinking about them. And was not sure what they were going to be in her own life or whether they were going to align with what she wanted, which she has been pretty open about. Yes, and I think that there is also... Which I admire, by the way. Totally. These are super hard things to talk about.

2:11:31Andy Greenwald:I want to be clear that we're not judging anyone's personal decision-making or the artist's decision-making, but purely in terms of what it means for these characters in the artistic life of the show. One thing that you and I can say from very different perspectives, but I think shared nonetheless, is that you can tell yourself that being a parent won't change you or won't affect your professional or whatever goals you have. But it fucking does. It fundamentally changes so much of you. Yeah, though I do think... Not necessarily negatively, but it changes things. No, but I do think my ultimate, like my instinctive ultimate rejection of the finale is the implication, you know, this is a show called Girls.

2:12:08and then so the last moment the last shot would theoretically one way to read it is like this is the moment that you are no longer a girl you're a woman and so this idea that it like only when you're like physically giving your body to another person like that that this this act of motherhood is the differentiation between girl and woman i would like really i reject that and i reject that as someone who has like become a, you know, a mother and understands how it does change you. I think it's not the only thing. Now, maybe I can say that because I've had the experience and you, if, you know, this is written as I understand it from a place where Lena Dunham is still deciding if she wants to do all of it.

2:12:52And so it's imagining another option. I, you know, I don't know. I just, it bums me out. I mean, it bums me out. It's like not a big deal because it felt, because we got all the other finales. You know?

2:13:05Andy Greenwald:We got them, yes. Yeah, we got them. It didn't ignore them. We were not poorly serviced. Yeah, we got all of the other resolutions. And I really admire Emily Nussbaum as a critic. The speeches didn't bother me as much as... Like, I guess I like it sometimes when people say this thing that is supposed to be sad. I'm also an Aaron Sorkin fan, you know? There you go. So, like, we just have to be very honest. So, when she's yelling at the... the teenager. I had forgotten it and I was kind of, I was like slightly moved by it. Sometimes the best work comes from friction. And I think some of the best work of girls came from the friction between a very young independent filmmaker who made art like she was blogging and industry vets.

2:13:52Andy Greenwald:People who were like, why are you saying all these other things that are half things? Say the one thing. Do it in 20 minutes, not two hours. I mean, that friction fueled some of the absolute, the best of the show and why it was successful. And sometimes some people won and they made a conventional episode, like the one where all the boys, the one called Boys, where they all go to, was it Staten Island or something? And it's just like, that is TV 101. Like, what haven't we done? Who hasn't, haven't we gotten together? And it also fueled great things like the standalone bottle episodes we're talking about, where all prior TV industry writing advice was ignored and she made something that just felt like straight from her heart to the laptop to the screen.

2:14:29Andy Greenwald:that's fascinating and I think good but to stay within the realm of TV industry jargon she broke up the show ended when she broke up with the dominant relationship she had on the show which is New York she broke up with New York she moved away yeah it's a hat on a hat for her to then also also get the other final thing and also find emotional all of these things felt additional Annie you really gotta watch the Sex and the City finale let's you'll come back for it We'll do it for this podcast. Spoiler alert, Carrie tries to break up with New York. It's perfect. Yeah.

2:15:08Andy Greenwald:I think the other thing that we should note, and we should begin to wrap up here, but it's interesting to consider because you can't separate the art from the artist really with the show because it was Lena Dunham from the beginning and it was Lena Dunham at the end. The years that this show spanned are pretty interesting years in anyone's life. I mean, from early 20s to the cusp of 30, basically. And what's interesting about a finale that is so definitive in so many ways that we've been criticizing throughout, there's a ambiguity and a struggle that you sense on the margins with her own role in a larger conversation with girls younger than her and women older than her.

2:15:48Andy Greenwald:There's just like a drive-by episode. there's the girl who's mad at her mom in the finale. There's the people who are moving into the neighborhood who are like the new generation version of Hannah and Marnie in episode nine of season six. I think it's ultimately a good thing that this was never, as an artist, she was never settled. It's still like freaking out about stuff. It is still so, it is not jaded in any way. It is desperately trying to be good and interesting and dealing with everything, getting its arms around so much. And that's the spirit of the show. And I think one of the things we're bumping on is that that last image is the antithesis of that.

2:16:28Andy Greenwald:And maybe she was just seeking peace because it does seem like this was a challenge to make the show. I have two positive things to say. Yes, I'd like to hear that. So one is that, and I've been thinking about the title of this podcast, Does It Stick the Landing? And in the sense that it is a show that we're, it is an episode that we're still arguing about and arguing with, however many years later, which was in a lot of ways the girl's experience. Yes, it was. It does stick that. And then there is something about one of my nitpicks with the show was, in rewatching it, was just like the complete absurdity of their parenting setup.

2:17:05I mean, there's just no one there. And raising a child at all times is really hard. But those first few months, it's like all hands on deck, you know? And no one's sleeping till 11. No one's sleeping. Yeah, no, especially she's pumping all the time. Like, again, so I was just like, where are the people? Like, what's going on here? This is absurd. But, and like these two girls don't know how to do anything. But that means that the episode does take on like a one man's trash. It's Panic in Central Park, like almost bottle episode, almost dreamlike. Is this really like happening quality? And I don't know that that changes the way that I still interpret the last image.

2:17:49but it does make me question whether I'm interpreting it the right way and maybe there's different intention and maybe there is some sort of I know that like this isn't realistic maybe there's longing in it I'm not totally sure so I could be getting it wrong is I guess the other way that I'm saying it

2:18:08Andy Greenwald:I think that's a good way to sort of wrap things up because I think you can look back to the show and there are so many gifts that it gave us in terms of like incredible performances and careers and surprises. But in a way, I felt, it's interesting. I know I just said I felt more critical of the finale, but overall, I feel so much more warmly towards the show. Amazing, amazing show. And not just amazing for what it is week to week. And I think people should, like, honestly, if you're listening to this this far and you haven't done this recently, rewatch the pilot. It is so much better than I remembered.

2:18:40Andy Greenwald:It is excellent. But it also felt like just the nature of our conversation, which is this deeply personal, polarizing, weird thing that could be one type of show one week and a completely different experience the next week that season to season could take such wild stylistic and swings in style and swings in quality. A show that could end with one person who is living and breathing and performing the burden of this show on set but also in the press for six years being like, this is what I want to do. That feels far away. it feels far away in TV people don't get these chances anymore necessarily and they don't take them and run with them to the degree that she did too often we're sitting here praising if Chris and I are in the same studio talking about Andor we're not talking about like whoa that was a wild swing Tony Gilroy is a god and everything is precise and he has delivered a Star Wars product that is perfect for me Yeah.

2:19:43This show was perfect to no one at all times, but sometimes perfect for everyone.

2:19:49Andy Greenwald:And I think that's a pretty interesting, non-profitable way to consider something in the streaming era. It was really fun. Yeah. It was really, I know that we're painting this time as like the hellscape of the internet and of conversation. Oh, we're the hellscape now. I mean, it's, you know, we're all growing and evolving the hellscape together. But it still, it was a little bit monoculture, at least like HBO monoculture. And it was fun and engaging, and it engaged a lot of people, whether, you know, in bad faith or good faith or in anger or in celebration or in provocation. And that was cool.

2:20:28And it doesn't feel like people were still yelling at each other instead of yelling next to each other, if that makes any sense. Yes, both yelling. Yes, exactly. Yeah. We were still thinking. I think there was still some, the level of cynicism was not the way it is now.

2:20:42Andy Greenwald:There was still a sense that you could change someone's mind or that you could show them your true self and have them recognize the value of that in an online forum. I don't think that's true anymore. Yeah. And I also think that, and this is a perfect segue for watch big picture crossover stuff. And we've even touched on it before. Like there really is no indie film of TV. Everything goes through the larger machinery, which you understand. The other thing though, that there isn't a lot of in TV. And this is not indie TV. This is HBO. But young people, like if you switch to the music industry, often like people can make their own recordings.

2:21:16Andy Greenwald:They release independent records. They find their voice. And then the major labels come in when they feel they're ready or when they're ready to go widescreen or make bigger music or whatever. This is a show made by a 24-year-old who is empowered to do all of it as a 24-year-old with great help and a great crew and all of that. That's pretty unique. You know, I think primarily shows about youth are made by people who've experienced it and come out the other side. And so every decision that we see, if this show was made by Lena Dunham in her late 30s, every decision that we see Hannah and Jessa and Marnie and Shoshana make would be predetermined with that backwards-looking sense of scale and what it meant and how some things were actually important.

2:21:58Andy Greenwald:Even if it was done with the spirit of girls, I feel like that thumb would be on the scale, right? Right. This is just a, I've said it before, just tweeting through it. Things felt absolutely existential because that's how things feel when you're that age, right? It is a very special show. That's the other thing. It's still really funny and really well made. Whether or not they got everything right, I enjoyed rewatching it. So there are finales that negatively impact one's impression of the entire show. There's finales that, you know, I reference these things a lot, but like when Newhart ended with, it was like, oh, it was all a dream.

2:22:41Andy Greenwald:No one was like, I can never watch season three of Newhart again knowing it was a dream. Also, they were like, I could never watch season three of Newhart again because I didn't tape it on my VCR. Right. um but so the categories that that when when bill and i were talking about this podcast that he gave me that maybe we'll sort of always go through at the end of these shows he he was like there's five types of finales five finales you meet in heaven or hell depending um one they landed the plane everyone's happy great job two they took a big swing and it was super fucking polarizing three they fucked it up okay four uh they limped to the finish line and it just kind of dribbled away five it didn't seem like the plane was landed but in retrospect oh my god everyone's safely on the ground i think this is they took a big swing and it was polarizing i agree which seems like i'm i'm really curious now what other finales are gonna go i mean that's why i'm gonna listen to this podcast great job great idea for the podcast hey thanks um but i i think a lot of finales are or two actually.

2:23:45And to go back to the point that you started with, which is how this TV, this show bridges like a lot of TV eras. I think when it started, there were fewer take a big swing and it was polarizing finales. And by the end, it was kind of like what you had to do as a prestige show. So they, you could also argue that they both landed the plane and fucked it up because they gave you the two episodes before where they landed the plane perfectly and then they fucked it up but i think that counts as big swing i think the thing that's

2:24:18Andy Greenwald:going to remain confounding and maybe make the girls finale be unique is that this show i think the audience was primed for a polarizing swing this show polarized yeah from the second it premiered it polarized and one of the things that was remarkable about it is that even though you know i've been talking about like reactionary defensiveness or talking back to the internet of stuff throughout the show. Fundamentally, to your point, Lena Dunham kept taking her clothes off metaphorically and literally throughout the show. And it was, you know, I always caveat the word brave when talking about making a TV show for HBO.

2:24:53Andy Greenwald:But yeah, there was a boldness, let's say, in the storytelling episode to episode, season to season. So a polarizing finale makes sense for girls. What I think people have trouble articulating is polarizing like this. this is not the turn that we were ready to even argue over. Like, there just hadn't been this such a wide swing towards, as you said, small C conservative family values. Right. That, the show didn't even, I mean, the way that Elijah talks about New York in relation to the rest of the world, just like, this show lives in New York where we don't do those things. And as soon as she leaves New York, she's just consumed with being a mother in, quote unquote, the right way.

2:25:35Andy Greenwald:That, still rankles. It still surprises. Yeah. I don't know. I know in a way it works perfectly for this show. It does. But for this show only. Because what is the show if not us arguing about it? Yeah. Or people like us. And a head scratcher. Yeah. So it died as it lived. Yeah. Right? So maybe it did stick the landing. This is interesting. I don't... In the spirit with which it launched, that's the thing. Yeah. If it's a chaos plane from the minute it leaves what do you think? There's going to be a like this isn't going to be a landing where everyone in 33C applauds. That's very true. So I think I think you've created a new category.

2:26:16OK.

2:26:17Andy Greenwald:Which is was this even a plane? What were we doing for six years? My God, I can't believe we're back on the ground. Yeah. But it was consistent. It was. Yeah. We got there.

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