‘Euphoria’ Season 3, Episode 4 and ‘Star Wars’ Streaming Numbers. Plus, Pitching Literary Classics as TV Shows.

22:05Andy Greenwald:That's what we do on the show. We give voice to the voiceful. The people who have the loudest voices. We give voice to the guy who runs the Annenberg Center. but you know that is the that is the perfect example of what we're talking about where like a really inventive filmmaker a really interesting actor a really cool idea but would obviously be playing with like completely different tonal ideas than most Star Wars stuff right now and they're like we're not making that bet dude one thing that we say when we talk about TV is we constantly hold up HBO and FX as being unique unicorns in terms of having an entrenched development power structure that has been working together and developing things for a long time.

22:51Andy Greenwald:And one thing that is, I think, under-discussed when we talk about the last five years of Star Wars is the tumult of who's left holding the bag. Because this spans a time, not only of a massive industry upheaval and industry repositioning in terms of where you're pouring the content money, TV, streaming, oh no, we got it back to movies, but it's the Iger-Chapek-Iger era. and the Iger era 2.0 contained within it, one, the constant sense that Kathy Kennedy was going to be retiring at some point and stepping down and what the succession plan within her company was. But then also Iger stepping down, who was taking over his role and what that person would feel about it.

23:31Andy Greenwald:So I do think that when you're talking about such a valuable property and the amount of time it takes to develop, produce, and release a film, you need five years of continuity to decide on a plan and then to be able to stick with the plan. The worst case scenario would have been projects that Iger or God forbid Chapek had approved or that Cathy had approved. And then the incoming leadership structure is like, actually, we think this is kind of whack. And then pull the plug on. I think there was a cycle of that happening. I'm not saying I'm more optimistic about the next five years, but theoretically there will be consistency.

24:06I just wonder whether or not, say, Mandalorian and Grogu does fine, but winds up being maybe slightly better performing than Solo, perhaps just because it doesn't have the cynicism around an Alden Ehrenreich-type figure in it and doesn't have the chaos of switching directors mid-shoot. So let's say it does okay, and then next year, just off of Project Hail Mary vibes alone, Starfighter does pretty well, right?

24:32Andy Greenwald:It very well may. I mean, also, let's throw this out there. What if it's good? Sure. I mean, it's entirely possible. But what I wonder is like if you guys, if there isn't like a new story to tell on a franchise level where you're like, it's going to take multiple films to complete the arc of what we're trying to do here. And we've introduced these new characters that are going to change over the course of these movies. Like does Star Wars essentially then become a very expensive modern version of things like Lord of the Flies? where everybody just broadly, even if you haven't read it, probably knows it's kids marooned on an island.

25:10It's an allegory for society. One of them is named Piggy and he has glasses, right? Like I bet most people could probably dial that up even if they don't remember William Golding's novel, you know, line for line. Right. What stories that we sort of hold as central, like, of course, well, this is canonical. We'll always have Star Wars. You sound like my dad. are going to in 20 years look like East of Eden or E.M. Forster or what have you. Do you see what I'm saying?

25:40Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I think it's very possible. I think what's interesting though is that for the, so you suggested we do an exercise where we look at the, whose list is it? It's the modern libraries. The MLA list of like the hundred greatest novels and then like thought about ones that were ripe for adaptation. But in so doing, I was like, at no point did I look at the potential of adapting these books as an opportunity to like recreate them in amber as they were like what they are, you look at it and it'll be fun to go into the list and think about it. And I was like, which of these is ripe for some relevance?

26:12Andy Greenwald:Which of these is ripe for reimagining or some sort of modern take on it? Because otherwise, why would you do it? Right. You know, and so that I mean, that's ongoing. Like there's a there's a it's highly controversial in my household because the 2005 version is my daughter's favorite film. But Netflix has a Pride and Prejudice adaptation coming out next year. Jack Loudon, right? Jack Loudon and Emma Corrin and Olivia Colman. So my question is, why? Sure. Not in a negative way, but show me why. I'm curious why. But when you see, especially coming out of England, the maintenance, the classics maintenance that they do over there, where they're like, it's been 10 years, it's time for this.

26:58Now, funnily enough, I went through a bunch of these books. So this is the Modern Library's list of the top 100 novels of the 20th century.

27:07Andy Greenwald:And it's a pretty fairly stodgy list, I would say. Very, very much so. And so we're not in the 21st century. We're not talking about No Country for Old Men and stuff like that. We're also not looking at the 20th century with a particularly non-Herald Bloom 21st century view. There are a couple wild cards in there. Very few. But very few. And the sheer number of books that are about a guy finding himself in Africa was shocking. Like genuinely, like I didn't even know. I've read a bunch of these books, not even as a brag, but I didn't know even Saul Bellow was like, what if this middle-aged man found himself in darkest Africa?

27:42Andy Greenwald:And they treated him as a prophet. Yeah, like a lot of that. Yeah. But, you know, I was looking at this list and we'll put the list itself in the show notes. I can't even tell if I'm connecting the dots between the modern library 20th century novels and Star Wars. I think you got big brain from this weekend and I love it. You're on this wave with me, though. Yeah, this is like doing a podcast with the fourth square and the Vince McMahon meme. You know what? It'll be funny if in 20 years you and I are doing this podcast at age 68 and we're like, what are some Star Wars stories that could use a TV adaptation?

28:19Is that how you're going to talk? Yes. Got it. Ever since a guy fell on me at a basement show at age 58. Going through this list, some of these titles are so, I don't know, memorable. They're so present in my mind, even if I haven't even read them. Yeah. That in my head, I was like, there has to have been seven or eight Lord of the Flies adaptations. Right. There's four on screen. Okay. There's a 60s movie. There is a foreign film. there's the 1990 movie which is sort of in my mind the Balthazar Getty one the one that I know of and now there is this Jack Thorne adaptation which by the way is getting like wonderful reviews and sounds excellent it just also sounds like it's very dutifully like

29:07Andy Greenwald:captures what's on the page not to add too much to what may already be a creaky bit before getting into it but I think that the more relevant comp in this is something else that I worked on which is Harry Potter which is people are like I'll explain it to you it's about a wizard Are you leaning in or out? I'm literally at 50%. I know. What if I told you who was a special little fellow? I'm the undecided voter. Janet Mills, Graham Plattner. You're the one. Many people, many people, but this is not a straw man argument, are like, why? Because the movies already exist. And I think there are many reasons for it and hopefully the show will speak for itself.

29:45Andy Greenwald:But that is more in the line of there isn't going to be a lot of iterating within the world or within the IP or within the space because the IP is very tightly controlled. So is it more along the lines of every 20 to 25 years we get a new Howard's End or we get a new Sense and Sensibility? Well, what if every 15 years we get a new Hope? It's beautifully done. No, but I'm saying... Maybe if that's what you guys want, if we all just want Luke and Leia, let's just get two new cool people to play them. Yeah. And use new effects that we have. Who you got? Well, I'm not going to get into that game right now because I spent way too much time casting Henry James novels.

30:23Okay, sure. All right. So Andy and I gave each other this little project to... I didn't do a lot of casting. I did a lot of show running. But okay. I did some casting. Hot out of the door, I have my cast. But then...

30:36Andy Greenwald:Hot out the door. Classic baker's talk. Go on. I feel like I'm having a mild stroke because I keep replacing words in cliches. You're like, I, healthy living, brother. No ill effects from the hardcore show. Okay, I'll go first with an idea. So, like I said, we are taking from the modern library's top 100 books of the 20th century. And we're thinking about what of these old titles could use a fresh coat of paint. My number one draft pick here is Henry James' The Ambassadors. Look at you. By the way, we are covering the new episode of Euphoria in this pod. and we are leading with Chris's imaginary adaptation of Henry James, the Ambassadors.

31:18Andy Greenwald:So this SEO shit, don't put it on me anymore. Show run by a man who has never run a show. Great. Named Noah Baumbach. Wow. This is a novel about a guy who, a widower, I believe. I can't remember if he's a widower or not, Lambert. I read it in college. Should we step down? No, I don't want to because, yeah, he's a middle-aged widower and his new fiance who's pretty paid is like, you got to go to Europe and find my ne 'er-do-well son. So Lambert, the sort of main character, he's in his late 50s. This ne 'er-do-well son is in his late 20s. And she's like, you got to go to Europe. This is like 1903.

31:59Find my son, bring him back. He's got to start working at the family factory to running the family factory or whatever. He's got to inherit his family kind of mantle here. So, you know, this American goes off to Europe and finds this young man. And instead of finding a ne 'er-do-well, finds a guy who's blossoming. And then this man himself, the widower, Lambert, blossoms himself and learns a lot about himself as he discovers, you know, new things about the old world.

32:31Andy Greenwald:Is this in any way similar to when I started working at SPIN in 1999 and you were still in Boston and you called me and you were like, how is it? And I'm like, it's pretty cool, man. And then you showed up. And you were like, which one of us is the ne 'er-do-well younger son in this case? So I have Noah Baumbach making a series about these people. And I have it set in contemporary times. Because I think there's something really interesting to be done with America's perhaps diminished role in the world. Perhaps diminished, yeah. to talk about Americans abroad and what that means in 2020 whatever, whenever you want to set it.

33:12This 58-year-old man, I'm mixed on this because I have an easy one, which is Billy Crudup, who's done Noah Baumbach work before, has led or appeared in several big series before. But Billy Crudupal, it's like if you're asking somebody to go from being straight-laced to free. Billy Crudup, we know he can be free. There's no surprise there. So what about if Dr. Robbie's sabbatical just lasts a little longer?

33:41Andy Greenwald:See, I was wondering where the juice was coming from. Where's Noah Wiley? Like, let's get Dr. Robbie on the bike to Europe. This is good. He would drown. And when he goes over there, he finds this young man and the young man should be played by, by the way, his name's Chad. He should be played by Chris Briney. from somewhere I turn pretty. Just appeared in Hacks recently, is obviously trying to break out of Teen Dream stuff. So let's put him in a Noah Baumbach. You had me. I'm doing the Jonas era now, because here's the thing. When you started with this, I was leaning out. No offense. Yeah. But I was trying to get in the mindset of a contemporary buyer in this town.

34:24Andy Greenwald:Sure. And I was nodding off. I can't say there's a lot of heat for the Baumbach vision, right now in terms of like well-heeled agents though. Well, okay, but CAA is not saying, Noah, you've been mismanaged all this time. What you need to do is a Henry James adaptation. I think UTA could have managed that for him just fine. But when you start populating it with contemporary people that have a fan base, people who are wanting to see their next step, this is why it's going to work. One of the joys of this cast of characters is you've got a guy in late middle age, you've got a young man, entering real adulthood.

35:02That's played by Chris Briney. And then they're both equally sort of smitten with this late 30s French woman, Madame Vionette. And in this adaptation, she's played by Lea Seydoux. Oh, okay.

35:21Andy Greenwald:And now are you taking that meeting yourself? No, no. Lea, bienvenue. I'd like to speak to you about some... Probably you, Henry James? I'd like to speak to you about some opportunities. So that's my pitch. Have you heard Basement? I believe is the way you say the band's name. That's my pitch for the ambassadors. Yeah. How many episodes? Who are you trying to sell it to? I mean, I'd love it to be six. And I do wonder whether or not Apple TV is the only one who'd be like, hmm. Although they actually like ongoing series more than limited. What's the second season? They find another younger ne 'er-do-well a little bit further east.

35:58Andy Greenwald:and they go to like lots popping in Belarus and a lot of the shows we've been watching. That's true. Think about that. You go, you give me one. I don't have a ton. So, did you ever read the book Appointment and Samara? I have this down too. Do you? Yeah, but this is like, let's chop it up. So this is John O 'Hara. John O 'Hara, 1934 novel, like the, I read it recently. I don't know if you read it back in the day, but like the book that people, the book that everyone thinks Fitzgerald wrote, but actually they're thinking about Fitzgerald's life. This is that book. It's about like one night in a Pennsylvania suburb among us where a guy basically wildly circles the drain and drinks himself.

36:38Andy Greenwald:Yeah. It's like a social it's a it's a snapshot of a social class and culture and just ruinous mistake. This is what your friends and neighbors should be. Yeah, this is right. This is right. And and I think that when I so it's in like Gibbsville, Pennsylvania, which no disrespect to our neighboring towns from where we grew up. I think what would be interesting would be to put it in a place like Beacon, New York or Maplewood, New Jersey. You can't take John O 'Hara out of Pennsylvania. Yes. First of all, I can do what I want. He's dead. Sorry. But the reason being, the idea of this like well-heeled but entrenched demimonde, like, again, no disrespect to the great work Governor Shapiro is doing.

37:21Andy Greenwald:Like, I don't know how much of that is in Pennsylvania right now. Whereas I think it's interesting to explore these towns of people who have left the city and are very pleased with themselves. Listen, I'm among them for like being able to now have a yard and neighbors and like, look, we're performing America, but we're being we're being cool and maybe polyamorous or whatever. In this house, we believe in Michael Clayton. Oh, a million percent. You said it among those lawns. And then I but then was interesting. You actually helped me with this one. I don't know if you had a different setup, but I was trying to think of who are our best interlocutors and examiners of long-term relationships and the cracks that can appear in things.

38:01Andy Greenwald:And first I was like, is this an opportunity to hire one of the savage Brits like Jesse Armstrong or something? Or like one of the last great shows about marriage was The Americans. Yeah. So I was like, would Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields come off the bench for this? But you gave me the right answer, which is Francesca Sloan off of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. because I think maybe, and I don't know how you feel about the project writ large, but I was excited about the chance to inject some youth into this fairly stodgy list. Because this is Matthew Wiener coded. You know, like it is, very much I think Mad Men pulled from O 'Hara.

38:37Yeah, that's right. And Cheever and a lot of these sort of like poets of middle-aged alcoholism. Malays, yeah. That's really cool. Any ideas of like who could play

38:48Andy Greenwald:the main character. Who's the guy from Christopher Briney? You want to cast him again? Should we put him in all of these? You know what? My next one was The Magus by John Fowles. It wouldn't be bad if he had an English accent as a grad student teaching English in Greece who comes under the spell of an eccentric rich man and plays a series of games with him where it makes him question reality and there's a lot of stuff about World War II in there. I need a I need a Lynchian showrunner I need not Lynchian and that he runs the show like David Lynch but someone capable of atmosphere and dream worlds I have a piggyback for that so who I think would be the right showrunners for this okay so I picked Day of the Locust Nathaniel West book about being down and out in Los Angeles and turns out turns out there's a magnet that attracts all the evil people here as Sam Levinson wait a second let me back up for a second appointment and Samara.

39:48Are you updating that? Are you like, is it contemporary? So for the magus, you could get into a lot of things about how the digital world makes us not really understand what's real and what's not for your, uh, for your Nathaniel West adaptation. Yeah. Would that be current?

40:04Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I think I, I'm not interested in, in period pieces, brother. Like I'm a buyer right now. You know what I mean? Like I'm trying to program for 2028, 2029. Assuming we start. Can't I get Budapest to look like Gibbsville? Can't. Can I afford to gas up the Quixote trucks to get them anywhere in 2029? Probably not. So yeah, Hollywood, Hollywood is hard. Hollywood is difficult. Hollywood is a nightmare place, et cetera, et cetera. A tale told many times, often well. But the main thing, so my first thought was like, Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg are kind of doing this with the studio. And I'm curious if they have a desire to play with a different gear.

40:41Andy Greenwald:And I kind of don't think they do because they have been slightly, like Preacher and The Boys, other things they produced have flirted with topicality, but they do like heads exploding. The single most David Lynch creator working today is my guy Tim Robinson. Wow. I think you should leave the chair company. So you think he should do Day of the Locust? Tim Robinson and Zach Kanan should do Day of the Locust. I think they should do The Magus. I think they should just expand their footprint in this town. I had Amy Simons. Okay, good. Who obviously had a negative experience working on The Idol where she was replaced midstream by Sam Levinson.

41:20Andy Greenwald:Lucky. I had a negative experience working on The Idol too. And I had to do the whole thing. You know, it's currently on The Testaments but it hasn't directed TV. She does lots of TV directing. I mean, she did episodes of Atlanta and stuff like that. But I would love to put her in charge of something like this. And I think that the material would suit her in a lot of ways. That's good. I have one more throw at you. Hit me. This is a pretty good layup. It's The Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad. That too. So this is a story about a relatively successful London businessman. Genuinely tell the story.

41:55Andy Greenwald:This is the most ripe for adaptation and for reinvention and for updating, I would think, of the whole list. And it's about a guy who's a business owner in London who is, in fact, a spy on behalf of what is supposed to be Russia, essentially. He's recruited to be. But it's unnamed, yeah. and it jumps around a lot chronologically in the novel around a bombing and you could do it now. You could do it then if you wanted to. But one of the great unrealized projects is the perspective third season of The Nick. Whoa, look what you're doing here. Remember when he was like it's just going to be the hospital but it's jumping ahead like 50 years and wasn't Barry Jenkins or somebody going to direct it?

42:39Andy Greenwald:Yeah, the idea was that the real star of the Nick, kind of like with ER after many years, the real star of the Nick was the hospital. Yes. And that while Steven Soderbergh, who directed every episode, and Clive Owen, who was the star, may recede from view, someone else could pick up the mantle and tell the story of the same hospital in a different era of New York. Yeah. And there were versions of it where, oh my God, why am I blanking on my beloved actor's name? Andre Holland. Andre Holland was going to continue playing the part that he played so brilliantly, and there was talk that Barry Jenkins was going to get involved.

43:12Andy Greenwald:We were going to jump forward 20 years. Well, I have the idea of reuniting Soderbergh and Clive Owen on this. Nice. But I wonder whether or not you do... One half of it is the, you know, basically turn-of-the-century tale and the other is like modern times. This is good. But it's like maybe two different directors shooting the same actors or it's like Soderbergh shooting both but you're dressing... depressing because, you know, you could shoot London. There's parts of London that do look exactly like it did in the beginning of the 20th century. And there are at least two people in this room who'd be willing to scout it.

43:48Andy Greenwald:Yes. No need to name names. Honestly, there's probably five people in this room that would scout. It's quite possible. So you get Soderbergh and Owen in the past and you get Briney and Zach Craig or one of your other kids that you like in the, he's our age, isn't he? Like in the present day. We are not Chris Briney's age. No, didn't Zach Craig more more of our contemporary? Yes, but still younger than us. I mean, so is everyone. But I just mean like he's... A couple other ideas that I had, like Naked and the Dead, the Norman Mailer World War II novel. I just, let's make World War II stuff. And equally a bummer with Appointment and Samara would be an American Tragedy.

44:26The Theodreiser 1925 novel. But yeah, like it would be pretty bleak to do American Tragedy. It's kind of in the name.

44:34Andy Greenwald:Yeah. What if it was Ryan Murphy's American tragedy? Oh, my God. Sells itself. Dude. All right. I'm just going to assign a few more works to showrunners where you don't even have to talk about it. Okay. Secret agent I had also. I want to give it to my friend Joe Barton, Black Doves. Your personal friend? Yeah. Okay. I mean, I'm giving it to him because he makes good television, but he's also a lovely guy, and look, Spurs are struggling this season. It's all a network. So this is how it works. Yeah, you're here pitching, like, more World War II content, and they're like, we will not be validating your parking.

45:03Andy Greenwald:I'm trying to make this stuff happen you know what I mean I got kids to feed Walker Percy's the movie goer yep Sterling Harjo go take it interesting see what you want to do with it a nice walking around ambling kind of vibe yeah Edith Wharton's House of Mirth they mirth it up though don't they they're constantly mirthing however Phoebe Waller-Bridge should be making something like that not Tomb Raider you know what bring yours what is she why can't she do both that's what I'm saying you know Who else could do it? Sophie, what's her name, could do it with her. Sophie Turner? Sophie Turner could do it with her.

45:37Andy Greenwald:Like they could do both shows simultaneously. It happens all the time. Happens all the time. Quite easy. Everything's being made in London anyway. And then finally, Saul Bellow's Adventures of Augie March. I think we just hand it to, speaking of, this is all, it's all about who you know. So I think we give that to our friend and listener Tracy Letts and the Steppenwolf players and be like, go make your Chicago show. A contemporary Augie March? Okay. Everything contemporary. Do you understand? I do not have the budget or the discretion to greenlight something. For any kind of period cars. Anything with period P's.

46:09Andy Greenwald:Every car in it, by the way, is going to be one of those like Vinfast. One of those like, it's an electric car company owned by Saudi Arabia, maybe, that you see on the road now. They're sponsoring it. I can't wait till you get your BYD, the Chinese electric cars. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And everybody's like, when are we going to get those? They're like$20. Listen, I hear gas prices are problematic right now. Couldn't be me. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for?

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47:39And that one. And even that one. That's because Apple Card users earn 2 % daily cash back on every purchase, including everyday items they buy online or in store when using their Apple Card with Apple Pay. Not an Apple Card customer? You can apply in the Wallet app on iPhone. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at apple.co slash benefits. Let's talk about Euphoria. Kitty Likes to Dance is the episode. It's episode four of this third season. We've seen stuff online now about this not being the last season of Euphoria. I would imagine if in any shape or form this show goes on, it's not going to be with the same actors.

48:21Or at least not all of them. I think this is going to be the end of this group of characters together this high school class has moved on. I say that without having watched ahead. I just don't know where you would take them in their 30s or whatever. How did you feel about this midpoint episode?

48:40Andy Greenwald:I thought this was the best episode of the season. I thought it was the most engaging and I thought it was also, I feel like this is sort of my default role because again, I can't speak to the arc of the series as a whole, but this felt the most cohesive as a episode of episodic television that was attempting to move multiple balls forward at the same time. Yes, the cross-cutting was noted. The cross-cutting was notable and also tonally the stories fit better together. And there were moments, like when Rue visits the Melrose Place-esque apartment building where all the characters are now living, where I was like, oh, this is what characters do on ensemble television shows.

49:20Andy Greenwald:Right. Their storylines intersect with each other. Inexplicably live together. And they share the screen sometimes or one person's problems. In this case is Rue's desire to find another person to sell her hard drugs would maybe bring her in contact with characters who are in the midst of their own storylines. Yes. Like Maddie photographing Cassie with a leaf blower. So I do have positive things to say about this episode. I also want to say, and I'm curious if Kaya wants to weigh in on this as well. this morning when I was driving the girls to school I mentioned that that I you know be talking about the show today and my older daughter said oh I know everything that's going on on that show and I said really I don't think that's a good idea and she said bro this is what they say there are so many fan edits right now yeah and she said and then I was like really you know what's going on this season and she said some marriages weren't meant to last that's one way of looking at it less than 12 hours after this episode ends she also said that he meaning Nate treated Maddie unkindly it's true and I was like you now know more about the canonical arc of this show than I do she's watching TikTok fan edits of Euphoria does it have like anything from the silver slipper in it like are they here's how I know the answer is no because I was saying something about like She's like a rated PG.

50:49No, she's like, I heard last night it was about dancing.

50:52Andy Greenwald:Yes. And how people like doing it. And I was like, that's what it's about. No, I was saying something about how, and I'll say it again on this podcast, how amazing Zendaya is in this show. And I was something that I was talking about, I don't know, maybe I said something about there's a scene where she's driving or something. She's really, she's just so alive in every moment, even when she's driving or something. And my daughter said, she shouldn't be driving. She's a drug addict. And I said, no, she's not. she is currently a DEA informant trying to snitch on two competing drug gangs who are heading for a massive violent war.

51:25Andy Greenwald:And she said, oh, I didn't see any of that. So thank you, Google's age settings, I guess. And then was she also like, what's the DEA? Wait, hold on, I gotta make a quick phone call. So that's where we are with the culture. Let's talk about the Rue part first because you can sort of split this show into different buckets because they aren't always coming all together, right? Like there is like a brief moment where Cassie, Lexi, Maddie, and LaRue share the screen. There isn't a ton of interaction between Zendaya and the other actors like there. It is similar to like Industry Season 4, Episode 2 where you might watch that episode and be like, that one guy is not talking to any other characters.

52:10is Rua ghost.

52:12Andy Greenwald:We won't spoil it too much, but yeah. She's just extraordinary, man. I'm trying to think of every week coming up with a different description of her, and it's really been, I guess, at the forefront of my mind just because she's so incredible in the drama. So she's really... I've been watching her on screen pretty much all year now. And the scene with the two DEA agents in the interrogation room is they kind of play her with being like, all we found was like a joint in the car so good her resignation um both when the dog the drug sniffing dog starts barking and then when they're like you're fucking going to prison for the rest of your life unless you help us uh is so i don't know it's just so approachable like she for somebody who's so famous and so kind of larger than life she is playing this part and it feels like someone I I know like it feels like someone I see at coffee shops it feels like somebody I've been at bars with and it it's it's a really remarkable availability and like being being open and being yeah it's vulnerable yeah but it's not like performatively like I I'm dirty you know or anything like that it's like really present and she does movie star shit all every episode she She does like her fucking blood splattered face and her eyes moving from the safe to the guys holding the gun on Big Eddie.

53:41It's just like, that's how she's her.

53:44Andy Greenwald:One of the best definitions of good acting is being present and alive in any situation moment to moment. And it is a masterclass in screen acting. Like maybe she's great on stage too. I wouldn't doubt that she can do anything. but the way that she can be so outrageously, exquisitely, intricately alive every second that the camera is on her where she's showing us something, she's showing us the thought process, she's showing emotion, she's showing history that, as I keep saying, I'm not privileged. I don't know her history, but I can read enough of it emotionally on her face to be engaged by it.

54:21Andy Greenwald:It's astonishing. And that scene, I mean, the first 10 minutes of the episode absolutely rip because that's what it's about. and she elevates everything, yes, but I'm not withholding flowers because that scene, the way in the interrogation room, the way it's lit, the way it's shot, the way those two dudes are those specific two dudes. One who is also meeting her with his presence and the other one is basically dead-faced, which is a choice, you know, because there's other kinds of good screen acting. Like I was thinking about why I like Marty Supreme so much and one of the things that Josh Safdie is so good at is non-professional actors who are not necessarily vibrant and alive and processing.

54:58No, they just look like real people.

55:00Andy Greenwald:And they behave like real people. Yeah. Minute to minutes. You're like, I'm seeing someone. So it's like, we're praising people who I see that they are acting or I see that they are not acting. Yeah. And when you get the right recipe of those two things together, it's something else. Yeah, that whole exchange in the interrogation room where, you know. It was funny. It was well-written. Yeah, like, have you been to Mexico? Is it nice? And he's like, some parts. Nice. Yeah. Great scene. And all that stuff of like, if I've been to the moon, if you asked me if I've been to the moon and I was like hell no and they were like I have a picture of you on the moon it's like no you don't because I've never been and that's not how you're answering the Mexico question I love that sequence her I think after she gets out of that interrogation room one thing I noticed that Levinson does a little bit is he's starting to de-Michael Bayify Rue's POV of her own life yeah that's right because for a couple of weeks there you know it's basically been like hype williams videos inside of like the and i mean that is a giant compliment inside of the silver slipper and it's starting to get a little bit more daylight and a little bit more overhead fluorescent lighting a little bit more like this person's waking up not necessarily like she wasn't aware of what she was doing but sexual violence on a cc black and white cctv screen but it's the it's the series of events that leads up to that it's like Like she knows that she's now got a snitch jacket.

56:23She's in this card game and she knows Alamo is looking at her in a different kind of way. And she either has to like pretend to be falling off the wagon or try to obscure the fact that she's like running a game on him. And obviously Bishop is starting to notice that.

56:41Andy Greenwald:Daryl Bird Gibson is phenomenal in this episode. He's been great the whole season. He's fantastic. But his nonverbal performance in that scene and across this episode, he's building something, you know, that could be in lesser hands could just be a cliched or recognizable architect. Yeah, you would have seen, oh, I've seen this guy, like sort of idiosyncratic hitman is somebody who's been in movies and TV shows for 30 years now since Pulp Fiction. And then you get to that CCTV footage of Kitty with basically being assaulted. And Kitty is played by an actress who's the sister of the lead of your show, Tell Me Lies.

57:19Andy Greenwald:It's not my show, but yes, I've watched it. It's Grace Van Patten's sister. It's not your show? I like it. We're really saying it's like, I don't take possession of it. You know what I mean? It's a show for everybody. Leah, again, I welcome How It's a Flight from Paris. What is my vision? For the ambassadors? I'd like you to watch the show of mine. Tell me lies. And then, yes, by the end, you know, covered in blood, sitting next to Rosalia. As one is. Yeah. Rosalia, like, this is a much bigger part than I thought it was going to be. It's also, like... She plays Magic, the girl with the neck brace.

57:58Andy Greenwald:But also, it's like, I don't know. I mean, again, I don't frequent many silver slippers, silver's slipper. Strip clubs, yeah. I don't know how many Catalan exotic dancers there are in the Southland. Maybe it's a thing. Maybe it's like, you know, it's like a pipeline. Yeah. The way like Beef taught me that you should look for the Filipino nurses. Like maybe you should look for, you know, Spanish separatist strippers. I am fascinated if one day the story is written about like, yeah, we got Rosalia on the show because we were filming the entire silver slipper sequence in seven days. Do you know what I mean?

58:33Andy Greenwald:Because I don't think she was there for like a 10 month block shoot. Well, if you just do magic stuff, I wonder if it's just a couple of days, but you're right. I mean, now she's sort of getting a bigger part because she's a little bit more partnered with Rue. against all odds. I'm also so broken-brained about the show that I did start noticing things like, like, Rosalia is in a scene at the Silver Slipper when all she's required to do is have Rue walk past her on the way to the office. And I was like, well, okay, that's not a good wife situation. No. She was there that day to film that one walk-by and she didn't need to be.

59:06And then the episode ends, the Rue part of the episode ends with the reveal that the getaway driver, there's a robbery at the Silver Slipper. It's pretty obviously Laurie's guise to viewers, but for the characters, they're not so sure until they see Faye's signature. Very plump lips. You're right. This was the most satisfying TV episode of the season. And I thought it was the one where it was like, okay, now we've left the garage and now a story is developing.

59:40Andy Greenwald:I think generally the reason why I've responded to the Rue storyline this season isn't just because it's anchored by Zendaya's performance. It's because in those scenes, I can feel a filmmaker having fun with convention and with tropes and cliches in a way that feels active and engaged. like you mentioned Tarantino and some of it can feel like Tarantino light, but when it's edited so well, like the card game was and everyone's giving it their best and there's these little, just there's an edge to it. Yeah, but even like the shot of her as she's sort of watching behind the glass as Eddie starts to negotiate with the group of guys like that they're going to have sex with Kitty.

1:00:25It's like, it's starting to look more and more dark and nefarious. This is the thing.

1:00:29Andy Greenwald:I want to, like, I think it takes me a while. Generally, I am more drawn towards things that are interior or written in a different way than things that are told predominantly through the cinematography and the camera work and the direction, for lack of a better word. And so some of the episode and some of the storylines have left me cold because the real passion is in the camera movement. And there was a lot of camera movement in this episode, and some of it was quite striking. And I appreciate the technical difficulty of that. And I also appreciate the fact that there's a filmmaker telling us what he wants to tell us emotionally on screen through what the camera is doing.

1:01:08Andy Greenwald:But then there is the Rue storyline in which not only is it giving space to have her performance to elevate it, to give space to the writing, to be a little bit crackly and fun and surprising. But then, to your point, that's when the direction comes over the top as the third heat to also surprise us with how we feel about what we are seeing. It's such a smart observation about a show that I'm often too quick to discredit that her experience of the strip club is an aesthetic choice that is now changing. Yes, and I think that in the hands of another filmmaker, they might just be like, we've settled on a look for the strip club.

1:01:44Yeah, and it's cool.

1:01:44Andy Greenwald:We've lit it this way. And now it's like, no, this is a place they'll give you migraines. Everybody here is on ketamine. Sexual assault is pretty common. People are probably being human trafficked. Like, this is hell, you know? And this guy, Alamo, is not a cool pimp reading history books. Like, he's a menacing, malevolent force. And I think we're starting to, like, that stuff is all starting to merge. I actually also thought, call me crazy, that the Cassie Maddy stuff was equally compelling on, like, a heist level. Where they're going into an influencer's home to essentially stage a moment that's going to break Cassie wide in the world of influencers and OnlyFans.

1:02:30Yeah. And the orchestration of that and Natty being like, you have to like get noticed, get into bed with him or get him at the precipice of getting into bed, but do not fuck him. Yeah. And the sort of like comic psych gag of like no do coke out of my belly button, no do coke out of my belly button was like pretty funny.

1:02:52Andy Greenwald:Could you imagine that same setup in The Ambassadors? If we could get there with Henry James. I mean, Europe is a playground, my man. You know? And that was the girl, the girl that she goes upstairs with is the girl that Maddie was originally managing in the beginning of the season. So it's all coming together. Again, that worked less for me because I am less compelled by coming in cold, Maddie and Cassie generally. And I was confused by Maddie's shifting status in that it seems like she's kind of a hanger-on who's struggling, and yet she plays this entire party like it's Stradivarius, and her presence in it is understood, is respected.

1:03:35Andy Greenwald:She's able to maneuver people. Maybe she's a master manipulator. She knows everybody who she needs to know. Now, that's convenient for the story, but that seemed confusing for the version of the person that had been introduced to me two weeks ago. That said, this sounds crazy, But like what you just sketched out, that the way to do a heist on status and attention would revolve around. Yeah, the payoff is the notifications. Camera phones, notifications, social media, hard drugs, Hollywood Hills parties. Like that is a war euphoria was designed to win. Like this is the new class battleship that we want unblocking this particular strait.

1:04:19Andy Greenwald:Am I losing the metaphor? No. I just mean that like, even from a distance, my perception of what the show was doing, that separate apart from like the quality of it, that it was effective at, was engaging with contemporary culture. Yeah. And contemporary fame economy or young life. Like this, this is, these are the ones we want on this. And, you know, for as much as people have questioned, uh, how he is depicting Sidney Sweeney and to what extent she's in, on the joke. Yeah. And what the joke is necessarily. And what is a joke? I thought it was pretty funny to have Cindy Sweeney show up at a party and everybody be like, she's the new the new kid in town at this like influencer party, basically.

1:05:03And there are like people eyeballing her, but she's got to like, do the footloose dance to get everybody's attention. Yeah. Up on stage. I like the way that they are playing with her public persona. So I suppose the less successful elements of this episode for me personally were the Jules and Nate stuff. Nate, just because I can't help but watch this show somewhat from your POV at this point and wonder whether or not, if you understand Nate saying at this zoning meeting.

1:05:33Andy Greenwald:You know I was interested at that point. But if Nate not being able to build leads him back to Dark Nate, it's going to be really funny and it's quite an interesting commentary on the state of Los Angeles. And why we can't build things anymore. Yeah, but when he's begging the guy and saying like, I'm trying to be good, I'm trying to be good, trying to do a good thing, that is because he has done so many bad things. So I didn't know that, but my daughter did tell me about that this morning. Did she tell you any of the details of his nefarious deeds? No, apparently he was a bad guy, she said, and maybe an abusive guy.

1:06:09Andy Greenwald:For sure. But that's the extent of it. Yeah. Now, maybe I need to have like a more serious talk with her to unpack some of this, but also like so she can help me out with my coverage of the show. Sure. But yeah, I don't. That is the storyline that is clearly the most beholden to past baggage and not just the beautiful Barbie Dreamhouse luggage set that Cassie threw from one floor of the house to the other in her grand escape. Yeah. So yeah, I agree. I continue to think that like some of the best filmmaking is in the Nate and no longer Cassie stuff, just the colors and the framing and the lighting.

1:06:45Andy Greenwald:but I am uninterested. He is in a similar situation to Rue where he's being put into an impossible position. And it'll be interesting to see how he reacts. I think that Rue is starting to, like, every time she looks at that safe, I'm like, she's looking at that safe. She's been looking at it. Yeah, and the same thing goes for Lori's basement of illegal pleasures full of drugs and guns and money. but I feel like those two characters are being having the most pressure put on them in a lot of ways and how they react will kind of define the rest of the season the Jules part I don't really know what to say because it doesn't really seem like it's in the same show as everybody else I thought we were going to get a little bit more coherence out of or cohesiveness out of like the plot lines once they reintroduced Jules and introduced this idea of her being a sugar pigmy and introduced this plastic surgeon and introduced all this stuff and now it's like Jules is kind of hanging out at Lexi's workplace and putting a bunch of dicks on a George Surratt painting and it's not successful.

1:07:55Andy Greenwald:That is a radical reinterpretation of Sunday in the Park with George. Yes. Now, they contrast that with Cassie at the party, right? Like, isn't that during that sequence, it's like Jules painting is Cassie painting over it. Yeah, I mean, I think if you squint, there may be some loose commentary there about the old ways to become famous and the new ways to become famous. That's true. And how hidebound the old ways are. And I do think that those scenes, the Sharon Stone scenes with the, you know, the necessary Din Tai Fung takeout containers in her office are meant to be satire. Yes. They fall flat for me, even though I'm enjoying Sharon Stone's performance quite a bit.

1:08:35Also quite funny, I wonder how the homies at HBO felt about a studio executive being like, do you know what your day of missed shooting cost? Yeah, that's a little bit of like,

1:08:45Andy Greenwald:we're all laughing here, right guys? Right? But the naivete of everyone involved was discordant to me. Not just that like, what a great opportunity to have my friend come do a painting for a television show that has 8 million people watching it every week, which is like, okay, buddy, good luck. I wish. What is this, mayor of Kingstown? I know. But beyond that, then like, the reaction to it and then the like, the idea that she somehow, her dreams have been crushed because this insane painting that she's hung on the set of a television show is somehow being rejected. Like, I am, I don't understand this character at all or what her point of view is or what we're doing with her.

1:09:28I couldn't tell, honestly. I think the thing that you have to ask yourself is, do you think that what Jules does to the painting is like an artistic breakthrough for her? Because it happens wordlessly Sure. in comparison to Cassie painting her masterpiece. You know, I think. So I'm wondering whether or not, like through this rejection of her expression of sexuality, did Rue find a more abstract, but more powerful way of expressing herself. Sorry, Jules find a more abstract and powerful way of expressing herself. Or was she just like, I'm going to ruin this painting with red paint and then walk away and we'll pick my story up next week.

1:10:05Andy Greenwald:I think what's frustrating, and I want to be careful when I say this, because I actually, big picture thought, I do not have a prescription for this show. There is not a version of season three. The show's not sick. It doesn't need one. Fair enough. But I'm not sitting down here being like, if only here's how you'd fix it. Like this is such a unique convergence of events and celebrity and vibes and aesthetics and all of it that it just is what it is. So here we are covering it every week. That said, a minor frustration of Woulda Coulda is that genuinely an idea of how limiting and how unpleasant and how surprising and occasionally depraved the opportunities are for people five years out of high school in quote unquote this town or maybe America.

1:10:54Andy Greenwald:Like that's, that's a fairly fertile landscape to explore. And again, if you squint that the former addict is now giving drugs to people and trying to go legit, but also is now completely enmeshed in an impossible, never-ending drug war with pigs and dead birds surrounding her. But specifically that idea of people who were special in high school one way or another and then wanting to make it. And then what are the options of doing that? Can you marry a conservative businessman? Well, no, because everyone's leveraged and no one can do anything and everybody's in debt to somebody else. Like, can you become, can you get a job in Hollywood?

1:11:32Andy Greenwald:while you can unwrap someone else's dumplings to work on something that is already failing. Pounding away on final draft. Something's coming. Well, XOXO. She had quite a dramatic debut last year, last season with her play. I'll ask my daughter about it. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, and maybe this is what you find an element of what keeps you coming back isn't just that it's not boring, but like you see these things, these potentially amazing things is just sort of tossed out and then we move in a different direction. There's no shortage of stuff. Sure. And some of it is working and some of it isn't, but it was, I thought, broadly speaking, a entertaining and surprisingly cohesive episode of TV and suggests an endgame of sorts that we're moving to, potentially not a series endgame, but a season endgame that will be compelling in a different way, in an old-fashioned way, in a, oh, I'm engaged and curious what's going to happen next.

1:12:27Yeah, I think the thing I'm most fascinated by is, I mean, I remain entertained by it on episode to episode level is to what extent will the main characters influence the outcome of the other main characters? Or are they all going to have like personal epiphanies, catharsis, endpoints at the end of the season that don't have a ton to do?

1:12:47Andy Greenwald:What is the history? I will ask you this. Like, what is the history of the show in terms of its finales? Like, have the storylines overlapped? Yes. I mean, they were all in high school together. Okay. Yeah. So that was the thing is that like now Los Angeles is their high school. So it's to what extent is Rue going to get a drug connect through Maddie? Is she going to start selling to the guy that Cassie was just seen with this week? I mean, they'll have to pull things together. And to what extent does Nate put down his shovel and his ideas of building homes for the elderly and get back involved in some dark shit?

1:13:25Andy Greenwald:It's also interesting to watch it with an old-fashioned TV brain. an example of that would be when the superstar influencer asks if the coke has been tested and she's like no I get it from my usual plug it's fine he's like okay and then what does Cassie say I love coke she got me on that one that in a more conventional television show would be laying a trail towards fentanyl lace cocaine entering this milieu too and the world's colliding I think it's possible that it might I mean, there's but it's also euphoria that may never come up again it's just that we're watching an influencer and that is a accurate reflection of how hard partying people on camera all the time have to treat drugs I thought it was also an interesting commentary on like, you know we've moved on from like the safe sex era and into the safe drug era we?

1:14:17Andy Greenwald:America well again when Lea Seydoux arrives at LAX you're gonna have to explain all of this to her you may feel a magnet below this city trust me it's a metaphor do you wanna talk about the Sixers before we go at all? You want to swap the lights? What do you want to say? Let's get a little tender here. That is a legitimately beautiful sports moment. And I'm really, really, really, really happy for those guys. They don't need me to be happy for them. But I just want to say, like, watching Joel Embiid get his entire body stretched out and just watching him and being like, do you have to stretch snap endectomy surgery?

1:14:49Like, I don't really know what's happening here. Like, did you rip your stitches? Like, what happened? and watching him on the ground and like everything that he's put his body through.

1:15:00Andy Greenwald:Yeah. It's just the first round. It's, but it is game seven in Boston and it just, it meant something. That was fucking incredible. I want to be careful here because I'm worried this is a little bit like when like Pete Buttigieg goes on like Fox News and they let him cook for like 10 minutes and then the feed gets pulled. Like how much can we talk about this series? We're free to. We're free to. You're sure? Yeah. You've been given the green light. Yes. Yeah. We can't just be like, mostly, my first reaction about the Sixers winning Game 7 over the Celtics was I felt bad for Derek White. He didn't have the series that he wanted, you know?

1:15:34Andy Greenwald:And so, put the camera on him, he's laughing at the bit. It's just, that was what Bill saw in Game 5. That's right. Genuinely, this has been a rollercoaster for me because I have not been... You didn't make yourself available emotionally to this. No, but what was terrifying, although not probably surprising to you, was like I felt like the crater opened inside of me as I was sitting down to watch game seven of how badly I wanted this. Yeah. And how wonderful it was to finally actually win one of these. Like, I know we've had a lot of citywide success over the last few years, but specifically this team and specifically against that team.

1:16:14Andy Greenwald:Yeah, you just need to get those guys. Like, I honestly, I obviously hope we beat the Knicks. Yeah. A lot of nice Knicks fans in my life, happy for them. Don't have my hopes up very high for it. Anything is possible. I'm pulling for us, but like I just, beating Boston was in and of itself like worth it. And I also want to say, I understand how funny it is when there are people, like their fan bases and things are like want to put up in the rafters that they like came in second in the play-in tournament or whatever. It's like, I would legitimately hang a banner that we advanced out of the first round into game seven.

1:16:47Andy Greenwald:That's fine. And I will always remember where we were. Can I ask you a sports thing about this game? Just your general take on this? One thing after this game, which was thrilling and we won, and Tyrese Maxey was the best player on the court, and that was awesome, was as soon as it's over, this is not unique to the series, but everybody is so buddy-buddy. Like, everyone, immediately, Joel goes over to Jalen Brown, and they have some hugs, and everybody's dapping up everybody. Don't you love that? Don't you love everybody being friends? I like everybody on the same team being friends so I can fall asleep at night.

1:17:20Typically at the end of series, people really dab each other up. I think there's a version of it that is like respect. Yeah. But I feel like it was a little too... Jamie McDaniels essentially was like every Nuggets is a marshmallow and like every Nugget is like not worthy of being on the floor with me and then at the end of that season, he like seriously hugged Yogi. So it's a switch you can flip. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's like you and me. It's all love in here. and then once and then we get out there I'm like you fucking marshmallow but I'm like I am a marshmallow it's true that was cool I can't believe we have to play again tonight

1:17:57Andy Greenwald:yeah but you can't I did google it you can't have a second appendectomy that's like what's cool about it is that like every time someone rolls into his knee I'm like same fucking knee man that's crazy you can't just tick it off it's not like the game of operation where it's gone I did double check this. You cannot regrow the appendix and it cannot burst again. Okay, good. So that's in our favor. I didn't think that that was going to happen. I am worried about his hip contusion and his knees and everything else. And Maxie's hand and the Knicks fans and all that stuff, like in the intensity of the garden.

1:18:31But if we punt game one, it's okay. It's a long series. It's a long series. Yeah. Anything can happen. Alright, thanks to Kai, Kaya, and Sarah. We will be back on Thursday to talk about Widow's Bay and Top Chef and some other stuff. We'll put the modern library list of 100 books in the show notes. Oh, yeah. I'll send that to Kaya.

1:18:51Andy Greenwald:This is a safe space to do those things. Well, I don't know if I necessarily landed the plane, but, you know, we'll see. I think the Air France plane is on its way.