Summer Mailbag: Bad TV Theme Songs, Historical Events As Miniseries, and Book Recs

18:02Matthew asks, the success of the agency remaking Libero, Star City, giving the Russian take on For All Mankind. Let me just stop you there, Matthew. I would not necessarily call those successes. We talked about them. But as we desperately await either one or both to be renewed by Apple or Paramount, respectively, I think maybe this this is actually a separate conversation as to whether or not, you know, those things made things a little too complicated. But the success of the agency we're making, Libiro, Star City giving the Russian take on For All Mankind and the upcoming The Koreans being a foreign spin on The Americans made me wonder whether other TV shows could get a twin, quote unquote.

18:38Personally, I think Friday Night Lights twin with another sport would be incredible. Being Canadian, I'd vote for hockey. Andy, feel free to pitch a twin Twin Peaks. I would never. I like the idea of this twinning and I like the idea that you could take a series and just say what was happening on the other side of this wall or on the other side of this conflict or on the other side of town. Did you have anything that leapt out at you?

19:01Andy Greenwald:Well, I thought it was just important to distinguish because he mentions like Koreans and the Americans. Like there are many international adaptations of shows, some successful, some not. Like there are formats that have traveled the world and that would be an example of that. So I couldn't come up with too many international shows that I would want an American translation of because the TV market is globalized anyway. So like Call My Agent, which was a pretty good French show, did get an English version, like a UK version. But it was kind of redundant because people had watched the French version because people are no longer allergic to subtitles.

19:35Andy Greenwald:The idea of a twin, though, of like telling the other side of the story was pretty interesting. and so I in terms of international versions though I was like I'm sure there have been iterations of this but could we do Cheers but in a pub like why haven't we done that haven't we been trying to do that with our Instagram reels that's what I'm saying listen I'm piecing it together myself the other one though that occurred to me was the shows that are I would say they're not in dialogue with each other one person is talking to the other one and one person isn't is Mike Schur did Parks and Rec because he was obsessed with David Simon's The Wire.

20:12Andy Greenwald:Yes. So I kind of wish that we could just swap them. Just give Mike Schur a city to build, not just in the Parks and Rec Pony way, but like a major coastal city. He'd probably want to do Boston. Right. And then build it, not like Brooklyn Nine-Nine, like he did with one police station, but like actually do something as ambitious with his sensibility. Right, like Dickensian. And then David Simon would probably never do it, but what if we put him into a smaller department? Not in... Like a small town sheriff? Maybe. Or like land management or something. You know what I mean? Like, take him out of his comfort zone.

20:49Land management, you say.

20:51Andy Greenwald:Land management is the formal name. Please, land management with my father. Call me Landman. For some reason, my mind goes to Andor with this. Oh, yeah, cool. There are two stories from Andor. one would be like Andor from Krennic's POV. Oh, darn. I just like Ben Mendelsohn so I wouldn't mind seeing a story about a guy who's just trying to build something ambitious. You know? You know, that's actually what Miyazaki's The Wind Rises is about. And then the other one would be something called like Partisan which is about Saw Gerrera. Now, those aren't necessarily twin shows and I know maybe some of the Saw Gerrera stuff shows up in the animated shows but I just think you know behemoth doesn't work out maybe tony could come back to the uh what is the and or this was a conversation in every major studio over the last three years what is the and or of other ip like what is the way in i don't know if we can do this from from just cold do you mean the adult the adult version in-depth version of you know like you know the writers of of Rohan or whatever, the horse women?

22:00Andy Greenwald:Like what if it was that? They did that. No, but what if they did that, but it was like luck? Do you know what I mean? It was like HBO's Rohirum. David Milch writing about like the horse maintenance of Rohirum. But it's really about like the horse maintenance or horse maintenance. Did you have one for Twin Twin Peaks? Is there like a other side of Twin Peaks? No, because I just think it's funny to get that question because I was I promise you I don't do this but I did yesterday revisit a column that I wrote in 2014 when Twin Peaks The Return was announced. And it was like a breathless all, just honestly, I don't remember ever being this happy about anything.

22:35Andy Greenwald:But it was like a mailbag styled about Twin Peaks, why it's happening, why it matters. Like an FAQ or something like that? I kind of was doing a mailbag and I had two Twin Peaks questions and the news broke and then I just made up the rest of the questions. No one's ever done that before. We actually haven't. These are from people. These are real. But anyway, the thing that I was trying to articulate then and is only truer now post The Return is Twin Peaks is not special agent Dale Cooper eating pie. It is David Lynch and Mark Frost, of course. So you can't do it. There's no other version of it.

23:08From Michael. Hi, guys. Hi. One of my favorite slow burn bits on the pod is when Andy finally engages with a piece of culture way after the world has moved on. Some of my favorite examples. Andy watches The Last Dance and gets into the conversation within it. It's pretty good. Two plus years. It was good. after everyone stopped talking about it. The makeup watch of Chernobyl and most recently when Andy was a brave boy and watched Weapons. Thank you, Michael. My question is, what is something people are talking about now or has recently happened that Andy will dip his toe in long after the cultural moment has ended?

23:39Andy Greenwald:LeBron James joining the Sixers. I have to tell you something. Yeah. I didn't say this last week. Okay. You have about two weeks to get excited about this and pretty soon I'm not going to let you enjoy it when it's happening. Listen, I thought a lot about... You're going to be taking off some group chats. First of all, the only sports group chat I'm on has three members. So that is vicious. Second, we recorded the episode yesterday that you started with LeBron News. Yes. This is a week ago now if you're listening. And I did some soul searching after I got home. I really thought about it. And I think the truth is I was afraid to believe.

24:15Andy Greenwald:Because then when I was like, I was thinking about it more and I was seeing like pictures like the Sixers official announcement. I really think that I thought it was some like AI false flag. Like I don't think I really, really believed it. I wonder whether or not, just to tie it back into Michael's question here, LeBron is weapons. Like LeBron is the last dance. Like LeBron coming, it's just too, it's too mainstream for you. It's not. I am pretty fucking excited now. I'm pretty excited. I think that the, what I was trying to articulate was the psychological journey of the last 10 years of being a Philadelphia basketball fan is so psychotic.

24:57Well, they're the ones that you can quit. You see, I feel like those are the guys that you've, the Sixers are the team that I feel like you've been like, I won't be sampling this this year. You know, like it. It's true. Yeah.

25:09Andy Greenwald:But the fact, but the two track thing, one is like, it's incredibly exciting from a basketball perspective, what our hero Mike Gansey has done in just a few weeks, honestly. Yes. The second thing is, it does matter to me in the way it matters to all the people who are screaming on Broad Street on Instagram that like, people don't choose to do this. Not ordinarily, no. You know, and so I think that I have, despite not living there for, I haven't lived in Philadelphia for 30 years, but like, I think there's some sort of like second little brother, second class kind of mindset. Yeah, I think you get to a little bit like what Philadelphia are you referring to?

25:47Andy Greenwald:Surely it couldn't be the same one. So I am. You are excited. I'm pretty excited. Okay. I'm pretty excited. I feel like you probably, it's just one of those things where like, you're so granular now with your Philly fandom where you're like, oh, like Jalen Carter's contract extension. You see? That news just broke. Yeah. I almost texted it to you while you were talking because that's how excited I am about that. In any case, what is something that's happening in this moment, in the last few moments that you feel like you'll check out in 2028? You know the answer. Election night. What else could I possibly be doing?

26:24Andy Greenwald:it backrooms right it has to be backrooms I think backrooms and obsession I think obsession I think was the Skip Bayless meme we're good I think we're good respectfully why I don't that's I don't like stuff like that that's not for me what do you think it's like I well I read the Wikipedia it's seven minutes long there's a dog actually there's a cat careful but backrooms I'm very interested in I actually think you would have way more to say and way more to think about with obsession because I'm a hashtag ally? I just think it would just be, it gets into some really interesting dynamics about human relationships.

27:00Okay. Keep going. Backrooms is like, do you think you know what backrooms is about?

27:05Andy Greenwald:I don't know what it's about. I understand aesthetically. I believe what it is. I will say, I think you could handle backrooms. As do I. Yes. That's why I feel. Obsession, I think you would be a little queasy at places and you would also be like, this is mad uncomfortable. But to To be clear, I've read everything that happens. Oh, okay. I did the... I usually reserve this for Ari Aster films, both his horror movies and his comedies. I just read... I read the Wikipedia. Yeah, but we'll get Andy on the 2026 indie horror blockbuster train. Is there something else that I missed, though, majorly? There isn't.

27:37There hasn't been. I think we've been pretty consistent.

27:40Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I don't think I've done... Like, there hasn't been like a, oh, I've done Big Picture three times about this. And you're just like, I won't be seeing that. I've been doing the work. I think Resident Evil, which is coming in September, will be an interesting test because I saw Zach Kragger said it is grotesque and incredibly bloody. Yeah, I can't see that in the theater, I don't think. Okay. But I am interested in seeing it. Okay. I'll report back. I'm sure you will. You'll be on the big picture three times to discuss it. I can listen. I just thought this was a great observation from a listener, from Luke.

28:09Okay. We have some of the most terrible theme songs ever in prestige television right now. Preach. Luke, you're so fucking right, brother. Strange Game from Slow Horses. That song sucks. I don't want to hear it anymore. This is the problem with the Slow Horses being on for seven seasons is you still have this really, really mid Mick Jagger song. Yeah. The Joneses from Your Friends and Neighbors, which I also don't like. And number one here, Love is Blindness on the Agency, which is just a hard skip for me. Instant skip. What makes me mad about all of these, well at least strange game and love is blindness is it's Mick Jagger and Jack White yeah you couldn't find one other thing for these guys to do and I think what shows need to get back to first of all so he goes on about you know they've been bad they're on for so long uh they are also all performed by well-regarded musicians doing their absolute worst work every slow horses episodes ends on a horrible note when Mick Jagger says it's a strange game yeah uh how is this happening what can we do about it we need to get back to getting a theme song that has variations from season to season like the wire way down in the hole yeah i believe true detective has riffed on some of its central like themes if i remember correctly but has always changed its music the leftovers did that too the leftovers i don't know what is happening i don't know who the guy is who wears like a quarter zip who's like, Jack White, the kids love him, you know, and like puts them on the agency.

29:45I do.

29:45Andy Greenwald:Who? I mean, it's people have bad taste and sometimes people can be good at making TV and have bad taste in music. And I think that we have to get back to an era when there was someone like for years, she still works and does great work. But like Alex Patsavas was a woman who worked very closely with Josh Schwartz, who does have good taste on the OC and all of his shows and she made being a music supervisor kind of cool. And it's okay if you are deep in the weeds of production or post-production that you aren't keeping up with, you know, rap caviar in your spare time. Like it's okay to have someone around you who you trust, who you share a Venn diagram of some taste with to be like, check this out or maybe this.

30:28Andy Greenwald:It's fine. It's fine. Honestly, with respect to all of these people, I generally would blame the showrunners here because that's The buck stops with them. Because the buck stops with them. The job, there are many core aspects of an impossible job, but one of them is you hold aloft the chalice of taste of this whole thing. Yes to that, no to that. And no one can understand your exact opinions about it. And it's not just that, like if the agency's bad music decisions and needle drops stopped with the opening credits, I would say, okay, then this was clearly like a high level producorial. David Ellison is just like, I've got Jack White on the phone.

31:04Or Clooney was like entertaining him in Lake Como

31:06Andy Greenwald:and was like, he really likes Ahk Tung Baby. And I'd be like, who among us? Yeah. The problem is this season, which we raved about recently, last week, ends with the fucking Johnny Cash cover of Hurt. Yeah. Come on, dogs. I mean, that's an incredible song. Yeah, but it's lame AF to end a season of television. Where a spy is hurt. It's just like, because he's hurt right now? Or like when, I know you love Poppy on the agency, the daughter when she was crying over a breakup and there was like a long scene of her listening to Phoebe I like kids I don't want to make it sound like I'm not like don't talk to me talk to them they don't believe you I don't want to like to be like I'm an ogre of some kind the allegations are out there but you know the scene when Poppy was crying and retreated to her room with her phone so she could just crush seasons of Bluey you were like this is stupid yeah no she was listening to Phoebe Bridgers in that moment I'm like come on what should she be listening I'm just saying be more interesting do better Do better, guys.

32:06Andy Greenwald:One of the things I don't like. But we got away from theme songs entirely, and now we are overcorrected in the other direction. One of the things I don't like about, specifically, Love is Blindness and Strange Game is that they make no choice with those songs. Yes. I was thinking about what the agency could have done to spruce things up a little bit, and I don't think that in the advertising, or even in the way that we've talked about it, we didn't communicate what a slick thriller it was as compared to the Bureau. And, you know, I moaned a bit about like, oh, there doesn't deviate enough from the Bureau's plot, like why not take more chances?

32:42And I understand like you have this Jenga tower where you know where this thing is going over the course of five or six seasons if you get to tell it. And so you can't really start to be like what if Martian had sex with this lady instead? You know, like you start to unravel the great work that they made that they performed in the Bureau. But you could have told the story in a little bit more of a cool Doug Lyman techno thriller way. And just drop a little fucking Moby at the beginning. You know what I mean? Oh, that's what you want?

33:10Andy Greenwald:God moving over the face of the waters? No, just like some 97 major club techno. Like heaven, you know, and in London. I love it. Yeah, you got me. So that was just an idea. I don't really know what to do for slow horses. Also, you're avoiding something that I think might be a little bit uncomfortable for you, which is that the theme song of your friends and neighbors, which is part of an atrocious opening sequence, I have to say, is written and performed by your guy, Hamilton Lighthouser. I didn't, I didn't, you noticed I didn't comment on that. I noticed that. I noticed that. I have a statement to make.

33:47Direct to camera, please. Sam Donsky holds this opinion, so it's not solely my discovery. I don't know if he holds it still. I think that the Walkmen are the best band of the 2010s wow is that the 2010s? not really I think the Walkmen are better than the Strokes

34:05Andy Greenwald:you couldn't even keep a straight face saying it Lisbon and Heaven are as good as it gets for like late period like rock bands from that era okay it's not better than the Strokes the Strokes have two really good records And I am going to do a Strokes bandsplain in the future. So yes, there are the Strokes have more good songs on their bad records than the Walkman did. Nope. Entirely. Nope. 100 percent. Bring me on. Yassi. Come on. You should do it. No, I am not. No, you should do the bandsplain instead of me. I don't care about them that much. And yet my opinion is absolutely accurate. Maybe we should do a great cultural exchange where I make you a Walkman mixtape and then I'll watch two episodes of Blue.

34:53Andy Greenwald:I was there in the 2000s. There are many bands that I'm like, they're fine, or I don't like them as much. They're goaded. I've never liked The Walkman. Jason says, given how Widow's Bay broke out, do you think it confirms it's still possible for a well-made show to gain popularity through old school word of mouth? Or is this an exception to the algorithmic rule? Yes and no. I think that there is a narrative about Widow's Bay that is true, which is it is so undeniably good and surprising. and addictive, that it, without question, built an audience over time and gave people that really rare, these days, feeling of participation in the growth and success of something that they care about that reminded us of the way things used to work in terms of word of mouth success.

35:40Andy Greenwald:That's true. I think the other narrative that is harder to parse is that you can't really have a conversation about a show like Widow's Bay being a success without really diving into the fact that the word success doesn't mean any one thing anymore, particularly in the case of television, because everything that, everything pops up for us if we subscribe the way things used to, but it's not a level playing field in the way that Caroline and the City proved itself to be a good audience hold after Seinfeld or whatever versus Veronica's Closet. Yes. Like, it is not a neutral playing field where, like, something can grow over time in comparison to everything else because it's all being beamed to the same households.

36:19Widow's Bay maybe only exists.

36:21Andy Greenwald:I don't know if this is true, but maybe only exists because the willingness to take a chance, the price point of all the creatives involved, the agreeing to shoot it on location in Massachusetts, all of this. It's possible that only Apple was going to let all these things happen anyway. And then B, the level of what success means for Apple is completely different from what it means for NBC or Netflix or HBO Max because as we've discussed, Apple doesn't even have 1 % of the national television audience. So there's the romantic version of it, which is true. And then there's the slightly unromantic version of it, which is also true.

36:56I wonder whether the best indicator of Widow's Bay's word of mouth would be its Emmy nomination hall. Because I think that what happens sometimes is that a show will get some momentum. But the real word of mouth hysteria takes place when it goes from like, hey, this show's really good or this show's great to have you seen it? it's the best thing I've ever seen. And that kind of happened with adolescence. That kind of happened with baby reindeer. That happened with the first season of stranger things that happened in a, in a different kind of language. I would say that happened with Ted Lasso the first season where like, as people got through the kind of turns of that season, it was like, Oh, this thing that I didn't think I didn't think was going to be that good.

37:39Or I thought I had very low expectations for is actually quite charming. Oh my God. now it's like a 360 degree lifestyle choice for some people to be into Ted Lasso. So Widow's Bay, I'm not necessarily comparing show to show to Ted Lasso. What I'm saying is like, I've noted that like, once it got to like 80 % approval rating, the jump from 80 to 99 seemed like it caught on like wildfire.

38:04Andy Greenwald:I agree with you. I will say though that... You're so good at saying I agree with you when you're like, I don't really know what you're talking about, but I'm going to pivot from there. I do agree. I really love it. No, but I think that what we're talking about in terms of, ah, now it has truly been accepted is still within our bubble because we're talking about like in this town, everybody likes it and the Emmys reflect that. And that's also what happened with adolescence. At the Nithia fundraiser, people couldn't stop talking about. Mixing horror with comedy, just like mixing socialism with boots on the ground, practical municipal problem solving.

38:35Andy Greenwald:But it's the same thing that happened with The Pit. Now, it's not just anecdotal that those shows are massive. Yes. But I am curious what like maybe some of our like real America reporters will email and say like has Widow's Bay taken off in that way. I'm only trying to decouple it from our own nostalgia for that experience because when, to use another example, like when Seinfeld premiered and it had bad ratings and then over two or three seasons suddenly it became a juggernaut that went, you know, nine seasons and anchored NBC's lineup. That is a more tangible evidence-based, like, it was this and now it's that.

39:11Andy Greenwald:And Seinfeld wasn't just popular at Nithia fundraisers. And it's still hard to explain to people, like, back in the 2000s, at 8.58 on a Wednesday night, all you would see in a bar is, like, Abandon Miller High Life bottles because everybody ran home to watch Lost. Yes. You know what I mean? I mean, the political commentator and noted big picture fan Matt Iglesias recently wrote a whole thing about how the single guy, which was another one of NBC's like, hey, it's kind of like Friends, was considered a failure. But it was pulling 15 million viewers a week. Yeah. No show other than the Super Bowl pulls numbers like that now.

39:50Andy Greenwald:I think some shows do that. You could aggregate audience and say that 15 million people have watched this over the course of three, five, eight days. But in terms of broadcast television, I mean, if that was the failure, what were the numbers of the successes? They were in the 20 millions, 30 millions, just guaranteed sitting at home, leaving their beers unattended. Adam writes, what historical event should be a television series or miniseries? Who would you pick to run it and star in it? Personally, I'd love to see Sam Levinson's take on the Teapot Dome scandal with Sidney Sweeney starring as disgraced secretary of the interior Albert Baconfall.

40:26I don't believe Adam. I don't think Adam's being serious, but this is, if we're just living in a blue sky and I can ask for anything, I always wanted to see David Milch tackle the fall of Saigon.

40:40Andy Greenwald:Jesus Christ. Some light watching. Wow. Yeah. That'd be incredible. Yeah. Do you have any other, you have any like particular, who do you want to be the POV characters? Who do you want to throw in there? I'd leave that to Dave. You think he'd figure it out? I mean, CIA involvement in the fall of Saigon and, you know, the various factions that were in town at the time. Okay. Really interesting to see it dramatized. There's so much stuff to do there. I've read several books about the subject. Yes, yeah. Are you volunteering to be a consultant? I would like to get Craig Mazin far away from video games and mushrooms and send him back to Lithuania to do a miniseries on the failed Soviet coup of 1991.

41:23Wow.

41:23Andy Greenwald:Cast Jesse Plemons as Boris Yeltsin. No, you would do British guys, right? Again, wouldn't you Chernobyl it again? Yeah, but you film it in Lithuania. Yeah, but Jesse Plemons is like, would you have him do an English accent? Okay. It was mostly a joke about how he kind of looks like Boris Yeltsin, but we could dig in a little more. Jesse's looking pretty good these days. He looks incredible, but he is willing to transform himself. Yes. Yeah. There will be no Jesse Plemons slander on this show. But the question is, I mean, first of all, I have, I find that period of time fascinating. And that's definitely like, I don't know if you had the same experience, but that happened in the summer of 91.

41:58Andy Greenwald:And I remember I was on like a family vacation and we were like glued to CNN. But I didn't understand what was happening. So it was one of my first memories of like, oh, history is happening here. But I don't really understand. I got to be completely honest. I have no recollection of this. You're probably doing travel baseball. I was either doing that or I was listening to Nevermind a lot, you know Wasn't out yet Wasn't out yet, dude

42:24Demos You're walking around with a copy of Bleach

42:27Andy Greenwald:Being like, these guys are going to be big Like this fall This fall, Blood Sugar Sex Magic Is going to come out, but don't get excited Because a week later When did Nevermind come out? September, October? Freshman year of high school? Yeah Come on. It was fun. Okay, do you want to do a miniseries about that coming out? That'd be pretty sick. It would be pretty sick for us. I'm just curious who would play in my failed Soviet coup, who plays George Bush? Wait, who tried to coup who? They tried to coup Gorbachev or they tried to coup Yeltsin? So this was still the Soviet Union. It hadn't fallen apart yet.

43:01Andy Greenwald:And Gorbachev was loosening restrictions on the Union. And countries were starting to be like, maybe there'll be an independent Kazakhstan. Yeah. And so some hardliners tried to overthrow the government. And Yeltsin, who was president of Russia, was like, absolutely not. We will. We are the government. He was very, very effective. Yes. And it hastened the demise of the Soviet Union. And it all happened over a couple of days with lawmakers being locked in the Duma. I do remember this. And it was very exciting. Bernard Shaw was giving us breathless reports on it. But I think it would be interesting to talk about how that was playing.

43:38Andy Greenwald:You could have CIA involvement being surprised or with a nudging who plays Secretary of State ultimate insider James Baker, who, by the way, still with us. Ninety six years young. James, maybe Jeff Daniels for James Baker. Jeff Daniels. Yeah, but he's always a lot of those. That's what I mean. He's always him. So think about it. Ryan asks, what piece of culture or entertainment were you most convinced was destined to become a cultural hit that didn't happen? not because it was tailored to your taste but because you thought it had everything it needed to break through and then it just didn't did the culture miss it or did you overestimate its broader appeal I have an answer for this that I think I've told on either other mailbags or anecdotally on like Big Pick and stuff back when it came out which I think was 18 or 19 or something like that Sean Fennessy and I went and saw the premiere of the movie Longshot which was Seth Rogen and Charlize Throne in a kind of political rom-com.

44:33Andy Greenwald:Written by our friend Liz Hanna, right? And directed by Jonathan Levin. And like, it was in the Paramount in Austin. Theater, yeah. You would have thought Goonies had just come out. People were hysterically laughing. Charlize Theron and Seth Rogen came out and Charlize was like in tears because she was like, we really did it, America. Like we made a beautiful, fun, romantic comedy that everybody loves. and like, this will make a billion dollars. Boys to Men came out and performed afterwards. The current three-person lineup or the full quartet? It was a mid, like an adjusted lineup. That's the sign.

45:12And Sean and I left and we were like, this is going to be Pretty Woman. This is going to be like as big as it gets. Wow. And I think it made like 40 million bucks. Wow. And is beloved and is very, very, very funny, but did not. your radar was off. My radar was off. I got Austin'd, which sometimes happens at South by Southwest. Or all film festivals. A couple lone stars in you, have a couple tacos, and then you're like, this is fucking great, man.

45:40Andy Greenwald:My worry is that David Milch is listening, being like, I don't think I can trust this guy to be my advisor on my Saigon project. By the way, I just want to amend one thing. September 24th, 1991, saw the release of Nirvana's Nevermind and Red Hot Chili Peppers, Blood Sugar, Sex Magic. Because I really remember, records used to come out on Tuesdays, and like people came in with the tapes the next day and it was like immediately like it was factional. Oh, you guys were like trading tapes? Like dicks pics? No, it's like Canal Street during the Dat Piff era. Yeah. What a day. Anyway. Do you have an answer for this?

46:13I mean,

46:14Andy Greenwald:the jury's still out but I feel that way a little bit about another Seth Rogen project about The Invite which I think is just a fucking incredible movie and I think it's doing well. What do you think the ceiling should have been for that movie? I don't know. I saw people who actually know things about, like I was reading on some film site that it was a gamble to counter program with it as opposed to take advantage of potentially like if this was an August release. I don't understand why it wasn't released in August. It seems like the play was let's give people an a zag option from Supergirl and the Odyssey and Spider-Man and like have something bubbling in the background and we're going to commit to a longer rollout for it but i don't know if that happens anymore i sadly think it will have a very nice life on vod pvod and then streaming uh i don't know i mean like fantasy's talked about this but like august is now the new dump you weary right where there's just like this kind of tumbleweeds blowing across town as they people try to avoid the last days of spider-man and Odyssey going forward.

47:22I don't know what the right month for Invite was. I suppose there is a chance that they could have just been like, this is a straight up awards movie and it's coming out in November. But I think it's a very crowded market. I think maybe like, did The Martian come out in September? There is like spots in September, I think it could have worked, where there was some, it's a summer movie, it's kind of fun, but it's also It'll make you think. I don't know.

47:49Andy Greenwald:But The Martian is more crowd-pleasing, more sci-fi, you know. So that straddles the line between, like, we want to get nominated here, but also we're going to pick up some of the summer vibes. I think it's a tough... There was a strange thing that happened with that, which it did a award-style rollout where it opened in New York and L.A., and then it kind of expanded over the course of a couple of weeks. And I don't think that was beneficial because I think you do all your press. Everybody's getting served your cute, like, you know, take a lie detector test videos but then they look to see where the invite is playing and it's not open.

48:21Andy Greenwald:So I think that there was... We didn't talk about it for that reason. We both saw it when it was playing in LA. I mean, the Big Big Big recorded that podcast was like two weeks old. So yeah. I have one other answer to this which was, let me set the scene for you again since we're kind of 90s focused. This is probably August 1999. Your humble narrator has been working at Spin Magazine for about two months, three months. And I hear like raucous laughter and celebration, which is not common in that office in the 90s, coming from like the, like the kitchen break room area. And I go in and the assistants have, the other assistants, I was an assistant, they've stolen from the features editor desk the VHS tapes of the upcoming fall pilots.

49:05Oh.

49:05Andy Greenwald:And they have put in the tape of an NBC show called Freaks and Geeks and are like, this is the greatest television show we've ever seen. And it spreads through the office like wildfire and everyone was like, oh my God, TV, the much maligned medium has finally come up with something great. You put down your copy of Blood Sugar Sex Magic and you said, hmm, maybe I have something to say about this medium. Picked up my copy of Blood Meridian. I was like, nope. Now, I credit Angela Kelly and William Van Meter for having the foresight to understand what a cult classic would be. But there was this sense that, and I think people still share this, that this should have been, and it was culturally, but that show only lasted, what, nine episodes?

49:48Yeah. That, I'm trying to think of, I don't have any recollection of that. I was really, really, really not watching television at that era.

49:55Andy Greenwald:I know, because that's when The Sopranos was on. Right, exactly. And I apologize, and I have seen almost all of, I would imagine, The Sopranos in random, not chronological order. Do you know what it's about? Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah, I'm just checking. American Manhood. Ben asks, and this is that we've now come to the double down adjacent part of this conversation. Ben asked, in April of 2025, I brought Jordan Harper's Everybody Knows on a family vacation in LA based on your glowing praise for the book. I loved reading the book. In the city it was set, it gave the experience of richness. My family is returning to LA for vacation this winter, so my question is what LA book should I pack with me?

50:38Could be crime, but I'm also interested in any book that captures LA as a place. Now, funnily enough, Ben asks this question right as Jordan Harper has released another book called?

50:48Andy Greenwald:It's called A Violent Masterpiece. I'm about 60 % through it. And would you say vibe-wise is similar? Yeah, it's dark as fuck. I think that he is an incredible storyteller of a very specific story, one that you and I are very, very open to. This book is, like everybody knows, he writes about not just contemporary LA, but like literally right now where there are characters and conspiracies that have very clear analogs to scandals that are in our life from like Armie Hammer to like the guy who produced all those kids shows for Nickelodeon. Dan Schneider. Yes. And linking them through POV characters who are like, everybody knows this is about the dark arts of publicity.

51:31Andy Greenwald:This is about like a defense attorney who advertises on buses and a woman whose job it is to create bespoke borderline illegal experiences for incredibly rich people. What kind of experiences? Well, like literally anything that you would want. So it's like you could set up, you could rent like the Magic Castle and you could go in and everyone inside is wearing a Jordan Carter mask. but smoking a cigarette indoors. And you could be like... Jalen Carter? This is... What did I say? Jordan Carter? Yeah, Jalen Carter. Jordan Harper masks. And it's just like, oh, have you written another book? Apologies.

52:04Andy Greenwald:Okay. Anyway, it's really cool and it's really dark. I really love the idea of reading Jordan Harper books on a family vacation. I usually do movies set in the place that I'm visiting, but I do love to try and enrich and deepen my experience of a city. I try to read London stuff when I'm in London, etc. As far as an L.A. book, this one features 99.9 % less crime than Jordan Harper novels but something Andy and I both adore is Larry McMurtry's Houston books or the Danny Deck books but one of them or several of them are in and around the movie industry and my favorite is Somebody's Darling which is about a character named Jill trying to make a movie yes and characters who in the 70s yeah I think that there's two, I have a bunch of answers I can fire off.

52:56Andy Greenwald:There are the sort of like born and bred Angeleno books where people are like, you don't really understand what it's like here. And here's what it is to live here. And I love books like that. And I would put in that category, um, Freddie Snellis, who we talked about recently, like less than zero is still an essential read Eve Babbitt's. I would recommend, um, slow days, fast company. Um, uh, and then there's the sort of like the classic like I've come here and it's all rotten, which I think, you know, all Chandler, High Window, Lady in the Lake, Big Sleep, Joan Didion, play it as it lays. Don Carpenter, Hollywood trilogy.

53:31Andy Greenwald:That's what I'm getting. Because the other one I would say just is the other classic of like, oh my God, it's actually hell is Nathaniel West's Day of the Locust, which is a pretty quick and good read. But my favorite, I think maybe we share this, our favorite version of it is the, well, gosh darn it, I just love the movies. And McMurtry is like that too. He fucking hates the cynicism of it, but he just couldn't stop loving it and being hopeful and romantic. So any book that touches L.A., All My Friends Are Gonna Be Strangers, Somebody's Darling, or my beloved Don Carpenter, who wrote all of his books are worth reading.

54:01Andy Greenwald:Some of them are in print, but I do believe there is an in-print edition of his three Hollywood books. I think it's called The Hollywood Trilogy. They are not overtly connected, but characters come and go. And this is a guy who dreamed of working in movies. He has one credit. it. It's the rip torn vehicle payback. Yeah. 1972. His dreams got trash compacted a thousand times over. And yet you read these books and there's the one turnaround is the most is the last of the three. And it's just about a screenwriter whose dreams are dying and an executive whose business is being taken away. And God, they love cocaine so much, but they're just still like when the lights go down in that cinema romance.

54:39I love those books kind of have a steely Dan Leiner notes feel. I respect that. There was, I would say, 10 to 20 emails asking us for book recommendations. That's cool. We're going to bring in Kaya on mic for this because Kaya is probably the most voracious reader I maybe know outside of you.

55:01Andy Greenwald:No, she's much more voracious than I am. I'll list some things that I am currently reading or are in the to read pile as I venture out on vacation so i'm almost done london falling by patrick radden keith uh this is uh a book version of a very um impactful and wonderful new yorker article he wrote uh like a year or two ago um it's about a death in london but is really an expose and an investigation into the way london threw open its doors to the Russian oligarch class and the way London essentially depends on dark money to function since it doesn't really make anything anymore. And I think that that is the element that really comes across in the book version, whereas in the magazine article, you're like, it is strange that there are so many empty luxury apartments in London, but like, what happened to this kid?

55:58You know, you're just trying to get to the bottom of the case. this is much more about why people were drawn to london historically and in recent history what conditions happened in their countries often because of english imperialism that created like their their journey to london and how they've used london and london's law enforcement's rather like opaque and permissive relationship to the wealthy um to their advantage and it is fucking awesome. Radden Keefe doesn't miss, obviously. He did say nothing in Empire of Pain. I also, for my trip to the lake, I have Troubles by J.G. Farrell, which is a kind of seems like comic, surreal tale about a guy who comes back from conflict and is staying at a hotel and his fiance looks different than she did before he went away.

56:53And also, it's an Irish novel. It's about things happening outside of the hotel, but it seems really right up my alley. I got it on the New York Review of Books, Memorial Day Sale. This book, Slow Fade by Rudolf Warlitzer. He's a sort of acclaimed screenwriter who's been in and around speaking of our Don Carpenter characters. And he worked a lot with Alex Cox, but this book is kind of a fictionalized book about his relationship with Sam Peckinpah. Oh, good. So I'll expect some fireworks there. And then me and a couple of buddies, but specifically one, are rereading Tree of Smoke by Dennis Johnson.

57:31Andy Greenwald:Is this what you did after you kicked me off the sports chat? And they wonder why there's an epidemic of loneliness among men. Yeah, because we're all reading Tree of Smoke and crying. What do you got? I forgot to fully prepare for this question, so I have very little. For somebody who you read so much, you're constantly texting me from Romans to tell me like, should I get this? I've got this. This is amazing. And then when I ask you. I don't remember things anymore. No, that's not true. I think you're just like booksterming for me. No, God, no, I'm not gatekeeping. I mean, I read, I'm reading Humboldt's Gift by Saul Bellow and a violent masterpiece.

58:06By Jordan Harper.

58:07Andy Greenwald:Jordan Harper in tandem because Humboldt's Gift. I can't do it. I just can't do that way. In this case, I can because reading late period Bellow, it's like three pages takes a lot of time. It's very, very dense. It's hilarious and brilliant. and if I read in bed, which I like to do, it is instant, instant ambient. Yeah. It's so taxing. Whereas Violent Masterpiece, and this is no disrespect to Jordan Harper, it is very engaging. Yeah. And an easier nighttime read. But I also just read, like I was doing a lot of, I don't know if I meant, did I mention that I read this book, Effingers, earlier in the year?

58:41Andy Greenwald:It was really good. And so, but afterwards, I did a bunch of like housekeeping because I finally read Playworld by Adam Ross, which you had recommended. Thank you. because I like to do things that you recommend. And like the most recent Murakami, which I hadn't read, which was really struggled, but I had to finish it. What's Kaya got? Just last night, I finished this book called The Sisters by Jonas Hassan Kamiri. He's a half-Swedish, half-Tunisian writer, and it's set in Stockholm, and it's about 700 pages long, and it follows these three... The door stopped. This is like the first time in a while I've really like...

59:19gotten into a novel that long. And it was actually quite rewarding to finish. So if you're looking for like a nice slow burn summer read, that was great. I also have Mad Woman by Chelsea Beaker, which is a bit more of like a thriller-esque book, but like a nice quick summer read. And then my favorite thing that I've read so far this year is Heart the Lover by Lily King. Bang. I've talked about before on this podcast. My wife Phoebe just read that.

59:49Andy Greenwald:I forgot to mention my favorite book of the year. I did mention it briefly, but it was Lives of the Saints by Nancy Lemon, which is from the 80s. And it was just put out by NYRB. I just copped that on the Memorial Day sale. It is absolutely intoxicating. It's about a woman who's home from college back to her native New Orleans in the summer. And everyone is drinking and sort of fading through life. And it's just, it's one of those writers where you're like, oh, there you are. I've been wondering someone who can create this way of being. And it's completely idiosyncratic. and then I also got her they also published her new book her most recent book it's called Oyster Diaries and it's wild to be like oh now the same woman is writing essentially like many great writers the same book but now in her 50s and 60s and it's also really really captivating I know people are often like could you please write down those books maybe we can just like throw up like a a doc with the book recommendations in a in like a notes page and post it on Instagram so people can grab it I do wonder if there's some way to, this is just me wondering idly, but like there are writers that all three of us love and have done deep dives into if there's a way to be like, oh, here's our recommended LA books.

1:00:59Andy Greenwald:Here's our recommended Elmore Leonard, like the ones you should read to start. Like basically a database of our recommendations kind of thing. Yeah, or even like a starter guide. We do. We still do have the Double Down Book Club. Was it Snitch Butler's Tumblr? Yeah. Was last updated in 2012? I think the name still rings out, though. 13. it does in these streets. Zachary asks, if you executive produce a TV show or movie that goes straight to streaming, how do you make your money back or make your money? Just the first sale or like hope it gets to syndication years down the road. What's syndication, dude?

1:01:32Andy Greenwald:Exactly. Like how does Reese Witherspoon make money off of Lucky? Just curious. I included this because A, I don't really know the answer. But B, I've had conversations with people in and around the industry over the last couple of months. And one thing that has come up a few times is producer bloat. For sure. And getting, you know, one of the issues with like getting all these superstars to do stars to make your shows with you on Apple or wherever is they all get EP credits and their production shingle gets there. So their producing partner gets an EP credit. I'm not saying these people don't work hard on these shows.

1:02:09Andy Greenwald:But there's a misconception that like, oh, this actor is an EP meaning, well, it means many things, but it can mean even more. but directly it means they get the script circulated. They get access to the things that usually only producers get. When I say circulated, I mean they see drafts. They don't just see the one that they're going to learn the lines from. But that also means that they get a second fee every episode for their second credit. Sometimes I watch movies from the 90s. For no reason. And because perhaps I will podcast them about a pod that goes and watches films that we love. It's called Second Timers.

1:02:42Yeah, no, but like I was watching a movie recently that was an action film and it's shot on location in Los Angeles. And you're just like, so were we talking$750 million to make this? And you're like, no, it was$70 million or whatever it is. You know what I mean? And that is a huge action movie. I don't totally understand outside of inflation how things have gotten out of control. Do you think that some of it is these above the line costs of once we get through, everybody gets a piece and everybody gets a taste.

1:03:14Andy Greenwald:like each episode is pretty expensive with all this there are so many ways to answer this question and i'd like to do my best to hit a few of them and if i'm not making sense or i'm being unclear tell me but specifically to your point there's no question that it it is a level of advanced watching to try to understand where the money is spent because and i'm not necessarily that good at it i we loved the show um the rise and fall of reggie dinkins which is the nbc sitcom with Tracy Morgan and Daniel Radcliffe. And one of my, maybe I even said on the podcast was, it's so great to see the 30 Rock team still able to do it and get these just God-tier jokes off, even though the reduced budgets of network shows means that they shoot the entire thing in two days in a disused New Jersey McMansion.

1:03:59Andy Greenwald:And shoot it handheld. Like literally it's in a white box. And you watch 30 Rock, which I've been doing a little bit more of recently and you see that they're not just in 30 Rock I mean they shot in Queens but they're on the streets of New York blah blah blah yeah and there are a lot of like more of the sort of Simpsons as cutaways to other places and someone pointed out to me that yes certainly margins have fallen but also look how many EPs there are and not just EPs like Tracy Morgan is an EP but also you have to service the longtime deal that Tina Fey and Robert Carlock has and like that's sometimes where the money goes and you don't always see it on screen.

1:04:35Andy Greenwald:The other thing is that like, obviously the industry has changed radically. And there was a time when you could take a risk by putting up money, being a financier or producer on something with the understanding that there would be a long tail. Sure. There are many people who've got very rich on like VHS, the VHS boom or the, or whatever, because they knew that. And then, you know, the most famous example of the non-writing producer success story would be Castle Rock. The late Rob Reiner and his pals in the 90s made everything from Rob Reiner's movies to Seinfeld. And they were able to do it because the TV business was built so that A, networks had to buy outside of themselves.

1:05:19Andy Greenwald:They could not, NBC couldn't buy from NBC Studios or Universal Studios. So there were all these independent studios that sprung up to sell to everyone and they did. But also, if you struck oil, that well pumped for a long time. And Castle Rock and its inheritors are still making money off of Seinfeld because every few years the rights come up again. That door closed. Both those doors closed in the last few years. Like the laws changed in the 90s so that studios and networks could self-deal. So the middle producers started to go away. And then two, streamers meant that it was a closed ecosystem.

1:05:52Andy Greenwald:So you weren't going to sell it again. So the ceiling fell for the potential success of a lot of these big shows. So in talking to people about this, you realize that like the non-writing producer role, especially now as even the margins have even shrunk for like shingles having overall deals themselves. Meaning like right now, like Seth MacFarlane's company, Fuzzy Door, had a, I imagine, rich overall deal with Universal. Meaning Universal just pays them. And when they make stuff, it goes to Universal. They don't make stuff, they get paid anyway. Well, sometimes, like in J.J. Abrams with Warner Brothers case, he gets a lucrative, I think, record-breaking deal with Warner Brothers, but is still making things for Paramount and is still making things for other networks.

1:06:36And then his actual Warner Brothers output was quite limited.

1:06:40Andy Greenwald:And then in post-strike, a lot of those deals were downshifted to first-look deals, meaning they're getting paid a little bit of money, but not nearly as much guaranteed. And then they bring their stuff to market to the people who are paying them that little bit first. The other thing that's hard for producers, and I do worry about our dear Reese Witherspoon, how is she going to make it? I mean, she, among all of us, is maybe the most voracious reader. That is true. Producers' fees don't kick in until you're in production. so there's a lot of work and labor put into it before you even get to the finish line so anyway one way that they make money now is that um because the episode orders have shrunk so intensely that the amount of money that producers are getting paid per episode has grown considerably sure so that you're getting paid for six or eight episodes more than people used to get paid for 22 episodes potentially if you're a producer the other way you do it is they because these guys are all they're still going to get paid like i'm not you know you know people the reese witherspoons of the world whether they sell to hedge fund capital or they approach the business differently they're still going to find ways to get paid it's often in what's known as points people talk about like oh how many points do i get on this show points on the back end or whatever i used to think that meant purely like residuals and all the streamers do have internal opaque metrics being like well you were in our top 10 so you're getting a bonus or a payout apparently a lot of those points are held by the producers and non-writing producers and they get them based on renewals.

1:08:11Andy Greenwald:So they will find a way to get more money on top of the old money if the show gets renewed. Right. Which is an interesting way to look at Apple's dedication to keeping things in, you know, we're out doing season four of this now, season five of this. They're committed to doing it. And like a rich company like Apple, if they want to buy something, they will from a studio an outside studio it's not just that they're reimbursing the studio for how much it costs to make the show they're paying them on top of it for the right to buy So when they buy they buy Ted Lasso from Warner Brothers right? Yeah Okay That's interesting But it's also why Netflix doesn't renew things very often for very long Yes Because it cuts down on those ballooning costs You know and I also don't know whether or not maybe you would know but like for instance like there's this TNT show with the late Eric Dane starring in it called The Last Ship, which was on...

1:09:03I remember that. ...for several years and was often like you'd see advertisements. I got Charles Parnell was in that show. Yeah. It was or is the number one show on Netflix. That's so crazy. And this also happened with Suits where I don't... We didn't really talk to Patrick Adams when he came on about this, but whether or not there is some windfall when there is like a streaming pop for your show.

1:09:23Andy Greenwald:Yeah. If it wasn't built into your original deal or whatever, you know what I mean? So I don't know whether the producers of The Last Ship got some huge check because it became the most streamed show on Netflix. So we don't know if they participate in the success. I don't know the answer to that. I imagine if they had any points or whatever on the show itself, when the show is sold to a streamer, they should participate in that unless there's funny math where they're like, well, actually, you still owe us from the whatever you didn't do. And so we're making good on your contract. But the success thing, I think, is a whole other conversation.

1:09:55Andy Greenwald:And I would imagine, because people are always trying to find those little loopholes, that there's deal language now being written, being like, in the event of a surprise resurrection, you know, on the Paramount, Warner Brothers, Disney Maytag washing machine service, like, you will get to participate in that. Two last questions. They're both a little bit longer. One is an Andy question. Jamie writes, I worked in film production for several years before switching gears and going to law school. Congratulations. I also have a degree in film studies where the curriculum tended to focus on auteur theory and obviously a more intellectual critical study of the art form when I graduated from college and went to work in production most of that critical theory thinking and especially auteur theory changed on day one when I saw how the sausage was made by dozens to hundreds of people and that the final product was mostly dependent on availability budget lighting schedules and logistics understanding that yes the directors are people who set the tones yada yada Before Andy started working in film production, I noted that he understandably approached TV criticism from a more critical studies vantage point.

1:10:59As soon as Andy got back from his first TV show gig, the discussions totally changed. And I vividly remember him talking about how many people make so many decisions that go into a final product and being excited that we were unlocking a more lived-in experience and different perspective than had previously been shared on the pod. Andy, did you recognize this change in your approach to considering film and TV? And if so, can you identify how you evaluate projects now versus before your entry into the business.

1:11:26Andy Greenwald:Wow, what a close read. Thank you, Jamie. Well, I would say that when I was a critic, officially, at Granlund, like one of the things that I did try to do that felt certainly not unique, but that I thought was important to do was to try to consider an awareness of the business in addition to the business of art. Not saying that I had unique insight into it, but actually not doing so much of what he says as like, you know, the new critical, the text is everything, but understanding that the work still had to get squeezed through the machinery around it. And that would affect how we saw it, what we got to see of it, whether it got to continue or not.

1:12:06Andy Greenwald:But without question, once I got to go on the other side of it, I never believed that people intentionally tried to make something bad, but I don't think I understood the ways in which even the most well-intentioned things can come out wrong. Sure. And then what can be done about that. And I certainly didn't understand the like the esprit de corps that is necessary at every step along the way and why things go bad, even from well-intentioned things, is really often comes down to probably very relatable mistakes in almost any field, which is really mistakes of communication or lack of communication.

1:12:42Andy Greenwald:So there definitely was an evolution. And it's also why I kind of stopped saying I was a critic, even though I still come on here and say things like Deadpool and Wolverine was an obscenity. So apologies for that. Yeah, in terms of how it's changed, I mean, I don't believe that you need to have done the thing to be a critic. I don't believe that. And I think the criticism is incredibly important and valuable. But I do think that there is a long tradition of things like, oh God, Lillian Ross's book, Picture. I talked about recently. NYRB has that as well. And it was basically came from a series of New Yorker articles she wrote about John Huston trying to make a movie.

1:13:20Yeah.

1:13:20Andy Greenwald:And what's so interesting about that is that like she learned so much about what ended up being a disaster by actually being there. And of course, we don't get that kind of access anymore. It didn't make her less of a critic and it didn't make her more of an apologist. But she kind of under, you could start to, instead of just guessing about some of the emotional intentions of things, You can actually see how pure idea, pure genius, pure emotion, pure vision has to get distorted by it becoming a collective project. Yeah. In ways that can be good and elevating and in ways that can be kind of ruinous and destructive.

1:13:54I try to check my language about this stuff more than anything. You know, there are certain shows where it becomes very easy to fall back into like Tony Gilroy did this or Christopher Storer did that. And it's like you're referring to something about production design and like what Luke Hull did on Andor. Oh, for sure. Or you're referring to something about cinematography or you're referring to an acting choice that might have been essentially ad-libbed or improvised, but you're attributing it to like something that came out of Final Draft, you know. And that's, I think that's difficult. In some ways, I'm speaking in a code when I'm saying that.

1:14:32I'm saying like the artisans and artists who decided to make this show presented me with this. And as shorthand, I maybe sometimes ascribe choices made to one person when it in fact was a collective decision. Or perhaps it was a note from the studio. Or maybe it was bad light that day. So they had to go inside. And that's why it kind of feels a little bit more drab. Like, I understand. And like, ultimately, I think you can just do the best you can. And I think in the long tail of history, like we'll think about things more in terms of their authors rather than their collective productions.

1:15:07Andy Greenwald:But this goes back to the conversation we had a moment ago about theme songs, because it is absolutely a collective process to make anything in this town. And I think the very best creators are very, very forthright about knowing what they don't know and knowing what they get from everyone else's expertise and bringing them into the fold. But the buck does stop somewhere in terms of decision making. And so, like, I always say, not always, but like, among the many first timer mistakes that I made running a show, the biggest one was not understanding my episodic budget when it came to having a big action piece episode.

1:15:43Andy Greenwald:And so I was encouraged to write as big as I could. And then we got there and it's like, oh, you have the same budget as suits, even though you've written something that requires like multiple armed men storming a compound outdoors at night over four days. So what happens then is a process and a collaborative process of reducing, of reducing and reducing. And I think what ended up on the screen, you could watch and be like, oh, that was a really unimaginative set deck that day. Or boy, they really didn't get that shot or they didn't light that very well or whatever. But all of that stemmed from my mistake in putting people in a position where they were trying to make up for something rather than trying to create something.

1:16:19Andy Greenwald:So it is a, but it's a delicate, delicate balancing act. And like when we had Hiro Mariah and Katie Dippold on, you know, it was noticeable and really refreshing that they talked about that relationship where they were talking about like Rosemary's home in the finale. how it was a labor of love for everyone working in props to build that and set deck and art direction and production design. And what goes unsaid when they're saying it is someone, in that case, Kiro and Katie, setting the tone so that they understood what muse to chase to get it done. Yeah. It's a really delicate thing, but like, but that's beginning to not understand it, but appreciate that kind of dance is probably the best thing that I got out of the whole experience and continue to get.

1:17:02Our final question comes from a listener named Trace who wrote this a few weeks ago, so he is writing in the aftermath of us talking about Dark Wizard. Last week, after hearing you guys rave about the Dark Wizard, I put it on as a weekend watch. I was a big 100-foot wave fan, another watch recommendation that really landed for me. I was expecting a cool bit of extreme sports documentary filmmaking with an interesting weirdo at the center, a bit more like the latter's relationship to Garrett. What I wasn't expecting was a show that would resonate with me quite as intensely as Dark Wizard did. I found it one of the more emotionally charged pieces of filmmaking I've ever seen.

1:17:35about the experience of loving a difficult person. I've both loved and lost difficult people throughout my life and been that difficult person for others. And while I've never free soloed anything beyond a flight of stairs, it was that rare moment where a work of filmmaking reflects experiences and unlocked emotions in a way that I think on some level, anyone who loves this stuff enough to listen to your podcast or the big picture regularly is always seeking. Oftentimes the watch engages with television through the lens of personal taste and critical capital, but I don't think we often hear you guys talk about television that hits you in this specific way, and perhaps that's understandable as talking about your personal lives on a popular podcast, it's moderately popular, isn't something that you owe anyone.

1:18:14Still, if you're comfortable answering the question, I'd love to hear about a TV show from any period of time in your life that resonated with you in this way on an emotional level rather than a critical one. Thanks, guys. I do have a recent example of this. Great. This is like, I'm not trying to bring the mood down, but the last episode of Euphoria I you know didn't do for a variety of reasons a memorial service for my mother and so I don't know why but the same grace scene at the end of Euphoria blew me up and I think sometimes that's what jumps out is where you're like it's not necessarily a one to one I lost my mom this show is about somebody who loses their mom and it articulates all this stuff It can be something where it's like, maybe there's something missing in your life.

1:19:06You see it on screen and it kind of like you realize it was missing. Maybe there are words said that you wish you had said. But it was really strange. The Coleman Domingo scene at the end of Euphoria like hit me like a lightning bolt. I love that. Yeah, it's very strange. I mean, obviously, Coleman Domingo's character does some other things in the finale. Which also struck you personally. but as a credit to that series i thought that was just a really beautiful way to end it and i thought it was um it just filled up some something in me that was not you know maybe maybe i hadn't

1:19:43Andy Greenwald:unpacked i don't think i have anything quite like that i think that for me it is always at least always but in the last 13 years it is parenting related so so to bring it full circle like like Bluey does do that for me because there's deep identification with what's going on there, but also just like it's an extra level of emotion because of how and when I watch those episodes and who I watch them with. But more recently, it's been really amazing to watch things like specifically my older daughter's interest in older movies. I find movies generally to be more emotionally impactful. It's always hard to get anyone to watch anything that you really like and you have to be careful about it, I find.

1:20:24Who are you talking to?

1:20:25Andy Greenwald:People who matter a lot to you. You've known for a long time. I'm sure as a parent, sharing your taste with your kids must be a very like electrified fence. But it's a delicate balancing act. You don't want to be over, you don't want to push, but also you kind of want to bring in. And so a couple months ago when my older daughter wanted or agreed to watch the 91, 92 movie, Eat, Drink, Man, Woman, which is a classic. But genuinely, I love that movie. I thought you were going to say, like sneakers or something? I did get them to watch sneakers. They were mixed on. Okay. But like for whatever, she really likes movies with romance in it and there's some romance in it.

1:21:03Andy Greenwald:And that movie is about a father who cooks meals for his children, which is pretty much 80 % of what I think that I do. Don't really bring that into this podcast, but that's generally how I spend most of my time. And so there's that heightened, like when you put the cultural filter over it, you feel things more deeply than you're even aware that you're feeling. And is it because she's watching it? with me? Is it because I wish I could cook elegant dim sum like that man can? Or is it just that, like, it allows you to sort of time travel and be the younger person who loved the movie for reasons that were deeply unexplored at the time, and then connect that person with who you are now with who that other person is becoming?

1:21:42Andy Greenwald:Yeah. But I appreciate the question because that gets to the heart of something that is very, very difficult to articulate or communicate in a podcast because it's very personal. I think you're also obscuring the fact that you also get quite moved when they ask the original lioness why she wanted to be a marine. What did she say? That she was protected by one once. And he's like, then you know exactly what it means to be a marine. Is that what it's going to be like when someone asks my daughter why she wants to drive her kids 20 minutes to school every day? And she's like, because someone did that for me.

1:22:17Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to Sarah for producing. We will be back. So this is airing Monday. We have a special airing on Thursday, which is our tribute to Anthony Bourdain, which we've done several of them over the course of this podcast, but with the release of Matt Johnson's Tony, sorry, Dominic Sessa, I think, August 7th, I believe, we decided we would take a trip through Memory Lane and down Memory Lane and check out some of his television work, try to build a Hall of Fame of episodes, and also talk about some of the books that have been written about him since his passing and his legacy So very excited for people to hear that.

1:22:56And we'll be back to regularly scheduled programming on August 10th. Can we do more mailbags?

1:23:02Andy Greenwald:We don't do them enough. I felt like this was a really good one. Really good. Thank you, listeners. And thank you. I hope you enjoy Bluey and your flight. All 15 minutes of it.