Oscar Nominations, ‘Sentimental Value’ Is Sensational, and Screenwriting in the Double-Screen Era. Plus, ‘The Pitt’ S2E3.

19:16And Sean's talked to those filmmakers, and I think I understand where they are in their personal lives and why they made the movies that they made and why those films specifically end the way they do, which is on, I think without spoiling anything, a moment of hopefulness or a note of perhaps better days are to come. and I guess I feel like that happens in sentimental value you know I mean there's some ambiguity to the end of the film but there's I think ultimately like a kind of meeting of meeting at the in the sort of midway point of between these two

19:53Andy Greenwald:characters and a note of communication yes and I kind of long for a movie to be like that's not how it works well you have I think homed in on something important which is this is a trilogy of girl dad films for the ages. And Trier has said that this is the first movie he has made since becoming the father to two daughters. And this is a beautiful movie about sisters and that relationship. So I'm locked in, obviously. But I think that you're onto something that is very intentional. And I'm there for it. As someone who has to find a shred of hope every day. Sure, yeah. Which is why, you know, I frequent Facebook.

20:37Andy Greenwald:So I could not recommend that movie more highly. Oh, I also want to say, I didn't even report on this to you. As part of my, you know, decades-long campaign of quiet support for Rose Byrne, thrilled that she was nominated, I did. Quiet support? Some people are noisy. I've been there. Yeah. I've done, you know, I watch physical. You know, we didn't even talk about it always, but I watched it. Yeah. I did give, if I had legs, I'd kick you, a spin. Did you? Yeah. You gotta get a letterboxd. I'm behind on what you're up on. That's a tough one. Yeah. It's real tough. Not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's a real tough watch.

21:15Andy Greenwald:Uh-huh. She's amazing. And I'm thrilled for her nomination. Very deserving of a nomination. Would you like to do a similar statement of public support for Kate Hudson in Song Song Blue? You know, it's on my to-do list is both to see that film and then to vocally support her. I noticed with interest that there's this very fascinating matrix that I don't quite understand that I think Sean and Amanda are very keyed into about what's getting supported within guilds or within the town or within... Because you have to understand, when you read those anonymous Oscar ballots, I think some of them are a little bit like they're outliers.

21:54It's almost like...

21:55Andy Greenwald:They harvest the most extreme takes off of us. Yeah, I'm almost just like, is this person... I'm sure that they're real, but it seems like somehow they find the five people who are like, I lost my password, so I'm voting for F1. You know, like... Luckily, I still have my subscription to Gramophone. Yeah. But I did notice that, like, you know, Song Song Blue had been presented as, like, the feel-good movie of the year or whatever. Or actually more just, like, kind of like a jukebox musical of Neil Diamond songs sung by these two people. And apparently it's much darker. you know than that and i think that they have now kind of like at least on billboards and in some of the the press i've read gotten on top of that narrative of like it's actually like a searing you know dramedy and a return to form for kate hudson you know so i knew that that movie seemed to have some momentum and it's always interesting when you see like who's hosting guild screenings you know what I mean?

22:55I think Frankenstein's a good example of a movie that I don't believe had a ton of critical adoration but seems to be almost universally beloved within the industry.

23:07Andy Greenwald:Sort of like the Denver Broncos this year. Like we keep thinking they're fraudulent but they keep winning. I would almost say that the Broncos are like more of like a media darling. It's the reverse. Yeah, like I think Sean Payton does a lot of work of like working on his reputation. We want to be at Grantland Podcast so badly today. I'm really digging it. We should do best picture nominations as NFL teams. Great. Who are the birds? Name the three that didn't get nominated. Sorry, I didn't. Yeah, Park Jam. Who are the biggest stars? Park Snow, other choice, yeah. No, I think it was just an accident is Kevin Petulo's first line in a lot of his upcoming interviews.

23:50Andy Greenwald:What were wrong? Yeah. Okay. I think that's interesting. I have to say that I definitely didn't get the feel-good vibes from Song Song Blue because one experience, I don't have many theatrical experiences. If you saw the trailer, it makes it seem like these two people just like become superstars. No, I feel like I saw a different trailer because the one theatrical experience that I have that maybe I share, that you don't, that maybe I share with Paul Thomas Anderson, Josh Safdie, and Joachim Trier is that when I go to these matinees of like Zootopia 2, the only trailers that they can show for kids are kids' movies and an unending fountain of movies, mostly starring Zachary Levy about a guy who was in a Christian rock band and then fell in hard times, and the band gets back together to save the quadriplegic son of one of the bassists.

24:42Andy Greenwald:And that's the vibe of Song Song Blue. It's the Kevin Padula story right there. Truly. I thought it was one of those movies. It's just a little bit off. I think it has that vibe from what I understand. So, all right. Well, Ethan Hawke nominated. Yeah. That's cool. You bring up Ethan Hawke who got nominated for Blue Moon. He is fucking extraordinary in that movie. You've seen it. Oh my God. Yeah. Blue Moon. Yeah. I want to see it. My boy Rick just double barreled this year. Hit after hit. I know. Nouvelle Vague is great and Blue Moon is, you will love Blue Moon. Yeah. I know. My dad had a gramophone subscription.

25:17Andy Greenwald:Like this is clearly a movie I can get behind. My favorite Oscar category is always Best Original Screenplay. Okay. I always really enjoy both how they divvy up. Obviously, I think Anora won last year, so it was kind of like a Sean Baker sweep. Oh, but usually, you're right. Usually, screenplay is for the real hands. It's like, hey, here's Pulp Fiction. You know what I mean? You get Best Original Screenplay. So, Best Original Screenplay goes to Blue Moon, It Was Just an Accident, Marty Supreme, Sentimental Value, and Sinners. Yep. And I don't know what would be the like, here's a tip of the cap to this.

25:56I don't know. I wonder if Blue Moon...

26:01Andy Greenwald:I think my sense is... You think Sinners wins this and then One Battle wins? I think Sentimental Value wins this. Oh. And then I think Kugler and PTA are in a knockout fight for the other two categories. I see. That's my guess. the other thing just to mention One Battle After Another is in Adapted because it was inspired by Thomas Pinchon's apparently that is how you say it yeah I don't I stand with you no I just I was just shocked I mean I guess I have not yet worked up the courage to go into a bookstore and say pardon me sir do you have the new novel from Thomas Pinchon I feel like of all the places you could try that out fucking Skylight would be the safest room for you What are you worried about?

26:48They would just be like, you mean Thomas Pynchon?

26:50Andy Greenwald:Yeah, but then you could be like, aha, sir, let me show you some internet comments. Yeah, hold on. I'm going to pull up a clip. Scroll through this. I also think... No, these are just an Instagram reel of Brian Dawkins' biggest tackles ever. Let me make a really relatable analogy here, if you don't mind. I think it's okay to just roll with the popularly adopted pronunciation of things. Like in America, we say Adidas. Yeah. If you leave this country, something I'm clearly humble bragging about, it's the man's name was Adidas. The Brits say Nike. They still say Nike. No, they don't. A lot of them do.

27:25Andy Greenwald:Which ones? Name names. James Dimitri, come on here and say the names of sneaker companies challenge. I dare you. All right. The only other thing, is this a snub? Like, Sinners cleaned up, and I thought Miles Cadden, who's the kid in the movie, the supporting actor. Yeah. He was very good, and I was surprised that he wasn't nominated. I was surprised that he wasn't nominated as well. Paul Meskel did not get nominated for Hamnet. Chase Infinity did not get nominated for one battle after another. That's a tricky one, though, because she... I think... Is that the Elle Fanning? Is that... No, she...

27:57Andy Greenwald:Chase Infinity submitted as lead. I did not know that. That was a big... That's the kind of thing that, like, gets a headline six months ago, that that's what she would be angling for, and maybe some of the thinking was Tiana Taylor had supporting in the back, so they didn't want to compete against each other directly, but she did go for Best Actress, so in a way, Kate Hudson and Rose Byrne stole that slot. To you, I'm not going to hold you to it. We have a month to consider. Do you have a head, heart, best picture pick here? Like what you would want to win versus... I think one battle after another is probably both.

28:27I think one battle after another certainly has... I wonder whether the precursor events, like Sean and Amanda have talked about a little bit. A lot of the like... I don't know whether or not the Oscars are going to hugely differentiate from the way things have been going so far.

28:43Andy Greenwald:With the awards, yeah. Yeah. typically what would happen I think because the the voting base has become so diversified internationally and you know like they've done a huge effort made a huge effort to make it a more of an international voting block typically like I think that would indicate that maybe something like sentimental value but like it almost surprised I wonder whether or not the absence of it was just an accident and no other choice in best picture suggests like a course correction or some sort of like i i don't know that that was interesting to me can i give you i have no skin in this game i do not i'm not involved in a popular film podcast so can i just i'm going to give you my day of nominations i'm going to give you my predictions and if i win you can start hosting the big picture you'll watch a miyazaki movie okay best adapted i think it's going to be one battle for best adapted i think it's going to be sentimental sentimental value for screenplay.

29:40Andy Greenwald:I think Tiana Taylor, I think Stellan Skarsgård, Jesse Buckley, Chalamet, director, PTA, picture, Sinners. So Sinners winning best picture with no other awards. I wonder what the precedent would be for that. No, I think it'll, oh yeah, what other awards would it win? Well, I mean, it's up for 16. I think there's a lot of technical awards and other things. Yeah, I think it would win those. I actually, as I'm saying it. I wonder if Sinners, like, I can't remember the last time a best picture also got no other above the line. Yeah, I think, you know what, line but director and picture usually are in tandem so i actually i'm going to revise i'm going to go on the record as kugler i think pta gets writing so and does one battle after another win best picture you think sinners wins best director and best picture i think so interesting i do not agree with this i'm i would go on the record with that as well but uh i think that's my prediction okay i i think that because again i'm not i'm not in the guilds actually i am in one of the guilds but i'm not like following the the trends of the guilds but you don't and i think Do you vote in the Writers Guild Awards?

30:39Andy Greenwald:For the Writers Guild Awards, yeah, I can vote. Do you? I can't comment on that. Okay. They don't let you comment? No, I'm just deep in the polymarket for it as well. So I don't want to like tip anything. I was going to make a joke about how, why would they have polymarket for the Writers Guild Awards? But they really do have polymarket for anything. Polymarket for like the number of times I mentioned Effingers on this podcast. And we just hit the over. Big win for me. I would say that these voting blocks are not monoliths. and they don't necessarily vote with a personality or a point of view or an agenda.

31:11Andy Greenwald:That said, I think the opportunity to crown sinners is tough to pass up because it is original IP from a young filmmaker, and it sort of ticks the box of, this is a popular movie. This movie did very well at the box office. It is also critically adored, and you certainly can't argue with the technical genius of the film. So I feel like there, and with the number of nominations today, I just feel like momentum is trending in that direction. We'll have to listen to Sean and Amanda and see what their take is. I would listen to my take, go, hmm, and then actually listen to the experts. That's what I just did.

31:48Andy Greenwald:That was interesting. Do what Kristen did. Tolerate me. Not tolerating you. You know, I brought up the screenplay nom. Yeah. And screenwriting has been on my mind this week. Probably because I don't have to do any. So I'm sure. Yeah, it's been on my mind this week too. You get done screenwriting and you're like, the last thing I want to talk about or do is write for screen. But Matt Damon and Ben Affleck have been on the promo tour for The Rip. Have you seen it yet? I did. I loved it. I did the big picture on it. I loved it. Loved. I liked it a lot. I thought it was quite entertaining. I'm very excited to see it.

32:26Looks like a lot of fun. Our producer, Kaya, not as big of a fan. Kaya, you didn't like it? I liked it. They're not going to get mad at you. Who's they?

32:37No, I liked it. I just thought some of the dialogue was corny and I thought, I said to Chris before we started recording, it really showed me the power of directing because I thought Tiana Taylor, who was quite good in one battle after another and quite bad in this movie.

32:52Andy Greenwald:Interesting. I thought maybe you were worried it was a sequel to R.I.P.D. No, I did not worry about that. I think that one's been buried. Or maybe there's, it would be funny if in the Blake Lively, Taylor Swift text trove, there was like, Ryan's hard at work on Ripped 2. Did that? Gotta get it in while Jeff Bridges is still with us. Did that leak? Give you any pause about the free-flowing exchange of ideas that we have with Zach Barron? I do not want to be deposed. About anything? No. No FOIAs for you? It's not even like that I'm that ashamed about it. I just would, just to see text messages in that context.

33:28The other thing that was shocking to me, if we're really talking about it, Sure. Is when Blake Lively is like, hey, so this is like, if you haven't been following along with this, this is the sort of lawsuits that have been going back and forth between Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni over the It Ends With Us movie and the debacle that came out of that, although it was quite successful. They've now somehow, for whatever reason, it's been like, well, you need to turn over all of your text messages. I don't, this is like a part of the American legal system where I'm like, really? can't imagine that ever and also it's weird is that like yeah they got the january 6 texts but they're like never mind you can just be president yes i'm glad you've reached this

34:16Andy Greenwald:point were you doing sober like jack smith consideration of these issues until just today did you just break your silence i'm just saying so blake lively had sort of brought taylor swift into this whole process because there was going to be Taylor Swift's music in the movie and... And their pals. And their pals. And so at one point, they're going back and forth, but Blake Lively is mad at Justin Baldoni and has sort of employed Taylor Swift to be on her side and to kind of do this and do that and have a meeting with him and tell him he's nothing and whatever. Then months pass or whatever and things have been going poorly for Blake Lively and Taylor Swift were just off.

35:01And Blake Lively's like, hey, love you. Seems like you're maybe mad at me, but maybe that's just in my head. And Taylor Swift's like, no, it's not in your head. And I was like, oh, shit. I would hate that.

35:16Andy Greenwald:If someone broke the social contract and told the truth. No, only Taylor Swift. Yeah, that's the thing. That decision where it's just like, I think I don't think guys really do this very much where it's like hey is something wrong and they're like yeah you you know

35:38Andy Greenwald:I don't I mean generally like our techs are we're really going to interview Jim Bob Cooter and that's not like like that's not like a metaphor it's not code for no that's like shoot heroin no that's actually a football coach's name yeah that's true we're kind of surfacing that like Kai Blake, do you want to weigh in on this? Were you surprised that when Blake Lively was like, hey, there's something wrong, Taylor was like, yeah, there is something wrong. You sound weird. You're weird. I mean, I got to respect it because, like, I'm a non-confrontational person. Yeah, me too. Also, Taylor Swift says she's never been to therapy, but she speaks like someone who's done a lot of therapy.

36:17Well, I feel like now, because of the over-therapization of, like, a lot of, like, movies and TV shows and everything, it's like you can kind of like talk in that talk without actually doing the work. Yeah. That's my plan. She's like, I don't have to go to therapy. I saw sentimental value.

36:33Andy Greenwald:You're not wrong. I guess I respect the directness. I feel that there is something, there's something vulnerable here, but also kind of affirming that all of these people who work so hard and pay so many people to create their public facing personas really just are who they are. like Ryan Reynolds texts like Deadpool. Like, did you see the text he sent Colleen Hoover where he was like, I'm sorry I couldn't speak to you at the party. I was so deep inside the mouth of that marketing exec. I'm still trapped here. Help get me out. And he's like, you and B created something so powerful and beautiful.

37:11Andy Greenwald:You can dial it down a little bit. You know, it's fine. I also say this as someone who would never ever want to be exposed in this way. and yet there is a part of me that does think that of all the body of work the great body of work that i've left in the public domain these last 25 years i do think the very best of it is like a one-off text to tim simons where i send the right gif at 4 p.m you know what i mean or if i just come in that's where you do your that's that's like that's your legacy yeah so i do it's a shame it's like i wish you know people used to leave their letters to universities yes yes it'd be great if you had a terminal illness and you were just like went up to the university of phoenix donations desk.

37:49Andy Greenwald:No, you went back to Brown. You went up to the library and you were like, here you go. Just gave him the iPhone. It's like, I turned face ID off. It's unlocked. It's all yours. You're like, this guy really cared about the offensive schemes. This guy fucking loved pints. This guy visited Facebook a lot. Alright, all this was because of Matt Damon's comments. Yeah, I just wanted to bring this up because I thought Damon and Affleck have done this is one of those like, I think they've gotten more press for their press tour than for the movie kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, they are more famous than this movie is.

38:20But they were on Rogan, and Damon started talking a little bit about the notes process and the kind of desires of Netflix when it comes to what they're looking for with their film and television. And he said that things had changed, that back in the day when they would make action movies, you would basically do a big set piece. You do a set piece per act in ascending order of scale, Craziness. And craziness and tension and consequences. And he's like, now they want you to have something grabby in the first opening moments of a movie so that people don't click out of it. Yes. Which is something I don't really do.

38:59Like, I don't really, like, I personally am certainly not watching a movie and be like, well, nothing as grabby has happened yet. It's like, I'm fine watching the credits in 10 minutes or 20 minutes of setup. You're old school. I am old school. I am. But, and so he was like, now we're kind of inverting it where something huge has to happen in the first minutes or they're convinced people are going to click out of it. And then, furthermore, and this is something that he articulated what I felt about the last season of Stranger Things that I just couldn't put my finger on, which is the consistent reiteration of plot and reiteration of what the stakes are and the setup and narrating what is pretty obvious on screen and sort of being like, we have to go over there.

39:47And then they go over there. It's like, well, you could just show me them walking over there and I would be able to piece that together. But at least according to Damon, this is like the idea that people are constantly looking at their phones while they're watching these movies and shows and that they might forget. And I have to admit that when I watch either say Pluribus or Sentimental Value and either there's not dialogue or there's no dialogue in a language that I know, I am like, oh fuck, I actually can't look at The Athletic to see if we've hired an OC because I'll miss the entire point of the scene.

40:21Anyway, I just was wondering whether or not, I guess not explicitly, have you ever gotten notes that suggest as much, not from Netflix per se, because I don't think it's exclusively Netflix. I think when I see other shows, I've never worked with Netflix. Right. But have you noticed a post-streaming, and perhaps to put it at a point, I think I would identify this as a post-COVID thing because I do think that people have kind of developed a now debilitating need to have their phone in their hand all the time. Probably because we had it in our hands a lot during lockdown and stuff like that. Have you noticed that there is a change in the way that you're being asked to write scripts?

41:02Yes. Or how you write scripts anyway just because you're seeing so much of this stuff?

41:07Andy Greenwald:This is why we've made fun of it without ever really saying why it exists. but why the number one most annoying trend in pilots, especially over the last three years, is start with something incredibly exciting and then say five - Six months earlier. Yes. Let's go back to the more natural starting point for the story that's not as interesting. We have created a generation of helicopter executives who do their job the way parents behave on the playgrounds of Highland Park. You know, like the children cannot be left out of your sight for one second lest they do something dangerous or in the case of the executives lest the audience just or lest they get hired to be the OC of the Eagles I think we should start young and raise them right that's right it's the prince who was promised just this young boy it's like higher egg is our new offensive coordinator the kid in the fucking matrix he's just like bending spoons except he's getting guys open for each enders game but it's the cowboys in November oh I hope people are enjoying this these are really good ideas yeah and they're free um yeah so you know because there i mean we we keep we we keep distracting ourselves we're digressing on this podcast talking about reels and other things and that is the experience of audiences i will say that i've not come up against the restatement of plot but the absolute surefire note particularly from streaming services like i guess everyone is a streaming service these days but particularly when you are developing for a Netflix or an Amazon that comes from the tech world, they are hyper, hyper focused on the first three minutes more than anything else.

42:44Andy Greenwald:Yeah. That they have very, very concrete evidence that there is a time, there's a window, a clock starts when someone presses play, where they either are going to commit or they are not going to commit. And that those have to be the stickiest moments possible. And I think that's interesting from the perspective of people who've been making movies for a while, how that has just upended or rearranged in a more charitable way, just recalibrated what a movie is and how it is supposed to feel. That it's not ascending, that it's actually in some ways descending in the first moment and settling in. Now look, there are plenty of examples.

43:22Heat opens with an action scene, you know what I mean? There are plenty of things that movies and television shows that open with something big. But I think you can see it, to your point, a show like Black Rabbit, which I did actually like quite a bit, but has some of that, like, why is this show opening with what should be the highlight of the first couple of episodes, which is building up to this robbery? You know what I mean? Instead, we're going to go backwards now, knowing that this is going to go wrong for these two guys, but we're not exactly sure who all the players are. And I don't know whether that was a note or whether that was them saying like, we can't just open this and have an hour of these guys trying to set a restaurant up.

44:05Andy Greenwald:It's not just that. It's that like the analogy that I would use that is hyper specific to me. And again, the other girl dads who have made films this year is when I'm making the kids lunches and I open the drawer to find containers to put aspects of their lunch in and I have all the wrong sizes. So like I have like a small thing made for like a side of sauce and I'm trying to put like fucking takeout chicken satay in there with the stick coming out of it. That was just this morning. But the point being, Black Rabbit has to exist in an ecosystem where the sizes are all wrong. I think that the filmmakers were rightfully, I mean, they cared about the action sequence and the crescendo of their story for sure.

44:43Andy Greenwald:But what they also were excited about was a story of mismatched brothers coming together and starting a restaurant and the community of people that would be in the restaurant who would become people you would get to know, care about, so that when this crescendo happened, you would be invested in it. Then they're trying to cram that in to a Tupperware that is made by Netflix, which means it has to be a certain way at the beginning. And they're trying to do it in an ecosystem where they want, that they went for, I don't know if they wanted, but they ended up with Jason Bateman and Jude Law, stars who are not committing to five years of slow build.

45:14Andy Greenwald:Sure. So the whole thing ends up being slightly misshapen from maybe what they originally thought. And to our critical eyes was like, oh, that's not, that wouldn't have been my preferred way to enter into a story. The fact that you got to a place where you liked the story and you still engage with it is a triumph. Sure. The notes are weird and they are changing our filmmaking experience and it goes back to what I was saying about sentimental value which is your mileage may vary from mine but the way that movie opened with the voiceover and the house I loved it I thought it was beautiful. Into main characters backstage freak out which honestly mimicked how I felt before our FYC Atlanta panel eight years ago.

45:57Andy Greenwald:I found that so hysterical in all senses, and I was so riveted. But that's my version, I guess, of a massive car chase or something. I was in on that, and 100 % that would be noted. Yes. You know, if it was, and there's a lot of Netflix jokes in that movie, actually. Yeah, it's an interesting experience because, you know, when Sentimental Value begins, there's three full screens of financier cards. And also, every country in Europe's film commission has kicked in 10 grand. I was thinking about this too. And the movie itself is about Stellan Skarsgård's character, who's the sort of lionized, critically beloved filmmaker, who's going to make one last movie.

46:48And he initially is going to make it with his daughter, played by Renata Rensva. and then he chooses, after she rejects him, to make it with an American movie star played by Elle Fanning.

47:02And there's this kind of like art imitating life, imitating art thing going on in the movie, but I did note with interest that when he gets Elle Fanning to sign on to the movie, Netflix just signs on to produce the film. Before that, he's like, we'll scrape together the necessary funds from all of these nation's film boards and do whatever is necessary to do that. Maybe you hire one. I don't know why the Film Society of Ireland kicks in money to a Joachim Trier movie, but it's just fascinating. What you have to do to patch together funding to make anything if you're not making it for one of these major things.

47:43Andy Greenwald:Can I give away an idea here? I think the way to bring all of this together in a way that is both creatively satisfying and maybe illuminating to the larger world is for the Safdie brothers, or at least one of them, pick them, to make a movie called The Financier. Not about Jeff Epstein, but about the guy whose job it is to go hat in hand to every liberal Western democracy and ask for a few thousand euros or whatever to make a movie. You can get Lars Eidinger to play the lead. Sure. I feel like it would be quite striking I can't imagine it. I mean, I also don't know how much longer that will be the case, you know?

48:25Andy Greenwald:Well, you know, I think it all depends on Greenland. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us. The intersection of interest that inspires a run crew. The support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com.

49:18This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then. Because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn more at vw.com.

50:16Andy Greenwald:Before we get into the pit, can I just make the small, speaking of small projects that are multilingual with lots of subtitles so you can't look at a second screen, I would like to make the case for Drops of God Season 2. Please do. This is a very, very hyper-specific, very charming series that premiered two-plus years ago on Apple TV. It is a massive international co-production. the first season is about a essentially a wine tasting competition in which a Robert Parker-esque but one who is respected around the world not just America wine expert dies and he leaves his legacy his guide his cellar to the winner of a competition that is between his daughter who's a French woman played by Fleur Geoffrier Can you just say that name one more time?

51:06Andy Greenwald:I believe it's Fleur and I believe it's Geoffrier Okay I actually did listen to on Instagram beforehand. It was an interview between her and Joachim Trier, and I was only listening to what she was saying. Well, you're an ally. Always. Above all else. Yeah. And the second competitor in the wine tasting competition is by the dead legend's disciple, who, spoiler alert, might be more than his disciple, who lives in Japan, played by Tomohisa Yamashita, that I do. And anyway, it was a really, really entertaining series. And I think there's a bunch of ways into it. It is sort of melodramatic and over the top, but it is also beautifully international on films in France and Japan and all over Europe.

51:49And it got renewed.

51:52Andy Greenwald:I mean, yeah. And now it's back for season two. And it continues to be very, very escapist and charming this season in the first episode already. They go to Spain. They go to Marseille. The stakes are now to hunt down the origin of a mysterious unlabeled bottle of wine. Do you think that they're really going to those places or are they just shooting in Budapest and being like, ah, Spain? This could be a subplot of the Safdie brothers, the finance year movie, because there are a lot of international names in this cast and a lot of production companies, and I don't quite get how it works, but it works.

52:25Andy Greenwald:The only thing that I will say about, because some people might turn to me and say, how do you find stakes in a show about two people decanting? And I will say that this season introduces Issei's new obsession with free diving. oh yeah which which definitely is a lot more dangerous than swirling and sniffing I watched the whole documentary about that the other thing that the first episode does and I loved it I want to be clear about that was that there's a moment when when you say tastes he sniffs and he tastes this wine this mysterious wine and he has a vision when he has the when he and the vision is of the fucking sea of tranquility on the moon and I'm telling you I was like, are they saying this wine's from space?

53:14Andy Greenwald:For a moment, I was like, Apple's notes were so crazy that they were like, Can we get some For All Mankind involved? They were like, For All Mankind works for us. Foundation works for us. Can we spice this up? Can we space this up? I don't think that's... No, it was probably just his sort of, that was his poetic mind traveling all the way out there. But the fact that even for a second, I was like, oh shit, dog. Yeah. They terraformed Mars. Because Kwatu was like, the minerality of the red soil is so unique. And he's sniffing it, like all the face inside of him is sniffing it and tasting it. That's not true.

53:52Andy Greenwald:But did I make it sound more interesting? I'm interested. I liked the couple of episodes that I watched last year. It just didn't really grab me that much. It is a very gentle watch, and I'm happy that it's back. And for people who like it, you will not be disappointed. It's back. Did you feel like when they finished the first season, it was like you guys said what you needed to say? Or was there obviously a lot more in this world to explore? I mean, it's based on a longer running manga series, and I think it was quite freely adapted. So I don't actually know how close to any original text it is.

54:22Andy Greenwald:I think that the genius of it is, yes, they seem to have found a second quest worthy of the first, which I think would be a challenging assignment for a writer's room. But more than that, the show just has a very, very pleasant international cooperation vibe, which is a little bit out of step with the times. And it does have a seriousness and specificity when it comes to wine and winemaking. And like there's a whole digression in this episode about how they are like defending this vineyard against climate change in ways that are non... What's climate change? Exactly. Exactly. One thing I'm realizing as my kids get older is I can't, I'm not on a podcast with them.

55:04Andy Greenwald:So like my younger daughter was like, we watched a film in science class today. I was like, oh, that's interesting. What was it about? And she goes, climate change. And I said, well, that's a myth. And she's like, what do you mean? And I was like, okay, don't tell mom. I'm going to walk that back. Did you also, what was the nicotine thing? Oh, yeah. My older daughter was in science class. they were talking about the addictive effects of nicotine and how vapes are really easy to get. Not true. And vapes are really easy to get, but like it's kind of gross. And I was like, well, if you ever want to, you know, talk to Uncle Chris, I'm sure he could come in and address your class.

55:45Andy Greenwald:I was like, he hasn't smoked in, you know, you used to have a cigarette smoking habit. I did. You haven't had that habit in quite some time. But nicotine still plays a role. I will tell you that the cigarette that Stellan Skarsgård and Renata Rheinsvist share, I was like, I got to get back to one. Can you do one? Can you be a chipper like Malcolm Gladwell said? Well, you know, the thing is, is when you take a long time off and you hit that one, it's like, well, you know what I mean? Like it doesn't, I like the feeling of it being part of my bloodstream. You know what I mean? It's not like an every, it's like, I like nicotine.

56:21I don't know if I really want to go back to smoking cigarettes, even though they are my best friend.

56:28Andy Greenwald:I think you just answered that question. This is the most emotional I've ever seen you be on this podcast. Well, I'm also coming off a week of watching Zodiac three times, and the smoking in Zodiac definitely makes you kind of want to eat an entire pack. Should we comment on my erasure from the Zodiac rewatchable's history? It's not the first time we've redone a podcast, though. I think it's the first one that I've been edged out of history. Sorry, yeah. It's tough. Well, it's tough. The game changes. Bring your rate down. You know what I mean? It's not bad. It's just that the Declan Doyles are on my heels.

56:59It's just me, Bill, and Sean.

57:01Andy Greenwald:As it really should have been. I think the previous one was me, you, and Sean. Yeah, and weren't you like, this is a pretty good movie. It was early in the run of rewatching. Yeah, so you weren't sure that you were supposed to be, you know. Full-throated. Yeah, exactly. Let's talk a little bit about The Pit. I didn't intentionally say let's put The Pit an hour into this podcast, but I will say a very good episode of The Pit that I don't have a ton of comments on was that what you were asking me because you it was interesting you texted me asking if I had watched it yet and I hadn't and then when I reported that I had I thought you had a leading question no I thought you know what it was is I was trying to remember when The Pit last season went into like holy shit overdrive this is just like every week I'm like that was awesome I enjoyed that a lot I can go through all of our patients that we've got.

57:51If you want, you can just sort of like give me some comments. I have comments.

57:54Andy Greenwald:I do want to say, I loved this episode. This is a very good episode. But I think that what I loved about it may have been... The Tree of Life stuff? I did love that. But I also just loved the... We could probably just replay our comments from episode three a year ago, but I am so in awe of the maestro level Lydia Tarr-esque conducting that they are doing. Like, just in terms of building the scaffolding. You take it for granted because we used to have things in this country and we used to have TV like this regularly. And the way that they bring people on and off the field and the way that the stories dovetail and interact but constantly leave these little pockets of air for the characters to share a look or share a moment.

58:42Andy Greenwald:The way that it's coming up with continually creative and And, you know, we've grown up with medical dramas our entire life. And how many different styles of problem can you present to us? But finding a different way into the problem, whether it's a couple showing up in one set of circumstances and the set of circumstances then reversing. Yeah. Or we think that this guy's beating his kid, but it turns out she has an autoimmune disease. Or to speak to the Tree of Life survivor care woman patient in this episode who turns to Perla and is like, are you Muslim? And you're like, and you have the same tension in your body as when Langdon goes in with the thing to the kid's nose, the kid who can't sit still.

59:25Andy Greenwald:And you're like, which way is this going to go? And you truly don't know. This was the week this season for me where I was like, man, I am just, I'm at Dorney Park and I'm on the river. Sure. I am having a great time being caught up in it. Yeah. I mean, we had a tweaker student. We had the security guard who claims to be, who have been, to have been assaulted by the aforementioned student. And did he tase him? The security guard tased the kid? I think we're going to find out that that guy, that that kid has whatever issues. I wonder if it's not. He was clean from drugs. Yes. And so then the security guard, what's his problem?

59:58What did he do? Yeah. We have the unhoused gentleman who's been getting washed down. That's Charles Baker from Breaking Bad. Yep. Skinny Pete. We got Mr. and Mrs. Yee, who you mentioned, who had the kind of, the rope-a-dope where we think Mr. Yee is going to be quadriplegic. Then he's fine because it's just potassium. Damn. But then Mrs. Yee goes down. They got in an accident with a motorcyclist. He's dead.

1:00:24Andy Greenwald:He was real dead, and Robbie said that he always wears helmets. But he doesn't. That's not true. I know. Unreliable narrator. What else? Michael Nury is walking around the ER, greeting people. Really flirting, too. The guy from Derek Cecil, from House of Cards, plays Mr. Williams. He's down bad. He is down bad, but there was like a nice, that note of the woman who he, it was his ex-girlfriend. No, it was his ex-wife. Ex-wife. They broke up because he started losing his temper all the time. It turns out that might be a tumor. And then she got to look back and say, shit, if I could have had, if I could have known that.

1:01:01Andy Greenwald:Yeah, what would she have done? You want to weigh in on that? I feel like this is a real sliding doors moment for you. This is my thing. It's like, that was a great scene. I don't know. I don't know what to say. The young girl with bruises has a dad who is a giant asshole, but it turns out the girl is suffering from an autoimmune thing. So we get the depiction of the guy as a prick, but perhaps not a child abuser. I think definitively not. Although you never know with the show. The Tree of Life thing, I thought, was handled beautifully. And it is an example of the moments and the space the show is taking and these quiet hours before this Code Black kicks in that I think is going to be the beginning of the dominoes of the rest of the day of the season.

1:01:44I thought that this was just a lovely character moment. I think they are doing a really good job with Robbie. Perhaps last season with some of the flashbacks and the longing looks at his mentor's memorial and it being the anniversary of his death and all this stuff. This season, I feel like they're doing a little bit more show don't tell with him. And like you said, riding to work without a helmet. which Noah Wiley has since commented on saying like that is important. And the interaction with the Tree of Life survivor, talking about faith, talking about their religion and not, I don't think they always -

1:02:21Andy Greenwald:And his midlife crisis. And his midlife crisis, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just more interesting TV to make the season about a character's current life pitched forward as opposed to the character in his current life, you know, obsessed with the trauma of the past. Like it is just much more, and much more in keeping with I think the spirit of the pit which is a show about immediacy and is in real time so it's just it's a more interesting characterization for the lead I noted with interest that this was the episode of the season I assume there's only one per season due to workload that Noah Wiley is also the credited screenwriter of and so now we know that was the Hawaiian prayer episode last year right yes and this is the Langdon just has long quotes about fatherhood available to him due to his long time on the bench you know I think there's a moment where you could look at that scene and be like, well, this is a little bit declarative.

1:03:14This is a little bit tell, don't show.

1:03:18Andy Greenwald:It's even bordering on corny. But there is an earnestness that's baked into the show that I don't bump on. And genuinely, the vibe that the show creates and harvests, like that scene, and that's the scene between the father of the young kid who has beads up his nose and can't sit still, Langdon and the nurse who's I just had I'm really struggling with names of the tertiary characters on the show but he's a new father about to be a father and that's been a right there he's a new father they're doing like he's just dealing with like the sleep schedule stuff and speaking of texts we don't send each other but Taylor Swift does I was like I don't know if I've ever had a more satisfying interaction with other men than the 45 seconds they spent taking beads out of that child's nose like These three guys are all gathered together raising this boy, freeing his nose of colorful baubles.

1:04:09Andy Greenwald:They quote something, and then they all look at each other. They get the job done, and they fucking fist bump. Why can't it ever be that easy? We have to do 15 years of a podcast just to be honest with each other. You know what I mean? That was so efficient. Yeah. I thought that was lovely. How do you feel about the fact that they have now kind of like zeroed in on like the kind of power radiating off of Catherine Lanassa? And she gets a lot more like kind of cutaways and she's in there a lot more. And, you know, it's an interesting remix of, I think, the characters. I think it's good, again, thinking about the show as, if you're just thinking about the execution of like X's and O's, to bring you back to offensive game planning.

1:04:54Andy Greenwald:It really works for me hour by hour to understand that there is, it is a heliocentric show in the sense that she is, Dana is at the center and everyone else is orbiting around her and they can touch back if we know what's at the heart of it all. You know, just geographically, having her charisma there works for me. And then you think about the orbit because finally Al Hashimi and Robbie split up and they had a cute little interaction about like seeing other people and going in reverse orbit of each other. Yeah. Which I was glad for because the benefit of the show moving this quickly is you don't have a lot of time to get annoyed or get put out by things.

1:05:31Andy Greenwald:It's also just like they first meet, he's put off by it, but then over the course of a couple of patients and maybe a couple of hours, he's like, I'll make a joke, she makes a joke back, we're starting to loosen up a little bit, it's okay. It's reasonable, but also the dynamic, that initial dynamic was starting to wear thin. And I think we're headed towards more of it as there seems to be some sort of code black, like hospitals are going offline and that seems to be... That's in the trailer, I don't know. No, no, the end of the episode, they get the call saying they're about to get hit with everything from another hospital because of a code black there.

1:05:59Right, yes. And so there's a suggestion that there's some tech. But he's like, that could be anything, right? Yes. It's in the trailer that they're like.

1:06:06Andy Greenwald:Well, you told me that. Yes. Yeah, we have not watched, you haven't watched Ahead. No, I haven't watched Ahead, but in the season trailer, it's like, we gotta go analog. I just found the character who exists, at least in the opening hours, only to be slightly different than Robbie, but is just following him everywhere. I'm glad that they split up. Yes. Like, that was a smart use of that. Are you, can I just. can I treat this a little bit like school? Like, can I pop quiz you on something? Sure. What exactly are they extracting from Louie's body? I think he has some sort of like, uh, I don't know.

1:06:43What are they going to do with that? I was going to give you like a, kind of a, a half-hearted, like I, I sort of understand that. Yeah. He's obviously retaining a lot of fluids. I would say so. Five, five jugs worth. So it's a liver problem, I bet. Yeah. Because of his alcoholism.

1:06:59Andy Greenwald:He does have alcoholism. and I don't know why they can drain that much, but yes, there's probably some organ failure going on there. Do you watch those scenes with increasing dread that something else is going to come out of him, that there's some, that that is a misdirect? I don't know. Louis's been there for a while now. I mean, he was there in the first season, and I don't know what's going to come out of him or how one of these new kids are going to fuck this up. Or what anecdotes, including Pittsburgh's connection to the history of fireworks. That's true. I do enjoy that. The only other notes I had from this episode were I could take or leave the racing crew.

1:07:37I mean, it's Western Pennsylvania.

1:07:40Andy Greenwald:Yeah, but they're from Georgia. They're up there for some reunion. And then all of them seem to have a succession of problems and they all share pills. Which, I mean, look, who among us didn't live in New York City in their 20s? I'm just saying you grow out of that. I like the ways for a show that we sometimes ding, or at least we point out the ways in which it is overtly, I mean, sad to say, anything about good people trying to help in an overloaded system is by definition political. And we point out when the nurses like gathered together, like the course of the musical first season, the subtle ways that the show does it as well, like the fact that Robbie has a lot of experience removing tasers from people and how you treat that.

1:08:22Or the fact that they have to send, the insurance is having them move a surgical patient to another hospital because it frees up a bed. And I thought it was good that they had some sort of a mixed variety of reactions to that rather than just like, this is unacceptable that insurance does this. It was kind of like, well, it frees up a bed and it does this. And it's like, this is how the system works.

1:08:46Andy Greenwald:Are you happy that the security guard guy can get the bed pool running again? like the fan duel of the pit is back up and running I'm excited for next week's episode I haven't watched ahead but I am excited for next week's episode in that regard you think something big's coming yeah I think usually at around 4 they start to and for people who are just listening I just changed gears I wonder what the other option was if you were audio only what they thought was happening with you do you want to do a few minutes of sports talk or are you tapped out I'm curious, where do you want to go with it? You had a Phillies take you wanted to jump into.

1:09:25It's interesting how many things in my life that I like are under full-on assault. Like democracy? To being like, to collapsing. And I don't know if that's extreme, but... All right. And I'm happy. I am honestly happy for Sean and the Mets. Like, I'm glad that those guys...

1:09:47Andy Greenwald:Come on, I feel like you... Yeah. but the Dodgers thing has been getting to me a little bit this week and I'm so glad the Mets got Peralta instead of the Dodgers because if the Dodgers got Peralta I do think like people would be like we're not going to fucking spring training this is ridiculous and you know I've been very similarly if the Ellisons get Warner Brothers like I just want to know where your economic No it's college football that I've been thinking about a lot because of the because not because of the portal because I think the kids should be able to transfer but Wait till I tell you about what Amazon's done to wages It's going to blow your mind, but we'll get there.

1:10:21Andy Greenwald:We'll get there. No, but I did breathe a sigh of relief that somebody besides the Dodgers got Peralta from the Brewers. Do you feel, though, economic inequality aside, how does it make you feel knowing that the Phillies have essentially done nothing? They've lost depth, lost players, still have Nick Castellanos on the books, and yet still somehow have the fourth highest payroll in Major League Baseball. Well, they take care of their guys. You know? Yeah, it's a union town. Yeah. I'm annoyed at the running it back thing, but at the same time, baseball is so weird and fluky that all these... Yeah, they could be healthy and hot and they could win it.

1:11:09I mean, probably not with the Dodgers,

1:11:11Andy Greenwald:but they could. No, it's a race for second place. No shame in that. I was excited by like, I can't remember who I saw talking about the Dodgers were scared of the Phillies. That was like who they thought the basically the World Series was with. It didn't feel that way during that series, but... No, it did not because, you know, and I can relate. Like when you reach a certain age, like your highs are still pretty high, but you don't get to them as much. You know, you can go real cold for a couple of weeks. Yeah. I believe in Justin Crawford. I do not necessarily share the same optimism about Andrew Painter and whoever else we've got coming up to pitch.

1:11:47Andy Greenwald:But you made a very, and this is interesting, I thought, you threw on the Burgundy P within minutes of the 49ers game. You were ready to run to baseball. Bro, I was watching Flyers Mammoth last night. That's crazy. How's that feel? This always happens. The football dwindles, and it is the thing that unlocks my true fucking sports obsession. It's just like watching the Rams-Bears game. I was like, that was an absolutely amazing reward for watching an amazing thing. Yeah. I just want to watch sports all the time. I'm with you on that. I just want to watch sports all the time. And then football goes away and you're like, fuck, it's the all-star game for NBA.

1:12:33You know what I mean? So I'm just kind of like, I'm scraping around for stuff.

1:12:37Andy Greenwald:It's pretty fun watching sports when you don't care. I know you always like to pick someone to root for and I probably inevitably do that too. You care too much though. But I care too much. It's just not healthy. Amanda Anasimova, I'm like, one night, I'm just like, go get him, girl. And then I'm done. I have no idea whether she's still playing tennis. You have never, ever supported anyone the way you supported that woman for three and a half hours last year. I've never seen passion like that. That was during the lightning storm of the Cowboys game. Oh, right. Right, when we had to look at something else briefly.

1:13:10Andy Greenwald:And you just took all your chips and you went all in on your girl. The passion is good. Yeah. The passion is good. We'll be back on Monday. We're going to talk about Night of the Seven Kingdoms and industry. And I'm sure we'll have other news and notes to go over and keep Kai here for 90 plus minutes as we discuss the Phillies offseason and institutions under assault. Just wealth inequality. I think that we did a good job today of being a little bit flighty but keeping the main thing the main thing. oh I also like the backdoor Jalen shout out that's good yeah Kaya McMullen is our producer and Kai Grady makes us look good and uh we'll be back on Monday I hope everybody has a great weekend

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