HBO’s Upcoming TV Slate, the Many Ghosts of ‘Industry,’ and ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ E3

8:55Jim Dycker:Yeah.

8:55Andy Greenwald:I mean, the cast generally have a few more people.

8:58Jim Dycker:I wonder if it's a tighter cast this year. I don't know.

9:00Andy Greenwald:Budget cuts?

9:01Chris Ryan:No, but it was an unwieldy brood last season, you know?

9:06Andy Greenwald:It's true.

9:07Chris Ryan:It felt like it was in a couple of different...

9:09Andy Greenwald:The various nodes of the polycule of the cast, each one had multiple people in it. Right. Do you remember that there was a, maybe the last good time on X.com, the Everything app, was when everyone was like posting pictures and they were like, True Detective Season 2?

9:24Jim Dycker:Mm-hmm.

9:27Andy Greenwald:no fun faux casting of the White Lotus can ever do it as well as Mike White actually does it. Like Steve Coogan and Helena Bonham Carter is elite.

9:36Chris Ryan:Yeah.

9:37Andy Greenwald:It's incredibly exciting. This guy just understands market deficiencies.

9:41Chris Ryan:I hope Steve Coogan is just doing Michael Caine from Dark Knight. He's just talking about how he won't bury another Batman.

9:48Andy Greenwald:I want him to be doing Philomena.

9:50Chris Ryan:Oh, yeah.

9:51Andy Greenwald:Is that your shit? I prefer a serious Steve Coogan. No, I can't wait to see this. Sorry, I'm interrupting you. Go ahead.

9:56Chris Ryan:No, and then, so there was a little bit of that. The Pit is going to stick to its annual, but maybe not like January to January schedule.

10:06Jim Dycker:But Casey said that he expects the Pit to be an annual season and that they're starting to generate ideas for season three. House of the Dragon looks to end on season four. And Casey got into a little bit of the fallout between George R.R. Martin and Ryan Condal, the showrunner for that show.

10:24Chris Ryan:and he was like he was just like hey you know family's fight family's fight just ours this one broke out into the open uh night of the seven kingdoms is currently shooting season two wild euphoria which is coming on for its third season in the spring could do a fourth season there are

10:43Jim Dycker:now rumors that sam levinson has a couple of ideas for it uh and then it he didn't say this but I would guess by the numbers, the enthusiasm, and the trajectory, and his comments, which were vague, but leaning positive, is that they will renew industry for season five.

11:01Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I mean, I think he's clearly very pleased with it. I think he feels, he and the entire team there feel very invested in it. And then you can see now the almost, it's almost quaint, like the old school marketing machinery that HBO still has access to sort of rumble to life for something that is rolling downhill when they get some momentum. Exactly, well said. Like, you know, obviously it was COVID so I don't think there was ever going to be a big premiere but there haven't been a lot of like co-brands of the industry. Yeah. Leading into the season there have been so many that like the entire cast were ringing the bell at the stock exchange and then having like an all-nighter boiler room.

11:37Andy Greenwald:Right. Like the show with the young cast who actually like each other and like to go out present a lot of opportunities for this sort of thing. So I feel like they're enjoying that.

11:44Chris Ryan:I had one sort of broader observation from this entire interview. I had an observation too. Why don't you go first? Okay. It was really interesting

11:54Jim Dycker:to watch Casey do Moneyball throughout this interview and talk about, in a way that I think many people who lead networks or run programming departments, and I'm sure they're all conscientious of their budgets, but whether it's because they have to keep up with the Joneses or because they work for technology companies that are like, there is no limit, you know, if you need to spend$80 million on a show that never comes out or whatever, go for it. Several times in this interview,

12:22Chris Ryan:and we'll put the link to the interview, the deadline interview in the show notes, he refers to just basically savvy business decisions. So whether it's the efficiency of making the pit in California

12:37Jim Dycker:and being able to turn it over in that sense, there's a really interesting conversation about them licensing Heated Rivalry from Crave, which is the Canadian network,

12:48Chris Ryan:having the rights to it for several seasons, I believe, but not being on the hook to renegotiate with this cast that has now reached, I'm hosting SNL levels.

12:59Andy Greenwald:But the implication was that Crave is going to have to renegotiate. Can Crave afford to do that? I don't know what the loom is doing right now. Look, Mark Carney can work wonders on the global stage. Sure, that's true. That's true. That was very interesting. Clearly something that he was very involved with, which we know to be the case. is very proud of. Yes. That that is just...

13:19Chris Ryan:And then he talks about Night of the Seven Kingdoms being a very affordable,

13:21Jim Dycker:within the context of Game of Thrones, affordable show to make. Although it sounds like season two, they have to shoot it in more of a desert climb.

13:30Andy Greenwald:Oh, that's exciting.

13:31Jim Dycker:Yeah.

13:32Andy Greenwald:The other thing that broke concurrently is HBO Max's long rumored, not rumored, I mean, they've been talking about it, that they have a cop companion show for the pit called American Blue. Oh, I did not know about this. Yes, this was... Is that in the interview? No, it's not. It broke also on deadline the same day. This has been in development for a while. It comes from Supernatural showrunner Jeremy Carver. Basically, as part of the pitification, the networkization, broadcastivization, whatever, of the HBO Max platform, they were like, let's see if we can do this in the three spaces that traditionally broadcast networks operated in.

14:10Jim Dycker:Doctors, cops.

14:11Andy Greenwald:And family dramas. So the family drama is still forthcoming or at least in development from the Berlanti universe under his overall at Warner Brothers. But American Blue was the one that kind of took the pole position for the cop show. And Milo Ventimiglia was just cast as the lead and David Iyer is going to direct the pilot. David Iyer knows his way around a cop drama. And it's another, I mean, the logline is about a native son returning to his hometown of Joliet, Illinois to rescue a beleaguered police force while seeking redemption of his own. The character, Brian Milk Milkovich.

14:49Chris Ryan:Much like Robbie That's the thing. I kind of

14:53Andy Greenwald:You remember when we used to do They can tweak that. That's what I'm saying. When we used to do the Jonah Serra take the glasses off Hollywood Fixer thing, I just feel like the nickname guy. Like you Jeremy Carver and everybody at HBO Max you're busy.

15:05Chris Ryan:Do you think he'll have a sassy desk sergeant named Lana instead of Dana? I mean and it's going to do like 15 hours.

15:12Andy Greenwald:I don't think it's the there's no implication there's no insinuation that it's going to be um the 24 style like like in real time yeah but yeah um but yeah just it's interesting and it's savvy both to be making these moves behind the scenes to get cost down and and get a bigger return on investment and it's very smart to be forward-facing about that um as he as casey is in the interview i would say and i'm not here to do any kind of like media critique i'll save that for my appearance on the press box, which is being negotiated right now by a lot of teams. So I don't want to criticize any media reporting and Nelly has been doing this for a very long time, but I was curious to note that much of her interview was kind of like you said, it was kind of just like serve and volleying of her trying to get him to crack about release dates and renewals, which obviously are headline drivers and there's a lot of curiosity about it.

16:01Andy Greenwald:Yeah, you just get scoops out of that. But there's so much more to this story here. Casey pushed back really hard on the development stuff because he doesn't want to, A, give them headlines that they can't back up, but also, like, it seems to be very important to him that there really have been only two Game of Thrones shows, that this isn't, like, flooding the zone like Marvel in 2020. So he didn't comment on Sea Snakes and Arya or whatever the other things in development were. But I just felt like it was a missed opportunity to kind of ask more about the philosophical programming decisions that they're making to stay distinct and to stay relevant, which has become almost existential, not just for Casey, but for HBO.

16:40Andy Greenwald:Meaning, how do you cut through the noise? That's what they've all been dealing with in this world of, you know, 400, 500 scripted shows, although that number is going down. But particularly, how do you stay, like, essentially a killer app when you're potentially about to be subsumed into Netflix?

16:54Jim Dycker:Yeah, I mean...

16:55Andy Greenwald:How do you work, how do you continue to do what they've done, which is work the very high-level end stuff, the prestige stuff that wins awards, the popcorn stuff, and now the sort of cost-effective stuff, and the one for us, like, as he mentions in the story, like... Somebody somewhere. How do you continue to make the right choices on all of those different playing fields all at the same time? I think that's interesting and how the market forces and the upcoming market forces may have changed or affected their decision.

17:22Chris Ryan:Yeah, I mean, I think that the, it wouldn't be a nightmare scenario because FX obviously does really good work within the context of the Disney infrastructure. But it would be a strange experience to kind of evaluate HBO as a vertical within Netflix, you know?

17:38Jim Dycker:and to not think of it as something that was sort of on its own. And then frankly, I think the week-to-week releases really do help create a world of conversation around HBO shows because that's what people are watching.

17:52Chris Ryan:We're currently covering three broadly HBO or HBO Max shows on the pod and almost to the expense of everything else. And that's because we can do so for two months. If the pit went up over the course of a weekend, we'd probably be done with it

18:08Jim Dycker:in three or four days in terms of covering it. So I think that the biggest question I have about the potential merger or the potential acquisition of HBO in the Netflix world is what happens to the release model. Well, you know... They have not moved off of that. For as much as they're talking about theatrical, for as much as they experiment with live, for as much as Stranger Things was parceled out over the course of three holidays, which was obviously to eventize it. I haven't seen anything that would suggest that they wouldn't put the pit up entirely in one weekend.

18:43Andy Greenwald:It's a great question. And would they treat the traditional, you know, A-list brand HBO shows like White Lotus differently than they would treat these newfangled 15-hour HBO Max shows? Now, that's a way down the line conversation because this hasn't even gone through yet. I keep coming back to this, and I don't know, and maybe our listeners and emailers will give me their perspective on this, people who might know more than I do about it. But I do have a feeling, and this is not just like my vibes. I mean, people have said as much to me that Ted Sarandos does appreciate the uniqueness of the things that he is attempting to acquire.

19:20Andy Greenwald:That he does like what DeLuca and Abdi are doing with Warner Brothers Theatrical, and he likes going to the movies sometimes. I think he also likes and admires HBO and what they've been able to do and why they still are considered the crown jewel and I think he understands that the release model is part of that. Yeah. The question is appreciation versus stewardship Sure. and how long it takes because what is the TV equivalent of what many people are predicting which is that he will respect theatrical windows they're just going to get shorter. Right. What is the TV version of that? I thought it was interesting.

19:52Andy Greenwald:It doesn't mean that these shows become like what he's doing with Bridgerton where it's like half and half seasons.

19:56Jim Dycker:Yes. But those are when those shows are up in the top the 99th percentile of Netflix shows. I thought it was interesting. I'm sure Sean and Amanda will comment on this in more depth. Christopher Nolan made his first comment in his role as the president of the DGA and had a lot to say about theatrical windows. And was sort of like the only thing that distinguishes... Basically, Sarandos' attitude towards theatrical windows will be a huge indicator of where this industry is going and whether or not theatrical is just sort of like a quick exhibition to qualify for something or to like have something in the theater for, you know, a week or whether it's going to be like, we're going to keep using the movie theater as like the primary way people are experiencing this art form.

20:45Andy Greenwald:I mean, thank God for Jeff Bezos and Amazon committed to the theatrical model. Even for just sort of scrappy docs. You know what I mean? Like they believe in that, like getting people out to the theater.

20:57Chris Ryan:do you want to do you want to weigh in i'm not scared to weigh in i just i think almost like your silence is deafening yeah it is well it's deafening because i lost my voice screaming while i was reading epstein this episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from wells fargo that's a mouthful but that's because it packs a lot in earn unlimited two

21:16Jim Dycker:percent cash rewards on purchases with it big or small so whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee it earns unlimited two percent cash rewards on purchases say it with me The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a two percenter. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply.

21:35Chris Ryan:This episode is brought to you by Brooks.

21:38Jim Dycker:Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us. The intersection of interest that inspires a run crew. The support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about, an outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast.

22:14Jim Dycker:From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day, and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then, because if you don't do it now, Then when? Learn more at VW.com. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Peaky Blinders is, hands down, one of the most iconic series of all time. And the gangsters are back in Netflix's new film, Peaky Blinders, The Immortal Man. Tommy Shelby, played by the Academy Award-winning Killian Murphy, of course, must face his own demons and choose whether to confront his legacy or burn it to the ground. I watched the movie, and let me tell you, it's just fascinating to watch Killian on the other side of the Oppenheimer journey that he's been on, becoming one of our great actors.

23:00Jim Dycker:I mean, he already was one of our great actors, but to become one of the major movie stars in Hollywood, this is perhaps his signature role, his iconic role. He brings like an even more haunted, weathered quality to it. And he's paired off with Barry Keoghan, who's just extraordinary in this and brings this youthful vigor and energy that the story greatly benefits from. Peaky Blinders, The Immortal Man is in select theaters March 6th, and on Netflix March 20th, rated R. Bells. All right, let's get into industry. How about that? Okay. This is a really good episode of television. The show has now kind of gotten into that, like the breaking of the rules is the rule zone where, you know, the last...

23:38Andy Greenwald:Disruption, disruption.

23:38Jim Dycker:It's not even that. I'm not even trying to like give it tech keywords or anything like that. There is something really exciting about not knowing what's going to happen in the last... Like as we kind of like approach the last stretch of this episode and you've got Whitney and Henry having their kind of Edie and Neil Heat moment staring out over the landscape, sort of.

24:01Chris Ryan:Yeah, sort of.

24:03Andy Greenwald:I didn't remember that part of the movie, but...

24:05Chris Ryan:But that felt very Michael Mann to me. Like the two guys staring out into the city.

24:09Andy Greenwald:More like Michael Mann on man.

24:11Chris Ryan:Michael Mann, yes. Michael Mann.

24:13Andy Greenwald:Men who love men.

24:14Jim Dycker:You know, that's the conclusion of the episode in a lot of ways. You've got the Hayley and Yasmin moment in the elevator. you've got the boys in the office

24:23Chris Ryan:got some other boys and then it keeps going you know what I mean and you get Jim Dyker's

24:31Jim Dycker:colossal kind of like public scandal breaking with his relationship to not only Harper but his inappropriate relationship with Haley it gets to his editor his editor is recommending his termination Jim spiraling goes to a pub gets a bag has a bag whatever the bag man is also at the pub Rishi it turns out these two have been circling each other it turns out Rishi is the one who broke into Jim's flat earlier looking for himself an edge on something that he could get involved with to like make more money in the market the two of them recognize each other as lost souls and have and pawns in a way right a dark night of the lost soul and that can get pretty fucking dark

25:14Chris Ryan:yeah

25:14Jim Dycker:and what transpires is a quiet like arresting and blazing performance from Heaton.

25:21Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

25:24Jim Dycker:And just that eerie, like, industry can be like, it'll be four on the floor, and you're like, I know the rhythm. I know what's happening. I know the beat. And then something will come up, like the weird pub barfly. That was great. Who's standing in the back, turning the music up all the time, and kind of amping up the drama. And the episode ends with Dyker ODing, and Rishi flinging himself off his own balcony as the cops are coming into his flat, but not dying.

25:54Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

25:54Jim Dycker:Breaking at least a leg, I imagine. Might have some ACL problems in the other one.

26:00Andy Greenwald:What's our God's name? Dr. James Glashout? What's his name?

26:03Chris Ryan:James Andrews and there is a James...

26:05Andy Greenwald:What? The dude who built a new Joel Embiid.

26:09Chris Ryan:Right.

26:10Andy Greenwald:That's who works for the Sixers.

26:11Chris Ryan:Jonathan Glashout.

26:12Andy Greenwald:He doesn't, but he works for the city of Philadelphia now. We're going to put up... You don't know about this? We're going to hang his jersey.

26:17Chris Ryan:I thought it was like some guy who works for the Sixers who just like knee whispered him.

26:21Andy Greenwald:No, he's an NYC orthopedic surgeon, Dr. Jonathan Glasshow. We're going to hang it. All right, relax. You know what? This is the most excited I've been all pot. All right, go on. Let's go back to episode of the year. Yeah, okay. I didn't say that.

26:32Chris Ryan:I just was like, it's really, really great. And, you know, you've talked about this really much more eloquently than I did, but just them writing themselves into corners.

26:42Andy Greenwald:Well, it's both writing yourself into corners and acknowledging, like, not throwing, in gambling terms, a subject I know nothing about, but not throwing bad money after good. Meaning, when you commit to doing something, deal with the reality of it to the extent that you can, and then if you have to walk away, you walk away. And not many shows have the courage of that conviction. So when you introduce a character like Big Jim Diker and the first two things he does are sketchy at best and fireable and amoral at worst, how are you going to square that? Like, how do you prepare? And I think some shows would be like, oh, interesting.

27:25Andy Greenwald:How will I kind of, I want it to shock with the introduction, but I now must make some sort of sane washing choice character-wise to make it worth it or make us understand it. and with some of the additions to the character even within this episode, you could maybe think that those guardrails are being placed. Well, he's under a lot of stress. He's a girl dad or maybe he had a boy, I don't remember. But the point is dad. We don't.

27:50Chris Ryan:You got to take the bad girl dads with the good girl dads. You know, you can't have Marty Supreme. I think I was a boy.

27:56Andy Greenwald:Okay. I'm pretty sure based on his behavior, I was a boy. and you're thinking are these guardrails for a potential salvation arc and no no it's not same for Rishi same for Rishi I think but the descent might be longer because I think Charlie well it was pretty quick

28:14Chris Ryan:when he jumped off that's true recall it was like

28:17Andy Greenwald:the ground came up real fast yeah it tends to I mean Charlie Heaton this is obviously we're spoiling already has done the round before this episode aired had done his round of interviews to go on to go up after yes And said that he knew he was doing a half-season arc and everything and left it all off the floor, quite literally.

28:34Chris Ryan:But you can see why. Yeah. You know?

28:37Jim Dycker:You can see why he would do something like that because, yes, in the first couple of episodes, the first three episodes, he's largely, like, you know, staring at a computer screen and, you know, begging for more time on his story deadline. But, like, that's why you would—any actor in the world would sign up to do that.

28:53Andy Greenwald:Especially if you want to change direction from what you've been doing.

28:56Chris Ryan:I'll say this. As someone who is somewhat of a connoisseur of Coki performances in movies and TV, I thought he did, he had like an energy that I don't think I, it wasn't like he was doing Sean Penn or doing Ray Liotta.

29:11Jim Dycker:But he had a very specific energy to him when he was doing that. And I thought his inability to hear Rishi was actually the funniest part. Not funny, but it was like, this is very dead on of this guy's I'm ranting

29:28Chris Ryan:and this other dude talking about how he might want to kill himself and is never going to see his son. And Dyker's just like, no, no, no, man. I've got the sheet music, brother.

29:40Andy Greenwald:I got it. Well, also, there was the way that anger, confrontation, fighting, disagreeing was part of the rush. Yeah. That it was not actually, for him at least, that it didn't seem like there were actual stakes to it. But to your point about, like, mitigating everything through ego and through personal experience, I thought that was one of the nicest things about the episode. Nice. Very little about the episode was nice. But in terms of, like, through lines, that almost every interaction was, there was always an extra element on top of it so that when Jonah is talking to Sweet Pea, he is on the phone at a strip club.

30:18Andy Greenwald:He can't even do either without, he can't enjoy vice or work separate and apart from each other. Everyone is basically staring into a private abyss and their conversations are feedback loops with whatever it is they already want to say.

30:33Chris Ryan:Yeah, I think one of the reasons why the show feels different than other shows is not only because of the music and not only because of the performances,

30:41Jim Dycker:but the performances are not, this is not like a marked-based set. I don't think people have to stand still as they do, you know, single, single master for these actors. And there's a lot of, like, movement within what feels, when they're sets, they look like the real world, and then often it seems like they are shooting out in the real world. And that flat looked like a dingy prefab, not dingy, but a prefab flat on Canary Wharf somewhere. You know what I mean? Like wherever Rishi had sort of washed up.

31:10Andy Greenwald:I want to go back to the top of the episode before dwelling too much and then maybe we'll return to the end. But when you were talking about like cinematic references and the show feeling its oats more in terms of drawing from things, I don't know if it was subtle, but like when you talked about like Cokie energy and the guy with the volume, I mean, that is straight out of the Boogie Nights playbook. That's the firecrackers.

31:30Jim Dycker:I have two more things about the end before we go back to the beginning. Can I just bounce two things off of you? Let's go. The thing is that I liked the idea of Jim's monologue as the piece he would never get a chance to write. That's well said. I liked the idea that he was like, Tender and Siren and, you know, payment processing platforms and the legality of what they're doing in Africa is all just like a kind of, it's like a chimera of like, this is what I really want to say about the world.

32:04Chris Ryan:Yes.

32:04Jim Dycker:And so he gets it out and dies. Like it's his last will and testament kind of.

32:09Andy Greenwald:I mean, when he said, what did he say? We age without getting older, stuck on a wheel of prediction and consumption.

32:16Jim Dycker:Yes, I have some other darts he had.

32:19Andy Greenwald:I was both ready to stand up and salute and I was also like, ah, Conrad, I hear your music playing. I mean, it was kind of -

32:28Jim Dycker:Nothing serious. We're just steam on a mirror. We built an interface with the world that gives us what we want, but not what we want to want. And then goes out like a champion, you know?

32:40Chris Ryan:With Ultravox playing. An all-time needle drop. I also wanted to ask you, I know that the man who was in the room with them was real. Yeah. But I would like to go back through industry and spot the ghosts.

32:57Andy Greenwald:That's very interesting. So wait, this is great. I'm not going to take you off of this. But I also felt that it was a brilliant inclusion in the scene because there's also a strong, strong, it's not even a whiff, it's a presence of paranoia in this episode. Even before Charlie gets broken out. And the idea that these people were, as you said, circling each other, but maybe more than that, that this was not a casual encounter.

33:21Jim Dycker:Yes, that Rishi has been prying into Diker's life and vice versa.

33:26Andy Greenwald:But like how high does this thing go? And is Whitney capable of having... Of course he hasn't been capable. Right, of having Dyker killed or having it set up to look like he was killed. Is Rishi collateral damage in a good way?

33:40Jim Dycker:Let me just pull up justice.gov. Would you mind killing this bloke?

33:46Andy Greenwald:Whoops. But the cleverness of the episode is in the small details. Like the guy who ends up being their best mate, who has kind of big aging Bez energy, I felt. Shout out Happy Mondays. His encounter with them is chasing off someone else, right? To earn their trust, which is actual classic spycraft, right? Like you set up both sides of them.

34:10Jim Dycker:Oh, to like engender their trust, yes.

34:13Chris Ryan:I mean, you could argue that Rishi and Dyker are going to have that night regardless. That's the thing.

34:18Andy Greenwald:They don't really need to be pushed. They're jumping.

34:20Chris Ryan:It's not literally like a ghost. It's just spectral figures throughout the series. Who else are you thinking of? Clement, you know, in the first season, who is obviously a real person, but is almost like future Rob,

34:32Jim Dycker:you know, kind of like talking him through his class crisis. Remind people.

34:37Andy Greenwald:I wanted to talk about Clement as well.

34:38Jim Dycker:Clement is like one of my favorite inventions of the show, which is in the first season, Rob's sort of assigned mentor who has one client and has been masking his Scottish heritage.

34:52Chris Ryan:I mean, his identity.

34:53Jim Dycker:One other thing too. Yeah, and his heroin addiction. Yeah. And who essentially acts as like Rob's benefactor posthumously and is just this lovely, in half of an episode of season one, they go on this trip to Amsterdam, I believe. I don't remember. Or Antwerp. I think it's Amsterdam. And go to a tailor and like have this experience. and it's just this like incredible, like if industry was a series of short stories, it would be one of my favorite ones. Absolutely. You know, we obviously had the commander from earlier this season. So I was like, I kind of want to go back through and think about people who kind of hovered

35:31Chris Ryan:over these characters and then vanished, whether even Adler, you know what I mean? Like the idea of these characters kind of. Think about the show began. The show began. With the trainee dying in the bathroom.

35:41Andy Greenwald:Yes, and it presents him. I don't have his name in front of me because he was brilliant in Station Eleven too, the actor. But like people were being picked off before they even started. And that shadow, I guess, falls emotionally on the characters, even though he's never really mentioned. Right. Nabhan Rizwan, sorry. He's fantastic. Yeah. Frank in Station Eleven. I was thinking a lot about the role Clement played and the lack of Clements going forward. And I think that there's two different ways into a conversation about it in the show. And I want to try to present it in a value neutral way because I'm curious your thoughts about it.

36:14Andy Greenwald:we've talked a lot so far this season about the lack of familiar settings we've lost Pierpont although weirdly Pierpont is back I was going to ask about this but yeah the succubus of the company is back haunting these characters but outside of Eric they've also lost all middle management the only everyone in this show this season is playing dress up no one more so than Yasmin who is wearing like an almost cartoonish Grace Jones power suit with the shoulders as she's play acting and it's not a coincidence it's a sign of I think cleverness and intent that it's as extravagant a period outfit as they were wearing when they were all dressed up for Henry's birthday

36:53Jim Dycker:my favorite outfit in this episode is definitely Henry's Henry's relatable he's sure he's open just a little bit yeah but tucked in Chelsea boots and is just kind of like hey man I know I'm aristocratic but we're all friends here we all have our mental health struggles yeah

37:09Andy Greenwald:so basically this season the kids are playing dress up and the only authority figures that are left for them are dinosaurs. The people who run the newspapers, the people who have held the entrenched power. And I think that there's a critical way in of that where there are moments this season that I've bumped against where like the tender is going to completely revolutionize finance and government and banking, everything in this country. And it's being masterminded by these three dopes, basically by the end of this episode. And that feels... Sometimes I question the reality of that even though it's in the purpose of drama.

37:51Andy Greenwald:There are other times when I'm like, oh, this is actually a withering and insightful exploration of the world of a hollowed out middle that exists where gerontocracy politically and no middle. I'm not saying this to big up our pathetic generation, but people in our generation have never held power in the country because the baby boomers didn't give it up. And then the younger people are like, what the fuck? Let's just go on OnlyFans, I guess. Or sirens. That seems to be the extent of it. Yeah. So, and in the light of that binary, what James' speech is, is quite telling. And there's an emptiness at the heart of this.

38:35Andy Greenwald:People are play-acting at responsibility when really everyone is just, you know, auto-looping their sonar pings into their own screens. Sure, yeah. Do you ever feel, though, a lack of, not that Clement was a great mentor, but in a way he was a guide, not necessarily all positive. He was like a almost, even when he was alive, he was like a Christmas Carol type figure. That's what I, yeah. For Rob. Do you feel the lack of any?

39:02Jim Dycker:I think that there's like, you know, I don't feel an absence. I think what I'm experiencing watching, you know, this show opens, this episode opens with crisis talks at two different companies. So Stern Tao, which is essentially, you know, two, three people, four people at this point with Kenny banking for them. Kind of freaking out because Diker's not published a follow-up yet

39:29Chris Ryan:that exposes these Sunderland, you know, drop sites where people are doing whatever they're doing for Tender.

39:38Andy Greenwald:They need to tarnish the reputation of Tender quickly in order to secure their shorts or whatever.

39:44Jim Dycker:And then at Tender, they're talking about their new app. Now, while I was watching those first two scenes,

39:50Chris Ryan:I was kind of really distracted by a thought I had of industry with normal music. What would industry feel like if it was just like...

40:03Andy Greenwald:Oh, if it was like Tina Fey's husband's circus-like score from like 30 Rock or Kimmy Schmidt. Someone could drop that. I'm with you on that.

40:14Chris Ryan:So when I was watching it, I was like, these two companies are quite likely lawless. You know what I mean? Like we're watching that. But open up Bloomberg. They're all companies.

40:27Andy Greenwald:You pay for that subscription? Must be nice. That's great. Maybe you can kick me a free article link sometime. It must be. It's really hard being you. To the point of music, I do want to say that it really absolves all sins because I was more critical of last week's episode, certainly, than you were. And then to have this episode begin with a classic contemporary drama construction of an Around the Horn where we're checking in.

40:55Chris Ryan:What's going on? How much money do we have? What are we doing?

40:58Andy Greenwald:Yeah, and everybody's a little agitated for reasons that are interlinked. And then the Nathan McKay, the keys drop. And I was like, let's go, let's go. It's really, really just smart asset management to be like, we are taking some risky positions, but we are still the same company. But this is why, what happens is like,

41:20Chris Ryan:in the same way that you're talking about these experienced veterans moving off the stage, both in terms of characters on the show,

41:29Jim Dycker:but in the world of finance, if it's all upstart fucking cowboys

41:36Chris Ryan:with short plays or crypto, and I guess we're going to start sounding like Jim Dyker here in a second, then this is what's going to happen. You basically have two rebels fighting against each other in this show

41:48Jim Dycker:instead of an old guard and a new guard. And then the only remnants of the old guard are actually like these hollowed out storefronts like PurePoint. Yes, which is a front now. Which is basically like, oh, it has some name recognition. So it's like basically a piece of financial IP that we're resurrecting. And then at the end of the episode, they basically take a stake in PurePoint to offset the risk of PurePoint taking a stake in them, which is, if you can wrap your head around that, you're kind of like, we're so fucked. Did you want to talk a little bit about the Love Square? developing between Henry, Whitney, Yasmin, and Haley, although I would not put love central into the square there.

42:29Andy Greenwald:Let's start with the Henry stuff because I think Kit Harington continues to add to his MEFYC reel. He's fucking awesome in this show, man. Do you know what he's really, really good at? I mean, many things as we're learning, but something that I think he was also good at in Game of Thrones, and I wouldn't say, I mean, he's a talented actor and you're always honing your craft, but there's a specific thing that I think you can trace back to Game of Thrones that I love seeing here, which is that he is, and I know we keep harping on this, in the, you know, he is not a particularly tall man. However, physically, he is elite at menacing people who are even on screen clearly bigger than him.

43:09Andy Greenwald:It's like, it's like, it's like Allen Iverson in the paint, basically. He's just like, he understands that the way to be bigger and to intimidate people, whether it's Whitney, I think in one scene or anyone else, is he doesn't come over the top like he is bigger. He goes low like a wrestler about to take them down. And it is intimidating. It's a physical performance, not just a clever verbal performance.

43:32Chris Ryan:I can't imagine having to act

43:35Jim Dycker:and give emotional intent to the dialogue that Mickey and Conrad write for this show and how it's so acrobatic and it's so dense. So it's really on the performer to imbue it with the emotional intent of each moment. He might be the best at it. You can see pain in his eyes as he says certain things because he's not getting his way about how he wants something presented. He's the one where you're watching and you're like, even if I don't understand the concept of what he's saying or the real interaction between if we take a stake in them and they take a stake in this, I can see, I understand emotionally what he wants because of the way he projects it.

44:21Jim Dycker:And honestly, you're right. He was like that in Game of Thrones. He was able to, you know, even if it was dense fantasy ideas, like communicate a very clear emotional kind of reality to the audience. It's like kind of like watching, you know, you can watch tons of people do Shakespeare and then you watch Emma Thompson do Shakespeare and you're like, oh, like I kind of understand Shakespeare now.

44:41Andy Greenwald:It's also a much more complicated journey because I think broad, broad, broad strokes, to the journey of Jon Snow is he's nothing, he's the bastard, he's a pawn of history to having agency in it. And what's fascinating about this performance is it's someone who is incredibly privileged, who is used to having things his way in a certain way and has no issues indulging himself in almost any direction. And yet you see him repeatedly almost like buck against the handcuffs that he suddenly finds himself in. Most of them are emotional, psychosexual handcuffs. Like when he says to Yasmin, you're meant to talk me down.

45:12Andy Greenwald:You're doing this wrong. This is not right. I'm afraid of you. he traps her you know he's like give me a lorazepam

45:19Jim Dycker:and she's like I can try and find one he's like god damn it that's like you know you did it wrong

45:22Andy Greenwald:and what was interesting and again I think the show has been very smart about is it too much to keep making these financial analogies keep backstopping its position I mean we may not even know I don't know what that means I have no idea what that means I'm just going to try it because you could watch the season up to this episode and you could say I understand why Henry is being made the CEO of this company for the purposes of an eight-episode season. Beyond that, I'm not entirely clear on it. I'm not entirely sold on it. Then you see the way Whitney looks at him and puts his hand on him. And the talk about building on the conversation from, I believe, the previous episode where he talked about second acts and where they are possible and where they are not.

46:05Andy Greenwald:And the way he talks about, much like Yasmin does, pouring his hopes and dreams for what Henry Muck could be into the very flawed vessel known as Henry Muck, you start to understand it on multiple levels, not just on a plot contrivance level, which is really helpful.

46:22Chris Ryan:Well, in the same way that they're using Peerpoint, is it Peerpoint powered by Tender or Tender powered by Peerpoint? I can't remember.

46:29Andy Greenwald:I think by the end, Tender has the upper hand.

46:32Chris Ryan:It's almost like a guy like Henry is better than nothing. You know, it's like you basically have some name recognition. You have some aristocracy or, you know, He's a landed gentry.

46:44Jim Dycker:So you're building up from that, and it's better, even if he has failed publicly with Lumi and had mental health and drug problems in the public, you're still, it's like, hey, we'll just make a, we'll go back into the 1980s and just grab this title because it has a higher baseline name recognition than anything else.

47:04Chris Ryan:So I really like the idea that all these people have sort of convinced him that this is King Arthur. you know

47:10Andy Greenwald:and that he

47:10Chris Ryan:for giving a fucking speech no but he has his St.

47:13Andy Greenwald:Swithin's Day speech he goes off book and he moves people in an unmovable room then he blows right by

47:20Chris Ryan:his beautiful wife that was awkward

47:21Andy Greenwald:that was awkward but his beautiful wife is what's the word maybe a monster

47:27Chris Ryan:yeah yes reminiscent of the succession sequence with Shiv talking a sexual abuse whistleblower

47:37Jim Dycker:out of coming forward Yaz gets Haley played by Kieran Shipka promoted at at tender as a kind of

47:48Chris Ryan:reward for participating in a threesome with her and Henry slash

47:53Andy Greenwald:also potentially another she's someone on her side I mean she is I mean they it's intentional she is completely out of place yes in front of her out in front of her skis

48:04Jim Dycker:I think she she's presenting it to Haley as like I I recognize like great talent in you professionally. And Haley's like, let's be honest, like about what that was. Yes. And now I have something on you as well.

48:15Andy Greenwald:That's the arc of the episode. Yes. Did you feel, we're talking about how like one of the, one of the smart things that showrunners can do is have certain people on an innings count. You know, you could, the James Diker story served a purpose and they gave Charlie Heaton enough real estate to make a character, have opportunities, and then also to have it surprise. Were you surprised that the Haley character is going in this direction or is having the prominence that she is thus far? Not saying that she couldn't be gone after next week. I mean, that's part of the fun of watching the show now.

48:52Chris Ryan:I also think that, like, the characters can change week to week. And I didn't see scenes from next week.

48:58Jim Dycker:And we should mention that both Industry and Night of Sun and Kinkins are going up on Friday this week because of the Super Bowl.

49:06Chris Ryan:I don't know how she is going to react to the news that Diker has died or that, you know, like, like, I don't know how she's going to feel next week. She's a, she's a young person, you know, like, I think there is a liveliness. Yes.

49:19Jim Dycker:And, uh, this is now not like, she's not Lena Headey in Game of Thrones. She's a person who's like, maybe got more to her than what Yasmin thought, but I don't know that she's like soulless or anything like that.

49:32Andy Greenwald:I'm curious where it's a very intentional choice. Like having Ken Leung and Mahala be in the show is credible for the show. I don't know how much conversation, although there may have been some, there was at the genesis about the importance of them being American, you know, in terms of the story, as opposed to we need some Americans in here because it's going to be an international show. At this point in season four, bringing in these American characters is more significant and there was some thought to it as evidenced by that second acts in American life or English life thing. So I'm very curious what is going to be said about that.

50:09Andy Greenwald:You know, not just because, you know, as an American who's been in England recently. Yeah. As are you. I mean, I don't want to step on your experience as well. Thanks, man. I want to hold some space for it. I will say the only time that I really was out on this week's episode was when Calabasas said that I don't rate that at all.

50:26Chris Ryan:But if she's been in England for five years, maybe she started picking up some fling.

50:30Andy Greenwald:You know what I say when I accept my pint of N.A. Cheers.

50:35Chris Ryan:That was all I had for industry this week. Do you have anything else?

50:39Andy Greenwald:The reishi stuff was excellent. I think Cigar Radio is giving just a great performance. I think it is also another example of playing with timing and expectation because last week we were talking about how much more, this is probably the right way to phrase it, rope the character had and how the repercussions will be doled out. And clearly we were expecting more repercussions than Sweet Pea being like, get this guy away from me. Sure. That came this week in the form of, oh, that was the other screen mitigating experience when he's getting roadhead from his underage drug dealer. I forgot about that.

51:12Andy Greenwald:But again, it's all on a screen. We have that scene. We see how far he's fallen in a way, although, you know, probably someone in the New York Review of Books is just like, Rishi's job remains the same across these seasons.

51:24Chris Ryan:Does New York Review of Books do industry recaps?

51:26Andy Greenwald:No, but I renewed my subscription when they had a big takeout on F-ingers. So I feel like now we're really setting the agenda for the elite publications in this country.

51:35Chris Ryan:For Bloomberg and the New York Review of Books. Finally, our generation is taking power when it matters.

51:41Andy Greenwald:The scene with his surprisingly religious ex-mother-in-law with his son there was a devastating scene. But what's interesting and compelling about the show is the way that they do switch up the tempo. So with those scenes coming in short order and then him showing up, you know, clearly intentionally with James, I thought, ah, I see. So the Rishi story is now going to be onboarded, like mainstreamed into Stern Tau and everything. And this is just the beginning of it. And I'm fine with it. It's great. I'm ready for him to come back and be the, you know, dirty investigator or whatever it is that he's going to be doing.

52:19Andy Greenwald:And then he throws himself off of a balcony. which was surprising. Not that he did it. That episode was clearly headed that way. But then in terms of they keep putting, they keep painting him into story corners. And it's risky. And it's interesting. And I don't, I'm purely curious to see where it goes. Because that outcome for him is not unexpected. But it was unexpected at the end of episode four.

52:43Jim Dycker:It was, and it was not unexpected given the way that the, the way that he had kept running into basically dead ends. cul-de-sacs professional rehabilitation personal rehabilitation um you know and then he finds himself like the guys that and the people that he is going to be like leveling out with are like coked out people at afters you know what i mean and that he's never really going to get a license to do what he did before he's essentially a drug dealing uh father of a child that he will never be allowed to see alone again yeah whose name is being changed and people are frequently calling a murderer or at least publicly calling him a murderer and he's infamous in a way that i don't

53:25Andy Greenwald:think i understood yes um yeah coming off of last season that people would know about it um yeah we're on a ghost ship i thought that was i thought that was industry at its best and i also just you know obviously we we know the guys who make it we've talked to them many times and i am always looking for convergence between you know the meta story of things and and the idea of like the middle managers being gone and only dealing with the oligarchs while you try to make something creative that lasts is relevant. I just thought that that speech was so nicely twinned with the feature that The New Yorker ran about them, which is back in December.

54:04Andy Greenwald:And it's a great story. They explain everything behind the scenes. But the fact that it ends with Mickey going home to be with his family, the story, and Conrad talking about why people are fucking miserable while waiting for his friend who works at Goldman to arrive. I'm like, everything is copied, but it is a, you can't watch this show. It feels personal. That's what I'm saying. That is always the secret sauce to almost anything that we respond to artistically and not just us people. And I love that. Like the show is, there's a seriousness of purpose to the show that earns it its stripes. Like there are moments, even the season where I'm like, is it veering into, I said this last week, the more sensationalist chaotic elements that get headlines or get go viral or, you know, but it knows what it's doing.

54:56Andy Greenwald:And there's purpose in the soullessness. And it's attempting to comment on that in a way that I find pretty compelling.

55:02Chris Ryan:I think that on a week to week basis, there's like just lots of gifable moments

55:05Jim Dycker:and kind of there's almost like probably built in viral quality to it. I wouldn't say that that's something that they're thinking about when they're writing, but it just feels that way when it's like, oh, you know, Kieran Shipka throwing up her mini dress is really going to blow people's minds. But when you look at the four episodes together, when the themes of this series and season start to emerge, and when you kind of think about all the flourishes that happen as writers, as directors, it's really, it's why we spend so much time talking about it. Let's spend a little bit of time talking about A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.

55:41Jim Dycker:I talked about this with Mal and Joe. A lot of what we talked about, actually, at the top of that episode, and I wanted to get your thoughts on it, was the twist and the idea of, was it a twist? Was it a thrill for you? As somebody who obviously didn't read the books, but I don't know how much you read about the characters going into it. So spoilers for this third episode of Night of the Seven Kingdoms. But what did you think of the reveal at the end that Egg is, in fact, Aegon Targaryen?

56:10Andy Greenwald:I was thrilled. Did you know it? Yes. Okay. I still don't really know what that fully means, and I was going to ask you to help talk me through some twisted Targaryen history.

56:21Jim Dycker:Just listen to that fortune teller.

56:23Andy Greenwald:Yeah, exactly. But she's good at her job. Yeah. She should definitely get a raise. So much of, I say this constantly for almost every major show we talk about, for the many years we've been doing this podcast, But much like play calling in the NFL, so much of what makes showrunners elite is this innate sense of tempo and timing and how to play, you know, when to call certain plays. Let's put it that way.

56:53Chris Ryan:Yeah.

56:53Andy Greenwald:And the reason why I know I wish there was like a heat map for like what you mentioned.

56:58Chris Ryan:And it's definitely offensive coordinating. And the effingers are just like fucking redder than the sun.

57:05Andy Greenwald:This podcast is personal. So much like industry, we have to bring our whole selves to it. No, but jokes aside, I was aware of that reveal, and we made some passing jokes last week about how they were kind of laying a little bit thick with the edit. But one of the fun things about watching the show regardless, well, the main fun thing about watching the show regardless is that this show is very fun to watch, and that's enough. The second fun thing was knowing what I know, how will they choose to share this information? And this episode through the first half was, I mean, there was jousting, but it was relatively slower and more contemplative and gave me the thought that the reveal was coming at the end of the season, that it was going to be a long throw clear before we get there.

57:56Andy Greenwald:What they did that I love, and again, this is probably, if not, you can tell me probably because of your experience with Joe and Mal, from the text or not a huge creative leap on the part of Ira Parker, making the circumstance in which it's revealed the most dramatically fraught and put it at the exact midpoint of the season is just...

58:18Chris Ryan:That is as it is in the novella, but I thought that whole sequence was beautifully staged.

58:24Andy Greenwald:It was so good, and it was, as my friend Martha says, just good telly because you see, we've watched, it plays on so many things. Our expectations, are spoiler, potentially having been spoiled or not, are surprised, but also in a very subtle and clever way, it plays on our, many of ours, decade plus of watching Game of Thrones, where we know if you punch a prince in the face, it's not going to go great. And there's only maybe one thing that can save you. And so they pulled it out of the hat at the right moment.

58:53Chris Ryan:I was thinking about this because these guys, these two characters, the main characters, are obviously teaching each other so much. Both, you know, Egg obviously has this kind of insight into the mechanics of when he comes, when Dunk comes back and is like, this guy says that he was a lowly crabber. And he's like, no, he was actually the son of the guy who ran all crabbing, you know? Dunk is teaching Egg about being kind and stepping up for people who need help. It is a lone wolf and cub type relationship. And sometimes I think I've kind of resented those because plot armor dictates that the cub can't really get hurt, you know?

59:30Andy Greenwald:Or in the case of Mando, the cub can't even talk. Right. This cub. But when you put that in the Game of Thrones world,

59:37Chris Ryan:I wasn't like this dude's going to get curb stomped, but I wasn't not like that. I wasn't certain. I was like, this is going to be a tough scene if this dude is acting with no teeth for the rest of this series.

59:48Andy Greenwald:Yes.

59:49Chris Ryan:But I thought...

59:52Andy Greenwald:Dentistry in Westeros. I thought that the way that they did that whole sequence,

59:55Chris Ryan:I mean, first of all, I'm a really... I've said this a lot. I think Finn Bennett is like really good actor and also like an ace piece of shit on this show.

1:00:04Andy Greenwald:Huge Cobra Kai energy to it as well, which I loved. Super, super Johnny. Yeah, the whole thing was really well staged. Sarah Dina Smith, who's a really talented director.

1:00:16Chris Ryan:The low angle shot of like egg kind of with the classical music, the surging music, you know.

1:00:21Andy Greenwald:I thought it was, I thought it was excellent. And again, like the 30 minutes, you're enjoying it. and then to land and leave us on a place that flips the entire series was really, really expertly done.

1:00:33Jim Dycker:Yeah, because I think if you're not reading the books or if you're not really reading any spoilers or anything like that, you're like, oh, right, this is probably going to build up like a sports movie.

1:00:41Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

1:00:41Jim Dycker:And then Dunk is going to learn all these lessons

1:00:44Chris Ryan:from the characters around him and win or come in second. You know what I mean? And it's, yeah, it's different than that.

1:00:51Andy Greenwald:Can I ask you a real House of R question? Sure. Is anyone in Westeros like white blonde other than Targaryens or bastards of Targaryens? Is the hair that much of a giveaway? I don't remember one way or another.

1:01:05Chris Ryan:Yes. I think that that is their signature thing from piles of incest. Piles.

1:01:12Andy Greenwald:Evocative.

1:01:13Chris Ryan:Yeah. Those two, they, I think now what has happened over the years is that the Targaryens at this

1:01:19Jim Dycker:point have started marrying other families elsewhere for political purposes. to retain power

1:01:25Andy Greenwald:because they no longer have dragons. So if Gaelor doesn't have

1:01:27Jim Dycker:blonde hair uh et cetera.

1:01:30Andy Greenwald:But that was because that's because as you educated me last week this is the era No dragons. No dragons but still Targaryen rule before things start to really.

1:01:40Chris Ryan:Though I guess Arian thinks he is a dragon.

1:01:43Andy Greenwald:Yes. His name is Arian. Yeah. And he wants to rule a nation.

1:01:46Jim Dycker:He is one of five people to see Melania this weekend. That's what I was going to say. He would

1:01:52Andy Greenwald:he's met his moment. A couple other details about the episode. Before we get into the plot, just another meta observation. The two things that you're not supposed to do in show business if you want to have a successful or long career is work with children or animals. And the entire first section of this episode is a young boy yelling at a horse who is just nodding along and giving, honestly, really good performance.

1:02:16Jim Dycker:Good horse performance by Thunder. Good horse performance.

1:02:19Andy Greenwald:So is there anything that these guys can't do? Very remarkable. I wanted to shout out Dan Romer. Yeah, he's jamming. Who's jamming. He's a great, great composer. Station Eleven, many other things.

1:02:31Chris Ryan:Did you teach your kids the Alice song after you watched this episode?

1:02:35Andy Greenwald:I didn't. I didn't. No, luckily they're now more done like Gilmore Girls at the moment. Which is funny because Gilmore Girls is just, this is not a spoiler, really rife with early 2000s pop culture references. Yeah. Children are at sea. But guess who's there to pick them up In the great big boats of trivia knowledge.

1:02:54Chris Ryan:Mr. Phantom Planet. Exactly.

1:02:56Andy Greenwald:But yeah, the fiddle in the opening of this episode, he's doing really fun, creative work that again is like a subtle indication of how the show is not Game of Thrones. Yes. The music is of a world, but they're being creative and creating a different atmosphere with it. It's just very thoughtfully done. A lot of shitting on the show.

1:03:18Chris Ryan:A lot of crapping, a lot of ribald jokes. But I mean, like Game of Thrones itself,

1:03:24Jim Dycker:tossing kids out of windows and brothers and sisters having sex, you know, it's like, it's a pretty racy world.

1:03:30Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

1:03:31Jim Dycker:As is the one we live in, apparently.

1:03:33Andy Greenwald:Apparently, as we've learned. Yeah, I guess the only other thing.

1:03:39Chris Ryan:It's 30 minute show, so it's like, it's kind of like they eat bacon, egg and cheese sandwiches and hang out. Yeah, but I had a question about that too. Okay.

1:03:45Andy Greenwald:I love, you know, we spent a decade.

1:03:48Chris Ryan:Joe had a problem with the bread to protein ratio.

1:03:51Andy Greenwald:Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, she's right. But second, we spent 10 years covering Game of Thrones, and all I wanted to do was just linger in the spice markets of Essos. I really wanted a little more, like a hot pie. So you said. Bring him back. Yeah. You know. Do you think they have salt? They have salted, all the salt that I know that they have goes on the beef in order to have a single thing to eat most days. But then when they were cooking those eggs, and like in the bread, like I think it just needs a little, do you think they're seasoning it?

1:04:22Jim Dycker:I don't know. I doubt it. I don't know like what that protein, like what that meat was. I assume like Westerosi ham.

1:04:31Andy Greenwald:It reminded me a lot of what I was, an article I read this weekend about Dan Orlovsky's diet. It's just chicken tenders, isn't it? It's just chicken tenders and no fruit flavor to anything other than fruit.

1:04:43Jim Dycker:That's, I mean, he looks great.

1:04:45Andy Greenwald:I know, he looks great. Also, maybe his life's simpler. I don't think he had to line up a curve.

1:04:50Chris Ryan:To never have to think about what you want to eat. Except when you go to a rice restaurant and you're like, can you make me chicken tenders?

1:04:55Andy Greenwald:He goes to a steakhouse. Every restaurant, a lot of restaurants have kids' menus. That's true. I think that's fine. I don't think he was worried about, I don't think he had FOMO when he saw the pickled nasturtium flowers on the Noma Courage bagels pop up. You know what I mean? I think he was like, I'm good. What a deep crap. You dug that one out. That was great. I made it. I don't think that's what it was. But it probably was.

1:05:14Jim Dycker:So the new episodes of these shows will be going up Friday. I don't think you and I are going to be doing a special emergency episode to cover them on Friday. We'll cover them on Monday after the Super Bowl. But we'll be back on Thursday to discuss The Pit.

1:05:28Chris Ryan:And I might ask you to check out Steel. Oh, I've been hearing talk about this. It was pretty good. I watched the first two episodes and I'm like, this is kind of what I want from TV.

1:05:39Jim Dycker:What is it? It's Sophie Turner plays a woman working at an investment bank that gets robbed in a very spectacular way. That's fun. Opening episode is a really great heist. And then there's a sort of spiraling out conspiracy of sort of bad guys and good guys. And it brings in the government. It brings in cops. It brings in, but she's sort of this central like Hitchcockian in over her head figure in the whole thing.

1:06:09Andy Greenwald:And what services providing? It's on Amazon Prime,

1:06:11Chris Ryan:which I think has been doing some great programming recently.

1:06:13Andy Greenwald:Theatrical and at home. Yeah. We should tell the people, I think this is smart by you. I mean, you are generally, you know, you're pretty private about your portfolio and your holdings. But I do believe you were well positioned in Sophie Turner's stock. I feel like you bought early and you held on. You know what it was? Is that right?

1:06:33Chris Ryan:I didn't really, I just thought she was full. Because of her sausage content. She was fine. That's, to be clear, her reviewing sausages on Instagram,

1:06:42Jim Dycker:which she only did briefly, but she discussed on The Dish with Angela Hartnett, the chef. She has a show in England, a podcast, but it's basically a TV show, aren't they all? Where Nick Grimshaw and Angela Hartnett, they prepare a meal as sort of requested by a celebrity, and then they interview them while they're eating. It's quite charming. Sophie Turner is hilarious on it. She just seems like a great hang.

1:07:07Chris Ryan:she does she is super English in that she's just like I like a bolognese and otherwise just like a spag bowl a spag bowl and a curry I mean that's alright I rate that that's her Dan Orlovsky menu I just think

1:07:22Andy Greenwald:I just am I am I'm genuinely like I think it's impressive when you commit and then you hold your position you don't get wavered I mean I don't know

1:07:30Jim Dycker:I don't really know much about her other than like I enjoyed her in this show and

1:07:36Andy Greenwald:And you're in Tomb Raider? And Tomb Raider, yeah.

1:07:39Jim Dycker:Obviously, Lara Croft's a huge character for me.

1:07:41Andy Greenwald:Always has been. Yeah. Back to the original consoles that she was on, right? You were like, finally.

1:07:47Chris Ryan:I've never played Tomb Raider.

1:07:48Andy Greenwald:My representation of both womanhood and archaeology.

1:07:51Chris Ryan:I was too busy with Max Payne, my brother.

1:07:55Andy Greenwald:You played, like, oh, right, Max, that was your solo journey when you were just like, we didn't like call each other then. We didn't have cell phones. The next day at the bar, you'd be like, I was in the dark and a baby was crying.

1:08:04Chris Ryan:That was the closest I've ever come to the McConaughey smoking in True Detective Meme, because I was actually smoking, looking for the sounds of a baby in a dark room in Max B.

1:08:15Andy Greenwald:And did Rishi stay with you the whole time? Yeah, but he may not have been there. You know what I mean? Who knows? We should have a name for this part at the end of the podcast where we just talk about what we want to talk about.

1:08:23Chris Ryan:Yeah, we could call it The Watch After Dark if you want. Freestyle 5? I don't know.

1:08:28Andy Greenwald:I picked up my older daughter from a sleepover, and I was asking, you know, what did you guys do? She was like, we had the best time. You know, we watched... Played Max Payne? No, close. She was like, she was talking about her friend being like further along in Animal Crossing for Nintendo Switch. And she was like, I gotta get... I gotta spend more time playing video games. And I was like, you are my child. And then she was like, oh, and we also played this other game that her friend is really into. And she said the name of it, which escapes me. And she was like, let me tell you about it. And I was like, great.

1:08:56Andy Greenwald:This is... We're alone in the car. We got 11 minutes before you go pick up your sister. And she's like, so you play this woman who goes back to her hometown and and I'm sort of half listening because I was like trying to check the, make sure I was going the right way. And she's like, and then the family, your extended family who live in the house, well, the baby falls off a cliff and you play as the baby going off the cliff. And then the next thing you know, you wake up and then you're playing the mom who's reacting to the baby who went off the cliff. And then she goes into a closet and she dies in there and you play it while she dies.

1:09:24Andy Greenwald:And then I slowly start to turn to her and I'm like, what is the tenor of this conversation? Because I began the conversation being like, cool, it sounds really creative. But what was the game? it's some like here's the thing

1:09:35Chris Ryan:because Phoebe plays my wife plays games where it's like you go you are solving mysteries inside of a house kind of like there's a few independent ones that are really cool

1:09:44Andy Greenwald:that's fun what was it

1:09:47Chris Ryan:one called like Gone Home or something like that but what was this one called you don't know

1:09:50Andy Greenwald:I'm googling oh I found it it's called What Remains of Edith Finch

1:09:55Jim Dycker:and this is you google this by being like threw a baby off a cliff video game

1:09:59Andy Greenwald:Nintendo game Edith dead family What's it rated? I'm the king of Google, by the way. That was elite. What is it rated? Yeah. Are you concerned about your morals or the morals of my child?

1:10:14Chris Ryan:No, I'm just wondering how they got access to it. Or like if you have to like, was it in just the regular Nintendo stream store or whatever? Stream store.

1:10:22Andy Greenwald:It's made by Annapurna. Shout out the Ellises. They got the finger in every pie. It's rated teen for blood, drug references, language, and violence.

1:10:32Chris Ryan:So it sounds like she's made a stronger stuff than you. I just can't. Maybe I can start programming some of her movie nights.

1:10:40Andy Greenwald:Honestly, you should. But second.

1:10:42Chris Ryan:Ever seen Greenberg?

1:10:43Andy Greenwald:And I'm like, ever seen Greenberg? Do a double feature. The other thing, this is from my parent corner that I want to run by you that really blew my mind. And I know for people who have older kids or people who maybe are parenting better, they may be aware of this already. But my younger child was like looking at YouTube, which is already a slippery slope. and I realized that every video that she watches has a like joking interviewing the cast of Stranger Things component but is generally then a split screen of someone playing Roblox like turning into squirrels and walking into walls. And I was like, so are they commenting on each other?

1:11:18Andy Greenwald:And she's like, no, it's just something different to look at while I listen.

1:11:22Chris Ryan:Listen to the Stranger Things?

1:11:23Andy Greenwald:Like both, they are now, like future generations are going to have wonky eyes because most of their YouTube content is different. We're so doomed.

1:11:32Chris Ryan:Yeah. That said, maybe on Netflix,

1:11:35Andy Greenwald:they could run the rewatchables on half of the screen, press box on the other half of the screen.

1:11:39Chris Ryan:How often, though, like for instance, when you're doing something or watching something or having conversations with your daughters about their video game content, are you also looking at Gamecast?

1:11:51Andy Greenwald:You really know how to hurt a guy. I thought you meant looking at a beautiful new edition from the New York Review of Books. Different than the newspaper, of course. publication. How often am I looking at GameCast? How often are you

1:12:04Jim Dycker:second screening your life?

1:12:07Andy Greenwald:To the degree to which I no longer remember anything, as evidenced by the In Memoriam segment of the Grammys last night, where I was like, oh, damn, about people who left us six weeks ago. I would say I'm probably doing it to a worrying degree. You check out any Grammys?

1:12:23Jim Dycker:No. Couldn't care less.

1:12:25Andy Greenwald:That's not for you. It was amazing that the Best New Artist category is just all TikTok.

1:12:30Jim Dycker:Turnstile one, I saw that.

1:12:31Andy Greenwald:Not Best New Artist.

1:12:32Jim Dycker:Rock album, right?

1:12:34Andy Greenwald:Yeah, but they don't show those during the broadcast. That's great.

1:12:37Jim Dycker:Why would you? That's because all the real heads are in Boston.

1:12:39Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

1:12:41Jim Dycker:Watch fucking Angel Dust.

1:12:44Andy Greenwald:Wow. Kai, what's the oldest sounding segment we've ever done on this podcast? This is pretty fucking cutting edge.

1:12:52Chris Ryan:We're talking about indie gaming. Yeah, but we're talking about it from a perspective.

1:12:56Andy Greenwald:I'm sorry. I'm talking about it from a perspective of what are they doing? What is this poison entering my kids? Not that it's not a beautiful game, but I'm like, I don't.

1:13:03Chris Ryan:In three years, you'd probably be like, I'd play that with you. You're just not ready for her to grow up yet. That's beautiful. Wow. Damn. Just hit me in the heart. I'm just saying. But you could go full Simmons and be like, if you're into that, let's watch Poltergeist. Let's watch Halloween.

1:13:22Andy Greenwald:But I don't want to watch this. But that said, this is also the same child who, you know, first of all, they're going to get into what they're going to get into as we are evidence of it. It works out.

1:13:32Chris Ryan:As Jim Dyker explains.

1:13:34Andy Greenwald:Yeah, we're all in a ghost ship. Might as well have some fun. It was a very memorable hike, which is something, you know, we do here in California for those not here. And like, like on a holiday and my daughter was like, I finished, I finished the book series that I've been reading. I loved it. And I was like, oh, tell me about it. And she's like, well, it's called The Hunger Games. And I was like, cool. And then she went on to tell me like I kind of knew the talking points but I didn't know the detail to which every person is savagely killed in the book and I think she was eight she refers to the last Harry Potter book as the one where 54 people die

1:14:07Jim Dycker:did you not experience death as a child like in terms of like what you read didn't you read comic books where like Genosha happened

1:14:15Andy Greenwald:look at you

1:14:17Chris Ryan:look at you this is your fucking secret it's not a secret you want to talk it out I'm almost done

1:14:24Andy Greenwald:you but yeah but you play some powers man you play the comic book video game stuff very artfully

1:14:31Chris Ryan:look man honestly after reading epstein emails for most of the weekend i might just go back to

1:14:35Andy Greenwald:red dead redemption and reading x-men i think it's a i think it's better choice tapping out no i i am with you in the sense that i actually don't feel they're gonna experience culture and it's within limits, it's okay. And they seem fine.

1:14:53Chris Ryan:I try to think if I have anything equally amusing to share with you. Just life observations. I'm getting pretty frustrated with dog walkers in Los Angeles. Whoa! I feel like we've really hit such a huge problem with just the volume. Every person has a dog now, it seems like, and they all basically walk down my street. and I don't know what I hate more. Like the half-hearted attempts to pick their shit off of what constitutes my lawn, which is like the piece of green that is outside of my house or the fact that every single one of them walking their dog is completely ignoring stop signs and will just like walk into intersections no matter what while looking at their phone.

1:15:40Chris Ryan:And I just need you guys to do better. Help me help you, not hit you with my car.

1:15:46Andy Greenwald:this is again incredible because the pivot from I went to a hardcore festival this weekend to yelling at pedestrian this is why like

1:15:52Chris Ryan:you know

1:15:53Andy Greenwald:you can tame multitudes

1:15:54Chris Ryan:LA also makes me feel empty it's like the quotidian problems that I have when I come back here versus like you know I fought the cold to go see Tiger Shaw you know

1:16:03Andy Greenwald:yeah but you don't like people long term listeners know that you have an issue with people running wild in your neighborhood driving too fast that was a whole thing once I got in trouble for that

1:16:12Chris Ryan:oh right God chased me down because he said I blew through a stop sign I was like I slowed down. It's a California roll.

1:16:18Andy Greenwald:Is that allowed?

1:16:20Chris Ryan:Like the California stop? Yeah. Is it like California sober? Come on. You know what this is.

1:16:26Casey Bloys:I've gotten a traffic ticket for California stopping. Yes.

1:16:30Chris Ryan:They got a lot of stop signs here, man.

1:16:32Casey Bloys:With good reason.

1:16:33Andy Greenwald:Society keeps telling us to go, go, go. Why not use that time? That's what Karen Bass is doing. Just slow down. Put the second screen away, man. Just be present in your life. Think about that Malcolm Jamal Warner was lost.

1:16:45Chris Ryan:There might be another Giannis podcast out there that you haven't listened to.

1:16:48Andy Greenwald:Don't get me started on that.

1:16:50Chris Ryan:Oh, yeah. We didn't talk about PG. Yeah.

1:16:53Andy Greenwald:What do you think?

1:16:55Chris Ryan:I can't comment. I can't comment.

1:16:58Andy Greenwald:Because you know the truth? No, I don't know.

1:17:00Chris Ryan:And I just feel like it's all too vague. You know what I mean? I wouldn't want to be like, how dare he betray us? So you're speaking about for people who are uninteresting.

1:17:07Jim Dycker:Paul George is an important piece of the Philadelphia 76ers renaissance that we're experiencing. He was fucking good the other night.

1:17:14Andy Greenwald:Which is why they immediately drug tested him. Yeah, but like he said... I was questioning Renaissance, but yes, he has been playing well.

1:17:21Jim Dycker:Paul George got suspended for 25 games for taking an illegal substance. And in his statement was just like, I have been working on my mental health.

1:17:29Andy Greenwald:Yes.

1:17:29Jim Dycker:And was not diligent in checking certain things. And I accept full responsibilities for my actions. You can speculate all you want about what that means in relationship to getting a drug violation. but yeah um yeah there's a lot of conspiracy thinking about this

1:17:46Andy Greenwald:because it saved the money and the luxury tax I think

1:17:48Jim Dycker:but like it also takes Paul George relatively off the board as a trade piece I don't want I don't want those trades to happen

1:17:53Andy Greenwald:I I just think that it's a it's a relatively relatable mistake that he didn't read the fine print on the back of the mojito flavored zins so which is also why you're not playing in the league anymore I might add

1:18:06Jim Dycker:I keep getting served like somebody I'm obviously I know why I'm getting served this, but it's like pouches that are not nicotine, but are like pure focus. And I'm like, what's in them?

1:18:17Chris Ryan:Yeah. Right. I'm like, should I find out? The slippery slope I'm on is that now

1:18:24Andy Greenwald:70 % of the reels that get suggested to me are just fully Italian cooking videos. Not like, here's how to make pasta, but they're in Italian.

1:18:32Chris Ryan:Oh yeah.

1:18:33Andy Greenwald:I imagine for Italians, which I'm really enjoying. Like I'm kind of, kind of getting the vibe.

1:18:39Chris Ryan:She's sighing over

1:18:41Andy Greenwald:But now, you can end the podcast. I just want to tell you that they're starting to veer a little Turkish. Oh, I know what that means. I don't either. But I'm like, where else is this?

1:18:52Chris Ryan:Like hair transplants or just Turkish food?

1:18:56Andy Greenwald:I just want to know if, yeah, they're like, ah, this is like a beautiful lamb skewer. I imagine I don't speak Turkish, but give me time. Sure. But I wonder what it's the gateway to. Like what's next? Is it having 34 cats? Yeah, or is it soft authoritarianism? I don't know.

1:19:12Chris Ryan:Next time on The Watch,

1:19:13Andy Greenwald:we'll get to the bottom of all of that. Thanks to Kaya. Could we make like a skinny bundle where people can listen to the podcast without this part? Can I add something?

1:19:20Casey Bloys:Yeah, come on, Jesus. New Nancy Meyers movie with Penelope Cruz, Kieran Culkin, Jude Law. Are they actually, they're shooting this this spring, right?

1:19:30Andy Greenwald:Like announced?

1:19:31Casey Bloys:Christmas Day, 27.

1:19:33Andy Greenwald:Have they? Wow. This all just happened while we were recording.

1:19:36Chris Ryan:Kieran Culkin, Penelope Cruz, and who? Jude Law.

1:19:39Andy Greenwald:Jude Law back

1:19:40Chris Ryan:is it Holiday 2

1:19:42Andy Greenwald:were there any plot threads no it's like

1:19:43Chris Ryan:she has like one last I think it's a very it's Bildungsroman

1:19:49Andy Greenwald:like Ella McKay kind of vibes yeah

1:19:51Chris Ryan:no I think it's like it's like there's something about I thought it was

1:19:56Casey Bloys:Emma Mackey is in it too hell yeah brother

1:19:59Andy Greenwald:the Mackey-sance

1:20:00Chris Ryan:I like her I do too yeah it's not her fault

1:20:04Andy Greenwald:you know she made that movie yeah who could have known who among us

1:20:10Chris Ryan:thank you Kaya thank you Kaya thanks chime in whenever especially when we're like in the ninth inning like this

1:20:16Andy Greenwald:do you have anything you'd like to say about like video games or the mutant massacre from the early 90s X-Men comics

1:20:22Jim Dycker:or what you're reading or what you're eating or how you're driving or how he's driving

1:20:26Casey Bloys:I just finished over this weekend Among Friends by Hal Abbott which I did not love okay so no strong rec that is a perfect

1:20:37Jim Dycker:110th minute of the podcast

1:20:39Chris Ryan:It was okay. No, to be like, didn't quite like it. It's a book. Thanks, man. Hey, thanks, brother.

1:20:45Jim Dycker:Thanks to Kai. Thanks to Kai. Thanks to our listeners. We'll be back on Thursday. Once the pit drops, we'll be up after that. And we'll have some other stuff for you that night. Can't wait.

1:21:03Casey Bloys:Dear McDonald's, your breakfast menu, fire. Yeah, tens across the board. I could be happy with anything, even though I order the same thing every time. Thanks for not judging me. I'll try something new next time. Maybe. Right now for$6, get a big breakfast with hotcakes complete with a biscuit, sausage, scrambled eggs, and hash browns. Order McDelivery or in the app to save time. Pricing participation may vary. Can I be combined with any other offer? Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. There's a world. where legends race across city skylines. Romance blossoms in glittering ballrooms. And there's magic around every corner.

1:21:47Chris Ryan:It's a world known to many as Great Britain. You've seen the action on screen. Now visit the real star of the show.

1:21:57Casey Bloys:Visit Great Britain. To discover more, go to tripadvisor.com slash Great Britain.