‘Slow Horses’ S5 Finale, ‘Down Cemetery Road’ Premiere, and ‘The Lowdown’ E7

24:38And that's probably why Jackson's so mean to Catherine and was the meanest you could be to her boss. and why he has this strange relationship to River because of what River's grandfather may or may not have done to him in your imagination. I think it starts to suggest a deeper experience of this show that I would like for them to lean into.

25:01Andy Greenwald:Yes, I would add one other thing, which is to your point about the things that are strengths can start to feel like overly familiar over time. One of the strengths of the show has always been, and I imagine will continue to be, the unsentimentality about the turnover. That said, I think this is, I think Slot House is a bit stripped to the bone right now. It is lacking internal dynamics that have helped past seasons. So for example, Shirley was a very compelling character to me last season when she was basically paired in a two-hander with Marcus. Marcus has taken off the board last year, which is what happens with this show.

25:42Andy Greenwald:and she didn't have any, she didn't have a dance partner this year and she didn't really make much of an impression because of it. Roddy is an absurdity and a completely comic character who was, I think, probably overly showcased this year. And who is he playing off of other than everyone in terms of being exactly the same? Sure. Similarly, what's her name leaving for this season but potentially coming back? Louisa, yeah. Yeah, like the, I don't necessarily buy that she and River are like one true pairing, but at least there was some frisson of something, of wanting, of neediness, of connection.

26:18Andy Greenwald:And look, the benefit of the evolving and fluid cast means that each season of Slow Horses theoretically has the right shape to fit into the plot that McCarran and now Will Smith and whoever's taking over from him want to use. But I think I'd like a little bit more. Second point I want to ask you, because I actually got some pushback on this from my English colleagues, which was that I did find, what's his name, Nick? Is this like your English colleagues, like the guy who sold you a brawly or the English colleagues? No, my work colleagues. In your community of writers, yeah. Okay. No, what's his name?

26:59Andy Greenwald:The comedian from Ted Lasso who plays the mayor. Nick Muhammad. Nick Muhammad. um i was like i just that was a choice to cast a a small pleasant comedian as the mayor of london and it immediately took me out of any plausibility of those scenes um they were like have you been you haven't been in london long enough to understand that this is how our politicians work here on a on the on a civic level yeah that said i think i need to have more of like i need to go a little more native or have it explained to me again because i just feel like if a city was roiled by a massive, um, uh, mass casualty gun violence attack.

27:36Andy Greenwald:And then there was like a healing moment that the mayor came to, there might be a television camera there or some press or more than two security guards who are very bad at their job. Right. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, the thing about the season is just like you, you, you've laid down a marker with Abbotsfield and then you just try to keep pushing that button, even though the rest of the season fights the credulity of that. For what it's worth, the season five usage of the terror plot being rooted in English colonialism and the intelligence services kind of cutthroat abandonment of people in Libya.

28:16And then I enjoyed the usage of the Whelan character. I thought like kind of playing on his self-belief was a good piece of writing. And I really enjoyed... Sorry, I forgot who plays Whelan again. James Salas.

28:36Andy Greenwald:James Salas, yeah. I thought he was quite good this season. This next season of Slow Horses, as Andy informed me after his incredible piece of Googling, is based on not just one, but two McHeron novels. So it's Joe Country and Slough House. And it features our boy, Kyle Soler, Cyril from Andor. That's so sick. Some role to be determined. It looked good. It looks great. I still have season tickets, man. I'm so happy that this show is seemingly going to last for 10 seasons and 60 episodes of television. And I will be curious to see going forward whether they just reset the clock and say, here's another zany adventure of these people who don't really want to be in Slough House, but can't leave.

29:26Or if they continue to pull at the threads that were shown in the last frame of season five, Rivers' seemingly commitment to leaving, et cetera, et cetera.

29:39Andy Greenwald:One thing that I liked about the trailer, other than the fact that, goddammit, there's a trailer for the next season. I just, we used to make things in this country, and now they do it all over here, was the fact that from what I could gather from the trailer, having not read the books, the plot of season six is about action and plot related to Slough House, not Slough House getting incredibly lucky in solving all the problems that that MI5 can't do for itself. You know what I mean? It centers in the language and the parlance of the day, Slough House, in a way that I think probably will be helpful for the story because you can't at least maybe not until season seven, you can't do another story where it's just like, the fuck-ups figured it out before you did again dummies or they they've they've inserted themselves into an international incident rather than one of their own has been taken or you know killed or whatever do you know the other thing that i love about these trailers is they show the trailer and i'm like oh everyone has a different haircut i know as if it takes longer than two weeks to change your hair but there's something about it that makes surely's new hair i was just like okay surely i have come to equate hair changes with massive delays in production that like they had to just work with what the actor had done in the three years that they last filmed, as opposed to them just walking into wardrobe on day one and then being like, yeah, about shorter.

31:00Andy Greenwald:And then going, right. Yeah. So it's very exciting. Very exciting. Do you hear that? Sounds like breakfast is ready because Quakers coming in hot with morning nutrition 100 % whole grain oats and a good source of fiber to fuel the rhythm of your morning and kickstart your day and that sounds absolutely delicious fuel to start whatever's next quaker official sponsor of fifa world cup 26 honey did you invite the minions over well you know how we talked about getting Wi-Fi from Xfinity? Yeah. I ordered it this morning. It was online in minutes. Then, they showed up. So they just came over to use the Wi-Fi?

31:46Andy Greenwald:For what?

31:49Better not to know.

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33:24Andy Greenwald:Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. Since we're on the topic of Mick Heron, let's talk about Down Cemetery Road. The first two episodes of this show went out today, I think. Today. So we won't get too heavily into spoilers. I think we can just, I think you and I agree. I recommend this show. Now, I was fascinated to see the little sprinklings of Mick Heron specifically, and this is adapted by Marlena Banks, who's worked on Slow Horses as a writer on the Slow Horses staff. Who is also, by the way, a quite well-known comedian and the voice of Mummy Pig on Peppa Pig.

34:10Andy Greenwald:Just for the Daddington South Park. Is she kicking up off that, you think? I want to say yes. But, you know, you never know with voice acting gigs. You never know what contract you sign. Is Peppa Pig one of those things that has like 53 seasons? Peppa Pig is extremely enduring. Peppa just had a new sibling. Pep is still cooking. Oh man, way to go, Pep. So Marwena Banks wrote and I believe show ran the show and Natalie Bailey directed the first two episodes. It's based on the Zoe Boehm series from The Slow Horse's author, McCarran. This is a private detective working in Oxford. It's played by Emma Thompson with a spiky silver haircut.

34:51This pilot episode or the first episode and to some extent the second episode really grabbed me because almost six minutes in, you are deep within a conspiracy involving the Ministry of Defense, involving private detectives, involving the Oxford sort of community of hospitals and police departments. A strange explosion happens at night, interrupting a dinner party being hosted by a woman named Sarah Trafford, who's played by Ruth Wilson. She's like an art restorer at a local museum. And she's married to a finance guy. They're hosting a dinner for his work that is attended by a couple of like kind of hippies that they know from around Oxford.

35:31And it's not going very well. And sort of at the peak of the dinner falling apart with arguments about politics and will cancel culture, there's an explosion that shatters their window and blows the lasagna everywhere. And it's a big moment and they run down to the explosion site.

35:49Andy Greenwald:To be fair, the lasagna was already pretty blown out. It seemed like it was singed. Yeah. But with those British produce, you know, and maybe it's persevering through that. And they run down to this explosion site and there unspools a mystery where Sarah basically gets it in her head that a girl who's been injured in the explosion is a girl that she had a previous attachment to after seeing her on the road the other day. Yeah, a child. A little girl named Dinah. It kind of, the more you talk about this show or the more you try to explain the plot, probably the less sense it makes and the more far-flung it feels.

36:28I just thought that this was expertly done. And also entertainingly written with just enough of the, I guess, Mick Herron, also by way of Iannucci, kind of spiky dialogue that elevated it beyond just a pulpy page-turner. What did you think of the first couple episodes?

36:50Andy Greenwald:I loved the show. I was totally charmed by it. And I was, I loved it for two reasons. One is just the sheer professionalism of it. Like there are moments in the first 15 minutes of the show is a masterclass on how to make producible screenplays in 2025. It starts with our main character at her job, telling us about her, telling us about what she notices and what she doesn't, setting the scene. And then she bikes home and we suddenly we realized we're filming this in Oxford, which is incredibly beautiful. and at least to my knowledge, I mean, it's probably different over here, but like... And also some of the sound stages where they shot Criminal Record.

37:27I mean, there's like some of the interiors.

37:29Andy Greenwald:But when you see Oxford on screen as an American, it's either like a Harry Potter movie or it's a period piece. It's rarely like, oh, this is actually a college town that has these incredible structures in it. And she's biking home and she's basically the living embodiment of the toast catalog, deep cut for English people who like clothes. And, you know, there's a song, pop song playing and she has this interaction with a child that is clearly significant. And then she has a fraught conversation with her husband and it is incredibly formulaic and it is incredibly successful. Yeah. It introducing us to the world, this main character, and then literally blowing it all up.

38:06Andy Greenwald:So it is the best case scenario of like, let's get exceptional high level actors. Let's get a beautiful location and let's really, really give people a chance to get involved before we start spinning the wheels of a larger mystery. So I really liked all that. But beyond that, what I loved is, and this is why I kind of wanted to talk about this second to Slow Horses, is that it almost feels like, now I've heard, I have not read these books and I've read some light commentary about them that even suggests that so far this show is more successful than the books, that a few changes have been made.

38:38Andy Greenwald:I can't speak to that. But it does feel to me almost like a direct response to not necessarily my individual criticism of slow horses, but I don't think so. No, no. I mean the makers of the show, because what this show has is the wit and the verve and the professionalism of slow horses. And McCarran is just like a master level plotter, but it does have a really strong heartbeat of emotion and humanity centered in the performances of Ruth Wilson as Sarah and then Emma Thompson as Zoe, who, because of who she is and how we meet her, is Jackson Lamb-ish. Ish. But has a very, very... Yeah. But she has a very specific, I don't want to say reason because I only spent two hours with her, but I understand why she is the way she is in a more active, emotional way that I'm really, really um really really enjoying and i i just think beyond that like the plot and the levels of plot are pretty ingenious it's a really exciting way to tell a smallish town mystery story but one that has tendrils that go quite literally all the way to the top there's sort of two shows happening within this series there is the uh oxford mystery with with uh with sarah and zoe then there is this sort of the thick of it-esque ministry of defense show uh with darren boyd who is he six foot nine i don't know but so i for what it's worth when you google in the uk it told me that he is 1.93 meters and i'm like you could have just printed this in fucking magyar i have no idea what that means but then i googled what is 1.93 meters and he's six foot three, which suggests that Adil Akbar, who's a great actor who plays Hamza, he might in fact be quite small, but either way, it is a brilliant pairing between the two of them that has a lot of power dynamics just in the visual imagery.

40:36Yes, there's just like bar after bar of great dialogue between the two of those guys. The other thing I was going to mention to you, and I saw the Vulture recapper pointed this out in some way, but I fully agree and it occurred to me the sort of inciting event of the explosion happens i don't know six minutes into the show seven minutes into the show i was so nervous that it was going to be like two weeks earlier

41:03Andy Greenwald:oh it was going to do that yes no it didn't do it at various points over the course of the episode we were going to find out that sarah had um we were going to get like a full flashback of sarah's childhood because there is a really lovely exchange where somebody is like why do you care about this girl so much is is it that she reminds me of reminds you of your child and you're like okay did you want to have yeah or did you lose a child or can you not have children like what and she's just like no it kind of reminds me of who i was and i was like great line says a lot about a character without actually saying anything and we keep it moving and this show just has a really nice rhythm to it that and it's not tripping up by being like well we better show a black and white flashback of her childhood and her doing a similar activity as this girl so that we know why she's obsessed she's obsessed now in the book apparently she's she gets obsessed with this because she's bored she doesn't really have a lot going on in her life she doesn't have this keen eye for detail that i think will come in very helpfully uh throughout this mystery but i just really thought it was good for the things it wasn't doing.

42:15I appreciated the things it didn't do. That's a great point.

42:17Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I will also say, I think you were right to frame this conversation as a non-spoiler. But I do want to shout out the great British actor Adam Godley who plays Zoe's husband, who is kind of an extremely mild-mannered, low-stakes, jazz-loving private eye. You may remember him as getting seltzer in his eye in succession on election night. Yes, or you may remember, you may have seen him in the Lehman trilogy, who Tony nominated. You may have seen him in Breaking Bad. I think more people probably saw him in succession than the Lehman trilogy. But then I said Breaking Bad. Did you see the Lehman trilogy?

42:57Andy Greenwald:No, I wanted to though. Oh, okay. Does that count? Do I get theater? Do I get theater cred for that? I'm just saying that like, he's a celebrated stage actor. I'm like, damn, Andy saw the Lehman trilogy. Yeah. I mean, it's not beyond. Brother, I'm a podcaster. say things with confidence. That's literally the only job requirement. Be a man in his forties who's confident about his opinions. The check's rolling. It's fucking great. He, yeah, he was Breaking Bad. He's Walter White's like business partner initially. And he was also really good in The Great. Anyway, he's always good. And when he shows up, it's just a reminder, kind of like just A, the deep, deep bench of great actors here in the UK.

43:38Andy Greenwald:But also, it's just choosing to fill every corner of the canvas, shout out Sarah Trafford, art conservationist, with color and with specific decision making. Also, I'm just going to say, if there was ever, I don't know if Apple's listening or if McCarran's listening, the adventures of a mild-mannered, jazz-loving, openly Jewish private investigator in Oxford, that's a spinoff that I'd watch. I don't again I might have to fit it in between it's true fucking true like they there's a menorah on his shelf I'm just saying you fucking cracked me up man I might not I might not have time with all my viewings of the Lehman Trilogy and the West End you know but if you were to green light that show I would happily watch it okay that's I mean that's a glowing review of Down Cemetery Road we'll revisit that it's really good it's just yeah It's really good.

44:37It's actually a show. I'm having a marital argument because my wife saves a lot of shows to watch with her mother. And her mother-in-law, hi, Eileen. She sometimes listens. I love you. She burns through British mysteries at an absolutely amazing pace. And so whenever I have a British mystery that I'm like, oh, this is really good. We'd enjoy this to my wife. She's like, great. I'll watch it with mom.

45:06Andy Greenwald:Don't you think, so the argument is ongoing or? I mean, I've lost. I will not be, I have to watch Down Cemetery Road on my own time. Like it is kind of, you know, again, like one of the nice things, I know people have different opinions about it, but like one of the nice things about, from my perspective as an outsider about the UK, is there's just like some institutionalized state-run things that are good, like the NHS or whatever. Like I feel like it seems like Mick Herron television shows are providing a similar service for the great British actors of our time as they age out of Star Trek villain roles or whatever the fuck they get offered in movies.

45:43Andy Greenwald:Because Emma Thompson, you and I are old enough to remember when Emma Thompson flashed across our cinema screens like a comet in the late 80s, early 90s. And people were like, this is the greatest actor alive. That is how she was considered. Yeah. I was re-watching the Kenneth Branagh Henry V the other day. Oh man, I was like, how'd that age? Fantastic. I mean, you know, every fifth. Pretty good. Pretty good. I remember seeing that at the Ritz. And she, so now she has a part where she can just be like, fuck it, let's go. I'm going to horse bath myself in this private investigator's office. Don't wash your face with this towel.

46:17That was really good. Great shit. We recommend this. Okay. Do you want to hit lowdown penultimate episode? The reason why I had said to Andy before we got on was like, well, we could combine this with the finale. is that as penultimate episodes go, this was not exactly like the Wire third season one. You know? Okay, that's fair. Which I am very interested in Sterling Harjo's execution of the mystery side of this, of the action side of this, because those are elements that even though Reservation Dogs have played in different genres, that he had even said to us, or to me, like I when I interviewed him and Ethan a couple weeks ago he was like that was hard this was much more difficult than you know like I can write people hanging out all day the you know learning the mystery learning the the rhythms of a mystery learning like how when to turn when to show when to you know give audience privilege versus what you know what only the characters know and so you go into this penultimate episode, which is called Tulsa Turnaround, which also could have been a pretty cool name for the show.

47:32It's written by Walter Mosley, who wrote Devil in a Blue Dress and the Easy Rollins Mysteries and is one of the great crime writers of our lifetime, me and Andy's. And so I had pretty high expectations because penultimate episodes can be, they can be the knockout punch and the finales can sometimes be the coda. And I felt like this was almost like the finale 1A. It was like that next week will continue to the extent that there is a cliffhanger in this Lowdown episode that is obviously going to be picked up immediately from, I would hope, immediately in the finale. This one was a little shaggy for me.

48:08It felt like it was pushing a lot of players into an area of physical space so that a lot of the plot lines of the season could get resolved. Now, I still liked it. There are still several scenes in this that I thought were delightful or really compelling, including a fascinating or a fantastically executed opening few minutes of the two speeches being given.

48:31Andy Greenwald:Yeah. But what did you make of the penultimate episode? Here's what I'll say. Inside of me, there are two wolves. And by wolves, I mean... Openly Jewish and jazz loving. Yes. Or two different flavors of pedantic TV critic recovering. one of them watches something like down cemetery road and admires the precision the professionalism the uh efficacy of doing things by the book we're gonna you know like i was describing the opening moments of that show the other part of me loves a beautiful mess and if it's that's the jazz loving part, I guess. And if, if I'm, if I like the players and I've enjoying my time at the club, like you could play anything and I'm going to enjoy it for what it is.

49:20Andy Greenwald:I say that not because there was anything bad about this episode. In fact, there were moments of real beauty, I thought, and real profundity about the nature of America and, uh, land and who owns what and relationship between races, relationship between white people and guilt and, uh, culpability and ego. And frankly, one of the most affecting father-daughter scenes of recent memory. Yeah, it was really good. It's a beautiful scene and it's really played incredibly by Ethan Hawke and Ryan Kira Armstrong who plays Francis, where he says he's absent because he wants to be the kind of person worthy of his daughter's admiration.

50:00Andy Greenwald:And she just shakes her head and says, I've always admired you and walks away. But there's a great little exchange that they have where he's supposed to be at this PTA meeting that he shows up late for and his ex is there with her new fiance, I think, even though she had said that they had broken up and they're, they're, they're doing it. And it almost feels like a punctuation mark at the end of a sentence for him where he walks in and he realizes that he is actually going to be replaced to some extent and all for the better. And as he's walking out and Francis confronts him, he says like, I'm not going to be the guy who takes you to like soccer practice or whatever or shows up for every single thing i'm gonna basically be the kind of person that i'm parenting by showing you what good values are and i think throughout this episode you know it's interesting lee espouses very good values and he talks about like i can't see an injustice take place without yeah speaking up he says this to two black men who live in america he gets graham green's character killed you know and and he storms into a church waving a handgun Yeah, yeah.

51:33Andy Greenwald:point to when something hasn't necessarily... Sometimes things can get better when they don't hit the initial target, but you can tell that something wasn't the initial target by certain benchmarks, one of which is a radically different runtime than the other episodes. And this one was about 10 minutes shorter than other episodes have been this season. One of them is an enormous amount of work clearly done in post where scenes are laid on top of each other, or there's ADR. things are combined in ways that were unlikely to have been combined at the script stage. Now, there are filmmakers who that's how they make their movies.

52:08Andy Greenwald:They find it later. And Sterling is a filmmaker. So I think a good example of that for our listeners, if they're wondering what you're talking about, would be when Tracy Letts' Frank character goes to meet with Graham Green at Whispering Pines. And Tracy's awesome in this. I really like this idea of a guy who's just like, at once evil, but also in too deep. And everybody's got a boss in this show. He goes up to Graham Greene's door, knocks on it, says, can I come in? I think in the intervening moments and scenes, Ethan Hawke goes to like three different locations with Killer Mike and does like three different things.

52:48And then we pick up the action as if Tracy lets his, Frank's just sat down with Graham Greene's character. And it's like a time, a time thing and then Ethan Hawke and Keith David arrived almost in the nick of time to that

53:04Andy Greenwald:conversation that would also Keith David, Keith David, Google's information about the church that then overlays the website over what he's looking at. And then he goes to a place and there's this very dreamy, like someone's being tarred and feathered. And so it's complicated and there's a lot of stuff. And, and it's always interesting to me. Maybe we'll get to talk to Sterling about it. Like, is this an example of an overstuffed script that ran too long? And so Do they combine things? Is it something they just found in the edit? Did they not get something that they had to write around? My point is when you're all in on, on a show that has something profound to say and has an artistic way of saying it, um, I, I, I let go of the wheel, man.

53:43Andy Greenwald:Like I, I, I just think this is a really, really compelling show. I think it's a really entertaining show. And I think that what he's doing is very affecting in ways that continue to surprise me. I didn't expect the episode that had the confrontation between Native activists and Kyle McLaughlin's kind of well-meaning, but weirdly, not weirdly, but extremely inappropriate gubernatorial candidate. I didn't expect that episode that had that kind of polemic to be the one that had the father-daughter scene that knocked me on my ass. But that's what this show is. so it made me excited for the finale and it also made me incredibly pretty sad if the finale is the finale finale we don't know I just really hope it's not yeah I would love for this show to get to the point where I get tired of it's not tired I get suspicious of it's the repetitiveness of the moves like we are with slow horses maybe or like you like you know as you've pointed out I would love to be four seasons into the lowdown and be like that Lee keep stepping in it You know, but this has been such a gift.

54:52And like even the moments that probably go by in a blink of eye and I or are just choices that they make details. The bar that Tracy lets meets Gene Triplehorn in is so authentically Tulsa. The the like the way I've only been to Tulsa once, but I know that vibe of bar where it's broad daylight outside and you would not know it inside the bar. because they have sealed all light from this place so that drinkers can feel like it's nighttime anytime. And it's just like those little things that it does are really, really effective to me. We can wrap it up there, man. I'm excited for the finale next week.

55:36Andy Greenwald:How are you feeling about your flight? You have the stuff preloaded on your iPad? What's your strategy? I have a horse tranquilizer preloaded. I will be asleep, brother. Good for you. I'm excited. I can't wait to see you. We're going to have some shows next week. We might move the days around a little bit because we've got the lowdown finale that we want to cover, but we've also got a brand new show from Vince Gilligan coming on Apple next week. Apple, just a show a week. Don't mind us. It's unbelievable. Who knows where they find the money, but they somehow continue to... As I look at my iPhone, see what time it is.

56:11Andy Greenwald:Just like private investigator Zoe Baum, who does a lot of Googling on her MacBook. Oh, did you notice that Art Restorer Sarah Trafford, big AirPod fan. big airpod fan uh but we have pluribus coming uh next friday and we have a great interview with vince gilligan that we're excited to share with folks about the first couple of episodes of pluribus so we got to figure out our days but we'll be with you next week in some capacity andy great to see you can't wait to see you in person

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