‘Furious’ Season Finale With Star Emmy Rossum and Creator Liz Meriwether

21:56Yeah, well, I think, you know, I think the character's superpower. Oh, Liz is choking on her tea.

22:04Andy Greenwald:It's because she pulled the bag too early. See, this is the problem. Just for people just tuning in. Emmy got her tea timing perfect. Liz, wardrobe right, but tea was a mess. Please, please continue. I think the character's superpower is her ability to dissociate from herself. it it when trauma comes up you see that she's squeezing her hands progressive muscle relaxation it's intentional to try to make those feelings subside to go away to put him back in the box this is a character who has a lot of secrets she doesn't believe she can get justice for herself doesn't maybe even think she's the right kind of person that is deserving of justice so she's definitely also because of her trauma got obsessive tendencies definitely not diagnosed and puts that all into the work and stays extremely present and extremely driven on anything except herself.

23:00And, you know, she's buttoned all the way to the top, doesn't want anyone to get close, smells probably subconsciously, intentionally to keep people away from her. She is driven in this moment to not look back. And it's going to be this case that caused—and, you know, having to come in contact with the ex and the kind of thread that she shares with this killer that is going to make all this stuff come up for her, that's going to force her to kind of, the rage is going to uncork in a way that, like, the pressure in that bottle has been, it's been, there's a lot of white knuckling going on. I just think also, I think you see the moment of trauma on TV a lot.

23:47You see, you know, the thing that happens, but you don't see the years, the long tail of trauma, you know, like you don't see the years after. So I think there's a misunderstanding around the process of healing because you don't see it a lot because it's not dramatic. You know, it's like, I get it. The trauma part is more exciting. But I think it was really interesting. Actually, I spoke to a woman who had been trafficked, Jay Benke, who runs advocacy groups now. And she was talking about her experience with the justice system was they kind of come in, they want to get quote unquote justice, punishment.

24:31They want to get someone sentenced. But there's no engagement with what happens after that and sort of the long process of healing. And how do you just like figure out how to be a person again after you've been trafficked and all this stuff. So I do think I'm proud of the show kind of like showing. Well, one person became a serial killer, but I'm proud of this show, like showing the complexities of that and the difficulties of it and, you know, how it doesn't make sense. A lot of the times it has a very like. Non-linear healing is non-linear and complicated and messy. And I think Emmy does such an incredible job of showing that and performing that.

25:12And she just dove right into it in a great way.

25:16Andy Greenwald:I do want to ask eventually, I have some questions about the genesis of the project, but I want to stay on the finale just for a moment since people have just watched it. And specifically, there were three moments that really defined the episode for me. And they are three moments of face acting by you. Sure. That are spectacular. My favorite kind of acting is nonverbal. Feel free to do some now as well. Nonverbal is your favorite? My favorite. it why was i working so hard i don't know i love not talking not talking is my favorite kind of my favorite kind of acting just just hand her the 201 script and it's blank yeah it's like blank just close close on alice she face acts fade out beautiful um okay so here are the three moments i want to run by you and we could talk about them in the context of the character's journey and also the finale there is a smile on the way to jay easton's house when alice lies to nora about going in the house alone.

26:07Andy Greenwald:And it is one of, at least to my eyes, one of the purest smiles the character is given during the course of the season. The second is, of course, the long hold on your face when you watch the horrific video. And there's intensity, there's reaction, there's horror, there's tears, and then there is a second look. The third is the, I wrote in my notes, hunter slash hungry when you see the 50 ,000 gross usernames of people who have downloaded the file. That's the journey of Alice in the episode. Might also be the journey of Alice in the season. I do have questions about the sort of granular process of finding those moments in a character that you've been building over the course of the season.

26:45Andy Greenwald:And then maybe to you, Liz, just about the journey. The first one, I don't think was a scripted reaction. She knows by this point that she has this kind of secret bond with Nora and Nora is kind of giving her the go-ahead to go into that house. and she also knows that Danny cares about her. Don't go into that house. And that's ultimately, even though she won't admit it to herself, what she wants. And also there's the excitement of, I know I'm going into that fucking house. And like you said on the pod, like everything is converging on this like scary monster house, which is like just so exciting.

27:19Like it's all coming to an apex and like something's going to happen. And then the second one is the watching of the tape, which I think trauma is so interesting because Alice has been wanting to get into that room since the first episode, even when she goes down to C20 in the first episode. She looks at the keypad and she wants in that room and we don't know why yet. And I don't know if she knows how widely the tape exists. I think she knows the tape exists, didn't disclose it, doesn't know how widely it's circulated. But trauma is weird and we block things out. And I think seeing the video is so incredibly painful at the same time as somehow feeling relief like you're not crazy.

28:07And also like just watching your young self get hurt is just like really horrific. And it's weird because trauma is so weird and dissociative. we can like misremember things all the time, which is obviously what's happening with Catherine. And two days ago, I was at lunch with Quincy and we were talking about when we were training for this.

28:31Andy Greenwald:And then Quincy plays Nora. No, plays Nora. You guys went to an FBI. We got snuck on to West Point. We like laid flat in a truck. Oh, West Point, right. And got snuck on to West Point. I had already been training. You didn't tell me that. You laid flat on a truck. Yeah, we laid flat. Were you worried Liz was going to narc you out? I don't know. I think we were just like, this is crazy, boat. Like, I want to do everything. Like, yeah, any kind. Hello, is this West Point? Check all your trucks. Anonymous tip from a concerned U.S. citizen. But I had been shooting guns and preparing and clearing rooms and training with ex-FBI and ex-NYPD for a year.

29:07Quincy was cast right before we started shooting. And I said, do you want to shoot guns? Like, let's make this real for us. And so I got us snuck onto West Point. And we'll circle back.

29:17Andy Greenwald:Don't worry. We'll circle back. They gave us the training. They like told us how to interrogate people, told us how to like make connections with suspects. They gave us firearms to shoot. And then they were like, do you want to do grenades? Yeah. You don't know this story. And my remembering of it when we were at lunch yesterday was like, oh, no, thank you. We're all good. And Quincy was like, no, you did the grenade. What? And I was like, I did the grenade. And she's like, 100%. You were shaking. You were terrified. What does it mean when you say, I did the grenade? You pull the pin and throw the grenade and it blows up.

29:50It blows up, like, on this crazy hill with all these bombed out trucks. If anyone from Hulu HR is listening, I did not notice.

29:56Andy Greenwald:Also, if anyone from the U.S. Army is listening, please let us know if do the grenade is what you say in basic training. That's definitely not. Okay, soldiers, time to do the grenade. And be fabulous when you do it. I know, I was just picturing a dance of some kind. We're doing the grenade! Sorry. In any case, allegedly, I did the grenade. I have no memory of this. Quincy definitely remembers this. I guess I was like, I'm all for like, let's do whatever it takes to make this as real as possible. So I did the grenade. So in any case, I think you can misremember things. And when things have been scary or adrenalized or traumatizing to you, you don't remember them.

30:35So I think when she's watching the video, she's like, I know now this really happened. Because this is 25 years ago. And you can definitely remember something happening, but seeing it is somehow like crystallizing. Like, yeah, I am a fucking warrior. I am a survivor. Like, I'm not, like, that was a child and that's not me anymore. And then she sees the names and the number. 50 ,000 plus people have watched this victimization. And I think that's like, okay, now it's, now, now, now I'm galvanized with this information. I don't know what I'm going to do with it. This will decide in season two.

31:09Andy Greenwald:I'm sure she's already decided. She's already decided. Well, now I know you're going to do a grenade. I'm going to definitely do a grenade. That's settled. Episode one. I just want to say, like, we shot—I'm going to just jump in. No one wants to hear my thoughts. Where did you sneak in? On any acting. Everybody wants—by the way, I always want to hear your thoughts. You're good. I was there when we shot her watching the video. and I mean it's just like this is when you know you're dealing with like a powerhouse actor because Emmy was able to kind of we talked before we shot the first take but every take was different and like and then she did kind of levels of reactions like we did a version that was just very you know stone face we did and then she worked up to tears and then we were kind of like between every she's an incredible actor and also an incredible producer because the ability to kind of give that present amazing performance and then kind of come back afterwards and be like, that worked.

32:09I felt like this was good. Let's do, you know what I mean? Like that's, it was, it was so moving. And also she was like, you're going to use the tears. And I was like, of course I'm going to use the tears. What are we talking about? I will also say the relationship between your camera operator in that moment and the actor. Yeah. You're in that scene together, right? Because you're looking down the barrel of the lens and the camera operator is this close to you and nobody else is in the room. So it really, really is amazing to have operators like we had Philip and Wilda who are human beings that are like actors in the room with you and they hold that space with you.

32:43And I can't say enough about how important the crew is to scenes like that. But we just, I think we, I think one of the reasons that we did so many different versions of it was because I, it was, it's kind of unimaginable, right? Like what do you, how do you react to that and I I love what you just said because it's actually it is something we're talking about in the writers room right now of like this video is like it's horrifying that it's out there but it's also it it's like you do have proof of it it's like actual tangible tangible proof your trauma is tangible yeah that I think is like it lingers and it feels like you can't wrap your hands around it and now you can because this season I when I sort of put it together that it was going to be about Catherine trying to remember what happened to her, which was like a huge victory in terms of structure and all of that.

33:34But it was so much about memory, memory distortion, which is the name of the third episode. But just the whole justice system is, is built on people being able to remember what happened to them and testify that to what happened to them, which is complete opposite of the experience of being a victim. So I think that Like, I don't know. I had a point, but I'm just going to stop talking.

33:59Andy Greenwald:One of the other reasons why I loved the show is because the show felt incredibly decisive about what it was and where it was going, even if it didn't always feel that way in the process. And I have to say, sometimes I really like it when shows reveal my own cowardly nature. Because there was a part of me that was so invested in the series that when she clicked on it and when Nora had said, go look for it, that it would be gone. That she had cleaned it up. that she had taken care of her, you know, on a friend level, not a professional level, which would not have worked for character for show. And so there was a, I like when I got, I got called out by it, you know, because I didn't want that for them.

34:36Andy Greenwald:And I wondered though, if, because the other things I was admired so much in the season, and we can get into a few other examples of it, was the pacing. That there was room for so much within, you know, it's not a conventional story, but we have seen cat and mouse type stories before. so this finale had room for exciting twists and the surprise at the end it had room for emotion it had a surprising amount of room for romance which I was very happy about but did not necessarily see coming and it had that collision point at the end that might lead into a second season so I wondered Liz were any of the things I'm mentioning specific beats that you knew you were writing to from the beginning?

35:14Andy Greenwald:Romance even if only that I wondered if you did have a North Star from that episode. Yes, I knew that she loved Danny and Danny loved her. But I didn't know that we were going to take it all the way, go all the way, if you will. Do the grenade. Do the grenade. Two consenting adults, sure. But yeah, I think at that point, I think I needed them to be in that condo. I was so in it when I was writing that finale. I didn't know how they were going to get out of the house and I remember writing the finale and I actually had a panic attack let's talk about mental health but no please this is my favorite topic I had a panic attack because I was like um I it was like art imitating life where I was writing them in the Easton house and I didn't know what they were going to do to get out of the house Yeah.

36:13But I so I was like, I feel like I'm in the house. You know, it was so insane. It was so hard to write that finale. And then I was just such a relief to write the scenes in the condo where I was. I think the part of me that, you know, worked on seven seasons of a will they or won't they was like, I'm doing this too soon. but I needed them to like get that win and sort of like have that moment of love because I just felt like we'd all been through so much that I like wanted her to feel tenderness and love and like you know and I like that it kind of exists outside of the world like it's you know New Jersey which it's outer space no but literally yeah it could be but like it's like you know it's sort of not their normal lives.

36:57It's like this other kind of place.

37:00Andy Greenwald:I will just as a side note say that my older daughter out of nowhere yesterday or two days ago said, dad, do you know that Jess and Nick don't kiss for like 74 more episodes?

37:11Andy Greenwald:You know, we used to build things in this country. Okay. Enough with your instant TikTok ratification. That's really funny. Let's, I want to go back to the beginning because, you know, when the, when the show was announced and the show premiered, there was a lot of talk about a, to my mind, I did not know the film Black Widow. I did not remember it. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the genesis of the project. Was one of you a secret Black Widow obsessive? How did the project come together and how did you two partner on it? Well, you are a Black Widow, right? Yes. Yes. I killed so many of my husbands.

37:44Andy Greenwald:I warned Sam constantly. RIP Sam Esmail. He hasn't been on the pod in a couple of years. I know, it's true. Because I killed him. Nobody's seen him. He was out last night, guys. He was seen. Plausible deniability. It's about you being seen out last night that saves you. That's true. No, I went back and I spent a summer watching old movies looking for an idea. Looking for something that would be a jumping off point. I had developed the show Angeline at Hulu at first before I ended up making it a peacock. So I started looking in the searchlight category, catalog, and I just looked at log lines and watched all the movies that I thought might spark something.

38:28Black Widow was one with Deborah Winger and Teresa Russell. I had made a movie with Teresa Russell when I was 14. So it was super high called Passionata. It was super high on my list of like, I want to watch this one because I remember working with that actress. And I watched the movie and the first half is like cat and mouse. Debra Winger plays this FBI agent who's in this like gross boys club misogynistic environment no one's taking her seriously and I was like okay well that that tracks for contemporary day not much has changed and the the killer who you know from the first scene is the killer um I felt that was pretty refreshing too um they're giving it to you up front and it's this kind of they're on this collision course and in the back half these two women who are both kind of lonely and kind of need a friend end up meeting under false pretenses on this beach in Hawaii or wherever they are.

39:19And there's this amazing set piece that I kept trying to convince Liz we had to put in the first season. She was like, we're not going to a Croatian beach. I don't know what you're talking about. What?

39:29Andy Greenwald:Go to the beach. No, of course. She was like, the beach you're going to get is a cold beach in New Jersey. Did you turn to her and say, you're welcome. She was like, I'll give you a cold beach in New Jersey, but I will not give you. But in the movie, there's like this scuba diving set piece where you don't know if they're going to kill each other or kiss. And they also like kind of weirdly become friends, but then you know, and then there's this kind of showdown in the jail at the end. So I was like, okay. And the characters are pretty, like there's room to kind of beef them up and to figure out what their psychological profiles are.

40:00And so I took the idea to Hulu. They liked it. They had just finished the dropout with Liz and said, do you like Liz? And I was like, no, I love Liz. I don't know Liz, but I know I love Liz. And Liz watched the movie and a day later, they were like, you have a show. Wow. So it was a remarkably almost like kismet-y process.

40:19Andy Greenwald:That's amazing. I spoke to Ronald Bass who wrote Black Widow. We had like one conversation and he said that he had pitched the movie. Like he had just like a bunch of ideas and he just like sort of took one from there. One idea? One idea and put them together. But no, I mean, it is such a like strange movie in a great way. And because it's a movie, it didn't really have time to get into like all of the backstory of the characters and kind of makes a point to not get into any backstory. Because Debra Winger does this monologue about her dad and then at the end of it is like, just kidding, it's not true.

40:59So I felt like, oh, there's like room here to like explore something. And I just, I love crime shows. I just have always loved them. And I was been dying to write one, but just like kind of didn't know how and didn't know who was going to ask me to write a crime show. But yeah, there are multiple times throughout the process where I was like, I should not be writing this. They should have hired somebody else. Yes, you should. I think the movie is ultimately about two women who want to be seen by another person, but don't know how to be seen by another person and don't know how to connect with other people.

41:34And then they find each other and connect. And so I was like, that's so weird in the middle of a crime show to have that be the thing. I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX is the bear. The restaurant is flooded.

41:55Andy Greenwald:Everything's either going to be OK. Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. We have each other. FX's The Bear, the final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney+. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners. Sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. and the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together.

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43:39Andy Greenwald:This may sound facetious. I mean this sincerely. I was thinking that one similarity between New Girl and Furious. I mean, there are many, obviously. But sincerely. I based Alice on Schmidt. I could tell. Yeah. The same intensity. But in all seriousness, they are both about the challenges women face navigating primarily male spaces. And Alice's FBI is not the same as The Loft. But, you know, we're not the same people we were 15 years ago. We really aren't. No, but sincerely, I did wonder if there is a common thread between the shows or just between who you were as a writer then and now that allowed you to use a different medium, not a different medium, but like almost a different register to express the story.

44:25I don't know. I mean, it's such a good question. And I don't understand my career. I haven't really drawn. But I mean, the one thing I will say is I do write about people who want to connect with other people but don't know how. I do think that's like, you know, I don't know why I do that. That's so strange. But I think there is something in all of these characters that kind of want to find love and connection and friendship and don't know and can't. And, you know, family, just one of them kills people to do it. You know, the other one is Elizabeth Holmes. I don't know. Like, I try to I try to just.

45:09Andy Greenwald:inside of you there are two wolves one or the other yeah i don't i don't know i think if i stop to like really think about any of it i like it'll go away so i'm choosing to like put my head in the sand that's why i don't listen to your podcast that's fine i don't blame you but i but but emmy as a as a film buff also like i think you also heard me saying this over the last few weeks that like we're on to something here i think with like zach craigard being a sketch comedian who is now the best horror filmmaker of our time jordan peele is another good example but there's something about maybe it's the life that we're talking about seeing or that that that comedy naturally affords writers the ability to to share that jumping into the jumping from one genre to another works when it works it works better than anything else i mean you talked about the pacing but i like i do feel like as a comedy writer you have this enormous pressure to like every scene like there needs to be a joke every couple at least on new girl it was like that kind of traditional you gotta earn your keep you gotta like so there's this pressure on every scene to kind of like what's the bit what's the game where's the joke and i i i do think that helped me on this show to kind of like every scene is like why you know like what is the what's the point of this and i to keep that that pressure going um is something i've learned yeah from seven years of trying to make them laugh gotta make them laugh in the so Emmy this is a question for you as the EP Emmy not just the star Emmy but like one of the things that that I just delighted in week to week was how and similar to what you're saying about making having a laugh in every scene all the textural aesthetic choices that made the show exciting and surprising from you know the way that the credits overlaid to Ariel Marks' score which just immediately tells you it's like oh I've heard this before No, I haven't.

47:03Andy Greenwald:Throughout the whole thing kind of setting you a little bit askew. And then just the outrageous casting, like the most wonderful from Steve Way to Danny McCarthy to, you know, and of course we have to talk about before we even get to Lola. I really want to talk about Quincy Tyler Bernstein, who gave us a character I've never seen before on television. Yeah. There was a question, I think. But it was really just more about the element of surprise as having worked on so many shows as a star and a producer, the way that you can make something come alive through the types of decisions that other people might overlook.

47:36Yeah, I think, you know, it can be overwhelming if you think that you have to make, like, you're like, we're going to make a great show, you know? But, like, things are made because like-minded people come together that understand the task at hand the exact same way, align, and then make one tiny decision at a time. Yeah. Yeah. So Liz and I were casting Nora. We saw a lot of tapes. Quincy was, I think, our favorite. But we tested me with her. It was a slam dunk. We went to see her in the play that she was in that was closing that night. And we were sitting next to each other watching this incredible actress that we knew we were going to get the chance to work with.

48:24Watching her basically, she never leaves the stage the entire time. It's an incredible, incredible show that she did that she then reprised after we shot the first season. And we were sitting there and Danny McCarthy was in the show too. And Constance Shulman was in the show too. I just cast everybody.

48:42Andy Greenwald:And Constance Shulman plays Marshall's mother in like two absolutely unforgettable scenes. And we were sitting there being like, is this just our whole cast? So sometimes things happen where you're so aligned that you're able to put those pieces in. And Liz had always wanted a musical tapestry for the show that felt very unique. And, you know, when we were talking about it, I said it should feel very female. So maybe that's a vocal pad or maybe it's like, you know, the music for Ariel's score. So like really kind of my job as a producer is to fully understand, to get as close to Liz as she will let me get.

49:24Literally get inside her shirt to understand her so that every choice that I'm helping make is advocating for the vision of the showrunner. And what a joy and as an actor to be able to be that close to your showrunner so that every choice that they're thinking and marinating about is also affecting the way that you're understanding character and the way that you're understanding tone. Honestly, I was really scared because I worked with actors as EPs before, but never one that has been like hands-on and I was like oh my god like I yes I was like how is this gonna work I'm scared um and Emmy was just like I think it's also about space you know because like I you have to fail and it's like usually she's like don't get that close yeah please don't get inside my shirt she's got a grenade yeah don't don't make me do the grenade don't sneak in with a wagon into my brain but no uh i think like i i'm used to kind of coming to actors with a mostly finished product so it's scary to me to like allow an actor into a process where you're kind of like this isn't right yet you know and emmy was like an incredible a partner in that way because she understood the process i mean the music ariel did dying for sex as well and i loved working with her and the music was like such a journey it was the tone of the show honestly we i had an idea as I was writing it, while we were shooting it, and then post, I think it was like a whole other journey because there was a kind of flamboyance to the show or like a sort of, it's not like gritty, gritty, gritty, dark, dark, dark.

51:02And I want it to kind of like, there's a buoyancy. Thank you. That's better. Well, you gave me a long time to find it. Yeah, the color palette that we worked with. It's not like drab. It's not desaturated. We really wanted it to feel like it wasn't bleak. Ariel had this like amazing, there's a kind of jazziness to the music. And then there's underlying female vocals that kind of grow as it goes on. And we called the female vocal score, like the sort of ghosts of the past, you know, like that, you know, and so letting those, those voices get louder and louder over the course of the show, obviously, to kind of, you know, take us from the beginning, which has a more buoyancy and more jazz and to the end.

51:45But that was surprising, the kind of like jazz and like the noir kind of feeling to it. I didn't see when we started and then it kind of grew up.

51:56Andy Greenwald:But this is something that's hard to articulate, but that we try to talk about on the podcast too, which is the best things can only happen when there's space to discover them. You know, if you went in with like a color palette before you even cast all the parts or before you got on set or met the directors, it's going to hold it captive, right? You discovered this. It's the worst and best part of doing a show because you feel so scared to be like, I don't know. And I do think like as a showrunner, it's taken me a long time to be able to say I don't know or to say that's a place where I can let other people find it and then go with what their vision is, you know.

52:33And I think your job is like to have a vision, to communicate it, and then to give people the space and the safety to bring their own work to it. And it took me a very long time to figure that out.

52:44Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I'm still figuring it out. No, you're getting there. I gotta say. We have to talk about Lola Petticrew. The last time I think I saw them was in Say Nothing, which is an incredible show that I think was underseen. Even if it was well seen, it was still underseen. Yes. I think it's an incredible achievement. and they're bringing to life a historical figure from very young age to some pretty hard experiences. Yeah. Nothing in that performance gave me the slightest sense, other than the power of their ability, that they could do this. How did you find Lola, and what was the process like to discover Catherine?

53:24I mean, we auditioned a lot of people, and amazing actresses came in, And Lola just has this ability to scare the shit out of you and break your heart at the same time. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, and it's like, I was like, how are you going to cast this part? Emmy's more a positive person. And I'm always like, we're not going to be able to find it. We're not going to be able to do it. And then we saw Lola and it was like, they captivated all of us, scared us. and also you feel for Catherine. And that, I was like, to go on an eight episode journey with a serial killer, I'm like, you can't, you can't be, you know, you have to feel, you have to have feelings about this person rooting for them at some level and then also just genuinely believe that they could kill people.

54:17But Liz's writing is so strong that there, even though Lola was like the slam dunk obvious winner and the performance is incredible, I would say there were so many people that audition that were so strong because the strength of the material is such that it's so bold. Even for Nora, even for the Danny McCarthy role. Like, I just think that when the scenes are that strong, you're watching these audition tapes and you can't stop watching them.

54:43Andy Greenwald:There's no small parts only or something like that. Butts? There's no small butts allowed. No small butts allowed. BBL, the series, coming soon from Hulu. I'm 12 years old. This is what I'm realizing. But just that like, the Danny McCarthy, I keep coming back to him because it's like, that part could have been a zero. And instead the part is a 10 out of 10. Like I'm so excited to see him. He's so weird. He's so funny. And with Scoot has his boot on his face. Yeah, that's so great. There's just, everything is an opportunity. Like you were saying, a small choice can become something quite memorable.

55:18Andy Greenwald:There's a larger point to be made. And I'm probably, this is probably the least correct podcast to make it about how, I think you alluded to it. I mean, like how deeply female the show is and how the perspective at every moment in the show is of a, it's not a secret language, but it is a female language that the female characters understand about what happens when you walk into a room, who they're looking at, what they're looking at, how they are being seen. And the men are essentially clueless about all of it. Maybe Alden is the one person who understands a little bit of it because of his disability.

55:47Andy Greenwald:This is the most cliched and I'm embarrassed to even ask it question after that preamble, which is now I want to ask about the fellas. Sure. Let's ask about the bros. Come on. Let's do the dudes. But sincerely, though, this is the show. This is the language of the show. Right. Jake Lacey and Scoot McNary are in the show as different avatars of masculinity and play different roles in Alice's life. I was curious about the process of casting those parts and then specifically Emmy working with them so intimately with such different emotional language. within the large archetype of Alice lives in this world, not necessarily their world.

56:26Andy Greenwald:Did I get there? Yeah, totally. I think I pulled a muscle to that one. Sorry. No, I mean, Liz had watched this doc called A Better Man. Everybody should watch it, except it's not available, which is like the, you know. Isn't it on YouTube? I spent$50. It was$50 to rent, and I was like. You should figure out how to get it out there. Yeah, it's so good. It'll be my next job. It's an incredible documentary about a couple that is meeting up to talk about their relationship, which ended years ago, that was very abusive. And it's about how they're meeting now, how they're both remembering it. It's very heartbreaking.

57:02It's very human. And I didn't feel like when you sent that to me, it blew the doors open on my ideas of what violence and relationship really looks like. And I think Liz has crafted such an interesting portrait of this relationship between Alice and Marshall. This relationship has lasted 25 years. He was at moments an oasis, a family, a lover, a co-worker, a trusted person to watch her back on the street and then became something that was violent and controlling and manipulative. And you need an actor that can not just play the bad guy. Because when you watch this. It's too easy. Yeah. It's too easy to be the bad guy.

57:47It's also just not the way it is. And it does a disservice to the women, too. Yes, yes. To not see their experience and their confusion and their complicated feelings about those relationships. So you needed an actor that could bring that. And Jake is just a class A actor. He is funny. He is vulnerable. He is strong. He's powerful. He's scary. And he's also just like the nicest dad ever. So when you're doing these scenes with him, we just trust fell into each other and we had an intimacy coordinator at all times with us. And we really felt that we could build the understanding of this relationship.

58:31I would say the whiskey waterboarding scene was definitely the one that we were just both the most stressed about. Yeah. And we got the time on the stage in days prior to kind of do the blocking and work it out with our director, Destiny. And Liz was there and the coordinator was there. And, you know. You were both just so open and fearless and taking care of each other. Yeah. Because it's like you're shooting stuff like that and it's like it's tough. You're going to these hard places and you need to kind of take care of each other. and Jake was an amazing partner in that way. I mean, it was just really important.

59:04Everything Emmy said, it was just so important to show that character as a human being. I think it's so easy for people, especially nowadays, to make things black and white, to say, this is a bad person, this is a good person. And I never wanted the show to allow people to make those kind of calls. And also, people blame women for staying. People don't, or they don't understand why women stay in these relationships. And there's so many reasons why, economic reasons, emotional reasons. And the justice system, again, kind of like wants people to like very clearly say this person did something wrong.

59:41This person is a victim. And these relationships are so complicated. Anyway, so I just I think like Jake had when I spoke to him before we cast him, he just understood that, you know, he just really understood that. And now I think he's like, can I please play a good guy? But no, I mean, it was – and Scoot is like – And Scoot's incredible. Incredible, yeah. He has like a – he's just so real. I don't know. Like I feel like he's like – he's just one of those actors that just like sits in it, lives it, you know. And like he has this quiet – there's so much depth there. He's just quiet depth, which is so fun because I don't because you don't have to write a lot.

1:00:26You know, it's like his face says so much. He does great face acting, as they say. Yeah. He's just got a deep well of empathy, too. And he walked that line between right. Neither of these men are perfect either. Scoot's character, Danny, has a difficult time loving Alice with the history that she has with the that's not her fault. He can't he wants to save her. She doesn't want to be saved. and he is having a difficult time holding her trauma. And I think that that isn't something I've seen before. The effects, the aftershocks of years ago trauma on a woman's partner. That to me is a fascinating dynamic.

1:01:10And also his character, I sat with a NYPD homicide detective or former homicide detective for about an hour named Mike Habert. and just he you think of a NYPD detective as like you know talking a lot or I don't know you know like Dennis Franz I don't know but like he had this quiet this quietness and he's he says like some of I took some of the things he said but like my job is to listen my job is to let people talk

1:01:45Andy Greenwald:or to see the worst things no one should see it's my job And to kind of like hold that for people. And that, it was such an interesting, amazing conversation because I was like, that character made sense to me then. It was like, okay, this is a man who like does look at the worst thing and can sort of take it. He can take it and he sits with it and he, you know what I mean? So like, it was interesting to me that we think of law enforcement as like action packed. I think because of a lot of TV shows. I mean, again, I understand why things need to be action-backed. Those are good shows. Yeah, those are great shows.

1:02:23But I do think there's a kind of like, they hold back because they want you to do the talking. They want you to reveal yourself, you know. I thought that was really interesting.

1:02:32Andy Greenwald:We're so bad at ambiguity. I just feel like culturally these days. And so the whiskey waterboarding scene, I mean, there is so much history on screen in that moment and so many crisscrossing wires of wants and needs. And who are we as the audience? Who are we rooting for? And what games are we playing with each other? Yes. And where's the line for that's okay? You can be a victim up to this point. I mean, that's kind of the show's thesis. How do you guys then, as the creative leads of the show, hold space for that throughout? How do you get the directors who come on, the guest stars to come on, the writers in the writer's room to understand that we are going to, it might be easier to lean one way or the other, but we are going to try to sit in this uncomfortable spot because I think that's really the triumph of the season yeah i mean just to go back to the kind of femaleness of the show versus the fellas okay guys we can take five

1:03:28we're the fellas sorry um say more about that no i i that i think what was kind of fun and this does go into your question what was fun sort of and i set out at the from the beginning with all the designers who are incredible people incredibly talented was just how do we look at like what does female violence look like you know and and i think that waterboarding scene is an interesting example of you kind of bring him close to you and then you do it and i think that katherine does the same thing like that female violence all the violence in the show is coming from a place of intimacy it's coming from a closeness like these aren't characters who are like shooting at each other from far away it's like if you're going to kill someone it's going to feel almost like uh like any kind of violence is going to feel like a sex scene and you know in a lot of ways so that was like something that we spoke a lot about and just um the idea of like the raw chicken and the curling iron curling iron you know like these like kind of female like cooking and tool you know And that was just a fun kind of like thing to say is our North Star a little bit in those meetings and kind of think about like, how do we go about this in a different way and in a, you know, quote unquote female way.

1:04:50Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I think that even if you're lucky enough to be ignorant about some of the realities or lived experiences of trauma or trafficking and things, even understanding or learning to understand that Catherine is using her body, but she's using it as opposed to being used to get closer to people, is at first, you know, it's uncomfortable. It's surprising and it's jarring. But the show continues to follow that path in a way that at least in my mind felt honest about experiences. did I answer that question because I feel like I you mean like how do we do you want to run a pack no guys we need to take five talk more about the fellas it was cool to hang out with the guys though right sorry guys right they're the best I mean they're just pretty cool hangs uncomplicated you guys watched the game last night no I think that you did I think that because this is I mean, even talking about you guys were the captain of the ship.

1:05:48Andy Greenwald:And so if this is what interested you, if this is how you wanted to see these familiar things subverted, expressed. Well, it's also interesting because I'm in the season two writer's room. And I think like our brains are so wired for female victimhood as a way of creating stakes in situations. Where can I put this empathy? Oh, I'll put it with her. Yes. And so I think it was like I had to always check myself throughout of like, you know, are we? like I don't ever want to feel too sorry for somebody you know I want to kind of like keep all the characters tough and sort of spiky and like that I don't want sympathy you know what I mean like I don't want the characters to be like people that feel sorry for them so that was like I did feel like I had to check myself and I am checking myself a lot in the writer's room of like that speech that Nora gives at the in the first episode about everyone loves it when there's a little naked, I don't know naked, but dead girl cutting pieces.

1:06:47Why did I put naked in there? I don't know. She's usually naked too. I got to think about that. Yeah.

1:06:51Andy Greenwald:Yeah, but in that finale, Ed's like, it was just one dead girl. Yeah. It's the inversion of that same thing. Yeah, I love that moment. And in his moral calculus. Takes my breath away. I didn't. And she was probably going to die anyway. I had cut the part about pinging on him because I was like, this is insane. I can't put this on the show. And then I told... I'm pissing at you where it's raining down. You need an umbrella. And I told Corey Finley, who directed the finale, did such an incredible job. But I was like, we were laughing. I was like, oh, you know, I'd actually put this thing about like him peeing on him in there.

1:07:18And he was like, put it back in. He's like, what are you doing? And I was like, another North Star was kind of like, we never want to be exploitative of female pain and trauma for story purposes. Like, it's like, and it's so easy to kind of fall into that trap, I think, because it's so, it's a part of our storytelling language. It feels familiar. Yeah.

1:07:42Andy Greenwald:As an audience, I'm sure, as people noting it, I'm sure even in a room, you could be like, well, at least that's taken care of before the other 100 problems pop up. Oh, you feel sorry for her. Okay, great. We got a feeling. Got it, yeah, yeah. We got a feeling back. We got a feeling. Feelings check. Let's go back to being fellas. Come on. Hey, guys. I'm sorry. Why am I attacking you? You're really nice to have me on. No, no, I deserve it. It's fine. It's good for me. Am I furious? I can't tell. All these women are mad at me. Oh, my God. Okay, so, Emmy, I'm going to ask you this because I think Liz has a complicated relationship to this question, but what are you excited about for a season two of this show?

1:08:18Andy Greenwald:And if you'd like to take notes, Liz, that's fine, too. No, I've texted Liz so many pitches, some of which gets thumbs up and some of which gets no response. And I can take a hit. Some get left on read. Yeah. I think she has her deliver messages off, so I'll never know. That's good. I'm like Christopher Nolan. Someone has to print it out for me. Fellas, did you get my email? She's analog. I'm excited for what Alice does with this big secret. Yeah. Right? Some of her secrets have been exposed. And now, spoiler alert, she's killed someone. Yep. And I think the way that Liz set that up in that last episode with the misdirect and how it's revealed in the last seconds, it's so powerful.

1:09:00It's so well done. It's so fun.

1:09:01Andy Greenwald:It's the best kind of misdirect where it makes sense and you kind of knew, but you weren't sure. You're like, oh, that's kind of like, I guess he just died. I guess he did die peacefully in his bed. Okay, well, I guess that's... I guess they made that choice. I guess they... Feelings uncheck. Okay. but Alice is really good at burying things and really good at keeping secrets so I'm really interested to see how that affects her I'm interested to see kind of you know what happens with Danny now that he has been you know taken he's decided to step back he doesn't want to look at things anymore and her eyes are wide open yeah and Nora's like you gotta look I'm also obsessed with the interpersonal dynamics between Choi and Nora and Yara with the baby and Al.

1:09:48She had a baby. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. Got a lot of boredom. I had a full head of hair. A full head of hair, though. Oh, I love Robbie. I really love Robbie. He is so funny. And I am excited to, I'm just excited really for whatever Liz can cook up and any of my text messages that get thumbs up acknowledgments.

1:10:07Andy Greenwald:You'll feel good about that. If left to my own devices, it'll just be like an office comedy. Great. in the basement. Great. With her all... But when he kneels down also, when Nora is hiding... That's my favorite. And she doesn't even have a shoelace. And he's like, oh, I thought you wanted me to... Did you not want me to... Are we down here doing this? He's willing to do anything. This just makes me so happy. Yeah, I mean, I'm so happy that we're doing another season. I want to say that. Can I get another read on that line? One with tears. I'm so happy. Here you go. I'm happy. You're in this camera.

1:10:41Thank you, Hulu.

1:10:43Andy Greenwald:For your consideration, Liz Merriweather. Obviously, we're so lucky to get another season. It's just, it's hard. I've been doing limited. I did, you know, two limited series before this. And I remember the experience of New Girl. I remember the kind of like excitement of the first season. And then you're like, you're like, okay, we got to keep doing it. And it's, you know, it's just like, there's, I just never want to like let people down. And it's just kind of like trying to, but. I think whenever I go to my deepest, darkest, most anxious places, I come back thinking about the characters because I love these characters.

1:11:21I love Alice. I love Nora. I love Danny. I love the whole world of it. And so I just get excited to be like, well, what are they up to? Like, what are those crazy cats up to? And kind of like that calms me down when I get really nervous. But I think that's what's so special about Liz's work is because it always starts from character. interest in psychology interest in dynamics it never starts from here's a cool thing that could happen right plot comes from character characters choices and that's why i think it feels so able to you're able to understand all the choices people make you're like you're never like oh well that would never that person would never do that because it's built from that and that's why i think liz's work is really hitting and appealing to the actors too and why we feel like we can go so deep within it.

1:12:08Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I think that also it's just you've done both now and you, you know, the first season is what it is and you can't, I think it's almost like fool's gold to try to chase. There's another case that Alice is also a victim in and hunting and it's all, you know, you've done that and so now what is next for it, right? Like it becomes a different show and maybe that's a good thing. I had an interviewer last night because we did an event and he was like, I really felt like he was the voice in my head. Like he was like, you must feel a lot of pressure. No, he did not. I was like, please stop talking, sir.

1:12:43Andy Greenwald:That's fun. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I don't, I, you know, fortunately and unfortunately there, there are a lot of, um, areas we can go into about, you know, sex crimes, trafficking, um, violence against women. So, you know, that's another thing that kind of keeps me going is that there's, there's so many stories that need to be told and um yeah i don't know to tune tune in uh do people still say that because it's like on the computer now yeah they say it okay you're not like adjusting your tv antenna maybe someone is i think that's okay i just love that you're the new dick wolf you're just like you're just the king of new york crime shows i really i do i said i said this to you before the podcast but i was like there were definitely moments where i'm like how did i get myself in a situation where I'm writing multiple seasons of a crime show.

1:13:34Like I just, like, as I said, I would be so happy to write the office comedy version of this show. It's just like Nora running upstairs.

1:13:44Andy Greenwald:You're going to have to send more texts. I think. I know. I think I actually need more texts from you. Okay. I'm happy to. Guys, thank you so much. Thank you. It's a pleasure to see you both again and talk to you. And really the show is an incredible achievement. and thanks for sharing it with us. Thank you. Thank you so much. Come back for season two. I can't wait to see how excited you're going to be great. I'm excited. There's going to be lots of snacks jokes. I know that. Just cheese balls. Yeah, lots of snacks jokes, lots of Doritos jokes. When in doubt, let's throw some eating into a scene.

1:14:11We always do and that'll be great. Yeah, and maybe some fellas. I don't know. Maybe some fellas. Let's get the fellas in there. I don't want to lean too hard on that,

1:14:17Andy Greenwald:but I do think there's some opportunity there. Some more fellas and some more snacks. Like, what are these ladies so furious about? Huh? That guy. That guy's gonna kill. Just light pitch that character now. We cut five minutes ago, right? Thanks.

1:14:42I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX's The Bear. The restaurant is flooded.

1:14:54Andy Greenwald:Everything's either going to be okay or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. We have each other. FX is the Bear, the final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney+. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.