Jason Mantzoukas and Mallory Rubin on ‘Shoresy’ Season 5. Plus, ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ S2 Casting News, and a ‘Game of Thrones’ Film.

5:37Mallory Rubin:The last cast member of Night of the Seven Kingdoms season two is Peter Mullen, who people may remember as being a fucking scumbag. scumbag on Ozark.

5:47Chris Ryan:And one of the great actors of our time. Great, great character. I think an absolute monster of an actor that is like just sneaking through the world, just giving unreal performance after unreal performance.

5:59Mallory Rubin:Did you ever see him on the streets of London when you were doing Taskmaster?

6:02Chris Ryan:When I was doing Taskmaster, I remember just walking the streets of London and being like, hey, Petey Moles. It's Trudy Dench.

6:09Mallory Rubin:Hey, DJ D, what's up? So excitement abounds. And how does it feel as a longtime Thrones chronicler to be right back in it where you're like, okay, the boulder's going downhill. We're going to get this next year.

6:26Jason Mantzoukas:I mean, it's the thrill of a lifetime. Not only to have a good show, but to have it in our lives consistently. Like, I'm higher on House of the Dragon than many are as we've discussed. The two people at this table, yeah. I think so. But having to wait, you know, multiple years between seasons is painful. So it's great to know that we're going to get A Night of the Seven Kingdoms every year and that there's a continuity of character, Dunk and Egg. We have this, like, wonderful investment after six episodes now in that relationship. And then we get to meet new people because we're in a new place.

6:57Jason Mantzoukas:And the ideas of the novellas, that they're like, where are these guys at this moment in time? And what is this story and this adventure who is going to move into the show and into their lives as a result? To get to do that every winter or spring or whatever the calendar ends up being is like an absolute delight.

7:13Chris Ryan:One of the things that I think is so difficult and I feel like both of you talk about on your shows is this collision of prestige TV, high-end, elevated television, these shows that are hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to produce and take a year to make and huge. Just like the ambition is off the charts. The shows are huge. And then we also talk about, or you talk about, and I've talked about as well, just boy isn't it fun to have TV. Sure. The pit. Things that feel like TV. Yes. And now I feel like A Night of the Seven Kingdoms or something like Slow Horses is threading the needle.

7:51Chris Ryan:Slow Horses is you are doing an incredible show that has scale and scope, fantastic performances, but it comes out every 10 months. A new season. Boom. And if they can, knowing the novellas, as I now do, as a well-read Westerosi. An audiobook subscriber. Oh, yes. With an Audible account. Don't worry about it. Or, you know what? A Spotify account. I was going to say, this is a Spotify podcast.

8:17Mallory Rubin:I like testing the limits a little bit. I bet they bleep.

8:21Chris Ryan:Yeah.

8:22Mallory Rubin:I bet the whole time it's just bleeped off.

8:24Chris Ryan:I say, or, or, or. Spotify doesn't want the libraries to get the subscribers. So I think. Burning library cards. Oh, yeah. I think Spotify put all the libraries out of business. Pretty much, right?

8:41Mallory Rubin:Were they really ever in business? Oh, yeah. For-profit libraries. It was just like late fees. That's a good idea, though, dude. Should we get into that? For-profit libraries?

8:51Jason Mantzoukas:We can call it a bookstore. Yeah, but you can't. Now that's interesting. You have to bring it back, though. What do you think?

8:56Mallory Rubin:You have to bring the book back. We charge you$13, but you still have to bring the book back. What are you paying for? It's a book rental. It's like Blockbuster for books.

9:03Jason Mantzoukas:It's Hollywood Video or Blockbuster. Are you paying for early access? You get to cut the line. Are you paying for a recommendation? CR's picks.

9:11Chris Ryan:I love curation. That's great.

9:13Mallory Rubin:Yeah. I would rather be the old school version because you know like the librarian, it would just be like you call and you'd be like, what's the weather tomorrow? And they'd have to answer, right? I never did that, I used to call the weather. What? Did you guys used to call the weather? Yeah, people would call the newspaper to get the weather. Oh, interesting. Yeah. We're really old. I'm older than you, so you probably don't remember that. Oh, and I'm older than both of you by a bunch.

9:35Jason Mantzoukas:But I am older in spirit, and I would say probably if you did some testing, also body. Oh, please.

9:40Mallory Rubin:My body is in active collapse. Jason, you mentioned the TV-ification of Game of Thrones. I thought this was really interesting that this week, among everything else that's happening in Hollywood with Paramount and Warner Brothers, and Andy and I are going to talk about this. Wait, what's going on with Paramount and Warner Brothers? They bought each other. Uh-oh. And me and Andy will probably get more into that on Monday. But it came out in, I believe, Variety first, but widely reported that Bo Williman has a script for a Game of Thrones movie that, I don't know, they're moving forward on, that the draft is in.

10:14Mallory Rubin:This has been reportedly, it centers on Aegon's Conquest.

10:20Jason Mantzoukas:So we've been hearing for some time that the Aegon's Conquest story that was in development could end up being a movie, right? Yes. I pitched this to Joe in real time yesterday on House of R on our mailbag episode I don't know if there's enough opportunity enough of a window here to change what this movie's about I think I got to conquest as a movie at some point in time would be great do you mean within the confines of this podcast

10:42Mallory Rubin:or like you could get Casey on the phone both Casey listens to the watch

10:45Jason Mantzoukas:Casey if you're listening

10:46Mallory Rubin:he only listens to Andy yeah

10:48Jason Mantzoukas:can we call Andy can we get him he doesn't watch Shorzy

10:51Mallory Rubin:he's a huge Shorzy

10:52Jason Mantzoukas:I think that this movie should be a Blackfire Rebellion movie a first Blackfire Rebellion a movie so that we stay in continuity in the timeline. And then it's also like clarifying why is this a movie? Why is this a show? Because we're in a Night of the Seven Kingdoms in this stretch of the canon as a television show. We're glimpsing, oh, we were at the Redgrass Field. We're hearing people say Blackfire Pretender. Give us in real time in our lives a movie about this key event at this stretch of the canon.

11:21Chris Ryan:So for casual things, though, my question would be, are they doing the math and saying a movie at this scale is four years away from being released? Probably. We will have done all the Dunkin' Egg stories.

11:36Jason Mantzoukas:Well, they're going to be doing Dunkin' Egg for 15 years, but they will be finished doing House of the Dragon by then. So that does alleviate a little bit of the, we have Game of Thrones here, we have House of the Dragon here, we have A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms here, we have Aegon's Conquest here. That's, I think, disorienting to ask people to track that many points of Targaryen history simultaneously. I do think Eggons Conquest would be a great movie and better probably as a movie than a show.

11:57Mallory Rubin:The reason why I just raised an eyebrow when I saw this story come out was obviously a lot of panic going on about what this merger means for jobs in Hollywood, etc. And like the content pipeline. But I think also there's like some sweat, like some well-earned sweat going on about like what happens to some of the franchises, some of the IP that belong to Warner Brothers and them being transferred over to Paramount. and this to me was like be cool it's still in the works and like maybe this will be like a big thing that you know Skydance Paramount throws itself behind I personally as somebody who's just a glass half full guy

12:35Jason Mantzoukas:always yeah

12:36Mallory Rubin:Taylor Sheridan, George R.R. Martin, Sheridan Universe Westeros, Sicario let's get

12:43Jason Mantzoukas:Jeffrey Donovan from Sicario

12:45Mallory Rubin:tack vests and big glasses this sounds I would love for these things to just start

12:51Chris Ryan:collapsing into each other. That was my favorite never made but intended to be made sequel which was which was 24 Jump Street Men in Black 4.

13:04Mallory Rubin:Yes, right.

13:05Chris Ryan:Which was that those two things would collide with each other.

13:07Mallory Rubin:And that was one of those scripts that got to like all the way up to like the main, the last desk it needed to clear and they were like, no. What are we doing?

13:14Chris Ryan:Yeah. But I love that conceptually. But it really is like, you know, these are worlds that I'm genuinely like, what is about to happen inside of Harry Potter? Inside of this? Yeah, DC. You're talking about in regards to this specific merger. Sure. But I think that is like, we're having that conversation in terms of what's going on with Star Wars. What does Star Wars look like right now? You know, Mandalorian and Grogu trailer question mark?

13:42Jason Mantzoukas:He refuses to engage. He has said and he has been pushed and has refused to budge. He's not going to see the movie.

13:48Chris Ryan:Sorry for having to worry. You're not going to see the movie. Which I think is. Now that's interesting.

13:51Mallory Rubin:Yeah, it's just principles.

13:52Jason Mantzoukas:Principles.

13:53Chris Ryan:Principles. And what are those principles? What do you stand for?

13:57Mallory Rubin:A principle is when you're like, I'm not going to go watch this volume. This is good. He's not telling us what his principles are. He's just telling us what a principle is conceptually. Well, here's what I thought about. I thought about tripling down and being like, no more Star Wars after Andor. It's over. It's done. By the way.

14:13Jason Mantzoukas:This is toxic. I don't like this at all.

14:16Chris Ryan:It's toxic, but I will agree in the sense that in a world in which, CR, you have continued— Well, no, actually, you've let up a little bit on one of your other principles, which was no animation.

14:27Mallory Rubin:Yes, I've softened.

14:29Chris Ryan:You have softened for animation some. And I will say, Star Wars animation is, without a doubt—

14:34Jason Mantzoukas:Wonderful, wonderful.

14:35Chris Ryan:The best, and or accepted, some of the best Star Wars of the last 25 years is in animation form, full stop. Yes. You know, and I'm I worry about the next round of stuff as much as everybody. I'm also lamenting the loss of the Damon Lindelof, Lakeith Stansfield starring Jedi story. That's like, where is that? Give me that, you know? And so like all of these worlds that we love, boy, am I nervous about what's about to happen to all of them.

15:04Mallory Rubin:There's also this funny thing that's happening. and I imagine you must feel this because you're kind of like trying to watch these stories develop over the course of years when you're doing House of R where like I feel like maybe some of these franchises that we identify so deeply with are not appealing to younger people and that they're like for me it's Super Mario Brothers and I know that that's like or like some of the stuff where you're like oh man this video game's really hitting for people like this like this adaptation of a video game whereas like we're still like no there's another way to do Star Wars man we can do one more thing

15:40Chris Ryan:why can't there be myriad ways why can't there be Star Wars content that is for younger people

15:46Jason Mantzoukas:this is why I said his I'm stopping Star Wars after Andor take is toxic for that exact reason the thing that allowed us to get the brilliance and unrivaled excellence of Andor in the first place of course is Tony Gilroy's genius a really clear vision etc but it was like we're gonna do something that is specifically utterly itself Yes. So then if everybody else is like, the only good Star Wars is Andor, or I want to try to make Andor, then everything is going to be ubiquitous and samey and diluted and bad.

16:14Chris Ryan:And I think the other thing is we can't just be doing fan service for the fans who are like, listen, nobody should be really listening to me. Star Wars shouldn't be for 53-year-olds. No, I think it should be for everybody. It should be for everybody, I'm saying. But it should be aimed at a younger audience. I don't know if I'm going to make it to 53,

16:32Jason Mantzoukas:but if I do, I intend to still be watching. I'm watching Star Wars.

16:35Chris Ryan:And I love it. And I watch all of it, every scrap of it. You know, like, and I'm listening to the audio books. I'm listening. I'm all of it. I'm all in on Star Wars. But I'm not saying all Star Wars needs to be Andor because Andor is unquestionably a mature show. Right. You know, there should be stuff that we should be like, oh, this is, you know, not for me because it's aimed at a young audience, which is perfect. Right. You know, we need to be bringing still people, bringing people in.

17:04Jason Mantzoukas:But we have a few colleagues and close friends who have young children who are falling in love with Star Wars in real time.

17:11Mallory Rubin:I think I'm thinking about it more in terms of like.

17:14Jason Mantzoukas:They just want Uncle Chris to take them to see Mando Grogu and he says, fuck off.

17:18Mallory Rubin:Yeah. What's the dream about what happened in the movie theaters last year in 2025? It's the success of one battle sinners and weapons and people saying like original movies are back. these kinds of stories resonate with people because it aren't rehashes of you know the same like three films over and over and over again we can break out of these like templates that we have and then on the flip side of that a lot of box office success was rooted in things like minecraft oh don't pretend no i for a second i was like did they make a mine Mindswing? Crest? I thought they maybe made a mind swing for a movie, but that would be pretty boring.

17:55Mallory Rubin:Good Lord.

17:55Chris Ryan:I don't believe this for a second. I'm sorry.

17:58Mallory Rubin:I'm just a leftist Andor fan. No, I'm just joking. I will watch more Star Wars. I just... No, no. I agree with you because... Specifically, Mandalorian Grogu, there's something wrong with this movie.

18:10Jason Mantzoukas:It connects to the opening, hey, let's talk about the new cast of A Night at the Seven Kingdom season two point, right? Because it's like the part of the reason that that show was such like a jolt. For Game of Thrones fans, it's such an animating experience of like, not just is this good? It is. Does the show understand what it's trying to be? Yes. Is the tone clear? Yes. Is the sensibility established? Yes. You felt in real time and it built week after week. People were excited not only to consume it, but to share it with each other. So I see this cast list today for three of the main roles in the second season and I am levitating.

18:44Jason Mantzoukas:Sure. I feel as alive as I have as a Thrones fan in years because it's like, these are excellent performers who are coming in to perform crucial roles for a moment in time, right? And it's going to be beautiful. It's six weeks, and I can't wait, and that's all we need because it knows what it is.

18:58Chris Ryan:And I think that this show, Night of the Seven Kingdoms, is interested in telling slice-of-life short-form stories, you know? And that is something that larger IP-driven stuff, whether it's the MCU, whether it's all the Star Wars, all that stuff, are predominantly interested in stories that are too interwoven with the rest of their stories. And it has become unwieldy. Unless you are—

19:25Mallory Rubin:This was the success of Wonder Man to me. Yes. It's just incredible. Wonder Man should just be like a model for Marvel going forward, and instead it's going to be an anomaly, I would imagine.

19:33Chris Ryan:Well, wouldn't it be great if they could figure out both? If they could figure it out so that it wasn't feast or famine, so that it wasn't one or the other, that they're servicing a larger—comics does this. Comics can do storytelling where you are following an issue-to-issue storyline in Daredevil that is about Hell's Kitchen and one law case that he's pursuing. But then, yes, he is part of a larger event that's happening that includes Doctor Strange and Spider-Man and team-ups and all the rest. How can you figure out how to tell grounded, street-level stories like Wonder Man that feels like a cohesive whole but that doesn't concern itself with multiverse or what's Loki up to or any other nonsense?

20:19Jason Mantzoukas:What if we put Trevor Slattery in everything?

20:21Chris Ryan:By the way, and just let them do Shakespeare monologues all the time? I loved it.

20:26Mallory Rubin:Um, you know, and I think also there's a little bit of, uh,

20:28Jason Mantzoukas:Did you get rid of your computer? Now I'm going to get rid of mine. I don't need it. I don't need it.

20:32Mallory Rubin:You're my two favorite people. And this is a show I can, I can talk about with my eyes closed.

20:36Chris Ryan:We are your two favorite people. I love this. Andy, you can eat shit, bro.

20:41Jason Mantzoukas:One of the two of you is one of my favorite people.

20:43Chris Ryan:Yeah.

20:44Mallory Rubin:Ooh, I love it. Now we just compete. You can guess. Uh, all right. I want to get to Shorzy in a second. I do want to say one more thing about Star Wars. Here's the thing. Okay. There is a issue with that franchise that I think is like a little bit of too big to succeed. So they are now operating to succeed because they're operating at a margin where they're like, it costs X amount to make one of these things. And so it needs to be Y amount of a success for it to be worth it. And so the reason why I almost feel like Charlie Brown with the football with some of this stuff is that when they first started talking about Kenobi, It was the guy who wrote Drive, and it was supposed to be Ben Kenobi, like noir detective, Jedi detective.

21:25Mallory Rubin:Acolyte clearly went through some kind of transformation from its inception to its actual release. They have messed with this stuff for the most part. And the reason why Andor is Andor for a hundred reasons is because they almost wrote it where it's like, you can't do anything to this. like they're you could you can have vader walk across the screen if you want but for the most part this thing is like so it's like a watch like you wouldn't be able to do anything with the gears

21:54Chris Ryan:and the and the and the hands you know what i mean i also think they they trapped themselves in a in a process that did not reward building a new like thing like they from the foundation built something weak, you know, without a plan looking ahead with just kind of freestyling movie to movie for that first trilogy back.

22:19Jason Mantzoukas:Would you say there was one fatal flaw inside of the machine and that if you just...

22:24Chris Ryan:Oh, and if you just like put the shield up. If you don't put the shield away, you put the aim, the device away and just trusted your... I mean, I would say like the thing that they didn't do with all of Star Wars and that, boy, do I hope Filoni will remedy it, is exactly the advice that Shorzy would give them. Go out, kill some guys. Fucking bro. Score some goals. Score some goals. Make sure they never forget who you are.

22:56Jason Mantzoukas:Never let them forget who you are. Who are we?

22:59Mallory Rubin:Let's talk about the Sudbury Blueberry Bulldogs. Yes! So four casuals who were just along for the ride for a few minutes here. Let me talk a little bit about Shorzy broadly. This is a now long-running Canadian sports comedy from Jared Kiso, who previously had done the incredibly long-running Letter Kenny, which was a Canadian slice-of-life comedy. When Jared Kiso first started Shorzy, it was in creative tandem somewhat with Jacob Tierney, who has since gone on to great acclaim for his writing and directing work on Heat of Rivalry, where he makes one of the most assured TV series in recent memory.

23:37Mallory Rubin:Oh, and one of the most explosive. Yes.

23:39Chris Ryan:In every way.

23:41Mallory Rubin:Yes.

23:45And Jared,

23:48Mallory Rubin:so he writes every episode, I believe, is credited to Kiso. I think there might be.

23:53Chris Ryan:No, I think there's a couple of other people.

23:55Mallory Rubin:But he did every episode this season.

23:56Chris Ryan:I think so.

23:57Jason Mantzoukas:If you had a computer open, you could check.

23:59Chris Ryan:And Shorzy is a character in Letterkenny. For many seasons in Letterkenny, Shorzy is an unseen character that Jared Kiso plays. Okay. So Kiso plays Shorzy in the show Shorzy that we watch, but he plays Wayne on Letterkenny, one of the leads. Right. But invents this side character who's a hockey player who's constantly taunting other hockey players, but it's always from like a bathroom stall or a shower. where he's just visually obfuscated. Yes.

24:30Mallory Rubin:The first three seasons of Shorzy are essentially a cycle about a semi-pro senior league hockey team in Sudbury rising from the... Should we start

24:42Jason Mantzoukas:calling it Burberry in honor of the great one? Wayne Gretzky who called it Burberry instead of Sudbury. Really funny. One of the most incredible moments of the season.

24:49Mallory Rubin:Shout out to everybody writing into the watch mailbox, the watch at Spotify.com because a lot of insight into how Canadians are feeling about Wayne Gretzky, the great one these days. Oh, really? How so? Mixed. Mixed why? I'm curious. I think that his.

25:04Chris Ryan:Or is there news or is this always been the case?

25:06Mallory Rubin:it's just, I think Wayne's gone out of his way to associate himself with our president here in the United States of America. I didn't know that. And our president has talked a lot about colonizing Canada. Oh no,

25:18Chris Ryan:I made a 51st state joke at a, how did this get made show in Vancouver? And they were not into it.

25:28Chris Ryan:they were not into it and booed me for quite a while because of the joke or because of the idea behind the joke i think because of the idea behind yeah they weren't like hey even that i they they wouldn't even entertain the joke of it it was they they shut it down so that came up but

25:48Mallory Rubin:you know and then so they do the first three seasons i think a flawless three season run which isn't to say there are really any flaws with four and five it's just a different show it's now about a post playing career for our titular character yep the fourth season I thought was lovely Jason and I talked about it a lot

26:05Jason Mantzoukas:yeah you sure did

26:06Chris Ryan:you sure did fourth season was a blast because it's like the show has so few moves to make in terms of these people and where they are and it's constantly calibrating and recalibrating them in context of the game the the league and each other in a wonderful way. But the fourth season did two incredible things, which was it introduced a series of young people that our team became the kind of mentors to, like teenagers. And the entire fourth season took place off-season. Yes. So it was about—

26:42Jason Mantzoukas:Summer in Sud Vegas. Yes.

26:43Chris Ryan:It was all about summer break. And so the vibes were so different. And it was such a refreshing way to tell Shorzy stories. Yes. And plus the love story between Shorzy and Laura is incredible in that season.

26:57Mallory Rubin:Yes, which takes another step this season.

26:59Chris Ryan:Which is why I was shocked when we did our season four wrap-up that you were insistent on not having Mal. You know? Yeah. You know, it's because I was like, she's right there. She's outside the window.

27:12Jason Mantzoukas:She's literally looking through the door.

27:14Mallory Rubin:Wearing a Bulldogs jersey. I don't remember why I didn't have you on. it might not have been a concerted effort or you may have been projecting a lot of stress at that moment

27:22Jason Mantzoukas:that would be shocking that doesn't seem likely

27:27Mallory Rubin:but you're here now I can't imagine it was that I'm going to lay out for you here tell me about your

27:36Jason Mantzoukas:relationship to Shorzy learned about it from you guys so that's nice because I cherish things that I get to share with you even if you don't feel the same way I will cry today as I cry during every season of Shorzy multiple times. A couple moments this season hit me so hard. I was sobbing like a baby. I love this show. It took me, as I think it takes some people, maybe like two, it's, you know, each season is six episodes. They're somewhere between 18 to like 27 minutes. And it took me probably like three episodes into the first season to get acclimated, right? To the tone, to the pace, to the nature of the dialogue, to the fact that every like fourth or fifth line is a repeated line of dialogue or an in-joke, the rhythm and language of the show.

28:15Jason Mantzoukas:Once I had a feel for that, I thought I was experiencing the most magical. I love sports, right? So it's a great sports story. It is a story about community. It is for the young characters and the old characters alike, eternally a coming of age story and a story about identity and sense of self. And I think it is a beautiful friendship and relationship story.

28:37Chris Ryan:And found family story in that regard.

28:39Jason Mantzoukas:Absolutely, yes. And so the ability, right, the micro and macro community, the community of the team, a line inside of the team and then Sudbury at large, Also then like one of the genius strokes in this season. Well, okay, you had something like the Hunt, right? The U.S. team in prior seasons is a real, like, real thorn in the side rival. And now it's like, well, we got to bring Schnurr.

29:01Chris Ryan:Yeah, love him.

29:02Jason Mantzoukas:Palmer Delaney back. This is a real. This team up.

29:05Chris Ryan:Yeah, echoes.

29:06Jason Mantzoukas:They never cease to surprise us. And it's always so hilariously side-splittingly funny. And I think so tender and moving. And often like profound.

29:16Chris Ryan:In a way that I am consistently shocked, you know, because Letterkenny is wonderful and has so much of all of the components that you're talking about, with the possible exception that it doesn't have nearly the heart that Shorzy has. I've not seen Letterkenny. Letterkenny is phenomenal and is truly one of the funniest shows out there, in my opinion. Was just pound for pound a joke machine. And Shorzy, though, has so much of that stuff and so many repeated jokes, exactly what you're talking about, building out the community. That's a big thing in Letterkenny. But Shorzy has this forward-moving plot.

29:55Chris Ryan:Letterkenny is week to week. You can watch it out of order. It wouldn't matter. None of it's cumulative. Right. Shorzy is a narrative story that has at its root an absolute heartbreaking story every season. Every season, there's something that's going on that will break your heart positively, negatively. Everybody is emotionally invested in a way that you are like, how do I have such access to these hockey players' emotions? And then I think it's really like, not to like jump straight to the end of this whole season, but Nat's lecture to the church women about why the hockey play why they're wrong about hockey players and the culture sure is incredible and was one of the times that I cried during the show

30:41Mallory Rubin:so I would say like for folks who are still listening even after we've gotten into this conversation and are still like looking for a reason to watch you could watch five and not know you know you could start on five and I had been kind of egging Andy on to watch the first episode of five because in many ways, I think the first episode of five is a perfect piece of television. And is the, if I had to tell somebody like, what does Shorzy do well? I'd be like, watch these three acts of television and tell me another show that's able to do the three things that this one does in one place. That being said, that episode and so many of those scenes hit so much harder if you know that Nat has basically been doing that same speech since season one.

31:26Mallory Rubin:Yeah. She has been like making the same kind of appeal to the larger community about the importance that sports plays in keeping a sense of like, you know, continuity and togetherness in a place a lot. And that's the thing is like we talk about it as a comedy, as a drama, as a sports show. I think it's also like when I was watching it this last season, I was like, this is a show about utopia because these guys are always like nobody has like a hard life in this show. like hard, hard. Like they are at strip clubs and hanging out at bars and getting chicken tendies.

32:02Chris Ryan:The fact that this season was so heavily focused on that Sudbury has, the strip club has reopened. Yes. Finally. Because there has never been a strip club in a previous season, I don't think. Or if it does, it's very fleeting. It's tough because they have

32:16Mallory Rubin:lots of nightclubs, but not necessarily a strip club.

32:20Chris Ryan:But this strip club is so foregrounded and its importance is so, it's so hilarious. in how often they are inside of and telling very sweet and having very emotional moments inside the strip club is really very funny and great.

32:35Mallory Rubin:And I've had like experiences like that. At a strip club? No, I just mean in a town.

32:40Chris Ryan:How much Scores funny money do you have in your wallet right now?

32:43Mallory Rubin:Do you know what Scores... Scores was like pretty big when I was in New York.

32:50Chris Ryan:Same, that's my strip club reference.

32:52Mallory Rubin:I never went to Scores. I don't think it exists anymore.

32:55Chris Ryan:I definitely did.

32:56Mallory Rubin:I went to like an Atlantic City place and they played Joelle Santana and I was like, this is pretty awesome.

33:01Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah. Were you there with Delaney?

33:03Mallory Rubin:No, it was a bachelor party. Getting lappies. Getting lappies. Getting lappies with Delaney. Loves a lappy. Loves cocaine. Anyway, I had a point. But anyway, it's a depiction of utopia. Yeah.

33:15Jason Mantzoukas:I think everything you said was so beautiful just now. I would like you to say it all again. But on this table, posed like Hitch. Forward. Yeah. With a blanket around you and a laptop in front of you.

33:26Chris Ryan:You're so right because it is inside of that first episode is everything. That's great about the show. Every piece of what makes it is in microcosm the show.

33:38Mallory Rubin:This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else. But that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn more at VW.com. From now on, spoilers for season five and spoilers pretty much for the entirety of Shorzy because we'll probably reference things.

34:15Mallory Rubin:This first season opens up with, and I don't really have a roadmap for how I want to talk about this. I thought we could just enjoy ourselves. The first episode of season five opens with a group of these guys who I guess are living together. I didn't really process that in previous seasons. They have always been living together. But they are all living in a...

34:33Jason Mantzoukas:Shorzy and Big Sexy's apartment. Apartment. Yeah.

34:36Mallory Rubin:And are all simultaneously masturbating.

34:39Jason Mantzoukas:Whacking it.

34:39Mallory Rubin:Shorzy comes home and is like, do you guys want to go get beers? And everybody is not in... Everybody's in their rooms. Yes. And as he goes into each one of their rooms without knocking, each one of them is masturbating...

34:50Jason Mantzoukas:In their own unique way.

34:51Mallory Rubin:In their own unique way. Yes. What did this, what kind of insight did this give you into the male mindset? That we're all poets, right? That we're all individual artists.

35:02Jason Mantzoukas:I thought this was possibly the best scene in television history.

35:06Chris Ryan:It's so funny and it's like so true. Okay.

35:10Jason Mantzoukas:Which part struck you as most true? Who did you each relate to the most? Hitchcock? On all fours.

35:16Chris Ryan:I think it is so true that guys are up to stuff.

35:19Jason Mantzoukas:Goody, like, my buddy plugged the laptop in.

35:21Chris Ryan:He's trying to give you game right here. Let him cook. Guys are up to stuff that they think is what everybody else is doing. Okay. I think guys are doing stuff. Guys figure stuff out as kids that they just maintain and think this is what everybody has figured out. This is how everybody does this. And only when confronted with somebody interrupting and being like, what? When Shorzy walks in on Hitch and is like, what are you doing? Yeah. And Hitch is on all fours with a blanket over him like he's like snuffle off against or something. I was like, what's happening? It was perfect. And just the absolute easy.

36:04Chris Ryan:What do you think I'm doing?

36:05Mallory Rubin:And which one of them is watching Tryon Halls? Hitch. Oh, yeah.

36:08Jason Mantzoukas:Because he has the whole speech about how you can't watch porn because then you can't actually have sex. And then Dolo is in the shower also jerking off. And Shorty's like, do you have a laptop? And then he's like, spank, bank. Yes. Oh, yeah.

36:21Mallory Rubin:So Dolo's going off memory.

36:23Jason Mantzoukas:Great stuff.

36:24Mallory Rubin:Hitch is masturbating to shopping mall try-on halls.

36:28Chris Ryan:But also, it took me a number. I have closed captioning on it all the time. But it took me a while to figure out he was saying try-on halls.

36:36Jason Mantzoukas:I thought it was house at first.

36:38Chris Ryan:Because Hitch's accent is so nuts. Yes. Oh, boy. And so it's even funnier because you're like, so that when I realized he was saying try-on halls, I was like, this is incredible.

36:48Jason Mantzoukas:It's the best.

36:49Mallory Rubin:So the guys go out and get beers after this is settled. We get beers? It's like an eight-minute scene that is, to your point, about the repetitive nature of the jokes and the jokes building. And then they'll deflate for a second. We're like, you're doing this again. And then it'll be like three times funny.

37:06Jason Mantzoukas:Meta, so you build, you climax, and then you deflate.

37:07Mallory Rubin:But I always think about the—

37:09Chris Ryan:The refractory period for the jokes can be minutes and sometimes episodes long.

37:12Mallory Rubin:Will Ferrell falling through the floor in Austin Powers. And that joke goes on for so long that it gets so much more funny once it gets back. It's the Mr.

37:21Chris Ryan:Show thimble sketch. Yes.

37:23Mallory Rubin:They then are like, let's go get beers. They go out and get beers and get a ride from one of the MILFs that I believe they slept with last season.

37:31Jason Mantzoukas:No, Jill has wanted to sleep with Shorzy. Jill has wanted to. The Charlize Theron lookalike, the doppelganger Jill, who has been like, you know, Shorzy, you should teach the youth. And Shorzy, if you just come in the back and then he's like, I'm going to leave, I'm going to go to Laura. So she's been trying to hook up with Shorzy, including in this episode where she's like, I'm just deciding,

37:49Chris Ryan:Am I going to turn the heat on or am I going to have someone there to keep me warm?

37:53Jason Mantzoukas:And then, of course, building toward the threesome plot, which was a stroke of absolute genius. Incredible. Absolute genius.

37:58Mallory Rubin:They go to one of the kids from the previous seasons. Jack is in a youth hockey, a national youth hockey team now. Where is he playing? Like, I don't know, 90 minutes away somewhere. And they go and you're like, this is great. This is so funny. These guys are drinking beers. These guys are hanging out. Now it's going to be Shorzy and his boys at a youth hockey game. This is going to be hilarious.

38:18Chris Ryan:And it's really sweet because they're going to support one of the kids we met last season. Yes. Which is lovely. A blueberry buddy.

38:25Mallory Rubin:And they're told in the car that this kid has been having a little bit of trouble, but they don't really get into it. Right.

38:30Jason Mantzoukas:He's not scoring goals, and he's a goal scorer.

38:31Mallory Rubin:Shorzy and the guy show up. They're in the hallway. They talk to the kid's coach for a second. They know who he is. There's some debate about, like, the right way to play hockey, et cetera. And then Jack comes out from the locker room to see Shorzy. And you're like, this is cool. This is whatever. And they all are like, Jack, Jack, Jack. and he gets pulled away by Shorzy. And as you can see, as he's walking down the hall, Jack's crying. Yes. And he's just like...

38:53Chris Ryan:He's like uncontrollably overwhelmed emotionally and starts to cry.

38:58Mallory Rubin:And in almost any other iteration of a television show like this, Shorzy turns that into a joke and it becomes like a huge, like, I don't get you young kids and how you have emotions and like your Gen Z millennial wokeness or whatever.

39:13Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah.

39:13Mallory Rubin:And instead, Shorzy's just like, let it out. Yeah.

39:16Jason Mantzoukas:Puts his arm around him.

39:17Mallory Rubin:He's like, you already started, so let's finish it. Get it out. And he's covering for him. And he makes sure he can't see, and nobody can see. Nobody can see it. And he's just like, what's the problem? And he's like, you know, I want to go home. And he's like, none of your friends are at home. What the fuck do you want to go home for? And they have this long conversation. And it is so beautiful and so amazingly well done. And, you know, Kiso is like obviously a polymath talent. Like I have no doubt that he can do all this different stuff. but jeez and I didn't expect like to get hit that hard in minute 11

39:48Chris Ryan:his ability, this show's ability his ability specifically and it happens in Letterkenny just not as frequently to turn from something that is just outright absurdly hilarious of like looking at each of the guys jerking off, comparing jerk off come over here and look at him jerk off you gotta see what this guy's up to building, building, building, heightening this joke and then cutting directly from that into this incredibly emotionally available and sweet moment between him and Jack that then is the spine of the rest of the show. You know, like Jack coming back after each quarter and Shorzy basically outlining, this is what you're going to do.

40:34Chris Ryan:First things first, you're going to, and then in, once again, in microcosm, he sets up how Jack is going to get himself out of his head onto the ice and into the game. And that is exactly what happens for the rest of the season for them.

40:48Jason Mantzoukas:And this was the first thing you texted me about the season was, did you, like, how much did you cry? When he put his, and I was so touched and so moved because it's the perfect shortcut to unlocking everything about the show and the characters. This is like kind of the case for why you shouldn't just start with season five or any, you should just start at the beginning because it is like to your, oh, he could have like mocked them and ribbed them. that is where we started with the Blueberry Buddies with the helicoptering and the toxic masculinity. Also, he's the guy

41:17Mallory Rubin:who's like reffing youth hockey games and just talking about all his mothers

41:21Chris Ryan:for like the entire time. That's how Shorzy started was just as an antagonist to the young people in Letter Camp. Right, the Corey and Liam.

41:28Jason Mantzoukas:Exactly. And so you have you have that as like the backdrop. The building from that and like toward the end of last season we moved into this really like emotionally resonant place with the karaoke and with Jack's pursuit of Maria and how that mapped onto Shorzy's relationship with Laura and the reading of the no, which I remember you guys talking about in the pod how hard that hit you. But it's not just inside of their relationship and how that tells us that Shorzy, who we've seen cry in every episode of the show probably, he's always a free crier even when he's a dick, were on the part two journey of the show, which is about him being a leader and a coach.

42:05Jason Mantzoukas:So you have to actually believe that he could unite all of these people under his direction and that they would say, and the number of people we heard, you should coach. And he had to decide, like, this is where I want to put my love. And then you see what that means to him and why he's good at it so authentically. It was beautiful.

42:23Chris Ryan:Yeah. I thought it was incredible. And there is. You watch him have to, at the end of the last season, he is forced to, and you watch him have to give up playing and all that that means to him. And this season, I think one of the things we learn is his reluctance to coach or what's a little bit holding him back is that for him, that's his brother. Yeah. And so new character for this season is Mo, who is Shorzy's brother, Shorzy's big brother. and that was those moments give you such insight into shorzy when you realize like how much he's like that's one of the moments that i cried is like when when he shorzy's going around and saying who are you who are you in the locker room to everybody who are you and everybody's defining themselves yeah this is who i am this is who i am and they said he says who and he says i'm shorzy's big brother and i was like yeah uh-oh you know like so it's like that to me also was It's like, oh, put Shorzy inside of a family dynamic that I didn't really know.

43:26Jason Mantzoukas:I think that's another great example of how the show has always had a lot of heart, but the emotional heft has expanded. Because earlier insights, which were very brief in prior seasons into Shorzy's history, is like, he was adopted and what did that mean? Like, learning that he was called, like, Waffle as a kid and stuff like that. It was all, like, it was joke-based. And there's still a lot of humor here. but this is the first time that we've understood that he can't like talk about what his brother meant to him without breaking down. Yeah, I thought that that was like,

43:54Mallory Rubin:it's easier for him to coach a kid through their emotions than it is for him to deal with his own. You know, and that kind of comes up again in the second episode. And I'll just finish the first episode dissection. We're not going to go through every episode at this level of detail. I mean, we could if we wanted to, but - Every episode. I just thought that the third act of this episode, which is essentially like, he's kind of talked Jack into going back out and playing. and this show does hockey really well and they do, they photograph sports really well and I think that it's the most legible kind of like execution of a game on TV right now when you're watching it but what they choose to do is Shorzy, every period of a game that Jack is playing gives Jack a lesson an idea to follow like a simple goal so if you feel like you're not having a good time and your game is not firing what you got to do is you got to fucking kill some guys yes so the first bell goes and he comes back and he's like yeah he killed some guys and now what are you going to do you're going to score a goal and he goes out and he scores a goal and then he's like what are you going to do in the third period you're going to make sure they always remember who you are never let them forget who you are and the fact that they do that in those like three mini scenes within one scene without ever showing jack playing without ever showing shore z going back to the crowd it's just like they meet up in the hallway behind the ice then they go their separate ways and they do it three times is their joke style applied to drama, which is awesome oh yeah

45:24Chris Ryan:and it's so rewarding because that stuff, all of those component pieces then become the structure for them versus the EU team and you hear when Jack and the rest of the Blueberry Buddies are on the sidelines of that team.

45:42Jason Mantzoukas:Mason Carter and Caleb

45:44Chris Ryan:when they're all there watching the game you know Jack repeats almost like a mantra Jack has internalized Shorzy's teaching which Shorzy has now told us was his brother's teaching that his brother had a way of simplifying things for him so that it's not Shorzy is good at this it is Mo is good at this and Shorzy is just telling us Mo there's an episode of I don't think either of you watch it, but there's an incredible episode of Freerun Beyond Journeys. I'm about to start this.

46:18Jason Mantzoukas:Lindbergh was recommending this to me. It's the greatest show on TV.

46:20Chris Ryan:Full stop. Wow. And it's Freerun's like, kill some guys? Kill some guys. Well, no, there's this incredible episode where Names and beers. Get some puppers. They go, Freerun travels with two other people, two young people. She's like an immortal elf and she travels with two humans. and they're kind of of the same age, and they have like a kind of will-they-won't-they dynamic. Classic health stuff. And Fern and Stark. And they are going to go on a date, and Stark asks Freeran, where should I take Fern on this date? And Freeran walks him to a marketplace. You should take her to look at this. You should take her to look at that, this, and that.

47:07Chris Ryan:And at the end of this whole sequence, he says, wow, you really know Fern well. And she's like, I don't. These are all the things that Haider, her father figure, told me about Fern. Oh, I love that. And it's this wonderful moment where you realize Freeran is an incredible maternal figure to these young people. But that for her, she has such trouble learning about people, really, that she's taken what Haider told her and has just expanded on it. And it's this beautiful moment in what is unquestionably the most beautiful show, visually and fanatically. What channel is this on? It's on, oh, it's on, I'm watching it on Crunchyroll.

47:50Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, they have it on Netflix.

47:51Chris Ryan:The first season's on Netflix, at least. It's all over the place.

47:56Mallory Rubin:Did you like how I asked you what channel it was on? Like I was 100 years old.

48:00Chris Ryan:It's on channel 56. Just tune it in. You've got rabbit ears.

48:04Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, just move the antenna. Okay, anyway, sorry. The opening sequence also, more so, that's kind of the emotional core, but like we get little things set up that are really crucial, like the dive. You know, oh, you can't hit anybody because the other player's going to take a dive and you don't want to hurt your team because you get a penalty. So this setup for the big speech we're going to hear Shorzy make at Brodude in the second episode and then the backdrop of what we hear from Teppo, the EU coach. Iconic, iconic villain character.

48:30Chris Ryan:What a wild character.

48:31Jason Mantzoukas:Just incredible stuff, but also there's the conversation with Cunningham, the coach of that team, who is like, as we learn, a three-time coach of the year. So sort of the poster boy for what a coach should be.

48:40Mallory Rubin:And he's more new school is like wearing a cool suit. Right, exactly.

48:43Jason Mantzoukas:But he's also like talking about the kids like you got to treat them like dogs. Yeah. That's not how Shorzy is focusing on this at all. And that discussion they have about how would you rather win or lose honorably or dishonorably, which ends up being this thing that almost like Shorzy has absorbed via osmosis. And it is this thing that comes back at the finale in this big where he's like, I had an epiphany. Like, I have clarity about what matters to me.

49:09Chris Ryan:Well, what's so clear is that, and has always been clear, is that Shorzy plays dirty. Oh, yeah. You know, and that proudly plays dirty.

49:17Mallory Rubin:Well, the episode almost begins with, like, this dream that he's having of just destroying an entire team of guys by, like, hitting him in the ankles with his hockey stick. Just slashing.

49:27Chris Ryan:He's just, like, an absolute beast on the ice. And so this idea of like honor is introduced this season, which is like incredible. And for him to try and figure out like how to, is it to lose honorably or to win dishonorably is a great.

49:44Mallory Rubin:I thought that this was a season that was almost way more about like an idea than it was about a story. Like the story is good. It's somewhat reminiscent of earlier seasons. It's about a traveling EU all-star team, European Union all-star team, which is, you know, kind of funny, like in the world kind of political chessboard. It's funny to watch like the evil EU coming in. You're like, I can think of some other guys who are evil. And then the sort of vanishing identity of Canadian and North American hockey culture and how it needs to be reestablished in order to defend their turf. because this EU team is just burning down the fucking building everywhere they go.

50:26Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, I think that's exactly what you're saying about it. It's more about an idea and almost something, not even philosophical, but like existential, soul deep, right? Because this I loved structurally, and I think the way that the show adapts season over season, real continuity but slight tweaks that make it feel much bigger and broader and wider and more sweeping. Like we're going wider and deeper at the same time. Think about where we were previously in the show's run, the idea of this team, the Sudbury Blueberry Bulldogs, folding inside of the existing no-show was the crisis. And now, Shorty walks in and Nat's like, the no-show is folding.

50:59Jason Mantzoukas:It's just gone. So we think this season is going to be about watching him coach the Bulldogs. The team doesn't exist because the league doesn't exist. And it's kind of cool

51:06Mallory Rubin:because for as much as I'm like, oh, it's this utopia and these guys don't have financial problems and they just sort of jerk off and go get beers and stuff like that.

51:14Jason Mantzoukas:Needs must.

51:15Mallory Rubin:It's fascinating when the outside world shows like how they feel about this scenario because like there's a basketball team that basically moves into the arena overnight and immediately like redoes the locker room and it's like they they do that and not only that but they seem to be successful yes

51:36Chris Ryan:what what we're being told in the story of the show is that senior whale shit hockey is is unsustainable. And so all these teams in their greater league have folded, except for the Bulldogs and like one other team, I can't remember. And so there is no longer, there's not enough interest. It's too expensive to have the ice up, so they lose their ice time. All of these things that befall them, to then put them on a stage, which is, oh, you're playing worldwide players. It's not even like another team from, you know, Quebec. you're playing like EU professional players, but then to take it out of their thing, my favorite move of this whole season was to put the game outside.

52:22Chris Ryan:Yes.

52:23Jason Mantzoukas:That's chills.

52:24Chris Ryan:Made me, I was like, this is incredible. Yeah. When you first see the,

52:29Mallory Rubin:and you see the boards of the outdoor rink. Covered in blood. Yeah.

52:33Jason Mantzoukas:From the psycho church league. But that's another example of like,

52:36Mallory Rubin:you know, the women from the church who host the final match. Yeah. And their take on hockey and hockey players is like, you can never trust them. This always happens when we had the beer league, church league. Those guys play like psychos. They were psychos and you would have to have the cops here every time. And it's sort of a little bit more about like how hockey is being viewed by the modern Canadian person in a changing world.

53:00Chris Ryan:Well, and that's what the whole dynamic, the comparison between the EU and the North American play is that the Europeans played a much more graceful game. Like, Shorzy's monologue on Bro Dude. Boy, I mean, like, better monologues of the year. Shorzy on Bro Dude talking about North American hockey versus Canadian hockey or Billy Bob Thornton in Landman talking about The View. I mean

53:33Mallory Rubin:it's really hard to call it

53:34Jason Mantzoukas:talking about sticking his dick in an omelet that was also memorable

53:38Mallory Rubin:well I guess that wouldn't work because Hulu does but if Shorzy were somehow brought into the Paramount universe but we could put Angela

53:49Jason Mantzoukas:in Game of Thrones

53:51Mallory Rubin:why can't Ainsley become the Bulldog's physical therapist I love this I would watch Yeah.

54:00Jason Mantzoukas:I would watch.

54:02Chris Ryan:There's a way in which, so there's this whole thing that he's talking about. The North American style of play is dying. It's dead. And the EU's coming over here, and they're beating us at our own game, basically. And there is, like, no sense of pride. And that's what it's all about. And I want to be clear. This is my camera. Yeah. I don't like sports. Now, I know that I'm not allowed to say that here on a ringer show.

54:32Mallory Rubin:But it seems like you really wanted to get that off your chest and do it direct to camera. I don't follow sports.

54:37Chris Ryan:I'm not a sporto. But I am obsessed with this. I love this show. And so I'm saying that for the people who are like, I've heard about this show. But I don't like hockey. I don't like sports. That's not for me. I could very easily see people thinking it's not for them, but it is very much for you.

54:58Mallory Rubin:I don't know of many things, many sports TV shows or movies that I think would deeply satisfy people who have no interest in the sport. And who care about it more than it.

55:07Chris Ryan:I think the only one that I would say that fits the bill is Friday Night Lights. I think works for everybody. Yes. You know.

55:16Jason Mantzoukas:For many of the same reasons.

55:17Mallory Rubin:But even football fans will be like, but the football in Friday Night Lights is preposterous. preposterous I've got some notes

55:23Jason Mantzoukas:on scheme yeah or the preponderance

55:25Mallory Rubin:of Hail Marys that Sarah's for sure no question okay so we have the EU plotline that goes through the second season we could talk about Teppo Maki

55:33Jason Mantzoukas:what a character what a figure great character he's like they're overrated

55:37Mallory Rubin:Shorzy basically puts together a team of the no show all stars yes

55:41Jason Mantzoukas:it's an enemies to lovers story these used to be the rivals and they are united in a common goal which is the restoration of that pride and identity that's why the outdoor rink is so perfect it's like Like the reason that you fell in love with the thing in the first place. Like that core germ of it and your relationship to it. Like do it there.

55:58Chris Ryan:And it feels so much more local and real and street level to be like we're at this outdoor rink. Everybody looks cold. Everything looks like it's brutal.

56:11Jason Mantzoukas:They're shoveling up the blood slushies after the fight.

56:14Mallory Rubin:It's so good. But the montage essentially. And there's maybe a montage or two too many this season. but like the montage of them putting together the no show all stars and the fucking freezer twins on zoom killed me. So good. So funny. Like the freezer twins bit. I don't know what the limit is of like how long I could watch a freezer twins scene.

56:39Chris Ryan:Oh yeah.

56:39Mallory Rubin:But it might be like two hours. Well,

56:41Chris Ryan:I loved that one of them is just absent for part of like a whole scene. It's just taking a pee. I mean like, like, and that's the thing. The show is,

56:51Mallory Rubin:What's he like, I got my cousin's wedding in July? Yeah, and that's in like July.

56:55Jason Mantzoukas:And they're like, don't worry, it's going to be sooner. And he's like, how soon Survivor's about to start? Like he thinks it might be tonight. That's incredible.

57:03Chris Ryan:The freezer twins. And then later when they're talking to Mercedes, it's like, I fucked the fridge twins. Yeah. She thinks they're called the fridge boys or whatever.

57:13Jason Mantzoukas:Poor Michaels. He's like, I was wondering why they were here.

57:16Mallory Rubin:So we get the freezer twins. We get Shur. we get the Italian guy Sylvester Sly Sylvester who

57:24Chris Ryan:the repetition of put a hockey stick in my hand and I become a totally different person and that at least four different people say that exact same line in regards to just stuff

57:36Mallory Rubin:I believe Sylvester is the guy from the 98 get Bedard's fucking number off your back that guy and then my favorite of all of them is Delaney who is the coke head stripper addict that is also like a dynamite goal scorer. That's right.

57:53Jason Mantzoukas:Loves to score goals.

57:53Mallory Rubin:And needs to go through basically a trial of the seven to get himself back on the team after he shows up late one time, right? He's just getting lappies.

58:04Chris Ryan:They think he's not body.

58:07Jason Mantzoukas:He's on the strip club side instead of the mixer. It's supposed to be team building

58:10Mallory Rubin:and Delaney's getting lappies. He's like, these lappies are incredible.

58:14Jason Mantzoukas:He shows up later with the two strippers because you hadn't been able to pay. So it's bring them to the locker room. Then the phone is ringing. It's so good. It's so good.

58:24Chris Ryan:It's so good because it really is. Again, it's so easy to, I think, get access to a young person's sports story. You know, like young people and what it means to be striving for this thing. It's such a magic trick to make you care about guys in their 40s and 50s and their attempts to win a sports game that means so clearly so much to them, but that you understand contextually like is preposterous in the life of people this age. Sure. You know?

58:54Jason Mantzoukas:I love when they're talking about, because Scherzi is learning, the tracksuit also a great recurring bit and the slight changes in sheets. It's so funny. This is very Winkle. You know, are we going to be able to get these guys to unite toward this common goal and do this thing? And he's like, they'd walk. And then you see immediately that for every single one of them, that's true, they're quitting their job Schnurr is under a sink doing a plumbing repair like Sly is at the yeah Palmer's chopping wood Sly is at the restaurant and they're just like I need to know literally nothing other than that this is happening and I need to be a part of it gorgeous gourd

59:29Mallory Rubin:also there

59:30Jason Mantzoukas:the gyms are back possibly my favorite subtle gyms are prison guards yes my favorite subtle return joke to something from a prior season was after Sly says something he's not supposed to and Scherzi's trying to figure out who in the locker room said it. And then one of the gyms reveals that it was sly, and then Goody's like, gyms are tattlers. Gyms are tattlers.

59:53Mallory Rubin:They are. They've done that before. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right, so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong.

1:00:01Chris Ryan:Bro, Skycoin, way better than points.

1:00:05Jason Mantzoukas:Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade.

1:00:11Mallory Rubin:Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with Kayak and get your trip right. Bad advice? You talking to me? Kayak. Got that right.

1:00:24Chris Ryan:We're leaving today and entering a world of Mickey Mouse waving, princess meeting and greeting, lightsaber clashing, the Twilight Zone Tower of Terror dropping, Banshee flying, Space Mountain launching, galaxy rewinding, what is the book that looks galaxy rewinding? fireworks igniting world of other worlds for whatever you love. Infinite worlds await at the most magical place on earth.

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1:01:26Jason Mantzoukas:Who's your favorite character? Do you guys have a power ranking? Who do you— I mean, obviously, the show doesn't function without Shorzy, but like—

1:01:33Chris Ryan:But from everybody else? Everybody else. So, like, I have, like, a real profound love for Hitch.

1:01:39Jason Mantzoukas:Me too. Yeah.

1:01:41Chris Ryan:And maybe the moment that I cried the most, or the hardest— No question. —that got me the deepest was when Shorzy makes Hitch captain.

1:01:49Jason Mantzoukas:I was a wreck.

1:01:50Chris Ryan:And Hitch starts to try to talk, but starts to cry. And they all jump on him, immediately jump on him and hug him. And I was like, like moved by that moment because there is an element of the show that is definitely about these men who are truly unable to understand their emotions. Yes. In almost every way. None of them have successful relationships except for now in these later two seasons, Shorzy sort of, you know, is getting there. This season especially, yes. but it took all of last trials and tribulations of last year for Shorzy to get to a relationship, you know? And I feel like watching these men grapple with like just emotionality is moving, you know?

1:02:38Chris Ryan:And sports allows them to exercise or exorcise those feelings.

1:02:44Jason Mantzoukas:I love that. And then the payoff of when they're all going around the who are you, another quiet genius touch, by the way, the whiteboard behind them, everybody goes, which we saw at the end of the panel. I got to chill. It's like, you know, all the episodes where we've seen the lineup read. I do miss Sanguinette, of course. I do, too. It's like, you're going. You're fucking going.

1:03:00Mallory Rubin:Is Sanger in fucking Hamnet? Like, where is Sanger? And he's not going back at his own.

1:03:04Chris Ryan:I wonder if he's on another show. That's what I was curious about. I meant to look it up before this. They keep referencing him

1:03:08Mallory Rubin:and calling him and stuff.

1:03:09Jason Mantzoukas:I like that we hear about him just, I mean, obviously, it's to answer, address the fact that he's not there, but it's like keeping him in the mix so he could come back. Sure. But then when everyone's doing the

1:03:22Jason Mantzoukas:Hitch's answer is captain of the ship.

1:03:24Mallory Rubin:Yeah.

1:03:25Jason Mantzoukas:Captain of the ship. It's the most important aspect of his identity, that honor.

1:03:28Mallory Rubin:I think my two favorite characters that are non-Shoresy department would probably be Zeke. Uh-huh. Great. Just because Zeke and Shoresy do the same thing every year, which is for five episodes, they say the worst possible things that you could think of to another person. And then there's like one incredible moment of tenderness in the last episode and you're just like, I'm fucking sold.

1:03:49Jason Mantzoukas:The dancing this season.

1:03:51Mallory Rubin:Yeah, really great. And then... Goody. Oh, I was going to say Jory. Oh, Jory Jordan? Yeah. Incredible.

1:03:57Jason Mantzoukas:I would watch the sports report every day. I wish they would make content that is just that.

1:04:02Mallory Rubin:If I could explain it to Bill in a way that he wouldn't just start walking away in the middle of the conversation, I would be like, Jory should be a podcast on the ring. Ugh. And it's just like Jory interviewing... Wow. Yeah. Like conca nipple, you know?

1:04:18Chris Ryan:that's the kind of thing that I think and I don't even know who or what that was but like I think because I was watching it this time and I was like oh it would be funny if they put out just material that was

1:04:30Jason Mantzoukas:five minute

1:04:30Chris Ryan:Jory talking Adam Bode and Kristen Bell

1:04:33Mallory Rubin:they should make

1:04:35Jason Mantzoukas:a Jory Jory Instagram really got a kick out of the vlogs into sucking hogs that was a good one good one turn to phrase I love Goody he's just my favorite

1:04:45Mallory Rubin:What are some of the like kind of tertiary plot lines from the season that you found interesting? Like there's a little bit of a throw some out. So there's Shorzy's kind of burgeoning media career that is acting as spokesperson for the Canadian way of hockey. But also like, you know, Anik obviously wants him to be on Brodude. There's this weird, I wouldn't say weird, but there's like this Gretzky episode where it's like a lot of it is like Shorzy's about to start crying because Gretzky and he are going to do a TV episode together. And then it's just like a FaceTime call.

1:05:15Jason Mantzoukas:Is there anyone you guys would say to, like, you could shut an elevator door on my nuts and it would be fine? As Shorzy said to Gretzky. Anyone you feel that way about?

1:05:22Mallory Rubin:And I love, because it's that great. Tom Hardy. If Tom Hardy was doing Bane.

1:05:30Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah.

1:05:30Mallory Rubin:And he wanted to shut my nuts.

1:05:32Chris Ryan:But somehow on Taboo Island.

1:05:34Mallory Rubin:He's like, only one of your nuts can make it out of the elevator shaft. Oh, see, oh. Produce your nuts.

1:05:42Chris Ryan:You know?

1:05:43Mallory Rubin:Yeah.

1:05:43Chris Ryan:I'd do it. Yeah. I'd do it I'd do it yeah no you told us you would we believe you we didn't put this on you you brought this to the table my guy what about you

1:05:56Jason Mantzoukas:proverbial nuts proverbial uh boy

1:06:00Mallory Rubin:and it can't be fictional it has to be a real person a real person yeah it can't be like oh Jon Snow I love you

1:06:06Jason Mantzoukas:yeah I was gonna say Ghost of the Dire Wolf no no it has to be a real person get him back in the mix the only people I really care about are you guys you know

1:06:12Chris Ryan:and we would never do that too never

1:06:14Jason Mantzoukas:No.

1:06:15Chris Ryan:I think it would be R.I.P. Anthony Bourdain. Oh, geez. Well, you got me there. I would absolutely let Bourdain close an elevator door on my nuts. Happily. Happily so. Thanks for coming on The Watch. We'll be back on Monday.

1:06:31Mallory Rubin:So we have the Gretzky thing in episode two. Yes.

1:06:34Chris Ryan:What I loved about the Gretzky thing is it clearly is so meaningful to him. and I feel like the show is setting you up for this kind of like, it's a rug pull. Oh, at the very last minute, Gretzky's not coming. And Annika and the producer are pissed.

1:06:52Jason Mantzoukas:Yes.

1:06:53Chris Ryan:And they're like really being nasty about Gretzky. It's a bullshit move. It's amateur for him to cancel. They're pissed off. And Shorzy just goes into the most beautiful. Yeah, he's like, can you believe he even thought about doing this? Going to be here is the best moment of my life. And his monologue then is so good. And then not just that moment where he, I think, you know what I think? I think, you know, what is it? The mute of Gretzky win the game. He just starts going on. All this stuff is how meaningful and important Gretzky is to him. Yeah. Then he takes this tiny transactional moment that he has almost on TV with Gretzky.

1:07:34Chris Ryan:and then he gets to FaceTime with Gretzky for, I don't know, half a minute or something. You see him have a little bit of a chat with Gretzky and then he dines out on that positively.

1:07:43Mallory Rubin:For the entire season. For the whole season.

1:07:45Chris Ryan:He uses it to whip up his guys. Because he's like, Gretzky wants to have,

1:07:49Mallory Rubin:he wants us to show him like.

1:07:50Chris Ryan:Gretzky said, are you guys going to show, he's watching. Give me something to watch this year. Are you guys going to give me something to watch this year?

1:07:56Jason Mantzoukas:And he also, that's when he says the thing about like, you know, the hockey, like the hockey community, we've got each other's backs, we stick up for each other. did you think we were just saying that? Yeah. I love that moment and that line and that idea. And it's basically, that's a trampoline that allows us to get the Nat speech at the end about like hockey culture and that community.

1:08:13Mallory Rubin:And I will just say, it's worth noting, people listening to this probably already know this, but strangely enough, out of this TV show has emerged this burgeoning live event vertical of Shorzy where they are essentially going around North America playing ex-NHL stars. we had a chance to go see them in LA we went to a hockey game first of all there was definitely like 6-10 ,000 people there entirely decked out in Shorzy stuff

1:08:43Chris Ryan:it was so funny to watch a hockey game where everybody there is there for Shorzy and they're playing the LA Kings alumni league and I felt like it was really funny because the LA Kings were constantly being booed in their home house because everybody there was there for the Shorzy team, which must have been a very surreal experience.

1:09:07Mallory Rubin:And there was like an element of just like also watching these guys actually play hockey or just like an American TV show does not let Matt Saracen play against the Denver Broncos. Yeah, like all of these guys have hockey experience. Yeah, but not even if you do or don't, it's like the Shorzy taking a puck to the face would derail this television series for a year. You know what I mean? They would just write it

1:09:31Jason Mantzoukas:into the plot, man. Probably would. Goody misses another tooth?

1:09:35Mallory Rubin:Great. I just bring it up because I think that as this show has gone on, it has started to take on this second life or another outside of the show. It is now a kind of lifestyle thing that is pretty interesting. And I almost felt like this season reflected that. That it was like the sort of ideals of hockey can live beyond just hockey itself.

1:09:58Chris Ryan:Well, and what a cool way to like build your audience, hopefully, is not to just like, you know, like a lot of people go out there. Shows want you to go out there and like promote somehow and do this or that. But like for their for the for their promotion to just be an exhibition hockey game, which is the thing the show's about, not like the actors being like, here's how we make. Let me tell you how we make the show. It is like, oh, how would you like to be inside the show? Do you want to be inside of a Shorzy game? Here we are.

1:10:29Mallory Rubin:The problem with Endor, they didn't depose any leaders in real life, you know?

1:10:32Chris Ryan:Yeah. Something to think about.

1:10:34Mallory Rubin:Something to think about. What were some other secondary plot lines?

1:10:38Chris Ryan:I think one of the best, and it was alluded to earlier, is the Jill propositioning Shorzy and Laura, because it plays out over a couple of episodes, and it really is this interesting, because we almost, like I said, we almost never see relationships addressed. All the dynamics and relationships that we see in the show are between our teammates. There aren't really.

1:11:03Mallory Rubin:The gyms have slept with these women that these guys were also into.

1:11:07Jason Mantzoukas:You have to pick between them.

1:11:08Mallory Rubin:Exactly. And it's none of them have. Remember when the gyms were like, I looked into her eyes all night. We spoke, you know, next thing I knew, sun was up.

1:11:16Jason Mantzoukas:And then Britt picked Jim and he's like, we should do something really amicable and lovely now. And she's like, let's go to the strip club. Yeah.

1:11:23Chris Ryan:which is on the other side of this bar yeah really funny but so so not only to get into for last season for Shorzy to really have to prove himself to Laura to win her because she knows as does everybody hockey players can't be trusted in relationships sluts

1:11:40Jason Mantzoukas:you don't date sluts you just take them down

1:11:43Chris Ryan:yeah

1:11:47Jason Mantzoukas:it's a great show I love seeing you

1:11:49Chris Ryan:just at the safety office you know

1:11:50Jason Mantzoukas:it's a great show I'm just quoting canon.

1:11:54Chris Ryan:This is the text of our time. I agree. Zeke just being like, what do you want, slut? Every time Shorzy walks in. Incredible. Yeah. So you get a relationship. You build to a relationship at the end of last season. Yes. When he runs that marathon, when he gets that, when the letter is read. Oh, my God. And then this season, as they're negotiating, you know, like the idea that you would tell me in season five of Shorzy, Like he's negotiating moving in with his girlfriend and like negotiating the dynamics of his relationship with her teenage son. I would be like, oh, that sounds like not Shorzy. And it is absolutely Shorzy in the best way.

1:12:35Chris Ryan:And this thing where Jill propositions Laura and Shorzy and the way they talk it out and the way it gets talked out and this idea of like, oh, you talk to your friends about me. How do you talk to your friends about me? Yeah, I loved that. All of that stuff was, because you talked about it earlier, it is. This is a coming-of-age story in many ways for middle-aged men. Not just for the kids. The kids are just, when you gave us the season of kids, it was like, well, here's what it is in reality. But this is unquestionably what we're doing for these grown-ass men.

1:13:08Mallory Rubin:Yes. Yeah. And I guess, you know, not to be like, can Shorzy do this, but not that. Like, I do wonder whether or not a season of this show is functional without, like, a central hockey plot. Like, of these guys, they have against all odds, are going to try this. Obviously, like, the emotional highs of this show are way higher when they are going for it in some way like that. But you could tell me this show is going to go for another 13 seasons like Letterkenny did, and it winds up just being a slice of life of these guys banging around Sudbury without hockey.

1:13:41Chris Ryan:I think it would be harder only because, and I think Letterkenny really works because you can, episode to episode, do anything.

1:13:47Mallory Rubin:Right.

1:13:49Chris Ryan:Shorzy, you really are tied to some forward-moving narrative that is almost always inside of a sports story. Yes. and how can you like i don't know does shorzy work if next season is about shorzy for the most part laura and her son at home they're all like negotiating becoming a nuclear family and it's really about shorzy acclimating to life at bro dude as a commentator well this is what i was

1:14:17Mallory Rubin:kind of nervous about in season four and then i was like oh no they're gonna do these bears you know what i mean like this is amazing what do you think do you think they have to always have Do you think they have to keep coming up with EU all-star teams to play or something? Or start the no-show again?

1:14:30Jason Mantzoukas:I think they will, and that's like the genius of it. Because my heart stopped when I was, like I caught up on the first three seasons before season four. And when we got to the, this is the end of Shorzy part one, I was like panicked. What does that mean? Where are we going from here? And then I remember the first trailer. If memory serves, the first trailer for season four was just tubing.

1:14:54Mallory Rubin:Yeah. And I was like, what is happening?

1:14:58Jason Mantzoukas:But also I can't wait.

1:14:58Mallory Rubin:But that's when I was like, is this going to be Letterkenny? Is this going to be like these guys having funny conversations in and around town?

1:15:04Jason Mantzoukas:The off season and weird Sudbury and like building toward the choice of like all season mounts toward weird Sudbury just to decide not to go because the Blueberry Buddies are more important and that relationship is more substantial. Ultimately, hockey was still the backdrop for all of that. So I don't know that it, especially after a season like this, which is a declaration of a soul bone deep connection to the proposition of hockey. Right. I think that it has to be stitched into the fabric of the show. What exactly does that look like and how do they keep evolving? I think they're going to keep coming up

1:15:37Mallory Rubin:with ways that Hitch, Dolo, Goody playing hockey. Like they've done it in real life. Yeah, those guys have to be there. Like J.J. Sanguinette, as we said,

1:15:44Jason Mantzoukas:is not on the show anymore. J.J., Frankie J.J. is like not on the show anymore. Characters have come in and out of the universe of the show. So I can't imagine Shorzy without Shorzy, Goody, Hitch, and Dolo. That is difficult for me to think about. Or Nat, Zeig, me.

1:15:58Chris Ryan:I was just going to say, I think that's important as well. Because I could see a world in which, I will say, there is a show that works that is a couple of the guys, Nat and Zeig, and the younger generation where the guys are coaching a teen team. Sure. You know, that the sports story maybe isn't for the adults. It's for the younger generation, and the adults are plugged into it.

1:16:29Jason Mantzoukas:Well, that maybe gets back to what you were just saying, like, workshopping the, okay, could it be the new nuclear family with Laura and her son? Like, maybe it's—does his hockey team, the kids' hockey team, become a part of the story at some point? What's interesting is, like, I have also found the Shorzy, Laura Moore—this is the summer I close on Laura Moore thing to be— very genuinely surprising in its longevity and how gripping I found it. because initially my relationship to the core dynamics of the show is that the OTP, the true love story of the show to me is Shorzy and Nat.

1:16:57Chris Ryan:Right.

1:16:58Jason Mantzoukas:Without question.

1:16:59Chris Ryan:Right. Oh, interesting.

1:16:59Jason Mantzoukas:I don't even mean that romantically. I don't mean it's like that is the deepest love.

1:17:05Chris Ryan:They have a fully shared point of view. They are both relentlessly pursuing greatness in hockey.

1:17:14Jason Mantzoukas:Yes, and they can be the most unapologetic and unvarnished version of themselves in front of each other. and there have been so many moments across the five seasons where they're sitting next to each other, they can't look at each other, they're turned, and one of them just gently puts a hand on the other one's back or something where you're like, wait, is this about to change? And then you realize, it's not like I need it to change.

1:17:32Mallory Rubin:They'll play with that relationship too because that moment where you think that he's going to ask Nat to be the coach with him, I was like, holy shit. Iconic. And he's like, no.

1:17:41Chris Ryan:You've never been on the ice. You've never stepped on the ice. I skated my whole life.

1:17:44Mallory Rubin:So the season ends, they have this incredible, and we can talk a little bit about the final episode, but they have this incredible moment where they're playing against the EU All-Stars, this outdoor rink outside of a church. The entire town of Sudbury has come out. It's violent, bloody.

1:18:00Chris Ryan:They've been told, I think one of the best things is they've been told in no uncertain terms.

1:18:04Jason Mantzoukas:No fighting.

1:18:05Chris Ryan:No fighting by the church, the church that owns the rink. If there's fighting, we're going to call the cops and we're going to shut it down. And the minute the whistle is blown to start the game, they drop the gloves and sticks and a gigantic melee breaks out.

1:18:19Mallory Rubin:Yes, and it's a really close game that they wind up losing because the Euros die. But the larger moral victory is won. And we still don't really have a no-show though, right? Like, I mean, so the hockey league itself has collapsed. These guys are all presumably going back to their job. So like, yeah, I mean, going forward, I have no doubt that they'll be able to come up with something really, really entertaining for two hours.

1:18:44Chris Ryan:Oh, absolutely. No question.

1:18:45Mallory Rubin:You know, and I honestly, no matter, like, whatever machine they need to build to make it so that it's like, we need to do this because we need a charity match to save this community center or whatever. Great, because I don't care.

1:18:58Chris Ryan:The mechanics of the sports storyline really just help us move forward and care about stuff. But really what we care about is this show is just a masterpiece of character, barely development. You know what I mean? Like, so many of these characters are inching forward in terms of their emotional development.

1:19:19Jason Mantzoukas:But nonetheless, moving somewhere.

1:19:22Chris Ryan:You know, the scenes where repeatedly they're getting their house in order. Getting a house in order, boys. You know, it's so funny. And all of their shitty relationships. Yeah. And Hitch and his girlfriend. Hitch and Pam. They have the best relationship. Because when Hitch fucked the hockey mom, she got back at him by fucking him. And now they're good. Yeah. So it's the best. And so the idea that they can keep playing with these characters, I think, is very like this is a show that is, to me, always refillable because the characters are just so perfect. And, you know, like, yes, it's all going to come down to a game at some point.

1:20:03Chris Ryan:Sure. But I'm not here for the games.

1:20:06Mallory Rubin:Right. Sure. I mean, and they're also making it six episodes a season almost twice a year at this point. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's pretty, I don't think we'll, I don't think we'll get season six this season's year, maybe. I doubt it. I don't think we will, but. I doubt it. I didn't get a chance to talk to you about Heater Rivalry, really.

1:20:27Jason Mantzoukas:I mean, let's fucking go.

1:20:29Mallory Rubin:And we don't have to go nuts on it, but Heater Rivalry shares.

1:20:33Chris Ryan:Jacob Tierney is like an essential part of Letter Canning. Yes. You know, both on camera and off and has been like a part of that world forever.

1:20:41Mallory Rubin:And the sort of emergence of Tyranny coming out, I am making Heated Rivalry, which is not only a successful adaptation of a wildly beloved piece of fiction, but to make it in such a different way than the way the Kiso shows have been made in the past, which is like incredibly static, incredibly flat. Everything is about like jokes building verbally rather than through psych gags or anything like that is just it was pretty shocking that's the only thing that was shocking about Heter Rivalry I know what you're thinking um what I mean just what did you think of Heter Rivalry as a series and do you ever do you see any connective tissue between the two things um

1:21:22Jason Mantzoukas:I think that they are quite different shows obviously I love them both I thought about getting into

1:21:30Mallory Rubin:exotic positions absolutely about understanding

1:21:33Jason Mantzoukas:who you are and embracing that in full and surrounding yourself with other people who embrace that in full. I thought he had a rivalry. It was wonderful. I mean, I loved the whole season. I thought it really evolved, you know, over the course of the first couple episodes. You're like, this is sexy. This is fun. Third episode, of course, we get the, are we spoiling things? I can speak in generalities. We get, you know, an episode centered around different characters other than the main characters. And it was very shocking, but in an incredibly energizing way where you're like, I don't really totally know what I'm watching, but I'm very invested in this.

1:22:03Jason Mantzoukas:Episode four, I think, is when you realize you're watching just, and episode three, but you're back with Ilya and Shane in episode four, and you're like, we're watching Prestige TV. This is just exceptional. I thought episode five is one of the best episodes of TV of the year, and I thought that the Shane-Ilya conversation where Ilya is speaking in Russian and we're just watching Shane's face was one of the best TV scenes of the year, and in the finale, I was sobbing like a fucking baby the entire time. I loved it.

1:22:26Chris Ryan:I think the thing that's clear about Letterkenny and Shorzy is, and I think this is Jared Kiso's whole thing is I'm interested in excavating small town life and life, the life that are the people, it used to be called Letterkenny problems. And it was all about the problems of the people of Letterkenny, small town problems and how you settle them, usually with fistfights, you know, and that's Letterkenny. If there's fighting in Shorzy, there's a million times more fighting in Letterkenny because Wayne, Jared Kiso's character, is the toughest guy in Letterkenny. And so whenever there's a new tough guy who shows up, he has to come and fight Wayne or they have to go and fight some guy who did something.

1:23:11Chris Ryan:So the number of montage, seven minute long fight scenes in Letterkenny is enormous. It's absolutely crazy. And so to me, heated rivalry is taking all of those small town things and blowing them up yes you know and putting them on a much larger stage and much like everything gets bigger everything becomes it's not it's but still concerning itself with small character things i think that the lesson from the two shows ultimately is like it's just much more interesting to watch tv about characters

1:23:46Mallory Rubin:that aren't easily pinned down yeah you know like you could watch a version of shore z and this kind of goes back to the first episode of the season five where you're like the easy thing to do would have Shorzy bust Jack's balls make fun of him and then be like you know I'll coach you because you don't understand there's so many like logical instead he shows this incredibly tender side there's so many moments in Heed and Rival where you're like I got it I know where this is going I know what this guy is like I know what that guy is like and they show you a completely different side and that goes all the way down to like Ilya's the girl who lives with Ilya.

1:24:23Mallory Rubin:You know what I mean? Like, you know, or like, yeah, like, it's just, there's so many different wrinkles to all these different... Shane's conversation with his mother.

1:24:31Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah.

1:24:31Mallory Rubin:Like, you expect when the parents find out, when Shane's parents find out, you're like, oh, shit, this is going to be it.

1:24:36Chris Ryan:And they're like, oh, okay. Both of them do an incredible job servicing discovery and surprise. Yes. Sure. In ways that you think you know what kind of a story you're inside of. And you're like, oh, that I'm genuinely surprised by that and isn't that especially for people like us who spend all of our time inside of television to be able to be surprised by a thing is very rare or to be like oh that did

1:25:06Mallory Rubin:not happen and for a show to not make the surprise it's entire raison d 'etre to be like you thought it was going to fucking be like this dumbass there's more than one silo spoiler bro

1:25:19Chris Ryan:It's not a rug pull. I think that's such a good point. It's never interested in it being a rug pull or calling attention to it. It's that people are making choices that you're like, oh, of course, that is a choice that I don't think narrative television would always make in this way.

1:25:36Jason Mantzoukas:And, of course, the relationship that each story has to hockey, even though they are both in some way a hockey show, is radically different. Shane and Ilya are the two best players of their generation. Yes. This is not whale shit hockey. This is Montreal and Boston, the top picks in the draft, and they've won Stanley Cups, and they've won MVP.

1:25:55Mallory Rubin:And generationally, like on the other side, you know, like Sid and—

1:25:59Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, yes, exactly. And so then it's like, okay, well, if the rapper that defines my life and my public persona and my earnings and my endorsement deals, if I didn't feel like I could be myself inside of that, what would that mean? their relationship to the sport is different from each other, of course, but certainly very different from all of our Blueberry Bulldogs. So I think we just get way less hockey in heated rivalry. It doesn't function as a sports show quite in the same way that Shorzy does. Obviously, we have some scenes on the ice and some scenes in the locker room, but much more to establish the position that they each hold, their stature inside of the game, and then how that influences a lot of position.

1:26:45Jason Mantzoukas:I mean, when you were saying pinned down earlier, I've been waiting. But here we go. At last.

1:26:50Mallory Rubin:They also share Wolf Parade, which they... This, I felt bad about

1:26:55Jason Mantzoukas:because I spoiled this for you. It's okay. I thought you had finished the season and I texted you and I was like, Wolf Parade back and you're like...

1:27:01Mallory Rubin:I haven't gotten to that one. What the fuck?

1:27:02Jason Mantzoukas:It felt really bad.

1:27:04Mallory Rubin:They both drop Wolf Parade and I couldn't help but wonder Carrie Bradshaw style

1:27:08Jason Mantzoukas:if it was Jared Kiso saying

1:27:11Mallory Rubin:tip of the cat, Jake. And just like that. Yeah. And just like that. A Wolf Crate needle drop. Jumped right way up.

1:27:19Jason Mantzoukas:Was that your favorite needle drop of the season? Obviously he needed rivalry. He'll rivalry it is. The Van Morrison.

1:27:24Mallory Rubin:Van Morrison got me. Oh man. There's nothing better in the world than the amount of Armand Van Helden that they just, like the amount of UK garage and house songs that they're just like, yeah, this is just, we're doing it.

1:27:36Chris Ryan:One of the things that I'm curious when you said, because you like, you binged all three seasons before four is like, I think one of the visual things that you have to get used to with, and it happened in Letterkenny and with Shorzy is for a show that is remarkably short in length per episode, an enormous amount of almost every episode is just a music montage that is either in this season, the strip club, it's the hockey games, it's the fistfights.

1:28:09Mallory Rubin:It is long, long, The celebration of them winning the no-show, I think, is like a full episode, right? It's like of a montage, basically.

1:28:17Chris Ryan:And like full song. You listen to the whole song play out. Oh, yes. In Letterkenny, there are oftentimes fights, which are incredibly choreographed and so satisfying to watch. But you're like, I think I've been watching this fight for four full minutes of this 20-minute episode.

1:28:37Mallory Rubin:I thought I'd noticed it mostly on this season where I was like, there are a couple of Shorzy episodes that are like, there's 12 minutes of acting. Yeah. And the rest of it is like a montage with like a house anthem.

1:28:47Jason Mantzoukas:That is, of course, a difference between the two shows, too. There are a number of wonderful performances in Shorzy, but just the ethos, the energy is so different. Where, you know, you're watching just Kiso do something, I think, kind of God tier and astonishing. A lot of the people in a scene in Shorzy are like people who played hockey well enough to be in Shorzy. are learning how to find that comedic rhythm and across the seasons it's really advanced. Like I watch Heat of Rivalry and I'm like, Conor Story is going to be one of the most famous people alive. You know, Hudson Williams is becoming a sensation for a reason.

1:29:19Jason Mantzoukas:Like, so that, they're very different but I do love this kind of shared thread across them and I, you know, I just, well, what a time to be on the rink.

1:29:27Mallory Rubin:Oh. Watching these beautiful shows. I love the thread that we share of the show. Oh, it makes me so happy. What will we talk about next? I don't know. I mean, like, I could keep going but like, I feel like that's a good place to end. We will hopefully find something new in between now and the next season.

1:29:40Chris Ryan:Oh, if we don't, we're fools. Yeah.

1:29:43Mallory Rubin:Jason Mantzoukas, thank you so much for coming by. Chris, an absolute delight. Mal, just the best.

1:29:48Jason Mantzoukas:Thrill of my life to be here with you. Thanks to Kai.

1:29:50Mallory Rubin:Thanks to Kai. Andy and I will be back on Monday. I think it's a pretty full dance card for Monday because we have some Paramount Warner Brothers Netflix post-game stuff. We have DTF St. Louis. Okay.

1:30:04Chris Ryan:Exciting. incredible I'm all in on this show I can't wait Steve Conrad not what I was expecting the greatest yes Steve Conrad my favorite Patriot Perpetual Grace Limited Ultra City Smith

1:30:16Mallory Rubin:and was the original showrunner on Seven Kingdoms

1:30:19Chris Ryan:yes he was oh that's right he wrote the first adaptation of the Duncan Egg book that's right and I've only seen one episode of DTF St. Louis but I think it's incredible I'm so stoked for it this is the other thing sorry I wanna I'm gonna say this because I said it on this show. I told you about Shorzy. You slept on it. The show that I feel like everybody is sleeping on right now. Is it The Fairies? Is Dark Winds.

1:30:44Mallory Rubin:Oh, fuck, dude. Can I tell you something?

1:30:46Chris Ryan:If I don't understand what is going on, you guys are going to fucking lose it. I know. And the last time this happened,

1:30:53Mallory Rubin:it was Mr. Inbetween. People were just like, what's your fucking problem? It's good. Dark Winds is just the show that I've been like, I just can't abide being 30 hours behind on this. you know, or whatever it is. I understand. But I saw that they were doing a 70s LA episode coming up. And I was like, damn, dude.

1:31:11Chris Ryan:This season has Titus Welliver in it. FYI, Bosh is in the show.

1:31:17Jason Mantzoukas:Bosh I've rise.

1:31:18Chris Ryan:So get involved. But regardless, each of these seasons has been phenomenal. So first season you would start with the first season. Just start with, and honestly, you kind of don't need to. Like each of them is a contained singular story. Each one is one case. Oh, okay. Or a couple of interrelated cases. Okay. It's not like one big. I mean, there is some larger.

1:31:42Jason Mantzoukas:But there's character continuity. There is absolutely character continuity.

1:31:44Chris Ryan:But each, they're based on books. And each one is basically one case that falls into.

1:31:50Mallory Rubin:Have you ever started a show like midway through?

1:31:52Jason Mantzoukas:I would die. Yeah. I would die. The idea of you being like, I'll just jump into Dark Souls season four.

1:31:58Chris Ryan:But I cannot recommend it enough. as not just phenomenal, but consistently phenomenal.

1:32:06Mallory Rubin:Okay. You, do you have a recommendation for things that you don't talk about on House of R that you'd love to get off your chest?

1:32:11Jason Mantzoukas:I think this is a great time to invest in the Baltimore Orioles.

1:32:14Chris Ryan:Oh, boy. God, my Christ. I'm only doing this because I'm looking at my Shorzy notes. Do you feel like... Because I made Shorzy notes.

1:32:20Jason Mantzoukas:This is the year. They're going to win the World Series.

1:32:21Mallory Rubin:All right, I'd like to have you come on maybe for a spring training episode with me and Andy. We can talk about the futility of cheering for baseball teams outside of Los Angeles Dodgers. That would be great.

1:32:29Jason Mantzoukas:Because I will not be rooting for the Dodgers.

1:32:30Mallory Rubin:So Andy and I are going to do DTF St. Louis. We'll probably hit Paradise. I think the Top Chef episode is up on Peacock, apparently.

1:32:37Jason Mantzoukas:Okay. The first episode of the season. You guys talking some Survivor?

1:32:40Mallory Rubin:No.

1:32:40Jason Mantzoukas:Basically, all I think about right now is Survivor season 50. Yes.

1:32:43Chris Ryan:Okay, that's all I think, but that's how I am with Alone.

1:32:47Jason Mantzoukas:That's a thing you've loved for a long time.

1:32:49Mallory Rubin:Is Alone where they get dropped in the middle of nowhere? Yeah. But not naked.

1:32:51Chris Ryan:No. That's naked and afraid. That's naked and afraid. This is like real deal. Like you are alone. There's no camera crew. You are the camera crew. and the last person there wins either half a million dollars or a million dollars and they're out there alone for months. Oh my God. It is. So you're watching people at first figure out how to survive. What's going to be my food source? Where am I going to get water from? I need to build a shelter. Where should that be? And then once enough people have gotten that far and some people have dropped out, you're watching people lose their minds because they are alone for weeks and weeks and weeks at a time.

1:33:27Chris Ryan:it's incredible. Do you think you could

1:33:29Mallory Rubin:do it with the isolation? Oh, yes.

1:33:32Jason Mantzoukas:Yes, you definitely could do that part. That part I got covered.

1:33:36Mallory Rubin:You just couldn't build a fire and stuff like that.

1:33:38Chris Ryan:I would have a lot of trouble with the actual foraging and getting food. Do you bring your glasses?

1:33:45Jason Mantzoukas:You could start a fire with those? You could bring ten items.

1:33:48Chris Ryan:I could start a fire. I could get fires going.

1:33:51Mallory Rubin:Ten packs of cigarettes.

1:33:52Chris Ryan:And then ten packs of Barbors.

1:33:57Jason Mantzoukas:you were a camel guy right

1:33:59Mallory Rubin:I was

1:33:59Jason Mantzoukas:I felt so proud of myself yesterday in this very office our colleague Jack Wilson asked Chris an American Spirits guy and I looked at him and I said camel and he's like are you sure and I said this is a friendship test and I feel sure

1:34:11Mallory Rubin:it was Winston's very you know just a guy came into a bar I was working at and he was like do you sell cigarettes and we said no and he was like I work for Winston next time somebody asks you that will you give them a free complimentary pack and we said absolutely Mr. Winston

1:34:26Jason Mantzoukas:sounds like a madman I took all those cigarettes home and smoked them.

1:34:29Mallory Rubin:And then I became addicted to cigarettes and then moved into camels because I was dating a girl who smoked camels. Oh, okay.

1:34:37Jason Mantzoukas:All of this tracks for me. Wow. All of it. Wow.

1:34:39Mallory Rubin:Yeah, and then I never stopped. And then I stopped. Now I still have nicotine problems.

1:34:43Jason Mantzoukas:Yeah, okay. Were you ever a smoker? I have literally never had a cigarette in my life. But you know what I've loved? A cigar. I've loved a cigar over the years. I've loved a cigar over the years.

1:34:54Mallory Rubin:I think if you started smoking, it would be an incredible wrinkle for you.

1:34:59Jason Mantzoukas:I don't know if the lungs can do it, man.

1:35:01Chris Ryan:It would be really funny if you just became not just a smoker, but like an in-studio smoker.

1:35:06Mallory Rubin:And like Dennis Leary style.

1:35:08Chris Ryan:People knew that like, oh, if you're going to guest on House of R, like now he's going to smoke throughout.

1:35:13Jason Mantzoukas:Well, what if I had like a pipe? I used to like to smoke pipe.

1:35:17Mallory Rubin:Who are the people in Hollywood who have indoor smoking rights?

1:35:22Chris Ryan:Sean Penn. DiCaprio vapes everywhere right sure Sean Penn I think can smoke literally like Sean Penn lit up at like the Globes yeah and that's it Barack Obama he could

1:35:35Mallory Rubin:but even Barack would step outside

1:35:37Chris Ryan:yeah I guess there's all those shots of him like ah god you're right

1:35:40Jason Mantzoukas:what would my brand be well like of cigarettes Indian Creek

1:35:45Mallory Rubin:like um Kate from Sicario oh

1:35:48Chris Ryan:shit Sicario on your mind not like a not like a Virginia Slim It's not like a skinny cigarette.

1:35:54Mallory Rubin:That would be interesting.

1:35:56Chris Ryan:I think Johnny Depp gets to smoke those gross... Like cloves or whatever he smokes? Yeah, those gross cigarettes he smokes. Inside, though? Yeah.

1:36:05Mallory Rubin:Have you ever been on set with somebody who smoked cigarettes while on set? Oh, wow.

1:36:10Chris Ryan:Probably? I'm trying to think. I did shoot something with Johnny Depp, and he was smoking constantly. And it was disgusting. But I'm trying to think of anybody who was like... Like in a way that was like interruptive to the process.

1:36:27Mallory Rubin:Well, it's not even interruptive as much as it's just such a flex.

1:36:29Jason Mantzoukas:It's like, you find it aspirational. I mean, this is one of your great hottest take episodes. I've smoked indoors.

1:36:33Mallory Rubin:It ruins the indoors.

1:36:34Chris Ryan:Do you have an age where you're like at eight, when I turn 70, I'm going to start smoking all the time. Yes.

1:36:41Mallory Rubin:And I'll tell you what, it's not going to be smoking that I get into. Yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. You're going black tar. Black tar heroin. Like injecting. Straight. Straight to the vein, baby.

1:36:51Jason Mantzoukas:What's the age?

1:36:54Mallory Rubin:No comment. As you get older, that age. Let's see how the world works out. You know what I mean? If it feels like imminent doom is there, I might just start being on ketamine while I'm on podcasts all the time. I'm just going to stick with edibles, I think. But you do you, man. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you to Kaya. Thanks for inviting me. Thank you to Kaya. See you guys on Monday. Oh, we'll also have some industry mailbag questions. Oh, hell yeah. Talk to you soon.

1:37:21.