Gail Simmons on the ‘Top Chef’ Season 23 Finale! Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 9.

23:36The interesting thing to me also is that like, you know, when I started this episode and it said it was 31 minutes, I was like, well, this is either going to be one of the great 31 minutes of my life or it's what I think it is, which is essentially part one of the finale.

23:47Andy Greenwald:That's right. That's what it was. And if it ends quite. Oh, here we go. And if they had put like this up as a one hour finale and it's a nine episode season, I think I would have been deeply satisfied. But it just so happens that they that they extended it. what were some of the other things that jumped out at you about this episode aside from the death of our favorite mushroom dealer the shaman I mean it's a bummer I hope they find him in a tree yeah I was thinking that too when they made the show and they hired Chris Fleming to play this one small part they were probably like man this guy's great who can we in the Simpsons-esque Springfield cast of characters that we've already created who can we sacrifice to the vengeful tornado gods he was a pretty funny option, especially because he wouldn't leave his socks because he said he needed them.

24:35Andy Greenwald:But to your point, like the moment when they made the show essentially in a bubble of their own enthusiasm and good spirits and creativity versus now when people genuinely, not just us, love it. Like, I don't know if they would make the same decision. Like let's burn this ascendant comedian's funny side character, but that's the freedom of what's to come. and part of the fun of watching the show has always been watching it for purely what it is then also admiring the construction behind it and part of the construction behind it that I'm watching now is what is their plan to resolve the show because I 100 % believe that Katie and Hero took nothing for granted and will resolve aspects of the story like does it end with Tom and Evan at a Red Sox game?

25:21Andy Greenwald:Maybe. But there are legs here and they're somewhere else for this to go. So the question is, what's it going to be? Do you think this is going to be the only season of the show? No. I don't have insider knowledge, but I just deeply... I don't either, but I wonder if they had known what a sensation it would become if they would have had this storm hitting in the end of the first season. I think they would in the sense that she knows... I mean, again, I think we're going to get a chance to talk to her about it, and it's not fair to reduce anyone to their influences, but it's interesting watching this as such an incredibly successful distillation of serialized storytelling and episodic storytelling from someone who is a veteran of parks and recreation, which was so good at managing the line between the two, who then went on to write movies.

26:05Andy Greenwald:And knowing that you've got to leave it all on the table and tell your full story. Then there's a third piece. What do you hold on to? Where do you go next? And I was thinking about this show's just, at this point, seemingly effortless ability to transition between what you were saying, serious emotional reckonings between the characters who are 100 % the same characters they've been in every episode. Patricia, the one who's sitting there being concerned or wanting to protect Tom or wanting to move things along is the same woman who just tased a lady having a wine club meeting. Yes. That's still the same person.

26:40Andy Greenwald:But so, a show that can manage the reality of them as well as the surreality of them episode to episode, but then also, I don't know, I'm getting lost in the sauce of my own analogy. No, I know what you mean. It's like they can have repeatable like TV bones, but they can be put into like almost movie scenarios, right? And what I was thinking about when I was watching them just do this, it can be broad, it can be specific, it can be light, it can be dark. I was thinking about The Bear, which is coming back at the end of the month in just a couple weeks at this point. And I was thinking about the genuinely organic, beautifully thrilling excitement of the first season in which we were looking at characters who were seemingly capable of everything also in a show that was able to straddle multiple tones, despite what the, the, the hacks lobby would have, would have you believe the bear season one was hilarious and impossibly tense, you know, and the inevitabilities of long form storytelling, maybe when you didn't intend for there to be long form storytelling, it wears on shows, it wears on characters, they become less elastic.

27:48Andy Greenwald:So I'm not saying that's what's going to happen here but i was really present in appreciating what's capable right now yeah i mean there's i i guess i i would assume based on what i know about the moral world of the show that there will be a wrinkle to the ruth storyline they're not going to kill an old lady next week yeah i don't think i mean i think that honestly i would say steven root has been remarkable on this show and for as much as i admire kato flynn and matthew reese's performances steven root is that part could go wrong like that part could be like way too much yelling at clouds way too much like this guy wouldn't be fit nobody would let him into a restaurant or nobody would want him and like he he kind of like embodies like a worn out weathered truth sayer in this series and um i certainly really hope he continues on because he's such a wonderful addition to the show.

28:47But I'll be fascinated to see. I mean, presumably they're going to traverse across an island to go find Ruth with a giant tornado streaking across it.

28:58Andy Greenwald:Steven Root, we don't talk about enough because he's like woven into the American television fabric to a degree that is almost supernatural. Yeah. But if you think about, like the first time I became aware of Steven Root as an actor was watching news radio. when he takes a part that within two or three appearances, you're like, well, no one else can play this part. This is so, so deeply, deeply specific and so remarkable that I can't, but I also can't say that as a 19-year-old, I was like, it's a generational actor right there. I was like, that guy's really funny. But you think about how, at least in three cases, and I imagine if I did a deep dive on his filmography, there maybe would be more to pick out, but news radio, but particularly recently with Barry and with Widow's Bay, the television shows do not work without Steven Root.

29:46Andy Greenwald:I'm not saying they wouldn't be well written, but if Steven Root isn't playing the part he plays on Barry, the way that he plays it in a way that only he can, and specifically here with Widow's Bay as well, which is everything he does is so knowing and broad and clever and comic, but also so soulful and technically precise that the show doesn't work. It just, I mean, I can't imagine there was anyone else on their wish list. I mean, it's also like he's been doing this for 40 years. Yes. But yeah, I forgot that he was Judge Mike Reardon on Justified. He was on Good Wife. He was on Boardwalk Empire.

30:25He is in the newsroom for two episodes. He's on Fargo for two episodes. I mean, it's just such an insane... One sneaky thing is that I know the Coen brothers are celebrated.

30:41Andy Greenwald:But I don't know if we - Seven episodes of Perry Mason with Matthew Rhys, which I wonder if that's where that relationship started. But do you feel like the Coen brothers get enough credit for telling us about people? Like it was the Coen brothers, like I know that like John Goodman was like a great, he was a great theater actor and everyone was like, wow, this guy's really got the sauce. But the Coen brothers, like when they see someone who can do what they want, they're telling us something about - Is this first one with them a brother? Who? Stephen Rue. I think so. But I just mean when people like Stephen Root start showing up, even in the later movies, you're like, oh, that's a guy who can do this?

31:14Andy Greenwald:Yeah. In the tradition of a Turturro or a John Goodman, or a Michael Stuhlbarg, there's a specificity of the type of performer that is basically telling you, Tim Blake Nelson, like, oh, these guys can pretty much do anything and should be working twice as much as they do, and they already work quite a lot. what do you think of the Bashir plot line, the late introduction of his wife and this pregnancy that needs to, that also has like a degree of urgency because before it was just like, oh, wouldn't it be nice if Evan could get off the island and blow off some steam, go to college maybe. And now it's like, well, they all know that if you're born here, you're doomed.

31:53So there was like this push to get Bashir's wife off of the island from Patricia. Yeah. And now it's like, you know.

32:00Andy Greenwald:And the wick scene there is great. What's the plan here? with the boats. That's great. That boat came here on a boat. Great line. It was a great line. Yeah. I think that there is an element of engineering to good television writing and to show running and the ability to be deeply within the characters and within the script to write funny jokes or have some kind of consistency is one thing. But to also be able to step back with some perspective and say, you know what, this is actually a load-bearing wall and we're going to need to shore it up a little bit. And the show could work hurtling towards a finale, hyper-focused on the three leads and what freedom might mean for them from this curse.

32:37But it works a lot better

32:40Andy Greenwald:if there's like a ticking baby clock of a future generation that could be saved. More than, because like what are the, again, we're thinking about what are the stakes for all these characters and we understand deeply Evan's unfortunate life and his limited claustrophobic existence and like why he wants to act up and get out. But the stakes of him living essentially well enough for 17 years without going to a Red Sox game doesn't hit as hard as this young couple, the young family anyway, like who don't really want to be here will be cursed to live here forever. It just hits different. It's just smart engineering.

33:16It really is. I cannot wait for the finale. Hopefully we'll have Katie on to discuss it next week. I will leave you to the rest of the episode.

33:23Andy Greenwald:What do you think I'm going to do? This is exciting. At this point, decisions will have been made. Announcements, introductions will have happened. Do you have any crystal ball predictions for what I've already said about you, about how I feel about you, about how I feel about you not being here? This is why I listen, you know? That's why I don't. Thanks to Kaya and Kaya. We'll be back on Monday with some combination of wonderful television talk. You'll just talk to me about Cape Fear. That's right. Snoring? Gasping during sleep? Feeling fatigued? Ask your doctor about ZepBound, Terzepatite, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity.

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36:28Andy Greenwald:I am so happy to be joined yet again. I don't know if this is the third year or the fourth year. At least. We feel lucky every time we get to do it. We are joined by the executive producer and judge of Top Chef, our official favorite Canadian, Gail Simmons. Welcome back to the watch. Thank you so much. I always love talking to you. I am really excited to talk to you. We have a lot to cover for season 23. We have some good, we have some bad, and we have some, not ugly, but some curious. Less attractive, perhaps, but also really interesting. Fascinating, if I may. So I do think we should start where we just ended, which is the finale.

37:03Andy Greenwald:Sherry, Lawrence, and Rhoda are our final three. And I wondered if you could give some insight into how much time, because it did feel like, again, I may be wrong about this, that there wasn't a gap this year between there wasn't a gap that's right because we didn't travel for our finale as we usually do um we went right through all in the carolinas and you know i was actually very mixed about that from a production standpoint when they told us that that was the schedule we had to keep to i brought it up several times uh with our showrunner donnie and who i also worried that usually our chefs get a reset.

37:43You know, they get two weeks or so between the bulk of the season and that last, let's say two to three episodes to get back to their life, um, rest, recoup, get their creative juices flowing again, craft this final menu. Uh, they got none of that this time, but the flip side was that they just were running. You know what I mean? they didn't stop. And then there's kind of a lull and you forget the, and you're not sort of in the moment anymore. And then you have to get back in the moment. So there's two sides to the argument. This is one of the first times, the only other time I can think of when we didn't take a gap was during the pandemic when we were in Portland, Oregon.

38:27But you know what? I think it worked. I do. I think that their menus were what they would have been either way. And I think that the final three were just sort of plowing forward. They were in a zone. They were, as they said many times, locked in.

38:42Andy Greenwald:Yeah, much like the New York Knicks. There's something to be said about being streaky. That's right. The only thing I really missed was the hairstyle glow up that we often get from the contestants. Yes, that's true. That was a shame. That's true. I was willing to overlook it. We tried to give you some ourselves. You guys look great. Tom especially. Tom especially. I mean, I Googled. He's had a glow up. Tom looks amazing. I did Google Tom Colicchio ear piercing midway through the finale, which which I've been informed of the Internet was not debuted in the finale, but it sparkled. But it was this season.

39:15Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Incredible. Tom does funny things when he goes away. Like it makes me love him so much just as a side conversation. Sure. You know, I think he just gets a little bit like loose and doesn't he's not focusing on the restaurants as much. He's not as stressed perhaps. Um, and he, you know, when we were in new Orleans in season 11, he went out one day just before the finale too, we had a day off and he was missing his sons. They were much younger than, and he went out to Frenchman street and got a giant tattoo out of nowhere. First tattoo he'd ever had. And he was like over 50. He just decided that day that he wanted a tattoo and he got a giant tattoo of his son's names on his arm in this beautiful script and like came back really casually the next day to shoot.

40:00And I was like, what the F is that? But he was just like, yeah, just felt like it. And since then he's had like eight tattoos. But then on this season, he walked into the set one day with new ear piercings. Actually, to be fair, apparently he had them or at least one of them before from years and years ago and they closed up and he was like, I was in a mood. I went and got my ears pierced.

40:21Andy Greenwald:Restaurant people. I love that for him. Yeah, love it. You take them out of the restaurants, but they still have that energy. Yeah, I know. So with the lack of a break between the penultimate episode and the finale, what opportunity did you and Tom and Kristen have to discuss what you expected? Is that even a worthwhile question? Did you expect certain things coming into the finale? And were those expectations met or subverted in any ways with what was actually served? um you know we only talk about it to a certain extent because you can't put expectations on them in that way you have no idea what they're going to do I mean you have some idea obviously of eating their food through the season you know the direction we knew that Lawrence was going to pull from Chinese American roots we knew he was gonna you know he knew that trajectory We knew that Rhoda had been starting to really show us this beautiful Filipino home cooking, elevated.

41:19We knew that Sherry would bring in the skill and technique she had from the restaurant she worked in with her Brazilian background. We knew the generals, but I don't think you can ever expect. And I think when you do have too much expectation, you're largely disappointed, right? Because they need to show you who they are. You can't, you can't force on anyone, but certainly not on a chef in this creative outlet, um, what you want them to do. You know, it's like children, you need to meet them where they are. And so that was a weird metaphor, but you know what I mean? You really, you can't, there's just no way of knowing where they're going to pull from, where their inspiration is and what is meaningful to them.

42:01And that's the beauty, I think, of the finale that we finally released them from all of the parameters. And finally, after, you know, 13 episodes of making sure they cook us exactly what we want in these very narrow terms, we let them just show us what they can do. And I find whenever I do really discuss it in advance or have expectations, which I have had over the years, I'm disappointed, truly. I'm like, oh, it's never as good as I want it to be. There was a technical error here. But it takes all the joy out of them just cooking from the heart, right? And it's not about being perfect sometimes.

42:39It's about sort of showing us themselves and pushing themselves and giving us a piece of who they are. And I want that to be soulful and meaningful and delicious more than I want it to be this like fussy perfection. Does that make sense?

42:58Andy Greenwald:Yes. And then I think you got what you wanted, because I think at least from an audience perspective, this was a quite imperfect finale in terms of it was. I was struck by and I wonder if there's any aspect of this that can be credited to the lack of break, like just some pretty fundamental temperature plating cooking method decision making errors that left you guys with what seemed like. I couldn't tell honestly I couldn't tell ultimately if this was an incredibly hard decision because everybody kind of messed up or if ultimately it was an easy decision because one person didn't mess up as egregiously as the other two on the technical things both it was a hard decision it was a hard decision because all of them did at least one thing that we absolutely loved that we couldn't stop thinking about that really blew us away and all each of them also had something of a flaw along the way, if not more.

43:57But all of their dishes, I think, were actually in some ways more ambitious than we often get in the finale. I think they used ingredients that we don't often see. I think they pushed themselves to sort of show us what they really could do that they've been holding back a little bit. It wasn't perfect. And I guess there's an argument we'll never really know to be made that they were tired because they were definitely tired. I mean, they were tired by restaurant wars. They're always tired by restaurant wars. But, um, the good thing is that it kind of doesn't matter because again, as we say all the time, it's greater on a bell curve.

44:44We're not comparing their dishes that night to dishes. they've made in the past to other chefs, to what I could get somewhere else. We're only comparing them to each other in this sort of bubble of a scenario. And across the board, they were all tired. They all had the same challenges. They were all up against the same timeline. So in a way, you just have to sort of clear your mind of like, what could have been, you know, the what ifs of if we'd given them a break or, you know, there were a moment or two of disappointment for sure about temperature, about cooking, doneness once or twice, you know, two or three dishes sort of stand out to me that way.

45:23But really, I think it was an even race. And we truly were sort of stumped at the very end of the meal. It was not obviously clear.

45:33Andy Greenwald:I actually think that the analogy you made towards meeting children where they are is very useful here, because I definitely found as a viewer this season, I mean, how could I not be comparing seasons to seasons, but But particularly, there was disappointment that I felt when I realized that, at least from a viewer perspective, having not tasted the food, none of the contestants were really elevating and transcending in a way that some of the legendary greats or even the more recent greats like a Buddha or a Tristan did. Buddha was made in a lab to destroy cooking competitions. Correct. But Tristan came out of, he didn't, Tristan didn't come out of nowhere, but his arc over the season was almost like scripted in the sense that, oh my God, the prince who was promised has been here the entire time.

46:15Andy Greenwald:Yes. And he's applying. And he built and built and built. And found a beautiful way to express his natural gifts through the prism of the challenges. Whereas someone like Lawrence, who I loved as a contestant, I imagine I would love as a person and whose food I would choose 10 times out of 10. Yeah. Stayed within his comfort zone, elevating, but within his comfort zone. He did. But I wonder how you are able to keep your focus on the specifics of the season you are judging without remembering what is possible within the framework you've created year after year. I mean, that's interesting because I think we've had seasons where we've thought that much more so, actually.

46:52In Wisconsin, I remember we thought that a lot. We had many more discussions about it. But what was interesting about this cast was, especially in the first five or six episodes, they all crushed it together on days that they crushed it. And they all flunked and flopped together on the days that they flopped.

47:09Andy Greenwald:They sure did. And it was a bit of a roller coaster that way. We couldn't figure out what was happening. But they were also, I don't know, they all played on each other really, really well. And there were certainly some really memorable challenges and really memorable dishes. And I don't know, I'm so used to just thinking about it the way that I described, that it is on a bell curve, that it has nothing to do with how Melissa King cooked or how Buddha cooked or how Tristan cooked or, um, you know, any number of, or Kristen Kish, exactly. Um, that all we have to do is think what was the best thing we ate today and what was the least best thing we ate today.

47:47Those are the parameters. And when, and that's part of why it's set up that way, you can't judge it like as a mark out of 10. It doesn't, it's not a science, right? It is, it is a craft and you need to think about it holistically. I think in the scenario you're in, you know what I mean? You can't compare it to, you know, it's, it's like sports. When we talk with us all the time, Annie, right? Like it doesn't matter how you played yesterday or how you could play tomorrow. It's how you played the game that day against the opponents who were there on the field. And I think that we have really trained ourselves to remember that along the way.

48:30And when we don't, we're reminded by each other. And most importantly, perhaps, we have a fourth judge at the table, sometimes a fifth, who have no context. And they are so vital to that process, to bringing us back to what is right in front of us and not worrying about anything else, because it doesn't matter. There's no way to judge it fairly if you bring in those factors.

48:50Andy Greenwald:I imagine the actual grind of production is incredibly intense. And so the opportunities to adjust are probably minimal, but are there producorial discussions mid season or post certain challenges about ways in which maybe you could nudge things in a direction to, to challenge, to surprise? Um, because you know, there, there are obviously producorial decisions in that direction made before the season. Like let's bring in a couple, let's bring in brothers Yes. And the casting, the casting, the potential conflict never happened. It was all very pleasant, which I like. We always talk, especially the quick fires, but there's always room for decision making that we talk through in the challenges.

49:28I mean, certain things are set the parameters, the theme, but we can adjust the time. We can adjust the ingredients. We can adjust certain factors because we are we are hit with real life scenarios all the time. You know, we cooked overnight for a barbecue challenge and right before we went to judge's table, there was a massive possible tornado cyclone hurricane situation. And, you know, we had to stop down and pivot and figure it out. And so that's extreme. But we definitely look at each challenge as we come to it because they are written before we start the season. And then we go into execution.

50:05And there's always a hold on a second. Can they do this? Are they as a group capable of pulling this off? Because we also don't want to give them something that then everyone's going to flunk and then no one looks good. But after episode two this season, which was our chili pepper challenge, we realized that, yes, they're capable. You know, they didn't do great in episode one and they didn't do great in episode three, but they crushed it in episode two. So we knew we could push them a little bit more than we were worried about. And push yourselves.

50:38Andy Greenwald:You filmed that inside what appeared to be a torture chamber. It was a torture chamber. It was 97 degrees. And we were eating ghost peppers for breakfast. Yeah, this is season 23. You don't have to do this. But you want to know what's interesting about that challenge that I keep saying? We ate that multi-course chili pepper meal. So we were hot. We were sweating because it was August in the Carolinas, but I ate some cucumbers along the way to cool my mouth, but it didn't blow us away. I was prepared. We walked in thinking, we're going to be in bed for three days, grabbing our bellies. And all of us were fine because they actually figured out how to use the peppers in such beautiful ways.

51:25They didn't blow us out at all. Even Rhoda, who won that challenge with her final course, which was the hottest possible pepper. We loved it. And we didn't love it in a way that's like, you love it and you're eating it and it's so good and so good. And then you stop for two seconds and realize that you're about to like feel over. We got there. We were fine. It was a shock to us all.

51:45Andy Greenwald:I'm genuinely, I respect, genuinely to them and to you guys. So you mentioned the lack of travel in the finale. And so that does bring up the elephant or maybe the peacock in the room, which is as a longtime viewer, I couldn't help but feel that there have been some budget trims over the years. And it felt, particularly this year, slightly claustrophobic. That there were a lot of in-studio challenges. That there were fewer opportunities to be out and about. Interesting. Last Chance Kitchen being trimmed by a number of weeks and only one contestant returning from it. just these smaller things on the margins up to and including in an episode that I think was rightly acclaimed.

52:31Andy Greenwald:I think there were two takeaways from the Asheville episode. One was, this is what Top Chef does best, connecting contemporary events, culture, emotion, family, storytelling, and food to also watching it and being like, they took a two hour drive and none of the judges and Kristen didn't come with them. And some of the restaurants, they just did a drive-by that felt small. Yeah, that's interesting. I let me just broadly, it's actually totally different. No, no, it's really interesting. You picked up on all those different things and you are right and wrong about them. Love it. First of all, we did just as many in studio challenges as we have done in the last five years.

53:08Okay. Uh, we have a mandate because we build a giant studio, uh, that we have to do what we do almost all our quick fires there. And we have to do, I think at least two eliminations there. I could be wrong. Like I can't have the con, you know, I don't have the details in front of me, but that's the same as we've been doing actually for the last several years that did not change. I actually felt like we were out in the most beautiful locations so much, but what did change is that usually, obviously this isn't a secret. We work very closely with the CVB of every city we're going to, right. With the visitors bureau and the, um, tours, you know, the tourism board, the city, the mayor, or the state.

53:53And this year, the Carolina stepped up in such a big way that that was their deal. They wanted the whole thing. Usually we don't, we don't sell them the whole thing, but they made a really compelling argument for being in different places and moving, you know, to probably Charlotte, obviously basing ourselves in Charlotte, but then moving to Greenville and doing three full episodes in Greenville and then a little bit in Asheville, but that was because there were different cities playing into it. And Charlotte and Greenville gave us 90 % of the support we needed. And Asheville, we wanted to do Asheville.

54:29That was us wanting to honor Asheville. Obviously, Asheville is known for so much of its culinary. It has an amazing dining scene for such a small place. And so we wanted to go to Asheville. So we did it the best we could because it really wasn't in the resources of what yeah um you know in as big a way as the other two places so we found a creative way to work ashville in and hurricane relief and speak to some of those chefs who we tried to get to come to charlotte and for other reasons weren't able to make it um so you know we had to use a budget creatively but it wasn't necessarily because it was trimmed that we didn't go on a finale it was just more that south that north carolina and specifically charlotte came to us with such a big plan.

55:15That's interesting. They were like, this is what we want to do. We want to keep it here the whole time.

55:19Andy Greenwald:I also think as I understand it, part of it is also, I think that, um, you know, there's, there's benefits to filming more regionally that are, that are exciting and seeing things we've never seen before. But I would also imagine it presents an issue in terms of scheduling and budget too, to then bring in recognizable chefs. You want to celebrate local, but you also want some bigger, for sure. All of the above. Yeah. But interestingly, when you mentioned last game's kitchen, that's a completely separate budget. Actually, it's a completely different show. It operates like its own show actually.

55:49So the changes with that definitely came to play, but that had nothing to do with the, with top chef proper that we were making. Um, so yes, there was a different sponsor, you know, there were sponsorship changes and, uh, And certainly they chose to make it a smaller show this year. But it has nothing to do with sort of like the bigger picture of Top Chef itself. That would have happened no matter what.

56:16Andy Greenwald:And I say this as a fan and someone who wants the show to be healthy. I was also concerned by the time slot shenanigans. Me too. And it felt like Kristen was too. Kristen was out there about it on social media. Because she gets heat for it and it all falls to her and us. I mean, because we're the ones who get yelled at by fans. But want to know something interesting? Yes, very much. It didn't matter. Now, it doesn't matter because the fans are the fans, or it doesn't matter because increasingly people are watching it on Tuesdays on Peacock anyway, and so 945 is abstract to them. Correct. It was a weird social experiment, and it annoyed us because we're all not Gen Z alphas, and we don't understand how TV works these days.

57:04But the proof is in the numbers, which is so interesting. And I wish I could get more specific. I just don't have that information. But the story is actually pretty amazing. It drove us nuts. And then also that same thing that always happens with social media, that the few people who are the loudest get the attention. Oh, yeah. But it turns out there's only a few of them, in comparison to the numbers we're seeing. So as frustrating as it is for me, because I want to say Monday's at 9. Yeah. and it moved 16 times, apparently everyone's really thrilled and it didn't make enough of a big difference to really be a problem, which I actually think is fascinating.

57:45Andy Greenwald:Yes, as a study in the, I mean, the show has straddled so many eras that it can continue to thrive and adjust and evolve is a good thing. Correct. Okay, so we have to talk about two specific moments, obviously. I did think that I was trying to, I was doing the TikTok, as in the clock, not the app, what went on here. And I think we can trace it all back to Chekhov's tire swing because from what I remember correctly, Jen swung on a tire swing right before showing up in the Carolinas, injured her shoulder, and then a lot of crazy stuff happened all because of that initial injury. Yes, correct. So she's injured.

58:19As I understand it as well. So she was injured.

58:21Andy Greenwald:She arrives slightly injured. She exacerbates the injury through repetitive chopping and doing all the things she needs to do as a cook. She sits out one or two quick fires. She is warned that we can't really accommodate this. She says, I'm going to stay, but then has to go due to an onset of what may have been Bell's palsy or something. It was Bell's palsy. Yes. I think I hope that. No, I think that was public. It wasn't on the episode. Which, by the way, is was related. But Bell's palsy is a whole other thing. And it's a virus. Right. As I understand it. And it's brought on. Not quite sure how.

58:55Stress.

58:56Andy Greenwald:I think stress. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, so she has to go. Justin, who has been eliminated, her partner, is offered the chance to stay. And he lovingly and generously says, I need to be with her. So he leaves. Now, what we learned, I think awkwardly this season, is that the last chance kitchen taping is not happening concurrently with the rhythm of the show. This is something that, you know, the magic of television. Yeah, we save them up. We save them up and do them in bulk. We didn't. Because we need a few people at a time. And we didn't know that. So what led to was a very, very strange, felt like cover-up situation briefly.

59:34Andy Greenwald:Oh, is it? That's funny. Well, only because we... You didn't know what was happening. We didn't know what was happening. So Seeger does not show up in Last Chance Kitchen. No one shows up in Last Chance Kitchen. The next week, Justin shows up in Last Chance Kitchen having determined that Jen is well enough for him to compete. He loses and Rhoda comes back eventually. But Seeger has already come back. Correct. any lessons to be learned here in really in regards to the last chance kitchen of it all or is this really a freak one-off in which a contestant is injured and everyone tried to do their best it was a freak runoff I mean it was it was just an unmitigated circumstance that we could have never anticipated the onset of what you know when we saw her suffering really that last day you could see that like beyond her shoulder her face was paralyzed and it was getting worse and worse.

1:00:27And we just had to call, I mean, you have to call it, right. We need you at what cost are you doing this to yourself? Right. And so as a organization, we have to say, it's time for you to take care of yourself. And, and then the sort of domino effect of, okay, well, what do we do now? It just was this, you know, that was the, the good and bad of bringing in a couple that by what are the chances that the last person who've been eliminated in that episode was Justin. And then did he want to stay or go? Well, he did, I think the right thing. And all of a sudden we had to figure it out because there was no footprint for this.

1:01:05There's no precedence. Um, it's, it was happening in real time. And I remember that night staying really late and Kristen staying even later to film that conversation with Justin to go in and tell him because Jennifer was at the hospital and we all sort of were waiting. I ended up going home and was waiting for Kristen to text me to tell me what was happening because we needed to know where the show was going to go. And Donnie, our showrunner was in touch with us all. And we were figuring it out as we went along. Um, so I, you know, I can't imagine it would ever happen again. Um, you know, we want, we wished we could have like shown more of her journey, but also there's only so much you can follow someone into an urgent care situation.

1:01:49Um, but, but we just want to make sure she was better and she is she has made a recovery we're glad about that um downstream of

1:01:56Andy Greenwald:this decision seager is eliminated is saved by a act of god dodges rota and last chance kitchen survives deeper into the competition makes chicken liver parfait in 90 degree heat that looks frankly deeply unappealing uh even to even to a viewer and then has an all-time crash out at judge's table something that we haven't seen on the show maybe ever and also kind of bracingly broke the seal of a very beautiful supportive genteel kind of vibe that has been cultivated over the last few years where everyone is supporting each other everyone is there to make friends and you know eliminations are tough but fair how shocked were all of you how much did we not see so uh where do we begin yes the chicken liver mousse was unappealing again that we are living uh and judge on a bell curve of what was the best thing we ate that day and what was the worst thing we ate that day under the circumstances of the challenge that were given and it was very obvious to us that although he had good intentions and there was good flavor it was not a successful dish for a few reasons.

1:03:16Um, you know, we know the chefs so peripherally in terms of their personal, uh, relationship to us. We had been hearing a little bit of grumblings. We caught kind of small whiffs of perhaps overconfidence, but he also had done some amazing things in the course of his trajectory on the show. I mean, yes, he got eliminated and there were a few clunkers, but there was also some really amazing moments for Seager. I think food wise, it was a surprise to us. I always say that I'm actually surprised it doesn't happen more often because it is very hard to take criticism. Even if we are trying to be constructive, you are on camera being told what you failed at.

1:04:07And that is an incredibly hard pull to swallow, no matter who you are. I mean, Tom always says you chose to be a chef, you will get reviewed in your career. That is the path you chose. If you want to be a restaurant chef, you will be critiqued. If you want to be an opera singer, if you want to be an athlete, if you want to be a dancer, a singer, an actor, you will be critiqued. That is the craft that you've chosen. I think what happened with Seeger was, you know, I'm still trying to process what happened with And truthfully, there was a lot you didn't see. There was a lot more conversation back and forth between all of us.

1:04:41But then you did see, you really saw, I think, the crux of what happened. He didn't understand from what I could take away why he was going home because he followed the challenge. He incorporated two or more ingredients from the Appalachian pantry. He made a dish that he finished. He made a dish. But what I don't understand is like someone has to go. And of all the things we tasted, like everybody was successful in doing that. Every single person used two or more ingredients. And every single person finished their dish and served us something great. And even if it was great, it was the least great of the five dishes that day.

1:05:23Andy Greenwald:I think the show has really thrived as it has steered away. And I say has steered away. This is like already 20 years old. But there's very little of the quote unquote reality show left. It is a very, very high-minded and supportive competition program. But that said, there are some reality elements, and eliminated contestants don't go home. So he's stewing around Charlotte somewhere, and then comes back for the finale. Was there any bumpiness or any friction that you perceived of? Was that ever an issue? Well, I was wondering the same thing. But he did calm down. And then in everything I've heard from Rhoda and seen on the final cut.

1:06:02And then I actually, this morning, was reading an interview with Rhoda about that exact question of how was it then cooking with Seeger, knowing what had happened in his elimination. She was like so thrilled to have him. And she knew he would show up for her. And he did. He cooked his heart out for her. He supported her. He executed as she needed him to. And they worked really, really well together. And they're really close. And in fact, I think he just flew to Hawaii to cook a dinner with her last night or over the last couple of days. so i think he was able to get over it i i wish i understood what his point was more like what was he trying to tell us i'm not totally sure i'm not going to give him his

1:06:41Andy Greenwald:flowers for being willing he was willing to fly to hawaii um no no i'm just saying that they are so close i'm just making the point that they are so close she invited him right so like they it worked all of these people are professionals they've worked with high you know hot-blooded No, but they are particularly close is what I mean. Even after this happening. Okay, so I have to call you guys in this and find out what's going on. There was some feeling that Nana should have gone home in the first episode for the ring mold, but I'm not on that camp. I loved that episode. I loved the way it demonstrated the evolving role of the judges, you guys in your pastoral role, especially Kristen and what she brings to the show.

1:07:20Andy Greenwald:And also Tom being like, I liked it more. Good for Tom. So I'm not worried about that. There was one elimination that still sticks in my craw, and I need to understand more about it. Oh, tell me. So, Rhoda is amazing at the top, falls to the bottom, Last Chance Kitchen. She boat races everyone. She kristens. She crescendos back in as a top-line competitor. Oh, I know. She walks back in, and her reward for winning Last Chance Kitchen in such a dominating fashion is to get shanked. No, that would be lamb shanked. shivved with dessert. Yes. Set up to fail. Does fail. Makes what is clearly, to the audience, the worst dish of the day.

1:08:02Andy Greenwald:And then Oscar goes home because he put rice on his plate. That felt a little... Terrible under... Hand of God a little bit. That felt a little... It wasn't. As I remember it, and again, it's so hard to remember it all. but and i try to remember it versus just pull from what the show showed you you know what i mean his dish the rice was terrible like the rice was legitimately not great and it should have been if if he was going to add something that was duplicative or redundant since his assignment wasn't to make rice is that correct so he added something he shouldn't have and the thing he added was bad but but you know it wasn't like there was no hand of god it was really just like again And sometimes when there's a few things that are sort of in the same, at the same level, and we have to make a decision, there's no, well, let's just not send anyone home or let's send do we go home.

1:08:56We go about it from different angles. And often it's, well, what would I rather eat again? And I would rather eat that dessert a hundred times over than eat what Oscar served us. It just wasn't successful. It wasn't delicious. Hers was a bit of a mess. It was, but it wasn't like there was nothing. sort of like bad tasting about it or texturally bad about it. It just wasn't skillfully put together.

1:09:23Andy Greenwald:Okay. I'll allow it. Plus she won and she deserved to be there. And I would have been angrier if she was gone, but I'm just saying. Yeah. Okay. So it's a good perspective. I like hearing all this stuff. It's very helpful. I've said this before. You should be a producer on the show. You should be audience producing. Give me a call. We, I have plenty of questions that we don't really have time for about just like You know, I like talking to you very much about the state of the industry as well as the way it reflects on Top Chef. So I think I can sort of consolidate that into one basic question, which is one of the beauties of the show over many years and now decades has been seeing the way the show has both led the industry and responded to changes in the industry.

1:09:59Andy Greenwald:And you can see changes from like the, you know, the dominating masculine brigade system to this beautiful moment when diners eyes and stomachs turn towards cuisines they may not have been familiar with. And the contestants reflected that. We are in a very, very strange and kind of dark moment, I would say, economically, certainly. I mean, generally, yes, but particularly for the restaurant industry at the moment. And here's a quote I want to give you from a recent interview in New York Magazine with Dan Kluger, who's a great chef in New York. Yes, I love him so much. And I love his restaurant.

1:10:35Andy Greenwald:Loring Place, which he is closing after 10 years. So here's the question and the answer. Here's the question. How do you operate in a place where you need to charge$50 for an appetizer that once cost$20? And Dan's answer, you don't, which is why we're closing. Correct. This is the moment that restaurants are in. I mean, three restaurants, major to me, important, vital restaurants to the lifeblood of New York City closed last week or planning or announced closure last week. Including Tom Colicchio's craft. Correct. So how can or how should Top Chef reflect this reality or how does the contestant pool reflect this reality?

1:11:17I think that your earlier question about budget constraints does reflect this reality, but there is still appetite for what we do. And we are so lucky that we can give our contestants the means to do it on our show. Our show isn't the real world, right? We know that, but we do pride ourselves in it reflecting real world circumstances of what it takes to run a restaurant or be a chef today. Obviously we are not including so many things. We give them the money they need. Obviously we do put constraints on it. They're never like, you know, I think it's not actually helpful to just say, Oh, you have all the money you need to buy caviar and

1:12:02Andy Greenwald:they get 2.5 % back also. Let's be clear about that. Correct. There's cash back. That's been mentioned. Wells Fargo. Thank you very much. Um, we love Wells Fargo, but we, you know, I do think that it is still a hard, it's still challenging, but what I think it allows people to do is to push themselves creatively to figure out what they can serve that still reflects who they are when you're not relying on the crutches of easy luxury. Yes. And I think that that actually is really important to the moment we're in. You know, I read an interview and for what it's worth, I'll send it to you after this call because I've sent it to so many people.

1:12:46It's actually, it was written by a chef in Toronto who I'm friendly with, who I was on Top Chef Canada with and whose restaurants we ate at a lot when we were shooting in Canada last season. And he's a chef I respect a great deal. And he wrote an article recently and what he said, like, I can't get out of my head and it's very similar to what Dan Kluger said, which is that he said the problem is that restaurant, and I'm paraphrasing, the problem is that restaurants are unable to charge the prices of what food costs. They have to charge what diners are willing to spend. And there is such a massive discrepancy between the two and diners have no idea.

1:13:38And if we really charge, if we, I do not run a restaurant for this reason, if restaurants really charge for profit margins, like that reflect the margins of any other industry in the world, no one would go to restaurants. Interestingly, if I may say, I am about to publish a book in November called Guesting, and it tackles this question in a big way in part of the book about how to be a good guest in all different scenarios. And much of the book is about going to people's homes and building community and the reciprocal relationship between host and guest. But a third of the book, sorry, a quarter of the book is dedicated to restaurants and how to be a good guest in restaurants.

1:14:17And it really breaks that down. Why we don't understand when we go to a restaurant that it is not just transactional. And in fact, we are getting nine times out of 10, an amazing deal. And let's act accordingly and let's respect and show grace for the people who choose to do this for us for a living, because it is, especially right now, financially, almost near impossible.

1:14:44Andy Greenwald:Well, I think also Top Chef has done a lot of great work and the contestants, particularly when they've left the show in educating people, not just on what the cost is financial, emotional labor, but also that there is such a profoundly in like just ingrained disparity between what we think should cost certain amounts of money. So seeing like what Kwame's done in New York with ingredients that maybe people weren't, or Paul Carmichael at Kabawa, right. Being like, yes, this is built on a tradition of things that you can get on the corner in Brooklyn, but we are elevating it. And there's like, you can pay for tortillas and you pay for even Chinese food Chinese food is I always say is and it goes back to a lot of things I mean there's so many layers to unpack here but you know the traditional cheap takeout right and that is xenophobic but it is also like ingrained in American culture in a way that has to change because we now know that so many of these cuisines are the great cuisines of the world and to do them well and with education and thought and with the best quality ingredients, those same best quality ingredients that we expect when we go to Le Bernardin or to Kraft, you have to pay for it.

1:15:58Andy Greenwald:But now what do we do about this moment where the first decade of Top Chef, it was clear, you win Top Chef, you open a restaurant in your hometown, and then you have a restaurant empire, and then you do whatever you want. Second decade of Top Chef, you win Top Chef, and you become a brand and you, you know, you, you consult and you, you work on yourself and you don't tie yourself to one place. You go work on the Food Network. Exactly. They give you a show or two. We are now in this era where we are in the fried chicken with, with a caviar era, right? Like that's all anybody wants to eat 1 % or 99 % and you put caviar on the fried chicken and you charge whatever.

1:16:32Andy Greenwald:And that's where we're at. What, what do we do with the, or who are the next generation of contestants and what are their ambitions? Because I think that I, again, I'm not faulting anyone, but to come on and be like, I am a ninja of, of, of execution and fine dining like Buddha. Well, what is the end game for that these days without a restaurant, the creativity of a Richard blaze or countless other contestants who I'm not really thinking of at this exact moment, but like, do they come in with that same creativity or are they just like, I live in the world as it is and my margins are what they are and i'm just no i think they come in with bigger aspirations and i think a lot of them come in i do because we always say like just keep cooking you know what i mean like keep your you win it's very easy to be distracted by the shiny lights and the sparkles of the caviar but if you stop cooking and i don't mean restaurant cooking is the only way to cook but if you stop cooking it's very hard to maintain that level of respect right in the industry.

1:17:34Um, but I look at so many successful chefs whose food I admire so much, Melissa King, for example, who markedly actually never had a restaurant for any of us to go to. Um, but she has managed to be relevant because she is so good at what she does and she is a creative and she's able to bring that to us in many different ways, whether it's to her book or pop-ups or, um, you know, any number of things that she, that she does travel the country, uh, collaborations. And I do think that there's a lot to be said for that. We all, they need to make a living number one. And I know for sure that it is easier for Melissa to make a living doing what she's doing.

1:18:18I'm just using her as an example than it is for most restaurant chefs who have one restaurant that they are not always, but often just like, you know, tied to day after day, just the financials. Um, she doesn't have a staff. She doesn't have a lease. Um, so, you know, I think that's reality and that doesn't mean that they're not chefs and that their experience and that their creativity isn't valid. I just think that we're going to see more of it because at the end of the day, people need to make a living wage and that sounds crazy, but also so simple. So any way you can do that while doing what you love is a gift, I think.

1:18:58And I think that there's just, we, we are a little traditional in that, you know, we're always like, just go back to the restaurant and put your head down and cook. That's not there. What's the, there's many ways to skin a cat. That is a weird expression, but you know, there's just so many ways. And I think we, we all will fall behind if we maintain only that thinking.

1:19:19Andy Greenwald:I mean, we're all Uber drivers now, Gail. Right. Me too. Right. Like I was a journalist. Like I, I worked at food, my magazine for 15 years. That's how I got this gig. And sometimes people ask me now, well, what do you do? Like a top chef only takes eight weeks of your year. What do you do? What are you? And I'm like, I'm still a journalist just because I'm not working at a legacy media company anymore. I'm actually doing way more. Um, and my platform has allowed me, I mean, being on top chef is reporting and research and exploration and giving voice to my industry. The books I'm able to write, the articles I'm able to write, the, you know, keynote speeches, the research.

1:20:04I still, you know, but it's just about thinking you can't be, you can't get stuck in how it was 20 years ago when I started this gig. You have to evolve. And I think the chefs have actually done a great job of that. That was a very long answer.

1:20:15Andy Greenwald:No, I find this fascinating. And it's part of, I mean, I think we touch on this in different versions every year we get to talk. Yeah. And it's, It stays relevant. It stays interesting. It'll be interesting to see what Rhoda does too, because she's at Auberge on the Big Island, which is gorgeous. And she's the chef there. And I hope she stays there for a while and shows, you know, because I think now people want to find her. But I also know, she said it herself, like who knows what her trajectory will be and where she wants to go next. And she's figuring that out. And I'm just really excited to see all of them.

1:20:46I adore them. I really do. I think they were a great group of chefs. but with rhoda in particular as our winner i think she will do something unexpected and beautiful and i think she'll really give a platform to the food that she loves just as tristan did truly um we'll

1:21:05Andy Greenwald:go we'll i'll let you go on this every year i do something that is unwelcome potentially and impossible which is i ask you to tease where you're going next and then inevitably you do a great job we can't figure it out and then like 48 hours later it's announced so there's this Beautiful little lacunae between that. And I wonder if you have anything prepared to tease us with. You know, I'm going to disappoint you this year because often I do know right around now. June is generally when we find out because we start shooting in August. But we are not shooting in August this year. We've been pushed back a little bit.

1:21:37Really only for scheduling. It's going to make a lot more sense to our year and our planning for the network, not just our own show. And that's a great thing. but it means that no one has told me anything.

1:21:51Andy Greenwald:This isn't like, that isn't a hint in itself. Like when they - It's not. I wish I had better info. All I know is that we will shoot, we will make another season. And that's all I care about. I still have a job, which is awesome. This isn't like the year - And every year it's the cherry on top. You know what I mean? You can't take it for granted. The year they delayed the World Cup just because it was in Qatar and they had to do it in the winter. This isn't that. This isn't Top Chef Middle East. You're not trying to give us a hint. No, we're not. No, but that is an amazing reference. Okay. But it is not dissimilar, but it is the truth.

1:22:22Andy Greenwald:Okay. All right. I'm going to trust you on that. Yeah. We're eager to find out when it's announced. Maybe it does. Maybe it will give you time to promote your book and maybe we could talk again more broadly about things then. Personally, it really allows, well, first of all, it allows all of us to have a summer for the first time in years instead of cutting it, you know, early and taking off from my family. and it's going to allow me a much easier fall because I'm launching my book and going on book tour. So that's like my own personal. And it's going to let us actually plan a couple of great things, I hope, to make sure that this season is the best it can be.

1:22:58Andy Greenwald:Well, I hope so too, as the unofficial audience consultant. Yes. Gail, thank you. You're always so generous with your time. Thank you. Another year in the books. You give me a lot to think about. Really appreciate it.

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