‘Paradise’ Season 2 Finale With Mina Kimes. Plus, ‘Euphoria’ S3 Trailer, ‘Something Very Bad Is Going to Happen,' and 'Project Hail Mary'

22:37Andy Greenwald:I'm like, this is really cool. There's a lot of ideas here. There's a lot of emotion. There's a lot of tension. that filmmaking is good, when they are stacked on top of each other, I have to tap out. Maybe that escalation is a good thing. Yeah. But for me, it isn't because the thing that I struggle with with the genre is the inevitable. And look, this is a whole other conversation. Like horror really works, especially for young filmmakers, because it is a tried and true recipe that you can throw different things in. Also, in the case of this show, it's an example of post-COVID production tricks of like, let's just get five people and have them in one set, basically.

23:15Right. And like horror excels at isolation, at like, you know, a limited sort of like, like a limited canvas of like characters to play with and making them be in opposition to each other because they're stuck in a place together.

23:29Andy Greenwald:What I struggle with, separate and apart from my nervous disposition, is that once you get onto the prescribed horror track, where these things go is inevitably a place of extremity and horror and violence or death or jump scares when I'm more interested in a more quotidian friction, let's say, in terms of like the things that are inspiring Hayley Boston and her collaborators on the show to make this series, which I think comes from, you know, places of like anxiety and mistrust and uncertainty about traditional marriage tracks or meeting your partner's family and all of that. generally I just I'd rather the show that stays there not that takes it to this extreme but yes people listening to our show will understand that if she if Rachel goes to visit Nikki's family and Nikki's families happen to be all Cold War era spies I'd be like this is the fucking shit right this is awesome sometimes because that's my happy place genre there's Cheerios there's Honey Night Cheerios and yeah I getcha that's what I'm trying to express like I really enjoyed the exercise of watching the show and it gave me a lot of good feelings especially because you told me not to watch it last night.

24:40Andy Greenwald:So I started my day with it instead of ending my day with it. Yeah, I don't know if it's a nighttime show for you. The mechanics of it are really interesting because it's also borrowing from that pronounced must-watch next episode prescription. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that that's built into, hey, when you're writing these scripts, make sure there's something that happens in the last two minutes that people cannot stop from clicking next episode. And everything from the pit to whatever else does that. now, Paradise. There's something specific in, I think, a lot of Netflix shows, and I've noticed, like, you know, with the prestige crime Apple shows, where you get to the end of an episode, and you're like, oh my god, the daughter did it.

25:22And then the next five minutes, and it's like, oh my god, the new nurse is in a headlock. And then the next five minutes of the next episode is like, it's okay. We're fine. Or it's not that, it's something else. To do that with horror is hard, because the thing that I was hearing the most from my wife, and I honestly echo her, is like, she's got to get the fuck out of there.

25:43Andy Greenwald:Yeah, why doesn't she just go? Yeah, and now what I imagine is going to happen, just based on Rachel's weird tattoos, her interesting backstory of never knowing her mother, and she has an agoraphobic father, and what has led her to this place, and et cetera. And she has obviously some panic issues. What I think is going to probably be the case is that there is a reason why she is there, both on her side, not just the family side, and that there is a reason why she can't leave or she has not chosen to leave. But yeah, it's hard to have it be like, oh yeah, I know this is like the scariest thing you've ever seen in your life, but there's an easy explanation for it.

26:23And you should just stick through this wedding that obviously is doomed.

26:27Andy Greenwald:But do you know what's kind of interesting thing to think about is the A24 model these last few years, which has shifted a lot. especially now that they're kind of in their blockbuster era. The Elden Ring era. Yes, exactly that. But they were succeeding by identifying people with very passionate visions for something, generally in more modest framing, whether it's a horror story or whatever, and saying, okay, go make your movie, and we'll take a bunch of lottery tickets with these, and if one of them hits, it pays for all of them. and Netflix has the engine to do that, you know, and you could say that it's similar.

27:08Andy Greenwald:So the success of giving Haley Boston the right setup to make this show isn't that dissimilar in some ways from giving Joe Barton the setup to make Black Dubs, which is by no one's metric a traditional spy show, but works because of the combination of the right creator and the right vehicle for that creation. Like Black Doves, which we'll talk about when it comes back in season two. One of the reasons I loved it is I was like, this is a Netflix show. And I say that with an exclamation point, not a question mark. Like this works for this medium where we're expecting a certain type of return on our time investment of like a yes and attitude towards excess and energy and action and everything's bigger.

27:49Yeah.

27:50Andy Greenwald:And it works. And, you know, a show like this wouldn't hit, I think, and feel as exciting for the people who are watching it if it was on, I don't want to say a lesser streamer in terms of quality, but a lesser streamer in terms of market penetration. Let's say a streamer that doesn't feel confident charging$20 a month for its service, which honestly, we're at war. What the fuck? Okay, so I highly recommend this, Andy. I would say honestly a recommendation in and of itself is the fact that you went and finished this episode. Thank you. And like that you were like intrigued enough with a bunch of the stuff that was going on like really good performances really interesting filmmaking for a TV show and good writing and it's like I thought I hope I get to talk to Haley Boston because I really I'm really excited to go deeper into this.

28:39Andy Greenwald:This is the greatest example of it's not it's it's not you it's me. Before we get to Mina you did see Project Hail Mary this weekend. I did. It's basically the only movie out. It's just sucking up the entire box office right now. What do you think? Can I just say big picture? Actually, maybe hashtag the big picture. I have a lot of criticisms and I have a lot of compliments for this film, but my main thing was, I wish there were ten of these movies, movies like this a year instead of maybe three every five years. Now, when you say that, do you mean Andy Weir movies or do you just mean big original, funny...

29:17Andy Greenwald:Crowd-pleasing. We are all in this to entertain people around the world, maybe even to other worlds, and we are going to put our best and the brightest onto this particular project to execute that. But do you... Yeah. But what's the distinction you would make between this and, like, Super Mario Galaxy does that, right? Well, I think it's what you said at the beginning. Like, this is original IP. This is based on a book. It is... it's interesting. It's conventional in a lot of ways, but it would be a tough, the tone that it tries to, the needle that it tries to thread, and I think that it mostly succeeds in threading, which is like, this is at once a quite sober look at scientific process and cooperation, and also a utterly glib buddy comedy between Ryan Gosling and A Small Rock.

30:11Andy Greenwald:Like, that's hard to pitch that. Sure. and I think that it was committed to its own goal of entertaining and in a way that like and listen I'm going to have to you're talking to someone who's going to have to see Super Mario Galaxy mostly because I'm a Nintendo completist I won't bring my children that like but cynically we come here heartbreak feels good in a place like this just Andy watching Super Mario Galaxy just surrounded by toads Nicole Kidman not to be the old podcaster that I am or that we are, but it's like there used to be a lot of movies that tried to entertain adults and kids, that that was a wide net that people tried to do, that they didn't feel like, you know, the risk associated with that.

31:01Andy Greenwald:It's a, Super Mario Galaxy is a safer return on investment than Project Hail Mary, even with Ryan Gosling, even with Lord and Miller in a best-selling book. I think the problem is and we find this also with like Oscar season movies I think is that when there's only one of them it's gonna get a lot of slings and arrows also because this has to be the movie for everybody and then when one thing is the only example of that movie during a year you spend more time pointing out problems with it and like yeah that's a good point I I had a great time which maybe that's all that matters I feel like Lord and Miller are remember that like when there was the post jj abrams like let's give colin trevorrow a movie and all we're trying to do is find our next generation spielberg and storytellers who like well it was like let's draft people out of indies to make big big budget genre and usually superhero movies these guys are the ones who can do that and i know that this is probably their first live action opportunity to prove that but as someone who has been in the sick day trenches watching Lego movie and Mitchell's versus the machines and all the Spider-Verse movies multiple times.

32:08Andy Greenwald:These guys are preternaturally skilled at making you laugh and have a little bit of heart to them and having enough twists on the classic story, like Hero's Journey, that it works. Like the things that I was reading about that were additions to the movie, like the Don't Go Crazy room or the Carl character. And I know Drew Goddard wrote the script and he's very, very good at doing this thing. And I'm sure many of the good ideas were also his. I don't want, I'm not in the business of Drew Goddard erasure, but there is a Lord and Miller jokiness, jokiness. No, we're really going to do the joke here.

32:40Andy Greenwald:We're not going to apologize for it. That was welcome. I was trying to articulate this thing that I felt when, and this is spoilers for Project Hail Mary, but I think that's okay because that movie's made like$300 million in two weeks. Is the difference between how I felt watching the Gosling character do a spacewalk and seeing the purple and like the light changing in the sky as he's trying to like capture the astrophage thing. And, you know, it is a visual moment that I will remember so much better than anything that happens, let's say in like The Fall Guy, which is another movie that I liked, which is another movie that stars Ryan Gosling and probably uses more or less like the same amount of effects that that those two things are basically the same amount of aided by digital effects and it it really is like putting characters in situations where the characters are actually also amazed at what they are seeing yeah and this is the thing that Spielberg does it's a great point is when you watch Jurassic Park rebirth or Jurassic World rebirth or whatever it was with the scarlett johansson maherstall ali movie none of the people in that movie are that impressed by seeing dinosaurs and the actors don't seem to really like think it's that big of a deal and all the stunts are like i jumped off a cliff did 35 yeah you know somersaults and grabbed a wire over a canyon and it's all just kind of like divorced from physics but also bravery and fear and all these like human emotions and the thing that lord and miller got that I think is the thing that Spielberg understood is that the people in the movie need to reflect the feelings of the people watching the movie about how amazing this is.

34:30And we have gotten so far away from that because what we've been watching are a bunch of glib superheroes be like, I'll flip this fucking car with my finger because I'm a superhero.

34:39Andy Greenwald:I'm not surprised that you're blue because we all speak English. Yes. And the movie, and I think this, I know this comes from the book, the amnesia part is very effective for that reason because literally every man, I mean, I wish every man was Ryan Gosling. I wish we were two Ryan Goslings talking to each other right now. We could do some interesting stuff with video now. Tire on it. He wakes up and he's like, no, wrong star, turn around. Now we understand a little bit more about this and we feel alone. We feel scared as opposed to we're being played, you know, we're used to a character waking up in space and being like, oh, cool.

35:13Andy Greenwald:That's Thanos' home world. No problem. Be back before dinner. Right. I completely agree with you about that. And I also think that there's a human touch when you have filmmakers who are in control of the process or empowered to be in control of the process. And the human touch is what casts Lionel Boyce. It's what casts Sandra Huller, who is amazing in this movie. Like truly, and grounds sequences that - Did you ever see Anatomy of a Fall? No, I never did. I was going to do a funny joke about it, but - You want to talk about it? I would love for you to watch it. Maybe that'll be this. I mean, I just watched Enora, so I'm just really catching up.

35:51Andy Greenwald:You guys ready for my takes about that? Actually, I don't think you are. In the spirit of you being like, it's Andy Day Zero, and I'm ready to watch Euphoria. Yeah. I'm done trying to tame you. Just let me go wild. You're like, I'm Michelle Pfeiffer, and these lands are wild. I just have to meet you where you are, you know? Me being like, you gotta watch this, we've gotta do that. you can't tame me run free the truth is tell me tell me is it is it a norah week on this pod our eye message is like astrophage in that it's just like it's it's just it's it's like fissile material that is just appearing all the time um i i'll say and i'm curious where you feel about this i mean look everything i've come to understand about the book is that it is also a little bit lumpy a little bit hokey at times and also like 500 pages so their attempts to wrestle it down into this movie a book that everybody seems to be like you gotta listen to the audiobook version who does it?

36:54that's a great question I don't know you should be more prepared just saying I don't do audiobooks generally I can't retain information

37:01Andy Greenwald:but if you said like Tilda Swinton I'd be like I'll fire that up it's Mikey Madison at what volume so all that I think it's an impressive act of adaptation truly but like people's mileage may vary I actually wanted a little bit more of the Martian like scientist trying to save everything and a little bit less alien buddy comedy like I knew having been spoiled and I understand why it was in the trailer that that was where we were headed to a degree I did not know that that's what the movie was basically going to be and I wonder if Ken Lung knew that movie was that what the movie was going to be I also wonder that In this house, we love and respect Ken, and he's a phenomenal actor, and it's awesome to be in the biggest movie in the world, but I would say that he is underrepresented in this film.

37:53I do wonder if there was some extra footage of his character that maybe didn't make it to the final cut.

37:58Andy Greenwald:It's just like, we talked about this over text, but ultimately, all respect to the Iridians, I believe, and their intricate xenon weaving strategies, but like I'd go home. I'd go home. Now I know they've created a character who uniquely looks like Ryan Gosling and has no friends or loved ones so it's NBD to just detour and by the way I imagine somehow making plans in space is easier than making plans in Los Angeles. If you went home would you tell everyone the truth about what decision you had made or would you just be like I fixed it and then he went home too and it was all good? 100%. Okay that would be a lie you lived with.

38:38Andy Greenwald:Yes. You wouldn't be like, I just made the decision that I wanted to see if me and Sandra Huller could make something work together. First of all, what are you returning to? It's cold. You know what I mean? Like everyone's old now. You didn't know anyone to begin with. You're a hero. Hockey is the national sport. He did rivalries. Ready for a comeback. It's been rebooted multiple times. You can't quibble with this movie because you have to accept it. And I'm a big believer in that. I did think his generative AI language software really stepped up quickly. It was quick to learn. I think that if I had the opportunity to befriend a very cute species of rock aliens, and I didn't have like, oh God, who's going to feed my cat kind of situation back home.

39:22Andy Greenwald:That's my problem. Yeah. Like I would just be like, yeah, let's rock out here. Also, I'm super into time moves different on like this planet or out in space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can like wait out, like all your homies can die, and then you can come back. and just have crazy knowledge. And you can also be like, you also are really trusting that this dude who can weave anything will build you a biodome of the Pacific Northwest that you could just chill in for as long as you want without any problems. But there's also the secondary level of thinking, which is just like, okay, they build this biodome for me and I live with my robot friends on a beach and he comes visit to me and that's fine.

39:59Andy Greenwald:But what if you're a little congested and you're like, could I get some Afrin? And they're like, we don't have noses. I think they can build Afrin though. Out of metal? Yeah. I don't know. Like, what if you... Well, how did he build the ocean? You don't think he can come up with some antihistamine? I don't know what they can and can't do, and I need a little more knowledge. You know what I mean? Like, what if they're like, we'll make you all this... You know, couldn't be me. But like, what if you, let's say hypothetically, were a little lactose intolerant? Or like, you don't like onions that much.

40:26Andy Greenwald:I don't. Not raw, yeah. They're like, we grew verdant crops of Vidalia onions for you, human. Would you be like, no? They're trying to create a good dining experience for you. They're like, hey, yesterday the water was too hot. Today it's too cold. Like, let's find something in the middle. Like, I think that they work around what you need. They did. He did find and befriend a very, very friendly species. Oh, do you think, yeah, there's probably a little bit more of a hostile version of that guy. There are a couple movies that I remember about an extraterrestrial coming to our planet, for example, with nothing but love in his heart and a little light in his finger.

40:59Andy Greenwald:And we did not build him a terrarium so he could just chill out and teach us. No, you hooked him up with Reese's Pieces, though. One of us did. The Rylan Grace of his era did. But the representatives of the government... Yeah, Peter Coyote did not. They did not. Yeah. So it is asking a lot of our friends and neighbors in the galaxy. I always love hearing you talk about space and what you do up there and how quick you quit on humanity. That's the best thing about the movie, since we're spoiling it, is the reveal of how he ends up on a spaceship. Yes, that he was essentially... Great twist. Yeah.

41:30Andy Greenwald:Because that's the only way you're getting me up there, too. that is the only way and there's gonna be a sequel I guess pretty clearly yeah and this is a huge hit did you like the movie you're ducking it I really liked the present tense experience of watching it I would say that it probably operated at like such a kind of like winky kind of fun loving tone for most of it that emotionally it wasn't like as overwhelming for me but like honestly like it's so much better than 80 to 90 % of the shit I watch this is my point it is exceptionally well executed by people doing Is it 20 minutes too long?

42:03Sure. You know, like.

42:05Andy Greenwald:And a fun exercise that we don't need to do on this podcast is like, who other than Gosling could have pulled this off? Because it is a lot on him. I think it's like a list of, it may be a list of one. I think it may be a list of one, particularly because Lord and Miller tend towards comedy so strongly. And he is. The list of one is Bernthal. Oh, he's the other one. I thought you meant Gosling was the one. Gosling is not on the list. It's actually, it was Bernthal's part. Let me tell you something, big dog. Do it. You got to make me some Afrin. Matt Stuffy go to our interview you didn't know I was dealing with Super Rock it's a chat it's a conversation among friends with Mina Kimes we're going to talk about Paradise Season 2 full spoilers so watch that finale if you haven't already and then get in we also talked about Top Chef and the Philadelphia Eagles it was really good those are your three main topics those two things are my paradise so see you guys on Thursday snoring gasping during sleep feeling fatigued Wake up to ZepBound, Terzepatide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and adults with obesity.

43:09Andy Greenwald:ZepBound is an injectable prescription medicine that may help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. ZepBound should be used with a reduced-calorie diet and increased physical activity. ZepBound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. ZepBound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if ZepBound is safe and effective for use in children. Do not share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take ZepBound if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2.

43:46Andy Greenwald:Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop ZepBound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, depression, or suicidal thoughts before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking ZepBound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

44:14Andy Greenwald:Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit ZepBound.lily.com. Zetbound and its delivery device base in QuickPen are registered trademarks owned or licensed by Eli Lilly and Company, its subsidiaries or affiliates. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like analyzing plot twists, TaxAct guides you step by step to make sure you get your maximum refund. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts, or let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more.

44:49Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details.

45:17Andy Greenwald:clinickids.com slash 100kk. That's clinic with a K. Clinic Kids is registered at 501c3 nonprofit. All right, we're joined by Mina Kimes, who was nice enough to come down and talk about Paradise with us. I thought we were talking about the Reekwollen signing. See, that's the thing. Love it. Thank you, me too. Mina just started talking about Paradise. It's more animated than I've seen her in years of talking about Reekwollen. I've been. Do you wish you could ask Alex to go back and not sign Adore Jackson? Last year? Yeah. He didn't hurt us. No. We're going to get into how. I have other issues about last year, but we'll get to that.

45:54Well, it's also what we learned from Paradise is the villain might be the hero, you know? So it could be that Sidney Brown was sent from the future to do nothing. To fix our cap space. We're not talking about the Eagles cap situation yet. I'm sorry. I derailed it. We are talking about Paradise, which ended its second season last night and has become, I don't know. It's like somewhere for me between a Sheridan show and a real, not a real show, but like a show that I take deathly seriously. Big boy show. So let me say this. Like, this was a great example of, I thought Paradise at its best, and also 25 minutes where I was just like, I can't remember who this person is or why they're in the prison downstairs.

46:30What's your relationship to the show, and how did you feel about the finale? I love the show. I think to your point, though, it does occupy a weird space between, it's like caught, much like Link, perhaps, travels between timelines, caught between timelines. it's like there's like a dose of prestige and a dose of hamminess that we don't really see mixed together a lot in television right now i right now i'm watching paradise in the pit like a lot of people and it's such a throwback combination sure like two shows that feel like they're from another time yes but i really enjoy it i also am extremely here for time travel shenanigans in all of my content.

47:10So when it started making that clear pivot this season, I was seated. I was ready to go on Reddit. I was ready to revisit a lot of my thoughts. All the old muscles woke up. Yeah, but I'm really enjoying it. I thought the finale was great. We knew it was kind of headed towards bringing everybody back together. And I wasn't sure how many of the questions about Alex would answer. And I think it answered just enough to satisfy us while keep us wanting more. Yeah, well, we found out that Alex is not, in fact, like a little guy hanging out in like a room somewhere controlling the universe. It is, in fact, a supercomputer that is essentially was built by Dylan slash Link, you know, what, 10 years ago, I imagine, although he doesn't know how old he is and where he's, and it seems unclear about his own past other than the fact that he doesn't know his parents.

47:55Andy. I want to ask, before, I have a take. Yeah. Let's hear it.

48:00Andy Greenwald:I'm going to unload it, but I did want to ask, we want to, I want to do a test of like your engagement with the show. Okay. Because I learned that Alex was the wife of... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. In the previously on Paradise last night. That was when I learned that. That's my level of attention. So you've been sitting around being like, Alex is an interesting name, not like, wow, Alex is the same name as Henry's late wife who was afflicted with Huntington's. Okay. Uh-huh. Okay. I'm not here to lie to anybody anymore. Just mask off. All right. So you are not locked in. You're not like one of those people on Reddit Who's like, if you combine the letters and Alex, they spell out the different names of the different characters from two seasons.

48:41Andy Greenwald:Did you know that X is a nickname for Xavier? I learned that last night, too. My take is, after watching this finale, that Paradise is lost on 2.5 speed. It is Paradise for the podcast generation. Because the fact, you could look at this, you can engage with this show two ways. You could be like, I cannot believe that there was a scene on television in 2026 when a undergraduate interrupts his class to say, I invented the most powerful computer of all time and I'm carrying it with me in a briefcase, you boring old fuck. And that was just that one scene. The guy's like, cancel all my meetings. We must build this computer.

49:19Andy Greenwald:Lost, that would have been a season. Yeah. Yes. I don't know if that's better. I feel like maybe this is what we have. Too much is happening? Well, I don't know if like drawing everything out the way we did 20 years ago or even 10 years ago or even five years ago was better. I would just say that this is a very aggressive choice to tell the story they want to tell in a very limited amount of time. Yeah, there's like something about it that maybe lacks a little bit of mystery or mysticism. Not that there isn't anything confusing about Paradise or that there isn't like, I suppose, any like literary backbone to what it's doing.

49:50But like Lost, you'd be watching it and there would be these biblical allusions and there would be. there was almost like a kind of unknowability to Lost until the very end which is what people I think reacted so negatively to in some ways I thought it was fine bold I'm on record being like I was definitely not a pitchfork situation for me where I was like this is awful it negates the show

50:12Andy Greenwald:that's because you weren't a talking head then you couldn't go on first take you can't go on television and be like it's fine when we podcasted about the Leftovers finale and you brought up all your feelings about it Do you have a lost person? I don't. I was not a lost person, actually, despite loving everything else that David Malafs ever made passionately, maybe more so than anything else in television. I mentioned Pluribus. It was interesting watching this after Pluribus, which is the maybe 0.5 speed version of your show. And I loved dearly, but Engage was actually some of the same themes as Paradise.

50:43And I feel like I hold space in my heart for shows at both of those paces. I do question how they're going to wrap this up in one more season, which we can get to later. but I didn't mind it.

50:56Andy Greenwald:Let's talk about the finale and maybe you guys can explain some things to me. Why did they have to blow up the bunker themselves, essentially? I know that some people were against it and I know that luckily the psychiatrist in charge of Utopia, Dr. Tarabi, thanks guys, after knifing someone to death in the shower, although maybe not. Clearly not. Maybe not. She can come back in some other capacity because there's already somebody traveling back in time. Which she also didn't kill her. Okay. At 100 % she's not dead. It was just more she needed a rest. And that was a great, great shower pressure.

51:30Anytime a psychotic killer is stabbed and they don't check the body, it's 99 % chance she's alive. That was a big knife though. I think it's more likely that James comes back a la Dylan.

51:39Andy Greenwald:I believe deeply in the power of therapy, psychotherapy. But I think that she's a little bit out in front of her skis. You have to understand. Running society and murdering people. There's just not that many people in the cabinet anymore. You know what I mean? Like, you saw that control tower room when she's like, I do Exodus. It's like the woman there is also the woman who works at the diner, you know? There was that point. I was like, the fiction of the show, maybe this is why they had to get out of the bunker, is that this is either the best and brightest or the most connected. Yeah. And then you see the person whose job it is to type going like, yikes, things seem to be going haywire in the executive suite type, type, type, type.

52:17Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Why did she get to go there? I don't even remember, honestly, what the criteria was for people to get into Colorado, though. How did they pick the 2 ,500 people? She helped her design the community. Dr. Tarabi did. Yeah, the psychologist helped. She did the psychological profiling. I'm okay with her being there. Wait, hold on. I'm fine with her being there. I just feel like I didn't... When she's the chief executive, it was a little bit surprising. The chain of command after both presidents went down and Sinatra was missing, not something they planned for her, clearly. They did not. And the entire plane full of Congress didn't make it, right?

52:50Andy Greenwald:Yeah. See, I remember some aspects of the show. The nuclear meltdown had been initiated at the same time as the lockdown. It was like two things in conflict, and there was no way to stop it. But it was on purpose to, let's tear this whole thing down, right? I think it was Cal's son did something with the German guy to be like— The meltdown. Yeah. Because they wanted to force it to open the doors so people had to leave. Right. At the same time, the people in the tower initiated a lockdown, so it was like a— Because the militia was trying to get in. So it really remains chain of command issues, just communication.

53:18So is your question like, why did they start the meltdown in the first place?

53:22Andy Greenwald:The thing about the show that I really admire is that it is so confident with its core convictions and its story that things just keep happening. And there's rarely a moment to be like, why did this happen? But that's okay. It's okay. Look where we are now. We're going to the Denver airport, a place that I would never go intentionally. So I really understand. Denver airport's got some stuff to it. Yeah. Have you ever read about it? No. There's supposed to be like an Illuminati headquarters underneath of the Denver airport. Oh, underneath the Hell Horse? Yeah. Like that's actually... Like there's a lot of like art and like iconography in the Denver airport that's like very Illuminati-coded apparel.

53:58Andy Greenwald:You guys have awesome Reddit searches. You gotta come on for a second with Jason Concepcion. Okay, sorry. So it happens. Yeah. And we're... I don't know. I don't have any question anymore. We're cool with it. It's time to leave the bunker. I'm going to start with the end because I thought this was like an interesting place to put this show. You mentioned how are they going to tie this up in a season. I also am like, what happens now? Because for better or for worse, and even though she had some moments of vulnerability, Sinatra's been the antagonist for the first two seasons and now we apparently are going to be without her for the season three now on a Dan Fogelman show.

54:35As people have said, no one ever really dies. Particularly this show. Yeah, and no one's ever really gone. so I'm sure we can still get some more Julianne Nicholson in flashback. And she could become a time traveler herself. But I wonder whether or not you guys had any feelings about what a non-Samantha, non-Sinatra show looks like. Well, I thought this finale episode, aside from all the science fiction, answering the questions and the time travel, which we can get to, one of the most abrupt turns was just having her completely change her personality in the finale. 100%. which I, part of me is like, finds it a little sus after she was such a big bad in season one and vaguely, you know, demonic, but, and took a gunshot to the sternum and then immediately was just like, I'm still bad.

55:21Andy Greenwald:I don't know a lot about Stitches, although I do watch The Pit, but I feel like had you been shot here, stretching to rescue children from an elevator is a, you know, would present problems. If you are to believe that her revelation, it could be two things. One, that her son is alive in some form or her revolution and I think this is core to the finale that Alex is working that everything she did was in service of creating this technology we could talk about what it did and it had it she finally had it affirmed to her that it was actually working suddenly she's free to not be a psychopath anymore it took the edge off right it took the edge off it took the edge off I find yeah I think though your question about what would the show look like without her going forward it's unclear who then would be the antagonist.

56:07Right. Now, I mean, obviously, there could still, like, all these sort of dystopian shows, you could always find another band of rebels in the next town over. Like, now these people are basically going to be wandering around the West looking for a new home, I guess.

56:23Andy Greenwald:Which, by the way, seems fine. Everyone out in the world seems pretty kind. Yeah, you know what? That's the funny thing about this show is that for the most part, you don't really have the walking dead. like we've decided to create a religion out of a baseball bat kind of things. You know, like you may have quit walking dead by the time that happens. However, that's actually what you sounded like on Thursday during Philly's opening day. Like my entire personality now is this team. And then it got real quiet when we lost the next two games. Sorry. It's a long season. I really enjoyed the first half of the season more when it was just like, okay, now we're doing this.

56:57Andy Greenwald:That was fine. Like, let's do this. Let's show a different side to what has happened with the world. And then once everyone locked onto their character tracks to make the plot move, and once the show telescoped the distance by train from Atlanta to Colorado to about 48 hours, the menace of the caravan— Well, technically, they didn't really have to stop anywhere else. That's true. So I don't know how long train travel takes if you're never stopping. I think what Alex did was go back in time and empower President Biden to really make cross-country high-speed rail a reality. And we are now benefiting from it.

57:31Andy Greenwald:That's right. Maybe that was a passion of Cal. Also, a lot of rail travel just works in this show because this episode made it clear that Sinatra traveled by underground rail car 100 miles there and back all in one day. And she's like, what's up? Something going on? He's like, oh, nice to see you. You're going to die today. She took that well, I thought. But yeah, I just think that, look, there's any number of people now, I suppose, are viable participants in this time travel scenario. And perhaps Marsden comes back in some capacity. He's never left. Oh, you mean like in the present tense? He comes back as like an actual cow, but like not the president.

58:12Just a guy who's like... Welcome return, by the way. For sure. When he was back. It's great. It's interesting. I'm enjoying the new season of Jury Duty, but like... Yeah, it's... He is the missing... Well, he's on... He's on Friends and Neighbors this season. It's like, you get one season of Marsden. Just the comic relief of him alone. You're talking about sort of next season and the loss of the antagonist. For me, I want to raise a question, which is I think for the first season, one of the reasons it worked so well was that the catastrophe felt realistic because it was a climate change. You know, we all know episode seven was this incredible episode because it felt a little real.

58:48And it was shot different. And it was, I think, acted differently. There's a lot about it. But the apocalypse is triggered by something that does feel sort of vaguely realistic. Now that the show is firmly entering this different part, it's a science fiction show, and it was arguably before, but it feels much more so now. Do you feel that the menace of the climate change and the realism of this could happen to us? Because that's, to me, what made the first season feel menacing and dangerous. I think you're really onto something. Because I had hoped that maybe if something like this was going to be happening and the season finale that it would mirror the seventh episode of the first season and that we would get this kind of like gripping like verite take on it and it was very good but it was like very shot on fox lot kind of vibes and i wonder now So, to your point about like, how do they wrap this up?

59:42Like, are they going to try and go back in time and solve climate change? Or are they like, we're just trying to make the present better and learn the lessons? Like, what is Alex actually doing? Exactly.

59:53Andy Greenwald:She does intentionally I'm over almost there. She does say that we need you. I'm writing a blank check because this is about our stopping. It's about climate catastrophe. Yes. Yeah. I think what we're seeing, though, is an interesting exercise in. I'm sorry to go back to not the time travel but the time literally in terms of the speed of the show resolutions on shows like this are rarely as satisfying as the delicious tension of the questioning and it can be stretched too far like with Lost and people start to get impatient but a show like this that really puts down its marker that one of the central themes emotionally is going to be Xavier looking for his wife and these kids need their mom and what happened to her they really answered that they identified her, they told her story he found her quite easily and then everything was fine.

1:00:36Andy Greenwald:You know what I mean? They hopped on a train, they brought a baby, and now they're back with the kids. I don't think Dan Fogelman and his team are wrong that actually seeing Presley hug her mom does not need to be held at tenderhooks for that. That doesn't need to be delayed. It's a nice moment. But it's, okay, that's resolved, and now we're on to the next thing. And once you go into that, let's resolve things, let's tap everything on the head and push it down, that can be less satisfying than we think it might be. Everything is now locked into this. The point of the show is not to have these interesting questions about, climate or who we are to each other.

1:01:08Andy Greenwald:It's about what's under the Denver airport and what's it going to say. I think the things that were most interesting about this particular season and the best episodes were a little bit removed from those core questions, which were the two bunker episodes. The one with Shailene Woodley where she's holed up in Graceland and then the one, I thought, the mailman episode before, where they're in the bunker and they have to rebuild society. Those, to me, were the best episodes of the entire season because in the first episode, it wrestled with climate change and made us feel that, those brought me back to the pandemic, those two episodes.

1:01:39And I felt like, oh, wow, I'm really feeling this. I'm so tense watching these. Whereas the actual questions of the season don't quite carry that way. I like them because I love sci-fi and time travel and stuff, but they don't have the same impact. Let's talk about the sci-fi part then. Yeah. So Alex has been teased over the course of the season and we got some glimpses that, first, obviously, we knew that Dylan was the kid who Billy doesn't kill because Henry begs him. He's just like, I think you're here for a reason. Here's a napkin for your nosebleed, but in a minute, this kid's going to walk through the door and please spare his life, and he does.

1:02:20Alex is mentioned multiple times when Link is talking to Geiger about killing Alex. He makes it sound like a person. It doesn't seem like that's going to be the case, and then that's proved correct when we find out Alex is, in fact, a supercomputer that has been manipulating time, I think is like the best explanation we've gotten of it. We haven't really gotten a deep explanation as to like what Alex can do. We've seen some things. Yeah. Well, we've seen that like Alex, we've seen that Dylan is at once probably Samantha's child, but also exists in a world as a guy in his early 20s who has been to Caltech, right?

1:03:02But was also working at REI. So do you think there are multiple Dylans and Lynx? Like, what do you think is going on now? Yeah. All right. Let's go. Let's go. All right. So here's what we know Alex can do, right? We know Alex can predict the future. We see that at the beginning of this episode. It starts off by saying, which, by the way, is kind of realistic with AI and quantum computing, that a computer would be able to run a bunch of simulations and tell you things that are going to happen in the future, etc. We also know that Alex can hop on Amon's messenger and hit up the past. Right. We see that in the Jane episode.

1:03:34So those are the two things we've seen that it can do. And Sinatra is still learning. At the beginning of this episode, he tells her, that's the first time she knows that it can do these things. She mentions that she's seen what she believes to be an anomaly. We also know that Alex can predict the future because in the flashback at the beginning of this episode, it's why the scientist wants to shut it down. Yes. He's like, this is too much. Yes. So I think with regards to how much it can actually affect time, what's still unclear is whether or not Alex is setting in motion some of these coincidences or precipitating events in the past that alter either create multiple timelines, which is, you know, one of the solutions to the closed loop paradox is them.

1:04:20Just look right at me when you say it. Keep working. or whether or not it's just like little tweaks in the existing timeline Dylan to me is the core question like like you said is this the same kid how would Sinatra be meeting her son after seeing him die how that's what's still unclear

1:04:43Andy Greenwald:so when she says we get the bit of dialogue that's muffled the first time through in the end when we see what Sinatra says to Xavier Yes. And it's, I need you to do this. Why would I do that? I believe you already did. And gives him the card that says user X. Right. Right. So is the goal, you know what? I don't know why I'm looking at you. Is the goal to reboot reality so this never happens? Yeah. Or? Well, then you're getting real close. So here's the other thing that I need, I'm trying to figure out. Like the Jane thing was so anticlimactic with Tarabi, like getting the jump on her, killing her maybe in the shower.

1:05:22Finish the job! But Jane seems to be someone that Alex has been hunting through time. Yeah. Like, what is the message? She can be stopped. She can be stopped. Why does she need to be stopped? And what does she do eventually that needs to be undone? Yeah. Like, so, is Jane someone who will come back the same way Dylan has come back or Link has come back in different forms? And would she kill Xavier? would she kill Dylan like is the third season because if that's the case I think that is interesting but I hope that the character that comes back as Jane like the actor the actor but like the character I could use a couple of wrinkles other than I play we and kill people like I don't Dick in the box was like come on we're really hitting all the female serial killer hits

1:06:15Andy Greenwald:I don't know at least Link didn't make any pop culture references this episode which I appreciate That was a nice break. Well, he had a nuclear meltdown on his hands. True. And new fatherhood. Yeah. Literally a lot on his plate. I can't believe I'm doing this so soon after just absolutely bodying Chris with his love of Lord of the Rings. But I must say, a hallmark of the Legend of Zelda games. Yes, Ocarina of Time. But it's not an accident that he... I know. He's a lame link for a reason. ...is that there have been many, many games, but very few of them are sequels. It's just like, well, we're back in this world and there's always a Link and there's always a Zelda and there's always a bad guy.

1:06:50Andy Greenwald:And now it looks like this. Now you become friends with fish people. And now maybe there's a Jane and now there isn't a Jane or Jane is this now, an idea, not a person. So is that where we're headed? Yeah, I think Link is the most important character in the show now. Me too. And I think if we're to believe that Alex is a computer that's been tasked, crucially, we don't know if Sinatra programmed or whatever Alex to stop the first climate change event somehow or to stop the second one that we know is coming. because you remember the original Dr. Luge, I think his name was, told her, and then you think it's over, and then the world heats up again.

1:07:28And it's after she gets that knowledge that she goes and tries to

1:07:32Andy Greenwald:do the bigger thing. buy out the company. The other thing is that I don't know that she didn't invent Alex to get Dylan back. Right. Right. Or if that was going to be like, hopefully I can use a little bit of this computing power. Like I'll just build two or three data centers to work on Dylan. So we know that Alex is being programmed or whatever to do one of these two things. I think everything that has happened that I believe Alex has initiated has been oriented towards keeping Link alive, including the whole baby plot line. What is this baby here? Why did Xavier go to Atlanta? Why did he bring the baby back?

1:08:09All of it is in this moment, in this finale episode, when they meet for the first time and the divisions go crazy, he is altering the path again so that Link doesn't destroy Alex so he leaves to go see his baby. It's crucial that the baby comes back to the bunker as a precipitating agent, as a catalyst. Exactly, at that moment. And then he has like the vision of like Link in the tunnel, which I believe would have been like the alternate timeline had he not arrived with the baby.

1:08:36Andy Greenwald:Here's a baby question. And nosebleeds. Everybody's nosebleeds. I found it odd that a man meets his newborn baby and is like, I shall name this baby for a woman I had sex with once. The mother of the child. That also. Yeah. Unless, because everything on this show is pretty straightforward. Yeah. Is this Annie again? Yeah. Is he the father of... It's like an immaculate. No, no, no, no, no. So it really is just like in honor of... It's in honor of Annie, but I think... Shit. There's a little bit of an immaculate conception thing going on. Yeah, it is a little bit of like a... Like this is Jesus's baby.

1:09:16Link Jesus. Yeah. The Scorsese version of Jesus. If you really think about like, why did Xavier go to Atlanta? Why did they go through all of this? Why did he find that baby? Why did he weirdly keep the baby with him? Through the lens of everything that happens in the show is about Alex trying to manipulate people's decisions or time to get Link to not destroy him, I guess. We also don't know why Link wants to destroy Alex, but that's a whole other thing. How many nosebleeders do we have? Great question. there's really good question dylan and xavier did jane ever get nosebleeds no but billy did billy got no billy did because my homie the scientist was like don't kill that guy

1:09:55Andy Greenwald:season nosebleeds so do nosebleeds happen when they've tried to interfere when they've changed the timeline yeah i think so i think there are like basically like uh wow so my childhood was just rife with timeline aberrations but do you remember like the hayden christensen movie where he's like jumping through time jumpers revenge of the sith uh that i think that those there are a couple of characters who are just like moving through these timelines you think so so you think link is crossing timelines as a yeah i mean that the what happened what is how is he here is also yeah it's also like why does dylan if dylan is a kid who dies why does the kid who walks into that room like i'm the biggest computer expert and then also several years later is like i'm just working at an REI.

1:10:42Right. So like, are you, the economy? Well, he dropped out of college, right? Yeah. Okay. So that was, so there's not three. What we don't know is why do Dylan and Sinatra not know each other, right? Because if he was saved in some way, he would have known his mother. How were they separated from each other? That's one of the core questions. But like, for all we know, the Dylan who's like been, like there's a Dylan that's like reborn, basically, to your Annie point. Like maybe there are characters who are like born again. And the fact that Alex is going back to Jane's birth to be like, do something about this and everybody's just like, you're freaking me out.

1:11:18Right. That would suggest that maybe there's like cycles of life that go through these particular characters. Alternate leaps. Yes.

1:11:26Andy Greenwald:I will say from a broad television perspective, I am more bullish on the third season because I do think that the bunker was, we're done. I agree. If they stick to this, it's three seasons and out thing. It seems... It seems like they are. It seems like they are. Yeah. Unless they do, like, Legend of Zelda style. And then there's, like, Paradise Skyward Sword, you know? And it's like a whole... What is the... Other than the names of basic characters on this show and things that happen, what is the biggest question that you have that you want solved in the final season? Well, okay, well, I'll answer that.

1:12:01Andy Greenwald:But first, I want... No, the biggest thing that I want solved... Or answered for you, or clarified. this is why my engagement with the show I think is successful is because profoundly I don't think I care yeah I enjoy its mania yeah I enjoy some of the actors I have liked the show best when it has done one half of the of the lost sandwich which is just like the emotional backstory the backstory of these characters contain the hidden truths of their current whatever and we will explore those stories and we will It's a sturdy ship. Yeah. And ultimately, like, Sterling Brown is like, I will find my wife.

1:12:43Andy Greenwald:You know, like, that is a good, compelling show. I love it when a character— The Sinatra stuff, I've never even become interested enough in what she is or what she's doing to pay attention. But she's very, like, as a performer, so compelling that you're like, I'm engaged. But in one of the Alex Alt-Histories, do you think Sandra Huller plays that part? I just saw Hail Mary and I was like that's a Sinatra I would follow yeah but I don't know if that's like somebody like everybody's just like this I'm really fired up to work for this lady I don't know the Germans are really setting a good example these days I did want to ask about this the other paradise which is all the time when you're watching like the San Antonio Spurs and then all of a sudden Wemby leaves the floor and you're like okay and there are some good players but it's not Wemby and that's how I sometimes feel when either Sterling K.

1:13:36Brown or Julianne Nicholson's not on the screen specifically the teens the New Mutants we have to do something about the kids Marty mercifully somewhat marginalized in this episode well here's my big worry for season 3 is that Cal's son who we have not really quite addressed yet initiates a nuclear meltdown

1:14:01Andy Greenwald:he did do that yes he did do that and I don't know if he's going to pay the piper for that or anyone's going to get to the bottom of that or if he's going to be like look there was only one way to open the doors but I I don't know that I find them to be the most compelling group of characters there was a moment in this episode when what's her name Nicole Secret Service agent yes agent Robinson I'm sorry I call her Nicole it's been two seasons when she is suddenly quite injured. Yeah. And she has to, you know, people always love to say, go on without me in hallways where gas is leaking from places.

1:14:40Andy Greenwald:And she's like, I loved your father. Sure. Yeah. We all do. I need you to become the man he always believed you to be. I won't let you die here with me. Didn't Cal mostly drink whiskey and make wisecracks? In that moment, when it did appear that Agent Robinson was no longer going to be with us in the present tense. She's fine though. Chris Marshall, the actor, should have a phone call with her team because she got up to a regular this season and she was like, I can't wait to come back to the bunker. I have so much to do and they're like, our vision for you this season is to, we have a tank top and you're going to go into the prison colony and hang out with some wooden teenagers.

1:15:22Andy Greenwald:Oh, and a German. It didn't help that the prison colony was like staged like a theatrical production. It was. Of like the Glass Menageries. They were like literally just in a weird little dark yard. Like steam room. Yeah. And it never felt dangerous and nothing ever really happened down there. It was like Silo meets Schmigadoon. Well, this is the thing is like they also have three teens. And I understand they're like completely cut off from like cultural influences and stuff like that. Where are you going with this? Well, they're just vanilla. They're like, I am a young person. They're not like, there's not like one who's like, I have a drinking problem.

1:15:56You Hadley hacked into the entire mainframe. She's a hacker. One's like an emerging political leader who's like a podcaster in the Manosphere and has people gathering in town hall to be like, this guy's really speaking to us. I think it's telling that the only scene that I enjoyed with the teens all season long was when Presley and Cal's son reunited, started making out, and Xavier was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, too long. That was the only point where I laughed all season seeing the teens.

1:16:28Andy Greenwald:Because the other thing that we know. Presley. Yeah, Presley. We know this, but we were just reminded of it at the Oscars. Like Sterling Brown is funny. Oh, yeah. And he can. And I know that the part doesn't ask for a lot of humor. But when he plays the other things that he can play, again, when the show has room for it, that is what you sacrifice when you're just a freight train on the Paradise timetable going towards the finale. He doesn't get a second to rest in the show. Now that I'm thinking about it. Well, season one started with him jogging and season two ends with him running. And, you know, there's a nice little symmetry.

1:16:57The show's success, I think, is rooted in the fact that it makes you think something crazy is happening while the show itself is incredibly conservative. Like, something wilder than the world ending would be Sterling K. Brown, years separated from Terry, like, falls in love out on the road or something like that. You know, that there would be something different going on and, like, instead it's like, Nope, I found Terry. Everything's fine. Our kids are fine. We got out of the nuclear explosion. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Terry doesn't know about the shower sex scene. That's true.

1:17:30Andy Greenwald:Well, first of all, That's the real. The real crime scene is Dr. Tarabi's shower. That's right. That's where it all happens. That's right. Can we just discuss one last major point that really, really rankles me? The song Another Day in Paradise by Phil Collins from his seminal album Dot, Dot, Dot, But Seriously is an absolutely ham-fisted song about the perils of homelessness. This show deeply wants us to believe. Are these people not homeless? Yeah, they're basically camping at the end, which, by the way, they didn't plan for that at all. They're just by a bunch of trailers, just chilling. No, not that.

1:18:08Can we talk? It's like Griffith Park out there. There was not one. It's clearly Agora Hills. They're like, it's Colorado. I think by train,

1:18:17Andy Greenwald:we could make it to the Calabasas Savalry by sunset. I, there were, not one, two electric SUVs fleeing the bunker filled with nothing but gold lamps. Did notice that. I did not notice that. The second one. See, that's the kind of thing you notice instead of the character's name. That is why you're, you're a thing. I'm a prop guy, what can I say? It was the second one that Tarabi stopped and said, you greedy bastards. And she reached in and she pulled out all the lamps. and put in a man on crutches. Lamps would be useful, though, in a post-apocalyptic society. But there's no electric grid. You've been in Graceland.

1:18:54They have beans. They have a train. Tarabi should be actually just like, can we unpack why you stole the lamps?

1:19:00Andy Greenwald:And then also unpack the lamps. Yeah, and then I'll stab you in the kidney with a long knife. Well, okay. That's really all I had about this episode and the next season. What are you looking forward to, you know? You know, I like the time travel stuff and the questions and the loop. I love Looper. It's one of my favorite movies. So I'm here for how do you solve these paradoxes that we've been discussing. But they need to find a way to create the menace that is in the first season with the climate change stuff. I think in the second season, they did it with the Bunker episodes. They really, I was like, this is like the Graceland episode was probably the most dangerous.

1:19:38That was really cool. So how do you create stakes and danger beyond just telling us the stakes of like, how do we prevent another climate change crisis or how do we figure out who's like no no in the season you know you gotta find ways whether it's like a band of militia or marauders or whatever and then I would like to see them slow it down again for Sterling K. Brown because he's so good in those and I think in the Graceland episode he got some moments like that but then he was just so like you said so busy these final few episodes we didn't get that much with him and I find him to be such a compelling actor.

1:20:13Andy Greenwald:It's a really good point because there is no established antagonist for season three unless we are digging in the vaults and bringing people back. That's what I was going to say is that when the season started, I was like, Shailene Woodley's really good. You know, like she's a good actress. You crushed. And I was like, I thought it was a very effective use of someone who's probably not like, yes, I have seven months to shoot Paradise, like no problem. Like she was really good in the limited amount of time she was on screen. The show needs one more person. especially if Julianne Nicholson is not going to be in the show as like a current.

1:20:48So it needs. We should bring more.

1:20:51Andy Greenwald:We should bring more. This is very, this is a billism. They need one more. They're one guard away. It's true. One move away. Yeah. As opposed to the too many guys. I was going to say, yeah, we're looking at a desk now and we've got Sterling K. Brown sitting there giving Kate, like, did we really want to add another analyst to the desk? Well, I mean, it's, you know, we know Andy and I are fans of a team that are perhaps top heavy, you know, but like, I think. that they could use, like, Joel Kinnaman as the manifestation of Alex. You know what I mean? Or something. You know, like, they need something that's, like, another chapter.

1:21:23I think season three is going to be about whether... Yeah.

1:21:27Andy Greenwald:All respect. Not my favorite episode. Season three is going to answer the question, is Alex good or bad? We don't actually know, right? Because we know Link wants to destroy it. We know we... Like, is Alex actually trying to solve climate change and save the Earth? Or did Alex cause this all to begin with? Is going to be the core... Does Alex want Link to destroy it ultimately once it's done? Because then it has really restarted the world. Yeah, I got you. If I had to vote for one of those outcomes, it's not going to be that AI was a great personal assistant. Was looking out for us. Yeah. I don't imagine that that is going to be the solution.

1:22:05I think there will be a contingent of people who are like, I don't want to go back. Like, this is working for me. Like, this world is now better. you know yeah uh but i don't know i don't know where i land on whether alex has caused this or is trying to solve it because sam samantha's like reasons for using alex the way she does are still a mystery right as our dylan's desire it's dylan's desire to destroy it i guess you could say he knows something about what henry knew about like why he was like we have to turn this thing off see i'm really hoping that they pull it off they destroy it paradise the show never happened and we end with an alternate timeline of President Cal?

1:22:46President Cal is just doing a bracket you know on TV or something which I would love to watch he's hugging John Calipari who's still coaching Kentucky in the alternate timeline Kentucky's like winning the championship yeah and Acuff went to Kentucky

1:22:57Andy Greenwald:you are so onto something a weekly show in which that guy is president love it would do crazy numbers yeah it would crush the budget wouldn't even have to be that big a functional alcoholic Kentucky yeah it would just be like This is what he gets up to in between drinking, watching sports, and caring about people. Let me tell you something, Putin. Malik Monk once scored 43 points against Dukon. I want you to love his extended monologue on the fall of empires with different sports. Yes. Do you want to do a couple minutes on Top Chef before we let you go? Yeah, where are you at with it? Caught up.

1:23:31She's caught up. Caught up, yeah. And so if you're not caught up on Top Chef, the next episode is tomorrow night. Or tonight.

1:23:37Andy Greenwald:I think it's tonight on Bravo, tomorrow on Peacock. We're filming on Monday. You guys do Top Chef? pretty much every week yeah I mean this season has really reignited something in us we feel has it yeah so our take is that if I may no no you can be that Alex has fixed Top Chef and that the show has its mojo back yeah okay and not just necessarily in terms of the cast of the season but that production wise and editorially yes they have reinvigorated themselves and they are okay framing like after that first episode with Kristen helping Nana through the panic attack. I felt like they were taking some British baking show.

1:24:14Andy Greenwald:Congratulations, by the way. That handshake that you got has been shown in my home to my children. It's one of the most impressive things they've ever seen. Thank you. I lost for those who didn't watch. Some are saying it was the worst snubbing. Who's saying that? People. People have come up to me saying that. Tears in their eyes. I saw Von Miller after at the Combine. He beat me. And first thing he said to me was, are you still mad at me? You still bitter. Wow. Yeah. Well, these guys are pretty competitive. I mean, you can go look up our final cookie cakes and be the judge for yourself. But I thought that some of that vibe of like editorially, like who the judges are in relation to the contestants has been shifted slightly.

1:24:52Andy Greenwald:And I thought just like the challenges that they're throwing them into, that lack of handholding, Kristen's emergence in general as an exceptional host, I thought has elevated the show. Yes. And I think that they've done, while I do not envy them cooking outdoors in Carolina in what seems like a summer climate. I felt like in the past few seasons I was like I have no idea what city this is taking place in or why it feels like you guys are either in the studio or at Whole Foods and then like at a sports bar you know but this feels very like they're doing stuff like with the sweet potato challenge the pepper challenge where I'm like this really feels regional this is cool I think they've also really cast this season well with the chefs it almost feels like the last couple of seasons which I you know I loved of Chuck Tristan, the goat.

1:25:42Not the goat, but one of the... He's already like a Pantheon winner for me. But it feels like this season's a little slappier. I like that. There's some obvious frontrunners. You know, they're pretty clear. Your Lawrence's, your Rhoda's, your Anthony's. But they've got some chefs who are legitimately, like I'm kind of rooting against. The twins are like good TV. You know, they're busting each other's chops much more openly than I think usually the contestants would. good TV but I need them separated immediately I can't have I can't I can't have these two twins it's interesting because then we also have the the partners what do we think about this couple couple yeah it seems pretty clear from the jump that the woman is kind of dragging the husband or that the woman was the better chef but she obviously now she only has one arm one arm which is brutal she has the arm I was very we talked about this walking in here I was very worried that they would keep Nana who I'm sure she's a lovely chef and a lovely person and her food is great I could not watch another episode of Top Chef with this woman on my TV it was either she was going to have to go home or she was going to have to flip a switch and turn into one of the great chefs of all time and it was just tough I thought that the way like you said it was a little bit of an anticlimactic episode but I think they made the most of it to really be like, we're going to interrogate how bad you guys screwed this up.

1:27:10And I wonder if it had been tighter if they would have been a little nicer about the cooking. But since they all knew from the first moment that Nana's stuff got to this table, they're like, well, she's going home. So let's really push them.

1:27:24Andy Greenwald:I think they do things with, I believe, they historically have done a little play with time. I know that probably is maybe why you like the show. There's a version of that episode in which they rework it so Nana goes last or goes later or de-emphasize the early ones so that we could feel more tension until it's clear. Until, yeah. Yeah. That may not, it may have been impossible due to the edit, but she was one of the first chefs to go in this third episode. And I thought that they leaned into it in a way that made it more interesting. Everybody. Was bad. Everybody was bad. Even the winning chefs didn't do a great, great job with this one.

1:27:58They focused on Tom being like, I thought this was quite good. Like her like little spoonful of onion jam was good, you know?

1:28:04Andy Greenwald:No, but I mean, like, even the winners of this challenge didn't... They were fine. They were fine. There was no raves. I like Angry Tom, too, which is, I think, important. Yeah. Because it makes rewarding Tom feel like it's earned. Yes. Like, when he's like, this is awesome. Or Paul Hollywood. Yeah, exactly. Nana's in Last Chance Kitchen? Yeah, they're starting it now. They're starting it this week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. All right, so what else are we watching? Nina, what else? You can get your takes off. Well, yeah. So I mentioned I've been podcasting about paradise. We're flipping to the boys.

1:28:38You guys do the boys? Andy does. I love the boys.

1:28:40Andy Greenwald:The boy. I enjoyed my time with the boys, but it's not something I kept up with. By the way, my co-host, David Dennis Jr., our podcast is called Viewer Discretion. If you guys like the boys, go check it out. Mostly known for our Love is Blind coverage. I thought you said different. he said he was a thought that's been in my head this whole time is he said when Sterling Brown finally gets to Alex the only thing he's gonna do is tell him to delete the shower scene so Terry nevermind that's a more interesting show good for him that's the plot of season 3 go check it out but I'm watching The Pit as I mentioned we're about two thirds through Jury Duty company which I feel like Jury Duty you watch it and you're like wow the amazing thing is that they pulled off the ruse again.

1:29:28To me, the most amazing thing is that they're finding the most wholesome men in America. Like, where are they finding these guys? I don't know. These, like, the two guys who are just like, It's a miracle. Seems cool. Okay. And it is literally the secret sauce of the show, right? Is that they find these guys. I shot something with Ronald Gladden. It was like a pilot for a game show. Truly the nicest man. The first jury guy. The nicest man I've ever met in my life.

1:29:54Andy Greenwald:These people who cast jury duty should cast reality shows, right? To give good candidates a chance. Nobody wants to watch reality shows with a bunch of good guys. You need one good guy. President Cal's America, we do. There's less conflict. Who didn't watch Love is Blind with a bunch of guys who were like, I'm nice. What a show called Love is Good. That's a million dollar idea. Okay, sorry, a hundred million dollar idea. Are jury duty and Top Chef the only shows on television that make you feel good about humanity? I mean, I watched Neighbors, and so yes. I think the answer is yes. Good about humanity.

1:30:28The pit makes me actually feel good about that. I'm at reality shows. Yeah, I mean, for as beleaguered as the staffing, the staff of the hospital is, it's like, we're not so different. We're all just blood and bones, you know?

1:30:41Andy Greenwald:Is that actually a Perla monologue that you delivered to camera this week? It reminds us. I always watch a show separately from my husband while I'm running, and I'm almost done with Vladimir, which is the Netflix show. I didn't check it out. Which, you know, we talk about Paradise being unrealistic. Asks you to believe that Rachel Weisz isn't the most beautiful woman on Earth, which makes it a little bit hard to watch. But no, I'm enjoying that one. Can you do horror at all? Yeah. I really like something very bad is going to happen. Because we are also doing time travel in this podcast, and we haven't recorded the part that people listening have already heard, I'm debuting this for you even though I'm going to say it earlier to Chris which is definitely watch the first 15 minutes of very bad what is it called?

1:31:24Andy Greenwald:Something very bad is going to happen The first 15 minutes is really good then you should stop Does it get gross after that? Yeah then it gets like then it becomes a horror thing I already read the Wikipedia for it so I know everything that happens I haven't finished yet I do that Oh you do do that For horror For like gross horror Speaking of reality this is now officially can this be the watch after dark part for this episode? Sure Ooh wait can we get some green and white light because I know that that's what you're going to ask about I just want I didn't want to give you enough time to prepare I wanted to get like the honest thing she's always prepared for this it literally is my job she has no computer and she knows every character on paradise I just want everyone's like Sean Mannion everybody really likes him that's the offensive coordinator for the Eagles everyone who stays listening to this part knows yeah you want my thoughts on Mannion did you just get a nosebleed oh my god this is a moment Alex has been sent back in time to give me force me to give a different answer to you to erase the hitch roots from our playbook you want to ask about Mannion about Jalen Hurts about whether you're going to trade AJ Brown what are we what are we oh well I think the AJ the AJ thing seems baked in it's a bummer I was very much I was staking out my opinion oh because okay because my take officially and by officially I mean I texted Shio Kapadia this I didn't think he was getting traded But now it just seems too baked in.

1:32:47Andy Greenwald:I'm starting to... Well, the comp required for them to actually do it is a little bit prohibitive. I mean, it's got to be a first or bust, especially after DJ Moore got traded for a second. So the issue is, as you, I'm sure, know, the only way they can do it is a post-June 1st trade. And this is a team that's in after the drafts. This is a team that is competitive this year. So I think it has to be a really good pick. Do you think this is a standoff between Howie Roseman and the Patriots? or do you think something is already handshaky we're going to get this done after June 1st? I genuinely don't know.

1:33:19I mean Howie usually comes out on top in these deals so I think...

1:33:24Andy Greenwald:Keep saying stuff like that. That makes me feel good. I only want to be affirmed. It's almost impossible to talk to him about this stuff for me because he operates from a position of Howie has never made a mistake and Howie has the most intuitive, perceptive vision. Jalen Rager exists. It's been a while since you've invoked that name. Like you are like, this guy's already... Because he picks a bunch of dudes from the first round from Georgia. It's fine. Over the last few years he's been trading four guys as opposed to primarily trading away guys. And when he's traded away guys, though, it's gone well.

1:33:54The one that I'm watching is Tanner McKee. Yes. See if he's on the move. My take on this is that I think we are not so secretly in a soft rebuild right now. Ooh. Yeah. And I have only modest expectations for this team next season. I think it's last Fangio year. See, a soft rebuild, another way of thinking about that, I talk about this all the time is when a team much like Paradise has two timelines at the same time. So you've got the win now timeline and then you have the like future timeline and you start to slowly merge them. And that worked

1:34:25Andy Greenwald:in Golden State. So I feel like that's I think if I were to imagine what Hiroisman's doing I think he's thinking about like two years from now rather than right now. I think he is Alex. I think he's always thinking about that. Is AJ Brown link in this analogy because you're keeping him but you're trading him but you want to keep him on the team? Good. You don't? The roster's really good. The roster's still really good. Yeah, we just did the, my main show, the mean-and-com show, we did the Team Needs podcast and when I went through Philadelphia, I was like, why did we see for three? I don't know.

1:34:51Yeah. You really don't have a lot of needs on that. The edge is the need, but. We'll see. No Stalin. No, you know.

1:34:59Andy Greenwald:Yeah, what is your official take on The retirement of Jeff Stout? Stalin retirement, but also the Mannion and like, can they really do this? Can you do the surgery on a patient while the patient is trying to compete for Super Bowl? Can Jalen run a sophisticated McVay offense? I'm not worried about Jalen. I'm worried about doing it under Seriality. He's like a big... I'm a big Jalen guy. Protect Jalen at all costs. Yes. Yeah. I'm like Lane Johnson. That's my job. My classic WIQ caller over here. He's in Columbia. He's getting his blood changed. Thank you. That's what I would do. I think that Jalen Hurts is a quarterback who can succeed with a good run game.

1:35:34Russell Wilson was like this a lot. They're very similar because he doesn't like to throw over the middle of the field. Y 'all know this. So he really needs those single high coverages that you get by running the ball well. So the question to me is not whether or not Hurts can change, but whether the run game can be improved. And I've heard a lot of good people in Green Bay really liked Sean Mannion. See? Really rave. See, Chris? There's no doubt about Sean Mannion. I've just seen a couple of OCs now, and we wind up running the same stuff.

1:36:00Andy Greenwald:Here's the thing that's interesting, that I find interesting about our dynamic, is that during the offseason, I am so positive, and he is very like, well, you know, these things, you never, and then when we get into the actual season, I am miserable and incredibly negative the entire time. Oh, wait. Oh, wait, no sports fans are like that. That's, you're so unique. With him, I don't mean me. Oh, okay. Oh, no, I'm a terrible cliche. I'm not special. I'm saying that we swing because you are more optimistic during the season and more pessimistic during the offseason. I just like watching football, so I don't want to spend my entire time being like, this sucks, and it's like we could be way worse.

1:36:40You know what I mean? Like in some ways, sometimes I'm like, I would prefer like an 11 and 6, 10, 7 season rather than like the Eagles have won 9 of 10. You never want the perfect place to be as a fan is when you're slightly exceeding expectations. You never want to be the favorite. You never want to be the worst. That's not fun. You want to be in that exact sweet spot.

1:37:01Andy Greenwald:By the way, congratulations on winning the Super Bowl. Thank you so much. Yeah. I don't even think we discussed that. Congratulations on CR month. It's actually bittersweet for me because I did the, rewatchables with Bill and band before CR month. That's when I learned about CR month. And then now I'm coming at the end of it. Technically you are my last guest of CR month. This is CR month. We're still in it? Yeah, it's still March. Well, I mean, my house, we're like one of those people who leave up the Christmas tree at all times. CR month is all year long. So it's really... What you do is you just take one cigarette and put it on your mantle.

1:37:32Yeah. Bill has talked about it being a year anything like San Gennaro Festival. That's a perfect topic. I was thinking like Shark Week. What are we talking about? San Gennaro?

1:37:41Andy Greenwald:It gets a little crowded. You pay too much for Zeppeli? What are we talking about? There's like a ride that we're all like a little afraid to put our kids on. That's right. They're selling sausages and also tube socks. What was the highlight? Now that we, yeah, let's do a little retrospective. It's incredible how like now we've, it's been 30 days, but at the end of it, this happened on the rewatchables too. There's been a lot of like, how do you feel now that you've reached the end? I feel like I'm the avatar of the CR heads in the Ringer universe, you know? You are. Shout out to the Reddit. I see y 'all.

1:38:07you were pretty vocal about your appreciation of that group of guys or whoever

1:38:12Andy Greenwald:it's the only subreddit I enjoy it is I think one of the few healthy places on the internet full stop yeah usually except in regards to me it's way better than Mina Keimstock which I don't look at I've really enjoyed myself I'm ready to go back to my you know kind of like my side character position you know just setting you up for success you don't think this main character energy is going to carry? No, I just, all it really was was I got to do a bunch of movies on rewatchables that I thought were really, like, special. It's really caused some people to spin out. I saw that clip of Yassi trying to say that maybe she was your best friend and then Sean being like, I'm not sure if you're his best friend, ma 'am.

1:38:52Andy Greenwald:And then on the rewatchables, dropping today, at our, like, the beginning of the fourth hour mark, third hour mark, Bill turned to Chris and said, these two guys are hanging from the cliff. Which one do you save? Classic The Good Son scenario. Yeah, it was rough. What did I pick? No, you stayed silent and you laughed and Sean pointed to me and I said, you should save Sean. He's younger and has more to do. Yeah. On that note, we can wrap it up, Mina. Thank you so much for coming in. Alex will just save me anyway, right? Thank you for joining us about Paradise and hopefully we'll bring you back on when the next time we have a time travel show again.

1:39:31Andy Greenwald:We love having you on. You're already recording it. Apocalypse. Thanks so much. We'll be right back.