‘Industry’ Season 4 Is Here, and It’s Bolder Than Ever. Plus, the Golden Globes and ‘Landman’ S2E9.

22:28Andy Greenwald:that's just like admittedly concern trolling because I don't think either you or I care about this. And yet, Jeremy Allen White, are we sure? Oh, I'm sure. I mean, I'm sure because he's a wonderful actor and people love him, but I'm just saying he's had to like now sort of show up, get glammed up to lose for the bear multiple times and now to lose for the Springsteen movie a movie which he poured his heart and soul into that was not greeted with hungry hearts let's say. Sure. I think that and now he's going to be a Hutt in your number one 2026. Right? Like he didn't have to get into I bet he mo-capped the worm suit.

23:05Andy Greenwald:You don't think he did? Is this in Grogu? It's Mandalorian and Grogu? MNG. Yeah. We can talk about that if you want to. I don't want to at all. We're going to have to at some point. Yeah. that was really I thought Wando Sykes was really funny um I got two other notes yeah I thought that was awesome Rose Byrne won for again a movie I haven't seen but I'd like to try you're gonna try you're gonna watch if I had legs I'd kick you but you're not gonna watch Hand It before Hand It well which one do you have you seen either of these movies no okay so this is again this is how you stay winning somehow the terms of debate have been set by Mr.

23:41Andy Greenwald:Cool over here wow you're really going to choose that movie I haven't seen over the other movie I haven't seen I haven't gotten to it yet yeah you've been going to parties what have you been doing no I'm watching fucking prestige television well that makes two of us anyway I just I like Rose Byrne a lot as an actor I thought that was awesome I thought it was very sweet because she was so surprised it was a great moment on stage for as she said a small movie winning these things is more meaningful similarly like Bognor Mora who's a really good actor winning for a movie that I also is on my list would love to see Secret Agent I also really appreciated that Rose Byrne thanked her date her brother George Byrne, who's a great photographer.

24:15Andy Greenwald:I have one of his prints. Very talented photographer. You contain multitudes. I'd like to keep a couple things held back. Three things. Your secret little I'm an art guy thing is interesting to me. Because you're not just like I go to museums, but you're like, I like to dabble in collecting. Yeah, when I had an overall deal at Universal, I bought one picture. But sometimes I'll post... It's not like I can afford to go to Max and Helen's. I'll post stuff and you'll be like, did you purchase that? Where'd you see that? I never asked if you purchased that. I asked if you went to see Helen Frankenthaler in MoMA.

24:53Andy Greenwald:I didn't say, did you purchase one of the five artworks hanging in the gallery? Did you? No. Okay. No. Also, I led... That's why I need Jerome Powell to stand fast. I led a stacked podcast with a small teehee admission that I've been enjoying an 800-page German novel from 1951. No one's like, oh, does he like art? Find a new slant. You know what I'm saying?

25:24Anyway, as someone who has also recently been asked to investigate the purchase or adoption of a bearded dragon for the household.

25:32Andy Greenwald:Yeah, what's up? Is that a new thing? is that like a why are kids getting into that classrooms they are they are hardy pets for classrooms so like you know we used to when we were kids we had like gerbils or like guinea pigs yeah now at least in my you know however many years I've been a parent now I should know that number 12 and a half it's lizards exclusively lizards okay and bearded dragons seem like fine lizards they sit there hardy like they can be pet a lot or like no like they don't have to give the death talk too often. You know what I mean? They should see Hamnet. That's what I'm saying!

26:09Keep it separate.

26:11Andy Greenwald:Hamnet, but about Hamnet's pet bearded dragon. We don't know for sure. We don't even know if Shakespeare actually wrote Hamlet. You know what I mean? There's some debate about that. So who's to say that his kid didn't have a bearded dragon? That's lost to the mysteries of time. Too bad there's not an Effingers-like history of the life of the Shakespeare family. I thought that was very sweet, the Rose Byrne thing. And yeah, like the Bagnar Mora winning Best Actor and Secret Agent winning Foreign Film, like... Awesome movie, by the way. That's kind of... You did see it? I did see Secret Agent, yes.

26:45Andy Greenwald:That is kind of what the Golden Globes used to do, both because of the international perspective or whatever it may have been, and the kind of slight element of surprise. And I think that's ultimately good. So I think going into the Oscar nominations, like, oh, is Rose Byrne a player now? Is Bagnar Mora a player now? is does Hamnet have the inside track over sinners in the what is going to be one battle conversation. That stuff's interesting to me. And one battle is awesome. That was really cool when Tiana Taylor won and PTA giving very nice speeches. Speaking of that, speaking of that speech, the PTA speech, how do you say the last name of the man who wrote Gravity's Rainbow?

27:22I was going to ask you this. Because I feel like I just, like, Paul Thomas Anderson would know.

27:28Andy Greenwald:unless we've been saying his name wrong and it's Paul Thomas Anderson because he said Thomas Pynchon I have been saying Thomas Pynchon for my whole life yeah like Thomas Pynchon Pynchon yeah but he said Pynchon he did and I don't know whether that's like a valley thing or that was like I'm just I'm just letting it loose like I like I have what do they call malapropisms or whatever like sometimes I like miss say something or whatever really like but I feel like he would know and that's a name that he is, like he might even have Thomas Pynchon's email address. He's probably communicated with him at some point.

28:01Andy Greenwald:Also, this is, I just want to point out, the Man of the People thing, you're wearing a Liverpool sweatshirt, a Phillies hat. Yeah. And you are, this is the most heated you've gotten so far in our podcast over the pronunciation of cult novelist Thomas Pynchon's name. I just wouldn't want to - Who's the art guy? I wouldn't want to be mispronouncing the great man's name for this long. In fact, I was dapping myself up for reading Vineland last year. You mean Vineland. And maybe it is. Maybe it is. We don't know. And frankly, we have no way of ever finding out. That was interesting. There were people who were much more like, it's Grantland.

28:35Not Grantland. Grantland. That's how I say it. But maybe that's like a Philly thing. You know, maybe it's like a casual kind of, kind of swallow the end of the word thing.

28:44Andy Greenwald:Hmm. You think like Californians are more confident and they say the whole thing? Yeah, Thomas Pinchon. What voice is that? That's like surfer dude. Oh. Like nasally kind of California, valley. hanging out, reading Thomas Pinchon. Do you think a lot of surfers like Mason and Dixon? What is the Venn diagram of this particular character that you're creating for us? You wrote a lot about Southern California. I know, but I just feel like you are micro-targeting right now. I'm not mad at it. That's what I usually do. That's all I got for the Globe, so. Kaya, were there after parties for the podcast nominees?

29:16Andy Greenwald:Anything? I had my own personal after party at a sushi restaurant. Nice. You had quite a weekend, or quite an extended weekend, right? I mean, I worked a lot. No, I wasn't saying you didn't provide value to the company. To the shareholders. I just meant it was like a phone weekend. It was like, you know, there was the Globes party last week. Yeah, Chris and I partied it up at the Globes party. This is a story. No, that's fine. That was the party that Chris cleared the lane. He made sure that I wasn't there dragging you guys down, which I respect. Tim Simon's like, are you here? I was like, talk to your friend Chris.

29:50Andy Greenwald:I would have been. Must be nice. Yes. You didn't make the photo carousel, though, of Starry Night at the Hollywood Reporter Spotify party. It was the front page over the weekend. I got my picture taken with Tim at that party, and he was trying to give me tips about it. Yeah. But I think I just looked like a balding accountant at that party, so I'm not surprised I didn't make the Hollywood Reporter carousel. Sorry to go against the grain here, but the Hollywood Reporter ran a series of photos from the night. it was the headline over the weekend they were very proud of their party and it was like John Legend at the party and then it was like Chaka Khan at the party and maybe there was one of the heated rivalry people was there the guy who plays Scott was there and the kid from Sinners was there so there's pictures of these people yeah and then there's a picture of Tim he looked great he's the king of the red carpet these days looks amazing proud of him and then then it was like the circulation director for Hollywood Reporter and Penske Media on the couch.

30:54Andy Greenwald:And I told him he was correctly placed in the carousel. But if the circulation manager got on the couch, we're just saying... Was Bill in... Did Bill make a carousel? No, but I thought Bill was just doing a drive-by. He stayed a little longer than I think he thought he was going to, but that's just because, you know, his homies were there. That's nice. His homies, Miles Caden and... And Chaka Khan. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us. The intersection of interest that inspires a run crew.

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33:24Let's do industry. Let's talk a little bit of big picture here. Let's do it. Among my favorite shows of the decade. Absolutely. One of, I think, the shows we've been most, if we could be proud of a show, I think we're proud of industry, right? Yeah. This is something that we jumped on early on from the earliest days of its release. I was very curious about it. And to see it not only find a bigger audience, but also to watch the swagger it has now is really something pretty awesome. And the response. Nothing to do with it.

33:57Andy Greenwald:Rave reviews. Rave reviews. Universal, not just acclaim, but universal coverage, which is not the case for season one. We were joking about that. And I would say that for as much as we've spent a lot of time talking over the last few weeks and months about how The Pit, which also returned over the weekend, over the last few days, represents something that we love about television and we have always loved about television in terms of just like the reliable clockwork. Here's a setting, here's people you don't know yet, but you will fall in love with and you can sort of set your watch to it, but you give yourself over to it.

34:28Andy Greenwald:That aspect of TV that we grew up with. The other part of TV that keeps me fascinated, keeps me affectionate, keeps me passionate, keeps me wanting to work in and around it is the way that TV can grow and evolve over time. And especially combined with opportunity, with good fortune, with good casting, with good taste, and with a certain level, and in the case of Mickey Down and Conrad Kay, as we're about to talk about it, quite a bit of fearlessness. These things can evolve beyond anything we or maybe even the creators could imagine. And seeing that development over seasons is both exciting and rare in a time when fear still does kind of dominate in the executive suite where opportunities are fewer and where a lot of these streaming services either pull the plug early on stuff or cap things.

35:16Andy Greenwald:Yes. Two seasons, three seasons, stay in your lane, that kind of conversation with a network. So that also feeds us. Yeah, and I think also there's a boldness to the, honestly, for lack of a better term, the geography of the show. because a lot of TV shows, even if they go through reinventions, stay rooted in, you know, Oz stays in the prison until the prison is no more and Justified more or less bangs around the hollers. And, you know, long-running shows that are essentially like maybe have good seasons, bad seasons, up seasons, down seasons, or are relentlessly creative still kind of keep to a baseline of experiences that you can have in the show.

36:02Now, there's consistency in industry in terms of the way people talk and what they're talking about and maybe even the Nathan McKay soundtrack, although I think that they have obviously started to invest more in needle drops as the years have gone on. but the thing that really struck me about this one and you know the creators have talked about it being kind of a soft reboot for the show or or the idea of like you know basically refueling the plane midair you know is how i never know where the next scene is going to be and that is still a sensation that i think is thrilling like now it might be it takes away a little bit of like the quote-unquote reliability factor of television because you're just like, okay, now we're going to go to this place.

36:48It's like they're always... In Mad Men, they're going to go back to the office at some point. There is no office in industry anymore. Now, they may start one, and there may be a pure point, you know, in everything but name. But I think the thing that...

37:04Andy Greenwald:Like Sterling Cooper, Draper Price. Yeah, the thing that excites me about the show is moments like Rishi's corporate espionage gig or political espionage gig that he's doing for Harper, and he shows up in a bar that looked a lot like the Devonshire, but I don't think was, and is sort of kind of haunting the sort of outer edges of a wake that's happening there, and steals a guy's phone to get some political information to supply Harper so that she can short this company. We'll get into all of that. Just even going to that bar. Like, most TV shows would not scout a new place, find a existing bar, I do not think they built that on a set, and go shoot there with a ton of extras to give you a sense of like London as a living, breathing place where shit like this is happening on a Wednesday or a Thursday.

37:54That's so exciting. Like that's a quality that this show has that I can't think of another current show that has that right now.

38:02Andy Greenwald:The Rishi scene may have been my favorite in the episode. And before we get into the specifics, I just want to follow up on what you said, which was creators have talked about it as a soft reboot. this is a hard reboot. Yeah. I was trying to think of any other shows, contemporary or not, that have attempted to kind of speed race a completely new protagonist and a completely new status quo concurrently in a season premiere. Like, for example, with Mad Men, the show would evolve and the firm changed, but the principles stayed the same. Yeah. The trappings and the circumstance changed. When we would talk about, shows that really not just revolutionize transformation and evolution within serialized narratives, but shows that really set the template.

38:49Andy Greenwald:The Wire, for example. Season 2. Each season in a way, but season 2 certainly more than any other. But the one thing that The Wire did was it was expanding the aperture of its view of the city. So the police department was the police department, but there were different nodes connecting it now to City Hall or to the docks or to the school system. and they would fold them in until they were all existing concurrently. Like McNulty, again, his circumstances and his sobriety changed, but he was still a Baltimore police, as they say. This show is not doing that. And the degree of difficulty for this premiere cannot be overstated.

39:23Andy Greenwald:And I think any hesitation I have in giving it a full-throated five-star review, because again, we've only seen one, is mostly because I'm dazzled at the audacity of it and trying to keep up with the changes. There is no, and I feel like this is relevant to the characters in industry, there is no safe word for this show. There really isn't a home base to return to to make the audience, and I will admit, this is kind of a basic asset on the couch kind of take here. Oh, okay, we're in a place I've been before, and I've seen it, and I know what the stakes are here. They're not giving us that, which I commend, but takes a second, especially when we are giving so much screen time to so many new players, so much new content, and so many new levels of interaction.

40:12Andy Greenwald:Can you think of anything that has attempted this or that it made you feel like? And I don't mean to put you on the spot because I thought about it all weekend. No, I mean, I think that The Wire season two would be the closest thing I can think of in terms of the season starts. I can't remember in my mind whether I knew that that was coming or not. I don't remember, like, The Wire. The infrastructure. talking to the ecosystem was different. Yeah, it wasn't like they were doing tons of short-form video to be like, just so you know, this is what's going to happen. If I remember correctly, I'd started and I was like, so where's Omar?

40:46I think if you were watching this, you might be like, where's Henry Muck? Where's Eric? You might be looking for people that you've become close to. You might be like, where's Rob?

40:58Andy Greenwald:Or you understand, and again, we have weeks to talk about this and unpack it and see where it goes, I think one of the things that made Industry Season 3 not just the best season of the show thus far, but I think it was our number one TV show of the year, the year that it aired, was because Mickey and Conrad understood in their bones the rhythms of the show they'd created and that this had reached its end point. That there was nowhere else to go with this structure of PeerPoint and everything that it entailed. So, all in on that. But it is worth noting that one of the things that PeerPoint provided was a structure for the viewer to understand, oh, the characters are out doing drugs and boning each other until dawn.

41:42Andy Greenwald:That will have an impact on their workday. Thus, when I see them at work, I carry that context. I understand the stakes of all their decision making. Now that Harper is still a complete chaos agent and a heliocentric ball stopper, I would say, in terms of financial flow and also information flow. But she's the boss, but she's not quite the boss yet. Again, the episode had to remind us of that. Okay, well, she can behave this way in this context, but Hugo Mastanis still at least believes that he's pulling her strings, thus the Eric thing. I'm not saying the premiere didn't give us the context. I'm saying we're starting from scratch.

42:21It just also moved incredibly quickly, and it had a lot of moments that, like, for instance, the opening sequence of the show features Charlie Heaton, who people probably recognize some Stranger Things playing a financial journalist who when the show starts...

42:35Andy Greenwald:I mean, I haven't been a journalist in a while, but his behavior tracked with how I remember being a journalist. But when the show starts, he is essentially stalking Kiernan Shipka's Haley character as she goes through like a night out starting at a wine bar going to a nightclub. He hooks up with her. This tracks with my experience in London too. Every austere wine bar with a beautifully steamed piece of hake ends with an all-night nightclub where they exclusively play New Order remixes. That's right. I mean, a boy can dream. And then, the next morning, he reveals that he is, in fact, a journalist and that he is looking into Kiernan Shipka's character's boss's behavior and her boss.

43:13In his defense,

43:13Andy Greenwald:he made her coffee, too. So let's not act like he... Yeah. They cut away. We don't know exactly what happened. You know, he could have just been like... She woke up fully clothed. Yeah, he's like, why don't we just catch up on Landman? Let's cuddle. And watch Landman. there are Eugle's highlights are on you want to check that out snooze her boss is played by Max Minghala who is a co-leader of a company called Tender which is currently at the start of the show is basically like a Stripe or PayPal for porn sites yeah and they are working for their primary client or one of their primary clients is this company Siren, which is like an OnlyFans-esque kind of user-generated content place.

44:00That is ascendant.

44:01Andy Greenwald:It's like starting to devour the marketplace. Yeah. And concurrent with that, the British government is starting to get into online safety acts, mentions Siren by name. There's in the House of Commons where they're talking about bringing a bill or making some new laws that would restrict the sort of access people have to this or whether or not it's even legal at all to do it. so that dovetails quite nicely with Whitney Max Mihaly's character who is looking to diversify what Tender does and wants it to not only be like he doesn't want them to just be money launderers for porn companies he wants them to be like a 21st century financial institution like a post-bank bank nimble for the world that is no longer in the words of the show they don't want to be the PayPal of Bukkake yes and he's been going to Africa every couple of weeks to expand the footprint of the company.

44:54Meanwhile, Cal Penn, who plays a guy named Jay, I believe, right? Jonah? What's his name?

45:00Andy Greenwald:You're the one that takes the notes. Well, I'm just vibing. This is me. He plays Atterbury, I think is his name. Sure. His character's name. His last name. He just wants to fucking party and hook up with girls and vape in the office. And he's like, we've iterated enough. This is an awesome life. We're rich. Yeah. We have zip-ups, quarter zips with our name on it our company's name on it and uh so there's that tension now that takes up half the episode half the episode is about new characters new companies new ideas uh you're right his name is jay by the way great uh and we're being asked to understand a lot about um english government english laws uh financial institutions that we've not not familiar with financial journalists investigating those financial institutions all the while in the And the sort of side is Harper, who is running a new shop under...

45:56Moston Asset Management. The umbrella of Otto Moston, who is the sort of lord from the third season, who recognizes in Harper a kindred kind of outlaw spirit. And he has set her up with her own shop underneath his kind of investment bank or whatever he's got going on. And her job is to essentially find companies to short. But what happens is she starts wanting to short companies that are run by friends of Otto. And they have a big showdown. They sever their relationship. And by the end of the episode, Harper has talked Eric into coming back from the Hamptons, it looks like.

46:39Andy Greenwald:Yeah, or Jersey. Oh, he's at a Trump course, right? He's playing, I mean, first of all, kudos to Mickey and Conrad. They got a 45, I'm sorry, 45-47 cameo. That's true. Huge. Can't believe the show's not moving to CBS. Yeah. But he's on a golf course. Yes. Yeah. And he's not satisfied. Trump or Eric? Both of the great men. Neither great man is really satisfied. Yeah, Eric doesn't like heaven. He's retired. He's playing golf. They go to get steaks and have sex with young ladies. and he's just like, the action is the juice. I gotta get back to work. So he goes back to England. He hooks back up with Harper.

47:23They're gonna start a new shop. And I think that what we're gonna get based on this first episode is seeing characters see how far they can push things. Because I think, to me, this episode was about ethics or the abandonment of ethics. Oh. Yeah, to some extent. What'd you think of it?

47:43Andy Greenwald:Where do you stand on ethics? Well, I think we're watching them go away. Yeah, I think we're watching the slow degradation of the idea of like an internal moral compass. And it's because of the elevation of industries like finance. Because they're like, look, the only thing that matters is like your margin of victory. So you could say, oh, it's always been like this. It was just dressed up like guys like Otto. but what is the moral compass of the people who are making these decisions who are going after stories who are going into uh africa to promote financial institutions like what is what is guiding them aside from power and victory and and wealth i mean i think fundamentally one of the reasons why the show is so successful is because it is one of the few entertainments of our era that is willing to run right at the emptiness that is at the core of basically everything we do.

48:39Andy Greenwald:Yes. And I don't just mean, like, that we have a job just talking about stuff twice a week because I love our job. And, you know, now that we are recognized by the Golden Globes, not us, but, like, the category. Sure. Like, hopefully we can continue to build, you know, equity. I don't know. But, like, you know, to watch football in America yesterday is not just to experience massive disappointment and embarrassment and shame. It's also to see that every commercial is either for drug medication or AI. Yep. And the entire economy is just AI being propped up by ads and things like that. But you do wonder whether any other company in the world has any money.

49:16Andy Greenwald:That's what I mean. Yeah. And that what Harper... Like we literally can't get a Nike ad. No. And what Harper does and what all of the, you know, when we're like, oh, we don't really understand financials, that's because the product that they do is FanDuel for corporations, right? It is all betting and hedging and shorting on the potential growth of things as opposed to, I mean, this is not me on a soapbox, but instead of actually the company making something or doing something, right? Yeah, I mean, doesn't Whitney say something that he's like, we're just taking things that people don't need and selling it to them?

49:53Andy Greenwald:A great speech about what capitalism is and what online stuff is and what the service they provide and how, well, at least in these tough, these uncertain economic times, masturbation remains a reliable engine of commerce. and of interest. So what I like about the decoupling from the sort of, at this point, show the performance-based like old world security of a bank is that all of these people are degenerates and they're doing the same things they were doing before under increasingly changed or compromised context. So I went from thinking that Rishi had also reached a natural endpoint with the extremity of his final scene in season three to realizing that he is maybe the ideal avatar for this kind of storytelling in season four.

50:44Andy Greenwald:I thought that scene was phenomenal because the abilities that he has in the workplace of PurePoint are in no way separate from the degeneracy of his life as a gambler. And now what is left to him as a career is a sort of bizarre amalgamation of both. Well, now he's just like a hired gun. And it's not even like that he's a hired gun to do the things that he was doing at PurePoint. What Harper seems to have recognized in him is his ability to be multiple people at once. Right. And to live these secret lives and to keep plates spinning in the air. So it's not really his financial acumen that she's going after.

51:26It's his ability to walk into a wake and pretend like he belongs there and then steal a guy's phone and then replace it and then immediately give that information to Harper. Or maybe, I can't remember, I guess he didn't replace it. I think he straight up stole it.

51:40Andy Greenwald:No, he brought the phone back. Oh, he did. I don't know if he emailed it to himself and deleted the sent. I don't know. Harper ended up with the draft speech that was going to be delivered in Parliament, but he put the guy's phone back in his bag so he would find it later and he finished his gin and tonic and then went about his day. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about... the button pushing. Also, just to say that sometimes the hardest things that season premieres have to do in ongoing shows is to walk back decisions that made that were very dramatically evocative in the previous season finale.

52:17So it would be one that you're talking about.

52:18Andy Greenwald:Bringing Eric back. And I thought this was done well. Yes. I was going to commend that because I think the show, and I think you agree with this, it really does sing when Ken Leung is back on screen and particularly when he's paired with Mahala. and I get that for marketing purposes and maybe for the long arc of the show, it's always been about Yasmin and Harper, but I think the Harper-Eric dynamic is the beating heart of the show on a practical level. The Kyle Schwarber, if you will, I want it for pivoting to baseball. Sure. You know, he kind of makes the whole lineup work. So I liked the way he was brought back and I liked their new dynamic as potentially we see each other in peers, but also I don't care get him back and that is the nuts and bolts of TV that I often enjoy I don't care that he could not have been exiled further we need him back let's move on and to the point that we were talking about earlier about the reinvention but also the there was a safer version to do this show this show could have just stayed at Pierpoint for five seasons and season four could have been Harper has ascended to the top of Pierpoint and Eric is now below her in the corporate pecking order and they each have emotional and real blackmail over each other and the Game of Thrones that's going to happen within that very specific physical context of we're on the trading floor, there's a C-suite, but then they go out and get drinks and then they come back.

53:45There was a repetition happening and now it is almost like much more run and gun. I was going to call it guerrilla filmmaking, but they have obviously also the other major development over the course of the series is Mickey and Conrad becoming more assured filmmakers and imparting a lot of their cinematic influence

54:05Andy Greenwald:onto the show. Okay, so wait, put a pin in that because I do want to talk about that. I wondered, and I don't mean this to be under the category of concern trolling, but it's just something that I'm watching, is that this is a show that began, again, essentially as a completely different show with completely, I'm not saying Mickey and Conrad were overmatched, but they were green. And the premise of the show, what the pilot promised and we love the pilot was that these are we're entering this financial institution at the lowest rung and seeing who is hungry enough degenerate enough driven enough whatever to ascend and for as unconventional as a lot of the storytelling was in season one you start at the low at the bottom of the totem pole looking up that's conventional sure that's Grey's Anatomy it's the pit yeah exactly I'm curious about the show's internal internal, what's the thing?

54:59Andy Greenwald:Gable. Like the level, you know, in terms of where we are in relation to underdogs or overdogs. Because going into this episode, and again, in a consequence-free, amoral universe, which the show is now very confidently steering through, maybe these are outdated terms. But everyone is an overdog right now on the show. Maybe with the exception of Kiernan Shipka's Haley character, who is literally an assistant. Everyone else is, we're at the highest level now. Harper is walking into these rooms as an equal. I would push back on that. I think that's fair. I think that she needs to look down upon for reasons that are cosmetic and racial and class and being an American and being an upstart, as Hugo says to her, or she says to Hugo, like, you hired me because of what I look like.

55:44Andy Greenwald:Right. And my attitude. That's fair. And I overspoke. I went too far on that. Well, I would just say that I think it's representative of the Wild West feel that global finance has right now. You have these old-storied institutions, the Goldman's and, you know, whatevers. A lot of them got washed out in 08 anyway. I mean, some of those great big banks, I don't mean great like I loved them. I just mean like the big great banks of... Who were your bank guys? Lehman? I was a Lehman guy. I kind of like Bear Stearns. Yeah. I got to go back and watch Too Big to Fail to find... but I think about how many household names did not exist five years ago now.

56:22Andy Greenwald:Yes. You know, whether it's cryptocurrency stuff or whether it's AI stuff or whether it's just like banks that get involved with the financing of the purchase of like European football clubs or how much private equity is out there where you're just like, so why does Redbird own this like now? What about the, like I was reading the Times today and there was a comment about how David Ellison is seeking to become the most powerful executive in Hollywood history, thanks to the backing of his father, currently the fifth richest person in the world. Yes. And David Ellison was born in 1983 and started Skydance when he was 23 to make a movie called Flyboys because he was kind of into aerial tricks and was an amateur pilot.

57:03Andy Greenwald:Same. And now, I know, but look how your career's diverged. You're still a better hang, but... We don't know. Dave could be an amazing hang. We have to do the actually, David Ellison come on the pod man You want David Ellison to come on the pod Okay But no questions about the merger It's all just like a hang thing It's just about like Who are your guys Chris Ryan the next anchor of the CBS Evening News David Ellison we salute you You've made some bold choices And we in America favor the bold Would you watch CBS Evening News if I was the anchor Yeah because I would support you We've established there's a But you're like, don't listen to the rewatchables.

57:44Like, would you watch me every night as I reported the news?

57:47Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I also watch Landman for you every week, and you still have not seen a Miyazaki movie. I don't, I don't, don't blame me for Landman. You, you, you have free will. You are on the hook for this episode. All right, fine. This episode that most represented your own personal opinions about woke in the workplace and what's happened on college campuses. Yeah. This is just CR cooking. I can tell you're chomping at the bit. Is there anything else you want to talk about? Let's go back to what you said, because we're still on industry. The cinematic ambitions of the show. It was very notable in the opening particularly, which began, just to bring it all the way back, you were talking about Charlie Heaton is investigating and he's following two unknown characters circling each other, dancing in the club.

58:25Andy Greenwald:And it was interesting to think about the transformation as the season was beginning. Again, what I love about the show is that evolution over time. But one of the things that the show started with and what, it wasn't noisy. It was quite austere and minimalist. And also the way Lena Dunham directed the pilot was a lot about the lines, the coldness of everything. Nathan McKay's score did a lot of work. And it was also before they discovered what Cigar Radio was doing in the background as Rishi and how the noise of that became kind of the tempo of the show. but just think about it visually from something that did seem rather austere and minimalist and cold and modern has started to turn under their directorial guise into something much more lush and sensual Yes and Baroque almost and it wasn't what's the Albert Finney eating movie Tom Jones yeah it wasn't Tom Jones-esque like the season finale was Yeah last year it wasn't the setting for that but it was very visually different even the way the camera moved or didn't move in the Charlie Heaton Kiernan Shipka table confrontation.

59:31Andy Greenwald:I was like, okay, it's just a different show when visual style changes so much. Yeah, but it's obviously something that they're thinking about a lot. I thought that they did a really great job of giving each new location and each new setting a different visual language. I thought Tender had a little... They're so good at names. But it had a little bit more of an on-its-axis kind of like... It's Canary Wharf, Doug. I know. But then when it's at night, it's so much more like the ecstasy is kicking in and it's like everything is so lush and everything is kind of like the one perfect spotlight hitting Kiernan Shipka as she's standing by the DJ booth because the music is promoting this almost fantasy land.

1:00:17It's just very smart filmmaking. It's accomplished filmmaking. I think they have a long career ahead of them once they stop doing industry, but they can obviously take industry and make it into the movie of their dreams anyway.

1:00:29Andy Greenwald:Did you feel like it was a little too close to home when there's the dinner scene where lifelong friends who are about to have a, frankly, a rather dramatic rupture, Jay and Whitney go to dinner in London. And one of them is just like sticking to water. And the other one like orders, let's say a second Murphy Stout. And one guy's the other is like, I think you should be clear headed tomorrow because we have a podcast. Did that remind you of anything from the fall? It does remind me of your dalliance with N.A. I don't know if you want to talk about it. No, but I was just wondering if that struck any chords.

1:01:08I feel like I have that stuff pretty under control now.

1:01:11Andy Greenwald:You 100 % do. That said, we do have a meeting afterwards that has just recently popped up on your calendar, and I do think that you should sit down for it. Any invention about having two and a half beers? Do you have any other thoughts on the imports, the American importance of the show? I think we can use that as a little bit of a time to talk about watching new people learn how to speak Mickey and Conrad. So this is a very sharp very, I think probably like weighty show when it comes to the dialogue and it's like you're kind of almost saying things that feel like they could be written but they are the perfect things to say.

1:01:52I imagine like everybody needs a little bit of lead time to get used to the dialogue and I thought Max Mahalo was awesome at it. And I thought everybody was actually quite good at it. Cal Penn I'll be curious to see where that character goes. Like if they keep him around or if that's kind of a, hey it's that guy I know but he was only in one episode.

1:02:12Andy Greenwald:He was the Kyle Chandler. I didn't want to spoil. I didn't say which show. How Friday Night Lights began. Could have been Homefront. Could be Lanterns. I don't know. Yeah. And yeah, the newer characters, I was going to say the newer characters, yeah, I think the newer characters all sort of participate in some of the more, you know, oh my days moments of the show where it's like, we got a dildo coming out. Kieran Shipka says some things I'm not going to repeat while on Ecstasy. Yeah. About Bubblegum. She does. And then at the end. I don't think it was about Bubblegum, but Bubblegum played into it.

1:02:51it was used as sort of the visual imagery and then at the end we have the return of Kit Harington as Henry Muck who is crushing up pills to snort off of a harpsichord that he's not supposed to touch yeah I imagine that is just probably the way Henry Muck gets down that's pretty cool yeah so well I can't wait for the next episode

1:03:11Andy Greenwald:I think the best segue into talking about Landman would be a quote from Industry 401 and this is if you've done timestamps this is okay I don't think it spoils anything but I do think that there was a one line that really presaged my interaction with this episode I'm just getting ready that woke shit no longer moves the needle in this new world so I I am gonna let you cook no no I think you should defend yourself I don't have to defend anything I've always been very very clear that I do not agree with everything that and I don't even know yeah like look for let me let me you always said that you frequent daily caller because you like to open yourself up to a wide range of ideas taylor sheridan has a history of introducing characters to represent ideas in the culture wars that i think he is on the wrong side of probably and that probably doing a lot of work god so when the character of pagan the talk about it let kaya know what she's producing when she's not winning Golden Globes.

1:04:22Ainsley's non-binary roommate at TCU has come down from Minnesota, of all places, to be a sports medicine major at TCU. I don't know. We could look up if TCU has a heralded program, but I personally don't. Joel Anderson, an alumnus from TCU. I would love to hear if Joel's got any thoughts on the Horned Frogs. Don't worry about Pagan. Pagan is already all set up in the freshman dorms, and they have a ferret, and they have a lot of restrictions about what Ainsley can and can't do in terms of making noise, having animal products, cooking. Playing music. Playing music. Yes. And so Ainsley then goes to...

1:05:09Andy Greenwald:Also, Pagan uses a reusable water bottle, which is just appalling. Don't you use a reusable water bottle? physician heal myself go on so anyway this is an opportunity for multiple characters in the show well really just Angela and Ainsley to discuss people like Pagan and how they're so unhappy about themselves that they take it out on other people by making them you know do gymnastics to figure out their pronouns and not play music in their dorm rooms and stuff like that I will be I'm legitimately curious to see if Pagan is in the 10th episode, and if there is any reason for this character's introduction.

1:05:55And frankly, way more time spent with Pagan and Ainsley's dorm roommate than Tommy's firing at the end of the episode and the collapse of his relationship with Cammie.

1:06:06Andy Greenwald:Look, the Pagan interlude is appalling. Yes. The way the episode is constructed, in which everything is given the same weight and nothing matters is disqualifying. This was a new level of dog shit in the history of television. I don't know why you're like, I wrote this and it's my fault that you're watching this. I didn't say you wrote it. I just think they probably send you drafts. And you could be like, go a little further on this. It's a little subtle. Yeah. I also think that Pagan gets all the headlines, but the things that occur around this character such as Ainsley who as stated is played by I believe a 39 year old woman she's not that old but yeah playing a 17 year old who is we are told in this episode is not going to college is going to stay in a dorm for one week of cheerleading camp why Pagan is there early unclear during cheerleading camp I suppose to soothe whatever other camps are having like she can well no the dorm is a safe space so perhaps just want to just kind of like you know put down put down some roots roots yeah make the ferret comfortable Angela who is meant to be an adult human behaves the way parents behave when they take their three year old to preschool for the first time yeah complete and total emotional meltdown I think at least Tommy is like what are you crying about Ainsley's going to camp for two weeks or something.

1:07:43Andy Greenwald:Man up woman, basically. The only thing that makes Angela feel better initially is for saying goodbye to her daughter for a week is calling her personal concierge at Neiman Marcus to shop it out. And then when Ainsley has a problem, swooping in like the fucking angel of death. And renting out like the solo house of Fort Worth, basically. For margarita parties. Yeah. she had a great scene with my old classmate Miriam Silverman who I'd like to remind people won a Tony and the reward that this culture gives stars of the theater is the right to debate pronoun usage with Allie Larder I thought Miriam was delightful in that scene both with Ainsley and Angela she had the right sensibility for that I totally agree but the other thing and this this goes into my larger point which is despite how I've let off not necessarily even a culture war point because frankly we may have lost that one.

1:08:39Andy Greenwald:As a man who's been reading about 1930s Germany, you gotta know when to fold them. Okay? It's possible. We had a good run. We did have a good run having culture. Remember the 90s? It was sick. Totally agree. The absolute inconsistent idiocy of a show in which Ainsley is written purely as a bikini-wearing vessel for an angry, isolated, wealthy 55-year-old man to pour whatever opinion he has that week is just frankly gross and dumb. It's not the politics. It's that Ainsley is smart enough to say, oh, your name's Pagan, like the godless religion. Yeah, I saw that recap. Wait, and then Pagan is like, this is a ferret, a widely known animal.

1:09:24Andy Greenwald:And Ainsley's like, what's that? And Pagan goes, like a weasel. And Ainsley says, well, what's that? Make it make sense. When Tommy gives her advice. Stop pointing at me. I didn't write it. You're on the hook for this. No, I'm not. This was my Sunday, and Kevin Petulo's not walking through that door. I told you to watch this on Thursday. I knew what was going to happen on Sunday. I knew how it was going to feel. It makes for good radio. Tommy says make his not bad advice to a grown woman who is cosplaying as a child. Make good choices. Yeah. And to him, good choices is don't have a fifth margarita when you're out on the town and off campus.

1:10:05Andy Greenwald:and Ainsley says, I don't drink margaritas. There's too much sugar. Yeah. We fast forward to mom coming to save the day with a pool party and the game being played by Ainsley is Margarita Marco Polo. So her abstinence policy lasted about as long as mine did in London. And it's just the inconsistency. So we talk about the impressive nature of the Taylor Sheridan industrial complex that like, wow, like hate him or love him, this man generates a lot of television. Thanks for saying we. But there is the most charitable version of criticism for this show is that there's actually a reason why very, very, very few people attempt this and almost no one successfully pulls this off.

1:10:48Andy Greenwald:The act of solo writing an ongoing dramatic series. If you're Mike White and you're telling one story per season. One story every couple of years. Or Brad Inglesby with a task. Like these guys work alone and they do good work. The reason you don't do it for an ongoing series is because an ongoing series demands a multiplicity of points of view and perspective and maybe voices being like, you might want to run that through the filter a couple more times to make it make sense or make it be funny or make it be entertaining or make it fucking have a point. Aaron Sorkin pulled off the solo practitioner act and he was had a debilitating crack addiction when he did it.

1:11:30Okay?

1:11:32Andy Greenwald:I don't know what Taylor Sheridan's excuse is. You need a human perspective, not just to make the pagan character work as anything other than as a strong non-binary. We're not saying strong men anymore in this world. It's that for a character like Ariana, who exists on the show and is well-played and, you know, is... In many ways, we've pointed to that relationship with Cooper as like, that's kind of the heart of the show. I thought so, yes. And maybe what the show should have been. Right. But having a second person in the room, maybe even a second female person in the room, pronouns TBD, could say there's probably more meat on the bone of this character than she could get engaged or she could get sexually assaulted.

1:12:18Andy Greenwald:And there's nothing else for her to do. Sure, sure. It's just lame. It's despicable and it's gross. I agree. Thank you. I agree. I won. this is like that show on the internet where like Mehdi Hassan is like surrounded by 30 MAGA people but nobody's arguing with you yeah but I just both of us won this was a disappointment I read an interview with Jacob Laughlin in The Hollywood Reporter he's obviously very happy to be part of the show so I don't want to misconstrue what he was saying but he was talking about how this season the first season that they got all the scripts they saw where their arcs were going yeah and they shot them in whatever order they shot them but they understood the entirety of the story.

1:12:58And that this season, they would shoot things. Sometimes they would shoot episode six and then they would shoot episode three. And it feels like that.

1:13:09Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I think he was saying like, isn't it crazy that Taylor's just generating all this stuff? But this feels like something that was written out of order. And that there are scenes that are kind of like mildly trying to correct for certain things like earlier in the season or even just ignoring them. You know, like even I honestly like the more compelling thing is the idea of like we were talking about reinventions, like making Tommy poor or making Tommy into some kind of like giving him a new challenge rather than every week. I just solve the biggest problem in Texas and then go home to my crazy wife.

1:13:45You know, now that could be like an interesting like obstacle. Now, I don't necessarily think you're going to be there for season three to find out. But this was, you know, the pagan stuff was reminiscent of things that have happened in Lioness, where Dave Annabelle's character has spirited debates with his teenage daughter. It also reminded me of the Piper Parabo character from Yellowstone, who is a climate change activist. Oh, boy. You know, I think Taylor likes to get some characters in there and just throw some ideas around, you know. this season just feels like a little bit like undercooked like or that like to your point like there was a deadline there is like writing going on there's filming going on but even the performances don't feel geolocated to um the point they are in the season no can't why why has cammy been rolling around on the ground screaming all year or getting into financial relationships with the cartel against the advice of Tommy.

1:14:48Like there is a certain like kind of recklessness to the character arcs or an aimlessness that I think you're, you're also right to point out.

1:14:57Andy Greenwald:What is this season about? What is the story of this season? Uh, I mean, you want me really to answer that? Well, sure. My answer to that would be actually one that I am a little less interested in, which is the mortality, like mortality, that, that the reason why they brought Sam Elliott in, the reason why they've been confronted with like multiple workplace deaths and the reason why that guy's whole like like i made my 20 years i get the watch thing yeah it's like the idea that this industry just like grinds you up and spits you out that's like my that's beautiful most generous read of like what's been happening i would like to reiterate just in case you know parts are clipped or not clipped i would just like to say that this entire exercise of this television show of the season has been despicable.

1:15:44Andy Greenwald:Okay. That said, what is most frustrating is... But you know what? Wait, let me finish. Okay, all right. Every so often, a decent, no, compelling idea wanders across the screen like when Fred Armisen would play former Governor David Patterson of New York. That idea that you just talked about that was in that scene where boss gets his watch is compelling. The one good episode this season that I think was the funeral episode actually had some pathos to it. Yes, it was quite good. The rest of it... It was also indicative of, like, making all of those people be together anywhere else other than the kitchen at Tommy and Angela's house where seemingly nine people live now.

1:16:27Andy Greenwald:Yes, and the fact that the great Sam Elliott, who looks great, by the way, does not look near death. Sam Elliott looks better than I do. With a shirt off. Straight up. The fact, though, that he's being asked to play someone who is on death's door and playing the same seated note of resignation and regret for eight straight episodes. Until Cheyenne came along. Until a unlicensed physical therapist, exotic dancer, swims laps in front of him. And instead of just letting that scene, which is entirely unnecessary to the plot of the season, just play out and be what it is. But there's no such thing as unnecessary to the plot of the season because nothing matters.

1:17:08Andy Greenwald:So maybe it is the perfect show for our time. but the fact that even within a just sort of nonsense spew of what life is or isn't there has to be just a little parenthetical for taylor's sake where the 20 year old dancer says the 80 year old i definitely have sex with you if the numbers just were a little bit different and he's like cool i would have sex with you too and everyone they look at each other like okay we get it yeah we get it yeah maybe that's the world that taylor wants for us where people are honest about their sexual prospects at all times. If we're talking about being honest, I just want to say this.

1:17:42We have watched lots of TV over the last couple of years. There's been plenty that you would probably say is better than Landman that you give up on midway through. And somehow, some reason, you have been coming back for more to the trough every week, drilling away to see if you strike well.

1:17:59Andy Greenwald:I am not immune to the culture that we exist in. I'm aware of the first takeification of sports. I'm okay dabbling a little bit now that we're video stars some of us more than others so I was willing to engage in that kind of conversation but you know if there's one thing that an 800 page book about the sweep of modern German history has taught me it's that maybe it's time to call it we got one more I'd use you for one more we gotta find out how it ends but I mean it's been renewed dude i yeah here's what i would like i would like the you know like the the workplace drama i am most interested in right now is the executive suite at peacock watching this season play out thinking about the next five years of their life i mean i would here's one version of that which is this is great he's obviously not worried about these shows that is smart he's shorting his own shows and he's about to make a bigger...

1:19:03Andy Greenwald:Oh, he's saving all the good ideas. Just so we have it on the record. When you said... That would be amazing if he was like, I'm detonating this so that they don't even want it. So Sicario the series premieres on Peacock in 2028. Don't tempt me with a good time. I know. I'm saying. I also want to be clear. I just want to have this on the record since we are on camera right now. When you say that you don't expect me back for the next season of Landman. Do you already have a new co-host in mind? It's Sam Elliott. Shirtless. And Cheyenne. Guys, first of all, you both look great. Any updates in your relationship status?

1:19:44Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Terrific. Yeah. Terrific. Well, let's see Amy Poehler do that, Kaya. I mean, you really brought it home. I think that your criticisms are all really valid. I think your criticisms are valid, too. What were they? Was it more about like roommate assignments? Like maybe just more daughter care should have been put into that? Thanks to Golden Globe winning producer Kai McMullen. Thanks to Kai Grady. Thanks to Andy Greenwald for always shooting from the hip. You know? Can't help it. They can't tell you. They can't say that you're bought and paid for. They will. But the evidence suggests otherwise.

1:20:21They will. We'll be back on Thursday to talk a little bit of Pitt. Let me see. Actually, hold on a second. Yeah. Is there anything other than the Pitt coming out? I think it might be ponies o 'clock. Yeah. It's hijacking ponies. This week.

1:20:36Andy Greenwald:And when's Night of the Seven Kingdoms? That is next week. Tell the people. Some of us have already watched ponies. I'm good. I do the homework. Once. Amazing performance by you today. It's really a throwback. I've got nothing left to lose. Thanks to Andy for everything he does for this show. Oh, so we're keeping the part where you open your computer and say, I think it's fine. It's the end of the pod. Nobody cares, right? This is when the real heads tune in. Do you want to actually do five minutes after dark right now about the Eagles? Or is Sheil having you on the Ringer Filly special? I already recorded.

1:21:14Andy Greenwald:Did you? No. Do you want to talk about the Eagles? Do you want to talk about the Eagles? What's your take? That for as much as I love them as an institution and for as much as I have historically enjoyed cheering for this iteration of the team, this was a miserable fucking experience for the last couple of months. And I'm not happy that it's over and I'm not happy that the Eagles lost to the Niners, but I'm glad I do not have to watch 19 points a game again. No, this was a joyless slog. I love the defense. I love men who are on the offense. They do. But I did not enjoy how those men came together and worked together.

1:21:54Andy Greenwald:Nor did I like the week-to-week gaslighting of, we have to do a little bit of a better job of communicating and do a little bit better in those situations, and we're just ready to, you know, once we get on the same page. Yeah, I'm glad the press conferences are over. I'm glad. It's Howie season. Let that man cook. And, yeah, I'm curious to see what happens with the offensive coordinator job. Who you got? I mean, you know me. I'm a mad scientist. I love Mike McD. I would love Cliff. And I'm just a vibes guy. So the fact that Vic Fangio just walked out of Miami rather than work for Mike McDaniel, the idea of them both being at the Novocare Complex is very fun.

1:22:33Team of rivals, right? Worked for Lincoln.

1:22:35Andy Greenwald:And who among us is more like Abraham Lincoln than Nicholas Sirianni? Just a man of great vision, of temperate spirit. It's really beautiful. I've been watching... Now, now, now! I have not watched as many Ken Burns documentaries as you. Yeah, I just... I am at peace. We won the Super Bowl. That's awesome. If we had not won the Super Bowl last year and this was the follow-up... I have to tell you something. You're not at peace. Compared to what I could have been? Sure. Yeah. Do you feel that... Do you think that this was a classic post-game podcast for me in terms of like... Do you think my energy matched?

1:23:16I do wonder what your Landman takes would have been if you had watched Landman earlier in the week.

1:23:21Andy Greenwald:I would have been like, Ainsley makes some good points. She's just trying to have a good time. And Pagan's kind of a buzzkill. That's probably true. I just, I spend a lot more time, like when we text, you know, I think it's unsurprising. Like our friend Zach is really, he's in the X's and O's. He's crushing the all 22. He has a lot of points of view about under center, play action, how it could be deployed. and I'm like Fred Johnson and Jordan Davis seem like beautiful men I enjoy when they play fun games on Instagram for the social media team and I want them to be happy and the team let them down especially Jordan Davis and the Kobe team we have to find out who's responsible for this that's your vibe like Tim Robinson in the hot dog suit who's responsible for the way I feel Kevin Petullo And Nicholas, honest Abe, Sirianni.

1:24:25Andy Greenwald:And I am, this has never happened in my modern sports fandom where I am actually so eager for next weekend. I actually was like, it seems so nice to have a psychologically uncomplicated weekend in my future. But it's frustrating because this whole thing was wide open. And if they had just been able to actually have a semi-decent offense, I think we could have. Well, this is your opportunity to become a true Angeleno. Get behind the Rams. is that where you're at who you got I think the Bears you like our new villain Ben Johnson it's football man it's not the United Nations I don't understand why are people scandalized that he was like fuck the Packers same I don't have nothing against the Packers it's football do we have to adopt a horse in the NFC no I mean I guess I do not like the Broncos I guess I kind of like the Seahawks and I want Mina to be happy.

1:25:21Andy Greenwald:That's NFC. I will... I feel like it is incumbent upon us now that we have actually had sustained success and we are not perpetual underdogs. I feel like Buffalo... They deserve it? I want Buffalo to win. I do. That's a town that deserves... You've always been a Kathy Hochul guy. Look what she did in nine days when she had a little pep in her step thanks to Gracie Manchin. New energy. That's right. Did you mention Kathy Hochul because I mentioned former governor David Patterson and you wanted to prove your bona fides as an upstate guy? Do you call it bona fides or bona fides? I say bona fides.

1:25:58Yeah, I say that too.

1:25:59Andy Greenwald:Do you say niche or niche? Niche. Okay. What do you say? I kind of read the room. Niche or niche? Niche. All right, we can wrap it up. Okay. That's how we wrap it up. If or nothing, if not niche. That's great. podcast. It's one of my favorites. My last one was memorable.