One Award After Another: Oscars Recap. Plus, ‘Paradise’ Season 2, Episodes 4-6.

20:06Because I think if they had been maybe more traditional Hollywood fare, like your King's Speech kind of thing, like a green book or whatever, we would have just atomized it. I think what happened last night, and we can get into the actual awards now, is a pretty decent and fair... It's one battle after another's night. It won six awards. Yep. But I feel like the broadcast almost allowed it to be a co-winner night of Sinners in One Battle. It did. Because I think... I think that's right. You mentioned Autumn Durali-Archipa's win and Coogler's win. In both of those, they pulled the Tom Cruise, Everybody's Stand.

20:51Yep. Autumn had all the women in the audience stand. It was awesome. Kugler had everybody who worked on Sinner's stand. And I thought it was like a good recognition. I always remember that Pulp Fiction win for screenplay when Tarantino was like, I think this is going to be the only thing I win tonight. Yep. And I think Kugler used original screenplay to be like, this is probably it. So let me do the real big. I thought that was great. Yeah. And I thought MBJ winning was really cool. it probably is not my favorite of the performances that were nominated I think mine would probably be Leo or Wagamora but I also like Chalamet I mean it was a really really really good category I liked Ethan Hawke a lot in Blue Moon so I thought each film got its moments and it was almost like for all the like weird like who voted for what and the what do they call it when the ballots when you can ranked choice ballot or because people get second place votes or whatever.

21:49Right.

21:49Andy Greenwald:Like New York City mayoral elections. It almost seemed like preordained where they were like, we're going to give Centumel a value, it's moment. It shook out that way. We're going to give Amy Madigan a moment. We're going to give sinners a couple of moments, but OBAA is going to kind of be... I think that not to... First of all, I wouldn't presume to be Sean Fentasy here. Did you see his costume work last night? I did. It was really impressive. I want more of that from him. He's been a leading man up till now, but I think it's time to have a character actor bent. Oh, you think Sean should step back from the spotlight?

22:19No, I just think he should

22:20Andy Greenwald:get a little weirder, you know? I think that's really good. Sean's pretty weird. I know, but his on the... He didn't get invited to interview Steven Spielberg last week. Because he's just a freak. Because he's a fucking freak show, okay? That's not how Steven gets down. Despite his belief in extraterrestrial life on the planet right now. I don't presume to be even worthy of a sixth chair on the big picture, but I will say from my vantage point a a really remarkably good year for movies and a very strong year for the nominees um you mentioned the five best actor nominees all of whom were deserving of recognition if not an award and jesse plemons didn't even make the cut and that that may have been my favorite performance of the year definitely top three on your joint yeah damn he's unreal in that movie he's he's a freak show he's great um but if you look if you think about sinners one battle after another secret agent sentimental value.

23:13Andy Greenwald:I mean, I think these are, and Marty Supreme, I think these are like significant cinematic achievements that will last longer than this year or last longer than The King's Speech. And particularly Sinners and One Battle After Another. I know One Battle After Another is a loose adaptation of Thomas Pinchon's Vineland. Still reeling. I know. I was waiting for it too. I was like doing this. Because you have to assume like we talked about this. Yeah, he got it right. He knows. He knows him. How Pinchon. Nope. I was doing the Simpsons meme. Say it. Say the name. When you got up there, I knew he was going to get it right.

23:46Andy Greenwald:These movies are, so it is an adaptation, but I think they're both wildly original cinematic expressions and visions. And they are both very much of this moment and of this year. And I think will remind us of the time in which they were released in a way that a lot of the last five, six, seven, 10 winners won't. I think that's very, I think that's exciting. I think that's good for the medium in the same way that whether or not he was our favorite performance of the year or whether or not you and I would ever fucking see Hamnet. I saw Hamnet. Look at you. Yeah. Yeah. I did my work. Wow. Yeah. I was going to reach across the aisle there and be like, we stand in blockade of this.

24:26No.

24:26Andy Greenwald:That's because we have different opinions about dead kids in movies. I love them. I know. I know. Why did I sound like Lockjaw? I love them. You like dead kids? We've all got our quirks. We're at war. We can express our differences in ways that don't shame each other, okay? That would be such a fucking amazing move fight if you just started being like, I'm sorry, we're at war. That's why I didn't watch Hamnet. If I just started? This is my get-out-of-everything free card for the next 1 to 16 years, I guess? I don't know. No Hamnet shade. I just didn't really— There was never a moment where I was going to fire this up.

25:05Andy Greenwald:What I was trying to say is, Michael B. Jordan and Jesse Buckley are emerging stars and who are stars who have charisma and also acting chops. And that's also very cool to see. It is, I know this is sort of a fool's exercise to look back on past Oscar campaigns where, you know, we sit here the next day and everyone talks about what it means and the significance and this was elevated over others. But it is kind of shocking to run back 10 years. Birdman won Best Picture. When's the last time you fired that up? No, I have not. That has not made the rewatchables. Spotlight? Yeah, you know, I've...

25:40Andy Greenwald:I know. Spotlight and moonlight. Taking a couple of runs around the newsroom with that one. The lights one for a couple of years. And then we get into the shape of water and green book. Yeah. That was, that's a real, like I was talking last night with somebody about, you know, I have not always been an Oscars fan. Right. There's like a whole run there, which I'll, I'll describe as late period Eastwood superiority, you know, like the, the million dollar baby kind of run there where I was just like, oh, the Oscars are on tonight. You know, like, it was at that level. Did you have other plans? Yeah, just being like, it's Sunday night in New York City, let's go.

26:18Andy Greenwald:It's Selection Sunday. Exactly. That's all I care about. Delonte West and Tamir Nelson, St. Joe's team. One seed, baby. Sorry, Clint. So, I mean, it's not always been that, and Green Book and Shape of Water were definitely like... I mean, that's not even... We didn't even say Nomadland, Koda, and everything everywhere all at once. Yeah, there was COVID was in there. Yeah. Not COVID. COVID didn't win any Oscars. But I mean, there was the COVID Oscars, the Soderbergh Union Station Oscars, you know. You don't think COVID won anything? The COVID shutout? I think COVID arguably won the decade so far in terms of being a story.

26:56That's right.

26:58Andy Greenwald:Anyway, yeah. So what other specific ones should we talk about? I wonder whether or not the scale or the proportions of OBAA and Sinners would have felt differently if PET had been there. because really it was the editing, casting, OBAA, and then it was PTA for the most part speaking on behalf of the film. It was, you know, if Sean Penn had been there for better or for worse because he might have gone up there and been like incredibly gregarious and like, you know, humble and he's not humble. Or he might have gotten up there. Just with a dart in his hand and just let it rip. Or, and just been, or been like, let's, I don't know if you guys have heard, there's war happening.

27:41Andy Greenwald:Yeah. You know? That's yet another thing he and I have in common. Which I think really only Bardem directly referenced. Yeah, there was a lot of, I thought, clever and delicate dancing around it, and everyone knew what we were talking about without talking about it. I think the Sean Penn thing is tough because the Oscars rarely deliver merit at the right time. and it's you know it's the multiple winners there are some that you can quibble with but others especially people like Sean Penn who have won over decades it's like you're not taking maybe you take away the one that Bill Murray should have won for Lost in Translation the Mystic River one but otherwise like Lockjaw is one of the most incredible cinematic creations of the last however many years he deserves awards and recognition for it but it's a kind of a bummer that he won because he's won before because he wasn't even there and you don't even get the speech and because I had Stellan in my Oscar pool, just like Vladimir Zelensky.

28:37Andy Greenwald:Did you have an Oscar pool? No. Did you want Stellan Skarsgård to win? I did just because that's my favorite movie of the year and I think he's incredible. I should own up to the fact that I rarely, I don't know if I've ever made predictions on this podcast, but I did sit here and say that I thought Sinners was going to have a late surge and sweep and that did not happen. It didn't. You know I'm all about accountability. So yeah, the Sean Penn thing was kind of a bummer, I guess in that case. But otherwise, oh, the casting I wanted to talk about. Only because it's funny that in its first year, and there's nothing wrong with the casting of One Battle After Another.

29:13Andy Greenwald:It's the best picture of the year, according to many, including the Academy. Ergo, it was pretty well cast. But I feel like that award, the spirit of that award was invented for movies like Marty Supreme and Secret Agent. Both of whom were nominated. I know what you mean. I will say that I do feel like when Bluto comes to the door in one battle after another and he's just like are you cool and Bluto's just like yeah like finding that kid like they found people that no it's incredibly cast but I know what you mean where it's just like the faces in Marty Supreme are like how the hell did you do that and so much of it and obviously a lot of this comes from Josh Safdie himself but like many many if not most of the parts in that movie are played by non-professional actors and that ability to like identify someone who can deliver this specific brief on camera is really, really challenging.

30:07Andy Greenwald:And Secret Agent, which we haven't talked much about, but I know we both really liked. For sure. Just stunning production design and how every single person looks unique and memorable and period. And, you know, it is as transporting as the scenery and the vibe. Just the way that they look. It's just incredible. um but uh yeah i i i always like when screenplay awards are kind of like shadow they're the real best pictures yeah but this time it kind of it just tracks so for screenplay you would have was treer nominated for screenplay was for original um but i thought like you said like he didn't adapt that from world war ii what's that he wasn't adapted from world war ii in some ways or from our aren't all screenplays in a way yeah um speaking of from world war ii i did like when paradise star sterling k brown did the casablanca bit with conan yes and was like was that the hitler one but that was good do you think it was a meta cruel joke commentary on the state of our business that the screenplay awards were given by downey and chris evans just like we'll is finding posting their way through an absolutely putrid non-joke bit promoting an Avengers movie.

31:21Andy Greenwald:There were a couple of tough bits. That was tough. Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem. I think that you would never go wrong with Reverence. If you just have people come out who are like, I am here because of great screenplays. Here are some of my favorites. Here are some of my favorite lines. Whatever. Let's get into it. I just think that they overcook the pie by 10 degrees and 10 minutes almost every time. And there's always going to be some person who comes out and is like, what the fuck are we announcing tonight? And it's just like, damn it, dude, you're Robert Downey Jr. Like, you're pretty much Jack Nicholson.

31:58Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Like, you're the closest thing we have. You should be giving out best picture. You should be the mayor of this. But it doesn't seem like they can kind of rely on you to just be like, read the fucking prompter to some extent. He has been, I would say, encouraged to do this and has been enriched beyond measure. and so it would be hard to stop him now. I was just for a second there. I forgot and I was like, what's that guy up to now? I was like, oh yeah. Who, Bob? Bobby Downs, yeah. Dr. Doom, man. We would be remiss if we didn't talk about the fact that the, in many ways, the most memorable and the most crafted and the most intentional part of a show ostensibly celebrating the living art of cinema was the In Memoriam segment.

32:41Andy Greenwald:And it was, honestly, it was a sledgehammer is devastating. Yeah. I thought to watch and, um, pretty remarkable. Um, Babs. Well, I want to get to that. We got to get to that. I thought that the, the Rob Reiner thing was really, really moving. And that was expected, but I couldn't believe the amount of people that showed up for him. Sure. Like to get all these people, some of whom like John Cusack doesn't do events. He doesn't come to Los Angeles, as far as I could tell. He just sort of hangs out in Chicago and has strong opinions about stuff. He, which by the way, sounds like a podcaster and a sick gig.

33:23Andy Greenwald:He flew out just to stand on stage for a second, you know, to be a part of this. I thought that was as much a testament to someone's ability to be a good person as well as a good artist as anything else you could ever see in an award show like this. I really liked the way it was designed. So it went from music. Was it the Princess Bride music they were playing? There was music from a Rob Reiner movie that went into the images and the montage of people. And then they paused for Diane Keaton, but in a very classy way with Rachel McAdams also made it about Claudia Cardinale and Diane Ladd. and I thought that was incredibly moving, and it's just like it, I know this is one of the tolls of getting older when people who are always there for you artistically and just like in the crowd of these events, they start showing up on the screen instead of in the seats, and that's just where we're headed as humans, but it really hit hard this year, and then of course it had to, I think, end with Redford, and I thought it was, I guess I got the sense that he would have enjoyed having Babs do it.

34:32Andy Greenwald:I think that a hallmark of Babs is it's going to be about Babs. Sure. So I had that kind of break screeched a little bit for me in terms of like this beautiful swelling moment that the whole show was built around. And then she sang. Speaking of beautiful screeching moments that brought the whole show to a halt, yes. You know, I got to say, I don't really have an opinion about her music. That's where you draw the line. Your entire career is having takes. it's a musical performer I have zero relationship with and I feel weird about that you know what I mean like there are transformers that I know more about than Barbra Streisand's discography name your top three I mean I've always been a Megatron guy I just think it's a cool name and I know and you like his world view is that you like his politics it's a cool name Megatron is the fucking sickest name.

35:28Andy Greenwald:It is. It is. Yeah. And you know what? Here's another thing. Just a little fun side note. Among the many reasons why I'm never quitting Facebook is one of the stories that was given to me randomly, almost as if it was predicting this exchange, was it was like, happy birthday to Marvel editor Bob Budiansky, who on this day in 1982 named Megatron. And then bestow that onto the greatest wide receiver of my lifetime, Calvin Johnson. Correct. and received, I would imagine, nothing for it. But, you know. You know what you were talking about? This is not germane to the Oscars. You know how you're like, oh, when you start seeing people in memoriam that you've grown up with?

36:07I am now realizing that the Instagram montages of like, you know who was a problem? Julio Jones. Yeah. Those guys, their careers have happened while I've been watching football.

36:20Andy Greenwald:No, their careers have happened since you moved to Los Angeles. Yeah. Their careers have happened since you started The Ringer. No, like, and they also now are really, what's really big is showing early 21st century lineup announcements from tournament games. Oh. And so, like, I watch, like, DeJuan Blair's pit team. And I'm like, damn, I witnessed the entirety of DeJuan Blair's career. Like, in my 30s. We should, there should be. You know, like, you know, these, the projects where they go to interview survivors and they're like, we need to record your memories before this generation passes so future generations will know what horrific war crimes were like.

37:02Andy Greenwald:Someone should come to your house and be like, Chris, Chris, tell us about D 'Juan Blair's hit years. And I'd be like, D 'Juan Blair was a problem. This is a beautiful take because you actually have no problem here. Okay, so Megatron was number one or should we move on? Let's go back to Barbra Streisand and the beautiful tribute they paid to the people's lives and work. What about Shockwave? He had little cassettes that played in him. Oh, he was cool. Was he racist? Well, he had some problematic tweets. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But you have to think about it with a lot of these Transformers. I just couldn't remember if Shockwave was like, hey, brother, let's listen to rap.

37:38Keep going. Keep going. Do you know what I mean? It was like an 80s cartoon Radio Raheem thing.

37:45Andy Greenwald:First of all, you have to understand that in the 80s, the culture was different. You know what I mean? I was there. toys you and DeJuan Blair wasn't even born yet and you were there oh I see what you mean like like the commercials and things were like trying right yeah I don't think that was racist that Shockwave was trying to I think see again this is the problem with the modern mindset with like these these like Gen Z types the problem with Shockwave is he was trying to enslave the human race on behalf of the Decepticons I don't really I'm sorry it was an appropriation wasn't the problem I'm not the asshole that he didn't acknowledge who originally owned the land he was standing on.

38:21Andy Greenwald:Like the problem was what he was actually doing in the moment. All right, I'm going to let you lay out about K-pop. I'm very happy for K-pop Demon Hunter's success. This is like a hostage video. Is there a gun to your head? No. Okay. I think if you're going to basically hold the entire awards show hostage to see these folks perform Golden, is that the name of the song? You know that's the name of the song. Is it? Yeah. and then and then you're it's inevitable that they're gonna win the award for best song to cut that dude off just it's criminal it's like like you're is there anyone directing the show is there anyone who could just be like don't start the band like let this guy talk there's seven people on stage yes obviously she's gonna do the big speech but like come on it's it was very very cruel and it's also not their fault that the show was running along up to that point.

39:17Andy Greenwald:Right. And they decided to just bring the hammer down on him. Right. And that's when you start thinking like, oh, they have time for all these other bits, but they don't have time for this. Yeah, I felt bad. But I don't have anything to add other than like, it is a pretty remarkable success story for a movie that Sony was, it's not that it was ever problematic, but Sony wasn't sure what to do with it or what its upside was. So they offloaded it to Netflix and it became the biggest movie in the history of Netflix. And such a big movie and such a surprise that it took Netflix almost a full calendar year to get the deals done for there to be a sequel.

39:49Andy Greenwald:That just got announced last week. Which means the sequel won't come out for... Years. Four, five years. And then all those kids who've grown up on K-pop Demon Hunters, they're going to be in their 20s. God. And they will never even have heard of DuJuan Blair. No, we'll do the work. We'll make sure they know. You'll do the work for the next generation. Also, that gives you a four or five year window to watch K-pop Demon Hunters. That's true. That's true. Any other awards that you wanted to hit? Do you remember ever seeing a tie? I read this morning that it has happened before. It's happened a couple of times.

40:24I don't know why he didn't announce and these are the other people that also...

40:30Andy Greenwald:Drama, drama. For best short? I agree. There wasn't a ton of drama there. Can you imagine if they tried to pull that with like actor? And they were like, but first Michael B. Jordan will accept his award. Yeah, but then they should have kept the other people on screen the whole time just watching them sweat. Just even hawk the entire time. I think that would have been excellent. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about, an outcast striving to make their own way in the world.

41:01And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day. And don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then. Because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn more at VW.com.

41:20Andy Greenwald:I guess the only other thing to discuss is Paul Thomas Anderson, a enormously important figure for our adult film-going lives. Didn't just get his flowers, he got the whole bouquet. Yeah. That was exciting. And also, like I sort of alluded to this a moment ago, kind of rare to see. I was thinking about how David Lynch got an honorary one. You think about how Tarantino got... Two screenplays. Screenplay awards. And obviously has directed actors into Oscars in the past. But for him to have this... I mean, his career is still very much ongoing, but this career-capping moment with such an unambiguous triumph, winning writing, directing, and picture, and being relatively in his prime to accept it all and reflect on it, I thought that was really special.

42:07When he won Adapted Screenplay and got up on stage and he said, you make a guy work pretty hard to get one of these, I thought that that was in and of itself like a pretty good advertisement for what it means. You know, like you can be too cool for school and you can be like, I'm not going, or you could be like, it doesn't really matter who remembers these things. But I think in the moment and for the people who have put so much blood, sweat and tears into making films and sometimes not under like, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson's movies are often kind of supported by like the luminaries who decide to be in them.

42:39Yes. But like are not necessarily commercial gambits up until a point. Movies? It was pretty cool. As a longtime fan of his work, it was pretty amazing.

42:49Andy Greenwald:Movies and Oscars and movie makers and Oscars is a different relationship than something like TV creators and the Emmys. Like, Oscars have always had, deservedly so, this patina of importance and reverence and history. And you can't really be too cool for school with that. Like, all of these people in that room, no matter what type of movie they make, whether it's weapons or a short or the type of movies that were inspiring PTA to do the work that he does, they watch the Oscars and they revere movies that have won them in the past. And so to actually have that moment, I think it would be impossible for it not to feel like a dream or an incredible capstone.

43:29Andy Greenwald:When he was up on stage for the second or third time, I was still thinking about Andy Jurgensen who won editing for One Battle After Another. Yes. And I thought his speech was really, really beautiful because he said his thank yous. Then he thanked his aunt, who he said was an archivist at the Academy and was the person who taught him about movies and showed him movies and gave him this library and this sense of history and artistry. And anytime you can do that, especially in an award show where you can connect time through people who have done the work in different ways and different, you know, but all in pursuit of the same kind of artistic joy and celebration, it's really moving and meaningful.

44:09He talked about one battle after another in a way today, and I'm sure he's done this in other interviews, and I'm in no way telling him how to speak about his own work. But I was almost a little bit frustrated by the fact that he put a little bit of a bow on the movie. It was like, this movie is about our failures as a generation to leave the world in a better place, and the hope that the next generation... And I get that. And maybe, maybe this is somewhat colored by reading Vineland and taking a much different message from Vineland.

44:46Andy Greenwald:Yeah. But I kind of wanted him to be like, it's not up to me or it's not my responsibility to explain one battle after another to people so that they feel good about voting for it. Do you know what I mean? Totally. And there's a case to be made that it's like really the last 10 minutes of one battle after another that like really thread the needle on that. That idea of like, it's American Girl. It's about her. It's about this. And he said that as well, which is not necessarily my takeaway. Yeah. I think that's a very smart point to make. And it goes back to our criticism of the long award season.

45:27Andy Greenwald:because one of the things that the long award season does is it just leeches away the electricity and the energy and the enthusiasm and the chance of unpredictability and surprise, not just about the awards, but about how the people who have been campaigning for them and giving speeches and thanking talk about them. It reduces them into, this is a movie about hope for the future, when in fact what I think makes it worthy of the Best Picture Oscar is how riotously messy it is at times and how parts of that movie don't work, but then you just keep going to the next part and you're completely, you're being driven over that very, very bumpy road by a guy who knows where he's going.

46:08Andy Greenwald:Sure. And you're excited to be in the car. I totally agree with that. I mean, I think that said, we joked about it a lot over the last few months when and if I saw a movie to talk about it with you, but the hashtag girl dad thing in a lot of these movies is relevant and interesting that it is a lot of filmmakers at a certain point in their life wrestling with the world as it is and what it means to try and have hope for it. Like what Conan said, would try it for the next generations. And that's sentimental value. That's Marty Supreme. That's one battle after another. That actually is Secret Agent 2, even though it is very much about a specific moment in the past.

46:45Andy Greenwald:But it has that same sort of generational trauma and what we owe to people and how we keep going. Who, Wagner? Oh, in the movie. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. That's why I didn't initially name it. I was deeply less interested or moved by it in terms of its hope for the future. I find all that stuff kind of interesting. And when you said what PTA talked about, when he thought there was a chance that was his only speech, the first one. So he talked about his kids. I thought Coogler was very aware that, like, odds are this is the last one I win tonight. So I'm going to go up and I'm going to do the whole thing.

47:17I'm going to say sorry for being a wave to my kids and all that stuff.

47:21Andy Greenwald:But PTA also thanked his kids, I believe, the first time he went up. And I thought Joachim Trier, you know, he ended with the Baldwin quote about it's the responsibility of adults to care for all children. Whether they know, whether they root for Megatron or whether they root for DeJuan Williams or whomever. DeJuan Blair. DeJuan, oh, sorry. Yeah, come on. This is power forward for Pitt. Was he the one who didn't have knee cartilage anymore? Who am I thinking of? The guy that the Spurs drafted. I think that was DeJuan Blair. I think it was too. I just want you to know that I saw his medicals and they scared me off.

47:54Andy Greenwald:but shout out to R.C. Buford and Coach Pop for seeing past that and seeing what you saw you know it's your responsibility to parent these kids too there's intangibles there are you can't find them on a scan there are it was a I mean it was cool and I would imagine as a cinephile and you know rewatchables guy that like when PTA was like here's the lineup from 1975 and it was One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest Barry Lyndon Dog Day Afternoon Jaws in Nashville yeah that's we used to be a society yeah and I also think that people will watch the movies from this year, hopefully long into the future, including a bunch of movies that didn't get recognition from this year.

48:29And I do think that having 10 nominees is at once, I think, deflating for the eight that really have no shot. But it is also good to keep those movies in circulation, to have other nominees, maybe the frontrunners say like, boy, I'm such a huge fan of Secret Agent. Boy, I'm such a huge fan of it was just an accident, whatever, you know what I mean? Talking about even F1 and just keeping those movies in circulation. This actually leads into my last question, which is, you have a big night for OBAA, big night for Sinners, a nice award for Weapons, all Warner Brothers movies. Yeah. Don't believe David Ellison was in attendance.

49:18Andy Greenwald:He was in Ukraine with John Penn. On the other side. On the other side. Damn. Fuck, it's so fast though. You're not going to be able to answer this because time will tell. Yeah. Do you walk out of here, see we can make these original stories, they can be box office, successful box office movies, regardless of the reporting about what their fucking budgets were. $200 million,$400 million, like whatever it is, these movies made in domestic box office is really good. Marty Supreme, I think, made$100 million. These original films are finding an audience. there is research to suggest that a younger generation of people are enjoying going to the movies yes I do think we are not exiting but in some kind of twilight of the over IP franchise period of storytelling in Hollywood but do you do you do you leap out of this Oscars into a great unknown of like is there going to be Hollywood in three years no or are you like they should look at this and be like, yeah, more of that.

50:21Andy Greenwald:I... Let Mike and Pam cook. Truly, though. I mean, again, this is not... I'm not... We're not the people that, like, really do the deep forensic dive as to why Mike and Pam at Warner Brothers had this absolutely generational run over the course of this year when their jobs were very much in jeopardy. But you could look at the fact that they felt either empowered or desperate enough or just, you know, fearless enough to take... you see, they're not risky swings. They were considered swings. Do you know what I mean? Like the sinners, like Ryan Coogler developed sinners, this is from what I understand, and took it to market and was like, here are my terms to make this movie with you.

51:02Andy Greenwald:And Warner Brothers said, we accept, even though the terms were very filmmaker-friendly. President-breaking. President-breaking. He owns the print, basically, right? In 25 years, yeah. The copyright will revert to him. And that was a deal that they had to be willing to take. PTA is beloved by people who look exactly like us and that hasn't always translated into enormous box office success. And this was always going to be the most expensive movie of his career. So the play for this movie had to be what happened last night. That was the path to get this movie to being not just a profitability, but to making it quote unquote worth it.

51:37Andy Greenwald:Got it done. And the weapons thing is, you know, taking a swing on a cheaper movie, but someone who you believe in who can deliver in a genre that tends to overperform at the box office. I think that the difference between that and what other studios do, which is just either blind IP chasing or making swings, but kind of thoughtless ones. Like I don't even see the path or I don't even understand the road that I'm trying to put this movie on. Not all movies, especially now, this is always the case, but there isn't just, we're so far removed from that. Well, we'll start at small in the Midwest and we'll slowly platform it out.

52:16Andy Greenwald:Like every movie is going to have a unique path towards finding its audience, but there are paths. Yeah. And I think that's kind of exciting and hopeful. And the scariest thing about it isn't that the people who are at Paramount, who have taken over Paramount, who might be taking over Warner Brothers, they're going to be smart, thoughtful, film-loving, film-educated people working and making those decisions there as well. There's no question about that. But the company, the combined company, is going to be so massively in debt that will they be able to shout out over everyone else saying the only thing we can bank on as a path to profitability is...

52:58Megatron the movie.

53:01Andy Greenwald:Megatron's... No, Megatron at Hogwarts. The trilogy. You know what I mean? Like, that's trickier. When Shockwave came to Hogwarts, introduced them all to rap. First of all, I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but I think everybody knows muggle technology doesn't work at Hogwarts. You couldn't bring a radio. It just wouldn't work, you know? Oh, it's like an EMP went off? It's like an EMP, but the M stands for magic. Should we get to paradise then? Do you have any other questions or do you want to wait for next year? Oh, wait. Oh, wait. Why? Did you plan on talking about Harry Potter next year? I plan on talking about it today, but I guess you want to move along.

53:35Thank you, Oscars.

53:36Andy Greenwald:Thank you, Oscars. Listen to Sean and Amanda talk about it too. Absolutely. That part of today's episode was brought to you by Volkswagen. in a lot of these films, what makes them so great is seeing a character who is driven to achieve what they want. And you can do the same. Grab the wheel. Be the protagonist you've always wanted to be in your own life. Learn more at VW.com. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Peaky Blinders is, hands down, one of the most iconic series of all time. And the gangsters are back in Netflix's new film, Peaky Blinders, The Immortal Man. Tommy Shelby, played by the Academy Award winning Killian Murphy, of course, must face his own demons and choose whether to confront his legacy or burn it to the ground.

54:18I watched the movie and let me tell you, it's just fascinating to watch Killian on the other side of the Oppenheimer journey that he's been on becoming one of our great actors. I mean, he already was one of our great actors, but to become one of the major movie stars in Hollywood, this is perhaps his signature role, his iconic role. He brings like an even more haunted, weathered quality to it. And he's paired off with Barry Keoghan, who's just extraordinary in this and brings this youthful vigor and energy that the story greatly benefits from. Peaky Blinders, The Immortal Man is in select theaters March 6th and on Netflix March 20th, rated R.

54:50This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. One of the most useful things in my life lately has been my Apple Card. Great for game nights, vacations, just life in general. And applying was so easy and quick. You can apply, see your credit limit offer. And if approved, you can start using your card in minutes. Do it while watching a basketball game. You can start making purchases with Apple Pay before halftime even rolls around. I also love how I can get up to 3 % daily cash back on every purchase. That's more daily cash to use for game tickets. I feel like I scored big time when I started using Apple Card.

55:23Apply in the wallet app on your iPhone, start using it right away with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA Salt Lake City Branch, terms and more at applecard.com. This episode is brought to you by Viore. Look, I'm not a big, let's hype up, workout clothes guy, but Viore, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Viore. Sunday performance joggers that they have, it's made with four-way performance stretch fabric. One of the most comfortable things you own.

55:53You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to viore.com slash Simmons and you get 20 % off your first purchase with Viore. V-U-O-R-I.com slash Simmons. Enjoy free shipping on all US orders over$75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Let's talk a little bit about Paradise. I have to admit, I thought that the newest episode of Paradise went up tonight at 9 p.m. Tonight being Monday. Tonight being Monday. So I'm sorry for being slightly unprepared. Although, and you know what the problem with Paradise is like you could think you have a handle on it.

56:33But goddammit, if the last five minutes, those episodes, they twisted up. Bit of a twist. Um, so we're going to talk a little bit about episode four, five, and I guess we could talk a little bit about six, right? Because that's Jane.

56:47Andy Greenwald:That's Jane. Let's talk a little bit about, and here's the thing about Paradise. If you're not quote unquote up to date, it's just really hard to talk about this show without spoiling certain things. Or sounding insane. Or sounding completely out of your mind. So let's say up front, spoilers. Yeah. And feel free to spoil Jane. I think it's okay. That's fine. Okay. Thank you. spoilers through last night's episode of Paradise but we're gonna be focusing mostly on four and five I just have to Kai are you okay if I spoil Jane the sixth episode of the second season of Paradise is that Shailene Woodley's character no no she's Annie no okay then clearly it's fine okay we're gonna spoil that too though I just like to think about everyone else in the room um okay spoilers spoilers spoilers let's start with R.I.P.

57:32Annie

57:33Andy Greenwald:yes Shailene Woodley here for a bad time not a long time Kind of a little bit of an extended Kyle Chandler vacation on this show. For folks who don't know what I'm referring to. You're spoiling lanterns. No, I'm spoiling another show. Friday Night Lights. Where a big time actor is like, oh shit, Shailene Woodley's in this movie. Is it Shailene or Shailene? I've never said it out loud before. Shailene. Shailene. That's right. This is why we need Kaia's voice in our ears. Or you just could listen to me because I said Shailene. It's Barry Keoghan. She shows up on this show and I'm like, cool. Maybe this is like what Paradise will do is as it goes and gets bigger and bigger, it will have, you know, guest star of the season join and perhaps they will stick around or perhaps not.

58:23Shaylin Woodley's on this show for two episodes. Graceland, the first episode. And then the fourth episode where she, you know, hangs out with Xavier.

58:32Andy Greenwald:She's in the other episodes, but they are briefly. like at the end of two the Xavier plot line and the Annie plot line I mean we mean it's showcase showcase her story yeah okay I'll allow it they shot her out they like they I'm sure they did that and forgive me it's just that we're at war so I want to get all the details right you know it's just like maybe at a less yeah partisan time we could just gloss over details what if then my response would be like um maybe you as a podcaster yes should support me yes as the secretary of podcast. Oh, I think that would be great. I like it. Have you seen his press conferences?

59:10Andy Greenwald:They're great. He's out of his fucking mind. Yeah. Yeah. Who, who could have predicted that? Some people just wilt under pressure. Um, what's I saying? She has, is no longer with, with, with us because she dies at the end of the fourth episode. Yeah. Uh, but what a run. And I thought she brought something how do I say this nicely sometimes when I'm watching paradise there are people on paradise where I'm like never seen this person before they seem like a TV actor yeah and then Shailene Woodley is like kind of more of a star you know what I mean like I thought she had a little bit more energy around her performance and a little bit more like charisma and a little bit more magnetic kind of vibes but what did you think of like her storyline ending mid-season?

59:58Andy Greenwald:I think that the show's commitment to its core principles of speed, story, and surprise are unmatched. And as we say, every time we talk about this show, you cannot and should not compare this to a prestige HBO drama or even a prestige HBO procedural. This is even more so than the pit. Like this is an inheritor of a very specific strain of serialized broadcast storytelling. This is us like Dan Fogelman. It's very similar DNA pitched in a different type of, of, of genre. And I can't help, but maybe, and maybe like the first season, I think we joked about it more about how absolutely batshit a lot of the developments were in the way that they were revealed.

1:00:50Andy Greenwald:I've found the storytelling this season to be, um, more emotionally consistent and engaging than the first season. I also realized, especially after the episode that just aired, I find the outside world just a more compelling storyline than the inside silo world. Whereas the first season that maybe I would have been shaking my head that like 90 seconds of screen time establishing Annie's relationship with her mother and her backstory, is that really enough for us to understand how she survives three plus years alone in Graceland and then gets pregnant and lives alone more and then goes outside and then, you know, doesn't go with her baby daddy to Colorado because of her trust issues, but then learns to trust as she dies in a diner.

1:01:32Andy Greenwald:Like, that's an impossible calculation to earn all of that story. Second season, I'm like, well, it's kind of just like minimalism at its finest, which is a weird thing to say about a show that is so maximalist in its aims. it does everything so so efficiently and so like the show moves so fast at no point until doing this podcast with you am I like it's remarkable that Gary packed changes of clothes and also showers and hair and makeup in that bunker right that's not what we're doing here people so long way to say it works the way that the first season unfolded and you're right about identifying the difference between what it was like in the bunker versus what it's like outside of the bunker.

1:02:15There was like a Truman Show element of unreality, especially that first episode, but a lot of it was the Sinatra character's elliptical way of talking because they were trying to hold off on revealing like who she was, what's going on in the bunker, and then also what had happened outside of the bunker and why people are the way they are. And that was a kind of almost the entire season-long gambit of like, I don't think when you finally get to the episode that really turned us onto the show, which is Seven, which is the real end of the world episode. That's when you find out about the EMP and the nukes and all the stuff that happened.

1:02:54Andy Greenwald:I also, we should have led with this. I honestly don't retain any information. I watch every show just like a happy baby seeing Teletubbies for the first time. Like, this is the only show... Is that because there's a war on or just because... I'm glad you're finally becoming aware of it. Yeah. It's not just business as usual for you. No, this is the only show that I religiously watch the recap without skipping. Because you're like, oh, right. Oh, sure. But also— Wildcat, hit that EMP. They were like, don't do it. Broke the card. But I also—I know this seems counterintuitive, but, like, I kind of celebrate that.

1:03:28Andy Greenwald:Sure. That I just—okay, sure. Now we're zagging. Let's go. That's Mr. Short-Term Memory. It's like, what? Yes. Truer than you realize. The way that revelations have kind of been doled out over the course of this season, And not only because we've watched now multiple characters go through the last day on Earth, last day of society, multiple times now. I think also, take the Mailman episode, which was the last week's episode, which is kind of paradise, maybe not at its best, but at its most paradise. In so much as introduces a very kind-seeming character, you are like okay so this is going to be a new member of like the kind of good guy gang to the extent that there is one and do you recognize who this actor is no playing gary cameron britain who we adored fucking mindhunter playing kem that was named ed kemper in mindhunter wow that's sick yeah good for him um he's incredibly good actor and the entire time you're like this guy has like a sweetness to him that's really really nice gentle as it gets further into the episode you're like that's interesting and it's interesting that he's like i'm in love with terry but like really actually in love with her not just like i love her from afar and um as you get to the final twist which is not that ennis has betrayed everybody yeah but that the mailman isn't gary the mailman has in fact kind of lost it at the end yep and killed Ennis.

1:04:58And maybe Terry is not with the okra seed coffee drinking militia.

1:05:03Andy Greenwald:Or that she wasn't taken by them. Yeah. It's a good twist. And it's nice to have it compact within the episode rather than be like in two or three episodes the season twist is that the mailman is bad. It's funny. Well, I don't know if it's funny. It's fun, I think, to have been watching television a certain way long enough to see the game change. Like in the same way that like an offensive of course, or like Vic Fangio is just like, ah, now I need to, now this is what offenses are doing because they're highlighting inefficiencies. And now I must change what I do to counteract it. And the example we always use for years in the podcast, if you're drinking, if this is a drinking game drink is John Landgraf at FX being like, ah, the mini series, people have given up on that.

1:05:44Andy Greenwald:And then he leaned into that world and it worked out really well for them. Um, one of the things about the, the, the kind of the slowing down of television over the last 20 years, the, you know, we can tell every part of every story and we can really drill into these people's lives has been a kind of, it's not we've become less vigilant watchers. It's that we've been told that sometimes now there is room for moments in scenes that aren't crucial building blocks of plot. That you could have a moment that could be more about how the characters respond to, reflect on it and grow. The example I'm talking about is in episode five, when Gary misreads the moments where he's built a radio so Terry could reach out to try to contact Xavier.

1:06:32Andy Greenwald:And he goes in for a kiss and she's like, I can't, I know. An old school TV watcher watching bang, bang, week to week, 22 episodes. It's like, that's the most important thing that this scene is telling us. This guy doesn't get it. This guy wants something he's never going to get. My dumbass HBO brain is just like, oh, there's nuance to this. He wanted something, but he could express something else. When in fact, there are no wasted moments in Paradise because it moves too fucking fast. That's what I'm saying. It's like every single thing that happens in Paradise is actually worth paying attention to.

1:07:02Yes. Or not at all. And you'll just find out. You can watch it in two different ways. When you go back and look at the Mailman episode, in fact, the reason why you didn't think that that was an inappropriate and red flag moment for that guy is because Ennis is set up as the bad version of Gary. Right. So the guy in the Georgia Tech hat who's bossing everybody around and has been like waiting all his life for the prepper moment

1:07:25Andy Greenwald:and doesn't want anyone to leave. And staring at one of the women that he brought into the bunker in a menacing way. Everything that Gary is saying that Ennis is is in fact what Gary is. He doesn't want people to leave. He wants to be with Terry. He's never had, he doesn't have anyone that he would have saved before then. And in fact, now in retrospect, if I was like, damn, Gary and Terry really got along that way, They did not. I don't know that Terry would characterize Gary as her best friend and her partner for the last five years. She might have just been like, that was a dude I was in a bunker with.

1:07:54That's cold.

1:07:56Andy Greenwald:I mean, again, last week, this is not surprising. There was a little bit of a drive-by on Last of Us. And I think what I was trying to express that I appreciated about Paradise, in the moments it has, which are not very many, towards sketching out different ways of dealing with an apocalypse, I'm here for one where people come together and make it work. Like, that is also a zag from what we've seen for... Instead of having, like, yeah, just skin-eating colonies. Inevitable breakdown of everything. That said, the ability of the show or maybe the willingness of the show or is it the necessity of the show to yada yada, just giant swaths of potentially interesting material is remarkable and feels different.

1:08:40Andy Greenwald:Now, the other thing about a Dan Fogelman show is that the past has never passed. Like, they can always revisit, remind. I mean, James Marsden is still kicking around in the show, and his character dies in the pilot, I believe. So there's always stuff to unpack. That was also the essential backbone of This Is Us. We're just jumping through time, and we understand that some characters are no longer with us, but there's still history to learn from there. We're all going to be in this room. The world has ended for three weeks. And then it's just like, we're out. now we've got chickens. And I'm like, I just feel like a couple, probably a couple more speed bumps than we realized, including the fact that they brought in a young child who remarkably doesn't age.

1:09:21Andy Greenwald:Yeah, Bean. That is... Well, it's only been three weeks. Yeah, but then it's three years. Oh, right. Well, we haven't seen what Bean looks like. We just see that Bean saw Gary Gillett. Yeah, but that was a week ago. That wasn't three years ago. Okay. Unless they recast him. Is there any Gary edit? Is there any Gary, Bean, Terry stuff in the Jane episode? Oh, well, I believe we see, I could be wrong, because I did watch them back to back, but I believe that when Gary turns on... Ennis. Ennis. Bean season. Bean season. That's at the end of the... Yeah, but that is in essentially the present moment.

1:10:00Andy Greenwald:That's like two weeks before Xavier arrives. Oh, okay. And Bean is still... Now, maybe what the show is actually telling us that a three years of canned beans does not support bone growth. You know what I mean? Maybe it is a subtle dig at a vegan diet. Maybe that's what it's saying. I don't know. Okay. But that was a tough one to sort of plot around. Everyone just looks amazing after their three years in the bunker. Yeah. Just ready to like start new lives. And it's like nobody seems that bummed out about the end of civilization. I mean, if you were in the bunker and you could tell stories about the NCAA tournaments of the early 2000s.

1:10:38Andy Greenwald:That would get me through the first three weeks. Kansas had Keith Langford. What if the other version of Paradise is like you invite the six people who can help restart society and you have a nurse and a mechanic and then, you know. They were getting loose at the end. It was just like she likes mushrooms. She likes mushrooms. And then you also bring in the guy that has like raging sleep apnea into the small room. Is that the moment when you're like, there is one flaw in my plan. That's a tight space, man. But I guess there was a shower. I'm actually curious. I'm going to ask you. Because honestly, Jane's a little bit of a mystery to me.

1:11:17What motivates her? What animates her? What's her trauma?

1:11:20Andy Greenwald:The one thing that I am... The one thing I'm curious about. The beauty of the show and the reason why we enjoy covering it is it could literally do anything at any moment. And I think that's... Well, that's crazy. That's fun. And I definitely like the show more this season and thinking about it, it's almost entirely because of the Annie and Xavier out in the world stuff. I think that's been more emotionally compelling. It's more interesting. It's more exciting. And like I was saying, it presents just a different way to tell an apocalyptic story. And at this point, that's as refreshing as anything else.

1:11:52Andy Greenwald:Sure. I would say that the episode that you have yet to see is the weakest of the season so far, in my opinion, because Jane, no disrespect towards the actress, who we should shout out, Nicole Bryden Bloom. If you're going to cast a willowy 30-year-old as a savage, unhinged killer, she's doing a pretty good job. It's a tough beat, but she's handling it well. And she shot Sinatra in the chest. Yes. At the end of the first season. Yes. But now still works for Sinatra. Sinatra knows. Sorry, I just spoiled the episode. Oh, right. She was like Sinatra. Do you remember? She does remember. Okay. She tells her I remember, but she's like, that's why I'm keeping you close.

1:12:36Andy Greenwald:Because you shot me. You shot me. That's what the secret to our success. I know. Oh, okay. But all this is to say, like, the excesses of season one, which was just twist on top of twist on top of twist, that the goofy, young Secret Service agent who you're overlooking, she just loves Nintendo, actually is an unhinged psychopath responsible for much of the bloodshed. that was a good TV twist, but not a story I really needed a lot of This Is Us level trauma unpacking about. Do we have her like before? We do. We have her from birth. And not just her from birth and her backstory with her difficult mother and her childhood, and then how she once wanted to help her mentor get a promotion, so she cut her boss's rival's dick off and delivered it to her in a bag.

1:13:28Andy Greenwald:Do you want to take a moment and watch that scene on Who Moose? What was her mentor doing? Was she also a killer or was she like— She's in like special services, you know. She's trained, you know. The one—the show has interest in seemingly everything and can seemingly do anything at once. And one thing that I am less interested in in the second season is the subtle suggestion that there might be some deeper power connecting these people, that it's not just the magic of television that everyone can intersect emotionally and plot-wise at the right moments. And this is the scenes of, like, Xavier's visions of Link, who is the new character.

1:14:07Andy Greenwald:Thomas Dordia. Thomas, who, you know, as far as we know, they've never met, and they've never been in the same room, but maybe this is, and it's even referred to, he's like, I keep having these dreams. And they're also having the seizures with the nosebleeds. So it's as if there's something, something more metaphysical happening. Do you want me to tell you what I think that is or what the internet thinks that is? Well, before you do, let me just say that the Jane episode begins with someone at like a Best Buy in 1997 getting a lot of emails and messages saying, a killer will be born at 12 or whatever a.m.

1:14:39Andy Greenwald:You must deliver a message to this killer. And this guy then goes to the hospital and yells at baby Jane that you are a killer, but you can change. And the mom then hates her child because she's like, you're a killer. You're trouble. and so then Jane's just like I'm a killer I'm trouble I think I just want you to recap this show for me for the rest of the season so tell me your theory it's not it's not individually like I did not I'm not the inventor of this maybe I am Columbus-ing in this that Alex and the other Sinatra shoot or drop is like a time machine of some kind that would track with the lost the lost tendencies of this show and capital L I'm trying to be more accountable in this wartime, but also more, I got to stand by what I say.

1:15:28Andy Greenwald:And if I admire the show for being willing to do or try anything, I can't roll my eyes at that. Okay. You got to go for it. But I thought you would actually have turned slightly on the show once it became Lone Xavier and Cub. There's too many babies in this situation. Too many babies. I mean, Bean's not a baby, but we got too many kids in the mix. and despite the foregrounding he's being made a promise and also the name of the baby is Annie's Baby but also the foregrounding of when he's like well babies are resilient I'm like baby you know I've been a major player a key player or a good supporting actor 49 % shareholder and I think that they were pretty strong and healthy but I don't think I would have gone on a road trip on horseback from Graceland to the greater Atlanta metro area.

1:16:24But if there was no devices, maybe that would be something you would do, you know?

1:16:27Andy Greenwald:Oh, you mean if I couldn't play subway surfers, I would take a baby on a road trip just to feel alive? What do you mean? No devices. See the country. The one thing that, here's the other thing that I'm tracking that is kind of a bummer, is the hashtag girl dad stuff in movies that we were talking about. That really works for me. The had a baby once and then joined a TV writer's room vibe from Paradise where so much of everyone's actions and then explanations for the actions involve Xavier or another character being like, the moment you become a father is the moment you realize who in your life is going to betray you when an EMP goes off in a post-apocalyptic event.

1:17:06Andy Greenwald:You know what I mean? Like that whole thing where he's just like, I trusted this woman with the baby because Terry wouldn't let me read stories to my children and she didn't let you do it either, Gary. I'm like it's a little bit Park Slope parents message board for me it is it is you know there's some next door qualities to it and if it's rubbing me the wrong way I can only imagine that honestly I did not pick up on that but that just goes to show you my childless home no because you're imagining a world where there's a time machine that can just make you forget all the parts of paradise you don't like we can wrap it up there okay thanks to Kai and Kaya we'll be back on Thursday where we will talk about the pit and take a little spin around the Sheridan universe, which has come back with two shows, one on CBS, one on Paramount+.

1:17:52Andy Greenwald:Oh, but do I have to watch both of them? No, you don't have to watch Marshalls. I don't think you really understand what Casey's going through anyway. Thanks for listening. That's what I say when we talk about the state of HBO. That's right.