‘Superman’ and What We Want Out of Comic Book Adaptations

23:05Andy Greenwald:Like, you don't need to explain that he's like real strong. Great movie. The... It saves so much time. And like for me, and I imagine many people listening, like, who have a comic book entry story or introduction. Like, I remember in seventh grade, when my friend Mozzie gave me an issue of X Factor cold. And I was like, wait, that guy shoots lasers out of his eyes? You know, actually he doesn't, but I'll explain that in another upcoming pod. But what was exciting about it was the same excitement I got when I got a book about Greek myths when I was in elementary school. And you're like, oh shit, these guys know each other?

23:40Yeah, you're jumping in in the rapids. It's like you're not dipping a toe in and like, okay, and now this is how it starts.

23:45Andy Greenwald:And this is what fandom used to be too as a music fan or as a fan of literature. You look around and everybody's like, don't you know this already? This person's influenced by this. So that piece was really fun. And I found that the way that he did that to be relatively bold, considering the stakes here, to save an entire, not just comic book cinematic universe, but a studio essentially in Warner Brothers. But I thought it was fun. Yeah, I thought it was cool. It lets every character kind of already be... in the sort of late first part, beginning second part of their arc. And I wonder if for an actor, that's very exciting because it's almost like you can rev the engine up a little bit and be further along.

24:34Be who you are. Yeah, like Lois is Lois. There's no like, who's this guy with the glasses, you know? The only person I thought that it was challenging for was also my, I don't know if I, I really liked Cornswit, but I thought it was challenging for Luther.

24:50Andy Greenwald:Let's talk about it, because I think that we're talking about things that were just... Should I say Lex? I don't know what I'm supposed to say. No, they say Luther in the movie, so we have to say it now, too. I think the two things that are unambiguously good about this movie that are the reason why it works, just hands down it works, if it's a yes or no question, are Karenswit and... Karenswit? Well, so, okay, sidebar here. I've never actually listened to him say his name. However, there was a family at my school, which apparently growing up, apparently this David went to my middle school. Uh-huh.

25:24Andy Greenwald:20 years after me or whoever old he is. But so already, you know, we're supporting this kid. Sure. Yeah. But they pronounce their name Karenswit. Okay. My bad. Does he say Karenswit? I haven't really heard him say his name either. Thank you. Anyway. We can just say Dave. Big Dave. Philly Dave. He's awesome. I loved him in this role. I think it's fantastic. I think that's they did it they got a superman and I think Nicholas Holt is just he's always been one of my favorite freaks and I think that he is just he just kills it he's great did you at all trip over it's just Lex is already like I'm losing my mind about this guy oh like the sense that there wasn't a long there wasn't an arc for him to travel it was I just I was just wondering whether anyone else tripped over or had kind of was like, oh, so he's already just out of his mind about Superman.

26:17Andy Greenwald:What's funny is that you're talking about how it's beneficial to actors maybe to start midstream, and I was reading about this, that the great Wendell Pierce, whom we love, of course, don't we, folks, from The Wire and other things. What's that? Just thinking about the plane still. He wasn't on it, but he... Do you think this is going to be the famous lost episode of the pod that's just going to get stripped from the internet? he said in an interview that his version of Perry White and he doesn't have a lot of like there's not a lot of room for him to do much of anything other than to be the archetype of the character which he does well was that he did the part as if Lex had stolen his wife and had like slept with his wife and broken up his marriage so he was now I feel like that might be a conflict of interest journalistically speaking but like let's be honest like what's that dude the Veritas project I think the Daily Planet has some ethically I think there's some issues they don't have a standards and practices department there but so there's some backstory there I think that what I I hear you about the emotional A to B of the part but what I loved about it was that he already had built a pocket universe to do all of this the mad genius of it loved it But also the, it's a fucking comic book, man.

27:43Andy Greenwald:He built a pocket universe. That's what I love most. There is just an assumption of a pretty trippy superhero world that actually is one of the more radical things about the movie. There's just a sort of a shrug element to it. The best illustration of that was the scene where Clark and Lois talk lit by the Justice Gang fighting an interdimensional space imp out the window. You either, these are little stress tests in a way that I kind of admire. It's like, are you buying this or are you not? If you're, because if you're not, you're like, why is anyone living in a city that could be ripped apart by a black hole river at any moment?

28:27Andy Greenwald:Right. If you accept the fact that somehow there are no casualties and everyone has a pretty good attitude about it and weird shit happens all the time, you're on board. And I actually kind of like that a little bit more all in than I like the fact that the Marvel Universe has been wrestling with the tragedy of Sokovia for 15 years.

29:05skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tromphia, proper training is required. Tromphia is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremphaya today.

29:38Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit TremphayaRadio.com. This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. It may have been years ago, but I still remember the feeling of unpacking my kids' lunchboxes after school and to find nothing left. As a parent, that's a total win. Boar's Head, maple honey ham, American cheese, maple honey turkey, all-time greats in the school lunch game. It's real quality protein that tastes great, so you can feel that winning feeling all term long. Whether you're doing wraps, sandwiches, or a quick snack box, Boar's Head makes packing school lunches easier. You'll be proud of what you pack.

30:15They'll be happy to finish it. Fuel their school day with the premium choice, Boar's Head. For lunchtime inspiration, visit boarshead.com slash back to school or head to your local deli counter. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods, who has your back-to-school eats sorted. Wow, we're going back to school already. They've got your fast and easy breakfast covered with frozen waffles and pancakes. Lunchboxes are looking tasty with organic seedless grapes and baby carrots and essentials like cheese sticks. Then for dinner, you can build your own meal. Choose from a variety of entrees like chicken scallopini in two sides, and it's all good too.

30:51Whole Foods has banned more than 300 food ingredients store-wide. Shop back-to-school must-haves at Whole Foods Market in-store or online. gray roots entering the chat uninvited garnier's got you garnier color sensation root retouch covers up to 100 of grays in just 10 minutes no ammonia no mess and the color lasts up to four weeks it's as easy to apply as shampoo plus it's vegan and cruelty free 10 minutes sensational color sensational price with those savings your next girl's night is basically free find your perfect match at walmart.com or at a store near you that brings me to my next topic I want to discuss with you.

31:34Does this movie position DC to out Marvel Marvel? Because for the longest time, DC under Snyder and, and, and all the stuff that was going on, but if we know from the tens on, I think we're trying to position it visually, tonally as like an alternative, as a different brand, desaturated, dark, traumatized, superheroes who were breaking each other's necks and throwing each other off the planet and stuff. And it's just very gritty, but also just humorless, joyless, and kind of obviously lacked a kind of... It obviously didn't resonate with people as much, Snyder fans aside, on a mass level, the way the Marvel stuff was.

32:25But I got what they were trying to do in so much as you can't do bantery, fun, we're standing here on a set in Atlanta just kind of making jokes and then we'll have a MacGuffin to figure out. You can't do that while Marvel's doing the same thing. This felt like he basically was like, I have the I am actually, to some extent, the later period Marvel secret sauce. And I am bringing that to this movie. It's colorful. It's funny. The characters all feel like they know each other. The actors have great chemistry. And yeah, it has the same problem that a lot of Marvels do where it's like the last 40 minutes of it are just like fly and seal up the core of the earth.

33:11Punch, punch. But then punch the building and then this. Do you think that this like sets DC up for an exciting future?

33:21Andy Greenwald:Well, specifically in terms of the aesthetic thing, like James Gunn has talked about how influenced he was by... the Grant Morrison and Frank Whiteley all-star Superman comic, but particularly the colorist Jamie Grant and the sort of bright pastels and the wash of it, that alone changed my mood. Like the colors and the lightness visually, everything in Marvel is dark purples and greens now. And I think that's because of the CGI budget. I mean, you see these leaked photos from the set of Doomsday and it's four people walking around with essentially the contemporary equivalent of ping pong balls because they draw in everything.

33:59Andy Greenwald:Yes. I'm not saying that Superman was some like cinema verite experience, but you don't feel the sameness, which I think is the kind of intentional choice that you can make when you are the filmmaker and the Kevin Feige architect of everything. So that was nice to see. I think... I think what remains to be seen is how much of the next few years of this stuff is individually distinguished, articulated visions, the way that he has talked about wanting to make some things. Like what's the one, the Clayface is the one that's like weirdly being fast-tracked. And I can't imagine that that's going to have a similar color palette.

34:40Andy Greenwald:It's also interesting to consider how Lanterns, which is coming to HBO next year and is filming now, is set in this universe with the same Green Lantern Corps. And I believe Guy Gardner is going to appear even maybe just passingly in it. But it's a - Nathan Fillion. Nathan Fillion's character, Guy Gardner. But it is going to be showing very, you know, the log line is that it's basically like True Detective with space cops. So how that's going to talk to each other, I don't know. I think one of the things about the movie that may repel some people, honestly, and it was probably the thing that I was having the most trouble with in the beginning, was it's just sort of untroubled, shrugging acceptance that movies the way, at least on the big screen scale, the way you and I like to think of them, just don't really exist anymore.

35:29Andy Greenwald:Like the first 30 minutes of this movie was a much better expression of it, but was not too dissimilar in its storytelling style from the last Mission Impossible movie, which just felt like... It starts five times. It starts five times with almost unrelated haikus of scene work, you know, just like laid on top of each other as if they are streaming videos that you're scrolling through. And that all told, like this movie, it's the first thing I said like it created a world and a vibe and a spirit that I really enjoyed and sidebar on that like the movie is about kindness and like great please more of that I think that that is not corny I think that is fantastic but it is not a standalone vision of something and maybe there's power in that like admitting that I think that a lot of the Marvel movies have kind of fumbled a little bit in the last few years because maybe we have still been viewing them as this one is good, this one is not good.

36:27Andy Greenwald:This one is exceptionally good. This one is, well, they've all settled into kind of a C plus range. Maybe a more successful expression of that would be, look, we're just admitting that these are $300 million TV shows now and they are all kind of connected. Well, I think that was actually, if I had, I would say that the Marvel fatigue really set in when they were doing $300 million versions of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. where it was like, Right. We're treading water to get to some next big thing. Right. But we don't know how to tell a story. Yeah. That doesn't have the, at least like the suggestion or the lore that Mephisto is going to show up or Reed Richards is going to show up or something in this thing is going to be huge for the future of Marvel.

37:13And they never really did that. You know, like actually post Endgame, they really kind of lost the ability to pay the viewers back for their really like long term service to the company.

37:27Andy Greenwald:But also when we look back on it, is it old fashioned to look at it like, oh, Black Panther and Endgame were, and you know, Winter Soldier or whatever. Those are really good. Yeah. Because I will also say that like in my rewatch of some Marvel movies with my kids, like my memory, I've talked about this in the pod before, but it's relevant here that like in my mind, I was like, Ant-Man was really great. It was really fun. You know, like it really hit all of the pleasure centers and told a story, but also, and I watch it and it's pretty rough. It's a good hang. It's a good vibe. It creates a good character and they're really good scenes.

38:06Andy Greenwald:But how much of that movie is Corey Stoll being like, you'll never get the formula. Like it's weirdly kind of rough. I don't know if they're meant to be rewatched in the way we rewatched Die Hard. I think they're meant to be rewatched as a chapter in a long saga. Right. And as part of like, well, if Doomsday is coming, I'm going to do a big MCU rewatch. You know, like. So what did this movie do differently that I think. Because I think the end of the movie, you're just like the movie's over. Like, like this film is over. Lex is in prison they did that on purpose which I appreciated and the extra scenes are just nice, they're fun I think it's an interesting way to respect the viewer in both directions because one of the fun things about the movie is oh shit there's a pocket universe oh damn it's a prison wait Metamorpho's just sad and sitting in a corner here okay like how'd he get there?

39:03Andy Greenwald:What's the story? maybe we'll never know but then also respecting audiences at the end leaving them feeling good knowing that like the nature of these things, the rules of the game is that like when, is that Lex isn't going to die because they would just be resurrected. So we put him in prison. Okay, we'll see how long that lasts. Right. Like there's a certain kind of... Like prison where, you know. What's that? Where. No, they said where and it's the prison that that the character, what's her name, from Suicide Squad runs. Oh, Viola Davis does? Yes. Yeah, so there's a lot of like little winky-winkies like that.

39:37Yeah, and Peacemakers in it.

39:38Andy Greenwald:Yes. Peacemakers. You want to drill down on that? By the way, the other thing about James Gunn that I feel like... I've never had any interaction with that guy. I don't know him at all. But kind of like what Chris Storr seems... Actually, I have. He's only responding to my tweets. No, I just feel like on a personal and professional level, I'm never going to get over the fact where you're like, Tracy Letts is my friend. that was so wild so you could be like well Jim and I text but we only text about golf I would be I would believe it no I have no interactions it reminds me a little bit of Chris Storer's vibe on the bear where he just seems to be so beloved by the people that he works with that they'll just show up for him and I kind of like that feeling he works he cultivates the same people he has a large family has a theater company yeah yeah and they show up for him and they seem excited to be a part of the world and he pays it forward also by not just recycling the expected people.

40:40Andy Greenwald:He also pays it forward by casting his brother constantly. So his brother now is like Maxwell Lord in this new universe. I do think, though, if one of the reasons why, I know I saw a lot of stuff where it's just like, is this movie successful enough? And I bet it's going to be just fine. And I think part of the reason is that Gunn's really good at, he has talked about this himself, making stars rather than casting stars.

41:08obviously he made one with the casting of Superman but Brosnahan's great Eddie Kethege is great my guy from Briarpash all these people are kind of like oh I've seen this person on TV or I saw David Korn I'm in your head? Kyd what did we decide? Korn Sweat Korn Sweat?

41:28Andy Greenwald:Korn Sweat what was your version of it? Korn Sweat? shout out to Jessica Corenzwit who I don't know what happened to her nice person who I went to school with I don't mean something bad happened to her she didn't fly on the plane she's sitting right next to Bam Bondi she's passing notes I'm just saying that's how she said her name the note we don't actually have the list and then the the fucking uh Veep music plays it's great it's like Roman Roman Roy seeing the fucking satellite explode or whatever it was it is yes all of that we're talking about a star making apparatus I just I think that he can keep costs down in that department you don't have like 60 million dollars to get no he's clearly also a Barry fan because not only was Anthony Kerrigan Kerrigan Metamorpho but Kerrigan yes oh is this what we're doing now no the guy the guy from the guy who's investigating him was also in the government.

42:35Which guy? So there's Frank Grillo. Yeah, Frank Grillo.

42:38Andy Greenwald:And then next to him is the guy from Barry. Yeah, the FBI agent. Yeah, he was awesome. Yeah.

42:46Andy Greenwald:He's so good at, Gunn is so good at putting together a team of jokers and losers. That's just his vibe. And it was interesting because his heart is so much in the B stuff. like the Justice Gang stuff, the single perfect joke of Skylar Exondo, who's awesome, but just being an unambiguous ladies' man that everyone loves. Yeah. That's just a good bit and that kid is great and that was really sweet and funny that it was interesting to see Gunn trying to lay the heavier A story on top of it. That said, I think the best, in a way, I think that was the secret sauce of the movie because in other, in everything other than the original Richard Donner, Christopher Reeve movies, Superman is a man apart.

43:37Andy Greenwald:He is a god among mortals, right? And he's a little bit he's extremely stoic because of that, which is just not that compelling to watch all the time or at least in my experience, brief experience with the comics, just not that what's interesting is about Superman and most of the comics that I've read outside of the Grant Morrison version of it is that he and Batman have a funny rapport because Batman's just like it's kind of like us. You know what I mean? Someone floating above everything. Another one just down in the trenches with the people popping zins, punching dudes. But with all of the nonsense around it, the Boy Scout who says, golly, who actually is more powerful than all of them, works.

44:17Andy Greenwald:Yes. And the humanity of him comes across. And I didn't mind things like literally giving the character a mission statement that you feel like James Gunn may have delivered to David Zaslav or whoever was in charge of DC at the time when he was hired. Like upon the pit. When he's just like, I am more human than you and here is why. Yeah. More human than human. It worked. It's good. You a Brosnahan guy? Where are you at with that, Lois? She was a punk rocker. Thought they had really good chemistry.

44:45Don't. I thought Jimmy really got that scoop. And Lois was like, I'll dictate the story. You know, some newsroom politics going on. I think that was Haberman.

44:54Andy Greenwald:Haberman vibes. First of all, why didn't we start with this? this movie really, really still believes in the power of journalism. Not only that. And the press. If the core of the Earth is opening up to reveal a black hole and I'm being attacked by multiple supervillains, I don't know if my notifications are on for the Daily Planet. No, nor am I glued... Or like, oh, look at this story about Lex. To Michael Ian Black's talk show at that exact moment. You know? and I don't know if that would move my needle now again it's a suspension of disbelief half of Metropolis has been literally torn asunder and then 20 minutes pass where there's room for some banter and then the crack is making its way across the river and I think Lois says people live there yeah oh do they not live they live everywhere is it like LA where everyone's just like maybe we'll go downtown to a restaurant but otherwise we pretend it doesn't exist yeah I think people are everywhere but Superman's still saving the squirrels We're pretty familiar with like evacuations and stuff like that.

45:58So maybe we're used to it. So we've talked a lot about what we've liked. We said, I liked this movie like in a kind of normal way in the beginning. Then we've talked for 30 minutes about all the cool things in it. Okay. So what didn't you like?

46:12Andy Greenwald:Well, I did talk about that in the sense that like it felt sort of narratively incoherent at the beginning. What didn't you like though? I didn't like, okay, I didn't, I was surprised. Although when you see how super stuffed the movie is, I guess it kind of makes sense. that there is basically only one Clark Kent scene. And then really only relatively little room for Clark Lois stuff. I was fine with that. I think it's honestly like not my favorite convention is like nobody. I know the glasses thing, but like. That was cute. Yeah. Good for him for explaining it. And I know it's in the canon, but it is one of the things where I'm just like, that's Superman.

46:46Andy Greenwald:Yeah. So why does he need to have an alter ego? Like I would. Why does he need to be a journalist? That's one less job for journalists. That's a really good point. And also he's making up his shit. And he's interviewing himself. He's basically like Jason, what was the guy's name? Jason Blair? Stephen Glass? These guys, he's a fabulist. Yeah. I don't care for it. Was the Daily Planet's web publishing system similar to what you used at the Ringer or what you used to have back in Granlid? It looked like they had a proprietary CMS, like their own thing. I've never seen the to copy, but also to web and publish thing, but I've never worked at a print.

47:23it's been a long time since I worked at a print organization.

47:26Andy Greenwald:Have you ever hit publish to web from a spaceship? No. Have I ever published anything off ground like from a plane? I don't think so. Is that where you will choose to release the client list? You're flying over international waters to avoid prosecution? Okay. I think that what you're setting me up to do is talk about the dog. and I would like to hear your thoughts. Let me ask you this. I didn't like it. Okay. Yeah. I'm not, I just, that was just way too much screen time for a dog. Now you're not a dog guy. I was, I was, I was trying to think of like, would I have a problem with it if it was a cat?

48:08Oh. And I would. I would. That is the kind of accountability. I think that it was just like, it would have been, I know that, I don't even know how to articulate this without coming off anti-dog or something like that. I'm going to sit back.

48:23Andy Greenwald:This is... Kaya, zoom in. I like dogs. I think dogs are cool. Sounds like... Said exactly the way someone who doesn't like dogs. Do you really want to get into it? We can talk a little bit about where we are at as a Los Angeles city. Oh, in terms of our... Of our dog owners and maybe how too many people got dogs during COVID and now are just like, the world is my dog's toilet. And I don't really care about sidewalk space. We can get into that. It doesn't seem like you want to. Oh, I'm not afraid of a tough conversation. I'm not Kash Patel over here. So when you're walking around LA, you're just like, this is normal.

48:58Andy Greenwald:First of all, walking around LA, get the fuck out of here. When you're outside your house, you're just like, this is a normal amount of dogs. Well, it's a question of which part of the town I'm walking in. Am I more concerned about the roving packs of dogs or the tent cities? you know so like walking around LA is it's a kind of a fraught sure thing I I do I think that there is as a uh uh what's the opposite of child free as a child full person I do think that sometimes there's a little over uh investment in the dogs sure you know as like children but what's one of my favorite thing about this podcast so far is that we're just like Bill Clinton was on the Epstein plane but when it comes time to saying something slightly sideways about the way people are with dogs you know what it was like shut it down i didn't like it but i appreciate it i didn't like crypto but i appreciated that it was a choice and he was like this thing is actually fucking important to me and it's going to be in the movie for 20 minutes and he keeps saving him like that's the thing.

50:03Andy Greenwald:I was surprised how much Superdog there was. I like it again. I think I overall liked it because I liked the ways that Gunn was just letting everyone know what DC comic book movies are going to be. He's not afraid to go towards the parts of the canon that most mainstream adaptations have run screaming from ever since the Batman show in the 60s. They're like, this is all part of it, and we just got to roll with it. And I've said it before, I'll say it again. That, I think, is one of the genius things of Grant Morrison in their comics, which is like, oh, it's all one story. You don't just cherry pick the cool parts.

50:48Andy Greenwald:The 60s Batman was a part of Batman lore, and we're going to have to wrestle with it in some fun or surprising way. So I kind of like that. The fact that the dog saved him so many times was kind of surprising. Yeah. The dog's facility with black holes. You don't see that a lot. You mean like avoiding them? Yeah. That's true. And like, why was everybody so nervous about the Proton River? Well, that was the thing. Like, so Mr. Terrific says that is a raging river of like negative energy protons. To go approach it would equal death. And then, four to six minutes later, Superman is fucking whitewater kayaking fighting himself while holding a baby.

51:29While holding a baby

51:29Andy Greenwald:and the dog's just like jumping from thing to thing. Yes. So, you know, forgive me, Superman. I wasn't familiar with that part of your game that you can just actually cannonball into a negative proton black hole river. But that's cool that he can. I mean, he can do anything as long as kryptonite's not evolved, right? It seems like it. I mean, and then as long as he gets that vitamin C. He's got to get his vitamin D, actually. Oh, no, I've done it completely wrong. Which one comes from oranges? C, but D is the sun. Yeah. Yeah. Great. What else didn't you like? So, oh, but last thing on the dog.

52:07Andy Greenwald:I did like that the dog's not his. Sure. Cool joke. It was a good joke. Or a good twist. And I liked also the way. I didn't see that coming. Oh, really? You didn't have that in your... I, again, it was like a thoughtful way. when we praise him for not putting you know scenes from future DC movies in the tags during the credits the other thing to say is he artfully wove all that into the main body of the movie itself so it's not like it's not like half the credits run and then ding dong at the Fortress of Solitude oh I have a cousin? It's like he's had a cousin Supergirl is here it's Millie Alcock from Sirens and House of the Dragon and And totally different vibe, totally different character.

52:56Andy Greenwald:The dog's her, so there's a little connective tissue. I thought that was artfully done and amusing. What else didn't you like? I think this might be a Superman problem, not a James Gunn version of Superman problem, but I don't really get up in the morning and be like, it's cool that that guy can just stop anything from falling on anyone. At the right moment? Yeah. And just like generally the action of Superman. I think the flying is cool. but generally speaking like I think the action is way too over the top with too many rules so he what does he just like throw the engineer in the ground really hard what happens to her?

53:36Andy Greenwald:Other than setting her up for the authority movie that they're going to make at some point? You don't want to get you don't want to talk Wildstorm comics? All right. Fine. What did he do? He flew into space and then crassions. Nobody gets killed. He doesn't kill anyone, is my point. Yes. Although it does sound like the president of Borrevio did not live through that fall. Yes, because Hawkgirl is not Superman. Yeah. Hawkgirl is an alien? I'm gonna have to get back to you on that. Okay. Because my understanding... She's a reincarnated alien. Are you goading me into saying Thanagar in this podcast?

54:13Andy Greenwald:I can't go there. But yes, when I googled it, I was like, why is she in a dorm room? And also, why are they making such a big deal about Superman being the only alien, but I guess she's the reincarnated alien. So it's a little bit of a loophole, you know, for her refugee status application. No, I'm just saying like when I read about Hawkgirl, it was like she, there was like all this stuff where it's like she's a reincarnated alien. Cool. And that's why she like kind of is on Team Supes. Right. As Guy Gardner is like, ah, fuck this guy. And she's like, I don't know. But he hangs with aliens. He's in an intergalactic space police force with aliens.

54:47And this is just all of them. their workshopping names to get to Justice League.

54:52Andy Greenwald:I mean, that's what I would think. Yeah. But wouldn't be, you never know. Okay. You could mix it up. Yeah, that's what he's doing, I guess. So yeah, the action was colorful and I guess, you know, thrilling. But I thought that the more like kind of down to earth moments worked better for me just because I find Superman to be kind of like a one note kind of action. Well, it's also, it's a, I think an issue that the movie, the original series of movies faced especially, which is like, okay, you're establishing him as the most powerful person alive. What are the stakes here? What is he going up against?

55:27Well, the stakes are basically that he has these like, he has a code he lives by, so like there are certain things that he doesn't really want to do, right? Like he doesn't want to just pull someone's head off their body.

55:37Andy Greenwald:Would you like him more if he did? That's the most excited I've seen you this whole pod. I think the other thing... I'm excited to talk about this. Here's the other thing. Gunn is a maximalist. So he wanted to take all the pieces of Superman that he's interested in and put them in the same movie. And I think that he is really, really talented so that he pulled it off. Right. That said, the most, I think, compelling modern idea about Superman, actually not modern idea because some of the first comics had him stopping wars. You know, like that's always been baked into these superheroes, especially the ones that came out of that era and out of the shadow of World War II.

56:13Andy Greenwald:But the idea of like what is his personal moral authority or responsibility to involve himself is a really rich text and a really compelling one. And I think that it was tough to integrate into such an already overstuffed movie. So that like you have these fictional countries that are either very cleverly hidden, you know, one-to-one comparisons to things in the real world or just really kind of ham-handed. I still haven't decided which is which.

56:48I think it was a ballsy move, but a bit ham-handed.

56:52Andy Greenwald:It's like a little bit of both. And I don't know the fix. I mean, is this the best version of it? But what was tricky about it is that it also wasn't alone because it was also part of Lex's plan to create his own country or to enrich himself or to whatever. So it is tied into the supervillain plot, but it also has, you know, like, refugees waving Superman flags and praying for him. There's also just, I guess what I'll say is it'll be interesting to see how that resolves itself in the storytelling, because he is making a world planet-sized epic here over the course of the DCU. The movie ends, or one of the endings, is Frank Grillo's character being like, I guess they're in charge now.

57:38Andy Greenwald:Or the other guy saying that to him. What's that going to look like? And is James Gunn the filmmaker, and is David Zaslav's Warner Brothers the studio that actually wants to walk down that path and have conversations about other movies? I don't think they actually do. I think they kind of want to tease and faint at it. Yeah, I think that this will be... I think that the way that he manages this enterprise going forward is probably of great interest to us on storytelling and a business side story. You know, like the idea of can you get away with telling really cool, somewhat siloed, unique stories?

58:21And he's already doing the thing that I think people are, I think that he did so well with Marvel by resurrecting Guardians from like the back of a drawer somewhere in the Marvel catalog is doing Clayface and Supergirl right after this. Yeah.

58:37Andy Greenwald:Well, in the same way of like doing who else are Superman's friends? Well, it's not Aquaman, Flash, and Wonder Woman. The people he knows are Green Lantern, but not the one you're thinking of. Yeah. And not that other one either. The third one. Mr. Terrific, character I was not familiar with. And then Hawkgirl. I think it's smart. And I think it's engaging. Well, it allows him to put his own stamp on it. And that's ultimately, I think, the thing for better and a little bit for worse is what you come away from this movie, is that you feel like you got a unique vision of the character and a unique vision of the world.

59:13I don't know how many of these he's going to direct or write. I'm very curious to see what his creative involvement. It was funny to go back and read the history, the recent history of this character and all the different sort of Henry Cavill pitches that had been made.

59:30Andy Greenwald:Oh, you mean within the recent history of the film version of the character. Yes, and in that, there is a little bit of Dick Cheney being like, well, Mr. President, I'd be happy to serve. You know, it's like he takes over DCU and does a lot of like, I couldn't possibly direct Superman before. It's like, guess what? I'm going to write and direct Superman. I thought it was interesting that he was talking about now. I don't think he had talked about this publicly before, but during the time when he was fired from Marvel. Yes. I forgot to mention that that is a major plot of this movie. Getting canceled?

1:00:06Andy Greenwald:Yes. For things that you don't feel were worthy of? Or not the totality of your character. That's great. Look at you finding the artist in the art. You're really good at this. He talks about how during that time, you know then he bereft he wandered the town and DC brought him in and like do you want to do anything he wandered the town stepping over all these dogs all these dogs and he was just like I love you I will be your champion he then Alan Horn who was then head of Disney films like called back like this isn't sitting right with me like let's see what we can do here and they basically said you're welcome back in a meeting with Gunn Alan Horn and Kevin Feige.

1:00:51Andy Greenwald:And he was like, this is beautiful. I've always, you know, I wanted to finish this with you. I love working with you guys, but I'm going to go do another movie first over at Warner Brothers because during this interregnum I've committed to it. And apparently Feige was like, are you fucking doing Superman? Like they knew, that was always the thing that he was going to do, even though he was playing very coy about it. But it's interesting. I mean, like I think that in the reading about it, Gunn was like, oh, I finally found like this personal connection with the character through my father and small towns and et cetera.

1:01:21And then it's like, yeah, but you also like, you were like riding high, you got brought down a little bit and now you're riding high again. It's like, that's the thing that interests him is the way the public reacts to the bit larger than life figures.

1:01:32Andy Greenwald:We have a Superman who scrolls social media sometimes. Did you believe that? Right across the table from me. Yeah, who definitely, definitely doesn't read the Menchies. Okay, so we can wrap it up there, I think. I mean, I found it fascinating. Yeah, I think it was a cool movie. Actually, I don't think it was cool, but I thought it was good. Do you think Superman's punk rock? No. I think James Gunn, his vision of this is like outsiders becoming, you know, the insider. I think it's like, I got what that was about, but I don't think that this is... I think he's really good with music. I mean, I liked the hard cut to that Teddy Bear song from 20 years ago.

1:02:15Andy Greenwald:shout out shout out the Swedish art punk collective teddy bears featuring the singer from a band I used to like called Caesars like good for them maybe they get a little something off of that and I also just like I do still like the fun that he clearly has that is like very much informed I think by like the Roger Corman era of his career when I think the idea of being able to be the guy to make any shit like this would have been impossible to imagine just that like I'm going to go so far as to create a fake pop punk band for young Clark Kent to have liked, for Lois to not have liked, to then make a poster of, to then, you know, art direct a song that will play in the closing credits of this movie.

1:02:58Yes.

1:02:59Andy Greenwald:That's fun. Yeah. That's fun shit. It's a depth of feeling for the material. And sometimes I think that that is the thing that we've lost over the last 10 or 15 years with this stuff is just kind of a like, yeah, yeah, just stand in front of those tennis balls. We're going to draw it in later. don't worry about it. Like, you actually have to think through like what's in the frame. What are the interpersonal relationships between these people? I think that the main, the divider here is that this is the guy who loves comic books and he loves comic book movies full stop. And you, and this is a celebration of them and it celebrates some things that I think you and I are tired of.

1:03:34Andy Greenwald:Just like the giant buildings crashing into each other punching. But at no point does it ever apologize for itself for being a comic book or a comic book movie. there's a fucking flying dog that saves the day there's no moment in this where you think you know what there's nothing of here? the director bullshit we still make fun of he was not out there being like actually this is Butch Cassidy he just happens to be wearing a cape instead of holding a six shooter no he's like this is Superman and that's actually kind of refreshing don't run away from what you're doing it's actually kind of refreshing alright no show Thursday as it is wellness week here at Spotify we gotta recover from our kryptonite poisoning we will be back next week we'll have a mailbag and then an Andy Andy hosted episode because I'm out of town Kai should I just solo it?

1:04:21I don't think we're not going to be together for a couple weeks I hate that I hate that

1:04:26Andy Greenwald:I think the quality suffers honestly when you're not here? when sorry? thanks to Kai thanks to John we will be back soon and enjoy your weeks

1:04:44This is U.S. Bank's Cozy Cash Formations with your chief financial playmaker, Fernando Mendoza.

1:04:51Andy Greenwald:You are worthy of financial security. Budgeting is not restriction. It's freedom. You are smart. You are capable. You are giving your money a purpose. You are learning the language of saving, of growing. now streaming. Member FDIC, Copyright 2026, U.S. Bank. Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this, kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu Now streaming on Disney+. Rated PG-13.