Is ‘Avengers: Doomsday’ Dead on Arrival? Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 5.

20:48Andy Greenwald:Yeah, sure. But I found it very interesting that, you know, not only some of the highlights over the last four years, which Deadline accumulated, some stats from like basically the era that they were doing biannual reporting. And there are some interesting things like among the top 20 shows over the last four years, Eric Bana's Forest Ranger show Untamed, which nary a person I think other than me watched. Say more about that. Well, I like mountains. And I like national parks. I like Eric Bana. I like Eric Bana. Is it a scripted series or does he just go to mountains? Honestly, it probably would have been better if it was the latter, but it is a scripted series.

21:27And while I enjoyed it, it's a real, like, this should have been a three-episode show or a two-hour movie, but instead now we have four or five episodes that are about, like, your complicated relationship with your daughter.

21:40Andy Greenwald:Now, hold on. Now I'm interested. I think also given the fact that we kind of dropped off Squid Game, After season one. We did. And I could never really tell how popular it was. It is insanely popular. And is the, I believe, the most recent. There's two seasons of Squid Game in the top three shows of the last four years. Adolescence is number two. And it speaks to what a phenomenon that was. And I would be shocked knowing that if they didn't figure out a way. if not to like bring back that specific character group to do something anthology around it. I believe it's happening. I mean, it just is like, this was lightning in a bottle.

22:26Andy Greenwald:There were rumors that our, the friend of our pod, dear friend Kate Winslet, was circling a role in a second season of Adolescence. Really? I don't know if, I don't know that's based on anything. I mean, I believe I got that from Turning Point, as I say, as well, but. So those are some of the, you know, Adolescence, The Gentleman did very well over the last four years. Basically, all of Stranger Things is in the top 20 for the last four years. From this year and from January to June, this is their top 10. Okay. His and hers. Which, by the way, I'm shocked by. Me too. Not, you know, not because we're not stakeholders in Bernthal Holdings Limited.

23:00I'm legitimately like, I had no idea that this was essentially a blockbuster. It's above Bridgerton season four.

23:06Andy Greenwald:It was not well received, I would say, by critically. Yeah. But clearly, audiences disagree. That's the Tessa Thompson, John Bernthal thriller. Bridgerton, I Will Find You, which I think is one of the Harlan Coben shows. Stranger Things season five, the last season, which I guess technically came out in 25, right? I would hope so, because otherwise, Stranger Things season five getting half the numbers of his and hers would be catastrophic. Well, I don't know if it's half the numbers or is it like a decimal point below, but I'm just reading. Or is it that most people were so excited about the show they watched it the minute it came out?

23:37Yes, and I also like Netflix's way of calculating its popularity could have to do more with, I mean, they say it had 56 million, I think, views. Sure. I think there's another 50 million who watched it the day it came out. And season five also was broken down. It's such like a long stretch out. Runaway, I don't know what that is. Teach You a Lesson, I don't know what that is. One Piece, you know what that is. Well played. Man on Fire, which to my great regret, we did not discuss, was number eight. Miss Rachel, number nine, and The Night Agent season three, number 10. Okay. Do you look at that and divine any great learnings?

24:22Not particularly.

24:24Andy Greenwald:I mean, I think that everything that we recognize on here, I think tracks to us as what works on Netflix. And certainly one of the reasons we know that is because they make a lot of shows that feel like these shows, that fit into certain boxes. things that will work better on their service. I think the bigger conversation here is more about what you were saying in terms of how they are evolving their service and the future that they see for it. The A side to this B side story about how they're going to change their reporting is they missed their earnings again and their stock tumbled considerably this week.

25:02Andy Greenwald:Their stock dropped 9.5%. It's the second straight miss that they've had. And the financial reporting, of which I'm responsible for none and I don't fully understand, said that it was mostly to do with a reassessment of what the company's strengths and plans are after the failed Warner Brothers bid, which I think perplexed investors. And sort of mixed results for what they care about in terms of the expansion. That's why the other story this week that was bubbling was people were asking Netflix, when are you going to launch a fast service? When are you going to launch an ad-supported service? When are you going to— They have some ad tiers, and now they've talked about having some always-on channels on Netflix.

25:47Andy Greenwald:So there's two ways to look at it. One way to look at it is Netflix is a juggernaut and can experiment with almost anything, and it is still kind of de facto streaming TV for most households, and that's an advantage that the other companies can never reach, a gulf they can never reach. The other version of looking at it is they're trying anything. They are trying anything to try to get some purchase, like get their boots on the ground of something sustainable because the go, go, go, we will just keep spending to show growth to get investor confidence, that inevitably hits some sort of a ceiling.

26:27Andy Greenwald:and again this is not me concern trolling Netflix but it is interesting in terms of its identity and the way we always approach it from what we do here is what is the scripted television like what is what are their calling cards what is their business in that and I wonder if internally what the ratio of what's the Venn diagram of Netflix's value and growth areas when you're actually in the boardrooms Is it how do we expand into live programming and sports to become the de facto hub? Is it do we do a commercial tier? How loud are the voices saying, no, no, more Stranger Things original shows on Broadway?

27:10Andy Greenwald:Right. Literally, though, like in terms of like merch and K-pop Demon Hunters and becoming a brand in that sense. I don't know. But it's an interesting moment to see a company that is absolutely dominant struggling. And I'm putting that in quotes. It is not struggling. But in terms of its identity. It's cash positive now. It's just one of those, if I remember the most recent thing I read, it was like Netflix is actually making money. It's just that it's stock price and it's like perception to the town and to Wall Street is a little bit rusty right now. And when you become, when you return to opacity, when you get less transparent, let's say, with your data, which is what they're doing by going from twice a year to once a year, that will make people skittish.

27:52I think my big learning from this is there is now a Netflix genre and that it's not quite CBS but bingeable and it's not quite like Apple but a little bit faster and dirtier and, you know, there's something about this sort of like, there's a lot of grabby thrillers. there's a lot of genre stuff but genre stuff that isn't like I don't find particularly like what I go to for genre.

28:25Andy Greenwald:Like the Coben industry. Yeah or maybe even Night Agent which I think like I watched a little bit of the first season and thought it was fine and that was but the idea that it's a juggernaut show is kind of surprising to me but it's interesting because you and I spend so much time talking about these HBO shows and talking about these Apple shows and you know other streamers and this is really obviously like dwarfs a lot of what we talk about in terms of how many people are watching this but i don't really find many shows there to talk about in order to really like interrogate and maybe that's my failing as a as a commentator you know but there maybe is like a transition here where you're seeing the end of the peter friedlander era who was there when they were putting up ripley and maybe some of their international purchases were more interesting yeah and he was there for a very long time Now he's at Amazon.

29:15And I don't think they really care about whether or not they win Best Drama at the Emmys. I mean, I think Adolescence is really nice for them. I think Baby Ranger is really nice for them. Baby Ranger has done historically well for them over the last four or five years. But I don't really see a ton of stuff on here where they're like, ooh, wish we could be competing with White Lotus this year.

29:32Andy Greenwald:Well, the other thing that they've abandoned for the most part is third seasons. And increasingly, two seasons is starting to seem like a lot. And that is because they are so cutthroat about the data and they're like, the numbers go down. They're abandoning those for the shows that we might watch. They're not abandoning it for like Ransom Canyon and Virgin River. No, but those shows don't get seven years. There's a couple that do. Well, like Lincoln Lawyer, I think, just got cut down after five and that's a huge show for them. Yeah, but they have like a kind of weird like middle-aged CW kind of show where it's like a guy who has a general store.

30:07Andy Greenwald:Do you know what the CW stands for? Conventional wisdom. They have like those shows where it's like, she's a divorced mom and he bridles horses. First of all, Minka Kelly deserves paychecks. So I think that's awesome. Two, inside baseball on this, years ago, when Netflix was getting into scripted, I remember there would be interviews with Tina Fey and they'd be like, oh, Tina, you've only made shows for NBC and now you're making this case. It was Kimmy Schmidt. Yeah. And they were like, what are you learning? You know, what insights are you getting? And she's like, they tell us nothing. We know nothing about who's watching our show or what they think about it.

30:45Andy Greenwald:We just deliver it and we don't have to do 21 minutes anymore. We can go longer. I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore. But I recently was having a conversation with the head of a studio who works with Netflix. And his point was they remain incredibly opaque about algorithmic data, about like who, what, when. the thing that drives every decision they make is next next next that is their note and you can tell by the shows that they make is will you end on a beat so undeniable that people will start watching the next thing the next one and it's interesting to I would I would put this out to our audience too if you're watching a show on a different service maybe even one that drops shows weekly but you start to feel that cadence look in the trades and see who is bidding on it because there are examples out there of shows that were expressly developed for Netflix or for that model that have ended up on other services on Apple or whatever yeah that don't do it yeah and I wonder if that changes your interaction and on the flip side of that I will say Tina Fey her most recent creation for Netflix is the Four Seasons oddly has lots of like grabby kind of like are they gonna break up moments where like most of the show is like people making kind of like affectionate mid-funny jokes about Thanksgiving dinner and then at the end it's like but whose baby is this you know like did you watch the second season I did yeah we don't talk about this stuff because there's like a kind of television watching experience that I have with my wife where we watch half hour comedies as a kind of a come down like a bedtime routine yeah like it's like a oh I it was weird in retrospect it was weird when you invited me over that time sort of like let's settle right in the middle guys what's on tonight I mean that's the invite that's what the invite's about truly I have watched into season two of four seasons but I like you I'm like I don't really have anything insightful to say you're different than me in that I don't think that you want to watch television to feel completely brain dead like I think you're always like is this good and I'm like I don't really care you know like there is a kind of television that I will watch that is essentially like watching pain dry yeah and sometimes I just need to turn it off man it's on a lot the brain yeah yeah I'm trying to think if I uh no not really I mean I think that the equivalent for that for me is like ending the night with like my younger daughter's really really obsessed with like um treasure hunting the last 10 years of the Simpsons we talked about this so she'll be like there's a funny one in episode 34.

33:31Andy Greenwald:I'm like that with SVU. Are you? I'm like, there's a cult in this one. Let's go. That's nice, though. I feel like there's some service-y elements we could be exploiting in this. An SVU. How to watch SVU. Simpsons victim unit. A deplorable person. Let's talk about House of the Dragon. I was very curious to know how you would feel. I don't even... Did we talk about the last one together? Or was I gone? I think I referred to it in passing. You were gone and then I was, I think I was. You talked to Joe about it. Yes. And I believe I used the words fucking interminable. How did you feel about this one?

34:06Andy Greenwald:Even longer. Yeah. It is a absolute struggle for me and I don't get a lot of pleasure out of it. However, I do have three points of light because I do like to be positive. Is there anything about this episode that you would like to highlight or shout out? because the feeling that I dislike most that the show services mostly now is this inexorable churn towards plot points. And I feel the weight of characters interacting just to get to the next plot point with very little room for brightness or light or even a feeling of, obviously nothing about the show is improv, but any kind of spark as opposed to churning towards the gloom and doom that we are headed towards.

34:53Andy Greenwald:And I find that just that is a television experience that I do not enjoy. I wouldn't get your hopes up about this being an upbeat show. So, I mean, like, obviously there's there's going to be probably a degree to which the storytelling and the tone of the show mirrors what its eventual conclusion is. I will say that the reason why I've been a little bit more forgiving or into these last couple of episodes than you is that I am far more interested in this particular set of characters that have been kind of introduced over maybe this season especially I wish they were the original lineup like I wish this had been three seasons with these people rather than three episodes as they've kind of broken out of the Targaryen, Valerian camp and started to bring in Starks and different people coming to petition Rhaenyra.

35:43And I'm like, that guy's interesting. This person's interesting. I kind of now wish that this entire show had been a little bit more outside the walls of King's Landing. Listen. And I can see what they're trying to do. I think the Rhaenyra, like, in some ways, I think what they're doing with Rhaenyra is more sure-handed than what they did with Daenerys. I don't even know if that's a controversial statement, but in terms of depicting how someone starts to become undone.

36:13Andy Greenwald:Absolutely. And, you know, that is, in a positive note, because she has reclaimed the throne and has had not just a number of episodes, but that one episode in particular that was the real-life season standout. Yes. There's room to maneuver a performance towards something and not indicate. You know, I think one of the nice things about, my God, Emma Darcy performance is that it's not telegraphing. It is quite present. Almost to the point of like, you kind of feel like Damon being like, you're still hung up on that. Well, she's being suffocated by like, the fact that every conversation she has opens up a trap door of another problem.

36:53Yes. Yeah.

36:54Andy Greenwald:But yeah, I think that's a very smart observation about something that this show does, is able to take more interest in. Like Ormond and Darren, the Stark Wolves Kristen Cole and Gwaine specifically being like Gorilla Army even like random scenes where it's like Jane of Aaron you know Jane Aaron of the Vale or whatever her name is like she's like kind of got something and but I think it would be cool there's probably not enough plot to have done what's the Vale been doing the entire time this show is going on well exactly in what you said. There's not enough textual plot. Like, a creative enterprise that was differently enabled and empowered could come up with a good story.

37:40Andy Greenwald:Sure. You know, to set there in the backdrop of something, but that's not the show. That's an adaptation. I mean, what are you going to do, right? Well, there's some things you could do. Yeah. But that is not the remit of the show. And I'm not going to sit here for the first straight year. Sunshine and Graham Crackers. What's going on? What did you love? I, because, let me do let me do just one more like kidney punch before we get started just that I'm watching the show week to week and there are moments where I'm like man they're hanging some of these actors out to dry and like the dude who plays Eamon and like when he got his script you know he's sitting in his trailer and he's putting on his wig or they're brushing out his long locks I think it's a wig and it's like we don't know I mean I would imagine it's a wig it's probably a wig and really damage your hair bleaching it like that.

38:30Andy Greenwald:And people do things for their art. Yeah, Chris, you know? And he's like, okay, what am I going to do today? And it's just like, Aemond wakes up half nude screaming about dragons in hell in a haunted bed. He's like, yeah, I can see that. He's like, all right, go. And he's like, no, mother! Can we get a little more on the no? It's like, dude. He's even Targaryen. He's not going to be managing a fantasy Premier League team. I'm like, I don't know what you want him to be doing. It's not what I want him to be doing. It's just like, first of all, we are fucking back in the haunted house again with the trees.

39:04I am not a Harrenhal guy. It's so boring.

39:06Andy Greenwald:But second, it's just like - I like Grace Rankin and Alice, and she's interesting. Gail Rankin is here on my list. Sorry, Gail Rankin. But it's just like, there are incredible performers elevating almost every scene. And I think that if you just look at the bones of it, some of these scenes are pretty thankless in terms of the opportunities for actors to do what they do best and to enliven something. So I wanted to shout out three performers on this show who I look forward to seeing every time they're on the screen. And one, I have to highlight because it is a zero to hero arc, which is our guy, Fabian Frankel, as Kristen Cole.

39:41Andy Greenwald:I'm not, you know, you know I'm, if nothing else, I'm accountable. How much of this is Detective Grosso? 50%. The key for House of the Dragon characters is for them to appear on episodes of Task. The key for House of the Dragon characters is for me to have seen them be good in other things and then look forward to seeing if they're able to just like flash like a signs of life, like come rescue me kind of thing. Kristen Cole is a thankless part, I felt, for the first two years. And because of that, I don't think we thought much of the actor playing him, which was unfair as it turns out. Speak for yourself.

40:18Andy Greenwald:You were a little bit with me until you heard him talk like he was from fucking Upper Broomall. I thought he was cool. You thought he was cool? I thought he was interesting and cool, yeah. What was the coolest thing about Sir Christian Cole? I'll wait. Just like, just riff a little bit. Pretty loyal. Loyal guy. He does work above his duties. You know what I mean? He's willing to... He goes the extra 10%. He does. This season, taking him out of the claustrophobic court and making him be a warrior in a Tim O 'Brien novel, basically, works for him. I'm absolutely watching him through the eyes of seeing what he was capable of doing as another deeply misguided soldier in task.

41:07Andy Greenwald:Sure. But I thought this episode in particular, when his arc is kill your horse, help your friends with his leeches, and then convince everyone to go on a suicide run, that's something an actor can work with. Sure. And I thought that he has, like, his, what I mistook for, like, lack of charisma in this episode, you realize, is kind of a steady, slow burn. And I thought he's great. And I enjoyed the scenes with Gwaine because we love Freddie Fox. Absolutely. They have the best, I think, among the best chemistry, like, those two and then Laris and Agon. Yeah, I agree. And it is a constant reminder.

41:45Andy Greenwald:And, again, I don't want to sit here, as I do, for weeks, and years and seasons of these shows being like, oh, we know better because we see something. You're obviously like, I have, just for the crew, I have stipulated that we do not need to do this. And so I think you're interested in the project and how they go about doing it. I've decided to, truly, I know I don't always sound like it, but I'm trying to look for the helpers. Look to the helpers. And when you see good, interesting actors with chemistry paired off or so much of the season devoted to them, that is not a fluke I think that the people making the show are empowered to do that because they are also interested in seeing what the people who can deliver can do so I really like those scenes big Tom Glyn Carney guy who plays Aegon like he is just even even with only one ear and one kind of stumpy ear hole one of the more charismatic actors on the show have had season tickets since Rogue Heroes yeah and I've I've talked about this I saw him in All My Sons on the West End, and he had a very, very brief appearance.

42:50Andy Greenwald:He has the smallest part, and when he comes on, he's just a lefty reliever coming in, just throwing gas. Just West End big-time to me. That's okay. Well, I love theater, and you like action shows, but that's what we make it work. What's your take on the Aegon storyline? It's hard to talk about because I've read ahead. What? I like it. I like that they are pairing him with another person who is now deformed and is kind of like, this is the way the world sees you, and this is the way you can still get ahead. Each one of these plot lines, each one of these planks of the show, at any given moment, does not have enough going on for a full episode.

43:33It's true. And the way that they've chosen to do it, which is cross-cutting across these, say, five storylines that they've got going. I think it's probably the way they can get to eight episodes of television and eight hours and 40 minutes or nine hours, however long the runtime winds up being. But to your point about, who are you saying that, oh, maybe it was Eamon, where you're just like, what am I doing today? It's like, they don't really do much different from episode to episode. I mean, for as much as I love the Rhaenyra episode two episodes ago, she is pretty much in the same exact

44:11Andy Greenwald:space it was a different way of looking at that and I like it it's okay you know but there is not a there is neither a propulsion because it's such a breakneck show right nor is there a concept of what it needs to be to be episodic to keep this thing kind of feeling light and I am I'm committed to this and I like it and I kind of just want to see how they execute some of the stuff that I think is coming or some of the stuff I know is coming. But it's really weird. It's a very specific kind of writing that I don't know if it would work if there wasn't this sort of like carrot being dangled of like there's some big battles coming.

44:54Andy Greenwald:And I do think my feelings about, I mean, the assignment of the show was always going to be challenging because it was the inverse of Game of Thrones. And the challenge of the show is what are you going to do when the dragons aren't the main characters of an episode? Yeah. And I think that... I prefer it, though. I prefer that generally, but I think the show has struggled to answer that question successfully week to week over the seasons. So you would rather have people be like, ah, Sirax, my beautiful beast, you know? Keep going. I would pay to watch you do that longer. No, I'm not arguing four more dragons.

45:26Andy Greenwald:I'm saying that House of the Dragons season three, despite being functionally better than season two in many, many ways, and much more professionalized and capable of higher highs and honestly a higher floor as well, I think, week to week. I think that it is suffering post-Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Because... Oh, this is like dropping Doomsday after the Odyssey. It's exact... Thank you. It's just more that, like, Night of the Seven Kingdoms almost casually introduced us to different archetypes, different arcs, and different emotions that we heretofore did not know were possible in Westeros.

46:01Andy Greenwald:And House of the Dragon is still saddled with storylines like, I will teach the child to stab an innocent man in the heart. That will show him the way of the world. And I feel like that is a lesson that we have all learned repeatedly over the last 15 years on television and otherwise. And so, but that is what the show is. I mean, that is the world that they're existing in. And I think it's trying to iterate, honestly. Yeah. And in good faith. The last performance you mentioned is Gail Rankin, who is a really good actor from Perry Mason and from Glow. And she's playing Alice, the witch queen of Harrenhal.

46:35Andy Greenwald:and again this might be like prior fandom i just think she's a cool performer but i she has a little bit of twinkle in her eye like she does have some wit when all these people keep coming to attack her yes and she's lying to them that suggests some life right like i think she plan when the last group of raiders come i think she kind of lets herself get taken captured captive to like entice Eamon to regain his spirit. Sometimes I'll be like, oh, I don't know what to say about this. And then you jump in and I'm like, that's right. Because I say, I like to save my friend. It's like that human, was it the human giant sketch about like the most successful moving company in New York where like to move the piano, they put a child underneath it.

47:20Andy Greenwald:And then the mother shows up and goes, my child and lifts the piano because there's no strength greater than a child in peril. That's what's going on here. Just real quick, that's a Lannister. that shows up with Aegon? Yes. And that's the Lannister who was on the boat? Yeah, it's Tylan or Jason. I can't remember which one. One got their head cut off, so he's definitively dead. We are getting into a dangerous period with this show where if they don't show you the body, it probably means the guy's still alive. And they've done that twice this season. They did with Corlys. Corlys and once with this guy, yeah.

47:53Andy Greenwald:You want Habeas Corpus. I'm just saying this is why the Stannis freaks from Game of Thrones still are among us where they're just like, we never saw it, brother. So this is actually, this came up the other week. We were texting this. The Stannis Melisandre stuff is so interesting in retrospect because we, and I say we, like the audience of Game of Thrones, spent so much time with those characters. And in the new parlance of television, which is really about return on investment, it's like, well, what was that for? What was the point? And it's such an interesting and more contemporary framing that just invalidates 40, 50 years of television.

48:40Andy Greenwald:Sure. Now, you could make the case, I don't actually know this, but I think that the Stannis story was already ended in the books when they were telling it on the screen. So people were like, oh, I can't wait to see how... We know that he's not a real contender. The film version of what I've been... Yes. but we also still enjoy the time spent on it and Stephen Delaney was really good in that part but the Melisandre thing was still questionable and then she shows up later because there's the woman that never popped up in the show that was supposed to be maybe Catelyn Stark Lady Stoneheart? that's not Melisandre in retrospect my favorite thing we had a real rich Thrones adventure we were on television we were talking about it and still every time Jason or Mallory would be like well, you know, they're not doing Lady Stoneheart.

49:29Andy Greenwald:I'd be like, can you just talk me through that again? And they're like, remember? It's not Lady Stoneheart level, but Nettles is supposed to be, you know, is in Fire and Blood. Did you say, you know? I do not. Yeah. Sir, who is Nettles? Nettles is basically being folded into Reyna's storyline, I believe. But who is? It's just another character who's like a dragon rider. Greg Nettles? Yeah. Is he a pitcher? Craig. Craig. Yeah. Craig Nettles. And I think he was a utility infielder. Yeah. Like a kind of Jose Oquendo type. I like that we both closed our computers. No way of knowing. But, no, but like the Lady Stoneheart thing where I'd be like, oh my God, I'm still shaken up by the Red Wedding.

50:06Andy Greenwald:Like that was one of the most intense things ever on television. It was so surprising. And it was like, well, you know, Caitlin comes back. I'm like, maybe it's good to do an adaptation and cherry pick a little bit. But anyway, you get what I'm saying in terms of our conversation about House of the Dragon. Because it is a history, quote unquote, because it is being made now, there isn't room for these little narrative, I don't even call them flights of fancy, but it's like little exploratory runs. You know, what do they say when watching the World Cup? They're like, oh, a lovely little questioning run on the left line.

50:42I think that's why the Aegon and Laris storyline is so pleasant to watch because it has so many Thrones echoes because it feels like Brienne on the road with Jaime or whatever.

50:52Andy Greenwald:But it also feels, again, And I could be very much mistaken about this. And please, you won't spoil it, I know. But like, it does not feel connected in a way that it feels like it is moving towards something unexpected or new. Yeah. That's probably not the case. But I do, just generally, that's probably one of the causes of my lingering allergy to the show is that you just don't feel that spark of like people discovering something as writers or performers or whatever. It's more claustrophobic. So we got three more. Yeah. Yeah. Which feels like it's really a rich vein for us. Do you want to talk about The Prisoner?

51:27Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I love it. I love it when a 4 p.m. text comes with some good ideas. Yeah. So The Prisoner is a show from 1967 and 1968 from England that has been a little bit of like a cult classic in the TV world for decades. It's popped up here and there on physical media. there's some like a uk dvd there's a blu-ray there was a box that i think arrow might have done it it's just one of those shows that if if we were a proper country we would probably be able to create a criterion channel for television and maybe that's a project you and i can do on some late summer dead week is like what would we put in like our first 10 or 15 or 20 shows and it's not always the best but it you know these criterion does these uh physical media releases for films and obviously gives the films like a kind of unified aesthetic in terms of their graphic design and now it's become this kind of almost like this label or brand that people are like i i blind by the thing on criterion because it means film excellence it means like true exploration of the like what's great about the cinematic arts and we don't really have that for television and a lot of is because television has largely been a function of selling advertising over the years.

52:46And there's all these complicated rights issues. And it's like a studio made it but sold it to a network that then offloaded it to this other network or streamer. And this is why we wait around decades for Homicide to show up on streaming or My So-Called Life still isn't on streaming, right? It's music rights. Right, it's music rights. So the show The Prisoner is a little bit different than, say, Homicide or My So-Called Life. it's more of a I would say acquired taste is also a cult classic you know and it is hugely influential it's a 17 episode run I believe of two seasons two series it was created by Patrick one series one series so 17 episodes one series Patrick McGowan who's the creator it's also the star and he worked with David Markstein who I believe directed a lot of it and it is essentially a sci-fi spy show it's the easiest way i can describe it and has been accredited for having a huge influence on x-files on twin peaks on the truman show on inception and on the matrix i would throw another one in there after watching it last night which is a good place yeah like intensely intensely so and uh i i think it's like just a really cool thing for people to check out.

54:02It was very funny. Last night I was watching a couple of episodes and I had initially sort of been like, do you, to my wife, I was like, do you want to watch this show, The Prisoner, with me? And she was like, what's it about? And I told her and she was like, no, no thanks.

54:13Andy Greenwald:She was like, why don't you invite Andy over to blind down with that one? She heard it in the other room and she was like, is this old timey? And I was like, no, it's old. And she was like, I thought it was new and they were doing old timey. And I was like, no, I mean, it's just the late 60s. Is that old timey now, I guess? Yeah. But the cutting style, the art direction, the music, it's very much of its time. Yes. But it's also, I mean, you can see Nolan editing patterns in The Prisoner. So it stands to reason that Nolan has twice gotten pretty close to remaking it as a film, as has Ridley Scott.

54:56So this is a really interesting show. The entire series is up on the Criterion channel if you have it. But I just thought we could talk a little bit about this as like a touchstone in modern television.

55:05Andy Greenwald:It's also worth noting the show was remade in 2009 for AMC. Ian McKellen, Jim Caviezel. Jim Caviezel was not particularly well regarded. Certainly not in the shadow of its predecessor. Right. I was really thrilled to do this because as someone who grew up reading TV Guide for the articles, this was a reference that dominated. Yeah. I don't think it's possible to overstate how influential, not even the show itself, because it was hard to watch for a number of decades, but how influential the idea of the show was, that it was a hallmark of any even half-assed article name-checking when the Times TV has been bold or interesting.

55:47Andy Greenwald:And so when Twin Peaks came out at the end of the 80s and early 90s, and I was obsessed with it, The Prisoner was back in the conversation. Yeah, because Mark Frost was like, there's no Twin Peaks without The Prisoner, basically. But what's interesting, and I think that I'd seen clips maybe or had sought something out or maybe it was on PBS, but I definitely have never been able to sit down and watch it like I just did yesterday. And kudos to Criterion because it is on Criterion. It looks amazing. It looks fantastic. So that's really exciting too to see it in a way that it's even better probably than it's ever been seen before.

56:16Andy Greenwald:But it was very interesting to see something that is so deeply influential to artistically minded and aesthetically minded art and television in particular. but it is not a one-to-one in any sense. There is nothing, because the Twin Peaks thing is, it's David Lynch on television. But then the idea that there was even a small, safe space on television for something that didn't feel right, you know, that felt off, that felt confusing, that didn't hold your hand, you owe that to The Prisoner, I think, above anything else. And the setup for the show is very straightforward. in a brilliant pre-title sequence.

56:57Which they replay. Which is wordless. A spy resigns from MI6 or whatever and drives home to his place in Westminster.

57:07Andy Greenwald:In a very normal car. In a very spy car. And he goes into his flat and... He's packing, right? ...is gassed and falls asleep. And when he wakes up, he is in a seaside village, place unknown, side of the Iron Curtain unknown, side of reality unknown and in this village everything is accounted for it's a very good place like Andy mentioned like you know you go to the labor exchange and you get a job and you go do these things and there's like a kind of political class and there's senior citizens are taken care of there there's a little cafe and beaches everybody's wearing these sort of brightly colored like kind of very geometric patterned capes and cloaks and stuff and frocks.

57:52But, you know, obviously this rough and tumble spy is like, where am I? What's going on? Who's in charge here? How do I get out of here? And I'll just say in the first episode, you are introduced to the idea that not only is there constant surveillance and a lot of subterfuge going on in this village, but a blobby white balloon floats over the village and is capable of sucking people into it and killing them. That was the part that engaged

58:20Andy Greenwald:my nine-year-old the most. Oh, yeah. The horror balloon. Yeah. And grown men running from balloons. Yes. I think she liked that. But, you know, there's parts of it that are cut and feel like, I don't know, like late 60s mod culture films, you know? The other thing that I would say that you should watch just for reference is Austin Powers. Sure. Because there's something of that too. Very, very, very, very influenced, I think, probably by this. Patrick McGowan's performance, especially in the first one too, where he just like, just yells at everyone. Yeah. And so the other interesting thing about it is, you know, it is intentionally surreal.

58:58Andy Greenwald:And the surreality is both aesthetic and cultural, like for the like mad Carnaby Street vibes, but also very much about like surveillance and who do you work for and who sent you and what is truth and what do I owe? And things that happen in the first few episodes that probably don't register as much to us in like a post-Google Translate society. Sure. But like someone speaks French and then someone responds in German. And it's like, where do your allegiances lie? Who is responsible for this? Which is much more Cold War coded. But the other thing that I found really interesting is there is no, this is when it gets into like James Joyce territory.

59:34Andy Greenwald:Did you know that there is no agreed upon order to watch this series? So the second episode, the one that aired second, the one that Criterion calls episode two, it's called The Chimes of Big Ben, was the fifth produced episode. and instantly when you watch it you are once again um discomfited and like unclear about what's going on for reasons that are intentional like that's the vibe of the show and one of the conceits of the show is that our main character number six is uh being bossed around and surveilled by the person who is nominally in charge number two yeah there is no number one number two just says like you could make this all go away if you told me why you resigned but in all 17 episodes, number two is played by a different guest star.

1:00:18Andy Greenwald:So number two is always different. So you would, you can be forgiven if you're like a little bit confused. But then you keep watching episode two, and Patrick McGowan's number six has a completely different personality than he did in the first episode. He's much funnier and he's much more charming, and he's much more willing to sort of play along, honestly more like a spy, and it makes it a more pleasant watch. But it's also like, is this the fifth episode of the second. What is time? And is that on purpose? So there's a rabbit hole inside the rabbit hole. Yeah, and I think it's a different era of making television where they maybe, maybe they got a note that was like, this guy needs to be nicer.

1:00:58You know, like this guy needs to be funnier. And because of that,

1:01:00Andy Greenwald:and not just a note, it's of an era when BBC or whoever put it, I think it was BBC broadcast it, because I don't think there were any other channels. Yeah. Was like, we're going to put this one on next. Sure. Because that's what we're going to do. Yeah. But it is, here's the thing that I really liked the most about it. And I wish that there, I wish that you could take this piece and inject it into contemporary television. I have no idea. I've not done the deep research. I've not watched the whole series. I have no idea if Patrick McGowan and his collaborators launched the series knowing quote unquote the answers.

1:01:37Andy Greenwald:If they had a plan, you know, just like the vocabulary that sprung up around Lost. What I do know is that there is such a swinging sense of fun and discovery and gamesmanship in a playful way, not like in an aggressive, I'm going to frustrate Reddit way, that is so welcome. Yeah. And one of the reasons I think that exists is because of the way that it's shot and scored. Because contemporary television is so dependent on, in the same way movies are, I think as well, of like having the way that you film it, cut it, and most importantly score it indicate heavy importance. Like this is ominous now.

1:02:16Andy Greenwald:Well, there's also like a real emphasis in television, I think on coverage and making sure like you got that shot, that shot, that shot. And that way also if they want to meddle with it or if there's a supervising producer or whatever, they can go in and do their cut of the show. You want to underline this more. Whereas there, especially in this first episode, like I can't imagine there was that much coverage because everything is this like high angled shot through. Of a Welsh village where they shot the exterior. So it's just very, it's a very disorienting and pleasantly disorienting show. Apologies to our friends in England.

1:02:48Andy Greenwald:It was not BBC, it was ITV. Oh, I didn't know they were around in the late 60s. A little bit independent. Yeah. But do you know what I mean though? The sense that like - For sure. One of the things that contemporary shows do, and there's a reason why you do it, is like you want to give people enough rope to keep climbing. So you want them to know that they have a plan, that there's something to be revealed. But there's a playfulness. this does actually segue from our House of the Dragon conversation, that there is a playfulness possible in Discovery. That for all the things the show does, and I'm not saying it's for everyone, and I'm not saying it's like linear or like a good hang all the time, but there is a sense of playfulness that is kind of infectious if you can get into it.

1:03:25Andy Greenwald:Like you don't need to be doing your homework necessarily. You just kind of have to go with it. And that's not a bad feeling to have with TV. It is not so common anymore. Before we get out of here. Can we do it? Can we talk about it? So let's talk about Rachel Cusk. Kai has been waiting for an hour of this nonsense. Did you know that we were going to talk about this today? No, but I'm thrilled. This is a cool story anyway. So great. Okay, so there is a new Rachel Cusk book. What's it called? Portrait of M? Life of M. Life of M. Can we set up Rachel Cusk a little bit? Yeah, I think we better. Should we?

1:04:00Andy Greenwald:Rachel Cusk is a very culty British novelist. Kai, have you read these books? Do we talk about this? I have not, no. Okay, I feel like we've asked you this before. I apologize. She's kind of known... Have you read any Rachel Kushner? I love Rachel Kushner. That's why she's still here. You know what? That's why she sticks around is because she and I know Kai's room for life. Kai and Sarah are real big. No, Mark's room was too dark for me. I had to... Kai and Sarah are a big outline trilogy. They just don't want to talk about it. She has sort of risen to a certain kind of prominence for her incredibly chilly reported autofiction books.

1:04:35Andy Greenwald:Yes. um her books are a vibe her books are uh an experience her this trilogy that starts with the outline basically follow her just like going to literary conferences and just sort of talking to people who like greek men who take her out on their boats to tell them about their failed sons you know and she's just like then she talks about her shit and her ex-husband is you're like more Far more. So I know I'm selling it, but they are so, they're such a vibe. Like there's an entire book that I read about how she and her then husband took their kids out of school to like live in Italy for a year.

1:05:12Andy Greenwald:And then they go to like a bunch of like, they go to look at frescoes and Abbey's and she's like, everything sucks. It's great. Can't sell it enough. Where have I heard that kind of attitude before? I can't imagine why. But what's incredible then is this was reported this week is that her, she has many fans, you know. Including Natalie Portman. Including Natalie Portman, who part of her, Natalie Portman's public-facing brand is like lifting up novelists. Sure. And she likes books. And who among us? You, Jezelnik, all the greats do it. And the implication here is that Natalie Portman was like, let's hang out or like write about me.

1:05:50Yeah. I can't really get. So the reason why this is a little bit murky is because apparently there are galleys of this book, which is a according to one article on a site called Unheard and then aggregated by the usual trades is an unflattering portrait of Natalie Portman. Who could have guessed?

1:06:10Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And there are galleys of this book and there is an embargo on the reviews, I suppose. so it's like a very strange like social media discourse about it where people are like i see like this site decided to break the embargo but i will save my opinions for when like the real time comes yes but i'm unclear as to whether natalie portman basically was like yes you can embed with me or if this is just about their on again off again relationship they both live in paris now and they both have this sort of mutual appreciation for each other or did until Rachel Cusk wrote what is apparently an unflattering novel about her.

1:06:50But I got to say something, man. Say it. Shout out to Natalie Portman. Okay. Because this is why they don't fucking talk to us anymore. This is why stars are like, sure, I'll make a pizza, but you can't spend more than 12 minutes with me, you know, because they don't want to be observed. They don't want their weird shit broadcast out into the world. So they want to get asked what their Letterboxd Four favorites are, and then they keep it moving you know and like and and and when you see any life in them and everybody's just like wow an iguana you know like this is like how they get treated so for her to be like hmm what what where can we go here with this relationship why don't i have this like absolutely scalpel sharp yes mean writer hang out with me and then write a novel about me is fucking cool like it may not work out well for her but i admire her her doing this what's incredible is the analogy it's very french that she did this it's very french yeah the analogy

1:07:48Andy Greenwald:that i was thinking is like if i was a big fan of like in cooking like gustav knives i'm like i love cooking with these knives i really enjoy them it's a good product that does what it's supposed to do and they're a part of my life every day that step from that to being like i wonder what it would be like to cut myself with these knives yeah is a bridge too far well it would also just be like anything that we like and you watch... I like watching Lioness. I don't want anything that happens in that show to happen to me. I know. I will say, apropos of the early... the jokes you were making, when you texted me this, my brain autocorrected Kushner.

1:08:32Andy Greenwald:I thought it was Rachel Kushner. And then I was shocked because Rachel Kushner from all of her public... I mean, her books are quite... you know, intellectual and can be tough. But like every interview, she's just like Kim Gordon and I went to get tacos in Echo Park and it was sick. Yeah. I feel like she would be a really cool hang. Yeah. Rachel Kushner is welcome to write a book about me. I think it would be dope. I think it would be great. Do you think which mode would she use? The women in prison mode or the like spy woman going to investigate caves in Bordeaux mode? Like which are you? Can't possibly comment at this time.

1:09:09this is just an exciting development we'll be tracking it as as uh as maybe more official reviews come out i am really hoping it doesn't turn out that it's like this was misinterpreted and it's not actually about natalie portman whatever it's about i just think of all the

1:09:23Andy Greenwald:writers in the world lucy and you know we just didn't know of all the writers on earth there is no writer alive that i would trust more to turn directly to camera and say no it's about that bitch than Rachel Cusk. That is the one that you want. Also, let me just say, kudos to us because I do get a sense sometimes that there is, within our family of podcasts, we do tend to cover some similar things. I imagine the Doomsday trailer will filter its way through Midnight Boys and Big Pic. House of R, everybody, yeah. This is where you come for the discourse about Rachel Cusk, about Yael Doctor O. Julia and Amanda may disagree.

1:10:03Andy Greenwald:They are well-read, literary figures. But I feel like, I just feel like we are carving out a very specific lane for ourselves to enjoy and sometimes Kaya where we can really comment on this. I've not seen you this activated and animated in such a long time. This is the most interesting story. This is your House of the Dragons. This is the most interesting story of the week. Thank you to Kaya, Kai, and Sarah for producing us today. We'll be back on Thursday. We've got to get to the agency. It's really just more about finishing it. I'm sorry. I had third place matches to watch. You know, it just came up.

1:10:35I want it to be done for today, but I think we did a good show either way.

1:10:38Andy Greenwald:I think we did a good show, and also we did a good World Cup. So I think it's okay. See you guys on Thursday.

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