Is ‘Lanterns’ the End of Superhero TV? Plus, ‘Furious’ E5 and the ‘Lioness’ S3 Premiere.

20:31Andy Greenwald:And the insane thing about the commitment to streaming that Disney made, that I'm sure some people were on the rampart screaming about, but was that Disney's brand is imagination and creativity and increasingly spectacle, right? It's not just the Marvel movies that cost upwards of$200 million to make and to put into theaters. Pixar movies cost close to that, too, just because of their insanely grinding creative process and then actually animating the things. So to go into the TV market and say, the things you get on the big screen you're also going to get on TV means you're also spending$200 million for an eight-episode television show, which is insane, especially if that television show is Secret Invasion.

21:11Andy Greenwald:Yes. So it is a dangerous arms race that they were not prepared to stay in. It's the first time I've seen the flywheel break. The flywheel is the legendary Walt Disney idea of like, you know, basically the Imagineers come up with a cool set of characters and story and then it becomes a movie and then it becomes a ride and people get to buy merchandise for it and like you keep going around. And like in this era, the streaming service should make sense because Disney used to control the market on their own home video releases in a way that was really Marlo Stanfield-esque. That's Bob J. Peck's music.

21:46That was his shit. But that was like, we will take Cinderella off the shelves in 60 days and then it won't be back for years. Yep. So buy it now if you want to have this magical experience in your home. And now it's like, that shit is just all in the streaming service. And I think that they encountered something where they had to keep feeding it and now it's because they fed it, it's not as special.

22:11Andy Greenwald:Well, that's true. I mean, I think you're approaching it from like a scarcity standpoint, which is true, it's also true in terms of diminishing creative returns. For sure. Which also then hurt their bread and butter business, which is theatrical release. So I think all of this is to say this is a logical business retrenchment. Like the cartoons work, they service a different audience, and they also provide a kind of collective enthusiasm simmer for other projects. I'm sure they have data that would support this claim, but the X-Men 97 cartoon has triggered some nostalgia and some excitement in the same cohort that needs to go to the multiplex to see the X-Men movie in a year and a half.

23:01How long have you been recording for, by the way?

23:03Andy Greenwald:25 minutes. And you have not apologized for your misinformation about Charles Melton? Okay, I didn't know we were going to do this right now. this is how you this is how you get me this is I believe the same interviewing technique Martin Bashir used Charles Martin turned down X-Men and you say what? I say it's just a shame first of all I mourn any time you are so certain I mourn any time that two sides can't find common ground okay that is that is my number one priority in this business and in life I guess what I want to know Chris is who blinked you know did did Disney blink at the thought of having a generationally talented and good looking guy covered in blue fur for a decade or did our guy Charlie Melton say you know what there are better things to do than sit in a chair or have like ping pong balls all over me for nine years for nine years I mean it is also thanks for giving me a chance to talk about this really I appreciate it it's a weird part I mean Beast Beast is a weird part he's got an arc he has many you know they've been turning him villainous more recently how do you feel about that I didn't know that yeah do you ever watch the show The Beast and Me with Claire Danes that's not the one I'm talking about it's a Disney cartoon no he yeah so from first of all the mantle from Kelsey Grammer to Nicholas Holtz to question mark it's a bummer I didn't mean to interrupt you what we were saying I'm now I'm on a topic I care more about I guess we were just saying that there's other than what?

24:46Andy Greenwald:Let's go through it. WandaVision Loki Season 1 Agatha maybe and some of the specials that you're talking about and Wonder Man it's not like a legacy necessarily to be that proud of. I do think I do wonder if this will also affect there's rumors that it will it seemed to me that they found something smart with the Daredevil series in that it is a ongoing television show? Yeah, well, this is where I wanted to go with this because, you know, I've been very interested in the ongoing debate of movies versus TV and like what kind of holds the consciousness captive, holds like the masses captive in terms of like interest, in terms of not only following along with whatever industry and being up on like movies or shows that are coming out, but just where people seem to be deriving the most satisfaction.

25:37And I think unquestionably it seems to be in a way it seems to be movies this year right like people seem to be going in droves enjoying monocultural events and then talking about them for weeks on end i believe this tracks with your year being on the big picture i think also there is something weird going on where i i think i think there is a little bit of a tv's lost its way kind of vibe happening um I do think that this has been a year where I've been like more surprised when a show is just good, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like I'm like almost like, oh, a good TV show. Well, how about that? We can still do that, huh?

26:20Because we've seen so many things that I feel like are like, holy shit, you guys put this up on a surface? Like, you guys thought this was done?

26:29Andy Greenwald:Yes, I agree with that. I mean, I think that, again, there's like, if we're going macro, I think there's the development of things not everything and not at every place but development is in a very weird place yes um and all you have to do to look at that is look at exactly like some things that made it to air and some things that get canceled or don't even make it that far um well honestly i agree with that we can even we can throw an idea in here right now okay which is the shards which i have not checked out yet but you've watched the first two a fascinating story where It was in development at HBO for a long time, right?

27:04After Brett Easton Ellis released it, both as an audio experience and then as a novel.

27:09Andy Greenwald:A novel, yeah. And I believe Luca Guadagino was attached. I do know that Easton Ellis was being sort of prioritized as the creative fulcrum of the show and that he had written the first couple of scripts, but then that relationship seemed to have fallen apart according to Hollywood Reporter and other places you can read. And the last 40 years of Brett Ellis is a writer I really like, but he has had a bumpy relationship with adaptation and with Hollywood. And this is a, how would you describe the novel? You like actually... Yeah, it is a really interesting exercise in kind of meta-autofiction in which it is at once a memoir of the main character, Brett Ellis, who is also the main character of Lunar Park and is basically the main character of most of his books, sometimes under different names.

27:55Andy Greenwald:Living in Los Angeles, going to high school in 1981, In the Valley, right? Yeah, and going to, yes, and being in a very rich, fast-moving world, going to Buckley School with his friends, glamorous friends and children of Hollywood, and writing Less Than Zero by night, and in a love triangle and sort of exploring his own nascent sexuality and talking about going to school on the East Coast, which he would then do, and that would become Rules of Attraction. But in the Shards, all of this is set to the backdrop of a particularly vicious serial killer in an era in which serial killers were quite a thing.

28:33So the Shards, as a TV show, gets picked up, the rights, or I don't know how it gets transferred, but Ryan Murphy to the rescue comes in, picks up this project that had fallen apart at HBO, brings it over to FX, where he has a longstanding deal and where he's returned to Disney from Netflix, correct? and shoots the first two Shards episodes as Ellis had written them, essentially, right?

29:00Andy Greenwald:More or less? From what we understand of this, yes. I mean, the first two scripts of the series are credited to Brad Easton Ellis and Ryan Murphy. Okay. And mostly track with the novel. And Murphy directs? Murphy directs the first two, yeah. And then apparently after the second episode, it becomes a completely different show. Yes. Now, we are talking about this at a time when I believe the third episode and fourth episode maybe just went up. I'm not caught up through them. I'm just basing this off of reviews that were like, starts good, then it goes crazy. I mean, and to be honest, and I guess we probably should do a weird loop-de-loop where we come back to previewing lanterns or why it isn't part of this.

29:41Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I'll get there. We're just two guys talking. Come on. I find this fascinating. And it may look like I don't have my hands on the steering wheel. but I do I do it's just like I'm right here I thought this was a Waymo and you were just sitting in the front seat like we all know Kaya has the real controls me describing to a Waymo what happens in the second half of the first episode of Lioness honestly Waymo would probably see a lot of himself in that episode well don't don't see now you keep teasing me with tangents I'm trying to stay focused today I find the shards thing totally fascinating for two reasons One purely personal reason, like I said last week, I like Freddie Sinell's books.

30:24Andy Greenwald:I like this era of Los Angeles storytelling. And it is absolutely a beautiful looking production. And I think Ryan Murphy, we've litigated my feelings about him as a creator and artist, but he is an absolutely talented director. And when he locks into something, when it vibes with his own aesthetic, maybe this is true of any director, but I feel very strongly about saying this about him, it can elevate. And I think his, you know, his terroir, if you will, is kind of trashy Los Angeles in all of its forms, high to low. And so this is perfect for him. And he has a cast of beautiful people and needle drops are great.

31:08Andy Greenwald:And there's some really cool framing shots and there's, you know, angular minimalist food on big white plates and everybody's drinking and doing cocaine. And so this seems like fun. The reason I'm interested in is exactly what you're saying, because you, okay, so what are you, the question that needs to be asked at some point, but rarely gets asked when there are either network or company mandates or the whims and desires of a superpowered producer or creator, in this case, Ryan Murphy is, but why are we making this? And I want to be clear. I'm not doing a thing that I think people. Like who needed this?

31:43Andy Greenwald:I'm not saying that, although I think there's a reason to say that in some cases. But I'm not saying that here. I'm saying specifically at the heart of this, why are we making this? And particularly with period pieces, I think that question is worth asking because you can do it a multitude of ways, but I would reduce it to broadly two. One is we are point of view adrift with the characters, not in period, but in their presence. And we are attuned to the universality of their humanity, no matter what the era is and whether they have cell phones or not. And so you're living inside of the moment and that's a beautiful thing.

32:20Andy Greenwald:And so, you know, you could say, you could take Mad Men or something as an example of that. Obviously it has something to say about who we are now. It's being made now, but the entire show isn't about wink, wink. we actually had to call people on the landline. You know what I mean? The other way to do it would be to take a period of time that is deeply understood culturally, emotionally, politically as one thing and comment on it and hold it up as a mirror or as a cracked window or whatever you want to do. The issue with the shards is through the first two episodes is that it is a it is very, very, very excited to transpose the book to the screen.

32:56Sure. Because Brady Snellis wrote the first two episodes.

32:58Andy Greenwald:Freddie Snells wrote the first two episodes, and you can tell that Ryan Murphy, who has a reputation for being, you know, for having very strong points of view, is clearly a big fan, which is actually sort of sweet. So he's bringing Ellis' 80s to life better than maybe anyone else ever has. But without, I would say, the being a teenager in college's hard universality of rules of attraction, and certainly without the acerbic, looking backwards wit of Mary Herron's American Psycho. So it is totally flat with voiceover in which the main character, Brett, says things like, back then we didn't have social media, we had serial killers.

33:37Andy Greenwald:So it feels like an incredible pantomime show. You have to choose. You have to choose. I think we're doing okay. Do you know what I mean? And so I found that kind of frustrating even though the second episode I think is even stronger than the first because, and by the way, I have to call you to account for this too. This is not just a one-way thing. As a decades-long Wes Bentley completist, he's doing good work here. He's doing very good work here. In the course of one modernist, minimalist lunch with Brett, Wes smokes, I believe, 13 cigarettes and has five different forms of alcoholic beverages.

34:19Andy Greenwald:And I don't know if it's intentional or just sloppy editing, but I believe he has white wine, red wine, a martini, a glass of brown liquor and I want to say a cocktail another a fruited cocktail of some kind I would go martini white red brown liquor if I wanted to put myself in a body bag anyway you could still get after it look at you I mean that's an astonishing run yeah but so and this is all over course of lunch where there's just like three cubes of salmon and he's like this is the only restaurant in LA that serves tartare bread you'll love it so have I sold you on the show yet? I mean it sounds This is entertaining.

34:56Andy Greenwald:But all of this is to say, it is just this slavishly devoted thing that is kind of nothing all at once. And so I'm really interested, though, to hear this reporting that after two, it goes fucking full Gaga Murphy-verse and apparently is built to run multiple seasons, which is in no way what this project would seem to be. But I don't even want to say - But he's really smart. Murphy's going to make this into the cocaine 80s FX. FX's euphoria. Yeah. Like, if it gets there. Teen universe, right? If it gets there. Just like American crime story and American horror story. Yeah. If it gets there, that's actually not a bad play, but it's kind of, in a weird way, now we're all over the place, but it, having this conversation makes me think a little bit of what we were saying last week about how FX gave adults a duo, a mulligan, a do-over on the pilot.

35:47Andy Greenwald:Like, in a way, you almost wish Ryan Murphy was making his own American Breddy Cinellis story show. Sure. Where he could just make it up as he went along. Sure. But, I don't know. Well, Brett Easton Ellis is no longer on the project. He's very vocally, like, I break up with TV now. I think he's very not vocal. He said that and then he hasn't said a single thing else. The reason why I brought the Shards up, the reason why I brought that development story up is the same reason why we're talking about these superhero shows because they often are serving a lot of different purposes and they have a lot of different masters.

36:19There is the larger thing that the auteur-in-chief at one of these labels wants to have Feige, James Gunn. There's a super story that they want to tell, whether it's phased, whether it's thematic. They have an idea of what they want to do. Then there are players from networks, from production companies, characters who have become indelible. Those stars start to have a little bit more say on what Hulk would or wouldn't do or whatever. The fascinating thing about this Lanterns show is that Greg Berlanti, who had basically been off on his own with 20 shows on the air.

36:58Andy Greenwald:The hardest working man at Warner Brothers. At the CW, right? Well, he worked for Warner Brothers. All of his shows were on, many of his shows were on the CW. And was running essentially the Arrowverse, which was like his version of the DC TV universe and had, I think, six or seven shows, eight shows on the air at any given moment. I mean, he'd do these massive crossover. Yeah, he did Crisis of Infinite Earths on CW shows. Yes. and had been working on Green Lantern Show for a while. And in this article that I believe it's Leslie Goldberg on Ankler wrote, which is just talking about the production or the development process of this story, he talks about the clashes that he was having with Warner Brothers Television where it came to, you know, they were looking for something more grounded.

37:44They wanted a more grounded treatment of this. Like, I think they were looking to make something, sounds like closer to Watchmen, or something closer to a true detective. And he was just like, that's not what I'm interested in when it comes to this story.

37:57Andy Greenwald:Now, please excuse me. There's a Scooby-Doo live action reboot. Well, and then they found, they got Damon Lindelof, who did Watchmen, and they got, you know, Chris Mundy, who made Ozark. And they've made this new Lantern show, which I can't wait to watch. Yeah. But is a fascinating, long, kind of winding way to get to our screens on Sunday night. But I think the thing that you can hopefully point to for the shows that succeed is an early, early answer to the question, not who are you making this for? Why are we making this? What is someone, generally the showrunner or creator or lead writer or whatever you want to call it, what is that person passionate about?

38:41Andy Greenwald:And can we then get other people on board and all row in the same direction to make the best version of it? You can't do it solely because you want to tick the box of having that character represented or you want to try to push into television or have complimentary whatever. The reporting that I've read suggests that the first person to sort of raise his hand and say, this is what I want to do with this. It was Tom King, who is in many ways the least known of that troika, but is a brilliant comic book writer and also a former CIA analyst. And I feel like that would make him a really good guest for us at some point in the future if it won't all be redacted.

39:16Andy Greenwald:But he, I think I'm as interested in his point of view on the show as I am in the gentle corporate nudgings that put three very strong-minded creators together and by all accounts create a very, very happy, additive, expansive creative process. Now, I think we and audiences will be able to tell that. I haven't watched the pilot yet, but I'm very excited to. But ultimately, it comes down to the fact that even though at some point during this process, James Gunn and Peter Safran took over, at some point in the process, they checked in on this. And whatever was said back to them or whatever scripts they read passed muster with Gunn's stated intention to have a diverse slate of different types of stories.

40:03Andy Greenwald:I say reported intention because he has said that publicly, but also kind of until this moment, we haven't really seen the proof of it because we've just seen Superman and the very gun-pilled Supergirl. Yes, and since he has taken over, there's obviously been the Paramount Warner Brothers merger, which is now in sort of limbo. Yeah. But it's incredibly difficult to pull something that's like a multi-year storytelling project off when you've also got the winds of change blowing in the industry itself. It's very, very rickety. Whether it's mergers and acquisitions or whether it's technological developments.

40:38Andy Greenwald:But so, you know, for the same reasons that I thought it was interesting to watch the Reynaldo Marcus Green-directed Punisher one-shot and then see Bernthal do a different version of the same character in Spider-Man, seeing Nathan Fillion do Guy Gardner in this series, which I would imagine, this is not reported, no one has said this to me, But I imagine that when Tom King was like, yeah, I'll do this as a grounded version, at no point was he like, and Guy Gardner will also show up, played by known comedic, charismatic presence, Nathan Fillion. That's James Gunn's dude. Yeah, so here we are. But look, if the end game of all of this, despite some things that I'm pissed off about getting canceled or a wish we had, if the end result of this, after many, many, many years and many, many wasted millions, is a more streamlined process in which only the things that really have that spark or fire make it to air, I think it's a win.

41:38Andy Greenwald:Sure. Because best case scenario here, you get, now, you and I didn't love Penguin, but I think we were in the minority, and I think the majority of HBO Max subscribers felt that the Penguin, Colin Farrell, was a worthwhile inheritor of the Sunday, like, this is HBO, we understand why this is HBO. So there's a reason for this. And I think similarly, Lanterns looks to be in that category as well, which is great. But crazily enough, no second season of The Penguin yet. But again, I think that's another good, for me, that's a good outcome. And I'm not saying because I didn't like the show. And I'm certainly not saying it because I don't want the talented people who worked on it to work.

42:21Andy Greenwald:I'm saying that if they successfully told a story about this character that worked, I think it's like with the Mare of Easttown thing where like we we would fucking love more seasons of that show but my sense is the people involved at the time were like but why would we mess with something that worked you know it worked we did it we told a story and we don't say enough of that separate and apart from the fact that I mean I don't know if Colin Farrell wants to put that makeup on again I don't know either yeah but but look and by the way just you know inside or behind not even inside baseball like up where Brad Pitt sat in the Moneyball movies when he wouldn't actually watch the game.

42:59Andy Greenwald:I say this as someone... He sat in the gym, actually. Well, he didn't sit. He was working. He was lifting. Yeah. That's what I was getting at. Oh, okay. But that's down. Like, you were, like, up in the seats where he's sitting like he's in the suites. That's not what he was doing. No. Just like you. Personal best, yeah. I mean, I say this as someone who is actively and is and has been working on a Warner Brothers HBO show that has IP, and I will say that that's not my project and not my show, but this is a valid and living conversation of what is the best reason to be doing this. I think what I'm most fascinated by, by all of this, and we can get on to Furious now, but what fascinates me most, and maybe it's a good segue because I think one of the things I like about Furious so much is it's just a very, very well thought out TV show.

43:49Andy Greenwald:It's such a good TV show. Is we made a great grand swing of this kind of hybrid theatrical televisual storytelling model, both in terms of limited series, anthology series, bringing big screen genre to the small screen, even though many people don't make that distinction anymore. But whether it's Rings of Power or take your pick of any of the super expensive sci-fi shows that have come and gone over the last couple of years or these very, very highly valuable properties like Star Wars, Marvel, and DC. And sometimes in the back of my head, I'm like, maybe Greg Berlanti had it right. Because he just made a TV show.

44:34Yeah, because he just knew how to, like, he knew that there was a one-to-one relationship between flipping through an issue of a comic book and getting through a 42-minute television show that had some commercials. And that there was a transactional nature and a fun, like, cool, my story's on kind of relationship people could have. and it didn't have this like, fuck, I have to watch the post-credit sequence of Ironheart to understand what's happening on this movie coming out in two years maybe. You know, like...

45:05Andy Greenwald:Because of Mephisto. That's right. That's right. I was trying to tell everybody, but, you know, everybody's like, De Boyle cried wolf and then he showed up. Yeah. Then he fucking showed up and he was the devil. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back and we'll do Furious. This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. It may have been years ago, but I still remember the feeling of unpacking my kids' lunch boxes after school and to find nothing left. As a parent, that's a total win. Boar's Head, maple honey ham, American cheese, maple honey turkey, all-time greats in the school lunch game. It's real quality protein that tastes great.

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46:14Pick from delicious classics like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, Kung Pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak. Perfect for when you're watching the team you love or eating with the person you love. Have you eaten yet? Click or tap the banner to order or visit a Panda Express near you. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios, The Dog Stars. Only in theaters and IMAX August 28th. Visionary filmmaker Ridley Scott returns with a gripping post-apocalyptic thriller when a mysterious radio transmission shatters a lone pilot's isolated existence. He embarks on a dangerous journey in search of hope starring Jacob Lordy, Josh Berlin, Margaret Qualley, Allison Janney, and Guy Pearce.

46:57The dog stars only in theaters and IMAX August 28th. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in earn unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases with it big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. Be a two percenter. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply. So we're going to be talking about Furious through episode five.

47:34Episode six will be airing on Sunday. We haven't spoken about it. I think you would watch two when we first talked.

47:40Andy Greenwald:I'd watched all the ones that were up. Okay, so you watched the first three. I'd watched the first three. and um there's a lot of different places we can go with this but the one thing i would ask is you know as i've been watching this series i've been thinking about other crime shows that i've loved over the last several years and i was reminded of uh the night of um which is another series that i think is interested in the consequences of crime and the reasons behind a crime and also the total cost across a community of people. And also had to, at some point in its run, like solve it. You know, it has to, you know, you can't just have, here's six episodes of a mystery that just befuddled people, you know?

48:32Now, Furious is much different. We, it's not a whodunit. We know who's doing it. it's a matter of whether or not like what this person is doing is she going to get caught doing it essentially.

48:45Andy Greenwald:There's also a mystery within her own, she's also trying to solve a mystery the criminal Yes, yes, especially since her memory is spotty and because, you know so I wanted to ask you whether or not you detected in the same way that I detected with The Night Of, with True Detective with various other great crime shows from this this era the turn the turn towards now we actually rather than world building and like alluding to things and really doing character moments that we're we're turning towards a conspiracy that's being unraveled or what have you and do you necessarily think that's a flaw or not?

49:24Andy Greenwald:I think it's a great question I think my answer is no and I think my answer is no because in the spirit of all really good really exciting and compelling genre television or genre at its best. What we're seeing is the work of a creator who is using a familiar rhythm to create an original melody and play it over the top of it. The thing about the show that I find dazzling is that it has a, like just being on Hulu, just the way that it presented itself like you can the log line it's going to attract eyeballs i think because um true crime sex crimes like these things are the bread and butter you were saying of netflix like these are these are this is a very tried and true uh investigative stuff like this is very tried and true television to get an audience knowing that you have that buy-in already what liz Merriweather has done with the show, I find so thrilling because every single scene, a choice is made in it, whether it's like dialogue, whether it's casting, whether it's stakes that surprises me.

50:37Andy Greenwald:Every scene is alive where I think that generally when things make that turn or we notice the turn being made, what we're feeling is the feeling of, well, this driverless car at least knows the route. Do you know what I mean? This car has a fucking driver and the driver has a personality and the driver continues to do things that go against our expectations such as i mean you could you could throw up you could name half a dozen throw them on the table and we could talk about them the fact that for example the alden character and the fact that katherine is a fairly attentive and caring professional nurse for this guy with this particular set of circumstances in relationship to her i think that's introduced in episode three yeah like that that's a no-no from executives and from development Campbell Scott popping up in episode 4 the great and it's not just the character of the Campbell Scott now that we're talking about through episode 5 we could talk about that so in episode 4 uh Hope Davis' character who we'd seen before arrives with a lawyer who I don't believe we'd seen before and it's played by a you know Gen X hero Campbell Scott so instantly I'm more interested you know the casting whether it's him or the actor, I'll call it up in a second, who plays Ed George.

51:51Andy Greenwald:I'm like, I think that's his name, the ASAC at the FBI. The person who had been working with Nora earlier in the decade on the case. And the number one example is Nora herself, Quincy Bernstein's performance. Like, these are all really interesting performers that make you pay attention and are doing things that we're not expecting in every moment. But yeah, you bring him in and you see that she's doing something, that Catherine's doing something, but you don't realize she's hunting him and that he's going to be the focus of it. like there are these little bits of subterfuge that feel thrilling within the larger framework of the story I would say the same thing for almost everything Alice does in relation to her abuser is played by Jake Lacey Marshall it's going to some really really bold and very I would say risky from a storytelling perspective places with it and going there unapologetically with no breaks yeah I think it's knowing especially the the sequence in which she essentially sets him up yeah right is very knowingly depicted in the same fashion that Catherine's murders are depicted, where she is clocking this person, not monitoring their behavior, figuring out in advance what different things could happen and is setting them up.

53:05Andy Greenwald:I mean, there are many ways in which, and I think we are not the ideal interlocutors of the idea that this is a very, very, both feminist and very female-created television show, but one of the things that the show is absolutely committed to that I love is making us as viewers, and as male viewers, understand that when Scoot McNary's character, Danny Kelly, or what's his name? Rob Yang's character, Choi, sort of the hapless FBI agent. When they walk into rooms, they have very, very little to think about other than their job and maybe what they're getting for lunch. And when the women walk into rooms, instantly they have to think about six dozen things.

53:42Andy Greenwald:Sure. everything from physical proximity to past history to how they're being perceived and presented like everything with Catherine or with Alice up until that Marshall moment there's all this speculation why does she have these bruises because she's gotten willingly assaulted by a lover that she met on internet application internet application finger on the pulse there can I join the CIA Tom King I've got a number of applications on my phone in addition to my CIA application yeah I I just think that that is such a subtle thing and again like that is folded into Emmy Rossum's performance as well which I think has had surprising layers and reveals to it and I think that you know we'll see where else it has to go but there's I think a potential criticism of the first episode would be you could, and maybe I said this last week, I apologize, but like you almost could feel how much she prepared for this part of an FBI agent.

54:48Andy Greenwald:Like I felt like she was showing us her work. By the time the second episode started, I realized that what we were seeing was Alice's public presentation of having done the work to be a different person. And that there are actually layers to the performance and subtleties that I, you know, that I am only beginning to pick up on and appreciate. The other flip side of it is, and I wonder if you have analogies to this as well from other crime shows, just top of mind. But Catherine, played by Lola Petticrew, it is no small thing, I think, that a villain, the murderer, who does awful, terrible shit, also is granted a full humanity.

55:28Andy Greenwald:And it's not a full humanity in the sense, in the cheaper sense that shows often do, where maybe in between murders, like they glance at a folded up picture of a family they once had. She does carry a folded up picture. It is not of that. And the tenderness with which she's able to access with Alden is significant. The moments with Hal, the Campbell Scott character, where he is desperate for his life, but also briefly you can see him reclaim his masculinity in that scene where he's like, oh, she's just a broken little girl who wants to be complimented. It is a casting stroke of genius. Yeah. I mean, obviously you and I are probably in this weird vocal minority of Campbell Scott super fans or whatever.

56:17Andy Greenwald:If the Rewatchables had started 10 years earlier, you would have had a Campbell Scott take equal to the Luke Wilson take. Right? Yeah, I can't even think of what it should be because he is an actor who... He does things I don't think you can necessarily teach or scout. like the reason that scene works is because of the tenor of his voice and he's had that tenor of his voice going back to like singles and dying young but it's that warmth and that sensitivity that even though this guy is Jay Easton's attorney who was brought in to clean up a murder scene.

56:55he does sound paternally genuinely interested in Catherine now he's also a lawyer so I imagine there is as we see with his fate there's a degree to which it's manipulation and there's a degree to which and I think that's kind of what's really cool about this show is that there can be these very sincere emotional moments between Alden and Catherine between Catherine and Rob Delaney's character's daughter, between even Alice and Marshall, you know, there is a moment, but that moment is not the only thing that's happening in that scene. Like what's also happening is this person is being pushed to get something that the other character wants from them.

57:42Andy Greenwald:This is the thing that I think is really impressive. And again, kind of hard to articulate. Tried last week. The show is so deeply about trauma and how we live post-trauma. but it contains the imagination and the creative space to show a world in which trauma exists, to show a world in which life exists before, during, and after traumatic incidents, so that it doesn't feel any necessity to hold our hand about how to feel about Marshall. It allows the space for Alice to show us through word and emotion and deed and performance what this person meant to her in her life, and then what happened, which only serves the drama in the sense that it compounds how hideously violating and violent and awful what happened was.

58:27Andy Greenwald:Because we understand the circumstances as a larger story. It's also very confrontational with the audience, which I really appreciate. Yeah, it definitely is. Because the audience for these kinds of shows, I include myself in that audience, are, I don't know, we're kind of animals. Like, you know, like, why am I watching this stuff as much as I do? Am I talking about that with Lioness? Like, it's like, it's probably not good for the soul to be so interested in the darkest parts of humanity. I actually have that written in my notes, but I was going to say it to you as a like a cautionary tale.

59:03Andy Greenwald:I was going to actually be like, intervention. But, you know, this fascinating aspect of Meriwether brings you into scenes and you are like, I kind of know where this is going. And I feel weird about watching it. You know, I feel weird watching her, watching Catherine, like, I know what's going to happen to Hal. I know what's going to happen to Marshall. I know, you know, what's going to happen to these people. And like the worldview of this show is such that I think it's like you have to basically behave in these certain ways to survive. Right. But I find it very confrontational in a very refreshing way while never not entertaining and never not provocative.

59:45I'm trying to think of how it would be handled. I mean, God, you know, I don't know how a man would have made this show, but like, yeah, but like, I'm trying to think of like how different storytellers would have handled just the central like mystery, which there isn't, but like the procedural element of it and whether or not certain things like Nora's involvement in the 2012 murder.

1:00:08Andy Greenwald:I mean, that's always, I mean, that isn't, to your point about like, that's an old piece of story. That's like an old pipe that fit into this, the idea that she is somehow complicit and this is her past and her own failings and all of that. And it's going to be a trauma for her. What's interesting is the character of Nora and Quincy Tyler Bernstein casting. I mean, we should, for the purposes of like ongoing bits, which I know we need more of, we need like the, we could call them the Akram All-Stars after the guy in Department Q. where it's just like a single casting choice on a secondary character not only elevates the show but makes us fall completely in love with the performer and want more.

1:00:46Andy Greenwald:And she is so in that zone. You're totally right. There are multiple scenes where I would love to know if I'm right about this. I feel like you can see Emmy Rossum being like, holy shit, while she's acting with her. Yes, and like a fan of it, like into it. Yeah, yeah. I think I want to be careful about this statement because I think we all remember the film This Is 40. But generally, I do want to encourage more comedians and comic writers to branch out of their genre ghetto because this is, you know, this is Seize Weapons Once. But like, I am definitely going to like, well, and also the Jordan Peele movies.

1:01:27Andy Greenwald:Like, I do think that there is something to this thing that we've talked about repeatedly ad nauseum that like, comedy writers pivoting to horror like this is Liz Merriweather's like magnum opus in a different completely different field than New Girl you know it's it's wild to me and it's clearly done with love and affection for the genre um which hopefully you know I hope we get to talk to her about that specifically but this show I mean I understand people checking it out and maybe your mileage may vary about the subject matter or the way that it's presented or you know some of the maybe you get tripped up on the tropes that we're saying are actually not what you're supposed to.

1:02:05Andy Greenwald:That's not the view. That's just the drive. But like the reason I'm so fired up about it and I cannot wait to watch the next episode is because of the spirit of it is so creatively surprising. Scene to scene, moment to moment. The actor I was going to say, Danny McCarthy plays ASAC Ed George. And just like, again, there are, I'm sure the casting director we should probably get the name of and shout out. I'm sure there were 20 incredibly capable actors who could have played that part and been like, this is a small part, but I get it. He's bringing something that makes him, every time he's on the screen.

1:02:41It's very funny to imagine that guy leading a health and wellness.

1:02:43Andy Greenwald:Yes. Well, right. It's given, again, it's the writing is giving him, the character is written to have some surprise built in, but just the way that he smiles, the way that he shut her down in the elevator, the way that she's long gaming to upend him is like, it's delightful to watch. There's a lot of cat and mouse games inside of the larger cat and mouse game. Anything else you wanted to hit about this? I love it. I don't know. I feel like I'm just a broken record at this point. Would you say after this many episodes, it's in your top five, top three? Yeah. You're a recency baby. That is 100 % true.

1:03:20Andy Greenwald:Have you seen Weapons? It's quite good. Might even get some Oscar buzz. We've been podcasting for about an hour and five minutes. Okay. We covered the world of television and movies and this industry and technology in totality. And we've talked in depth about Furious. I hope people feel like we talked in depth about it. Well, we were kind of thrown by timing, but now we will pick it up. Whether, I don't know if it's, is it a Monday or a Thursday show for us? It'll be a Monday show. So we'll talk about Lanterns and we'll talk about episode six of Furious on Monday. Great. But for now, I'd like the lights to come down just a little bit.

1:04:02Andy Greenwald:oh brother okay let's get inside the cage did you plan this lighting? it's a lion but it's a lady in the cage with me uh huh I can only be who I am this is good we should begin with like this is like a like a AA meeting begin with a mea culpa my name's Chris yeah and I'm an alcoholic for Zoe Saldana lifting weights and listening to the news and then saying pop smoke and going to Ukraine and arresting or kidnapping a Russian agent who had like a little tracker in his armpit that they cut out. Yeah. How far did you get into this first episode? There's two up, but we're just going to talk broadly about the third season of Lioness here.

1:04:51Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I, first of all, did you get to the dogs? I love you and I respect your choices. And I think one of the keys to a healthy relationship, professional, personal, otherwise, is to give each other space, you know, to pursue your own passions. Yeah. You know, without free of judgment. Unfortunately, this is a critical podcast. So that last part, I don't know if I can make good on. I just want to, did you get to the dogs? I didn't get to the dogs. I think I made it to a bunch of people. I made it to a bunch of people shooting heavy caliber munitions at and under drones in Ukraine. And then I was like, honestly, I'm 49 years old.

1:05:34Andy Greenwald:How much time do I have left? I'm 48. So maybe that's probably like a younger kind of guy. That's also, that's the secret sauce of all podcasts. You know what I mean? Peanut butter and jelly, like two different generational perspectives. Let's talk in November and we'll see. There's a scene early on in this when Nicole Kidman, who's on this television show... With Martin Donovan, who starred in multiple Hal Hartley movies and the film Tenet. As her husband. Yeah. The trader. Trades. Yeah. They are having a light breakfast. Alfresco. Alfresco. Lovely. You know, D.C. The district is wonderful that time of year.

1:06:16Andy Greenwald:I'm sure they're safely in Virginia. I don't think the novels of George Pelicanos are occurring just beyond their six acres. Trouble Funk is playing right there like if only the U Street Corridor popping off Joe young Joe House no contemporary Joe House just down the street they are having breakfast and Nicole is just staring at a hard copy of the the Grey Lady the New York Times and you know what I'm just going to make sure I'm just going to do it it says the end of democracy is a giant headline in the New York Times and the picture is like some clouds because like some smoke, like someone has thrown some sort of smoke bomb, be it a Antifa warrior or 90s era Batman.

1:07:06Andy Greenwald:Unclear. Either way, really, what's the difference, dog? That's why the DCU is off TV. The ideas are too crazy. It says the end of democracy. Martin Donovan then gives a stirring monologue, which now I want you to fact check me because as mentioned, I did have a cocktail yesterday. So maybe I... And did you watch this after the cocktail? I think they were connected. Okay. In retrospect, I would have reversed it and had the drink after. But I believe he begins a monologue about how the greatest investor in America's universities are the Chinese. Foreign nations. Foreign nations. So is it any wonder that the students of these universities now espouse communist-leaning philosophies?

1:07:52I don't know that he used the C word.

1:07:54Andy Greenwald:He says communism. Oh, he does? Okay. He 100 % does. Okay. And he's like... Well, Taylor Sheridan headed the curve again. I know. And then he's like, so of course these reporters, you know, think that they're onto something when in fact, clearly they just all like, he doesn't say this part, but essentially they are marching to their own little red book. There's institutions funded by foreign governments that have indoctrinated them to hate the country that they live in. Yes, yes. And then he's like... That's just one POV. No, but this is my favorite part. is like his heart, his version of the David Ellison op-ed where he's just like, I just call balls and strikes and like to make movies.

1:08:28Andy Greenwald:He's like, so anyone who went to college in America or works in journalism is a fucking dirty red. He doesn't say that though. No, let me finish. He's like, that said, the real existential enemy is AI. And then the scene ends. Yeah. No, the scene ends. And it's like, you can't guess which is it, which is bad. The scene ends. Yeah, I know because she gets black bagged in her suburban. Yeah. And then six months earlier, we go back. And again, it does the thing. One of the other things I respect about Taylor Sheridan is A, obviously his politics keep you guessing. They do though. They do. Two, two, he is, you know, we're like, well, he's immune to notes.

1:09:08Andy Greenwald:He's also immune to industry trends because no one made it to like the, what is it, the triple sixes ranch or whatever. And was like, sir, sir, tears in their eyes. Audiences are turning against the six months earlier conceit. Right. So he does that. And then we're off to the races. Look, I just think we all have to express ourselves in different ways. And so maybe this is our podcast version of On the Italian Job Rewatchables when Van eloquently spoke about a porn adaptation of The Italian Job. That he had imagined. That he had imagined down to like, he cast it. Yes. He had whole, he had visions.

1:09:48Neapolitan crime families warring with sex acts Yes

1:09:51Andy Greenwald:Him talking about that in the way that that satisfies his basest urges is kind of and the face you made is kind of the face I'm making when you watch this show because I'm willing to I'm willing to look the lights have changed We're not going to talk about I think to be completely honest Yes If I want to talk about Lioness You have some 4chan groups I think that Van will probably be joining me because Van has called me seven times in the last two weeks and told me that I'm actually a coward because I hadn't caught up yet because I was on vacation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, look, man, like when we get enough, when we get a foothold on the front in Ukraine, like we can talk about it.

1:10:34Like I want to see what this is about. Let me tell you something because I can't believe you quit watching because I think you missed something.

1:10:40Andy Greenwald:Small point. If there's any way we could do a hard cut and just start the pod, like just cut away to you and then Van is sitting here wearing a tasteful shacket with three drinks, the hardest of which is a day-old green tea, and you just continue the conversation, that's gold. I just want to tell you about one thing that happens in this episode. Please. So obviously, like, here's the recap of the first episode. Joe lifts weights, takes a shower. Her husband tries to join her in the shower. But guess what? It's cold. It's cold. It's cold. And he's like, ah, it's so cold. And she's like, it's good for inflammation.

1:11:13Yeah. And he's like, so is Advil. And she's like, I want my body to do it, not a pill.

1:11:20Open your third eye, brother. You don't know.

1:11:22Andy Greenwald:That's how I feel about anxiety, but please continue. And then it turns out that a Russian agent is being offered up to them. It turns out, somehow, a Russian agent has returned. Go on. Did you see the scene where the lioness crew goes to Georgetown? Yes. And they all exercise? Yeah, they're all pretending to be like... And then the best part is they're like, guess we're going to Ukraine. and they're like, ah, shit. I guess I picked the wrong day. When they get to Ukraine, this is probably where you turned it off because they're running to the house and there's all these drones above them. There were a lot of drones, yeah.

1:11:55And they get to a cabin and they go down to a bunch of sub-levels and then they get there and there's a bunch of CIA people, a bunch of army people, US-based. And it's like, well, who's going to lead this expedition? Because we're not going to use Joe's team. They're not trained in trench warfare, drone warfare. Who's going to lead us? It's Taylor Sheridan.

1:12:16Andy Greenwald:I had heard this. It's Cody. I actually had heard this and I think that may be a reason why I looked away. And he becomes then the central character of the second half of the first episode of the third season of Lioness. Great. And he leads a team of Delta guys with German shepherds who eat fucking Russians. How do you? And North Koreans. It's fucking disgusting. So you train them specifically? So you have like racist dogs to begin with. They are German shepherds. That's true. A hundred percent that's true. It's not like they were like, how did you make this teddy bear? How did you take this fucking doodle, this golden doodle, and make him?

1:13:03One of the dogs doesn't make it though. Back. And the breeder is quite upset.

1:13:08Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I know. Because you know how much hate speech you have to filter into the kennel? I don't know what to say. Hey, I don't know what to say. Can I ask you another question? When I watch lots of shows, I'm like, how long have I been sitting in front of this TV? It has to have been two hours. And it's like eight minutes. And with Lioness, like time flies by. Like I am engaged. I'm leaning in, you know? I come to this place to laugh. You're leaning in one direction for sure. I think it's a little bit to the... This thing is I can separate the art and the artist. It's beautiful. I'm sorry. I guess that makes you the asshole.

1:13:42Andy Greenwald:First of all, I do, I would love to know the background of Taylor Sheridan being cast in that part, where like they did an exhaustive search. There was no background. He's like, I'm playing Cody. I know. I'm just saying that, can you imagine though? They're like, we've done an exhaustive search of the nation's jarheads. And like, we just can't find anyone with the moral conviction. No veterans could read four lines. And he's just like, fine, I'll come off the sidelines to do this. I genuinely, I was trying to come up with a way to talk to you about this that would preserve our friendship, but also that would not be just negativity.

1:14:13Andy Greenwald:No, no, I know. You can't scare me. But there's also like genuinely the headlines of our landman coverage is often like, what the fuck? But every so often there are moments of bizarre, either it's just like perceptiveness or local color or some sense of a world that we haven't seen before before he gets distracted. Oh, you spent a lot of time on the front lines of Ukraine. That's a world you've seen before? Seen it all before, brother. every morning I have breakfast outside and pour over the war coverage and the failing New York Times people point to fairly his like he can't keep you guessing like his world view and the things that he feels strongly about don't necessarily fit neatly into one tribe or the other and he loves pushing those buttons and I think the the college roommate being a big example of that in the last season of Landman I think the the problem I have with his shows and this is genuinely a problem with Landman is that he always, whether he believes this or not, he always defaults to a complete credulity in faith in the most either rich in the case of Landman or the most powerful in the case of Linus.

1:15:20Andy Greenwald:And like the full armament and awe and majesty and destructive power of the United States government if they were just finally, if the woke handcuffs came off. You know what I mean? And I find that really boring because the thing about Landman is like the dude, like the, the, the, the chief boss and like the scene where like he has, they have the barbecue and like, they all show up. Like he's showing people who do a really fucking gnarly job for a living. And most shows are not interested in that. Right. But the show can't help itself by being like, ultimately what I'm interested in is the rich guy is going to, it's going to work out for him and he's going to get richer and his wife's going to be able to go shopping on a private jet.

1:15:58Andy Greenwald:That bums me out. And so the thing with this show too, is like, I just wish it had a little more curiosity about the cracks in the world as opposed to being like, you fucking sheeple don't get it. We need this. I don't really know if I need it to do that. I don't, I mean, because I think I know I'm trying to put, like I think I find it more broadly entertaining to watch a highly violent Tom Clancy thing. Yeah, I understand I'm trying to put like a British barrister wig on peak Aristotle. I'm not going to make you watch this. This is not going to be a running bit on the show. I do think that for whatever it's worth.

1:16:32at the end of the episode when they get done with this incredibly violent like exercise in Ukraine they're like this is this is way beyond like our comprehension of what warfare is supposed to be like and at one point like one of the characters is like these guys it's like it's like World War One meets Star Wars here because it's all of like these drones and robot robotic armaments but it's also people like running in trenches and it's like so it's like whether or not it's a realistic depiction of that combat theater? I have no idea. I do.

1:17:04Andy Greenwald:I would say it gets to about 60%, right? Anyway, every once in a while, maybe I'll check in, but, you know, Van and I will get in the cage together next time. What are Van's other, like, where else is he going to take the show when he replaces me? I mean, Van's very busy. I can't overly leverage him, you know? Like, I need you around a little. Okay. Yeah. Coming off the bench for some I'm like high-minded like, well, Drops of God Season 3 is back. Let me tell you my porn parody of that. Well, Hal Jordan historically is like this. Does that mean? It's good. It's good. Canonically, it's inaccurate, but I'm willing to make excuses.

1:17:43You know about two things. The Ukrainian front, Green Lantern. That's why you're valuable to me. No, come on. You're my guy. We take this show together. Yeah. It's a Waymo with two wheels. Yeah.

1:17:55Andy Greenwald:So it's a Waymo bicycle? except I'm on the front like Titanic when I was in Portland the other week a couple rode by me on a tandem bike both wearing N95 masks and I was like did you have anything to say? no did you tell them about Woke One? no I was just sitting in my Honda rented because you like to be able to move at any time you never know when the then the Russians are gonna no no I get it I don't even know why I told that you're just watching those people on bikes being like I bet you think dogs aren't prejudiced must be nice you know who defends that freedom for you fucking lionesses you just walk around just shaking your head being like these people have no idea they have no idea what Zoe Saldana is done for them they're$30 sandwiches yeah they're fucking orange wines I just you know what it is I can move between spaces there you know no this is why you are ultimately electable you know what I mean like you could play in both worlds like you may lean that way but you didn't endorse Francesca Hahn that's why I froze my eggs just to sort of you know like you never know what my future is going to be beautiful eggs thanks to Kaya Kai and Sarah that's a great that's part of your pitch for the male reboot of Furious yeah I've got some notes I didn't say that I said God forbid a guy had made that God forbid sounds like he protests a little much oh no he prods over furious but for him he says no

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