‘Survivor’ Season 50 Finale, ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 5, and All-Time Episodic Runs With Joanna Robinson

22:13Joanna Robinson:Like, there's just a real Duffer Brothers ethos that seems clear inside of these shows. It feels... Yeah, and I was almost surprised watching these first two episodes. So just as like a brief, the logline is, in a seemingly picturesque retirement community, a group of unlikely heroes must band together to stop an otherworldly threat from stealing the one thing they don't have, dot, dot, dot, time. This is basically set at a Villages-esque retirement community, but with maybe a few MAGA-inclined seniors who are trading STDs. I don't know if anybody has ever seen The Villages documentary, but it's quite a thing.

22:50The show opens with a very amblin'd-out set piece with Dee Wallace, who people will know from E.T., and Ed Begley Jr., and what seems to be an alien, and lots of hints, and lots of Easter eggs and stuff, and then turns into a really well-observed occasionally amusing really well acted given the cast show that is basically like fine for 45 minutes and then has in each episode like a pretty

23:20Joanna Robinson:what the fuck yeah last five minutes and so the Duffers know what they're doing Alfred Molina plays the main character Sam Cooper who's a widower who's just moved to the Burroughs Alfred friggin Woodard plays an ex-investigative journalist who is living there with her husband Art who is played by Clark Peters from The Wire who plays like a stoner who's kind of just doing yoga and playing golf but also some other stuff. Dennis O 'Hare plays a terminally ill resident of the facility and then Gina Davis is somehow qualifying for senior citizen now. They keep iterating like we're in our 60s. We're spry young.

23:59Joanna Robinson:We're the youth. We're just getting ahead of the curve here. Bill Pullman also very important inside of this. Yeah. To your point, Right. The cat, like, you know, when I watched the trailer, I was like, wow, this incredible cast that they've assembled. And also like, do I feel my age that, you know, these actors, especially when you see like Bill Pullman and Geena Davis, and you're just thinking about a league of their own or something like that, you know, like these actors who we grew up with, we're like, oh, they're populating the retirement community. Is this what people felt like when they watched Cocoon in the 80s or whatever, you know, this is very Stranger Things meets Cocoon energy.

24:34Joanna Robinson:The Amblin, you know, swing that they're making, which they obviously made with Stranger Things. Stuff rattling on the shelves. Yeah, all of that stuff is here. The cul-de-sac, etc. But it's so well acted. Yeah. And I was just sort of like I was thinking, I was like, if this show were a bunch of 60-somethings that I've not seen in other things, I'd be far less interested. A bunch of 60-something influencers who just popped in popped into TV. Oh my God. Yeah. The TikTokers are going to get old, man. That's that stuff. But but Alfred Molina is so good. Bill Pullman's so good. Ebick Lee Jr. is so good.

25:12Joanna Robinson:Gina Davis, Alfred E. What? Clark Peters. Fantastic. And so it's just, you know, it's just really well done. And a script that I'm not sure is. And the other question I have, we've only watched the first two episodes, but this is the perfect kind of fun theory show. There's just a lot of mysteries. It's very like, don't worry, darling, what's happening here sort of thing. But it's a binge drop. And so by the time that some of your listeners are listening to this, they've already watched the full season and they know what happens in the show. We still are like, what's in the walls? And where is the key?

25:45Joanna Robinson:And what's happening? You know, that's like, I was kind of thinking about that because we're about to talk about these two episodes of Widow's Bay that have been coming out. It's a weekly episodic drop and the way in which one episode can build on another. and now like I think anticipation for the sixth episode of Widow's Bay will be at like this fever pitch after these last two and you just don't get that with this and in some ways I feel like they almost write these shows knowing that I'm I'm not sure some of these things get sold to Netflix and may get recut lately but like this was probably I think if it comes from the Duffers like brought through the Duffers right deal that they had with Netflix for the pre-existing one guys who worked for Netflix before.

26:25Joanna Robinson:Yeah. Yeah. It really does feel like if you cut together all of the domestic Alfred Molina scenes of him having like reveries of his late wife played by Jane Casameric. Is that? Casameric. Yeah. Who people know from Malcolm Middle. Or Alfre Woodard sitting at her breakfast nook kind of thinking about stuff. Like that's this domestic drama that I don't know if you would be able to distinguish necessarily episode one from episode three because there's a lot of repeated kind of gestures and scenes. Yeah. But then all the stuff that's like lore and the weirdness of this. Who's stealing the rose quartz.

26:59Joanna Robinson:Yeah. And all of Gina Davis's stuff from her arts and crafts studios getting stolen. And there is, like you said, don't worry, darling, like a little bit of a Stepford Wives element to what's going on with the guy who runs this place. The founder, yeah, exactly. All the stuff with Seraphim, which, you know, is a, like, basically alien presence angels, which is what they call their Alexa in this place and all of the condos are kind of hardwired with this. But Alfred Molina very specifically ripped his out of the wall when he got there. He is an engineer. Everybody's got their little special skills.

27:32That's the thing.

27:32Joanna Robinson:We've got a doctor. We've got an investigative journalist and we've got Gina Davis who's into crystals which will come in handy. I'm sure it will happen. So like everyone having their occupation that will be helpful. But also I agree. Something I really do appreciate is this idea of like a vulnerable and you get this with kids but a population that no one's going to believe or is easily dismissed. Or they can be like you're having, you know, maybe you're starting to have dementia. Yeah, Ed Begley Jr.'s character in the first couple episodes here. But yeah, so watching out from Melina, who, something I do appreciate about these episodes, and again, I've only seen two, is like how we're not so far ahead of, like he's quick on the investigative piece, you know, and he will probably draw the rest of them into this as they go forward.

28:20Joanna Robinson:But like, you know, he's already like, I saw something and I'm not believing the story they're telling about what I saw. I'm not even like so old that I need to be here. So I know I saw something. I know I saw something. And so he's already investigating. So it's not like we saw the thing which we did in the in the cold open and we're just waiting around for people to figure out that there's like aliens in this show. They're with us. But how quickly, like when he talks to his daughter, the great gentleman alone is here, like uh that how quickly he sounds unhinged and how easy it's going to be for him to be discounted and so like that that you know the commentary that the show can make about how we treat our elders and how we dismiss our elders is a potentially rich vein uh inside of the show i mean this is also um i'll say set in new mexico shot in new mexico and like the vince gilligan universe i think it's always nice when a show is just like yeah this is where we're shooting it so like we're gonna have not elements of New Mexico culture but like it looks like the kind of place where you're like how like where is this village and it's like New Mexico is the kind of place yeah those places middle of the desert like Area 51's over here and then right next to this yeah exactly uh and yeah I think it just like looks really good I have this weird thing with shows like this which I would describe as like a B tier Netflix show where the binge is almost like if I don't keep watching this right now, I may just stop, you know?

29:51And, uh, but I, I like, I, I enjoyed what I watched and I'll try to give it some more.

29:55Joanna Robinson:To your point about the launch. I watched this, uh, a couple of days ago. I started, we had the screeners for it. I started the screener and then you're like, Hey, I want to talk about the show. And I just opened up Netflix and realized it's now out, you know, like, and there was just no fanfare between when it moved from my screener row to like it's just a show that's out there but I'll be curious I I remember watching the trailer when it came out earlier this year and I was like this could either really be something or just a lot of older people have Netflix also I will say that there's a lot of really good details especially in the first episode of like the D Wallace character like watching Jeopardy and answering all the questions and then kind of watching Golden Girls and like there there's some really like good understanding without being the CPAP machine condescending.

30:41Joanna Robinson:Yeah. The CPAP machine machine being like, and Bill Pullman's great in, in what, what we get from him. Um, have, have you watched the trailer of this? No. Okay. Then I won't, I won't say what I saw. Does it give further like, it gives, it gives an indication of something that's going to happen that I am, am uninterested in happening. Okay. So you let me know when you get there. We'll have to check back out. I will. I want to talk to you about Widow's Bay. Yes. We can do this one of two ways. We can do the episodes thing first and talk about Widows Bay second or we can just chat. I know you've been discussing it with Rob, so I don't want to make you double it up too much.

31:18Joanna Robinson:Episode four is my favorite episode of television I've seen this year, so I'm happy to talk about it as much as possible. And I will spoil Andy's takes where he is like, this is probably the best thing I've seen this year, like by far. Yeah. I've also started to notice anecdotally more and more people being like, holy shit, Widows Bay. Like, so it does feel like it's starting to get like a little bit of heat in the streets. Have you noticed that? Van was just in here and I had been hammering him to watch it. And he was like, yeah, and then I was on the phone with Chris and Chris was like, hanging up the phone and watching it.

31:50Joanna Robinson:I was like, oh, I see. When I told you to watch it, you didn't, but Chris told you to watch it. And you did. He's like, no, both of you are equally important. Anyway, you got Van to watch it. Devil and angel on his shoulder. He loves it. Actually, Van is the devil on both of our shoulders. But yeah. Correct, correct. Yeah, absolutely. it's kicking up uh in the conversation which is great it deserves it like it is so it's a miracle of a show is how it feels you know I was reading a recap of it on vulture and I realized that I am not actually like I'm so blown away by a the comic performances and just the staging of the whole thing and how for me even just watching on my screen at home three-dimensional the town feels already where I'm like oh yeah and I kind of know where this is and now yeah they have to drive here and I've already settled so into the landline technology and like all these things about it that I have not really been like hardcore clocking the underlying lore of the town that I think is going to become increasingly important over the second half of the season and we get a little bit of this at the uh historical society in this most recent episode shout out jerry it speaks to the wonder of the show where it's like it's there it's gonna matter but it is in so many shows that would be foregrounded there is a lesser version of this show that is like what do you mean the mayor's wife you know like from like we're piecing together all this stuff and this is so confident in the moves it's pulling and the characters it's developed that they can have that kind of like down in the faders.

33:29Joanna Robinson:I agree with you. And I think there's confidence across the board. Like with their, you know, something that Rob and I are tracking in our coverage is like, you know, we're doing sort of, it's hard to talk about comedy in a week to week kind of way. Tell me about it. It's comedy month of Rewatchables. It's difficult. But like the categories that we're sort of trying to frame this around, we have something that's like obvious joke and then we have something that's throwaway joke. Yes. And those are kind of hard to distinguish on this show, but there's just so many little jokes of like something written down somewhere and the camera doesn't zoom in on it and make sure you saw it.

34:02Joanna Robinson:It just rewards you if you took the time to look at it. Did you see Katie Dippold on Script Notes? Script Notes, yeah. And so this is John August and Craig Mason's podcast where they talk a lot about like the very fine details of like screenwriting and production. And Mason is just like, I am in awe of this show. Like you guys, do you know how hard it is to shoot that much at night? do you know how hard it is to like get your production design team to make the teeth game and it's going to be a one second throwaway joke but it's like it's just some pliers in a box and I know from talking to Andy how hard that stuff is like when he was working on Briar Patch and he was like yeah like I want like he was like we wanted to do this beer label on our beer bottles but we couldn't so we had to do you know it's like and he's like and that took like a week a week of like cumulative meetings about this beer bottle that's going to be in the back of a scene and to see it get like, I'm picking up on those little things and it's just, it's encapsulated in the Chris Fleming performance in this most recent episode to speak to your point about obvious joke and throwaway joke.

35:07Yeah. Where, I mean, the funniest thing that I've seen this year is him being like, just don't look at a mirror and then he closes the door and it's a full door mirror. It's just really fucking good.

35:18Joanna Robinson:I just also really love the delivery of like when Patty reckoned and she's like, Todd O 'Connor? and you're like, hey, Patty. You know, just like a real throwaway. Oh, is that Coke? Yeah, you know? Or like, I have to go because my girlfriend's cat absconded or whatever. It's just so funny. Chris Fleming is so good in this episode. But also just like something that Rob and I did in our coverage of episode five is we went through like drug trip episodes that have been like really great throughout TV history. It's a formula that like almost always hits for me. But I really appreciated, you know, going back and looking at like Mad Men episodes or that Roseanne episode, et cetera, et cetera.

35:51Joanna Robinson:I love the artistry of Alex P. Keaton on caffeine pills. There you go. Yeah. I love the artistry of the lights going out and coming back up as Tom blips in and has time. And it's just sort of like, especially when he's, when you come up on the gas station and the car is just sort of like, you know, off kilter and just like all the lights come back on on the set as Tom is waking up. And it's just like, it looks incredible. I always forget her name. who's the actress who plays the woman who's with him at the gas station? Oh, Rosemary. Dale. Dale Dickey. Dale Dickey. Yeah. She has now been present for two, like the fact that she is there for Patricia's witch ceremony.

36:34Yeah. Burning Man. Yeah. And then also for Tom's gas station and is completely non-blussed by either. Unbothered.

36:42Joanna Robinson:Knew about the hag. Heckled Tom into the hotel. What does Rosemary know? What has she seen? That this is just like completely unbothered. I hope that's the thing also about this series. I've been thinking a lot about X-Files just because I know they are going to, they're obviously rebooting it with Ryan Coogler and Daniel Dedweiler. But I saw that there's like a Chris Carter director's cut coming of I Want to Believe on DVD. Oh my God. On Blu-ray. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I've just been thinking about like maybe what a miracle that show is, but also like those were, we had something where it was like, you can make something that flits in between the monster of the week and the season-long story and the larger conspiracy and i don't know that they want to make this show for eight years and ever put up episode numbers like uh like x-files but there's no reason why this couldn't have like a slow horses run where they are like i'm curious about that like how long they can sustain the mysteries and the lore like how much is going to be wrapped up at the end of this season how much do they have does katie have the mentality of that a lot of tv creators have now which is like put everything on the board because you don't know if you're going to get another season or how much is she thinking about it in a long-term kind of way you know it's so funny you should mention that because i was when i was looking at episodic runs in great tv shows and maybe even not all-time great tv shows but great episodic runs and i in so many of them you can see the way TV changes as you go through the years to, you know, we have to go back.

38:17Joanna Robinson:Lost. Probably be in like the first season if they were doing Lost today. Yeah, but also they wouldn't even, like by the time we have to go back, you're 60 episodes into Lost. Yes. To go back to your X-Files point, I was actually just talking to a friend of mine who's watching it for the first time right now, X-Files. And she's like, I don't know that I, I don't know that it's as good as everyone was hyping it for me. And we were talking about why I, you know, I was like, you got to get to the Darren Morgan episodes. And she got to the Darren Morgan episodes and she's like, okay, sometimes great, but there's a lot of stretch.

38:50Joanna Robinson:And so, and she's a huge Buffy Vampire Slayer fan. So they were running similar at the similar time with similar episode counts. So why does that show work for her? And this one doesn't. And we were talking about the depth of the cast because in Buffy Vampire Slayer or in Widow's Bay, we have a whole town of people that I am invested in. And with X-Files, it's just Mulder and Scully. Like, you've got some other characters, but it's really— But they're always meeting these people. It's really just Mulder and Scully. And the beauty of a 22, 24-episode season, the example I always love to bring up is from Lost, which is the season three episode, Trisha Tanaka is Dead, where they just—Hurley and Jin and Sawyer and Charlie get a VW van restarted.

39:34Joanna Robinson:That's the episode, basically. And a lot of people, like, think it's a throwaway, but it's not because you're just investing in characters and you're spending time with characters. And they get to interact with each other. And so those 22, 24 episode seasons, you know, The Pit does this really well where we're just, we have like a broad swath of characters. It's inviting us to just hang with them and spend time with them and emotionally invest in them. And that's what Widows Bay is doing really well. Like the sort of horror trope of the week thing that they're doing is really funny, but also like I'm invested in Patricia being shunned by all the girls she went to high school with.

40:07Joanna Robinson:I'm invested in Tom's relationship with his son, you know? Like, I care about Wick and Jerry's, like, dating background, you know? And, like, I'm interested in what's going on with Rosemary. What's Ruth Steele? And what's happening with Dale, you know? And this is the Katie Dippel Parks and Recreation DNA that's inside of this show. But it's just created such—I don't—I would want to hang out with these characters for seasons and seasons of television. I mean, this script has been around for a long time, like, the Widow's Bay script. I'm curious. I would love to read earlier drafts of it and I would love to know because to me the iceberg is nobody born on the island can leave the island.

40:45That's obviously why he's been keeping his son on the island. Whether or not he, the son is truly like because in my house we've been debating like if this kid's so naughty why hasn't he tried to get onto a ferry yet? So does he know maybe intrinsically he shouldn't? That's like the one thing he shouldn't do. but if you were to save that for the cliffhanger of the end of the first season right that would be like kind of a little bit more of what traditional tv would do but instead that's introduced i think in the middle of the second episode or something yeah i feel like we're getting a lot of lore really quickly yeah yeah yeah and that's that's great because you know

41:22Joanna Robinson:that's something of course is something like lost a show that i love but was accused of withholding answers. More and answers. So, yeah. Okay, so I want to do this little exercise with you here. Widows Bay is on episodes four and five. Pretend like you have not seen any more Widows Bay. I know that you guys just recorded. They are dropping six and seven together next week. Yeah. Is this a Memorial Day thing? No, I don't think it's a spoiler to say because they've been leading up to this. Episode six is titled Our History. So it's like a flashback sort of thing. So I think they want to drop a more standard episode along with it to make it, you know, to not make you feel like I have to wait another week to check back in with characters I care about.

42:02So they've begun this kind of like, I would say episodes four and five, especially for everybody kind of responded to. I loved five as well. Yeah. I mean, you could say three is the hotel episode and you could say they've already gone on a run in this. For the sake of our conversation, I'm classifying a run as three episodes or more. Two episodes is good. Three episodes is a run. And so now that we're watching Widow's Bay do this, I wanted to like talk a little bit about when I asked you this question, did you have an immediate response?

42:32Joanna Robinson:You know what? So sometimes, you know, whenever I get to go on the watch and you give me prompts, I get excited because I love talking about the history of television. I'd already done the homework for this because a year ago when Mal and I were doing like our Buffy rewatches, in Buffy Vampire Season 2 is my all-time favorite run of episodes of television. And then I tweeted it out. I said, is this the best run of episodes of television? And then I got a bunch of responses. I was like, I already did my homework. We're great. So that's why it became prompt Twitter. Yeah, exactly. But Buffy season two, which is, and normally I would hesitate to bring my nerdier genre stuff to the watch, but this is Widow's Bay, so here we are.

43:18Joanna Robinson:Buffy season two, which is Surprise and Innocence, which is widely regarded as one of the best sort of turns of a plot that has ever happened in a show where our love interest on the show, Angel the vampire, loses his soul and becomes the villain of the show. And this is just like early Joss Whedon, we didn't know you could do this on television sort of stuff. So that's the two-parter Surprise and Innocence. Incredibly good. Phases, which is this great Seth Green werewolf episode, just like Seth Green finds out that he's a werewolf. Incredible. I remember that. Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered, which is Xander fucks up a spell and like all the girls of Sunnydale want to tear his clothes off.

43:56Kind of like Obsession. Yeah.

43:58Joanna Robinson:And then Passion, which happens to be my favorite episode of all time of Buffy Vampire Slayer, which again is another spoilers for season two of Buffy, which aired 20 plus years ago. A major character dies in the first time that Joss Whedon ever did that in a way that I was 16 when I saw it and I was like, I didn't know you could do this in storytelling. I don't think my wife has recovered yet. Yeah. So that run to me, starting with Surprise and Innocence, phases in Bewish Bothered Bewildered, though they're the kind of like quirky standalone. There's a werewolf episode. There's a witchcraft episode.

44:30Joanna Robinson:They're incredibly good. And then Passion is just an all-timer. And that is just like an incredible run. Did you watch it when it was on? I did. And do you remember being in the throes of like, I literally can't wait for Buffy to be on. This is so incredible. Did you even subconsciously understand that you were watching like a successive episode run kind of? I don't know. Well, so I'm the exact same age as Buffy. So I was 16 when this was airing. And I think I told this story. Grew up in a hell mouth. We're in County, California. But like my, I wasn't allowed to watch TV on weeknights when Buffy was airing.

45:09Joanna Robinson:I think I probably had gotten in trouble and that was my punishment or something like that. So I had a friend who would tape it and bring it to school for me. That's so clutch. And she passed brought me passion. And she was just like, if you can watch this before the weekend, that would be great. And I found a way to do it. And I was just, and, but that was before like, the internet couldn't ruin it for me. We weren't online in that way. So it's not like I was going to get spoiled necessarily, but she just really wanted to talk to me about what happened and went passion very specifically. That's when I knew I was watching something incredibly important.

45:44Joanna Robinson:been thinking about for a long time yeah that's my life that's my number one tv death of all time i think just because of when it hit like who i was how it changed how i understand how television works yeah i mean i think that was the thing that was sort of awesome about that nascent period of tv going into what we consider golden age and prestige where there's all this rule breaking happening but because i i don't even know if the executives in charge knew what was they had on their hands so like obviously like I know that Buffy had like plenty of budget and you know head butting going on behind the scenes with like their their network execs and stuff like that but like sometimes you would just be like home on like a Wednesday night watching something and you'd be like is anybody else seeing this like this is crazy yeah I felt that way when I watched Battlestar season one oh yeah no I was just like this is this happening like you know my number one pick for this run that I felt pretty immediately was Succession Season 2 Episodes 2 through 4 that's Valter that's Hunting which is Bore on the Floor Safe Room which is one of my favorite Succession episodes of all time is it because of how often you love to throw water bottles in Andy?

46:58it's just it is the it is the episode that I think is peaked Jeremy Strong yeah I thought that was the best. And he and Shiv are just like in another planetary atmosphere in that episode.

47:13Joanna Robinson:That's the hug. It's not going to be me. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah. And then actually. I love Turnhaven. Turnhaven. I love it. That's one of my favorites. The only reason why I sometimes give Turnhaven a demerit is it is also the first time that I got mad at Succession because I did not think Shiv and Kendall were sufficiently acknowledging what had just transpired. Now you can say like, that's just that family. And this is also TV and all those other things. But I'm like, they had like this insanely vulnerable moment and Shiv got this incredibly important piece of information that obviously Kendall is being blackmailed not to put himself forward as CEO.

47:55Right. And so why is that not ever even acknowledged in the next episode?

48:00Joanna Robinson:Oh, like a real glee moment where like from episode to episode. And it also felt like they reset and just became like banter twins again. So Turnhaven is awesome though. But those three I especially love. I mean, hunting, incredible. Walter, very good. The thing that Turnhaven does that showcases what Succession does so well is like just introduce you to a whole new cast of characters that you have like mere minutes to sort of get, learn who all these pierces are. And it's just, and it feels very theatrical and they got a bunch of theater talents in to play these roles. And I just. It's so funny to like to go see plays in the intervening years.

48:39Yeah. How many pierces are just like in a play. Exactly. Yeah.

48:43Joanna Robinson:They just raided Broadway for this episode. But yeah, I love Turnhaven. It's like the pierces and all of Gilded Age. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was another one that you liked? You already claimed some of my favorites, so I will let you get to those. But I'll do another genre one. Doctor Who. I talk about this one all the time. Silence in the Library. This is the end of David Tennant's run as the 10th Doctor. So Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead, which is an all-time two-parter set in a library on a planet somewhere. And then Midnight, which is my favorite episode of Doctor Who, which is like a standalone David Tennant with a bunch of random characters on a train.

49:25Joanna Robinson:And it's just this bottle episode chamber horror piece, like essentially like an Agatha Christie horror thing that happens on a space train. I love Midnight. Turn Left, which then showcases the companion of that season. And then Stolen Earth and Journey's End, which is, it was like Avengers Endgame before Avengers Endgame. They brought back all the characters. All the characters from all the seasons for this incredible, like two parter. That is, um, you know, and, and I think Tennant is the best doctor we've ever had. And, um, it's, they just gave him banger after banger. And Stephen Moffat, who, who wrote Silence of the Library, Forest of the Dead, like this was a real audition for her to, for him to take over, which he did when Matt Smith started as the doctor.

50:08Um, is it widely regarded as, by other Doctor Who fans as like peak Doctor Who? Or is that like a...

50:14Joanna Robinson:I will say... Or is this a joke? I will say Silence in the Library, Forest of the Dead is widely regarded as like an incredible two-parter and then the two-parter at the end of the run. Midnight in turn left because they are so odd. But I think in the side of these runs, and this is a good case. I'll be curious what you think of Widow's Bay episode six. Like, can you have a run of like two episodes that are very much in keeping with the show? And then a diversion. Yeah, one that's like sort of off... that if it's incredibly good, does that just prove what the show can do even more? Yeah, and it's funny that I picked Succession and I was looking at some of the big blockbuster shows that we've covered over the years.

50:52And I was going through Thrones seasons.

50:55Joanna Robinson:Yeah. The run up to the children is like incredible. I agree. But then you also look at the five episodes before that and you're like, those are pretty good too. Can I just do all of season four? Yeah. So that's, with genre shows and especially with shows that are adapted, maybe like 10 episode seasons yeah you know yes um my next one was i just i forgot that this was the case the last three better call salt episodes before breaking bad time takes over and this is basically the end of howard and uh gus is locked in chess maneuvering with lalo about the meth lab holy shit yeah holy shit i was watching clips from this last night to refresh my memory and like kim with lalo and all the stuff that mike is trying to shows up at their yeah at the apartment and also we were just so locked in because they had their plan in post-its and so we were just sort of i was like pouring over the post-its and like and the end of howard is so tragic and and what's happening kim in that moment is so hard to watch but irresistible and you want to root for Jimmy and Kim, but you're like, what are we doing?

52:09But she's just self-aware enough to be like, my soul died here, so we can't be together anymore. Oh, it's so good. And then, not for nothing, they just do more episodes of Breaking Bad after that, which is fucking crazy.

52:24Joanna Robinson:I had a Better Call Saul run from the previous season, which is Wexler versus Goodman, JMM, Bagman, Bad Choice Road. something unforgivable. That might be better. That might be better. It's just, Better Call Saul was just unbelievable. Yeah. Unbelievable television. Let me ask you one. Yeah. Did you have, so I put down Andor, the prison arc eight through ten season one. Did you have a different Andor arc? I do. Only because I saw you put the prison arc on there and the Narkina arc is so good. Yeah. But the Gorman arc in season two, I think also, and like this, Andor's the perfect show because you have these three episode chunks.

53:04Joanna Robinson:And I was like, does the Gorman arc beat the Narkina arc for me? And I don't know what does only because the Narkina arc is where we realize what we had in Andor, right? And you get the Luthan speech and you get the, you know, Loy speech like in the same fucking episode. Yeah, and it's also like the peak of like, oh, Ebbing Moss Bacharach is going to come out for three episodes. It's just like you can't really like feel too safe with anyone. Right. Because your favorite character might get killed in two episodes. Absolutely. Nemec. That guy. So, yeah. So the Aldani arc into the Narkina arc of season one are just incredible.

53:42Joanna Robinson:The Gorman arc, I think the Gorman arc at the end of the day might be stickier for me because I know you and I were like really into tracking all of the French Resistance comps in season two. And then the end of the Gorman arc, which we have the Cyril-Cassian showdown, which is one of the best moments in all of the history of television to me. I agree with you, yeah. And then also the feeling we all had that we're almost out of Andor. Yeah, and then Mon Mothma's escape is the next episode, isn't it? He's the next episode after that, right? And then we only have two more, you know, like the - And then it's Clea and Lonnie and everyone else.

54:17Yeah, time was just like running the fuck out.

54:19Joanna Robinson:And so like that was part of it too, where it was just like, it was just slipping through our hands as we were watching it. Yeah, oh man. Because like when we watched season one, we were like, maybe we'll get five seasons of Andor. And then by the time of season two, you're like, Tony, Tony's like, this is it. When I did that pod with Sean, I was watching. I just kept watching the conference room scene of them putting down the shades and being like, Cal kite, you know, we just got to get it out. What are we going to do about these Gorman people? And I was like, I don't know. This might just be like a top five show for me of all time now.

54:51What to do about limited series or anthology series here is interesting because I think there's a lower degree of difficulty if you're just going to do six episodes for your middle block to be really good you know like first episode it's like okay meeting these people last episode there's often a little bit of a kind of like winding down clunkiness to it usually i think you and i both have a couple of shows that either intentionally or not intentionally wind up only being one season um i threw out i threw out the middle three episodes of chernobyl I don't even in my mind have like a and then this happened and then this happened I just remember the vibe of it but I also watched Chernobyl

55:34Joanna Robinson:way after the point and I thought the end of Chernobyl was a bit, not my speed but like the middle is just really great and then I have episodes 3 through 5 of the first season of True Detective which is Locked Room, Pucco's There which is the famous tracking shot and Secret Fate of All Life which is nuts. So if you have any like limited or one season ones, we could talk about those. Yeah. So Fargo season two, episodes seven through nine. So did you do this? I know you did it. Lop, lop in the castle. The castle is flying saucer at the motel. Part of it is like, are these three episodes in isolation really good?

56:15Joanna Robinson:Yes. But part of it also is the experience of having watched Fargo season one and saying, what is this incredible episode of television? and it was Fargo the best show that's ever happened. That's how Fargo season one felt to me at the time. And then Fargo season two happened and another incredible cast. But at first I was like, I don't know that they have it and I'm unsure about Kirsten Dunst here and like, is what I want from Jesse Plummons and et cetera, et cetera. Allison told me it's season one or two. Two. Two. Yeah.

56:47And then, no, she's season one, sorry.

56:51Joanna Robinson:Season one. She's season one. Okay. because season two is when you have Patrick Wilson playing Keith Haring. Her dad, right? But Chris Emiliati is here. Like, it's an incredible cast. Sam McLaren is here, et cetera, et cetera. But when you get to the motel and it's just like flying, you know, Kirsten Dunn's saying to Jesse Plemons, yeah, it's a flying saucer and we got a goal. You're like, oh, Fargo season two rips, you know? And so that's when you get the reassurance. The same thing can happen with Andor because I remember the first three episodes of season one of Andor, we were all like, we're not entirely sure.

57:28Joanna Robinson:Of season one. Of season one. And then the Aldani and Arkina. So like when you're like, oh, they know they're cooking. They know what they're doing. Like that feeling is so strong. Yeah, for Andor, it's very specific because we didn't have the pre-existing, even if it was like in the press notes, you didn't really understand how it was going to feel to do. it's the three episodes and then there's going to be a time jump and a location change and a character ensemble change um with Fargo I remember feeling like so cynical about the TV project in general oh yeah you know and then by season two just being like this is actually like an incredible proof of concept that TV can do stuff that's just truly truly remarkable when it comes adaptation and riffing.

58:12I couldn't decide what my Watchmen run was. You put this down, but I knew it was in there and I think you nailed it. But this is another good example of like, I know it was in the middle for me somewhere, but I think you're going towards the ending, right? Like on the second half.

58:27Joanna Robinson:It's close, right? Little Fear of Lightning, this extraordinary being and almost religious awe. God walks into a bar and see how they fly. Yeah. You know, that's like half the season. Yeah. You could trim Little Fear of Lightning and see how they fly off and just do this extraordinary being in almost religious awe and God walks into a bar and just sort of absolutely crush it. I mean, Watchmen is so special. It's really cool that when, because if you ever listened to, Damon was on House of R, Damon Lindorf went on House of R. It was an awesome, awesome podcast. Thank you. Now being aggregated to death, but that's okay.

59:01But I still kind of freak out. Like sometimes I'll be talking to him and I'll just be like, God damn dog. You made Watchmen. You made some hits. You made Lost. Too many leftovers. I know.

59:11Joanna Robinson:This extraordinary being being the like nostalgia episode, right? Like one of the best episodes of television ever. And then God Walks Into a Bar also being like God-tier television. So that, those three and almost religious, like Watchmen. I know. Remember how Watchmen happened? I know. Thank you so much for doing this. You don't want to talk about Lost though since we're here with David? Okay, so if I was like, what's the three best episode run in Lost? is there a run that comes? Is it season 3, 17 through 20, which culminates with we have to go back or is there a different one? I think without question, it is greatest hits through the Licking Glass part one through the Licking Glass part two.

59:54Joanna Robinson:We have to go back. Because the greatest hits, which is this Charlie episode, like leading, you know, like talking about TV deaths, right? The death of Charlie at the end of season three of Lost, spoilers for Lost, is incredible. television and spoilers for better call Saul too. Yes. Sorry, Howard. Um, but like, uh, Charlie as a character on rewatching lost. And, you know, I did a podcast rewatching every episode of loss and like Charlie, the character does not work for most of season three. Cause they had the way that Damon puts it. They arced out Charlie. They like did all of his stuff too early and then they just didn't know what to do with him.

1:00:31Joanna Robinson:Right. And so they, um, so he's just like running back the same, you know drug loop over and over again and so you're frustrated with his character and and then you get something like greatest hits which is charlie going back through the moments of his life that he's sort of like he he's been given this prophecy you're gonna die brother right and so the the episode before he's gonna die and like you know you're watching television you're like are they gonna subvert that what are they gonna do no he just dies force ghosts yeah but you care so much more about it because you had this episode before which could feel cheap if not done well of just sort of this one character reflecting back on his life and all the little moments that he is proud of a time that he like helped a woman who was getting her purse snatched the time that he was at a community pool with his dad as a kid but it's just it's done so well and and and a perfect encapsulation of what the the lost flashback structure can do yeah that leading into charlie's death which coincides with this big lore it was a flash forward you were watching this whole time moment, which like the sort of Buffy thing changed television forever and people have been chasing that high forever.

1:01:40Joanna Robinson:I don't think you beat it. It's so good. Was there a different Thrones run? No, I think the end of four is like, because I can name you isolated standout episodes. Yes. That I think are better, but in terms of like, because I really think five is when, I think five is when things start going wrong for Thrones and that's earlier than a lot of people think. uh no that's six five is like sansa's wedding and stuff like that like i think five is the early germs of things going wrong i remember five when's hard home is five five five or six because hard home is when i kind of was like five oh i wonder if it's gonna feel like this where there's like two or three episodes that are like okay oh pretty good yeah there's sort of game of thrones episodes but it's a lot of like two people walking and talking and then there is a blockbuster movie and then there's three episodes and then there's a blockbuster movie.

1:02:32Yeah. But four, four, I remember just being like so fully captivated and also like so, so invested with the characters at that point. Yeah.

1:02:42Joanna Robinson:And like the way that The Children ends with a joke we used to make at the time is everyone you love is on a boat. Like all these people just like getting on a boat to go. So the possibility of like opening the world was so exciting. That was my favorite part about it. And then that's just like a problem they had. and the world got too open and they had to bring him back down but four i think is like and on rewatch it's the last for me the end of four is the last time where i'm like they just knew exactly what they were doing yeah it almost is like that's when it felt like they still wanted to keep making it yeah you know or they weren't thinking about or they were excited super excited about it back in los angeles um joe thank you so much oh my god thank you for doing this with me I really appreciate it.

1:03:27Thanks to Kai and Kaya for producing today. Andy and I taking Memorial Day off. I'm sorry to Sydney Sweeney. I hope that whatever happens to you on Sunday night will hold until Thursday.

1:03:39Joanna Robinson:Rob and I are going live on Sunday night. See, this is why you're you. No, no, it's just like ill-advised, I think, to do a live reaction to euphoria. I'm going to the Pacific Northwest, man. You're living a better life. Your work-life balance is better than mine. I think we're about equally deranged. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening. and we'll be back next week. Take care.

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