‘House of the Dragon’ Is Back. Was It Worth the Wait? Plus, ‘Star City’ Episode 5.

21:33It just winds up kind of getting away from like, I don't really even know how much money of these shows are supposed to be able to make.

21:38Andy Greenwald:Well, we also don't know what the return on the investment is. We don't really understand what's of value to them and how they monetize it. Especially with something like Netflix, it is so, at least to the layperson, it's totally opaque. They could spend$10 million an episode of The Burroughs, $1 million an episode on The Burroughs, $1,$100 million. I have no idea what that translates to in terms of international subscriber base. And it is, you know, the less cynical version of it is that the show, however successful it was, they have a number that says, or a chart that shows it's not worth the spend in terms of what it's bringing in because the deep, deep, deep Alfred Molina fans either already have Netflix or are never signing up.

22:20Andy Greenwald:So the other thing though, that I think is kind of intrinsic to Netflix's business, and I think this might be a conversation for our eventual crossover episode with The Town because I don't really know the nuts and bolts of this, but a few years ago, Netflix, has a pattern of mimicking the old way of doing things up to a point when it no longer works for their model and then they move on. And what I mean by that is like when the House of Cards era when they were like we are going to Out HBO HBO. Exactly. And plant a flag and win all the Emmys and show what we can do and then you could also call that the Master of None era and then when that then that gave way to the Floor is Lava era when they were just like we're going to make whatever and it's going to work for us because we are going to become all of TV, not just prestige TV.

23:07Andy Greenwald:Five years ago, they got really, really, five, six years ago, they got really, really into the overall business. And they learned Shonda Rhimes and they learned Ryan Murphy and Kenya Barris. And they created a whole new division that was going to service these deals and get as much of these deals as you, as he possibly can. Duffer Brothers were recipients of that largesse. Benioff and Weiss coming off of Game of Thrones were recipients of that. It seems that that shifted slightly. They still do give out rich overall deals. And Ryan Coogler, whose deal with Disney just ended, just got one. He's someone that they want to be in business with.

23:41Andy Greenwald:Sonny, Lee Jung-san, who made Beef and was a guest on our show. He has an overall deal coming off of the success of Beef. Molly Metzler, who made Made, and Sirens has an overall deal with them. So they do make deals that make sense for them. But there's an element of the Duffer Brothers thing that strikes me as a more significant shift in the we made you, you don't make us. We are bigger than any one or two people. It almost would benefit the Duffers to have kind of set up their theatrical business or sold this movie to Paramount and then sign a Netflix deal because Netflix seems fairly kind about Ryan Murphy has plenty of things that are still on terrestrial television.

24:23Andy Greenwald:I think Ryan Murphy is out of the deal and back to FX and Disney. I think you're right, but even while he was at Netflix, he was still working on all of the shows that he had going on. Right, and Grey's Anatomy is still on the air. Right. So it's an interesting gambit from the network that brought us the Queen's Gambit. How about that? Look at the way you did that. Flip button. Your silence is deafening this week. Oh, great. Your silence is deafening on Amazon dumping Luca Guadagnino's artificial due to its open AI partnership. Disgust. I have a lot of feelings Do you really? But I also I don't know if you know I now have to buy cat food regularly and the delivery options provided by Prime Video's parent company are pretty good so I don't want to imperil those Yeah What a Gordian knot we're all tied into these days aren't we?

25:12Andy Greenwald:Okay so talk me through this this movie has been made right? It is I think finished And who's playing? Andrew Garfield plays Sam Altman Okay and it is about I think the earlier days of open AI. Maybe when it was going from nonprofit to for-profit, maybe when there had been some upheaval about whether Altman was going to stay in charge of it. I believe he was briefly relieved of his duties and then raced back in. And I can't remember who, oh, Simon Rich wrote this movie. Sorry, I was just laughing. Do you remember the news stories at that time when like New Yorker had the deeply sourced thing where people were like, the only person who should be in charge of the most disruptive and destructive technology in the history of mankind needs to be the most thoughtful, considerate, fair and balanced moral person.

25:59Andy Greenwald:And Sam Altman is the opposite of every one of these categories. And we're all like, oh, wow. And we turn the page and we're like, what did Hilton Alls enjoy at the theater this week? It's gonna be fine. Yeah. This reminded me a little bit of the story a long time ago on a probably much lower scale in terms of like the, I mean like certainly the level of investment was when Apple had purchased a Gawker show oh they they wrote the show and they were like we're gonna we're gonna make a show about Gawker and we're gonna tell the real story of like yeah Cord Jefferson was writing it former Gawker the outlaw journalism of the 2000s and then it finally got to like Tim Cook and he was like absolutely not like what the fuck were you guys thinking yes there's a little bit of that to of this like it finally got to like Like, so what are you guys putting out in the movie theaters this year?

26:50Let's huddle up. Funny you should say, we've got this crazy little piece of satire. And whoever at the top of Amazon was like, no.

27:00Andy Greenwald:That's an easy no. So it's now up for sale. And I think the sort of second leg of this story has been like, who's passing on it? Who's been passing? I think many people have passed. Many, many, many, many companies have passed. I appreciate the fact that you need cat food. Cat food and toilet paper. So, sorry. I like going to the store, personally. Do you? You support small businesses in your neighborhood, like Target and CVS and all these mom and pops? We've been around the bush too long. I did want to say one thing. Yeah. It is not about Andy Burnham, though. We're going to save that for After Dark.

27:35Andy Greenwald:Oh, I can't wait. It is just that. I think you and I were both caught slightly off guard, not by the fact that the agency returned this weekend, a show that we both love. Oh, this is housekeeping. This is good. This is housekeeping. But that Paramount decided to just drop the entire season. Yes. Which is just wild. So we were planning to dive into what we thought would be one or two episodes later this week. But now it's actually going to make a nice little binge suite on Thursday because all of the agency and all of the bear will be up. And we won't discuss all of them because we are but mortal men.

28:08Andy Greenwald:But we will talk about the beginnings of both the seasons and maybe the larger. Yeah. You know, it was funny. I was at this aforementioned bat mitzvah this weekend, and I had a conversation with another adult bat mitzvah goer about the agency. He was like, you know, I just started watching that. And I was like, lucky for you. Yeah. The whole damn season just came out. The second season just dropped. It was Ted Sarandos, you could say. But the look in his face, it was actually Sam Altman. It's like, I brought your cat food. We're all good. the look on his face was just so informative about like the moment we find ourselves in which was at once a degree of like oh I'm glad it didn't get cancelled or anything but also like shit so now I have 18 hours of television to watch and I was like well at your leisure you know like whatever next time you're on a flight but the reverse of it is I've waited two years to get the House of the Dragon episode that feels like it should have been the finale for season two and there's no right way anymore except for the pit it's just like it's true yeah there really is just no right way to do it only one this episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from wells fargo that's a mouthful but that's because it packs a lot in earn unlimited two percent cash rewards on purchases with it big or small so whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee it earns unlimited two percent cash rewards on purchases.

29:36Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a two percenter. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash Active Cash. Terms apply. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? ZepBound Terzepatide may be able to help. ZepBound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. ZepBound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. ZepBound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines.

30:22It is not known if ZepBound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop ZepBound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia.

30:54If you're nursing pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking ZepBound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbounce.lily.com. So let's talk about House of the Dragon, which returned after two years off the air. It doesn't feel that way in some ways because the Game of Thrones content machine always spins, and we had Night of the Seven Kingdoms, which we both adored. I talked about this episode of House of the Dragon, and I will talk about the rest of them with Mal and Joe, and it's always a joy to talk about this whole creative world with them because they're so knowledgeable and also so emotionally connected to so many characters and so many events.

31:46Andy Greenwald:I also loved walking in the hallways here in the studio. The animal pelts and candles that you use are lining. The set deck, everything about it. So I want to throw the ball to you and find out, You know, whether you came back to Westeros with any trepidation, I have opened up the door that we do not need to do this every week. I think you're at your best when you're happy about your work. Thanks, man. Do you think that was what they said to Keir Starmer over the weekend? That's right. Listen, you don't lead with joy anymore. Yeah, we're going to see that guy fucking DJing at Primavera next year, and we're going to be like, man.

32:20He's going to be so happy.

32:20Andy Greenwald:We didn't know how good we had it. it'll be like the Fred again set and he brings out Mike Skinner, brings out Underworld and brings out Keir Starmer. And then the whole vibe just kind of shifts. I don't want to lead with faint praise, but this is genuine praise in that they've really figured out how to make this show and the production values and the visual inventiveness and just the power of the images. and frankly, yes, praising the post and the vis effects of the water and the dragons and the intensity of the performances are exceptional. Yeah. And I also appreciate, I feel like I need to come up with a word maybe in its native German to talk about the way that we've been talking about shows, which is talking about like the bones and the heart of them.

33:09Andy Greenwald:The bones of the show, what Ryan Condal and his writing team have finally reached after, you know, I think even they would say like a challenging growth process, is a storytelling rhythm that both works for the show and is very specific to the show. So you get a few of the backroom scenes. You get the way that they do exposition, where it's just like, I will introduce a character briefly, but he must have one interesting aspect of him, such as sniffing perfume, as James Norton does, or we'll give Corliss one minute to uncork an old, old bottle of whiskey called Live Forever. Yes. In order to, you know, but fighting for real estate isn't just something we do here in Los Angeles, Chris.

33:54Andy Greenwald:It's something you got to do. It's not just something Sam Levinson believes in. Truly, deeply. It's something that you have to do when you are adapting something this big. So I appreciated the machinery of the show. And I think that but I remain frustrated by things that I have, you know, that I honestly am at peace with. And I we can get to them. And I'm sure we will, because I think we should probably talk more about the larger sway of it. But I do want to say that hidden in this show and very much in this episode are two strands that I deeply believe are two of the most interesting stories that I have ever heard in the world of Westeros.

34:31Andy Greenwald:And it is glass half full, glass half empty, if you want to look at them as how great that we have them here. Or half empty in the sense of, man, I wish that the show was one of these things specifically and not just this larger. one is the Aegon and Larys road trip which I both love for the performers but also because those characters arcs within this show have had a a breath of storytelling movement that make them more compelling than Rhaenyra who basically is angry in this room and then angry in that room that's no shade on the character or the actor that's just the limitations of what the character has to do much like Matt Smith spent all of last season talking to a magic tree the Aegon and Tom I'm going to get his name wrong.

35:17Andy Greenwald:Glenn Carney. Tom Glenn Carney, who is one of the best actors on the show. The idea of a spoiled princeling king who is brought so low and then wandering in the world is a really cool and interesting story for a show that places so much emphasis on the, on usually the reverse trajectory of the guy, Henry IV's rise. Exactly. Yeah. So that alone would be an interesting TV show. The other one, and again, I'm not speaking about how it's been executed on House of the Dragon because we haven't seen that much of it yet, but the low-born dragon rider storyline is such a sick story. And I wish, I'm sorry, I promise I won't do this for an entire season, I wish that was a show.

36:01Andy Greenwald:I wish there was a show about more complicated more frankly to me more interesting but also more narratively flexible characters who are written in the history books becoming major players in a world do you think that specific take and maybe both of them in some ways because you know what both of those ideas that you're talking about feel very naturally like they could have happened in Night of the Seven Kingdoms yes right like a group of low born guys who are bequeathed great power out of this random birthright that they have. Or a sadistic prince who then is castrated and defaced and is left to wander the countryside with his kind of Richard III compatriot.

36:54Both of those things feel like they could be things that happened in the Ira Parker version of this universe. I don't knock them for making the show about Rhaenyra and Alyson. I think that that is a powerful central relationship. But I do wonder, you know, because this is such a strange adaptation. It's an adaptation of the Game of Thrones version of like Wikipedia kind of or like a history book. It's a history book. So I think that there has been some embellishment and there's been obviously like, I don't know that they have as much dialogue to work from. A lot of the scenes are like two people say this happened, but one person say it didn't, you know.

37:39But it's interesting that you're getting some light electric charges from like these side plots and not from this. What I think Condal and company would say is the central conflict.

37:51Andy Greenwald:That's the thing. Like, I think there's been growing pains, certainly for me and maybe for some aspect of the audience in the transition of Game of Thrones from a show into a universe, into an IP universe. And we're not used to yet talking about Westerosi content the way we are with Star Wars content, where we can say Andor is one of the greatest television shows of our lifetime, and also Obi-Wan happened. You know, you can say that one is for you, and one is maybe for other, and charitably one is for other people, and that's fine. They both can exist on the same streaming platform. We are maybe heading towards that faster than I realized.

38:29Andy Greenwald:Like when I was watching this episode and I am admittedly not a deep, deep student of this game and I have not been rewatching it or like even remembering a great deal of it, to be frank. This is not for me at this point. the amount of factual depth that is required to follow the show and to be invested in a show where, what's her name, Lothar? Lohar. Lohar, who is awesome and an awesome character. And I certainly remembered her, and I certainly remembered that performance. But her fury and animus towards Corliss is entirely a footnote on the Wikipedia of the show. I am going to disrupt all of these plans and hunt down the one man who has been ruling the seas cruelly because he killed the crab feeder or whatever so there is a I'm not saying it wasn't on screen but I'm saying the emotional drive for it and it's played in the performance but I would that's not the storytelling I want to watch and I think that the thing that I have continued to struggle with and then I do want to open it up but I finally think I understood more of this episode is that House of the Dragon is a limited series and what I mean by that is it is in the same way this is grandiose but like Chernobyl was about a historical event with rich dramatization and good production values and direction and it focused in and told us a story that had some narrative flexibility within you know some creation and what it chose to show us but it couldn't change what happened in building six or whatever it was Our reception of Chernobyl would have been quite different if it had been instead of six episodes over six weeks, if it had been four seasons over six years.

40:15Sure.

40:16Andy Greenwald:I think that the relationship that I have and that maybe some people have with TV over time is that, well, we're going to live and grow with these characters and maybe be surprised by them. And the nature of the show is it's telling us a story. and I do think that I would feel differently about it if I was binging it three years from now in total or if they had been able to, and this is not their fault, shorten the production window so you could understand that they're telling us a wild tale of some monstrous kings and queens and their dragons. Yeah, I think obviously, I think because of the strikes in COVID or whatever the sort of delay was and then some budgetary concerns about season two and whatever the reason was, they were not able to end season two with what this first episode of season three was.

41:00Yes, which clearly was meant to be part of. And now I will get explicit about spoilers for this episode. So obviously I can't imagine you're listening to us if you haven't watched this. But this episode ends with Jace Targaryen, Rhaenyra's son, locking his mother in a room, taking her place on a mission to go save the fleet against the Triarchy, and gets killed. He gets killed in the process. the image of his body sinking into the ocean would have been an incredible way to end that second season.

41:33Andy Greenwald:And the dragon sinking. And I think it actually would have both put a bow on the second season and set up the third season in a really good way because one of the things that's been sort of, you know, I admittedly haven't really watched ahead, nor do I really plan to on this, but one of the things that's been interesting about reading the TV critics hit this show, and they're largely very positive or at least saying like, this is kind of echoing you and saying this is the best version of this show. Yeah, I would agree with that. Is that there's a lot of thematic stuff that I think is fairly obvious, I guess, in the show, but it doesn't feel earned sometimes for me.

42:14And that is, I've talked about this before, but like, you know, there's a lot of stuff about what war leaves behind in its wake, what would happen if these kinds of nuclear weapons were flying around in the skies and some of them were wild and untrainable and some of them were being ridden by people who maybe had mixed loyalties or were only loyal to themselves. And, you know, the idea that these flights of fancy about who should sit in what is, I think one of the best sort of creations of the show is just how lonely, uncomfortable, and undesirable the Iron Throne is.

42:53Andy Greenwald:I don't see, it's not worth anything. But it's kind of great. Like, it's like even, you know, the idea that like, who wants to sit on this thing? Like, who would want the responsibility? I do think that the flaw of the show is because it has so much heavy lifting to do with these families and with these sides of an argument or an argument of conflict. there's not as much 360 feel for the world of Westeros that makes you feel like oh the guys on this battlefield or the person on that boat who just got burned alive like mattered in this world like there is a little bit of inevitable you have to have red shirts you have to have people who are just going to be cannon fodder and so sometimes I feel like the the themes or the ideas of the show don't quite connect with me emotionally, if that makes sense.

43:44Yes. That's my major criticism of it. I think I'm pretty pot committed to like watching them play this out. But I see a lot, like, you know, both of your sort of like, these are the things I like are both things that I like too.

43:58Andy Greenwald:And they're on the show. So I also think that the unquestionable success of Night of the Seven Kingdoms proves the, it's proof of concept of the argument that Casey Bloys and his development team probably litigated intensely internally and then had to explain to the revolving doors of corporate leadership they've had over the last few years that we can be able stewards of this incredibly valuable franchise that we have because we can tell different shaded stories. And I think part of the reaction to this new season of House of the Dragon is unquestionably they know how to do a good version of the show now.

44:36Andy Greenwald:And like Ryan Condal, but also Lonnie Perister, who got started on, not started, but did great work on Banshee years ago, a show that I love, which has turned out to be like a real breeding ground not just for talent like Jonathan Tropper, but Greg Yatanis, who directed on the show on Dragon as well. I mean, did an incredible job with it. The point being that House of the Dragon was unfairly bearing the heavy weight of the crown as the only version of Game of Thrones, post Game of Thrones. And now that they've proven that we can see a lighter version, a more humane version, a more whimsical version of the story at the same time, it feels like a more balanced presentation.

45:17Andy Greenwald:What this episode specifically did, I was watching with some amusement because if you, I wish we could be a fly on the wall of the conversations that Michael Lombardo and the previous regime of HBO were having when Game of Thrones premiered and they were agonizing over the pilot and they were agonizing over whether this is an even HBO show at all. And I imagine a lot of the direction was, oh my God, we got to tone down the dork shit to keep the Boardwalk Empire fans happy. We got to convince them. And really they were appealing to the, you know, the fucking, the Clark Kent version of the HBO fan like me.

45:55Andy Greenwald:It was like, well, I don't know if this is worth my time. And so they downplayed a lot of the, um, I mean, they made reference to things, but there weren't dragons yet. And there wasn't this sense of like, Like you, to watch the show, you need to understand, not just on an emotional level, but on a factual level, who represents what and where they're coming from. To the point where you introduce James Norton as a high tower. And I'm like, right. Okay. Let me just sort of dig deep and remember. And I do remember that this is the Alicent and her father, who's now the chief designer on Star City.

46:28Andy Greenwald:That's right. Resafe. but that it is now this version of game of thrones is completely the version that they were worried about 15 years ago. And there's room for it. They've earned that. And the fans that the hardcore hardcore fans love it. And the people who aren't watching TV necessarily the way I am, but are like to add to my diet, it would be nice to have a burned slab of mutton dropped on my lap every Sunday in Dragonfire, and here you go. It is an excellently made thing that I feel fine about. You made a reference to the Star Wars universe a little while ago that this thing can't leave my head now, where I kind of do wonder whether in some ways the Targaryens have become the Jedis of Game of Thrones.

47:14I love this.

47:15Andy Greenwald:Go. Cook. Both of those franchises refuse to go past a certain point, right? Like after the sequels got rid of all of the legacy characters in some shape or form, you kind of end it. I kind of honestly don't really remember how Rise of Skywalker ends. But, you know, we end Game of Thrones. Did you hear that somehow Palpatine returned? I do remember that part, but I just don't remember where like various characters went off. Like did Rey. You remember Chewbacca lived. I sure fucking did. But we, you know, Game of Thrones, John's beyond the wall. What's going to happen next? and it's like... Let's tell that story.

47:50Well, it's not even that, but I'm just sort of like, I don't remember who's king in that. Oh, what's his face?

47:56Andy Greenwald:Bran the Broken. Who has a better story than that? Now, I know that George has to finish these novels first before he tells us what might happen next. But I think it's interesting that the Game of Thrones TV world is, you know, looking backwards and using the text that George has provided. And in some ways, Star Wars is doing the same thing where it's like, let's use the established canon and continue to tell stories that are adjacent to the Force, with the exception of Andor. You know, let's tell stories that are about this, like, almost mystical religion that, you know, controls the universe.

48:33And for the Game of Thrones world, like, the emphasis on the Targaryens in this show is not unlike their emphasis on dragons, because dragons were something that pop up in the first and last episode of the first season and are very selectively, you know.

48:49Andy Greenwald:In which show? Of Game of Thrones. Yeah. They're very selectively shown. Up until the very end. Now, you could say that might be because of the technology or it might be because dragons had been, you know, extinct seemingly and Daenerys brought them back. Kind of like Olivia Rodrigo bringing back Pinkerton, you know? That's after Dark 2 because I really, you got to drop this one on me. My point being is that they are making, like, the show about the thing that is not always like my, the thing I was most interested in. It is not Game of Thrones fault. It is not Star Wars fault that Hollywood, America, all of us are seemingly deeply afraid of peeking into the future and of telling something new.

49:32Andy Greenwald:And that the richest vein that we have found creatively to frack whatever resources we have left is multiversal storytelling. You know, and that will be a conversation for us through the end of the year, in the sense that even like Marvel couldn't move the ball forward past its high point and is now going to try to basically restart itself by devouring its own history tale. Sure. I think the other thing, just a tonal thing, and then I do want to just go through a couple of the characters and plot points because I do want to hear your take on them. Your mileage as a TV viewer may differ. For me, I will always, always prefer the open-ended, holy shit, guys, where are we?

50:13Andy Greenwald:storytelling of Lost, for example, in which it is entirely about the heady excitement of asking questions. Questions that the people who are creating the show don't necessarily know the answers for. They just know what they're interested in chasing and pursuing, and it might be a bumpy path along the way. There is a version of fandom that does not like uncertainty and wants resolution and wants to know, at least know that the creators know the answers and that they can also peek ahead maybe to pre-existing texts or the internet to find out the answers too. And I think my ultimate ongoing and probably unending frustration with House of the Dragon is that it is a show about answers.

50:51Andy Greenwald:It is a locked historical document that they're playing around in the margins in. But I, when I watch the show, feel the frustration of characters on tracks like... Rudeira. Yes, but also like metaphorically, like rides at an amusement park. Sure. They're going to go through these motions to get to a place that they were destined to go. And the challenge, and it is a challenge for the creators, is to making the audience feel the weight of every decision that leads them to their ruin. But it is a much more locked and fixed document, which is why I go back to that idea that if they've been able to tell this story in like two super tight seasons or whatever that came out closely together, I think we'd have a different relationship to it.

51:32Andy Greenwald:And maybe the joke's on me because people like Mal and Joe were like, I can't wait to see this story that we know brought to life. In some ways, it's a very ambitious show. It is. Their decision to do this entire preamble of the two women when they were children, their decision to really try to show the political machinations behind the various rebellions is pretty brave. You know what I mean? It's incredibly challenging. Yeah, it's an incredibly challenging. Let's talk a little bit about this first episode briefly. Like I just thought, you know, to my to my point about the Targaryens is as the Jedis of I didn't even really like get that much.

52:15I was not scandalized by Aemon kissing his mom. I was kind of like, that's just the Targaryen way.

52:20Andy Greenwald:Did you do the Ed Rooney? I feel like we should we should bring that gift back every time I talk about this show. That's how they do things in the family. Yes. What were some of your favorite moments in the episode? Look, you know, I love a naval battle. Master and Commander Rewatchables. Did you think that that was decipherable? I thought they did the—I think that's incredibly challenging. I mean, I could not—I was watching it just marveling over the work, the labor of storyboarding that and understanding it and then communicating it to us on multiple scales. There's the large scale of there are many boats here, and then there's the medium scale of there are boats here and here and also a dragon here.

53:03Andy Greenwald:and then it all crushes it impossibly close when the boats are ramming into each other and people are boarding the boats and then it's hand-to-hand combat. My favorite visual storytelling in it was the dragons touching the water and then being dragged into the water and like the feeling of something that is meant to fly being weighed down was really beautifully communicated and incredibly gripping to watch. As always, I'm always like, but what about that guy? What does he think? He's getting roasted alive. with an oar in his hand. But it was an action episode. And I do think that it was challenging that this was, as you said, most likely meant to be a conclusion and is instead a very rhythmically, tonally odd place to begin.

53:48Andy Greenwald:Now, to go all the way back to my first comment, I love that Ryan Condal's instincts are to start small. Sure. Just to start with, oh, what's her name? Chasing after what's his name? The big dragon that eats meat. Reina. Sure. First of all, I just want to say, in front of you and Kaya and all of our listeners, I've been wondering what was up with Reyna for years. Literally two years. Two years. I've been like, that's a character that I've been tracking. I know who she's related to and what she's doing. So it felt really good as a super fan to understand her relationship also to that dragon. If there was a couple, what were the things that you were like, I don't know what this is or who this is.

54:24Andy Greenwald:Should we cover the show that way? Because do you remember when we did the after show for Game of Thrones? I do. on HBO and we had short-lived still funny we had a category called who the fuck was that right should we kind of broaden that category and bring it back for me just saying what the fuck sure because I feel like now I'm pretty well informed about it I definitely did not remember who she was why she was there and what was up with the dragon that didn't have a saddle I have no memory of that I thought that she was going she had been sent out to the veil with her brothers, I think. Yeah.

55:03And was pretty bummed because she hadn't claimed a dragon yet. I believe Aemond took her dragon. Or jumped on Vhagar and was like, that's my dragon now. That's my guy. I remember that. And yeah, and the Lady Jane of the Vale was kind of like, you can walk through here, but keep walking. Like, I don't want you to stay here. Right. And I think she breaks off from her party at the end of season two and finds a wild dragon. Sheepstealer, I want to say. I feel like that's a he's giving sheepstealer, not Moondancer.

55:43Andy Greenwald:I'm just saying, like, this is the part of the George R. Martin verse that they didn't show to Plepler in New York, in the HBO office in 2012. because if they had walked in and they were like, we got Moon Dancer, we got Sheep Stealer, we have the Battle of the Gullet, he would have been like, first of all, he would have been like, boy, the age of the expense lunch in New York will never end. I love it here at the Four Seasons. I'm sure that'll stay unchanged. But you know what I mean? Like, this is deep lore. I'm just trying to help you out. I appreciate it. I thought that the Battle of the Gullet was cool.

56:19um reyna getting involved probably the wrong move yeah that seems that way um it seems that way

56:29Andy Greenwald:i appreciate it like again as a kind of a noob to this like i like the cheap stealer was like what are we doing we burning folks i only do two things steal sheep and light guys on fire all that sheep you know what i mean like i appreciated that because i have forever been a little bit i've forever struggled with the fact that the dragons are like wild ferocious mythical carnivorous beasts but if you whisper made up latin in their ears they're suddenly like tactical howitzers the one that i did not know that i would have done who the fuck is that and i did do that on uh and talk the thrones was the stark who was the dude who threw the head to daemon yeah i had no idea who that was and apparently we knew who that head was that's the lannister twin one twin was on the boat one twin was in bad day to be a Lannister yeah um we'd met the I mean I remember the one on the boat I enjoyed him all right sure yeah but the one whose head we saw had a speaking part on the show last year I want to say yes do you think the actor got his episodic fee for his latex head being thrown to Matt Smith that's a great question in this day and age of of Hollywood cost-cutting I can't say I imagine we'll be hearing from Casey at HBO after this segment and I wonder if you could just weigh in specifically on that.

57:44I think he's going to be like, just wanted to let you guys know I'm never listening again.

57:46Andy Greenwald:This is what you're done. You're cut off. Anything else you wanted to hit on Dragon? I guess where do you stand? Is this going to be a weekly watch for you? You tell me, Doug. I live to serve. I just, I definitely don't want to, and nor do our listeners, I don't want to keep serving the same thing. I think that there's like, when it's euphoria, there's something perversely fun about watching you lose your mind, but also be like, I can't look away. With this, it's like you've done your time, man. And I think that you will continue to join us for Night of the Seven Kingdom Season 2 and all these things.

58:20I just don't think TV should be a homework assignment. We'll keep them guessing. Let's go to Star City again. We can just hit this relatively quickly, although I will echo my sentiments from last week. If you were watching television and you were not watching this show, you were not watching the best show on television. to me it is is the my my favorite thing that's on currently obviously what is page is concluded

58:42Andy Greenwald:and you haven't watched season two of sugar yet i have i mean i did you fire up the first episode it's up it it is up i've not fired it okay i read i read with like real affection um mike hale's review of it in new york times where he's like isn't it great to have the show back every once in a while you just you're just like i read with real affection. Mike Hales. His review of it, I was like, man, maybe we are too cooked here. Because he was just like, Colin Farrell's back as a detective in LA and it's classy and it's fun to watch. And there was a fun twist in season one. And I was like, man, maybe I got to chill out.

59:18You know?

59:19Andy Greenwald:For sugar, not for dragons though. No, I'm right about that. Anyway, I, I continue to, uh, I will sing star cities praises from the mountaintops. Uh, this was the fifth episode. It was called bite your elbow. Uh, and it is, um, I would probably say like the culmination of some of the espionage molehunt storylines of the first part of this season. And, you know, I guess I wanted to hit how I don't want to keep saying the same thing about these shows. But what it does is play hits in a way that sounds really good to me. multiple scenes in this episode. I'm like, I've seen this before. I've seen the mole get told by his significant other or someone very close to him that everybody is on to them and it's time to run.

1:00:12And yet I thought the Valya Tanya scene outside of the training center was fucking incredible. Now, like, is it goofy how Valya like kidnaps a guy and gets himself onto this space rocket launch? Yeah. For sure.

1:00:27Andy Greenwald:Well, I push back on that. Shows create their own narrative reality. And as soon as Star City puts in play that whoever gets onto this secret mission inside of a bathysphere will be gone for nine months and thus protected from the environments at home and abroad, I knew where the episode was going. The value was going on the ship? The question is how is it going to get there? And I agree with you completely about the familiarity of some of the storytelling. What's delightful is the way that it's deployed. Yes. For example, I did not know that this episode would begin one second after the revelation of the previous episode.

1:01:06Andy Greenwald:I did not know that the moment in which Irina holds all of the information and Valia and Tanya and everyone else do not, many shows would have milked one, two, or three episodes out of that. And seeing how that plays out, this Star City chose to do the opposite. Yeah. And here's the name I'm going to throw out for you. and it might not be familiar if it's not written in Cyrillic. Zach Wheeler. From the Philadelphia Phillies? Yes. And Chris, what I often hear when veteran Zach Wheeler takes the hill is that there's a difference between throwing and pitching. And you can throw, like your boy that you saw in Milwaukee, Mizorowski, who— He was fucking pitching, man.

1:01:48Andy Greenwald:Okay, that's fair. But that dude can throw 104 miles per hour anytime he wants. Zach Wheeler not only has lost a few MPH on his fastball, he's also lost a rib to thoracic outlet syndrome and is still painting the corners because he knows what to do with it. And I think part of the joy of watching Star City is seeing how this creative team is pitching and is keeping us on our toes and surprising us with timing and placement. and more than anything else, as they also say in the non-moneyball versions of baseball, like kids got good stuff. It really does. The scene between Irina and Tanya and the beginning of the episode, the scene where Irina gets, Irina gets caught by her annoying coworker and then flips it on her.

1:02:42All the stuff with Sasha and Anastasia was quite lovely. like these are all scenes that I feel like you know I've been kind of echoed throughout time and history I did want to ask you about one of the last moments of the episode did you recognize who's in the photo that Tanya grabs there

1:03:01Andy Greenwald:uh was that Brezhnev? Yeah is that my guy Leonid? Is he the father? Yeah yeah we're playing now yeah this is crazy I mean it's not crazy it's just that was the Russian premiere. Do you think Apple, the network executives, were like, could we just get an ADR of her going, my God. That's Leonid Brezhnev. That's Leonid Brezhnev. Somehow Brezhnev has returned. Somehow Brezhnev has returned. I love that. I also want to shout out just, again, in the spirit of it's like, it's really how you deploy the story that you have. The direction of the show is beautiful. This is, Cassia Adamic directed this. I'm not familiar with her, but as part of my fully tongue-in-cheek now Nepo watch, she is Agnieszka Holland's daughter.

1:03:45Andy Greenwald:I have to say. The great Polish director. She directed the shit out of this. Yeah. And it's like largely handheld. There's a shot. Here's my pure cinema award of the day. But there's the moment when Irina is deleting the tapes that have her saying that she's going to help Tanya escape. And she has this whole plan to get her a day pass and everything. and her office mate, I guess not mate, like not friend at all, played by, who's Yegorovka is her name, played by Elliot Salt. She's watching. But the way that the camera notifies us of this is it tracks, and this is like the long secretarial pool essentially of Building 12.

1:04:27Andy Greenwald:Irina leaves and then the camera stays and then it slowly tracks back up to see who did or didn't notice her leave. And it is such a beautiful, natural example of visual storytelling of a paranoid state but even in that that case it's like yeah if she's done this once she's not going to get away with it the second time but like the fact that she built a file on valia that she was willing to sacrifice valia for tanya's escape why is she so enamored with tanya does she have romantic feelings for her is it just infatuation with her free spirit what is it that we're going to find out about her but um it's an exciting moment because I don't for as much as I'm like well I've seen that before and I've seen that before but it's done very well I don't really remember a moment where uh a American mole is in a spaceship that's not really a spaceship with two new Russian well one Russian cosmonaut and then a woman who's never been in space before and they're going to be up in space for nine months uh the chief designer is okay with part of that plan but does not know that's an American mole then Irina knows like everything but is only telling her superior some of it just a lot of like moving pieces and it's a very exciting setup for the second half of the season.

1:05:43Andy Greenwald:And all of this is in service of a plot line that involves sending people to Venus which did not know was a cool goal to have. Have done a little light Googling. Does not seem particularly hospitable to human life. We can't say though. No, I think we can definitively say. No, but we can't say because we haven't been, right? Oh, I don't think it's the same as me being like, I've heard Southern Italy is nice, but hot. Yeah. I've yet to prove it. I mean, there is the line when the dude's like, I shall be the one to plant the Soviet flag. And they're like, you would explode. Your body would explode in flames.

1:06:25Andy Greenwald:It is a, I mean, what is the most off book thing that you've ever done when in the employ of someone else. Because whatever it is, I don't think it equals sending three cosmonauts to fucking Venus at the expense of like three billion rubles. Like, because the point is they're launching this vessel and then at some point in the nine months, chief designer is going to say to old Leonid or his, you know, his close proxies. He's going to say like, I had a secret mission to Venus that I had to do so secretly because the Americans were surrounding us and starting to get information about Star City. So to take this great next leap for the Soviet space program, I alone did this.

1:07:07Don't blame anybody else. And then what's going to happen when they find out actually an American spy is on that ship?

1:07:13Andy Greenwald:What is the equivalent movie that you and I would do for the rewatchables in a pirate recording and then put up when Bill is on vacation? I mean, we did it with Kicking and Screaming. No, I'm well aware, but I'm just like, that was a sanctioned mission. Yes. Is there something that you and I would, I mean, would it just be Born Legacy? Like, what is the most... Yeah, it would probably be Born Legacy at this point. Or what if it was like, can you imagine doing the rewatchables categories on the early filmography of Hal Hartley? Honestly, from Hal Month, we're not that far away. From Hal Month? Wow.

1:07:48You do your best work at the end of the podcast. Do you want to talk about England having its, the United Kingdom having its sixth prime minister in seven years?

1:07:57Andy Greenwald:or seventh in 10 years. What was our other After Dark segment that we were going to do? Oh, Olivia Rodrigo. Liking Pinkerton. You explain that to me? Well, I guess she did an interview with Anthony Fantano and people were like, music journalism is dead because she... Look at us, we agree. I mean, she's done lots of interviews. I don't know really what the problem is, but... Is it a written interview or a... Video interview where she's just like, I love Pinkerton. And he was like, oh, you're a Pinkerton fan. And people are like, this is... Is Pinkerton still canceled? uh so this is for for for those who are still listening why was pinkerton canceled because it was about it's a creeper record so weezer but i think he knows that right yeah but i but so what i don't understand is this scandal that she's that the fans are like olivia by publicly um sanctioning and supporting rivers cuomo's 30 year old creepy raincoat lust for young asian women in record form, you have thus perpetuated the patriarchy?

1:08:54Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's like, for me, it just sounds really good.

1:08:59Andy Greenwald:The record? Yeah. It's a fucking good record. I'm sorry. Am I not allowed to say that it's a good record? It sounds really good. It's set. Listen, look at the politics. You can't comment on the content of the man's character. Not me. Could be me, dog. I think it's just interesting because Weezer is, not inexplicably like much like the i love it i don't care song weezer's 2015 song on that record it's like you come from japan like isn't it it's like kind of like that's all the songs my guy yes but but much like that i don't care i love it song weezer's otherwise unremarkable 2015 or 2016 duet with um bethany from best coast the song go away uh-huh is there number it's like what happened with pavement with with the you know the a random relatively random song suddenly gets resurfaced when harness harness your hopes yeah so go away so that was up it is a huge tiktok song it is on my daughter's like core playlist okay and they're savvy enough that on their new record they have a very very similar duet with carly right with carly from wednesday yeah and I, of course, I am just fucking every cartoon character with a yard full of rakes.

1:10:17You were like, actually, you know, there's a new Weezer song that's not too dissimilar,

1:10:21Andy Greenwald:and Carly's pretty cool, she's got some tattoos, and maybe we could listen to this. Dead zone. Yeah. Uninterested. But my point being, is the danger that somehow this is going to, like, relitigate the Weezer That was where you became a hard ass, is like, we're not getting out of this car until you respect late period River's quote songwriting. Listen, I'm going to say something. this end of the podcast that I think is just between us, just between us, us mice here. Yeah. And Kaya. Kaya's red in. Yeah. Kaya's Omerta. My older daughter is not in the car. Younger daughter is like, that Vampire Weekend song is pretty good.

1:10:55Andy Greenwald:Oh, wow. So some like every spring, fresh buds bloom. You know what I mean? And then just like one single tear rolled down your eye and you're like, no, it's just allergies. Thank you. That would be the best case. The worst case is, oh, what's on my phone? My 2007 Spin Magazine cover story on Vampire Weekend titled The Graduates. I'll just leave this here in the back seat. You're just playing Roblox. It's fine. It's like, I don't know how to read. I'm watching The Simpsons. Where's the video interview of this? I just want to say my favorite show other than Star City is British politics. Me too.

1:11:33I don't really understand how you guys keep doing this. I think it's cool that you're never satisfied. You never, you're always chasing perfection. Yeah.

1:11:42Andy Greenwald:By the way, happy 10 year anniversary to Brexit. That's right. But Burnham is the king of the north, right? And he is, you know, you form a Manchester mayor and he's riding south to join parliament. And Keir Starmer has stepped down today. To clear the field. And is going to be essentially handing over the reins to him. Now, then Burnham has, what, two more years to run? Yes, before there's a general election, I believe, unless they call it early. Do they do it every four or five years there? I don't understand. I don't understand. I think we're thrown because you can replace them midstream. But if the Guardian writes enough negative articles about you, you'd just be like, I guess I have to stop.

1:12:19Andy Greenwald:I have to stop being here. Should we, Kai, do you want to just patch in Mickey and Conrad and see if they want to weigh in on this? No, I know. I just, I think it's fascinating. Can I say my favorite Andy Burnham fact? Of course. The King of the North coming down. First of all, it is so sick that you can be like, everyone in the Starmerverse has been so afraid of this happening. And in order for it to happen, Andy Burnham had to basically run to be the representative of Montgomery County. Yeah. And just be like, guess I'll just rejoin Parliament for no reason. And then wins a Parliament seat last week.

1:12:53Andy Greenwald:And then gets on the Manchester to London train. Yes. wearing a casual t-shirt, gets off the train wearing a crisp suit, like he stepped into a phone booth. But my favorite detail, Chris, was that the train goes into Euston Station, which is where I was commuting a lot last fall. That was your local? Look, I think it's okay, even as an American, to say that London has some, first of all, trains, they criticize the trains compared to what we live with here. They're allowed to, yeah. That's fine. Yeah. The train stations there, many of them are very beautiful. And even the ones that aren't like necessarily gorgeous, like Paddington, are like incredibly efficient.

1:13:33Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Liverpool Street, bustling, getting it done. Houston is the ass end of the universe. Houston is Penn Station 20 years ago. This is like everybody looking at the board. And then when the board's like, this is with track, it's on 100 ,000 people run. Yes. Yeah. And the soon-to-be prime minister is swanning through that mess, hopefully stopping off for like a Wendy's Good Morning Burger on the way. Bit of a Greggs. Greggs man, you know. He would win. Yeah. See, look at the keen sense. I should get on his team. You should get on the team. Yeah. I feel like there's a lot of people jumping on now.

1:14:09Andy Greenwald:Where were they last week? You're like Aegon, crossing sides. I won't bend my knee, but I'll go over there. All right. It was great talking to you today. This was fun. We'll be back on Thursday with the first few episodes of The Bear. So The Bear drops on Wednesday night, Thursday night? Uh-huh. In any case, we're going to do the first three episodes of The Bear, maybe like a couple episodes at the agency. But we're going to talk about the choices people make to put entire seasons of television up in one night. And fine dining. Yeah. Right? Thank you to Kai. Thank you to Kai. We will be back on Thursday.

1:14:41I hope everybody had a great weekend. We'll see you soon.

1:14:48You