‘Stranger Things’ Season 5 Is Finally Here. Was It Worth the Wait? Plus, ‘Landman’ S2E3.

20:01Vecna has opened his four gates, the earthquake, the veins burst through town, the town explodes, etc.

20:07Mallory Rubin:As Robin gets into, in her new job as a DJ, she has been an ice cream scooper. Yeah. And then... Family video. Family video. Yeah, they worked at Scoops Ahoy in season three, family video in season four. Her career trajectory really mirrors mine. Interesting. When will she be working at a comic shop? And when will she become an expert blogger? It wasn't a comic, it was a record store. record store. Expert blogger. Maybe she could invent the internet and just... I could see that. Yeah. I could see that. She would be a great podcaster. No question. The early parts of the first episode are the most interesting thing to me.

20:42Mallory Rubin:I love the first episode. First of all, I don't know if it's... I imagine it's intentional. This show was made over the last couple of years. It went through COVID shutdowns and strikes. So there's been a lot of like kind of stops and starts the actual series itself but you don't have to be a brain genius to see the correlation between a bunch of people living in quarantine and wondering whether or not they have a lab leak situation on their hands is sort of like relevant to our reality but beyond that I think it just would have been fascinating to have a bunch of different characters who are like maybe having different reactions about being trapped in this same town they've always lived in or being trapped in with each other.

21:25Mallory Rubin:What kind of jobs? How does the economy work? Like how does like policing and all this stuff in town work? And instead they've kind of settled on these are the Ghostbusters and they're just always on alert to go to war with a demon in a parallel dimension rather than, man, am I ever going to get out of this town? Or like kind of like some of the more universal themes that I think the show did much better in the first three, but most of the first two seasons. I'm anticipating that that element returns to the fore in the back half of the season. I see. I don't know. Are they ever going to stop having every episode has a massive throwdown?

22:02I think—I don't know. I think one of the things Stranger Things has always done really well is balance those elements. You know, season three is, I think, in some ways the least consequential season in terms of advancing the mythology. That was like the season of the flayed.

22:16Mallory Rubin:Yeah. But it's one of my favorite seasons, not only because I covered it with you even though you don't remember. I do remember. Because of the pool, the mall. Young Billy, man. Yeah, young Billy. But like, because of that blend, you know, you have Robin and Steve and Dustin and Erica trapped in an elevator down to a secret base trying to work their way out. That is very action-oriented, plot-oriented. But the bonding and the conversations that happen in those sequences is like incredible. you build towards something like after Robin and Steve had been tortured by Russian doctors and scientists, that like incredible conversation that they have while still high on the floor of the bathroom, sneaking in and out of Back to the Future.

22:59Like, I think the show is expert, actually, typically at maintaining that balance. So something like, okay, Nancy and Jonathan in season four.

23:08Mallory Rubin:Great fall t-shirt on Jonathan. Jonathan is crushing it on the fashion front. More of a Steve guy, but generally speaking. Obviously, Team Steve always. Joanna noted in our first house of our deep dive that the Jonathan Cardigan this season is really worth, like, toasting and admiring. Nancy and Jonathan in season four were, like, kind of experiencing a little bit of a rupture in their relationship, the idea of where they would go to college, who was going to end up presenting whom. They had sort of worked themselves into the same point that they initially bonded over out in season one on the shooting range, like, we don't want to end up like our parents.

23:42Sure. Now, they're trapped, like you said, by the necessities and the realities of this quarantine in Hawkins. And so that conversation is on hold. To me, it doesn't make sense to end the show, though, without those issues coming back to the fore. I find the, like, dick measuring contest between Steve and Jonathan for Nancy's affections and Robin's reaction to it in particular really amusing and very compelling. That's not the same thing as those characters actually confronting the question of, like, does their life make sense to live together? Sure. I think the best example of what I would anticipate being a slight shift in, like, energy, pace, and focus in the back half of the season, which, to be clear, no one alive has seen, and certainly we have not seen.

24:21So I have no idea. Yes. Steve and Dustin. Finding, to your point about, like, should the characters be having a different response to, like, what has been going on, I think they are having that as just a little subtler. Yeah. So, like, Dustin going into school in his Hellfire t-shirt at the beginning of the season because he insists on honoring Eddie and remembering Eddie and like what Hellfire meant to him. And basically saying to Mike and Will and Lucas, like Will was of course not a part of Hellfire because he was in California, but like, guys, what the fuck? Like, why aren't you doing this too?

24:57That's the whole thing. The party stays together.

24:59Mallory Rubin:He at least is going through, like there's a couple of characters who are going through arcs. Like Dustin is obviously going through something where he's found like a couple of people that he like has located in the world that he's like, this person got me or I got this person, you know? And that is like, I appreciate the fact that a couple of the characters seem to have gone through like arcs. There are some who are like, I don't know whether they were going to just kill Steve in the second season or something. And they were like, he's too - First season? Yeah, he's just too adorable. Yeah, they're like Joe Gary, he's the best.

25:31Mallory Rubin:We got to keep him around for 10 years. So he's just like kind of like a mascot now at this point. Like, he is very, like, lovable, but, like, is never really, like, has not changed much over the course of—I know you can say, like, he, you know, doesn't want to be his dad or whatever. But wouldn't you say that his—however, like, consistent Steve himself is—I think he has experienced positive change as a result of being friends with people that previously, like, the cliques of high school would not have allowed him to engage with, right? But I think something like the relationship between Steve and Dustin is my favorite example in the history of the show.

26:05And then you add Robin to it, Erica, etc. Of just the show's capacity to surprise us with the alchemy of these pairings and to have the characters really authentically experience that surprise too. too. So, like, Dustin's in a place of grief and resentment. That makes sense to me. He's not necessarily, like, able to express that. Sure. That also makes sense to me. Steve and Dustin fighting, but not talking about why they're fighting. I find very sad to watch in a way that feels, like, true to life, but not something I want to see for, like, eight episodes. So, by episode like six or seven, I need those two to have a real heart to heart about what is going on, which is obvious to us as viewers, but they have not been able to like completely unlock with each other.

26:53And I, I believe, I just believe that the show will make space for that.

26:57Mallory Rubin:Well, here's a, I guess this is a good way of putting it. Uh, and I'm not going to get into spoilers for Landman, but when I was watching Landman this weekend, I was like, the reason why Landman always feels so weird to be watching is because so much of the television that I watch is on a runaway train track towards the ending immediately like it's just like watch beast and me and it's you're like when is she gonna find out what the truth is and what is he gonna do if she finds out you know like you know you just are going on this like speeding bullet towards the end and yeah you get distracted by side characters or whatever or new twists but that's like kind of where the show is going Most shows now are programmed to do that.

27:43Mallory Rubin:Landman is like, nah, here's 10 minutes about these guys coughing. You know, it's like, it'll just come up with rent. And I was watching it this weekend and I was like, oh, right, because that's how you make five to seven seasons of a TV show. Landman could go on forever. Right, exactly. Like they have no pretenses. It's half a sitcom, half a like workplace drama and half an action show. You know, so when you're watching Stranger Things, you can see if they were just like, look, we've got solid gold here. And all we have to do is we can have 45 minutes of something that's basically these people having a little mini crisis drama or adventure over the course of an episode, but really having a lot of fun.

28:25Mallory Rubin:And then as long as something spooky happens at the end, they've changed the dynamic of that. They've made this into much more of an action sci-fi show and all the characters need to be in service of that. And I think, sadly, when you've got people who are, it sounds like honestly Maya Hawke and Sadie Sink are, and I love a bunch of the performers on this, but Sadie Sink in this batch of episodes, I would say is largely wasted, where she has to explain to Holly Wheeler and the audience what the fuck is going on. And even in her very nicely rendered explanation, it is still like we say the words mind palace as if that's a thing.

29:06Mallory Rubin:You know, like mind palaces are what we say to explain when show creators and film directors decide it's just happening in this guy's brain and he can go into like all these different worlds and all these different rooms. But mind palaces are kind of hard to visualize. Totally. But do you have more specifically in these episodes, but also I guess generally in a show like Stranger Things, do you have more room for that in your heart? Because that is like core of the concept, right? Yeah, so like, you know, Eleven's powers, Vecna's powers, their psychic powers. Like when Max... Yeah, it's like the never-ending story.

29:42Mallory Rubin:It's like the person reading the book has joined the story. Yeah, another touchstone as a reference in the universe, of course. And like, you know, obviously something like the Kate Bush running up that hill has become so iconic and inextricable from the show. And like, what was that used for? It was on the Pottercom front, like the Patronus to pull Max out of Vecna's mind palace, this other realm that she had infiltrated. And obviously that's very core to the text of season five so far with like Will and the hive mind connection and the Demogorgon cam and seeing through Vecna's eyes and this idea of like, have you penetrated deeper than somebody else knew you would or meant you to?

30:22And like, I do think it's interesting. I'm so curious to see like what they land and how effectively they land some of the mythology stuff. But for a show that really oriented initially in its early years around the upside down and the right side up, you have Hawkins and you have the upside down. We have like, you know, the fabled Mr. Clark explanation of the flea and the acrobat to help us understand the jump. And like we have, we're operating ultimately in the end game here and dimensions outside of that. You know, this like memory scape is a different, obviously related, but like a different thing.

31:00The visual distinctions of the place that Elle cast Vecna into in season four in the 79 Mass Guard Hawkins Lab flashback, et cetera, like we're not ultimately just in this upside down, right side up place. So of course the finale is called the right side up.

31:16Mallory Rubin:Right. So I just think that's interesting. Like the return of eight is also kind of like emblematic, I think, in that sense, because that was, I think, unequivocally. And I think it's not a controversial statement to say that it's one of the great, like, failures of the show so far to date in season two. To do that episode? In season two, just, it didn't work. Like, that stand, I don't think, that standalone episode with Elle and Eight and just the, at that moment in time, attempt to widen the mythology. But in season four, saying, okay, that didn't land, but that doesn't mean we're not going to do it.

31:53We have something we want to explore here with the other kids. Now, Henry is one. Who are all these other kids? And I thought that in season four, the stuff at the lab, the flashbacks, like Elle having to kind of unearth these repressed memories of what happened at the lab with all these other kids. You have two as a little mini villain, et cetera. Can I ask you just a procedural question?

32:13Mallory Rubin:Sure. There's 11. Elle was the last one. Of the kids? Yeah, of the kids in the initial lab thing. I mean, I think that what happens in the massacre in 79. Was there more than like 11 kids there? I'm asking because he's got 12 gates that he's trying. He's got the 12. He's looking for his 12 disciples. And I still didn't know if there were 12 or 13 or whatever it is like in the initial lab. Like, is he trying to replace the ones that he killed? I don't know that we ever have gotten definitive, like without question. I wasn't trying to fat. Brenner had created in his program this many kids. I think, like, after what happened with the massacre, it's obviously, from what we know and understand, kind of reoriented around Eleven specifically as, like, a focus of his training because all those other kids are dead.

33:06What are you most interested in at this point? Do you care about all of the Vecna and upside down centric mythology or are you like, I'm here for the super eight flashbacks to Will and Mike and Joyce and Will and Jonathan and Will and those relationships? Or is it a mix?

33:24Mallory Rubin:I think I'm actually, there's a third thing that I'm interested in, which is the, like, their sort of, you know, flirtation with, like, what did the government have to do with this? Yeah. And not like, I don't mean that. I've been listening to too many podcasts. I just think, I think Linda Hamilton's cool. obviously she's getting used to being in stranger things to some extent but i'm curious about the idea that uh of like what is the this hawkins lab and what is yeah sure like how does the government like take over a town and and it's not like on cnn you know what i mean or like what is there any attention being paid is the president involved i am curious about that stuff but yeah Yeah, like I think my concerns are a little bit more terrestrial.

34:15Yeah, okay.

34:16Mallory Rubin:I feel like Vecna's taken a couple L's over the last couple of seasons. And he seems beatable, you know? On a neutral field, he definitely seems beatable. No question. Did you like that he, you know, he bulked up. It's bulking season for Vecna. He came out, you know, the Duffers have said, yeah, this is like a Vader and Rogue One kind of entrance. Oh, at the end of the Sorcerer. he's got the kind of like spiky Groot tree shoulder pads there's also very uh hard home well I mean he literally did the hard home like Night King raising his army no question and I think a very Thrones-y in few episodes in general because obviously the wall in the upside down you know we learned it as a circle thanks to Dustin's math Steve was like we don't need to see your work I'm like I would love to understand this better I was never much of a math kid honestly Um, you know, the rock face that Max and Holly are in that Henry is afraid to go into, won't go into, obviously, a key moment in his past being alluded to there.

35:18Also, just, like, a wall. Like, neither of these walls are made of ice, but they're very thronesy. And then you had, yeah, the overt Hardhome reference. So that's very fun. I'm like definitely interested in all of it I think the weird to me the military stuff and the government involvement I think when you go back to like the Hawkins lab and Brenner Papa and all that that's super interesting to me

35:38Mallory Rubin:but when they've kind of like just sort of kept it going even though there's not really a logic the Sullivan crew in season 4 and now the Kay Sullivan Sullivan is still in it he's the lieutenant colonel who's now Kay we're like oh he has a boss right that's been the least effective aspect of these past two seasons to me. I think conceptually, it's really interesting the idea that like it should be this battle of good versus evil and like, can we preserve our, not just town, but reality? Yeah. And instead, there are people in the military or government around you who are like, actually, are you the problem?

36:14I think conceptually, that's really interesting. And the idea that then you have this other human obstacle, also very interesting and very like, kind of like, last of us to me that the people end up being, you know, a real consistent threat and foe. I like that idea. I just don't. And I was like, damn, they put up a base in the upside down with a quickness and they do not seem nearly concerned enough about inhaling these particles.

36:37Mallory Rubin:Yeah, you think there's like a work from anywhere option there? What do you think the deal is? Do they have distributed seating? Is there like a cafeteria? Do you take your meals in the right side up? Great question. How does the temperature, you know, we're very, we text pretty often about like, what's the temperature at the office? very temperature sensitive i'd say given that the wall vine that chokes hop you know we learn from k like and obviously fire has been a big part of controlling and sending pain waves through the hive mind the heat the impact of the heat the impact of the cold is that bleeding into the rest of the workspace like that scientist who ellen hop accosted and then hop basically propped up as like a shadow dummy in the closet and that guy just got annihilated by a spray of bullets It's a tough day at work for him.

37:22Mallory Rubin:Yeah, I was kind of going to ask you, there is a degree of 80s action movie, people just getting shredded by M16s in this season. I was like, I wonder if kids are like, because the kids I was with were like, huh, they just killed all those scientists. It's funny. I thought that season four in that respect was super violent and that the horror ratcheted up just because we were seeing teenagers brutally murdered. Their bones snapped and their eyes crushed and their jaws dislocated and everything. Sorry, Eddie's girl. Chrissy, yeah, that was very tough in season four. In this season, like, Vecna going, like, finger-branched knives through every orifice in someone's face.

38:06I'm like, I would have nightmares for a really long time if I were a kid and I saw that. But then I was thinking back, and actually, this memory was helpfully sparked by seeing when Elle, you know, she times the first jump perfectly, right? The seven seconds to the thunderclap.

38:21Mallory Rubin:Oh, yeah. Missed time's the second jump. In her Josh Brolin outfit, yeah. Brolin, yeah. It's a fun mix of the Goonies, certainly some Rambo, and like obviously the Superman. A little bit of Red Dawn, yeah. Yeah, sure. Just like, all right, I missed time I jumped this guard in the watchtower and noticed I'm here. Sorry. Snap of the neck. Really took me back to Eleven, brutally murdering a number of assailants and opponents, but like Brenner's crew, who she just like eye bleeds at the end of the season one finale. I'm like, we've been casually killing people in Stranger Things from this job. It's true.

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41:14Mallory Rubin:When you saw that it was called Sorcerer, did you have a feeling he was the sorcerer? Oh. Did you have a feeling something was coming with Will? Yes. And I think, like, something that Joe and I talked about a lot in the run-up to season four was a real desire to see Will more centered in the story again. Like, he's so crucial in seasons one and two, and then really just, like, kind of lost in the show in seasons three and four. You guys aren't my friends as much as I'd like you to be. But, like, I love that scene, actually, in season three when he says, when he and Mike have that fight in the rain, it's like, he thought it would be like this forever.

41:47And Will's like, yeah, I did actually. And I really love that beautiful conversation between Will's reaction to the conversation with Mike in the surfer, the surfer bros pizza van in season four. And then Jonathan's conversation with him in season four is like lovely.

42:01Mallory Rubin:The California, like surfer stuff. Argyle ruled. I still say Argyle ruled. So Will gave us, we got some lovely Will moments, but in terms of like how crucial he is to the core mechanics of the story, it just had shifted so far away from him in seasons three and four. And so it felt really important to recalibrate that in season five. I think the trailers made it clear that would be happening. His position even in like the poster made it clear that would be happening. So not surprised in that sense. I think that the conversation that Robin had with him about finding, like realizing and embracing that what you need is already inside of you.

42:37And then this is just like, I'm sure you're rolling your eyes. this could not be more my shit like I just like really loved that and I think specifically the idea of Will tapping into the hive mind and kind of accessing his powers that way I will try to keep this part quick for your sake and your audiences but like since season two on the Potter confront everything with Will in season two remember the idea of like the spy

43:03Mallory Rubin:I think there's quite a few Potter curious people listening to this sure the idea of Will as the spy in season two Since season two, I've been talking about this. Like, it just was so Harry Voldemort Horcrux. Right. Not even coded. Like, that's just what they were doing. Like, what happened in season two of Stranger Things was the order of the Phoenix Department of Mysteries. Like, who's spying on who really? And what is this connection between you? Like, allow the villain to do. Everything with Max and the music is so Patronus coded. You don't know what a Patronus is. That's okay. You don't need to.

43:40I'm happy to tell you if you're interested.

43:41Mallory Rubin:Off mic. So this idea of like opening season five, reminding us that Will was first. And that he's had like this very physical, almost medical procedural connection to Vecna. This literal connection to the hive mind, in addition to this deeper, I think, emotional and like kind of like existential connection to Henry Creel and like why did Henry choose Will, which I think I assume we'll be spending a lot more time on in the back half of the season. there's such a like, mark him as his equal, again, like Harry, Voldemort comp. If you're interested in more of this, we'll be talking about this for a while on House of R tomorrow.

44:18And so this idea of like, actually a power from that connection makes complete sense to me. I am curious to see what the balance is in the back half of the season then between L and Will and this fight, but I kind of love...

44:34Mallory Rubin:Because obviously the nosebleed would suggest he has the same powers as L or whatever, but he's kind of like... The powers through the hive mind, right? But yeah, the wipe of the blood from those, just a great, I thought a great touch. Really great. Sure. The fact that like, Elle is created in a lab. You know, Mike has this kind of set up speech to Will about like, but your powers are innate. Like you're a sorcerer, you're not a wizard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Will and Robin has this message to him about what's inside of you. And then like the memories of, and obviously this is like, of course, especially in the Robin conversations, like deeply connected to Will's sexuality and discovering who he is and embracing who he is and, like, figuring out when he is ready to say that to the world, right?

45:14The idea that, like, his friends and family, his mom, being in peril is when he taps into and unlocks that power and that that is actually really different from Eleven's power source. But still, like, so much of Eleven's powers are connected to, like, parsing her mom's memory of what happened there. And getting in a bathtub. Gotta get in that bathtub. you need the sensory deprivation. All the through line across the seasons of the conversations that Mike and Eleven have had, I'm like, am I the hero or the monster, right? Yeah. Like, all of this feels very connected to me in a way that I think is really satisfying in the final season.

45:48So when I saw the word sorcerer, did I know it would be Will? I don't know that I thought about it that actively, but like, was I, did I think for sure Will would have powers? I don't know, but this feels right. He wasn't just going to be like,

46:00Mallory Rubin:like the chump at the back of the line being like, nobody's paying attention to me anymore. This feels right. This feels right. the revelation that Max is trapped inside of Vecna's mind palace, which is, I'm glad that they came up with something because otherwise you've just got Sadie Sink in a coma and it becomes like Rocky II, basically. You're just like, when are we going to get this really great performer and join the crew again?

46:27Mallory Rubin:It was cool. Yeah. I don't know if I get it, you know? Yeah. and I'm curious to know what it is about the caves that Vecna can't go into and get scared off by. Yeah. But I thought her scenes with the performer playing Holly were, you know, sweet, and obviously a lot of, like, very fable-y, you know, Red Riding Hood kind of stuff going on, and that whole kind of setup of, you live in this house, and you can have any breakfast and anything you want, but don't go in the woods, and in fact you are being held up in the upside down with like a tube down your throat this whole time. Very interesting.

47:08Mallory Rubin:But obviously like this is where I think you build up all these rules and guidelines to a world and then you're just like, put the power of music, man. That's what will save you. You know, and it's like, all right, well, sure. Yeah, I mean, I think it's funny because like my Stranger Things theory brain starts to really activate when I see Henry guide Holly to the mailbox and there's a Tiffany tape and a way to play it. And I'm like, but music is a shield against Fechna. Interesting. Like, you know, I think there's a lot still to unravel and parse there. I was thrilled to see Max. Max is one of my favorite Stranger Things characters.

47:49You could never, there was not a scenario where I would have predicted that the Wheeler family was this central in season five. Obviously, Holly is like maybe the main character of these four episodes so far. And then, of course, your beloved Karen Wheeler and my beloved Ted Wheeler.

48:06Mallory Rubin:Ted, absolutely peering irons. If you have that kind of yard. And he's playing, this is before some of the new golf technology. You know what I mean? He's just absolutely striping it. He was like, I pass the bacon. The bacon gets to him. It's gone. Right? He and Karen are having arguments. He's like, how many wine? How many glasses of wine deep are you? Got to go relieve the stress out in the yard. Just get a couple strokes in. Really CR coded. But I think it's great. I think it's great that the wheelers are this central because like every season of Stranger Things, there's some really new central focus.

48:40You know, we've got Max in season two, obviously like Billy as well. Robin comes in in season three. Erica takes on a bigger role. Eddie in season four. Dipshit Derek in season five.

48:49Mallory Rubin:We haven't talked about Dipshit Derek yet. Not a fan. I love him. You're not a fan? No. We did not hear another character. But this is the perfect... Okay. On the one hand... We don't have to get... We didn't need another character next to what I was going to say about the Wheelers, which is like, it's smart to me to use characters who actually have been there the whole time and aren't new characters and say, wait, isn't it actually fucking crazy that in basically half a decade of their family members being directly centrally embroiled in a battle for the sanctity of our dimension... Karen and Tanner just kind of like...

49:21They have no fucking idea. Yeah, they're just like,

49:23Mallory Rubin:weird, huh? Yeah, and Holly... Joyce just lives like now. Right. for a year and a half. Holly in particular, who has witnessed the Demogorgon coming through, pressing the wall in the buyer's home in season one on through all the other horrors that she has seen. You know, the flayed moving through the treetops in season three at the state fair, et cetera. I like bringing them more to the fore. I'm glad there aren't a ton of new characters, but something like a Derek, the Derek thing is really working for me, first of all, because he's just, I think that kid is really funny and we need a little levity.

49:55So much of the levity and straight-trade things in the past has come from, like, Steve and Dustin. And they're both in a mood. They're in a funk. We need some laughs.

50:02Mallory Rubin:Definitely my favorite sequence of the season is the Great Escape stuff. Sure. Like, is Robin explaining the Great Escape. All the dick jokes, very good. And Tom, Dick, and Harry, the tunnels from Great Escape. And just, like, those guys doing the whole, like, we have to dig a tunnel, get these kids out. This kid's doing guided meditation. That's great. That was very amusing. But I just was like, this is, we just like are we need to be shrinking the roster and focusing on the people who matter rather than like calling up guys from the minors in August here. Do you, on the shrinking the roster front, what do you want the death toll to be here?

50:39Like, do you think we need to see

50:41Mallory Rubin:Let me talk to you about this. Tell me. When Hop walked into the vault again and then didn't die again we were like, what is going on? We're doing fucking Wrath of Khan ending 15 times in this show. And I've talked about this a lot on various episodes about various things. This goes back to the first time I was really like able to articulate it to myself was the fake out death of Chewbacca. And was that Force Awakens or Rise of Skywalker? Rise of Skywalker. And the idea that you're going to take a beloved character, basically go right up until the point of death, show their quote unquote death, have everybody have the emotional reaction.

51:16Mallory Rubin:And then it's like, oh, my God, he's still alive, you know, for whatever reason. And I actually was just like, what? mostly I was thinking about this in terms of Karen Wheeler, but you're right. Hopper's death procession, full Bruce Willis and Armageddon seeing his life pass before his eyes only for it to be like, hey, I found something else behind this door. Yeah. Was just like, you guys can't keep doing this. And then if you do kill him, it's... I don't know if they're giving themselves optionality or what the deal is with this, but it is a note that I think they play a little too hard. Like, Karen Wheeler was dead.

51:53That was like a full-on episode of The Pit.

51:56Mallory Rubin:And this is a 1980s hospital living under medical quarantine. Now, sure, they could get some military assistance in their trauma surgery. It's a really deep neck wound. But she has a fucking demogodian claw to the thoracic area of her shit. And she's dead. She was—the ability to just write to carry on a complete conversation. shit on a notepad. And where's Ted? Ted just got one gunshot. Nobody has checked on Ted. So anyway, what do you think of the, like, we're going to keep doing fake out deaths? I'm a little, like, I'm experiencing some conflicting, conflicted feelings about it because on the one hand, I really love these characters and I, like, want them to be okay.

52:39I am not, I am not in general somebody who relates to the idea of, like, stakes in stories by thinking that can only mean death. I think there are a lot of ways that you can feel the stake and I think the, Joe and I talked about this for a while, but the overt, like, the Shire can be saved, but not for me, a conversation that Mike and Elle had on the rooftop just feels like it's definitely setting up, whether it's for Eleven or other characters, the Frodo equivalent of, like, I actually can't go home again. And I think there could be a parting of the ways that is not just, like, literal mortality that would be very emotionally raw for us.

53:11Her and her sister go back to Chicago.

53:13Mallory Rubin:Not interested in that. It's an incredible time in music in Chicago. But a return to like the heavy eyeliner and the bitchin would be good. So I don't need people to die. However, and like we have lost characters. We lost Bob, we lost Eddie, etc. More than that. But like we've lost people. A lot of scientists. Many scientists. Many scientists and many a lab. The Hopper one got me because like... But that's like the third time it's happened with Hopper. The end of season three, like we said goodbye to Hopper. Now, immediately, and obviously time travel is a huge part of this show in general. They've been setting up massive time travel endgame stuff for many, many seasons.

53:51They're playing with it. Characters have said the words time travel out loud in these episodes so far. Like, some of that is we're going back in time through these memories, and maybe that's the format we'll take. Maybe there will be a more literal hour. Characters go back into this locked date of the Upside Down. None of that would surprise me. the end of season three when we thought hopper died and then we go through this like very fascinatingly edited sequence where we're moving in and out of time and we're talking about time and hop's letter l is reading his letter and i'm sobbing i'm weeping i'm so moved and sad theory brain right away is like are they going to go back in time and save hop did hop get out we had this whole sequence showing us like the i was thrilled he was okay but like we went through that with that character and then he was okay so to kind of play with that again i didn't love i just i hope they don't do it again and then came back i'm happy max is here but yeah i think the i don't need characters to die but i i think they need to be careful with the fake out death stuff because then it starts to you do risk that it starts to feel cheap or like a taunt rather than yeah so like i don't know who's gonna actually die you can have character be in peril and get

55:04Mallory Rubin:He gets saved. Yeah. But I think if you do the, like, death montage for a character more than once, it's cheap. So, honestly, Hopper would be one of the more logical people to go in this cast. Yeah. But they have really memorialized this guy. This would be the third time, I think. Yeah. It almost made me think, for the first time ever, honestly, I was like, is he safe? Yeah. I like what you have to say, though, but stakes doesn't have to mean death. Yeah. But there aren't a lot of options when you're talking about a Demi Gorgon chasing you. The last thing I wanted to talk to you about, we've mentioned it a couple of times, is The Lost Sister coming back.

55:43Mallory Rubin:They thought it was Vecna behind the door. It's in fact Callie. I have not gone back to watch The Lost Sister. I remember when that episode aired being kind of intrigued by it. and I liked the creativity to imagine what else could we do at this time period and where could we go and like theoretically these people would from time to time try to run away from Hawkins try to get away from this shit and there would be all sorts of different like fun executions of this that could happen and I think they tried that with sending them all to California but it didn't have the same kind of because they send them as a group because they sent like a bunch of characters to California.

56:26Mallory Rubin:It never really felt like it was as gutsy as like, what if we like did like a backdoor pilot of like other kids out there that are like Elle? Obviously they backed off of that if that was ever an idea, but they have not fully cashed the chip. Like they brought her back and they've brought her back and set her up as a very crucial like element to the last couple of episodes of the series. So you're largely pro I guess I would say I admire the chutzpah and I also admire just like I think embracing what TV as a medium allows you to do which is tweak and refine and not just say all right that didn't work but like why didn't it work let's try to make it work this time I think that because the stuff with the other kids at the lab was so strong in season four trying to make eight work again is like a noble intent I would say, so there's some power and like how could Callie's powers work in the story questions I have that are like interesting, right?

57:31And in season two, her powers are different. She basically can like make people see things that aren't there, right? There's like the butterfly, the spiders crawling on hands, making the cops who are pursuing them think that there's like a collapsing rock face in front of a tunnel so they can get away. Then in season four, we're in the 79 flashbacks in the lab. And they do kind of just very quickly like nod to and lampshade. Oh yeah, but like before eight left, like she's not there for that, right? But all the other kids appear to have the same powers as L and one. So they kind of like said, no, this is like the power set.

58:03They're not maybe different kid to kid. Now, could they change that again? Sure. I'm sort of interested to see where that nets out. It depends on what kind of music you're listening to at any given moment. Exactly. Like, can L and 8 team up, basically? That's intriguing. What I'm more interested in, and what I am kind of assuming the purpose of bringing 8 back is, is to take 11 back to a place of, like, oh, yeah, 1 was one of, like, he also was a kid who Brenner turned into a lab rat. And so is he a horrible—

58:37Mallory Rubin:To be fair, it was somewhat disturbing before he got into the lab, though. He did have a... There was the Creole Massacre. Yeah. He killed his mom. He killed his sister. And he left his father to be tormented in a psychiatric ward. A little bit of a rap sheet before he got to... It wasn't just like, hey, take my baby. No. It was like... And like, as you noted with the moment with Max saying, like, he won't come into this cave and the look on his face, pure terror. Like, there's stuff we're going to learn about Henry's past and his kind of further origin story. But in season four, 11... he was obviously trying to like actively recruit her and he was like, let's do this together.

59:14Then she saw what he did in the massacre and was like, bro, I'm out.

59:18Mallory Rubin:Sent him through to the other dimension. But she was very much like Papa did this to both of us. Sure. And so I'm wondering if Eight coming back into the story sends Eleven into a little bit more of an empathetic headspace again with Vecna. Or are they bringing her back because of her specific skill set of being able to like give people this illusion of a world that they're seeing? And like, is that going to be the is that going to somehow be like how they defeat Vector? And I think it also could connect just more directly to what you were saying is interesting to you, which is like the military government aspect, because there's that line from Dr.

59:56K to Hopper. Like the other the other one, like, why are you? Wait, you brought Eleven here. Like, why do you we don't know at that point who's in the door behind the door. We just know it's not Vecna, which I did think made Eleven's, like, it's definitely Vecna thing, like, kind of inert as a storytelling device. Like, I don't love when we're that far ahead of the characters.

1:00:15Mallory Rubin:Sometimes it feels like they've written themselves into corners and think of that as, like, an exciting, stimulating exercise. Yes. But then it's like you just threw away, like, nine scenes of TV because they're so convinced Vecna's just behind a door. Yeah, exactly. You know, like, it's like, do you, or like, they're like, Henry's behind the door, like, Vecna's not, and I'm like, but you blew Henry into pieces, so like, you know that. But then there's the, like, but then there's the question of like, well, why do they have E there? Is it because they're trying to take something from her powers and create other power people the way that Brenner did with one?

1:00:53Mallory Rubin:Is she, is she, is like all of her powers what's creating the upside down? Like, I have no idea. Like, is she, like, those hedgehogs, those sonic cannons that were destabilizing Eleven. And now we've seen, like, many devices over the seasons. You had, like, the collars that Brenner was using. The pill in one's neck that Eleven takes out. Now we have these cannons. Like, they seemed to be surrounding Eight so that they were, like, stifling her powers. Are they using her to power other things that could combat Eleven? Like, you know, there are all sorts of questions. I'd say like I don't need a ton of eight in the final four episodes is sort of how I feel to your point about other characters I want time for like Max to come back and be with Lucas I want them to go see their movie like in the little drawing I am really invested in Will and the new relationship with Will and Robin and everything with Will and Mike and their friendship I'm very deeply invested in Steve and Dustin having a breakthrough again and reconnecting emotionally I just love the two of them I'm completely fine with like Nancy and Jonathan saying maybe let's like go date other people I would be okay with that outcome you know I'd like the wheelers to be okay I guess as a family that's his ringing endorsement for Ted's medical status I hope Ted makes it well the good thing is is that we only have a couple of weeks to wait I think that this is actually I was skeptical about it I thought they were milking it I know that I don't really know how the finale and movie theaters thing is going to work.

1:02:27Yeah. Will you go see it in a theater? No. You'll watch it at home. Yeah.

1:02:31Mallory Rubin:Isn't it like two and a half hours? It's quite long. Yeah. It is on New Year's Eve. I'm not going to a movie theater to watch the finale of Stranger Things on New Year's Eve. Are you? You hope they screen it? They're not going to screen it. I feel like no chance they're going to screen the finale. That just seems very unlikely to me. Will I see it in a theater? Maybe. Can I run through some hits from this episode of Landman with you just really quickly? I would love it. I love this show. This show is fucking batshit now. Like, not now. The tonal jumps in this, this was a very, like, kind of taut episode of television in some ways because the scenes don't run as mindlessly long as in the first episode where, like, the dinner is just 13 minutes and stuff.

1:03:10Mallory Rubin:So you get these disparate elements. Yeah. Any one of which, I guess, are pretty interesting. I have to say, I love Allie Larder. I do think that it's absurd what her just blowing him like multiple times in this episode I don't agree. I'm not here to legislate or body shame. Of course not. Or sex shame anyone. I wouldn't expect you to. The only note I have on this there's not a single part of me that needs convincing that Angela would try to suck Tommy's dick in the car not once but twice in one day. Yes but when they juxtapose it with a chemical spill it's kind of off-putting. Both in terms of taking the chemical spill seriously and any kind of horniness that you could get from Angela Bowling.

1:03:58See, to me, this is why the show is perfect. To go from an opening of, like, a bunch of wild boar and hunters have dropped dead from a toxic, noxious gas that over the course of the episode, Dale will sort of but not really help us understand. Multiple times, I'm like, why are they telling Charlie he can't come down? The thing's not beating it. They said the gas is heavy, but like there on the ground, couldn't he just run to them and then they have cars and keys? Couldn't they just leave? Like waiting seems so much more perilous. That shit. The only actual thing that didn't make sense to me in the entire episode, the only one, was it the cop who, when Angela was given Tommy a blowjob, was like, I could give you a citation, but I won't.

1:04:44No, it wasn't that. It was that both times Tommy was like, what's up with all the teeth? and I'm sorry, Angela didn't get where she is by not knowing how to give a blowjob. I don't buy that at all.

1:04:56Mallory Rubin:I don't really know if I have a comment on that. I think you probably do. What does she say in this episode? He's driving 80 miles per hour. It's Texas. There's basically no speed limit. Here's the thing that she says in this episode. Your job on this planet is to achieve the impossible. Mine is to properly motivate. That's why God created tits. Yeah, I noted that line as well. That woman knows how to give a blowjob. I thought this episode was so wonderfully entertaining. And it crystallized for me something that I already knew, but now I'm prepared to say out loud. Is Landman the best show on TV?

1:05:32Of course not. But is it the most entertaining?

1:05:35Mallory Rubin:It is definitely for its runtime. Because you just really don't know what you're going to get in any given scene. you know and so the way that this episode ends which I'll spoil this third episode of Landman for anybody who hasn't watched it which is seeming well no a seeming union of both financial resources but also just like parts between Emtex Oil the Norris family and Andy Garcia's cartel funded investment fund or investment group Danny Morrell and I'm like I can't quite tell whether Taylor Sheridan's like, no, this guy is a good guy. The cartel accountant is like a decent dude. Or not. Like there is a moment where I'm like, when he's like, trust has to be earned or friendship has to be earned.

1:06:26Mallory Rubin:I'm like, but like, he owns your family house. Like, what are you talking about? So I thought that both of the really long, like the really long we're in the gentleman's club sequence with Danny Morale and Andy Garcia. A Cattleman's Club. A Cattleman's Club. And the initial scene where Tommy goes to his office because he's basically like, don't fuck over my son, right? I thought both of these scenes were just like breathtakingly magical. Well, Andy Garcia is Andy Garcia. He should definitely win an Emmy for this role. He's been on screen for 80 seconds, Val. Then give him 80 Emmys as far as I'm concerned because each second is just resplendent.

1:07:08When Tommy initially walked in and Andy Garcia walked around the desk and shook his hand and introduced himself I was like wait what is happening? Why do these characters why are they acting like they don't know each other and didn't have this like life altering moment in the finale Tommy was going to be killed

1:07:28Mallory Rubin:by the cartel and Danny saves him intervened which then it turns out which obviously is to blackmail him is the whole point right it's not that they don't remember meeting of course Tommy saw him on the paper I was like oh no I know who this guy is it's from Danny Morrell's perspective, now we become new people to each other. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Calls him Thomas. I loved the way the mindfuck of how he talked, to your point about like, wait, does Taylor Sheridan actually think he's like maybe a stand-up dude? Maybe. I loved the way that he talked to Tommy about Cooper and it consistently was just like, do you think what's really going on here is that you're embarrassed that he identified to market inefficiency.

1:08:11He's Billy Bean and you're fucking not. Also, why can't you just be proud of your son?

1:08:18Mallory Rubin:You're just like this well hits homers. Yeah. All of that is incredible. And then, yeah, the moment at the end where he basically makes the appeal, the pitch to Cammie. He's like, I invest in people, you know, which of course is something that Tommy is not going to support and not going to want. Or is he eventually? I don't know. Because they have this $400 million lawsuit. They've got to drill this offshore gas well. They can't find the money in general. Alan, the fucking Alan, just Friday afternoon happy hour, where's Monty's money? They're actually like this whole, 60 % they can take over the lease.

1:08:53Dale tells us that the oil, yeah, it's fucking everywhere. It's all, it's at the pooling on the ground and the gas is everywhere. You should just, Dale's lying to me. I would probably just increase our wrongful death.

1:09:07Mallory Rubin:That was great. policy is incredible okay the oil company stuff the oil drilling stuff I found the chemical spill scenes like gripping I actually think Demi Moore is doing quite good work this season and would love her to get out of I have my glasses on and I'm reading emails and like out in the world a little bit more what about just out on her back patio wailing on the slabs with the coyotes meeting her howls It's basically like a pluribus episode. And the Norris, specifically the Norris male lineage is interesting to me. I love Allie Larder. Yeah. Angela is my favorite character. Ainsley and Angela are ridiculous creations.

1:09:55Mallory Rubin:Do you care about Ariana's career as a bartender? I don't. I was. This is so Yellowstone, though, to be like now the patch is a thing. and like the bartender of the patch is actually the greatest bartender of all time. This is exactly what I was going to say. That guy's been getting called an asshole for like two... Barney? Is that his name? I was like, oh, he's just like kind of a rip? Yeah. Like a little bit? Yeah. He's just kind of rip? That was a real Yellowstone sequence. I agree. I am not invested in the slightest in Ariana. Yeah. So when she broke up with Cooper, even though I did not really allow myself to believe that that meant the end of that storyline, I was content for it to be the end of that storyline.

1:10:44It does not seem that that is the case. And that's okay.

1:10:48Mallory Rubin:Are you invested in Rebecca's wellness journey and her ability to lift? I am definitely invested in Tommy, who takes more calls in his car than any person in the history of the world. All Tommy does is drive back and forth. across. Actually, while we're here, I'm going to look up the drive. No talking for at least an hour after a botched blowjob. My head's so fucked up right now. And then Rebecca cuts in. I'm still on the phone. All right. How does Tommy not know to hang up that call? I guess he says he explains it right there. My head's so fucked up right now. Midland to Fort Worth is four and a half hours.

1:11:22Mallory Rubin:The way Tommy drives, call it 350. Well, that would explain why he was like, I have a noon meeting every episode tommy is doing an eight eight hour eight hours a day of driving well you know cammy is not wrong when she's like it would be good to have you in fort worth they do they use the plane a lot they use the plane now i know there's a note on the plane so that's worrying the other thing that i think is hilarious about this is while tommy is doing all this driving and taking all these calls cooper cannot get a fucking phone call like cooper always has to wait somewhere weird or show up somewhere in a jacket to get a conversation with his dad even though Cooper's sitting on a billion dollars worth of oil.

1:11:58I quite enjoyed when Ainsley said that Cooper smelled like hot dogs in this episode. I thought that was great. That made me chuckle.

1:12:03Mallory Rubin:I'm so Stringer things pill that I was like, oh, I wonder what the story is with Ainsley and Cooper. Like, what did he do? Like, nothing. Your D &D campaign was interrupted by Lady Applejack when I found the heart to heart about fatherhood and what you pass down to your sons and cycles and how they repeat between Tommy and Cooper in episode two. to be more emotionally impactful than I was quite prepared to confront. I am so interested to see what happens next week because it's the funeral. You know, we know it's the funeral. Finally get some Sam Elliott. I got to tell you, being a guest star or a season arc on Landman seems like a great gig.

1:12:46Mallory Rubin:Because so far, Sam Elliott hasn't gotten out of a wheelchair. He's just looked at the sunset. Yeah, he's just looked at the sunset. Andy Garcia has gotten to wear cool suits. and sit down. Yeah. Like he's sitting at the Cattleman's Club. Smoked a cigar, had a couple drinks, has a hot wife. It just seems like what Andy Garcia does anyway. That's awesome. All right, Mallory. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for breaking down Stranger Things with me. I really appreciate it. Pleasure as always, man. I'll be back later in the week, probably with Andy. We are going to be talking Pluribus.

1:13:14Mallory Rubin:We'll talk some other stuff and then we're getting ready for best of the year. So we're doing our late crashing in some like Alan Harper. I'm trying to just get everything done before I make my list. And door at the top? No spoilers. Okay. Bye, guys.

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