‘The Bear’ Clocks Out. Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 2 and ‘Star City’ Episode 6.

23:34Andy Greenwald:I cannot for the life of me see where the story is coming from. And what I mean by that is like looking at the fuel reserves of what we have to tell, what's powering another season and a half, right? I think they said that it was going to be four seasons of story here. Partly because, giant-ass dragons aside, the relative randomness to the casual of when they can and can't do things. Like, everyone was so paralyzed for so many episodes of the show last season, and then they just flew in and took the throne, and now she's there. Once Eamon was lured out to go to Harrenhal, yeah. But that, the amount.

24:13Where he finds a new GF. But in order.

24:16Andy Greenwald:Oh, that's right. Do you think he's going to be okay? Eamon, fine. But he's got. He's got a little. But he has a new agent in Alice. He got stuck a little bit in the back there. I think he'll make it. I was glad to see a Targaryen actually get stabbed. Yeah. I can't believe I just said that. Well, you got me. Just what I think about. But I thought that was nice. I just mean that like. We began at the. We began. Remember when the battlefield on the show was the womb? We began with them as children just to get to a point where one of their children was distracted so they could go back. Like that is a lot of television made out of what feels like not a lot of real estate.

24:53Honestly, sometimes I think it feels and plays a little bit like the way it feels to read nonfiction. Where you're like, you're reading, like I was reading like the Rick Atkinson Invasion Trilogy. It was like Africa, Italy, and D-Day. and like I love them but there's 15 pages of and then the men packed the socks and then the men packed 80 ,000 cans of tuna and the men packed underwear and the men this is the part I'd like but that's a lot like you're and you're kind of like ah yes a storyteller might be like everything they needed they packed away right it's a history not what I mean and I think there is a dedication perhaps an over the in the beginning ironically enough since george r martin and ryan condell had this sort of schism there was in the beginning maybe an over deference to showing every step of the way totally in and and no more so nor never more so than when they did a four episode preamble of these girls as teens yep because well for whatever reason but they obviously didn't want to just be like here's grown up Allison and grown up Raniere and their last moment of peace and now they're going to split.

26:07Andy Greenwald:I think it's it look it is interesting from a perspective of someone who is a fan of the industry and a I mean we watch it like to see a show just no I'm serious like LinkedIn fan of the industry man. Well that's because I'm just glazing Mickey and Conrad again can't help it. I, no, but that like. Who are some of your favorite guys in the industry right now? Oh my God. Josh DeMauro. Josh DeMauro is killing it right now. What about, what about Gunner? You know, no one talks about Gunner anymore now that Paramount's buying Warner Brothers. But for a minute, Gunner was king. He was going to have his own little fiefdom of networks.

26:48Andy Greenwald:Then Ellison came over the top. I don't think we've heard the last of him. He's going to take Harrenhal. I think, I do find it interesting when shows, whether it's because of their actual quantitative success or the necessity of the project for the bottom line of the corporation or whatever, to keep going as it fixes itself and rewrites itself and redirects itself. And I think that you couldn't get anyone on the record to say this, but it would be fascinating at some point to read a postmortem of the show with Brian Condal or with George Martin or both of them, ideally, or with other people in the room talking about how the goals changed and what mistakes they feel were made to get to this point.

27:34Andy Greenwald:I don't mean to be like walking back or being overly negative about what I said last week, which was an episode like the Battle of the Gullet episode is in many ways, I think the best case scenario for what this show is. I'm not trying to wish it to be something else. But to bring it full circle to answer your question, I enjoyed the scene you're talking about because I think that Gail Rankin's slight playful smirk on her witchy face is the closest this dead-ass solemn show has come to any sense of humor. That and Larson Egon. Yes, that's right. I do enjoy that. So I enjoy Matt Smith and Gail Rankin sharing the screen.

28:10Andy Greenwald:No point was I like, aha, this is a door opening into what the show is going to be because I do not understand what the show is going to be unless I've signed up for a history of Westeros class. You may have. apparently I have you may have and I've been truant and you're not allowing it I thought Laris and Aegon were a kind of breath of fresh air even though obviously both deformed men one whose skin is still burning off apparently yeah so you think it smelled like my kitchen this morning a little bit they are also completely on the same page in how they are acting so that there is just like a much more of like naturalistic style going on between those two.

28:53Yeah. Most of this show is like, I have walked into a chamber and I am like, my queen, you know.

28:58Andy Greenwald:Which, by the way, is also the bear season five. I can't wait to talk about that. We can actually get to that. It's just people walking into rooms going, hey, can I ask you a question? What a golden age of people walking into rooms to talk to someone else in the room. Oh, because television's got so many other ideas than walking into rooms. No, we always come back to the classics. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. Anything else you wanted to hit from HOTD? before we move on? No, I just... Can you explain... Reyna's the one who ghost rode the dragon and now is like a screwed up? Yes, and she went to the Vale.

29:35She went back to the Vale where she was... She was basically on an extended babysitting gig with some of other Rhaenyra's kids and was just trying to get them out of harm's way. And because she hadn't claimed a dragon yet, But she was given this sort of belittling task. She goes out there. Yeah. It's the veil.

29:55Andy Greenwald:Yeah. She finds Sheepstealer, who's... And we've all agreed that's his name. Feral. Yeah. Trains him. Yeah. In so much as she claims him, but can't get him to do anything she wants. Half of what she wants. But then the other half is kind of like, well, whatever is down there is getting lit up. She does the thing. He does the thing that she wants. He just does it across the board. Yeah. And then she goes He both sides it She flies him back to the veil Right Says to Jane What's up Can I get some refuge here Jane's like nah Right And she's like well I have a dragon I'll protect the veil And she's like I just won't look for you Yeah You can be here You can have that hill That we're gonna pretend isn't there I hope so Is that what you were asking What if someone did that for us In like Somerset Like you don't I'm not gonna go over here Where this cottage is You could just hang out Do you want a rough sleep Out in a meadow somewhere I'm going to turn your Charlie Rose bit back on you for one second.

30:51Andy Greenwald:And Reyna, I know you from where? She's one of the kids. Whose kids? She's Bela's sister. Right. Oh, Bela. Yeah. And Bela is Corliss's granddaughter. I mean, it's all mixed up. You got to look at the family tree. You can do the work. You can get the map of Westeros out. You can get the family tree out. You know, if you want, you can Google your ass off. Chris. And find out what happens. Man, I'm 49 years old. Like, you know. Okay, Google. First of all, I still ask Jeeves. I'm going backwards. I'm not Googling. It's just I'm not doing their AI nonsense. It's not even a good search engine anymore.

31:30Andy Greenwald:You don't Google? No. What do you use? I use my brain computer. I just have a certainty about things. It's like what we used to do. We would just be like, do you remember how free it was to like be at a bar and to start talking about some cartoon we misremembered from the 80s? and being like, no, I'm pretty sure that was real. Yeah, but you know what the problem was that we were young. Our brains were fresh and often super powered. And we were like, I have complete recall for all of this shit. And all of space and time. Yeah. And now I'll be like, do you remember that thing you said yesterday?

32:06And then I will sundown and not be able to remember, A, what was said yesterday, but B, why I brought it up in the first place. Yeah.

32:13Andy Greenwald:It's true. We did have a beautiful moment last week, though. This is a positive spin on this, where I texted you something that I just remembered you had said on the pod and I thought was so charming. And you said, who's this? No, you knew it was me. I have no recollection of saying that. No memory. Yeah. This is what happens when you are on microphone five days a week. I just can't remember. Do you think that you— And honestly, that would be good. Like, I hope I do—like, I would love to be brought in front of Congress. And I can just say, honestly, I don't know. Yeah, but— I do not recall. But Kai and Kaya have an archive.

32:48Andy Greenwald:Like, you're going to get undone. Senator Cassidy's going to... That certainly looks like me. But I just don't remember saying. I'm just picturing like Sheldon Whitehouse and like Blumenthal being like, and so you characterize the events of January 6th as what? Are either of those guys still senators? They are, yeah. They are. Oh, I thought you meant like, I thought you were like dissing them. No. I was just, I couldn't remember if Sheldon was still rocking it. Yeah, Sheldon's, he's still, he's still, you know what else? The great state of Rhode Island. Yeah. Who are not participating in the fair of fairs in Washington, all the states.

33:20Andy Greenwald:Rhode Island is not? No. Anyone else not? The commie corridor is not participating, pretty much. That's sick. Yeah. So that's New England? Pretty much. And Pennsylvania. Has A.J. Brown weighed in on that? I'm just trying to, like, unite the streams here. You know? You know what I'm wondering, though? there is a remarkable archive of you now and your your takes and you know piece by piece your personal history even our shared history sure they're gonna simone your ass oh make me like make an ai bot there's gonna be i don't you think it might be a decent to good hang Just AI Chris? Am I wrong? Like, I feel like, has this whole thing?

34:07Do you think Anthropic could win back the federal government if they were like, the new agent is Chrissy? And he just, this guy loves Lioness. If it was just you laughing? If every time you're like, Chrissy, what's this rash? And it's just like, you know what? In Lioness season two, episode four, Joe, played by Zoe Saldana, asked the same thing.

34:28Andy Greenwald:First of all, listeners know that there was a period in 2004, 5, and 6 when you watched so many episodes of House MD. I would ask you medical advice. And you pretty much told me if it was or wasn't lupus. And you were 100 % right. It was never lupus. Have I just blown the lid off this thing? I'm sure. I'm sure. Like, I don't think we're the first people to be in danger of getting completely digitized and then obviated. Not me. This is all an act. This isn't even me. you guys don't even know my real name so you actually love House of the Dragon you don't know what I like that's why I constantly zag to defeat the machines this episode is brought to you by FanDuel Predicts you can predict the summer soccer showcase action all the way to the final match with FanDuel Predicts all you have to do is sign up to get your$25 bonus from the opening game to the final whistle stay locked in with every pass, every goal and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion Sign up now for your$25 bonus on FanDuel Predicts.

35:28Go to fanduel.com slash predicts to sign up. That's fanduel.com slash predicts to get your$25 bonus disclaimer. Offered by FanDuel Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 and over. Restrictions apply. See terms at fanduel.com slash predicts slash bonus dash offer dash terms. So we had initially talked about doing the bear in chunks, like doing three, three, two. We're not doing a show on Thursday. We've both finished the series. Yeah. Due to the nature of which they released the show, obviously a binge, but also, you know, the first seven episodes were made available to the press, and then the final episode went up on Friday.

36:11Thursday, right? Thursday night.

36:13Andy Greenwald:I mean, all the episodes went up concurrently, so the first time that— So that was when—and then I watched it on Friday. Right. And I think that as we sort of saw on our previous conversation about the first few episodes, where you, very Catholic of you, were like, you said we were going to do three. I did three. And then I was like, I watched all seven and I have a completely different opinion. Let's just finish it. That's what happens when AI hallucinates. She doesn't even listen to the prompt. I'm sorry. I just need your social security number before we finish this. That does sound challenging.

36:46Andy Greenwald:Have you ever considered murder? so let's talk about the rest of the season of the bear this is season 5 of the bear so spoilers for the entirety of it spoilers for all of the bear just fair warning it does seem anecdotally that especially with an 8 episode runtime this season which is the first 8 episode season I believe since the first it had done 10 for the past few seasons it does seem like people just binge the show it does I mean I can't speak for everyone but I don't know many people who savor it especially this season which was so it was not I do not, I will go to my grave, people at FX, even Christopher Storr could tell us like, no, no, no, it's episodic.

37:25Like I want people to like watch it and take it some time. No, not this year. This is a tasting menu of a season. You were supposed to sit there for the whole thing. That's what it's about one day. Well, then with a coda. And I think that it's meant to be enjoyed as much together as possible. so with that being said after watching the first three episodes and being like I'm as close as I ever have been to sending this back to the chef how do you feel about it after watching the complete after enjoying the complete meal

37:55Andy Greenwald:I thought that episode seven and eight were compelling and lovely and a nice coda to a series that now I feel confident saying should have ended two or three years ago I thought that the show kicked into action when the cooking actually started so that's episode 5 5 or 6 I believe so 5 is when they start they open but nobody has shown up right the moment that the season suddenly had a pulse to me was when Carmi cooks the lamb and pours a little tonado on top of it but it's Chekhov Tonato. It was Chekhov's Tonato. That tuna. I mean, and to that point, I appreciated the moment when it all suddenly seemingly goes wrong in Seven because breaking plates is a lot better than spinning plates, which is really what the show had been doing for upwards of 20 plus episodes.

39:00Andy Greenwald:Or did you just come up with it? Yes. Yeah, I wrote that one down. I wrote that one down. You were right. Did you see my eyes? No, but I was like, that's really good if you're just if you're just dealing no every so often in my notes app there's like a line where I was like put me back in coach cracks knuckles get that granuling column I can tell I can tell sometimes every so often no this I mean honestly this is one of those times only because the you wish you had like 2 ,000 words because the totality of it is deserving of it and the relationship to the show is complicated enough that I think no matter what we talk about now it's not really going to capture the full extent of it because I think I think there's very little way to express the nuance necessary to say that it is, I think it is impossible now, maybe in a few weeks or months with some hindsight that might change, but I think it is impossible now for me to think of this series as a success, separate and apart from the fact that the first two seasons are two of the best seasons of TV of the century.

39:59Andy Greenwald:Is that enough? Honestly, probably. And it was certainly enough to give me some pleasure at the end of this season. But the sheer amount of time spent with characters, as we were joking about before, I don't know if everyone listens to each segment, but with House of the Dragon, the majority of this season, up to the moment when it kicks into action, is people, one character walking into a room, saying, hey, can I ask you a question? And they talk about something that happened in the previous episode. There is no momentum from scene to scene. There is no build. There is no individual story other than Oliver Platt and fucking Brian Koppelman driving around Chicago yelling at people about air rights, a story that also goes nowhere just to kind of get out of the claustrophobia of the restaurant.

40:45Andy Greenwald:I thought it was extremely frustrating. And I think you could capture all of that. And I do want to talk about the positive things of those two episodes. I don't want to get too far off the path with that. But the arrested, paralyzed nature of the show is captured best in the absolute petrification of its main character from, I believe, midway through season three until he puts on a tie in episode 508. Jeremy Allen White is a bizarrely stoic Easter Island statue of himself standing in the background of this season of TV. Now, is that a story worth telling? Where Sidney takes over and everyone else steps up and he learns that he actually has a team behind him to catch him if he falls or trust falls?

41:30Andy Greenwald:That's a meaningful story. Did he have to be on the show to prove it? Did it have to take this long to get there? I genuinely don't know. And that's when we start to go into the place where I don't necessarily want to get into, which is who asked for this and what argument did they make to do it? Because it was such a struggle to get to a place that I think was deserving. Okay, so I'll try and hit some of your points and we can just make this into more of a back and forth rather than like an allow me to retort kind of thing. I'll say that beyond you called it compelling, I found Seven to be deeply moving, you know, like both because I think this is what I alluded to last Thursday.

42:12There's an authenticity, I think, to the characters and the performances, Whether or not they are always being put in a position of maximal entertainment value or interesting storytelling is completely up for debate. And your mileage may vary with that. But the behaviors and the emotional states of a lot of these people ring true to me. And some of their experiences ring very true to me. and to watch them get some kind of catharsis, but also, honestly, to watch them actually in action again. Doing what they do. For the first time in a long time, to see them kind of be together and moving around and helping one another and hurting one another and yelling at one another, but also improvising and finding solutions and fixes.

43:09I found it really really effective and honestly the Carmi stuff was like secondary to me I found myself just really really blown away by Eben Moss backrock this season

43:19Andy Greenwald:and the Richie character I think you can make an argument that this show is more about Richie and Sid than it is about Carmi in terms of journey in terms of transformation absolutely here's the magic trick Richie goes from a guy screaming about incels and you know um blade runner and can't control himself and is essentially like keeping the place alive dealing coke in the alley right to a six-week stage experience at ever where he is that how long he's there shorter shorter however long but not very long he's at ever and he comes out the other side with a completely different worldview and a completely does a different set of priorities.

44:04We can debate whether or not that's realistic.

44:06Andy Greenwald:It's realistic. It's the Chris Ryan story. Absolutely. Look at him. I mean, Bill Simmons finishing school. That's right. It only took 14 years. I always thought that his character this season expressed himself through action. Even if that action was doing the like shirt, table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. EMDR kind of therapy. Yeah, that kind of like, I heard this on a podcast. I think I'm supposed to do this kind of coping mechanisms. And his conclusion of going to Japan and getting to see the Ninja Museum and going with Jess, but also like even that moment with him and Carmi in the freezer where he's just like, I've never been on a plane.

44:48And that was like, that felt earned. I felt like I'd been on the road trip and we finally got to the Woodrow Wilson rest stop together. I, what was the other one?

45:03Andy Greenwald:Joyce? Joyce something. Yeah. But Joyce was a man, we found out. Oh. Did you know that? I did not know that. We're talking about New Jersey Turnpike. Sorry, I'm distracting. Evan Moss-Bacharak's performance absolutely is the beating heart of the show. The transformation of Richie is a beautiful thing to watch, and it's also something that I don't want to take for granted. One thing that happens when you have a show in your life with the consistency of the bear is that you begin to blur the lines between actor and character, and you just begin to assume that they show up and are just, you know, it's second nature to them.

45:38Andy Greenwald:You almost forget about the magic trick of acting. And watching not just where he started that character and where he ended that character and realizing that he was holding something consistently the whole time, and then you see an interview with him or you see a video clip of him talking to someone, and he's a distinctive-looking guy, and he looks different when he is not being Richie. I mean, he is completely subsumed into this character and understands him on a cellular level. And the wins of the show, I mean, to be clear, like I've never really had a problem with the pathos of the bear. Like it is a big, sloppy, bloody rare steak in terms of its emotions.

46:20Andy Greenwald:It's got an open heart. And him excelling and making things happen for people and the recurring mantra in Seven of I got you and how you kind of fake it till you make it when you speak to people you care about, that you keep repeating it and then they do have each other, that they do dig deeper and find something, was meaningful. I mean, and it was effective. And I really, really enjoyed that. I think I had trouble with how long it took to get to a place that was already, we were already on the precipice of it, if that makes sense. but I did think that there were some smart decisions looking at the show through his lens.

47:02Andy Greenwald:There were more places for him to go whereas I did feel other characters were kind of just playing the hits or whether that's the opportunity they were given on screen or the performer themselves, I'm not sure. One thing that I didn't love in the season, for example, was like Lionel Boyce, who plays Marcus, who I really like. Like, the journey of the character overall, which was becoming more and more morose and serious and dramatic, and then culminates in him basically having a personality transplant for six and seven. Now, I understand it's because his father's coming and he's feeling pressure, but I also just felt the heavy hand of, we need some friction to occur in this just absolute love fest that is the bear.

47:43I think between him and Luca specifically, but I think it was also like, you can't, there's no jeopardy if all these people are essentially like deep down geniuses who all get along but also like you know marcus's whole problem uh in the kitchen has been how deliberate he is like they've always wanted him to go faster they've always wanted and what this last service or the last service of the bear shows is like this is the the maximum amount of nothing goes right but when nothing goes right like the creativity is actually sparked so that's where you know carmy thinks because he's dropped this lamb the last lamb that the entire night is ruined.

48:22But it's actually like unlocks him once they get his back to create brioche out of nothing.

48:29Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And finish off Marcus's last dish so that the Michelin star guy who's just a guy can have like the dessert of a lifetime. And everybody gets to basically be the best versions of themselves during that dinner. It's like the idea of having a cigarette and beer soaked outdoor party patio next to a Michelin starred tasting menu. Would that work? Is there a place like that? I don't know, but that sounds pretty cool. And if there is, it would be in Chicago. And it allows the facts to be the facts. You know what I mean? Instead of asking us to be like, all these guys turned into like maitre d's from heaven.

49:11Like they are like, no, I'm the guy who like, when everything's kind of going wrong, I'm like, dude, let's go out and smoke a cigarette. you know like that's kind of fun um and I thought that the reason why the season worked for me even if it felt repetitive to you like where you're like it's just people walking into rooms and asking each other how they're doing or like what did they think of what just happened five minutes ago first of all that's basically what offices are like like they are very repetitive of like just going like hey like did you see that thing and what are you going to do about this thing maybe that's not great television but it did it wasn't crazy to me that it was happening but where the third and fourth season especially the third if i'm remembering correctly had a lot of like really intense close-ups isolation can't really tell if this person is in the same room not on the in the morning show level but like it's about like almost trying to get interiority by boring into people with the camera this season got into interiority by putting people on a stage base together.

50:13I mean, the restaurant is shot completely differently. It looks like a soundstage to me. And I thought that they got where people were at in their lives by doing rather than saying for me.

50:28Andy Greenwald:To your point about Michelin star dining, I think that one of the interesting moments of tension in Seven was the images of people going into the dining room and then we see their perspective and we see people enjoying themselves and celebrating. And then that's countered with or juxtaposed with Richie being like, get the fuck up, get the fuck up, which is a feeling that actually doesn't really engender a nice experience in a restaurant when you are being rushed out. And the idea that like 10 minutes per course, 90 minutes, I don't know if people would walk away being like, that was really a special celebration.

51:01Andy Greenwald:But that tension was interesting even to allude to. They might have, they were like, and now do you want to go outside and smoke a blunt? Just blow rails with some hams. I thought, look, to use, the show itself is so drenched in food culture that I think it actually is appropriate to use metaphors in this case. And I don't know if you've read or anyone listening has read some of the recent reviews of The French Laundry. Now, The French Laundry is an ur-text of this show. Did you say the God TK? The God TK. Thomas Keller, who helped Carmi trust a chicken. and a flashback that was reused liberally in this season as well.

51:41Andy Greenwald:The thing about the French Laundry when it opened was that it was so quietly confident and revolutionary, and every dish felt like it came from the mind of a genius, and it was an incredibly special experience because you traveled for it. You know, you were up in the Napa Valley, and part of the mid-course meal, you walk through the garden or you go to the kitchen. And a lot of what people in America think of as the finest of fine dining or destination dining comes from that. He then became, Thomas Keller became a celebrity. and people would, you know, spend enormous amount of money to eat there.

52:10Andy Greenwald:And then he kind of franchised the bakery thing and he opened Per Se in New York, which tried to give you the French Laundry experience at a mall in Columbus Circle. And recently, both Per Se and the French Laundry have been re-reviewed by New York Times critics and by San Francisco Chronicle critics. And they've been pretty rough, basically being like the salmon Cornetto is a brilliant idea, but it's also like someone showing up at, you know, frees London. And I'm like, I've painted a Titian. Like, someone already did that. Like, this is part of our culture now and we're responding to it. And there's a freshness issue here.

52:47Andy Greenwald:So I think you were right to point out that when the show's magic was when people, these beautiful actors and these beautiful characters and the sensitive emotional camera was digging something out of the raw ingredients that we were given on the screen. And then the show kept going back. hoping to get a similar flavor pop from those same scenes. And it was diminishing returns. I would point out the scene, Robert Townsend, who's given one of the best performances in the history of the bear, in his like four or five appearances as Sidney's father. The scene where he, where the two of them are at the diner in the finale, is a beautiful scene.

53:27Andy Greenwald:It's completely successful. And it's pure bear, because it is so naturalistic and so emotional and clever and lovely and lived in. and you're like, was there a script? Or are they just having a good time? And you could feel it work, and it still works sometimes. And then there's a scene where, like, Marcus and Carmi are talking, and Marcus is just, in order to explain himself, is basically saying what I only imagine is Chris Storr or one of his writers' experience turning on the Criterion channel, watch it live the night before. Like, Marcus is suddenly trying to explain himself through the prism of some dark foreign movie he saw the night before.

54:03Andy Greenwald:And I'm like, this feels phony to me. This feels staged and artificial and is trying to mine something out of very little. Everything you're saying, I appreciate and speaks to the love that I have had for the show. But I feel frustrated. Yeah, maybe I'm just a little bit sappier or maybe, you know, like Sid saying fire Brussels to Tina really like. That got you? Yeah, man. i think that like there are different examples in pop culture of things that will hit you and i know for instance that like you're very like susceptible to examples of fathers and daughters for instance we don't know why yeah um i just mentioned robert townsend and iot debris scene um let's talk about the conclusion of the show a little bit okay uh one major thing from the conclusion of the show Yeah.

55:00Andy Greenwald:I really respect Sydney packs internationally the way I pack. Yeah. We have the same opinions about one of every over-the-counter drug. Easily reachable. Yeah. Just for confidence. And more than that, half of Xanax is really all you need. She's right. You know? Okay. I thought that was a really good point for travel. I thought that was good too. I felt bad for, that's a long flight for Richie to be in coach at the window. He's in coach, but he's at the window and he's got a lovely companion by his side. He's got Jess in middle. Although I couldn't tell if it was a three-seater or a two-seater.

55:31Andy Greenwald:Run the tape. Let's go back. You guys did Economy Plus? Or what did we do? Comfort Plus? I mean, I think Pellegrino could. Here's the way I saw it. I bet Pellegrino could have flown him Comfort Plus, and there is a direct flight Chicago to Tokyo. But did they also invite Jess? Did he get Comfort? And then he said, you know what? Instead, give me two Economy seats. Right. And in fact, one full bar of Zanex to split. We're totally down to work with you on however you want to do this. Whatever you need. The conclusion is that Carmi follows through with his decision to leave the bear. Right. Sid and Richie and the gang are going to continue to do the restaurant.

56:10Ibra's idea to franchise the beef has come through. There is a very lovely moment where he calls the character that was played by Rob Reiner and says, as you wish. I'm glad you caught that too. Call back to Princess Bride. That was a beautiful moment. There's lots of little Easter eggs in there. the go fast mojito boats or go fast boats mojitos is the wifi password.

56:31Andy Greenwald:There was also some cute little nods like when Dee Dee asks if no it's not Dee Dee who asks if if Sid and Carmi are in a relationship? Somebody asked Pete that and he's like there are theories. There are theories out there. I mean there was a little self-awareness. And I think even their hug at the end was like is this fucking happening? And I was just like no these guys just like That's good. so the bear the conclusion of the bear as a restaurant I think that there is like a real obvious feel good aspect to that I want to talk to you about Carmi's fate wait I have one other question about the the restaurant the moment when we find out the fact that it wasn't Starman wasn't Starman that it was the guy that we all thought it was from God knows season 3 season 4 I don't remember the snow night I believe it's 4 Middle of season four.

57:26Andy Greenwald:I thought that was well done. I like that. I think that really tracked with the heart of the show that, you know, that there's something beautiful about restaurants, but something that is also very temporary and fleeting and you can't create magic. You can just move on to the next night and try it again. And so this beautiful night was not the one that will be memorialized in the review. But did you feel there was any kind of, I'll say the word, cowardice in the, no, you didn't get a star. You got two. Did you feel like that was? Yeah, because it's just like everybody, it's look under your seat.

58:04Andy Greenwald:Everybody gets car keys. Did you feel any of that? Or were you just in your bag about the Brussels sprouts still and you were feeling it? Like, what do you want to have happen to these people? I mean, I kind of wanted them to be like, no star, but it's like a promising review and now you can go build this into the next one. I think that... I'm being intentionally provocative. You probably need to have some sort of validation in that they've made the star the thing that's going to keep this place open. Right. Right, like their price point is probably too high. Yep. I thought that by the end of it, culinarily, like they arrived at a place that was like the middle ground between the beef and carmy's kind of like overworked stuff it's true so doing coke ribs and um that's the french montana tape that i was telling you about doing uh like cindy's mother's ribs um tina's brussels sprouts you know the banana foster banana sun the sundae that marcus is making like the things that these guys are all making are to to grab a phrase from the top chef judges they're cooking their food they're telling their story you know they're putting their heart on a plate they are and so i did not mind that okay the end of a series had a happy ending you you like i don't know what you want i want yeah i wanted the range did you want carmy to be like we got two stars but uh i'm staying now and i'm still the boss no let's this is what you wanted to ask about so i mean this has been probably among among people talking about the bear is like Ending it on seven and halfway through eight is an enormously satisfying thing.

59:43The birthday cake for Richie's daughter, the whole cast gathering, Hartnett fucking zooming in.

59:49Andy Greenwald:Bob Odenkirk showing up. Odenkirk. I thought that that was really nice. Claire Bear. Yeah. And I really liked that they did not make Claire the like, I gotta go see about a girl. I know it was referenced of like, did you call her yet? And he was like, I'll call her tomorrow. For as much as I am... ragging on the show for its fast sprint towards emotion at all times. I thought the restraint shown in the end was very, very lovely. I really thought that that was a nice gesture. And I'm glad Carmi didn't wake up the next day and turn into fucking comic relief Robin Williams. Like, I'm glad that he's still haunted and still not a great hang and has his issues, you know?

1:00:35Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I thought that... Maybe almost to a point of like its detriment where it was like, I kind of wanted a personality transplant for this character by the end. And he's going into what is ostensibly a job interview at the end and talking about like his trauma. I want to talk about that. And I also want to discuss, I mean, we're not people to say it, but who is the bigger Chicago legend, weatherman Tom Skilling or Bonnie Hunt? TBD, we can't decide that. Mulaney's coming from that crown, man. He's playing Wrigley. That's true. That is true. I don't want to leave like the cooks. I don't want to leave a bad taste in people's mouth here.

1:01:09Andy Greenwald:Like at its best, this show was such a brilliant and beautiful exploration of therapy, but with drama and with professionalism and work and the realities of living in a city and being alive right now, that I thought that the place where it ended, which was a really deep sense of the things that matter go on, whether it's Marcus saying goodbye to Luca and you understand that people sometimes move in different directions, but they have a bond and they will be happy to see each other again, whether it's Claire and the store players minus Brie Larson just showing up for a day and the celebration being— What was her name?

1:01:50Is that Fanny? Francine.

1:01:52Andy Greenwald:Francine. And that it being a celebration for Richie's daughter that brings everyone out because ultimately getting together for family and lifting each other up is something— Yeah, if you find a physical space to make everybody feel special. It's like that's the goal of the restaurant. Yeah. Not all restaurants. No, but of life. And you get the sense that the restaurant itself could go away. You get a sense that people could come and go and leave and Carmi could leave. But they have built something that is lasting if it is tended to. And I think that was a beautiful summation of what the show always was.

1:02:21Andy Greenwald:And as someone who briefly had a podcast about TV shows ending, like that needs to be celebrated. Don't sell yourself short, man. If architecture school doesn't work out, you can always come back to podcasting. So all of that was wonderful. Did you specifically car me leaving or not leaving? I think there was some confusion of the fact that he is interviewing for an internship and monologuing about his feelings. And then it is intercut with the birthday party and scenes with him back at the restaurant. So is the implication that he is back because this is still a family business and his friends are there.

1:02:58Andy Greenwald:But he himself is no longer chopping onions. I did not think that he was like, that interview went poorly. I'm back at the restaurant. Did you think as management that the interview went well? I don't think that, I don't think Mulaney set him up to succeed. That the Mulaney character being like, just share your shit. That's what's hot right now. I was like, I didn't, I don't know if that's the case. Yeah. In 2026, I don't know if that's the best way to get a fast track internship. But I thought that the idea of this guy who wants to express himself through art or he wants to find a new ally for his creative spirit.

1:03:37I don't know anything about architecture or what kind of apprenticeship you have to go through or if Carmen's been to college. I didn't.

1:03:43Andy Greenwald:I don't think he did. He's had quite an education. I don't know what you can do if you've not been to... Well, what do they say to him? What does Sidney say? What skills do you have? And he says none. Yeah. Not true. He is a pretty good cook. Yeah. I mean, I think he can always like... like cook sling burgers you know like do you think that in the year 2026 franchising a sandwich shop for ghost kitchens is a mind-blowing idea when they were like holy shit oh my god did you think that was so uh you didn't i thought that the two i thought that the cheese computer uh uncle jimmy was a necessary like get out of the get out of the restaurant do some we got to have something else aside from like only shots at the restaurant i i thought that the scene where they go to get to get the air rights from that lady and like there's a ray is somewhere they're like fuck you ray that was kind of funny but like also like ultimately it was like can you imagine they got to the end of this show and they were like that's a bad idea to ibra yeah and they were like and You got no stars.

1:04:51Andy Greenwald:And the restaurant's closed. I guess we wanted different things. Birthdays are canceled. No, no, no. The last thing I'll say, and then I want to make a bigger point about it, is I hated the music. I think that was the other thing that took me out. I hated the Tron-ass music. I think I needed to relax. I thought they overdid the needle drops in three and four. and I thought I am in general pretty deaf to like cool needle drop it has nothing to do with what's happening you know like you're gonna love supergirl from what I understand but my point like I just think that they've got we've gotten away from like building out emotional textures of stories with original music because people are like so drunk on like and did you see the playlist that I made you know it's like um the bears the official bear playlist on on spotify is awesome I listen to it all the time.

1:05:44It's a great collection of music. I thought they relied too heavily on 3 and 4, and I thought getting out of the way and having a, albeit reminiscent of Social Network or Manhunter or Thief or whatever, was cool. It got out of the way of the characters and let them do the storytelling.

1:06:05Andy Greenwald:I think that overall, this is one of the most significant shows of our professional covering TV existence. I think that at its peak, it was the most electric experience you could hope for. It was fresh. It was bold. It was thrilling. It was so ambitious. And also, I think in terms of just the uniqueness, I was dinging it for this last week, but I do think that the spirit of the show, I mean, shows always take on the characteristics and the character of the people in charge. of the shows. That is something that you can honestly say after working behind the scenes of some things for good or for ill.

1:06:48Andy Greenwald:And the spirit of the show being one of found family and inclusiveness being celebrated by Chris and his colleagues, including like his real life partner, Gillian Jacobs, who's on the show and good friends and people who've become close friends is a beautiful thing, especially in this fallen, soon to be AI apocalypse that we all live in. But I do think that in many ways, the legacy of the show is the other side of the praise that we'd given it for a long time, which is when it premiered and we were like, wow, this came out of nowhere, has been in our life consistent, will be consistent in our life every year, hit its deadlines, show up, make stars out of actors, not the other way around.

1:07:27and kind of go on too long and frustrate.

1:07:33Andy Greenwald:That's a legacy. That's a classic television legacy that one can be proud of, honestly, and one that we don't get enough of. We don't get a lot of these days. When things arrive now, everything is so bespoke and crafted and labored over and then years in between that we rarely just have this specific experience where you get something, it is wonderful and then there's some bumps on the way yeah but it stays true to itself pretty rare i mean like we it was more common probably when we started doing this podcast you know where we were like damn homeland season five that was the showtime model of like wow uh but i this is one where i don't really have an intellectual argument against you i'm just like meant a lot to me made me feel things yeah uh i don't think that the last couple of seasons were on the level of the first two seasons but i thought in some there were large stretches of three where i thought the filmmaking was breathtaking i thought the filmmaking generally and across the board was top of its class yeah um and that the conclusion of it really was like very cathartic for me in a way that i did not expect for it to happen so it is 47 episodes they made which is shocking since 2022.

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1:10:52Do you want to talk briefly about Star City before we get out of here? Yeah, if you have the time. I just want to say one thing that's sort of an odd thing to lead with with this show. And I hate to say it. Okay. Because I want to bring Hollywood back, whoever the mayor is. Doesn't matter. And whoever in this room supports whichever mayoral candidate. We don't know.

1:11:10Andy Greenwald:We don't know. we don't know who still might be writing in some of the people who we thought were falling off the ballot where'd they shoot this? Vilnius, Lithuania got some really good extras in Lithuania do you ever lose the narrative thread thinking about how every extra on screen most of them don't understand what's being said in the scene because they don't speak English Irina Irina is following the American agent to the buses yeah a lot of faces and they're walking all through what's supposed to be Moscow a little bit confused about how far Star City is from Moscow because it seems like people are making multiple trips per day.

1:11:43Andy Greenwald:It's kind of like where I live to the Sycamore Studios, you know? I complain about it, but I can get there. Yeah, but you don't have to get cleared at security in multiple places. Honestly, LAFD is stopping me. When she's following the American agent through Moscow and then through the bus station and onto the bus and different buses, there's a vibrancy and a life to that that I was like, did we forget how to make shit like this? Like I understand that those people may have gotten paid like two rubles and I don't want to. Yes. Not the currency of Lithuania, but I think I take your point. For now.

1:12:22Not funny. Not funny. I just think that that's the kind of thing where I would be like, that's a pretty normal people shadowing one another in spy stories. Like we see that all the time. Popped off the screen, as did obviously the last 15 minutes, which were extraordinary.

1:12:40Andy Greenwald:To your point. Spoilers for episode five? Six? Five, six? Six. Yeah. To your point, what we appreciate in filmmaking, wherever it is shot, is anything that takes advantage of, maximizes, celebrates where it's being shot. Location shooting is a crucial part of compelling filmmaking. That's like 101. It's a super basic comment. But we don't have as much of it as we would like because it is incredibly expensive. You know, when you are making a TV production, one of the first things they say are, what are your standing sets? What can we reuse? What can we amortize from season to season should the show get renewed?

1:13:20Andy Greenwald:And then maybe if you've made sure you're going to use these sets for your five or six days, maybe you get two days on location. And so you're limited from the beginning. And then you're even more limited if budgetarily you are in a more expensive place where you have, you know, the ruble doesn't go as far as it does. There are unions, labor. Which are good. Union's traditionally very big in that part of the world, though. Very good point. Should we delve into that? How many cans of tuna did you pack for that conversation? I don't think it is a blow against Minister Jon Voight's campaign to bring filming back to Los Angeles to say that it looks really good.

1:13:56Yeah, I would rather just not be shot in North Hollywood. It looks really good where it is.

1:14:01Andy Greenwald:So that is incredible. And I think that the texture adds so much in every scene and not just on location, but the production design, because there are moments even I am not I am loving this show. But like there sometimes when like Roscova and chief designer are having the same argument, I'm like, oh, that's a different color taupe in the background. It's electrifying. And if I pause and rewatch it and they're just saying the same things, maybe it wouldn't be as rich of an experience. The other thing that I hit my head against on this episode that I think is worth a longer conversation and maybe with the creators.

1:14:36Andy Greenwald:Yes. When Anna Maxwell Martin in this episode does her thing. This is what I, yeah. I think we want to say the same thing. At one point she goes, sort it out. Very good. And I'm like, that's a British lady. Did you just figure that out? No, but it felt culturally British. Right. Right. And I wonder whether or not there are people out there who feel like there's something lacking from a quintessentially Russian soul here. There is something almost like we are writing in the idiom or in the voice of a certain kind of British... First of all, I think you're getting confused because that is also what I shouted at the sports bar on Saturday when England couldn't put it in the back of the net against Panama in the first half.

1:15:29Andy Greenwald:That's right. So maybe that's partly confusing. I think that I look forward to, if we do get the chance to talk to those guys who made the show, there is both an appreciation for the detail of the Soviet bloc, but also there is a very convenient monster. I mean, Chief Designer calls her a monster in the sense that, like, I am no scholar of the Soviet space program. But the degree to which this one woman is empowered to end the lives and the billion ruble investment in a mission to Venus because of what it may mean for the security apparatus in her career is wild. It is excellent for the story because every episode pushes everything into the center of the table in a way that I admire.

1:16:14Every decision that gets made by a character on this show immediately winds up affecting the next decision somebody makes. Immediately. Chief designer being like, this is a secret mission, so it's not going to be on TV and nobody's going to know we did it. And her being like, hence why I can fucking kill these people. Yes. And we can just be like, they died in a training accident in Siberia. Like, there is consequences to every action, and that's why it's such compelling television, and I don't mind that it's an hour and five minutes. Like, I'm like, oh my God. And now, like, he told Anastasia.

1:16:44She knows. It's like everything kind of is building towards this tension that I think is masterfully woven together. I don't remember For All Mankind feeling like this, but maybe I'm wrong.

1:16:54Andy Greenwald:And I do wonder where the specter of the For All Mankind storytelling will kick in. One of the things that might be giving us all this pleasure in terms of like, wow, I can't believe how fast they're moving, how they're running right at every problem, might be because Star City Season 2, which I think is not an impossibility, will pick up in the late 70s. Possibly. Like this might be our, it may do time jumps in the same way, which we may have mixed feelings about because they have found so much fertile soil here. Or is the fact that we're responding to it to this degree because they are not letting the grass grow beneath their feet, as they say.

1:17:27Andy Greenwald:Sure. Possibly in Russia. I really couldn't tell you. But I, the end was, the end of this episode is nuts. I mean, it is, it is, I don't know if anyone listening this deep into the podcast, even into this deep into this segment, are still on the fence about Star City, but if I were to tell you that the sixth episode of the first season of a show ends with a KGB security official demanding the pressure be cut on a manned space mission to Venus, that is so metal. Honestly, I didn't even know you could do that from the ground. Here's my real question. Is there really no tape delay? I don't know. Do you know what I mean?

1:18:06Andy Greenwald:They got some strong radios. I want to be clear about something, and I'm sorry to make this personal for a moment, but, you know, thanks to our good friend and colleague Sarah here, we were able to live stream on a private YouTube link my daughter's bat mitzvah to my parents back in Philadelphia. This is 2026. This is the YouTube Google Corporation. They have better technology. And that took, there was a two and a half minute delay. Yeah. Because my daughter was swearing a lot. Well, maybe like the idea is that the Kremlin is invested in the space program. I got to wrap it up there. So you don't, okay.

1:18:34Andy Greenwald:Because I do think it would be a much longer watch if they were like, open the hatch. No. And then a day and a half fast. I'm happy that they have like crystal clear, like Nextel chirp with these guys. Thanks to Kai and Kai. We'll be back next Monday. Everybody enjoy your fourth. There will be an Andy Greenwald will publicize. You might as well. You've given me some songs. I'm adding my songs. We make our annual playlist. I don't tend to publicize things that take place on other people's Spotify profiles. That's like I have my own. No, I'm just kidding. Of course I'm going to do that. We have our annual barbecue playlist, which I only found out last year was to be played at a barbecue.

1:19:09So I just thought it was cool songs, but apparently it's not, you don't, nobody wants to listen to post-hardcore while grilling.

1:19:17Andy Greenwald:You do. This can be, this is like a window into your experience. But I sent you some, some real cool dad rock. I will say there has never been. An Ice Age. Yeah, what? It will be so clear who contributed which songs. And I think people will have a good time with that. We'll send that out on our various social feeds, including the watchpod underscore Instagram. Everybody have a great weekend. We did it, America. We did it.

1:20:09There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18+.