Emmy Predictions, Netflix Is Adapting ‘Lonesome Dove,’ and ‘The Paper’ Season 2

22:43Andy Greenwald:Which, so... I did a little bit of back of the envelope casting what ifs. Did you? See, this is what you do when I'm doing other stuff. I just want to bounce some ideas off okay this is a really difficult thing to cast not be just because robert duvall and tommy lee jones own these parts but we've got a bit of of an emergency in american acting you know there was actually like recently a bit of like a there was like a story about it was just basically one of those like here's a chart and you're like oh okay that seems good or bad but like it was basically about the the increase in um british actors in american films and television and the decrease in american actors and the pipeline is a little dry like not only in terms of performers in the age brackets that we're looking at for these characters but also performers who don't look like they were on the mickey mouse club 10 years ago Yes.

23:42And so we got to talk this out. To me.

23:45Andy Greenwald:Or actors who haven't continued to address their lack of Mickey Mouse features with some external work. Makeup is a powerful thing. Now, it's also worth noting that we're talking about Lonesome Dove. Then Streets of Laredo is the sequel. So that would be a very aged character in that book. We won't want to spoil anything for anyone. And then Dead Man's Walk, Comanche Moon prequels. Yes. Now, I would imagine we're going to get two sets of Call and McRae. I don't think we're going to have one person play all these different parts because we've got like early 20s to late 60s, I believe, or 70s. And we have no reason to think that they are doing anything other than tracking not just the recommended reading order, but the publication order, meaning Lonesome Dove chronologically is third.

24:35Andy Greenwald:Yes. But it was the first published, and it's the most popular, and it's where you should start the story. Lonesome Dove will be the first. They're going to make Lonesome Dove, and if it works, they will make more Lonesome Dove, but they are making Lonesome Dove. But they will take in the other books. But yes, the preferred reading order is, in chronological terms, is three, four, one, two. So the hardest thing for me to do was to unwind my initial thought about Gus and Woodrow. Okay. And it's McConaughey and Harrelson. Wow. I know it comes with a lot of baggage. They're about to do their second TV show together, their brothers on Apple.

25:11Yeah.

25:12Andy Greenwald:Is it about male friendship? It is, actually. And I'll watch it. And I think people would bring some True Detective baggage to it. This is smart. They're Texans. Yeah. They're the right age. They actually are. I think you could age them up or down a bit if you needed to, as evidenced in True Detective, where they span a decade, a half or something. Both comfortably, I believe, older than Tommy Lee Jones was when he aged up to play Call in 1989. Yes. Obviously, Tommy Lee Jones and Robert Duvall had a more weathered look than I think Woody Harrelson and Tommy. But we were at a different place with peptides then.

25:49Yes. Here's a couple of concerned trolls about this idea. Okay. Number one, A, is like, are people going to be able to get over, like, that's Woody Harrelson and Matthew McConaughey? I think they would.

26:01Andy Greenwald:Number two. And by the way, you're saying McConaughey as Call and Woody as Gus. I think that's the obvious one. I think you could invert it if you wanted to be like, do you guys want to try something different? I think McConaughey could play both parts, but I don't know about Woody. I think Woody in True Detective showed that there is some Woodrow in him. Some Woodrow in Woody. Yeah. I think that there is like, he would have that capacity. and I think Matthew McConaughey could certainly play a rascal but when I close my eyes I can see Woody Harrelson making biscuits yes beautifully said so let's start there okay great do you have any other suggestions off the top of your head of an actor say age 40 to 60 who could embody either of those two parts diabolical well you know why it's diabolical I was not prepped for It's because there really aren't any.

26:58And also, you very quickly need to then start thinking about Australian and English actors.

27:04Andy Greenwald:Yeah, the drop off from McConaughey and Harrelson to A. Hemsworth is quite steep. Or even a Guy Pearce. I mean, Ethan Hawke, I think, could potentially look okay on a horse. Yeah. But, yeah. Let's go to Jake Spoon. Okay. Okay. Jake Spoon, we've talked about this many times, but one of the interesting things about the original miniseries that I'm sure they will correct is that there is such a, there's a very bright line between the movie actors that did this and the TV actors of the time. Well, thankfully there is no line anymore. There is no line anymore. And that's not necessarily a dig against Robert Urich or Ricky Schroeder, but there's a differing level of charisma on the screen.

27:54Andy Greenwald:in that miniseries. How about Tom Pelfry or Eben Moss Bacharach? I think it's great. You got to have somebody who's soulful but shifty. Incredibly charismatic and incredibly self-sabotaging. And has a lot of demons but is also able to be a true snake charmer. Are you going to say Bernthal is Blue Duck? Look me in the eye and say it's not on your list. It's not on my list. I haven't gone that deep down the casting line. I have a couple others that I'll throw out there. Yeah. For Dish, I did break my America First edit, and I do have Leo Woodall as Dish. That's cool. And for Newt, it's really hard, because I think, even though Newt's supposed to be like 17, I have Jacob Laughlin.

28:46Okay. Landman Jacob Laughlin. Yeah, he's good. but he's a little older. He's older than Newt. Yeah. Like demonstrably. I don't know if you age Newt up. I don't know like what you want to do with that, but. You have a Dietz? I don't. With Keith Stanfield? I think it's pretty good, man. I think I, I, This is exciting. Yeah. They should hire us.

29:06Andy Greenwald:I'll just say it. They should bring us on. Yeah. Cause. Male friendship consultants. Dietz is in his forties. I mean, it doesn't matter. I mean, you can do whatever you want with it. I mean, Danny Glover played him famously in the miniseries and was incredible. yeah I think that's exciting do we have a Paul Dano spot? yes July Johnson? that's a great call his arc that's going to be a fun one to cast because it really is going to reflect how people see this character and his arc is a little more heroic seeming but it depends how you see the character it's Chris Cooper in the miniseries to play the part, young Chris Cooper.

29:47Andy Greenwald:By the way, another potential Jake Spoon would be Anthony Starr. Not American. That's pretty good, though. But then we start getting the Aussies in here, you know? It's exciting. I mean, it would be really meaningful, I think, to us for this to be done right and also to be done expansively. And by that, I mean expensively and correctly. And, you know, not for the long haul, meaning they're going to, like, squeeze 10 seasons out of this, but that they will really tell a full story. I would imagine it's a season per book. I don't think they're going to do Lonesome Dove over the course of multiple seasons.

30:21Do you?

30:23Andy Greenwald:I think my... Interesting, Greenwald. Yeah, my guess is that Lonesome Dove is the name of the series that they are going to make. And in success, it will be longer and include other chapters, so to speak. But I also wonder if there's like... This is the other reason why it would have been interesting. I mean, I don't want Taylor to do this show, but the way that he franchises himself, like there are so many stories here um and certainly like comanche moon which is the weakest of the series just is kind of like this wild tumble of like story spackle over 40 years and in it you get more context on the characters that we've come to know and love but also brand new characters that he was just throwing out there there's there's a um the union general who has his eyelids cut off yeah and then wears sunglasses um but there's also real historical figures like Charles Goodnight, who is a real rancher who was very, very prominent in the West.

31:19Andy Greenwald:And one of the incredible things about the book is when they just cross paths with him. Yeah. And he's incredibly odd. But McMurtry did his research and created an indelible character out of a historical figure. And so if you expanded it and expanded the B story and C story, and then maybe had a companion series, you could do a lot here. I like your casting. Thank you. You're welcome. I think McConaughey and Harrelson. But do you think like, you're just, you're a hundred percent right though, that the list, like the Netflix has lists. They maybe even reached out to people. And do you think the list is even 50 % American?

31:57Andy Greenwald:I don't know. I really don't know. I mean, I don't know whether or not audiences care anymore. You know, if it's like I said, if it's, if they made Gus and Woodrow, Russell Crowe and Guy Pearce, would people be like, I'm furious about this. You can't cast two Australian guys? No. I mean, Australians are the Texans of England. You know what I mean? So I think that would be different. Can't wait to see our inbox. I don't think you can pin us down. No. I just think that we... You know which way we'd vote in Texas. But other than that... Other than that, you don't know. We're scrambling up the perceptions of the parties.

32:37I wanted to talk to you a little bit. we've obviously will continue to monitor this situation. Was there any other like headline news that you wanted to discuss?

32:45Andy Greenwald:Is it like 1230 now? Are we done? No, not at all. We've been doing this. Is there any other headline news? I don't know. You spooked me with a computer. So I closed everything down. I didn't see anything. So there's that. How about that? You didn't want to talk about the Hawaii Five-0 movie? Did you? No, but sometimes you surprise me. Sometimes you say stuff that I didn't know about. Well, by that same token of me saying like Like, Zoe Kazan's allowed to do whatever she wants with Lonesome Dove. Right. I suppose, and the fact that Lonesome Dove is being made at all. Is it really, would it be churlish to be like, who needs Hawaii Five-0?

33:22I think Lonesome Dove probably has a bigger footprint in American culture than Hawaii Five-0.

33:27Andy Greenwald:Well, Hawaii Five-0. They've also done several. But has it been a movie? I guess not. Yeah. There you go. There's more to explore on the big screen. Also, now it's Sean and Amanda's problem. Enjoy. Do you want to talk about the Emmys? Tell me what you're thinking. Because I know you've really spent the last few days poring over the Creative Arts Emmy results. No, but I did read a little bit about them just to get a sense. I mean, you were very right that the Widows Bay train has left the station and there is no brake man. You know, like it's just true Denzel and Chris Pine are the only two people who could stop Widows Bay at this point.

34:01A little unstoppable joke for people.

34:03Andy Greenwald:I got it. Thank you. I want to go through the five or six major categories here. Yep. And say what will win and what should win. Okay. I'm calling up the noms. So why don't we start with comedy series. Okay. Avid Elementary, The Bear, Hacks, Margo's Got Money Troubles, Nobody Wants This, Only Murders in the Building, Shrinking, Widow's Bay. Okay. I think this is a should win, will win. But like the same answer. I think it's Widow's Bay. Yeah. Widow's Bay is going to win. This is a book it, put it in stone. I think it's pretty thrilling. I think it's deserving. I think it is a rare case where it's, I think, you know, at our mid-season check-in, it was maybe both of our number one shows are certainly in the top two or three.

34:53Andy Greenwald:It's one of the most exciting shows of the year and happy to report to all the comedy police out there that I think it's the funniest of all of these nominees. So. I personally thought the bear was funnier, but that's okay. because you like ken paxton you laugh at trauma ken paxton like haha car me again i can't believe it this guy doesn't handle pressure well you're making it sound reasonable because i just don't even know how he talks i've never like been like time to watch some paxton tape i would check in with you because sometimes you're like if i just kept sending you back no No, because sometimes you're like, you know, honestly, it's incredible to be child free.

35:36Andy Greenwald:Like we watch these movies. We go for long walks. I get to have these drinks with my wife, you know, and then but then there's the B side of it. We're like just crushing. Yeah. I'm like, are you worried what's going on in the insurance industry? I'm worried about that. I do. Got to hand it. Trump ethers this guy every time he introduces him. He's like, this guy looks like absolute shit. I hate this guy. He's a fucking dirtbag. Please vote for him. Your next senator, yeah. Okay, so Widow's Bay would win, shall win, should win for comedy. For drama, The Diplomat, The Gilded Age, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, Paradise the Pit, Pluribus Slow Horses, Your Friends and Neighbors.

36:19What do you think should win?

36:22Andy Greenwald:It's a tough one because as has been the case for the last few years, I think that this category is really an assortment of gentlemen's B's and B pluses. Other than honestly, your friends and neighbors and Paradise is, you know, maybe sort of that meme with the three dragon heads and it's the crazy one. Yeah. But I respect it for that. And interestingly, like Shalene Woodley won an Emmy. She did. For her performance on Paradise this season. I would say there are three and I full disclosure I have not watched The Diplomat Season 2 or The Gilded Age seasons any but I think that there are three stronger candidates here that I could get behind I think you can make the case for Night of the Seven Kingdoms because it was so deeply surprising and just so absolutely wonderfully made a rare example of a show especially a first season of a show just hitting its target and communicating it right from jump I I would make a case for Pluribus because it was unlike anything else and engaging in ways that felt unfamiliar since the last time Vince Gilligan was on our TV screens with Better Call Saul.

37:33Andy Greenwald:And then the third one that deserves it is the one that's going to win, which is The Pit. Yep. I think that The Pit will win and I think that Pluribus should win. I have a tendency, I think, to get tired of monarchies or dynasties rather in awards. the Emmys are particularly vulnerable to having a seven-year run of a show you know or a five-year run of a show winning every year kind of no matter what it's no knock against the pits excellent second season I just think that Pluribus is the kind of show that I think should be celebrated yeah and I think actually did some interesting things with tv that I hadn't seen before.

38:12And I'm really, I love that show. And I think it should be celebrated in that regard. But I understand that the pit is going to win.

38:20Andy Greenwald:I think someone has to come and take the pit's crown. And I think it's going to take a really big show to do that. It is. I think it would either take a show that can succeed on the pit's terms, which is making everyone love TV again in a very familiar and old-fashioned way and hitting its release dates and being an ever-present part of our lives, which is incredibly hard to do. Or it's going to have to snatch it from the other side of the aisle and be a no-doubter prestige drama firing on all cylinders, of which we don't have that many anymore. And by that I mean, you know, in the mold of a Mad Men or a Sopranos or a Better Call Saul or maybe in season two in Success, Pluribus.

38:55In anthology. Yeah. Which has become kind of the forgotten category, I think. Because whether it's because if you make a good limited series or anthology series, it tends to then become a continuing drama. We have All Her Fault, The Beast in Me, Beef, DTF St. Louis, and Love Story, John F. Kennedy and Carolyn Bissett.

39:22Andy Greenwald:And by the way, did we said, I imagine you said a moment ago when I was desperately trying to find a list of the nominees, that the awards are Monday night. Yes. Because they're ducking. They're ducking. They're ducking NFL. Yeah, they're ducking Raj. Shameful. Yeah. uh okay so i feel like this is a category where i've sampled most of them i although i did not i did not get on that plane for love story did you i think i would probably say that beef should win i watched a couple of episodes of love story and was not a fan uh i watched a couple of episodes of all her fault was not my jam i liked beast and me i liked beef i i i respect dtfst louis but it wasn't really my favorite.

40:04I think DTF St. Louis is going to win.

40:06Andy Greenwald:Yes. And I am happy for that because I think Steve Conrad should keep making shows. And I want him to have like the award kind of backing. It's an incredible story. I mean, I think Beef is one of my top three shows of the year. I think Beef should win. Really? Yeah. Can I tell you something? Yeah. You're starting to have too many shows to be in your top three. No, I've got three. Furious, Beef, and Widow's Bay. Yeah. Damn, dog. I'm locked in. I'm not making up. But you know, because sometimes you can be like, this is definitely top two. That's what I do with music. That's what I would be like.

40:47Andy Greenwald:Just to get in this attention economy, I would try to grab you and say like, this is definitely the single greatest song of the decade. Sure. Sure. That worked for me for a few years. It did. I mean, it works for everybody, you know? For a little while. It worked for Drake May, you know? Careful. Yeah, I think DTF St. Louis is going to win. I think that's something that we also... The creative arts Emmys kind of showed that there was a tremendous amount of momentum for that show. I think that's a credit to the show, which did connect with people. I think it's a credit to HBO's incredibly impressive marketing and awards team in terms of pushing a narrative, making it...

41:24Andy Greenwald:I mean, the show got good ratings, so I'm not saying it was an uphill climb, but they are very good at doing this when they have something to work with. But separate and apart from the fact that I didn't enjoy watching the series, I think it's a great story because Steve Conrad is someone who has made beloved shows that were criminally or underseen. Yeah. And had the reputation of someone. Two seasons of Patriot. Yeah. And then Perpetual Grace, LTV, and then he made the puppet show also. So Ultra City Smiths. Good for you. Thanks. It's an incredible thing then when you get like, no disrespect to our friends at Amazon Prime Video 10 years ago, but like you get the call of the majors and you just start throwing gas.

42:06Andy Greenwald:Yep. And if you're given the right opportunity and the right marketing and the right casting and the right push, you can connect. I think that's a nice story. It's R.E.M. signing with Warners. You know what I mean? Putting out green. I will. so yeah DTF should win or will win and I think I think Beef should win but I don't feel incredibly strongly about this one actor in a comedy Yahya Abdul-Mateen the second for Wonder Man Steve Carell for Rooster Matthew Reese for Widow's Bay Jason Siegel for shrinking Martin Short for only murders in the building I'm gonna pair this with something else okay which is actor in an anthology Limited or Mew.

42:45Andy Greenwald:I was hoping you'd bring this one up. Riz Ahmed in Bait, Jason Bateman in Black Rabbit, Charlie Hunnam in Monster, The Ed Gein Story, Oscar Isaac in Beef, Matthew Rhys in The Beast in Me. Now, I just got done reading a wonderful back and forth between Katie Rich and Chris Rosen in The Ankler, going over the Creative Arts Emmys, talking about the momentum, making some predictions for the Emmys. So, this was something that I had not really even deeply contemplated until yesterday. Is Matthew Rhys going to win both these awards? I think there's a real chance. Did you watch Bates, the Riz Ahmed show?

43:25A little bit, yes. Did you? He's great. He's always good.

43:28Andy Greenwald:I feel bad that I did not watch that. I think that this is a category where there is a chance that someone like Charlie Hunnam could win for, I mean, award shows, whether they're Oscars or the Emmys, love it when actors play real life people, whether they are popular musicians or monstrous serial killers. There's a path there, I think, for him. I don't, I think Jason Bateman might win for DTF. So I don't think he'll win here. Or was he not nominated for DTF? I guess, would it be this category? Or did David Harbour beat him? He was only nominated for this. Black Rabbit. So are people going to check the box if they like DTF?

44:08Andy Greenwald:I don't know. The more I look at it, the more it seems like the Reese Mentum might be unstoppable. especially because Chris and Katie did point out that this Anthology Limited is a strange historically strange award that sometimes goes against the grain but I I think that things are lining up for it to be like this dude is the most delightful and best actor on television let's give him two awards to the extent that there is a group think like that so I think he will win and should win for Widow's Bay I really liked Jason Bateman in Black Rabbit it yeah i thought it was some of his best work it was off also like offbeat for him with some of his best hair for sure top three jason bateman hair top two well it would be this yeah the uh cotton and dodgeball great call great call and um the hogan family yeah when it was pure yeah that original that original cut um so are we saying matt reese would should win would will look i i don't want to say anything against him i think one of the things that's been really fun just as a fan of him for years since the americans and as someone both of us who have been in the room with him when he's come on the podcast genuinely one of the most delightful people we've ever hung out with can i give you a bunch of money yeah and and his reputation deserved in the industry has been like this is guys the real deal he can do comedy he can do drama he can do anything but that i never got the sense that he was recognized like by the general public as the superstar that he is and that i think widow's bay despite being limited by the viewers on apple has changed the narrative about that and i think people will vote for him just to get him on stage again he's navigating modern television better than any actor i can think of it's a good prompt i don't That's not even like a give me somebody who does it better.

46:02I just mean like the choices he's making, the variety of roles he gets to play. Yeah. And the way he can like move from sort of prestigy but pulpy crime show to a quirky comic horror to, you know.

46:21Andy Greenwald:Isn't he the lead in Presumed Innocent Season 2 also? I think you might be right. Or are you joking? I'm not joking. Yeah, I think you might be right. he seems to have definitely mastered his own schedule i will say that uh actress in a comedy quinta brunson for abbott uh iowa de berry for the bear l fanning for margo's got money troubles lisa kudrow for the comeback gene smart for hacks this one feels the gene this is where hacks is gonna get its awards i think so um award i the only other one that i would i could see happening is Elle Fanning because clearly Emmy voters liked Margot's Got Money Troubles.

47:01Andy Greenwald:And... I think she's great in it. Yeah. I don't think you can... I don't think you could bet against the person who has won it every year that she's been nominated. I have an outside... I don't think this is going to happen, but I have an outside IO bet. Do you? If I was going to... If we were betting this... Is this what Bill and Sal were talking about when they said teasers are back? Is that what this means? because I didn't know. I thought she was fantastic. And so funny. Hilarious. Right? You laughed. You laughed. You laughed. You laughed. You laughed and being like, she's worried about her dad.

47:40Andy Greenwald:Actor. I think she's awesome, but I think the combination. Jean Smart will win. Who should win? Elle Fanning? Well, I would say, I mean, look, the IO argument is a good one to make because over the course of this series, she has shown an incredibly broad skill set. I mean, you're joking. It is weird to say like that was a comic performance. No, exactly. But it is a award-worthy performance over five seasons. But I think the general turn, not just in my opinion of the last season, but I think the awards voting membership turn. And by the way, this would be for the fourth season. So all this can happen again next year.

48:15Andy Greenwald:Oh, okay. So you're not going to be getting, the Bears are going to be nominated again next year, most likely in some of these categories, if not all of them. And so if there's any like legacy last time up bounce, it would come next year. Quinta has won this award, right? I believe she did in between the Jean Smarts or I just remember her winning for the show. She won Outstanding Lead Actress in a Comedy in 2022. Let Maine Decide, you know what I mean? All right. This is when you're - Let the voters decide. Actor in a drama, Sterling K. Brown in Paradise, Gary Oldman in Slow Horses, Mark Ruffalo in Task, Rufus Sewell in The Diplomat, Noah Wiley in The Pit.

48:49Noah Wiley's going to win this. Yep. You want to have a Wiley-Ruffalo conversation? You want to have a Wiley-Sterling Brown conversation?

48:57Andy Greenwald:This is such an interesting category because the five actors nominated are all doing five distinct things. Yeah. I don't think... There's very little overlap in terms of what they're being asked. Dr. Robbie certainly farts less than Jackson Lamb. That is true. Well, we don't know that because let's do it. You could do an investigation because I can't imagine you're going into the pit like nostrils open. You know what I mean? There's probably a lot of sense in the emergency room. And a lot of people to blame it on. Yeah. You can really spread the blame around in there. Gary Oldman's performance on Slow Horses is iconic, incredible, consistent, certainly worthy of celebration.

49:37Andy Greenwald:But because he does the same exact thing every year for potentially 10 straight years, I don't know when voters would be motivated to reward him for it up against flashier new things every fall. I don't watch The Diplomat. I like Rufus Sewell, but I don't think he's considered to be a main threat in this category. But Sterling Brown is giving a very old school TV star. He's got to run. He's got to shoot. He's got to emote. He's got to carry a baby across an apocalyptic America. He's doing Jack Bauer and Jack from Lost at the same time. That's good. The two Jacks. Oh, the two Jakes was the giant.

50:18While he's going to win, I think Ruffalo should win.

50:20Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I do too. Although the interesting thing here is Wiley is giving a, you know, an incredibly charismatic measured performance across what has already been 30 hours of television, which is incomprehensible in competition with shows that are like six episodes every two years. the other difference is just like a marathoner versus a sprinter because when ruffalo gave this incredibly searing brilliant performance that he gives in task which i agree with you he should win for he left it all in the field because i know there have been discussions about making a second season but that was not assured so the plot line he was given was a full arc still mad about task not being nominated for drama it's crazy it's crazy but but in a way but in a weird way his performance should be measured against a miniseries category.

51:12Andy Greenwald:Because that's kind of the intensity beginning, middle, and end that he gave. Actress in a drama. Carrie Coon for The Gilded Age, Chase Infinity for The Testaments, Carrie Russell for The Diplomat, Ray Seahorn for Pluribus, Zendaya for Euphoria. That's a cool category. I think Zendaya should win. I think Carrie Russell will win. Interesting. I think Zendaya is definitely deserving of winning for her performance being the pace car for a truly insane season of television. Sort of in this, it's like the pace car driving in front of like a massive car accident. No, she is delivering like solid, remarkable, charismatic performance like an elite luxury vehicle.

52:00Andy Greenwald:And then behind her is the Fury Road menagerie. Yeah. She's in Audrey Hepburn with the top down. Yes. And then behind her is Furiosa. Genuinely. I think that, first of all, I love a narrative. I think Keri Russell, who is an incredible actress and still, I think, underrated, winning while her husband wins one, if not two awards, is incredibly sweet. They're a lovely couple in real life and on screen, and they deserve success, happiness, and recognition. But I think Ray Sehorne should win. I think I think she's owed because I don't even think she was nominated for Better Call Saul Was she not? I think she was maybe nominated for the final season which was celebrated at the time but even that was overdue the show does not work without her it's written for her what she did over the course of one season is maybe fading slightly in our memory because it was it was a brief period of time it was only a couple weeks basically in the end of the year but it was astonishingly good let's do actress anthology limited or movie to end this up Claire Danes and the Beast of Me Sally Field in Remarkably Bright Creatures what did you think about Remarkably Bright Creatures?

53:11I don't understand what distinguishes this from any other Netflix movie so the idea that this was made for television in some way but was on Netflix I don't understand so then like why isn't Matt Damon in Rip the Rip eligible for best actor You know what I mean?

53:29Andy Greenwald:Is he not? It's a great question. I mean, he wasn't nominated, but... I guess I had... Honestly, this whole debate hadn't occurred to me until I saw Sally Field being nominated for Remarkably Bright Creatures. She has that effect on people. Carrie Mulligan for Beef, Sarah Pidgeon for Love Story, Sarah Snook for All Her Fault. I don't have a ton of feeling about this one. I suppose this makes it a poor last category for us to do. I think Sarah Pidgeon's gonna win. I do too. I have feelings about this. Award shows love to anoint a star. And she was the talking point coming out of that series, which did gangbusters ratings.

54:05I guess I would say Carrie Mulligan. The two performances that I like the most here are Carrie Mulligan and Claire Dance. And I think Carrie Mulligan had a little bit more scope to it.

54:15Andy Greenwald:I didn't watch all her fault. I can't imagine Sarah Snook being anything less than excellent. I watched two or three episodes of that. And then my wife informed me of what happened at the end. just between us was it in fact all it's okay nobody's listening it always is it always is yeah I love Carrie Mulligan's performance in Beef and I would love to see her win I would say like for The Beast in Me which I did not finish I Claire Danes was was doing it but that was not my favorite Claire Danes performance I weirdly like this Claire Danes performance because she has a normal job rich writer for The New Yorker super normal job.

54:57Andy Greenwald:Do you want to talk about the second season of The Paper? I do. I do. I really do. So this came out on, this is one of those weird, like, it's on NBC once a week, but I believe the entire season is on Peacock. Today, right? Yeah. Is it dropping today? Oh, no, yeah, last night. Last night. I had high hopes for this because I think that this is a classic sitcom situation where I think they might need a season to figure out some of the kinks and then they get to the second season. They're like, we know who can do what on this show and we know where we want to take it. And obviously it's something NBC believes in to the extent that it came back for a second season.

55:36You know, I, how do I say this? Take your time. I don't know whether or not how much I want to like it is impacting how much I like it, if that makes sense.

55:51Andy Greenwald:because of the expectations you carry into it or the fact that you want to show them this is a show that like i routinely like usually like to have one of these in rotation yes you know i am not i like having superstore on in the background i don't mind you know like i like ending my night if if it's been a stressful day with a nice like modern family how i met your mother adults you know kind of show in a newport light and a newport light call it a tuesday uh i think i i but i'm watching this show with like way more like is this working is this not working rather than just letting it happen and letting it be successful on its own terms i watched the first two episodes of this season as you instructed me the second episode definitely gave me like a lot more like oh okay like this this show can go a lot of different places and i think the characters are interesting and the jokes are getting more knowing of like what different performers can do.

56:45What did you think of the episodes that you've seen from this new season?

56:50Andy Greenwald:I'm aligned with you in that I liked the first season fine and was also more than willing to give it a chance to find its footing. I think one of the real challenges of this type of show, and by this type of show, we mean a hopefully long-running ensemble comedy, is that the choices you make at the beginning in terms of casting and where you place the characters on the game board and then let them go, where you begin them is not often where you want them to end up. And so there's just growing pains. And we love and celebrate Parks and Rec. And then you go back and you realize that Adam Scott and Rob Lowe didn't join until, I believe, the third season.

57:22Andy Greenwald:So it takes these things, these things take time. And it's important to try to give some grace if the general vibes are promising. And season one was promising enough to overcome, I think, a lot of the skepticism of this many years later, we're doing a direct spinoff of one of the most successful broadcast comedies of all time. I have I watched the first one and I thought of the season and I was like okay I like there's some funny things bubbling up here the idea that someone in the company has died that no one knows who actually was a black ops meth cook from the Bogner group yeah it's pretty rich comedic terrain it's a huge storyline on Linus I can imagine it's a crossover the second episode was the one where at least for the first half of it I was like okay, I see.

58:11Andy Greenwald:They're starting to cook now. They're starting to understand certain pairings work better with each other, writing towards those pairings, writing, understanding the characters and the performers that they're writing to. And then the show did something that possibly cost me my fandom. And what I mean is it tried to, there's a history, a recent history of sitcoms overcoming what we perceive of, because we know too much about TV shows, as problems by steering right into them. Sure. The example I would give is, will they or won't they couples? Let's just have them do it and then move on. You know, not stretch it out over season after season after season like a la Sam and Diane.

58:50You're talking about Daniel Radcliffe and Megan Thee Stallion and Reggie Dinkins, right?

58:54Andy Greenwald:I wish we were talking more about that. That is my favorite comedy of the year, bar none. One of the top three shows easily of 2026. No hesitation in saying that. Peacock division. So this show, you know, for example, with Ned and Merritt ran right at that. Yeah. The where it trips up, I think, is the second episode really runs at the documentary conceit in a way that I found totally exhausting and vibe-killing. So to make clear what I mean, the idea of the single cam documentary setup, like Modern Family did that, the original Office did it, the American Office famously did it, Parks did it. Parks did it and never once said a documentary crew is following us.

59:37Andy Greenwald:We just understand the visual language. The Christopher Guest movies did that as well. And they're doing straight to camera interviews. They do straight to straight to camera. But yes, but they don't say it's a documentary crew. The office announced the conceit and then pretty much ignored it until they ran out of story. And then they tried to make a cameraman an emotional poochie in the Jim and Pam relationship when they completely ran out of other stuff to do. And I was very angry about that in my Grantland days. and I remain quite angry about that. I feel like Greg Daniels and the people making the show are like, we need to deal with that elephant in the room early because otherwise, what are we doing?

1:00:13And so they hinted at some things

1:00:15Andy Greenwald:in the first season, like Oscar being like, I'm not doing this again. I won't sign the release. How are they getting the private moments or the romantic moments? In the second episode of the season, Ned and Mare, who are trying to keep their burgeoning relationship secret, go on a weekend outing and they're trying to keep what's going on secret from the office. And there's some hijinks because then they get a work call. They're trying to be weekend Ned and weekend Mary. Yeah, fine. A great setup, comedy, tension, all that. But the camera conceit requires the show to devote real airtime and also writer's room real estate to a camera crew jumping in a follow car and then hiring a delivery robot to spy on them while they are having sex in a hotel room.

1:00:57Andy Greenwald:The juice is not worth the squeeze. We know how to watch television shows at this point. point and the amount of effort being put into the conceit of it being a documentary that we don't care about is totally off-putting and silly to me and breaks up the momentum that the show is starting to form are you with me on this you're not as militant as i'm very curious to know so michael coleman also works on this show and he's you know greg daniels is he co-created with greg daniels who who and i i think it's still involved i mean my my point is that michael coleman comes from nathan for you yes uh has a background in nathan for you and a background and Conan, but like, I wonder whether there is a sly kind of societal commentary going on here.

1:01:39Yeah. The first episode also features a lot of security camera footage.

1:01:42Andy Greenwald:Yes. You would wonder if you were like actually assembling a documentary about a paper company, like why do you need to have like all this surreptitious footage of people having personal meltdowns or personal romantic interludes? And I wonder whether it's supposed to be like a commentary on our surveillance state, but be like a degree of which it's like messing with the conceit of like, we just take it face value that these characters are being observed. I appreciate the point of view. And I think that made for some exciting conversation when Greg Daniels was looking for a collaborator to create the show.

1:02:17Andy Greenwald:But at a certain point, you've got to make a comedy that works on its own merits. And I also feel, I don't mean, I'm not concerned trolling. I like the show. I want it to succeed. But there's some things here that are slightly concerning. And one is that like the lesson from The Office that Greg Daniels was celebrated for and should be celebrated for was that how to take it from the very spiky, very brief British show, which I think had what, eight episodes total or something like that, including the Christmas specials. I'm sure that number is slightly off, but it was low. It was very funny, but also had like a real layer of melancholy to it.

1:02:49And I think in The Office US, it was more just like your work family can be your real family.

1:02:55Andy Greenwald:Yes, and it was like we feel in this country, like spend more time at work. Why not? But also that Michael Scott was ultimately lovable and decent despite being foolish. That was the tweak that worked. The other brilliant conceit was, even though there were only four or five cast members listed in the opening credits, famously in the office, they cast every background character with people they liked, people they fell in love with in the casting process, people they saw hope for, writers for the show like Mindy Kaling. Yeah. and the ensemble developed naturally from what they were seeing on the screen and you can tell that they tried to run that back.

1:03:30Andy Greenwald:There's nothing wrong with that but what you end up with with the paper, on the poster for season two, there are 11 people. That is a very, very big ensemble even before you get to the other characters who aren't even on it like Alan Havy, the old comedian who's on Mad Men who plays the boss or Nancy Lenihan who was great on Widow's Bay. It's a really, really, really big ensemble. Yeah. And some of them are working. I'm just, you know what? I can't stop smiling because I'm imagining an undecided voter in Texas. Thinking about which show to vote for. Cracking a USA Today and there's a full page ad for the paper season two.

1:04:04He's like, that's simply too many people on the poster.

1:04:07Andy Greenwald:I think it is too many people on the poster. That's why Tal Rico will not get my one. I think common sense Americans can agree on that. I'm not trying to tell you who can be on your sports teams. I'm just saying it's too many people in a broadcast sitcom poster. it's an abundance mentality that frankly we can't afford. It's the Cheesecake Factory menu, yeah. It's building an arch when people are struggling. You know what I mean? Sure. Now I'm appealing to the purple voter. But what I mean is, like Alex Edelman, a very funny, accomplished comedian and writer who writes for the show, is on screen as a character who so far, because of the lack of screen time, his personality is kind of confused baby.

1:04:46Andy Greenwald:There's room for that character to grow, but he's not popping yet. Yes. Characters. But it's not that he's not popping. It's the problem. It's that others are like Eric Rahill as Travis is hilarious. And the rhythm is fantastic. And I the show has never made me laugh harder than in the second episode when someone makes a stray comment and it just pans to him and he just sings the stained song. More of that, please. If I could film that on my phone like that was great stuff. I also think that like Chelsea Fry is fantastic as mayor. So there are working pieces here. But then over on Mars, you've got Sabrina Impaciatore as Esmeralda, who they like, who is an incredibly odd and unique comic energy, and who does not fit on this show.

1:05:33Andy Greenwald:And they have not figured out how to account for that energy yet, other than recently they're pairing her with Tim Key, who's a brilliant British comedian, who they also hired. So I just get the sense that they walked into the store with a very big budget, bought everything and everyone they liked, and now they're having to figure it out in real time. It is not a bad problem to have, but it is yet to translate. Not unlike adults. I don't think 10 episodes is enough per season. And I think that this is a genre and a style of television making that needs 10 hours, not 10 episodes. You know what I mean?

1:06:07I think it needs a longer runway to work stuff out per season. I understand that there are economic headwinds and also perhaps audience trends that make that impossible. but I'm going to continue to watch this because I really... We like shows like this. I like shows like this.

1:06:22Andy Greenwald:I think that's why I'm more impassioned about it because I think they have every chance to succeed now good. But because, like you said, the run times are... The season orders are shorter. Every episode feels more important than maybe it ought to. And the... So the criticism is increased. I think there's just some... My worry is that there's just some, like, original sins that you can't solve for. Yeah. And one of them is that Donald Gleeson's character as the star doesn't work, doesn't fully make sense. In the first season, he's sort of, they're trying to find that sweet spot between, like they did with Leslie Knope, where it's like, in the first episode, everyone hates him because he's annoying and extreme.

1:07:02Andy Greenwald:And then they're like, but they also secretly love him because he works harder than everyone else. But also he's kind of a snaky weirdo and they can't decide where to land on that. And so then the axis spins towards your beloved Esmeralda. and I'm just trying to tar you with like a foreign brush for the voters. Why couldn't Diane Lane have gotten that part? Well, I don't know if I want to make Ken Paxton like a big character on this show. I'm just going to say that. Do you think that you're going to get a call later today and Bill's going to be like, we need Paxton on rewatchable? And you'll be like, hopefully Bill Paxton?

1:07:36Andy Greenwald:Because that is probably a better lane for you. And he's going to be like, no. Would the movie be improved with Senate candidate Ken Paxton. I also don't think that my Ken Paxton is translating to pure audio. Oh, do you think because people, so are you encouraging people to fire up the YouTube here to see the face that goes with it? Maybe, maybe. But I also don't want to offend anyone if they're like, you know, like. Your body changes when you do it. It's pretty impressive. I do think everyone should watch. Something, I don't know. Like Sacha Baron Cohen. I just didn't have it in the part. Can we get the after dark lights?

1:08:08Andy Greenwald:Oh yeah, yeah. We got to do this before we get out of here. I almost spent all my remaining gasoline on the paper. I'm a fool. I'm a fool. This is the number one topic on Andy's mind. I know that this has been covered on some of our NFL podcasts, specifically fantasy. Yeah. But as a global citizen of the world and a global traveler. Thank you. Thank you. I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about the two wolves of the NFL, Sean McVay and Kyle McShanahan, who had two separate approaches to trans-Pacific travel. The San Francisco 49ers and the Los Angeles Rams, I believe, play today in Australia.

1:08:49Andy Greenwald:They do. Although I suppose it is tomorrow in Australia. It's 10 a.m. tomorrow in Australia. The San Francisco 49ers chose to fly a week early and attempt to acclimate to Australia time. Yes. The Los Angeles Rams. I believe they booked their flight on Oceanic Flight 815, L.A. to Sydney. So we have Miles Garrett in seat 8, Aaron Donald in seat 14. The MVPs are either the front or the tailies. Yeah. I've been fascinated by this story. Say what they did. The Rams chose to basically go in and out. They were like, we're flying in, playing a football game, and then flying out. Yes. the idea being the rams will never acclimate and when they get back to california like the jet lag situation now there are no two men that i trust more deeply with uh the wonders and the mysteries of the human body than sean mcveigh and kyle shanahan certainly kyle shanahan has proven himself to be the hippocrates of our time yes you know just i'm just like a born healer he has definitely convinced the world that it is not his insane training methods but in fact an electrical substation that makes all of his players muscles explode in their own body yes uh i think that this is the only story i care about to test this with us a b a b with us yes i would give you first pick would you rather have a week to get ready or in and out basically spending 50 hours on a flight within 72 hours.

1:10:24Andy Greenwald:What are you asking? What do you think? Whenever I had to be at work in London on Monday, I would be like, can I leave on the Wednesday before? Sincerely, though, I would leave on Friday. See, but I would do that for fun. I don't know. What do you think? Do you think that there's any truth to the idea if you just fly through it? Right. Jet lag never happens. Sure. Sure. I mean, that sounds like a wonderful. Because I don't think that's true. No, I don't think it's true. I think weird things happen to us up there. Yes. And I know that I read something about like the Airbus that the Rams were taking.

1:11:01Yes. And it's all lie flat compartments. And there's something specifically about it where they're like, it's going to be very quiet on the flight.

1:11:09Andy Greenwald:Yes. But do you know why else it's going to be quiet? They rented or they procured these like luxury double decker all lie flat to to increase the comfort. and also I would imagine to help players sleep during normal night hours. They also booked these planes that have no Wi-Fi. Now, for you and I, we've got our 600-page books. We have our thoughts. That's fine. But I think young men generally like to— You don't think Ty Simpson wants to raw dog all the way to Australia? I do not think it is good for their circadian rhythms or their life rhythms to be disconnected from the lifeblood of their young selves.

1:11:48Andy Greenwald:So I worry about that too. The follow-up question. I could talk about this for an hour. I think this is so interesting. Like what entertainment was preloaded onto the flight? I think those guys would all be encouraged to get things onto their iPads. Do you know what I mean? And I think there will be a contingent of people who are like, let's play some games of chance to pass the time. But do you think that, who's the guy that we met? Kobe Turner? Is that the guy's name? Remember when we did Meanest Podcast and we were there with us? Oh, yeah, he was also, yeah. Remember the LA Rams? Like, what if he forgot his iPad?

1:12:20Andy Greenwald:Or what if he was focused on, like, body health and, like, he didn't download anything and he gets on the plane and the only thing on the screen is, like, Irma Vep on HBO, like, all nine episodes. I'm not saying he wouldn't like it. Are you flying this plane? Yeah. I did book the entertainment system. I think it is so, and these are younger men, they are more, you know, they can, they're more resilient than we are. And they are obviously devoted to the science of themselves and probably know what they need in a way that I'm still hoping to achieve before it's curtains. But in no world does it make sense to me to just say, okay, okay, men, jet lag does not exist.

1:12:58Andy Greenwald:We are playing on the other side of the fucking planet at 10 in the morning, two days from now, but it'll be your tomorrow. That is so disrespectful and crazy and very on brand, I think, with McVeigh's just like reality warping identity as a head coach. Sure. Yeah. It's wild to me because we have, this is not meant as a brag. This is meant just like we have done the transit. We've done, that flight is 14 hours, I think. To Australia? Yeah. Isn't it like 18? 14 to 18, something like that. Depends how fast Sean McVay is driving the plane because you know he is. The flight that we have done and that I was doing regularly for the last two years is 11 hours.

1:13:39Andy Greenwald:and I have never felt more like the ooze from Ghostbusters 2 than that subsequent 24-hour period I see I think I fixed it I still think you always do you're at foils you're having no I have the 10 p.m. flight gets in at 4 p.m. the next day it's already dark it's I go dark to dark I just straight bane it like i i'm straight bored in the darkness and then i hold out on alcohol for like 10 minutes four hours sure and then as soon as it hits your lips i know they say don't drink on no it really fixes you for about 80 minutes i still maintain that in 24 i would have been fine it was just that i got 800 text messages about trump winning again because i flew on election night yes and i woke up at three in the morning and was like, fuck.

1:14:32Andy Greenwald:Yeah. What does this mean for getting back? What does this mean for my Calci futures? I, luckily I was waiting for you with my cheery disposition. Yes, we then recorded the possibly worst episode of The Watch ever the next day. It's fair. I. But otherwise I've not had a bad jet lag trip in a while. The jet lag thing for me isn't what I'm, what I'm trying to, what I'm trying to articulate is that I figured it out. Like I know what to do the night before. I know which flight to take. I can sleep on the plane. I get there. I have my routine. I even know what I like to do the next day. And I sleep that night.

1:15:06Andy Greenwald:Like when you get there and you basically just have to make it to bedtime, it is okay. It's just that the next day I wake up thinking I'm fine, thinking I could go four quarters, you know, of a professional football, or at least my version of it, which is taking a bus to a flower market in Hackney. But inevitably that goodwill and good intention hits a brick wall at like 10 a.m. or even 11 or 12 when I perhaps invited you guys to join me for lunch. And then the food in front of us begins to move of its own accord. And the thought of ever ingesting anything again seems like absolute poison. So I feel like what you wanted to do is talk more about your personal experiences and not.

1:15:45Andy Greenwald:I would love to talk about my experiences. And by the way, no, Rochelle Canteen does a lovely Sunday lunch. And I apologize for what my behavior there last time. What I'm trying to say is you cannot mind game your way past physical circadian reality. And they're going to be super fucked up. I'd also be scared if I was the Niners. Yeah. Because everything I'm seeing from them is it's way nicer here. Like Christian McCaffrey is like, I've never tasted coffee before like this. And what if those guys are like, I don't want to leave. I mean, you really run that risk with the 49ers. Yeah. It is basically a furlough.

1:16:23Eight of them are going to blow out their Achilles anyway, so they're just going to be like, I guess we live in Melbourne now.

1:16:28Andy Greenwald:We're just going to rehab here, so we're a day ahead of the American healthcare system. I find this so interesting, and I guess we'll see what happens on the field. We shall. That'll be a big topic for us on Tuesday when we're back, so I think the plan is, at least now, we'll be back on Tuesday morning because we wanted to have the Emmys to talk about and we'll also have lanterns. I hope everyone has a great weekend in Los Angeles. Please stay cool. It has been very unpleasant. It's awful. And thanks to Kai, Kaya, and Sarah. We'll be back on Tuesday.