‘The Bear’ Season 4, Episodes 8-10 and the ‘Ironheart’ Finale

26:23Andy Greenwald:And as someone who likes comic book insanity, the idea of like magic and tech working in the same world, like that's kind of what makes Marvel and comics in general fun. all of that said the fact that she's up against a established canonical villain in the hood played by Anthony Ramos from Hamilton and In the Heights and Twisters whose power is derived from some kind of supernatural stuff as we're getting to and then like the show actually being about her choosing to ally herself with the devil because she's been overlooked and disrespected and wants her deceased friend back to life yes it was pretty wild yeah and that's how it ends is like her getting uh becoming like possessed by the devil can i i know i think there's a cut scene but yeah i'm reading the quotes a lot today but this was i think this is one of the all-time quotes of like when someone maybe maybe joanna will write like the actual like we have the footage tapes of what went on during this era of like of ip storytelling this is one of the greatest quotes of all time this is not usually when we bring up marvel peoples we're like well that's why we made the parallax view you know no this is my new favorite quote entertainment weekly asked chanaka hodge who has spent five years of her adult life shepherding this six-episode series to the screens, about the decision to end the show with Riri Williams selling her soul to the physical manifestation of the devil was a longstanding choice she had made when she came on the project.

27:49Andy Greenwald:That's a really great question, Hodge says. I wish I could answer it more plainly. It was not my decision alone. I was empowered by Marvel to make that decision. I don't know what will happen next, but as a fan, I'm really hoping to see him make a lot of appearances. Now, this has the same tenor as George Cheeks turning to the Paramount shareholders and being like, I was empowered by Sherry Redstone to pay a bribe to the president of the United States so David Ellison can buy our company. I didn't make this decision alone, but I'm excited to see what the president does next. I'm going to start empowering you to do more things.

28:26Yeah, I appreciate that.

28:27Andy Greenwald:That is a wild quote that tells us everything. Sure. And I also got the feeling like Mephisto, Sacha Baron Cohen does Sacha Baron Cohen. It's almost a perfect role for him because he gets to do seven accents in one scene. Yeah. If I had to guess. Please, yeah. That feels like an expiring contract move. That feels like we had this, it didn't get into Agatha. It wasn't in WandaVision. It's not going to be in the Doom Chronicles. It's like Dame on the Bucks. They stretched him. They stretched him and they waved him. Yeah. Again, we don't spend too much time on the deal-making side of Hollywood, but I would love to know that entire wooing signing process, like what he was told.

29:15Andy Greenwald:Because this thing of where he's just thrilled to finally be joining the Marvel Cinematic Universe in hour six of a two-night dump of a show we've forgotten about. Crazy. Yeah. Crazy. but maybe we're just bearing the lead here. He's really good and it's kind of fun. Yeah. It's campy and it's not bad. It's lively in a very strange way. The only thing that's truly devilish is the pizza that he serves Anthony Ramos which I was like that's the tell. That looks so bad. I thought it was like kind of like John's New York style like kind of over like overheated. No. I mean that's like melting. It's in Chicago.

29:54Andy Greenwald:That looks like DiGiorno. You know what I mean? If you're in Chicago, have him serve the devil's pizza, a.k.a. deep dish. You know what I mean? Like, really, be like, mmm, this soupy casserole is delicious. Come on in, Ironheart. It's fork and knife time. Exactly. That would have been fine. Well, this was an unexpectedly in-depth discussion about a show that we only sort of watched. But I'm glad that some bets pay off in this country. Are you happy about this? I mean, this month, well, basically, yeah, this month alone, you get Mephisto and you get Mr. Fantastic. It's true. I'm done. Your long position on the MCU is finally bearing fruit.

30:32Andy Greenwald:It hit. I'm thrilled for you. There was one other piece of news from this week that goes into the rest of our conversation, which is that the bear was renewed. Now, this is something, you know, no wind horse, but Andy and I had heard that this was a possibility. members of that this was likely members of the extended bear family were being very loose about future plans for this show in public settings I'll leave it at that not that you were present for I was not second hand you heard about this but I got a lot of texts from people who were what does Windhorse do? they were just like why is that?

31:07Andy Greenwald:yeah so why is that? that seemed like it was in the cards hey Chicago class it up with Crocs you know back to school is coming in fast So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling smart move another smart move getting help from one of state farm's 19 000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling just another way to save with the personal price plan prices are based on rating plans that vary by state coverage options are selected by the customer availability amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month each lasting four hours or more.

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33:01Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. Propel fitness water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins, Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. Okay, so the bear has been renewed. This is a good way to start talking about the bear. Now, in our last two conversations, Andy and I sort of went episode by episode. But what I thought we could do, if you would like, is to kind of start at the end. since the news and the last episode of the bear this season are conjoined right um very much so despite whatever misgivings i think you know or or ups and downs we've had with this season i found myself uh pretty charged up by the end in terms of what could happen next and excited that there is going to be a fifth season i guess let's what's the best way to talk about this well i think we start at the end okay i do i mean so at the end of the at the end of the 10th episode of the fourth

34:07Andy Greenwald:season of the bear well the entire episode is one this is a bottle episode guys it doesn't change locations yeah and it's it's essentially a one-act play with three characters a fourth at the end um and a fourth at the end who come to the realization that carmy has adjusted the partnership agreement for the bear restaurant that uncle jimmy gets 50 which has always been because he put the money in and that the rest of the 50 % was the bear. And it was always under the assumption that the bear was going to be Carmi, Natalie, and to some extent, Sid. Yeah. It turns out that he has gone to Natalie's husband, Pete, who is very, very, very clear that he honors attorney-client privilege.

34:49So he did not tell his wife about this.

34:51Andy Greenwald:Nope. Pete adjusted the partnership agreement and Carmi has been diluted out. Like, you know. To zero. Yes. he is no longer a partner in the bear and Sid when she finds out about this at the end of 9 and into 10 when she begins talking about Carmi immediately sees it for what it is which is you're quitting now I think we get to a place where the gesture Carmi's gesture is can be read as more benevolent than that but he does not run away from the fact that he is trying to get out of being a chef at a restaurant and he says that he thinks he is going to be he's done with restaurants I thought that the last two episodes of this season were generally extraordinary part of it is to is because I think it pays off some lingering debts that the show had thematically, narratively, emotionally and it puts the show in a place that I think is pretty exciting for a show in its fifth season and the thing I kept thinking about because these are two shows that we've been talking about a lot over the last five years of this podcast, is this is the inflection point where Jesse Armstrong said, I'm done telling the story of Succession.

36:08And the people behind the bear have decided they still have more story to tell. But they are at similar moments where the major character of the show, a major character of the show, in the case of Succession, we know who that is. And in the case of the bear, or Carmi are at least stepping back, if not exiting. So give me some thoughts about the end and the where it goes.

36:31Andy Greenwald:I'll start at the very end. I love the finale. I thought it was, I'll use your word, I thought it was extraordinary. I thought it was the bear at its best in that Christor has empowered these actors to be their fullest, most present, most emotionally intense selves. and he has given us characters that are worthy of the performers and put them all into the position to say every single thing that had not been said for the previous three seasons, 3.9 seasons. That glorious release was, it's hard to discuss without the larger context of Jesus fucking Christ. that took way too long for characters to say things to each other that were unspoken.

37:26Andy Greenwald:The episode itself and the confrontation itself was spectacular. It was so violently overdue that it actually took me longer than I expected in the face of such a strong episode to relax into it.

37:44Andy Greenwald:I'm just going to assume now that this is gospel because of how we saw these seasons play out. This episode, these conversations, this screaming match turning into hugging, which is what Bear is, absolutely is where the show was always intending to go and to end. The story that the series embarked on was always pointing to this moment, and there aren't a lot of shows that do that, and if I may, stick that landing. This should have happened a year ago. I think there's just no possible way to say otherwise because if you just look at the totality of these two seasons um i mean there's a couple different ways to talk about it there's i can't think of a single great television show that has ever done less with more in terms of how much 20 episodes of television to tell what was a relatively modest story there were digressions that were worth it like I think the Sid episode in 404.

38:46Andy Greenwald:And there were episodes that weren't worth it, like 408, which takes all of the goodwill and momentum built up in Bears at the wedding and just slams it into a brick wall with a dream sequence, among other things. It's just like, what are we doing here? I think that was wild. But the emotions expressed in this episode and like what what these people said to each other and what they were to each other was worth it i mean i i wrote down like it's it's actually pretty wild how good carmy is at talking once he starts having never ever well i think that he gets emotionally and maybe verbally unblocked after after his lunch with his mother yeah i again i think that there is a i think he sees that if can make a step towards making amends and like repair then like why can't i i think that there There is a, I'll say this and then I'll leave it alone because I want to talk about the merits and the substance of this episode.

39:47Andy Greenwald:But like, there's just such a clear case to be made, I think, that that journey would have been so much sharper and clearer if it had been told with more economy. This might be the most me example I could ever give you, but you know that there's a Fleetwood Mac reunion album from 2002 called Say You Will that is generally not beloved. it the reason it's generally not beloved is because it is i think 18 tracks and has things like stevie nix's witchy thoughts about 9-11 in one song and lindsey buckingham's song uh murrow turning over in his just out of curiosity does she have any uh outside of the mainstream theories about that there's a beautiful lyric about alice in wonderland and how jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams but my my reason for bringing this up is that i believe and i have done this and I'll put it next to our barbecue playlist that there is a masterpiece in that album.

40:38Andy Greenwald:If you take six songs out, everything is brought into focus. It's a phenomenal record. You could do that and maybe someone will do that with these two seasons of The Bear and it's all there. Everything that I love about the show is there on the page but the experience of like dipping and weaving was frustrating at times. But where it ended up is really kind of profound and exciting and as I was watching it, I was thinking this show really, really is the difficult man series for the therapy age. Because we've had a whole generation of shows, right? Where, like, use Mad Men as the example, where we see Don Draper's excesses and we see his flaws.

41:21Andy Greenwald:But we also see him be so brilliant that we understand why everyone around him goes along with it. I would argue that we never actually see Carmi be brilliant. we see him be a dickhead we see him i think carmy i i mean i think some of it is tell versus show so yes sydney emphasizing that carmy's food is the best that she tasted in new york that he is one of the world's best that he's better than luca and that he's chef terry's sort of star protege that he's worked for balut and keller and and but what we see is really the cost of it on himself on the wreckage of the family that he returns to on the way he treats people and honestly as he verbalizes really well in this episode, how he responds to opportunity and success and self-sabotage.

42:07So it's kind of,

42:09Andy Greenwald:I kept thinking about Mad Men in the sense that, and I'm sorry, I'm going to spoil the end of Mad Men, so hit the 10 second advance if you haven't really engaged with one of the greatest shows of all time yet. But it ends with him stripped down to basically nothing, the bone, at a hippie retreat on the edge of America, finally potentially at peace and in the lotus position. And in that moment of release, he dreams up the most successful commercial of all time. Yeah, I mean, in this version, it would be like if Carmi was like walked out of that back lot of the bear and then like opened a restaurant down the street called Mikey's.

42:43Literally that. Yeah.

42:45Andy Greenwald:The fact that the show is all about the reckoning of the self as separate from achievement makes it extremely, I think, relevant, relatable, interesting, and a real divergence from the previous generation shows. I was really affected by that. And I thought that that project came into view in a really intense way in this finale. And it was, I think, bring it all the way full circle to your initial question, incredibly freeing, not just for Carmi, but for the future of a show that has been held hostage, not just by the please keep it stretched out whims of a network, but also by the difficult man tantrum, essentially.

43:23Andy Greenwald:and repression of its lead. Yeah, I'm trying to be better about being like, it should have been this, and be just like, okay, what did we get? We don't actually ever, we never really got a three and four where a compromise made with FX that wanted more episodes and we were working around Fantastic Four and Deliver Me From You. Yeah, we don't know that. We don't know that. It honestly could be that Chris was like, I want a little more space here. I want a little more room to experiment. And I want to like kind of mess with the form. And, you know, I think the first episode of the third season, which is a very divisive episode that I continue.

44:00I've rewatched it in the intervening days since the last podcast. And I was like, it's still an extraordinary piece of filmmaking that actually has way more narrative in it that I remember. Yeah. So you get these moments of him seeing Claire outside of his mom's house the night of fishes or him. I believe it's 301 that you see that he goes to the funeral and can't bring himself to actually participate.

44:26Andy Greenwald:And that's obviously a huge revelation. And that's a huge part of the last two episodes of the season. So I'm trying not to like what we could have had versus what we had. I think that for me, the 9 and 10 stretch, and Joanna Cal and Christora wrote the ninth one, Christora wrote and directed the last one. Yeah, you've been waiting the entire time for Carmi and Richie to have this conversation. It seems absurd maybe that Sid has not opened her email and Carmi has not found another moment to talk to Sid in the intervening moments between whenever her dad has the heart attack. I think it's in 4.05 or 6.

45:04Andy Greenwald:The picking nits about timing is a self-inflicted wound. I mean, there are... But in any case, none of that can happen until Carmi and DeeDee talk. Like ultimately, like he needs to be told that he has some value by the only person he's ever wanted to please aside from Mikey. And then he can go forward and like be there in a presence, like a present moment with other people like that shit did make sense to me. And I have to say, for as up and down as I've been on Jamie Lee Curtis for this entire run of the show, every moment was worth it for that scene. yeah i i agree i think that there's something that i i wish other people would study and it is it's probably specific to the caliber performer or the type of performer that that gets hired for the show but the intimacy of the scene work again and again but particularly that scene with the two of them and then everyone involved in the finale it's really rare it's it's it's theatrical it it makes you feel like you are in the room with them.

46:11Andy Greenwald:And everything is, it's such intense closeup, but it's so present. Like I, I, I'm so riveted. I mean, I think Evan Moss Bacharach is an incredible actor. It's an all time TV character performance, regardless of the episodes of the season that he's in. When he, when he, when the blow lands on him, when Carmi says, I was at the funeral and he turns and he comes in like a heat seeking missile. Like between us right now. Yeah. I can't take my eyes off it is absolutely that's Harvey Keitel shit that's like the stuff it's electric it's electric he is living the emotional truth of the character in that moment and Chris Storra just hit record you know it's wild but you can't do that I mean he'd say that any actor would say that you can't do that without your scene partner or without trusting your crew or without trusting your director and that is such a gift and I totally agree that it came down to that kind of intimacy and you know that The only person he wants to impress, and he doesn't let her into the restaurant, he cooks from her own kitchen.

47:12Andy Greenwald:And that frees him from the burden of restaurant cooking. But even the conversation that they have where Dee Dee is clearly following the program and trying to make amends with Carmen in a very structured way. Yeah. I felt like just even around that conversation and the way Jeremy Allen White projects discomfort in the very same moment of being like, I can't believe everything I've ever wanted is about to happen, which is my mom's going to apologize to me and say that she loves me and that I'm special to her. To be able to do both of those things pretty much at the same time is extraordinary. And it really reminded me of that very significant moment that I referenced earlier on Succession where Andy and I had a conversation about how the detail of the writing and performance in that episode was such that you were like, somebody in this writer's room or multiple people in this writer's room have experienced the sudden loss of a parent.

48:13The writing on Nine and the writing between Carmen and Didi is like, this is like what you talk about with parents as they get older. And you get uncomfortable when you're like, I don't want to be in this moment with you right now. But then it breaks through to something else.

48:29Andy Greenwald:I think even separate from the parent relationship, because I said the previous episode podcast that, you know, I think the bear works best as a fantasy. And again, I do not mean that in a pejorative way. It is a fantasy. No, I know. It's the table and the cans of money. Or that your troubled mother, when you finally are basically forced to sit in the room with her, has 30 pages of handwritten notes that she will just vulnerably share with you about how she feels about things and open herself up and be vulnerable so you can be vulnerable too. But separate and apart from the specifics of that relationship, that one thing that I think a lot of drama writing, let alone best comedy writing, I think a lot of the writing fails to capture, is that when someone that you are in conflict with says the thing you most want them to say, the real challenge is letting it in.

49:20Andy Greenwald:And that's Richie's entire thing. And I mean, that's why the yelling between Sidney and Carmen where they don't speak to each other feels cathartic and not and messy but not unpleasant or not untrue because the real work always is on yourself right you have to let you have to let the words in because the the armor that you've built for yourself um can start to feel comfortable and familiar and righteous and to do to to break down not just the Sidney Carmen one but the Carmen Richie one and then have sugar come in and just melt it all like freshly fallen snow is like that's that's very very uh complicated and elegant writing even though it's messy and yelling I it's it's the thing about this that I just I find confounding because look what they are capable of doing look what Chris Storr is capable of doing with these actors in 28 minutes you know the the way that the show is shot for the most part there was a lot of very very tight close ups I don't know what like lens choice he made but often the faces fill the screen they're enormous the D.D.

50:29Carm scene Sugar getting the news about the food and wine review there's just like a lot of very intimate at times claustrophobic close ups and I wondered whether or not you read the the choice visually to shoot that last episode almost like a play and let these guys exist in a kind of physical space and move around and interact and hand each other cigarettes and

50:56Andy Greenwald:pull them away and all that stuff sydney smoking a cigarette like i did the one time i was depressed well it was ironically a breath of fresh air to me to see this kind of like physical movement in a show that i think had tightened it up a little bit maybe more than i expected it to over the course of the last season or two. Yeah, I think that that was a validation of the bet that the creative team made was that this was always the show. This was always the journey. This was always what interested them was the emotional journey of a blocked guy returning to his hometown and struggling with his genius and struggling with the opportunity to be better.

51:37Andy Greenwald:And I think it was, I would imagine that everyone involved in the show would feel extremely validated and extremely proud that for a show that got so much attention for the t-shirts characters were wearing or the real life culinary heroes who were making appearances or any of the stuff that came from the kitchen setting. Oh, it's so tense in there. I had no idea, you know, whatever the coverage was, that they could earn this. And I would imagine even the biggest skeptic who made it to this episode was like, that's my show. Yeah. that's the bear and that's what it always was um i think i think it's amazing and i'm happy where we got and also it is a thing where like so i learned i i didn't finish the season until uh the news broke right that that the show had been renewed we'd i definitely was approaching it with some skepticism i wasn't doing a great job being like you'll see when you get to the end yeah Also the last episode's called Goodbye.

52:39Andy Greenwald:But would I have been satisfied if this is a finale? Yes, because I do think that as has been apocryphally told and retold, this was the final beat of the three season structure and maybe even the original shorter length feature that the bear began as in Christora's mind or in his laptop. Like this was where it was ending. And I think that there is enough power in that's actually the show to leave it there. but and i'm really curious if we could get some clarity or maybe we'll get to have some creative conversations with the people involved when they got when they opened themselves up to the idea of doing more so a couple things about that um we we said in passing before we reached the end that like is carmy the block on the show is the show better or more interesting i had a thing i wanted to ask you about because i it's it's pretty rare uh this happened more typically happens more in music okay but it's pretty rare to be experiencing a tv show where it's it's about what it's about which is you know making a restaurant work in 2020s and this guy who's traumatized by loss and emotional abuse trying to heal himself but it's also about the tv show the bear and And, you know, there's a moment in eight where, actually a scene I really loved between Koppelman as the computer and Sugar.

54:10And they have this conversation about the numbers. And that's just like, okay, so what are you telling me? What are you telling me? And he's like, well, what do you want this to be? And she's like, we can make art big. We can do it. We can basically stay afloat. And then everything we do here is like, that's a little bit of profit. and I think he says that's a pocket umbrella that the rain just goes around when you use it. And she's like, but we can keep going. And he was like, yes, but the question is, why would you want to? Which I don't think is necessarily, I don't apply it to the bear as a show.

54:44I apply it to doing anything. Like, is it enough for it just to be enough? And then you have to basically decide, are you in it for the people you're doing it with or are you in it for the other stuff?

54:58Andy Greenwald:That's the story of this podcast, right? No. I mean, that's why. That's why it's the big rewatchable sign. Well, the name of our, in defense, the name of our podcast is there. Yeah. Oh, why didn't we just use electrical tape when we're in here? I don't want to damage Bill's sign. Oh, that's right. He would probably know who did it. Speaking of Mad Men, this is a. Do you see what I'm saying though? Yes. The idea of like the bear also being about making a TV show. So the reason I want to go back to Mad Men is because Mad Men was also quite meta and you could you could do a one to one on some actual things behind the scenes of what was happening on screen.

55:33Andy Greenwald:And famously, the agreed upon consensus best episode of the series is the suitcase. That's what the money's for scene is Matt Weiner, the creator. But in his telling of it, his understanding of it, or at least other people's psychological read of it, he's Peggy. And Don is David Chase. Yes. and it would be funny if Matt Weiner's telling it was like a really nice thing to say like well that is what the money is for while they're at the dealership buying something I wonder if there was like another Jon Hamm reading of that like a different take that's what the money is for if they did an Apatow just for us take of every scene of Mad Men I think it would tell us a lot and if season five of The Bear was announced with Iowa Debris as the star and Joanna Kahlo as the showrunner.

56:24This is just psychological fan casting.

56:27Andy Greenwald:Now, I'm not saying that's what's happening. I do think that the renewal announcement was interesting because it didn't confirm or deny anyone's involvement in it. I imagine that has to do with the fact that they wanted to put the word up, but also that all the deals weren't closed and that maybe there are going to be some surprises. Now, that said, the most impressive thing in many ways about the Bears' run up to this point is the large sense of community and community theater that Christor has created, where it seems like anyone will not only show up whenever, they'd be thrilled to do so, to be a part of it.

57:04Andy Greenwald:And so it actually feels absolutely natural. Again, this is not based on any knowledge, but if season five is announced and Jeremy Allen White is a special guest star or he's only in the first and last episode, Or he's haunting it the way Claire Bearer haunted season three. And he can shoot all that in a week before going to do, you know, Springsteen 2. Like that, the tunnel of love years, which I am actively pitching. That is still the show. That is not after MASH. You know what I mean? Like that actually still is the show and in keeping with the spirit of it. And it's not unintentional that the one line that kind of didn't clunk, but it was just like, oh, okay.

57:48Andy Greenwald:in the finale is when he says, Sydney, you are the bear. I didn't think that that clunked at all. I know that some people are like, I didn't like that, but I don't. It's actually interesting. Carm's nickname is Bear. It's not the bear. He's not like you're me or anything. Like she's the restaurant. Yeah, no, I get it. It turns out that she embodies the spirit of this restaurant that I don't know that the Carmi character ever could get his head or hands around. That's completely true. So that's why I don't note it. Like I'm not, I let that one, I'm the executive, they shoot it. But it is also a little bit of like, that's the trail.

58:25Like next season, the season four recap. It'll have the voiceover. Yeah.

58:29Andy Greenwald:That line is in there. Yeah. But the idea of Richie being a full partner in something for the first time in his life, Sidney, who has just, you know, an episode or two ago is shooting free throws to determine whether the universe thinks she's a trash person or not. can they do more than just tread water? Will they be supported like, you know, like, like Momofuku restaurants, but also selling sauces and noodles. And in this case, Italian sandwiches, like what, what, what kind of a company will it be and where will the finances come from to balance the larger thing? Cause it's like the, it sounds like the, the takeaway kitchen, the to-go kitchen is going to be like a going concern.

59:13And honestly, just the thought of these people,

59:16Andy Greenwald:these creative people, not just the writers and directors and the actors, but like everyone involved in it being like, what else could we do here? What else can we make the show about? Could there be a, not a villain, but like a heavy introduced to the show, an antagonist? Could there be something with customers? Could there be something, you know, could it be about something other than the Brissado family psychodrama? I find exciting because I think unlike with a lot of other shows that had the opportunity to continue this episode really really resolved a lot of shit in a way that felt earned and touching and i think that the show has made a lot of brave creative choices over its time and i think whether it's because jeremy allen white wants to do movies or this is just what we're imagining is the case and from the beginning it's been like if i had to guess i think it's like not an easy character to play And it's like, it's not like he gets, you know, he has to be in a very emotionally damaged mindset or pretend to be, you know, for the entirety of the series.

1:00:19He only really gets some light in his life in these last few episodes. Although that being said, like you can go back to season two and there's more kind of not humor, but I would say that he's a more functional like person. Yeah. Human. A little bit. Yeah, I think it's the breakup with Claire and some other things that happen in two.

1:00:42Andy Greenwald:The extra season here did him no favors because his arc was the show's arc and he just had to carry the burden of a lack of movement for a very, very long time. And what I was saying before about like that movement stuff, that timing stuff, generally in filmed entertainment, we are not sitting there with a stopwatch or like putting it together, you know, like like Carrie Matheson's crazy board being like, when did this happen in the timeline? But because the show made itself so much about stretching and then also about how every second counts, it's asking for it so that every scene in the back half of the season between Jess and Richie, where it's just like, oh, today they're going to have another move the ball forward, profound conversation based on a question that anyone who started working at a place would have asked three months ago, felt weird.

1:01:27Andy Greenwald:Did I love those scenes? Yes. Sarah Ramos is awesome. Like, that's another storyline of them, their flirtation, whatever it is. Like, let's go. I'm here for it. in the most basic bitch TV fan way possible. I am shipping them, okay? Shipping them like Odysseus was shipping the whatever it was called. I didn't research it ahead of time. But that's me. What does that mean? You didn't read it? You didn't read the Odyssey? I've glanced at it like I glanced at Ironheart. I feel like they're both cultural. They're content for me to consume. Windhorse Fingers. My point is I enjoyed those scenes, but it was tough for me to watch them for what they were as opposed to like did they just shoot these all in the same day and then just i know that's the thing is like i think i think it's good for us too and it's good for the viewers because i i don't think viewers are maybe as addicted to figuring this shit out as you and i are but like we need a break from like did they shoot all of this in the weeks before he left to go do but i want to be clear it's not just that I'm trying to do the forensic analysis the timeline it's just it's it's also how it felt within the three months of this season right this season takes that's what the clock is set for at the beginning of the season of how much yeah how much rope they have because and they they basically do an echo of the second season premiere where Carm is really bad at math or keeping time and keeps adding or subtracting money in months to the clock do you feel as someone who you know still goes home to his childhood home in Philadelphia.

1:02:59Andy Greenwald:Do you feel that Claire's sweatshirt being in his closet strained credulity? Like did you, you bought that? Yes. Have you found equally specific things? I got rid of a bunch of stuff, but I still have some very important baseball memorabilia from 40 years of service to the game. Very important baseball memorabilia. Can we, can we get a little trophies still have my my jacket from travel baseball um i doesn't fit i not recently because my parents moved 15 years ago but like when they were moving out of my childhood home like i did find things like a baseball that my grandfather had given me that was signed by mike schmidt and i was like i brought it to my parents i was like this is pretty cool yeah like i can't say that pop pop was the friendliest fella but he did get this for me and my mom was like that's his handwriting.

1:03:51Andy Greenwald:You know that, right? I was like, wow, any other dreams you want to machine gun? Right now? Alden Ehrenreich plays Obadiah Stane, by the way. Or his son, Zeke. Not to blow your mind there. I thought you were fan casting Alden Ehrenreich as a young Henry Greenwald. What would you do if Bear Season 5 Episode 1 is Carmi and and Claire in Barcelona wandering around looking at architecture and eating. Hell yeah. Like, what if it is still a Carmi show? Well, I'm not saying it shouldn't be, but I'm saying, him saying, and also, we're making it seem cut and dry. One of the other things... What's the new El Bouilly restaurant called?

1:04:38They closed El Bouilly, right?

1:04:40Andy Greenwald:Yeah, well, Fernand closed it, but Albert, his brother, has, like, tickets? Tickets. That's where they got the popcorn machine when you walk in. That's what it was on Bourdain. That's what you heard about. I've never been to Spain. that's secretly what you were doing last week. You were just location scouting for Bear S5. I think we should give the show also some credit for the way the argument broke down where two things could be true at once, that he was doing something kind that also doing something selfish that tracked with how he had behaved previously. I think it went right at that. The show isn't necessarily better without him and that character in it.

1:05:19Andy Greenwald:It would not make any sense if he was just written off like like when Valerie became the Hogan family. You know what I mean? It's not it's not that. But give him different light, different energy, different frequency of usage. And I think it becomes a different, more naturally evolving thing. That said, I've been watching some really, really good travel reels in Lisbon recently. And I feel like maybe that's where he and Claire should go. It's interesting. Just for like the seafood and beer, like very low key or like the Bifana stand, you know, you just get your little pork sandwich. Have you? Yeah.

1:05:55Must be nice. I preferred Porto personally. Did you? Yeah. I'm a little bit more of a northern industrial guy, you know, rather than. Do you.

1:06:05Andy Greenwald:If I had access to your Google history, like how many times have you searched? What is the Manchester of blank for like every place you go? Pretty much. So you can walk the streets. I just, you know what, Porto was a little bit more temperate when I was there. And, you know, it's got the wine country right outside of the city. Like Portland does. Another favorite of yours. And I found, like, the architecture of Porto to be gorgeous. Lisbon's, you know, it's easy to look at. You know what I mean? But real heads know, huh? Real heads do know. I mean, I'm just looking at my phone, just trying to pay these bills, you know?

1:06:41Do you want to talk a little bit About Our playlist before we get out of here

1:06:46Andy Greenwald:Oh yeah how are you feeling about it this year Well let me introduce this concept just to say That like a couple years ago we decided we would Because we don't really talk about music on the pod anymore But we Or professionally really like we used to But we did want to bless the people With something And I I remember in the first year We're making songs that we like Not necessarily new songs but songs that we are really digging that we think would be really good for... You're the executive producer of this project. For sure, but I appreciate that. But in the beginning, it really was like, this is for your barbecue playlist.

1:07:20Andy Greenwald:Yes. And I believe the first edition of this, I had like a DJ Khaled song on it. In recent years, personal tastes have really started to drive the narrative where I'm like, Chris... Get it off your chest. I'm like, Chris, can you send me like eight tracks that you're really feeling right now? What I don't say, what I leave unsaid is, could some of them not be 10-minute shoegaze drones? and you're like gouge away yeah right and you're like at your age you like what you like so now it's really more of a back and forth i've curated my picks for this series year these could feasibly play during a barbecue what else is happening during this barbecue is just everyone talking about the big beautiful bill and what it's going to do to all of our lives and the future of this country like is that the kind of intended uh i actually really like jokes aside i do love doing this because you introduced me to really good songs that i like you introduced me to really good stuff too and i i feel like i feel very good about this i thought we were sticking to more current stuff but the first track you picked is a joe walsh song from but seriously folks but then the rest of it is new but that i have been listening to that his 1978 solo record because theme from boat weirdos rules yeah and i was like this is setting the mood yeah it's it's a good like opening gambit i feel like the last few years i've put one old song at the end for the heads but this year you dropped the live version of nobody by knife play and i was like Like, well, we know the set closer Ugly Light song for this year.

1:08:40That's a good song. It fucking rules. That's more like on the crazy horse meets spiritualized meets shoegaze.

1:08:47Andy Greenwald:I just want to say, I don't want to like make things all about me, but like 90 % about me. I just feel like I really relate now to the line producer of the bear trying to juggle everyone's schedules so that everyone can make Avengers Doomsday, but also make a season of television. That's what I'm like trying to make a West Side Gun remix get along with Dean Blunt. Oh, yeah. My boy from Ice Age. You know what I mean? Yes. Yeah. But yeah, we got we. I think it would be fun to see if like the real heads can tell who picked what, who did what on this. Yeah, you did eight. I did 10 songs just to assert my dominance a little bit more while you were vacationing in Portugal.

1:09:27Andy Greenwald:But I think everything else on here, other than the first track, every other song on here, I think is a new song from 2025. Yeah, I tried to make it that way maybe there's a 24 in there or something like that i think you're right i think people should be able to listen to it and then and then check it out and guess who picked what i will say that i did a 180 on yule because we saw yule perform live on melaney and i came back absolutely shook up like william f buckley that was that was like that was kind of your barbie you know where you were like you saw five seconds of yule and you were like not at all and then i heard the other songs the record i'm like it's pretty good yeah um this is always a fun exercise there's lots of really good stuff on here.

1:10:07Dark Glacier. Sorry, they are getting a body of water. We both love that song. Hotline TNT's new album is awesome. It's on there.

1:10:14Andy Greenwald:New Preoccupations album is great. Yeah. Had you heard Exvoid before? Because that's my guy from the tubs. Yeah, I had. What's that like? I was about to say, what's it like having two things, projects simultaneously that are both really good? And then I remembered that we're in the Rewatchable studio. And this is just how you wake up every morning. This is my side project. This is my lo-fi Bedroom pop thing Just for the heads Happy July 4th to you I hope people have a great weekend celebrating To John, to Olivia, to our listeners To Kaya, wherever she is She's celebrating already We'll be back on Monday talking about some TV that we've missed Over the last couple of months Smoke is relatively recent I think it'll already have four episodes out I doubt we'll be talking about all of them But we'll generally speak about that That's on Apple TV The Eaternaught Eternot?

1:11:05Eternot? We'll find out. Is on Netflix and has just kind of come recommended from a couple of different sources. People being like, you guys check this out? Would you check this out? And we're due an international sci-fi Netflix banger since dark. And I... That always feels good to find that. It does. I'm sure we'll have some other observations from what will no doubt be an eventless weekend in America. They all are these days. Thanks for listening and happy July 4th. We'll talk to you guys on Monday.

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