The Best Shows of the Year (So Far)

19:45It's got Homer Gear and Kaia Gerber. Am I right?

19:48Andy Greenwald:Two of your favorites who just did it on their own. You know what I mean? Just like... Look, as a Nepo, I can't really blame him. That's true. Yeah. That's true. Do you guys have a meeting? That's right. You go to? Hey, Kaia, what's up? Cool, what are you reading? She's got a copy of your dad's, like, 1981 video guide open. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan.

20:25Andy Greenwald:Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Okay, so do you want to call this the best shows of the year, or do you want to call it our favorite shows of the year? Here's the thing that I've been struggling with, Andy. Okay. The unknowability of the totality of television, you know? And also maybe not wanting to know everything. Because it's like, I think that there are going to be some things that get left out here. there are going to be some things that we didn't finish.

20:55Andy Greenwald:From this list that we're going to offer up? You could make arguments that some things should get in there. But I have felt more challenged this year than usual by staying on top of everything that's relevant in television. Do you have a list of, not to put you on the spot, but do you have a woulda-couldas list, like things that you kind of hope to engage with or things that you feel remiss? Because I'll tell you one thing. My conscience is clear. Is it? Crystal. You don't care. No, I didn't say I don't care, but like I hit me if you have some because I'm curious. I mean, like it's like Riot Grrrls, like the Sally.

21:31Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, like I feel bad for not seeing that. We've been criminally behind on or really ignorant of dark winds. I really only watched the first few episodes of Interview with a Vampire, so I'm not prepared for like the vampire list that like things like that, where I know that there are things of people I really respect their opinion and love. and I just haven't caught up on it. And I think probably they look at us and they're like, damn, those guys like Star City a lot. It's true.

21:57Andy Greenwald:What about, maybe we'll get to it when we finally can get to it. But I do find, I do find what's happened to that show, The Gold, so interesting in that we really, really, really love the first season of it. They made a second season of it, which was released in the UK last year. And I believe is now coming to our shores via PBS Masterpiece or something in the fall. I have to tell you something. That is so specific. Last night I had a couple glasses of rosé. No shame in it. This was after you recorded the Bill Simmons podcast. Yes, it was after. And then I tucked into bed because I knew I had to come in here and chat with you.

22:34You need to rest for that. I am about midway through London Falling, the Patrick Raddenkief book. Oh, yeah. And right as I was getting into bed, the fucking gold case comes up in the book. No. And I was just like, the fucking streams are crossing. Let's go. Did you sit up right in bed?

22:54Andy Greenwald:Yes. Yes. Was Phoebe alarmed? No. That's cool. Yeah. I was like, this is what it's all about. I'm just trying to think, though, of any example of something that was relatively available, like the season one. And now it's like, oh, I used to get this product at Albertsons or Acme or whatever your local supermarket is, but now it's only available by bespoke delivery from the tinned fish shop outside of Sevilla. I almost wish we could go back to going to websites like IraqGoals.net to watch. That was you, dude. That was me. That was my spot. IraqGoals.net. That's where I used to watch live-streamed soccer.

23:41Andy Greenwald:That's also where you were like, you ever heard about a show called Black Mirror? Yeah. And I was like, no. Is it in the UK? And you were like, not yet. It's only on this website. It was like basically you had to like download episodes of Black Mirror off of BBC from like Torrance and stuff. Is the statute of limitations clear on that, do you think? They can come for me if they want, but I can think of a few defense attorneys who would take my case up. Okay. Well, I think this is also smart because I think we've learned in recent elections that like Gen Z voters, they don't really care. What they care about is how you own it.

24:14Andy Greenwald:You know what I mean? like own your problematic past or posts as the case may be for you um how do you want to do our best of what did you do what did i mean i have a long list of 17 shows oh damn uh i have a numbered list of 10 i have a numbered list of 10 i bet we have tons of overlap as listeners of the podcast you know ordinarily i would count us down but i think that it might be a little bit more interesting if we sort of said we stipulate that these are the top five which i think would probably be for Are both of us the same things? Would you like to tell me your top five? Of course, I'm looking at it and I'm like, who wrote this list?

24:50I'll tell you what my top five is while you think about yours.

24:53Andy Greenwald:What's weird about my list, because we were discussing before we started, like how I use the Notes app, is that my list is like the pit, almonds. You know what I mean? Almonds is a great show. Almonds are really good for you. Okay, yeah, why don't you go? And as far as I know, not like smothered in parasites. As far as you know. Yeah. Number one, I have Widow's Bay. Me too. Number two, I have Industry. Okay. Number three, I have Star City. That's my number three, too. Yeah. Number four, I have The Pit. Wow. Okay. What, is that okay? Yeah, we're Spider-Man meme right now. And number five, I have Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

25:25Andy Greenwald:Okay, we are exactly the same boy, except at number two, instead of industry, I have beef. Is industry in your top five? Top five, no. Top ten, yes. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. I am who I am. I'm being consistent. Is Widow's Bay recency bias? Is it the shiny new car on the lot? What is it that makes it the number one show for us so far? I think that it's a combination of all the things we love best about TV. I think that it's without question, we, I know this is true for me, but I think it's true for us collectively in the podcast. We really get excited about something that is getting everyone excited.

26:07Andy Greenwald:We get excited about the potential for surprise, even in this over-indexed media landscape. We get excited about the, it's a very pure, old-fashioned kind of joy of sharing the good news that there is something really wonderful out there that you can discover and adopt. And the week-to-week release of Widow's Bay reminded me of the week-to-week release of The Pit season one. It did remind me of like those first beautiful few weeks five years ago or four years ago when The Pit, sorry, when The Bear dropped. so that collective euphoria is definitely part of it but the other thing about it was no show that's been out this year so far brought me a as much joy but also just made me so deeply deeply impressed okay in the sense of like the the the aesthetic and uh writerly and producorial and directorial achievement of it was just at such a high bar that it just it made me very happy yeah I think that there is always going to be an extra 10 % of juice that comes out of being like, wow, new people, new characters, actors who I'm familiar with in different roles, like getting to express themselves in different ways.

27:20And I think the totality, the realization of the world that Katie Dippold and Hiro Mirai brought to us was just astonishing. You know, they came on the show. We talked about that. I kind of had like a moment of revelation when Hiro was talking about, you know, putting working with Katie to build out the visual world of that show. And, you know, and I often I think get seduced by the by camera movement or, you know, you know, expressive lighting or whatever I think that are the tools of the director or the ways that a director might sign their name. And to hear him talking about set design, production design, costume design, building out a thematic and consistent kind of way to see this whole thing, that to me is direction.

28:08you know and Katie is obviously like the creator of the show and and a brilliant writer and I think brought her sensibility of kind of the Mike Schur sitcom era and molded it with some of the best elements of not mystery box television but genre television absolutely I couldn't agree more um for me industry took the biggest swings took the most chances um broke the most hearts bloody the most noses ruin the most bank accounts you know like it was I think I just will just never ever look at this show as anything less than among the best things that have come out this decade and what it's done with the characters I think once we get done with it next year and take a step back and see like can you fucking believe when you go back to episode one and you see Yasmin and Harper on their first days at pure point where we leave them and especially where we left them in this previous season it's an unbelievable journey um and it still feels plausible it still feels real it still feels very very current um and it's it's thrilling to look at and it's thrilling to to watch separate

29:22Andy Greenwald:and apart from you know i i thought the season was incredible and had incredible highs and also had some to my mind lows um so it's in my top 10 but not my top five but I think the way that I think about the show and the thing that fills me with the most excitement about the show and this is recency bias but I think Mickey and Conrad would appreciate this is when you watch as much World Cup as I've been watching for the last few weeks as we all have hopefully you know especially You supported Rojas? Well, I'm listening purely in the Catalan feed. Yeah. The, my favorite thing is when the English announcers are calling the matches and like someone just immediately dribbles and shoots over the crossbar and they're like, you'd like to see a bit more cleverness, a bit more invention, a bit more optimism there, you know, when whoever has the ball.

30:14Andy Greenwald:And that's what I think about when I think about industry, where I'm like, okay, they've got the ball. they never fail to try something. They do not try to defend a one-nothing lead. They do not park the bus. They do not even have a... And they could. You could do yet another season of crazy investments over here at Pierpoint and Eric swinging his bat on the floor. They do not have an emergency brake on the vehicle that they're driving. And what do we root for when we watch things? So I think that's unique and thrilling. We didn't get to talk about the Star City finale together. Excuse me, beef erasure.

30:52Andy Greenwald:Well, I was just, I don't know. I'm going to go to Star City. I just want to say. Sorry, I'm acting like you were a vegan. Go ahead and talk about beef. No, I just want to say again, like my admiration for this season has only grown. Oh, right, because industry's not in your top five. My bad. Yeah. I just think that Lee Jung-Sin, Sonny, who created the show, like is using contemporary television at such an elite level. And what I mean by that is like the Netflix model and the Netflix largesse and the auteur showrunner model to make something, and like the celebrity star machine in terms of who he's casting and who he has access to, and like Phineas is doing the music, but to do it to make something that is such a tightrope walk of farce and searing emotional social drama that's about right now and the way that we live through screens and internationally all at once, I find thrilling.

31:44Andy Greenwald:I just thought that show was incredible. Yeah, it's on my top ten. but it's not in my top five. I'm glad though you were good. I did want to talk Star City because we didn't get to talk about the finale. Your thoughts are not on the record. They're not. I think that my big takeaway was the extent to which that functions as both a series and season finale. I think obviously there's final moments that suggest the story going forward and obviously there's a timeline that For All Mankind is laid out with several of the characters from Star City that suggests story to be told, yet to be told. I really, really, really, really want a second season.

32:28I would love to see it. But, you know, if you were just going to do, like, a short novella about, you know, the Soviet side of this story, this would be the perfect one.

32:40Andy Greenwald:But don't you think there is too much... I know that you want it, so I'm not asking you to be devil's advocate here, But like, because the show so brilliantly privileged the inner emotional life of characters versus, you know, the Narcos Wikipedia, even fake history model of just showing us cogs in the larger machine. That like there's almost too much still left on the table to feel good about a resolution. Like I think I want it. I know you're not arguing otherwise, but like I want the second season not because I need to know what happened with the Venus program. but more like these particular people at this moment in this fake history, what happened to them?

33:17Yeah, I want to see what happens with Anastasia and Sasha. I want to see what happens with Irina. Absolutely.

33:22Andy Greenwald:I also want to say because I got to talk to the showrunners Matt and Ben, but I don't think I got to talk too much specifically without them. And I did see someone saying the usual like, oh, we glaze the shows that the showrunners come on to talk about. It goes the opposite way, guys. We glaze the shows and then we ask the showrunners. Because that makes us interested in talking to them. I want to be really clear about something. Like, I didn't, we didn't invite them on, and then I watched the finale, and it was like, oh, I guess I'll just dance around some stuff. Like, I fucking love that when it came down to the decision to do we make the single most emotionally compelling finale possible, or do we listen to the bright boys in the science consulting department and say, like, oh, actually, Anastasia probably couldn't jump from orbit and land in Finland to rescue her arranged marriage husband, they said, fuck logic.

34:13Andy Greenwald:We're going with our heart here. Like, that's what, it was interesting to me. And so you could talk all you want about how the show does not have fealty to the historical record of Finlandization, where Finland sent people back who tried to come over from the Soviet Union. Or you could just be like, that's so sick. And it suits the characters. But wouldn't also the whole, maybe Finland's, like, relationship to Finlandization be different if Russia, if the Soviets had gotten to the moon? Can't they explain anything away by having this ripple effect coming off of their moon landing? Also, if you genuinely watch that show and you're like, this would be better if it was closer to the historical record or to the logistics of orbital space travel, then, I don't know, touch grass nerd.

35:00I don't even know who we're talking to, but the entire show is an act of suspension of disbelief. It's Soviet speaking in colloquial English and at points acting way more like English people than probably Soviets. Have you heard it?

35:15Andy Greenwald:We often small sample size this, but do you have any anecdotal experience in your life of people being like, oh, should I check that out and then liking it despite having some skepticism? Star City specifically? Yes. You've converted some people? Yes. Good. Yeah. We converted Tracy Letts. oh yeah I mean I don't think he was skeptical I just think he was like I would never have thought to check this out were it not for your enthusiasm how come he doesn't want to be third chair of this podcast I think you I police this side of the table too fiercely I think that there's room for one big big personality on that side of the table I would be interested to see the vibe between you two we get along yeah no you get along great but I think like I'm Chris Paul man everybody gets a shot okay I don't need I don't need to say what I think famously beloved teammate Chris Paul just celebrated in every locker room he's ever been in right he just demands a lot he gets it the pit I guess I've uh diminished here because of its consistency I you know I got excited about Windows Bay I get excited about Star City I think industry just took me places that I never would have guessed it would have at the beginning of the season the pit essentially iterated on its first season did the very wise thing of not having i didn't have a mass shooting it didn't have like a mass casualty event it's just like this was a very hard day this is about doctors needing their own medicine you know i know i thought it was i thought it was remarkable and especially as it the last few episodes i thought were extraordinary yeah um i it's it's it's no criticism that it's at fourth here it's just where it wound up was it fourth for you we had the same top five except Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

36:57I would love to know if there was any influence on this season of House of the Dragon by Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I'm sure that's not how TV production works, where I'm sure they were basically done House of the Dragon by the time Night of the Seven Kingdoms was airing.

37:11Andy Greenwald:I think they overlap. They don't film in the same place. House of the Dragon films at my beloved Leavesden Studios near scenic Watford, England. Yeah. And I think Night of the Seven Kingdoms was back in Belfast, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. I actually think, and I haven't rewatched since it aired earlier in the year, but I feel like Night of the Seven Kingdoms, despite getting Emmy attention and being nominated for Best Drama Series in its first season, is almost underrated, and I feel even more impressed by its achievement in the light of this season of House of the Dragon. I'm not trying to rage bait or pit them against each other.

37:49Andy Greenwald:It's just you and me, man. Don't worry about them. But now Tracy's listening, and he's leaning in. You know what I mean? And I want him to respect this take. We didn't really talk about it. It's totally fine. I don't have a lot to add to the conversation about this week's House of the Dragon episode, but I was noticing the way that it feels in ways good and, frankly, bad that the show has so clearly ventured out beyond the pier, so to speak. Like, whether it's the lack of George Martin or whether it's the, like a - You mean off the text? Not just the text, but just like this. It's still relatively close to it, yeah.

38:26Andy Greenwald:I just have no, like, making the aesthetic decision to do the Rhaenyra POV episode was a bold swing that I didn't know was in its playbook, and that was exciting to see. And we were joking to, like, casting, casting what's-his-name, the American guy, Dan, I keep wanting to say, like, Dan Fogler, Fogler, as Fogler, sorry, yes, as Torrin, the new master of coin. These feel like aesthetic choices that are outside of what I would have expected. It certainly breaks from the orthodoxy of the first two seasons. Or kind of the template that was set by Game of Thrones. And remember, one of the weirdest things about House of the Dragon is that it has the same theme music.

39:07Andy Greenwald:It is so intent on telling you, it's Sunday, remember what it feels like? Let's get back to that. This week's episode was fucking interminable. But it also had these moments. Jesus Christ. but like I turned it on after England and I was just like watching those last 10 minutes again for two hours. There's the scenes inside of Tumbleton where it's just like, oh, Martha Stewart's Westeros where the color palette is totally different. And I have wanted things like that on the show, but it feels so like, I understand why often production design on Westerosi shows have been conservative because it is hard to say, we've always done it this way, but what if we did this?

39:45Andy Greenwald:It is challenging. Sure. Night of the Seven Kingdoms felt effortless in the way it was like, no, no, it's going to be this now. And I'm not saying it was as bold of a turn as even some of the decisions seem to seem in House of the Dragon this year, but it launched itself and asserted itself as its own thing so quickly that I'm very impressed by it. I greatly prefer this version of this story where we're getting outside of essentially the two family castles. Like I was actually curious whether or not there's a term or if there is an exercise when you're in a writer's room where you're kind of diagramming how these are the two main characters.

40:26And then from these two characters, these two characters will come. And then from these two, not not necessarily like they begat them, but how, you know, now that we've got like Ormond and, you know, Aegon and Larys are over here. and we've got like all these different tones and all these different like kind of aims that these characters may have, what they want out of all of this. And you know, that has come at the expense maybe of the Valerian family tree where I think Corlys has been sidelined since his, you know, if you're not going to mint my kids, then you can go fuck yourself. Like we haven't had as much of him, but I really enjoy, I am enjoying this version of the show much more than the first two seasons.

41:09Andy Greenwald:yeah without question i just think that like everything about the show including my own reactions to it feel very reactive and still like in the light of what we are used to or what we've come to expect or what we've enjoyed before from this type of storytelling or this specific ip world where night of the seven kingdoms was like hey man it's just a tournament let's chill out yeah right let's just and like what i don't remember the last time it had been since game of thrones honestly where I was like, I just fucking love this new character. I'm psyched. This is awesome. Let's just hang out here.

41:41Which is the new character that you loved?

41:42Andy Greenwald:Many. Specifically, I was thinking about, what's his name? I'm not going to remember all these people's names. The Baratheon? Daniel Ings, yeah. Yeah, Daniel Ings. I bet that you and I are going to have some variants in our bottom five. Great. I want to hear yours. Okay. You want me to go six to ten or ten to six? Six to ten. Six to ten. Let's keep going the same direction. NBC's Rise and Fall of Reggie Dinkins. Great pick. Seven, HBO's Industry. Eight, the show that I'm most excited to talk to you about today. HBO's The Dark Wizard. I love you. Yeah. I do the work. Slowly. But I do the work. I never expected you to watch it.

42:22I was just like, this is great. Check it out if you miss 100 Foot Wave.

42:25Andy Greenwald:But you're also like, check it out if you like things that are great. Yeah. And I did. I like things that are great. Number nine, the Disney Corporation's Wonder Man. I have that on my long list. And then I put the agency at number 10 only because I haven't finished it. And it could be a grower still. But agency season two. But just in terms of my engagement with it, it deserved a spot. My number six is the bear. Look at you. Yeah, the bear. I think those last two episodes make the beginning of the season a little bit more cohesive to me. I think if you look at it in totality with Gary, the standalone episode with Bernthal and Eben Moss Bacharach, between Gary, between moments in the first few episodes of the final season, and then specifically episodes seven and eight, I just think it was a wonderful sendoff.

43:20and I really, I think perhaps there's some sentiment but I also really admire how the visual style of the show evolved the stillness in some ways that it achieves in the last season compared to the frenetic nature of the first season and I thought that there were some really beautiful performances specifically from Bacharach in this final season

43:40Andy Greenwald:I do think you're right to highlight something that I think is probably going to be overlooked a little bit which is for all of the I think fair criticism that Bear has gotten in recent seasons of like story, narrative, character paralysis. I think it's important to differentiate that from the observation that the creative team did clearly look at this as an opportunity to do something different in terms of the filmmaking. Yes. Like we are going to do a season that is going to be this and it will feel distinct in the terms of like how much time passes, the music choices, the camera movement and all that.

44:16Andy Greenwald:that you can't just say it was more of the same in that regard. I also wonder whether time will be a little bit kinder to this series if you binge it, if you rediscover it, if you rewatch it. I don't know in our landscape now if that's something people are doing with shows of recent vintage like this, but I do think that looked at as a whole, as a total meal, it's going to be a better experience than, are they going to get out of this kitchen or is he going to quit? What's going to happen next? Like, you know, I think now that I've seen the entire thing, I appreciate it more. I think that's really interesting because the show is about time.

44:51Andy Greenwald:I mean, two seasons were just about a ticking clock. Yeah. And when it is now, it has now been set free from the bounds of the mad Titan Kronos. And I just wanted to bring it back to the Odyssey if I could. And it may have a different, it may be a different experience. Yeah. We can talk about Dark Wizard in a second. It's my number seven. nice um number eight shorzy as usual and number nine the agency almost done that been been taken away uh thought this season has been excellent uh pacing wise much improved over the first one i think also like you know as is the case with the bureau you see these supporting characters become they could have their own show they could have they have there are as novels worth of interesting material for these various supporting characters.

45:41So the bear, dark wizard, Shorzy, the agency. And my last one is Something Very Bad is Going to Happen.

45:46Andy Greenwald:I wondered if that was going to make it on your list. Yeah, Netflix series about a cursed woman. And I thought that was great. And a really interesting kind of partner show to Widows Bay in that it was trying to play with horror over like a long form story, which is one of the most difficult things to do. Yeah, I watched the first episode and admired it and couldn't do it because of just the ratio. I thought it was very cool and it was very visually compelling. And as far as my limited between my fingers peeking out knowledge of horror, I was like, oh, she's nailing it. But it just wasn't leavened with the comedy.

46:25Andy Greenwald:Nor should it have been. It's its own show. But that was a bridge too far for me. There's a lot of bleeding out of their eyes. yeah um let's talk a little bit about in depth about dark wizard um what prompted you to revisit this yeah did you watch the first episode no i never i okay what prompted you to turn it on well a couple things um you i mean sincerely you were like it's really good yeah um i my reasons for not engaging with it were really stupid and pithy, which was I was like, I think I've given enough of my time to Wizards Named Potter on the HBO network recently, which was a killer text to send once.

47:08Andy Greenwald:Did you send it to me? You were among the recipients. You know, I sometimes recycle material. I had no reason not to do it other than just like time. and because it didn't feel the urgency of scripted or whatever. And then, yeah, when I was traveling, I was like, there are four episodes of this, and it's probably, you know there's a certain way that you can engage with a documentary that is, like, perfect for airplanes? Yes. So it was— Where you get off the plane and you're like, I am an expert in this subject now. Yes, I can't wait to tell everyone. Yeah. Also, it's good. It was kind of undercut by the fact that I did have working Wi-Fi on this airplane, but there is like a really interesting like Faraday cage of, of the brain that happens when you start watching a documentary in which you are blessedly ignorant of everything in which you're like, now I can't use Google anymore because what if I accidentally find out what happens?

48:01Andy Greenwald:So before we, can we do like a few minutes of table setting? Cause I want to just try to get people to watch it. Yeah. I'll just say this is a four part, docuseries directed by Peter Mortimer and Nick Rosen who have made several films and I think some other series about alpinists you know about about mountain climbers they made a film called the alpinist that you can watch on peacock which is extraordinary and I think one thing that's sort of this in the dark wizard follows a man named Dean Potter who is an infamous climber from the late 90s and early 2000s um kind of a contemporary of alex honnold and potter sort of made yosemite and the valleys below the mountains and el cap and and and all the famous mountains in yosemite his playground and was kind of a punk rock icon of mount climbing as it entered the mainstream consciousness through uh the proliferation of like video cameras and then more and more high-end cameras that could capture that kind of action and he was also the basically the face of patagonia as it became more than just like the stuff you wore when you were camping it was like a lifestyle brand as well and i think was you know featured in several um photographic campaigns for patagonia um he is defined by his boundary pushing you know he was one of the people who was like I can go climbing with a parachute so that if I fall he invented this yes like he brought parachutes with him while he would yeah because he's a such a wild thrill seeker who referred to I didn't realize this was a phrase the death consequence as a potential outcome for his activities and what that does to you and to your mind he was just chasing highs and he himself was like very clearly and admittedly bipolar and had mental health struggles and was always pushing.

50:04Andy Greenwald:And so it went from free soloing at an absurd, unprecedented degree to base jumping to then realizing he could combine them into something he quite cleverly and clearly, you know, healthfully called freebasing. Yes. Where you could free solo places. And if you fell, you could just pull your chute. Yeah. And then started doing wingsuit flying. Which is essentially like human flight. You know, it's jumping off a mountain to fly. In a suit. I would say just for people who haven't checked this out, and we could talk a little bit more in depth about it in a second with a spoiler warning. The thing that blows my mind almost as much as what Potter does is the fact that they were able to capture this stuff.

50:44All of it. Because I imagine as this show goes on, I don't know if drone technology is... It doesn't seem like it. ...become widespread, but you basically have Potter was compulsively documented everything in his life. If he didn't have a camera crew with him, he had his buddy filming him.

51:06Andy Greenwald:Sweet Winky. Yeah, and so those guys would basically have rope climbs next to him that would go up or maybe they would get taken to the top of a peak and then they would rappel down to film Potter coming up. But the footage in the show is fucking extraordinary and it's a similar sensation you get from when you're watching 100 Foot Wave although a lot of that I think is done with drones where you're like how the hell am I getting like this swooping shot of this guy going down a titular 100 foot wave the same thing is going on in Dark Wizard where you're just like I just can't believe there was a camera there when this guy fell off a mountain and threw a parachute up in the air I mean it's unreal to watch and the camera the omnipresence of the cameras and the documentation and the show does a really beautiful job with Potter's journals and drawings and animating them and just the outrageous, like 24-7 seemingly access to his mind as well as his actions also speaks to one of the really compelling tensions of the show, which is he believed what he was doing was art.

52:06Andy Greenwald:He believed what he was doing was spirituality. And he had, like many people who believe those things in the vice group of contemporary life, had a very challenging relationship to publicity, to profit to partnerships and participation. And so the fact that he's just like, I am a private person communing with nature, but all of this must be documented is the central tension. And some of the most compelling parts of the series on an emotional level are the central tension between Potter being like deeply Gen X and then everyone else younger than him. Yeah. And you watch him trying to navigate this just like middle finger anti-authoritarianism spiritual lifestyle.

52:55Andy Greenwald:And then Alex Honnold shows up on the scene and he's roughly a decade younger. I think he's like eight or nine years younger. And he's like an IT guy. He has no fear. He has no qualms about turning free climbing, free soloing El Cap into a Squarespace ad. and the relationship that each of them have to each other, but also to their work and also to their own minds is so fascinating. Well, it's just, it's unbelievable. It's the, it's, and it can be applied to so many different, that relationship and their different approaches to mountain climbing can be applied to so many different arenas of life where Potter labors over and stresses over and frets over, like, how am I going to climb this?

53:36I could die. like it's not the right time yet it's not you know he's legitimately i wasn't feeling he's legitimately scared but i think he's also participating in a narrative about like a guy facing a great challenge and honnold's like i fucking climbed it i climbed it i looked like i looked at it and then i just climbed up it and you know like hit a checklist and it and it not only is it like drives potter nuts because this guy keeps beating him two things that he wanted to do but he's almost challenging the very idea that one individual could claim ownership over a mountain or over a climb like honald's like if you want to beat me beat me otherwise like get out of my way and it's not that you know i i love all of that i love the um social subculture of yosemite and guys living in the valley and guys hanging out there year round and getting to know the rangers and what they eat and like the stews that they eat and kind of like the not dumpster diving but the way they'll be like oh you can go over here to pick up good wi-fi or you can eat you know that you sometimes like people leave food behind here and you can pick it up and stuff like that all fascinating uh i think obviously to talk any more in depth about the show one thing before

54:42Andy Greenwald:spoilers okay invariably if we are watching either in person or more often in our own respective um faraday cages sporting events i some i will ask or text i obviously none of us play professional football but if we did like what position do you think you would enjoy doing or i would i'll ask you about like we're watching world cup i'm like better to be good at basketball or be good at soccer for one day you know and either way it's part of like the fantasy of like these people are the best at doing something that looks fun or must feel great to be able to do and that is part of the thrill i will say that free soloing has jumped above 100 foot wave surfing as the thing i have no interest in ever doing and feel no spiritual connection to whatsoever it is fucking terrifying it's incredibly healthy in life to have things you like to look at sure yeah not everything needs to be a participation thing and i don't have any interest in doing either of those things but i realize that like i really love watching people like accomplish great feats in nature i mean it true it's just it it's a great use of the endless libraries of content to have more and more exciting nature documentaries there is um okay so here we'll put a little pin in this yeah we'll do a little spoiler and we'll uh spoil a bit of dark wizard yeah it's been out for a while uh so maybe people have gotten a chance to see it and i think also this is in general um if you google dean potter you'll see that he passed away in 2015 he died while doing one of these free base jumps the way he was doing the flying the flying yeah uh in yosemite ethically and journalistically they make a decision in this in this series similar to the one i can't remember the name of it but there was a free diving documentary about a woman who you know would do these free dives very deep into the ocean and come back up and there's all these like you know depressurization and you know making sure you can make here and here and how long can you hold your breath and in a similar way the the documentary keeps up the appearance that this person may be alive like the way that they frame the interviews uh like it's not a shock but if you don't Google, you'll be like, ah, this person died.

57:10Andy Greenwald:I mean, I would say it's pretty clear to me that he is not participating in the documentary and that the access to... In the present tense. Well, and the fact that they have unfettered access to his private journals and things suggests. But so I was in that fugue state because I did the first two on one flight and then a few days later I did the other ones and so I was stuck. I knew that he was dead. I wasn't sure. I can't remember if you texted me. We're like, is Dean Potter still out there? I did not. No, okay. I did not. does sound like me, but I didn't in this case. But holding that knowledge and then wondering, you know, simultaneously what, which of these things is going to kill him because it could be almost anything that he's doing in any of the episodes.

57:51Andy Greenwald:And then how is it in the fabric of the documentary? Because the documentary is not like a, it's not like a, you know, the cup game when you're getting scammed on the street where it's like they're just trying to reveal something to you. It's actually like trying to tell you a story about risk and adventure and mental health and male friendship, honestly. I think that there's like an obvious... They made a narrative decision not to say that he dies in the first episode. And they do it to create a sense of tension rather than a sense of tragedy. It is obviously tragic what happened, but you can say in the beginning that this guy was a divisive and beloved figure in this community and was constantly pushing.

58:33And what this show is about or what this story is about is about people who willingly take their life in their hands and what happens when one thing goes wrong and whether or not that's an acceptable sort of consequence of a hobby, essentially. It can be a lifestyle. It can be something that brings you closer to kind of an epiphany or a state of spiritual nirvana, but it still is a hobby. And you can die doing it.

59:01Andy Greenwald:And one of the most touching and affecting and surprising turns in the documentary is that, although I don't think it's surprising for people who are paying attention to this more as a story of mental health or addiction, which I think tends to follow a similar pattern, which is that in the fourth episode, but also essentially in the last act of his life, he had a moment of calm. And he had a moment of a connection with a partner, this woman, Jen, who he had worked with before at Patagonia, whom he reconnected with, her children and the role that he played in their life. And then out of nowhere, he gets a fucking dog who becomes his best friend and starts rappelling around the world and face jumping with him.

59:41A lot of comments about whether or not that was a humane thing to do with the dog. Dog seems psyched. Dog seems psyched, yeah.

59:47Andy Greenwald:Dog seems psyched. Only to be pulled back in by the old demons. Among them are ego. Yeah. About being able to do more than other people or to be challenged by younger people. And it's really affecting the way that story is told. I think that, like, they make such smart and really compelling editorial decisions, which is lingering on not just the ways that Dean Potter's psychology hurt the people around him, which is a familiar story. Again, anytime you watch greatness, there's always the people who get left behind. But really underscoring how the people in his wake loved him, like, profoundly in ways that could never be matched.

1:00:26Andy Greenwald:And so there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of middle-aged men crying. Yeah. In the last part, which, you know, who among us? I thought that was really, really affecting in that there's an incredible moment in the last one where one of the guys who got really hurt by Dean and broke off with him years before breaks down and basically is like calls out to someone behind the camera. And we realized that someone working on the show is one of the other guys. And he's like, can you say something? He's like, you're being a pansy. And then he comes over and they hug each other. And I'm like, what was left in this guy's wake is present.

1:00:58Sure.

1:01:00Andy Greenwald:the other thing I really wanted to say was the last 20 minutes of the third episode maybe we don't do this but if we were doing like scenes of the year or sequences of the year China yeah it is so fucking insane and so powerful and depressing and intense it basically what happens is at a very low point in his life and career before he kind of briefly resurfaced as a family guy. Yeah. And has just, he's dating someone who took her life on his property and at a very, very low point, isolated from everyone except good old Winky. Dean is offered the chance to go basically put on a show on live television.

1:01:44Andy Greenwald:Chinese state television, yeah. Chinese state television where they pay him$200 ,000 to do a big base jump and then do a, like a rope line. A wire walk, yeah. A wire walk. And he's there and the conditions aren't, it's not just that the conditions aren't ideal or are unfamiliar, it's that it's the opposite of everything he's been doing up to this point where he's surrounded and crowded and there's voices and everything that would be distracting to anyone, but particularly to someone who's like a soul surfer of this shit. And there's all this footage of like him trying to do this walk, first yelling at everyone for putting up a net, saying I'm not a circus performer, I don't do this shit with a net, take the net away so that there is a death consequence.

1:02:25Yeah, he's walking above a canyon, yeah.

1:02:27Andy Greenwald:And the day before he's practicing with a tether, which isn't super cool either because basically he's walking and then will fall and has to catch and like spins around it. Yeah. And the cameras are watching him do this and fail and fail and fail. And he doesn't make it very far at all. And the narration is telling us that like even if he made it to the middle, it would be harder than anything he'd ever done because it's wobbling because it's farther. Yeah. And then that night he yells at Winky and tells him he's worthless for not bringing, and this is a direct quote, butt weed, which is apparently the weed you bring to China by storing it within your body cavity.

1:03:02Andy Greenwald:Yes. Winky did not do that. Winky is his photographer and kind of like, you know, his guy. Kind of like older, but who loves him. And then the next day the cameras are there and there is no net and he has not been able to do this with a tether. And he does it. and at the end he collapses weeping onto these Chinese rocks and like the Chinese announcers are like, it's translated with the subtitles, are like, Mr. Potter is very emotional. This is just an incredibly visceral and horrifying encapsulation of what the world does to all of us to some small degree, but particularly to this guy who, whether simplistically or not, and clearly ruinously kind of believed in his own mythology.

1:03:51Andy Greenwald:Mythology, that's the word. And that's a great encapsulation of all of his best and worst impulses. Like there is a degree of an entertainer in him, but there is also a degree of like a solitary artist. How do you make those two things converge on Chinese state television? And how do you define your life if it's only by risking death? Yeah, and also, like, you're doing something where you're responsible for other people, and it's like if you're going to essentially, like, your wrinkle, the thing you bring to the game is I might die. Like, that's dangerous for other people, and it's also dangerous for the people who love you.

1:04:25It's an extraordinary show. It was awesome. It was awesome. I'm glad you checked it out.

1:04:28Andy Greenwald:Thank you for your recommendation. See, I'm not just a co-host. I'm also a beneficiary. Should we do a little bit of After Dark about the World Cup before we get out of here? Yes, and do you want me to save my Sugar Season 2 takes until next week? How many did you watch? I just watched one man I you know I'm just like the light just went out you know what my review is honestly I could have just you know the part you know what's worth pulling back the curtain is that Andy and I were talking about what to talk about on this episode you know Lucky the new Apple show Sugar is back and we both were like I don't want to be down on a first episode of anything.

1:05:13Andy Greenwald:Right now. It just doesn't feel good. Not after England lost. No, but I did watch the first part of the first episode of Lucky. And one of my favorite things about it is that it 1 ,000%, I have no inside knowledge, but clearly it started with a scene and then said X months earlier. But someone at Apple got the note that we're all sick of that. So it just took the Chiron away. Oh, so it's just a flashback without telling you what's happening? Yeah, but it still was like, it'll be more exciting soon. Don't worry. Yeah, but yes, we didn't want to be negative, but there's something about Sugar because it's like every few days I'm like, there's an L.A.

1:05:53Andy Greenwald:Noire show with Colin Farrell and he looks great in suits and we love him and I can't quite kick it. And my review of it ultimately is like that scene from the end of episode three of Succession season four where they're at the bar in New York City and Logan says, I love you, but you're not serious people. Yeah. That's my review of Sugar. It is such like, if we still had, like if I still was a participant in the website and was like writing things, I would probably devote way too much time writing about this show. Yeah. Because it is an exemplar of like, what are we doing? Because Colin Farrell being a private detective in LA with Apple's budget is like, let's do it.

1:06:33And shooting in LA, right? Yeah. With most of the Breaking Bad cast and production team.

1:06:39Andy Greenwald:Well, and like did so many things for season two that I'm like, that I admire. Like what they've done with the cast and like, just looking at the people they've added. Added for season two are actors we really like. Tony Dalton. Tony Dalton, Jin Ha, Sasha Kaey, Shea Wiggum. Like that's awesome. And as many people know, and I'm sorry for the spoiler, it is an L.A. noir show that has revealed that our main character is also an alien, an alien who understands the world through old films. So it does the dream on in which every so often it cuts to the movie that the scene is aping, which is cool when Fernando Morales is doing it in the pilot and then just fucking exhausting in season two, episode one, reshooting pool and it's showing scenes of like the hustler.

1:07:30Andy Greenwald:And what's truly amazing, and I do feel like people who are studying how TV gets made these days about this season, is that the opening before the first eight minutes of season two is the most impressive yada yada I've maybe ever seen. In which Sam Catlin, who used to work on the Vince Gilligan universe and worked on Severance briefly, is now fully running the show after coming on later, I think, in season one. And so the first eight minutes are like, remember all that shit about all the other aliens and his hunt for his alien sister and the alien brother who ran off with the knowledge of her existence?

1:08:03Andy Greenwald:Give me eight minutes. Give me fucking eight minutes in a hotel room in Bangkok and we'll just be a detective show, I promise. Okay. And it almost gets there so that once he's finally back and investigating like brothers, boxer brothers in Koreatown, I'm like, okay. And it leans into other things. I'm like, I don't care where this alien gets his money and he buys like Hemingway's house in the Hollywood Hills. I'm like, let's let's do that. Yeah. But because it is a contemporary TV show and it just feels this fealty to like because there must be some people who are watching it being like, look, I don't know about detectives, but I fucking love aliens.

1:08:40Andy Greenwald:there is this it just feels the need to like try to touch this third or at this point fourth rail in which case he's like at the end of this beginning of he's beginning a new investigation at the end of the episode he's like maybe more of my brothers are still out there and he sends out like an alien distress signal I'm like just nobody cares here's what sugar reminds me of yes it's not reminds me of because this never happened but it would almost be like you go to a California you know eatery yeah sure and somebody's just like here we go we've we've we've sir you you ordered and we brought you the branzino and you're like i love branzino and they're like and it's um the branzino would you would you like some parmesan with it and you're like absolutely not yeah those two things shouldn't go together and they're like we've also roasted some parmesan inside the branzino you know would you like to tell us about how would you like us to tell you about how we do things here yeah and it's we put cheese inside of a roasted fish you can't get it out you know what i mean like you can't get it out now you're now Now you're stuck with these two flavors that have been separated for a reason and are now brought together.

1:09:41And there are probably there is probably a pretty cool hour and 45 minute detective movie from 1997 about an alien. And I think it could have worked. And I admire Colin Farrell for just trying stuff. But this was always like it's in fact like you cannot separate it.

1:10:00Andy Greenwald:Yes. And if you're in it. And so I just I and for that reason, I'm out. serialization serialization intense canonical serialization is the like de facto storytelling model of our time and it is also kind of the anchor and the curse yeah because just start it over would be better just start it in the right place is so crucial but much like i am sure that there are a lot of better if he wakes up and is like god it's a weird dream about me being an alien now let's go and be a detective there's a i imagine right now there's some big brains who are dispatched to Atlanta to the set of man of tomorrow being like, so super girl rejected soundly.

1:10:40Andy Greenwald:How do we now rework this movie to pick up the threads that people liked, but not the ones they didn't like. And how do we edit Lobo out of this or reduce whatever? We're always, they're always trying to backfill and front fill at the same time instead of telling the story. And the other sin is, and I mean, no disrespect to all the lovely and talented people who must have worked on the show. If you're going to be a noir, you've got to get some crackling dialogue. You can't just cosplay it. And there's a scene in this episode where Colin Farrell, who looks the part, he's incredible, beautiful suit, beautiful car, and he's raising a cocktail in a bar and he's having some, you know, like smoky conversation with a woman and this is the dialogue.

1:11:17Andy Greenwald:Okay, unpack this for me. She says, I'm Charlotte. And he says, like the web. And she says, like the spider's web. What other web would there be? What other web is it? The worldwide fucking web? What other web? What was that? I mean, I didn't think you were going to do anything on sugar. You have like a whole presentation here. This is amazing. What's the difference? So when she says he's like a spider's web, which I guess is an effective tool to capture prey. Yeah. And she's like, no, no. I'm like the web that writes messages so a pig will live. And he's like, oh, I see how that's going to be relevant because I'm a farmer.

1:11:57Did he say that? No, but I'm trying to make it make sense. I won't be watching. Thank you. You saved me some time. I just want things to be good, man. I know, and this is a passion project for you. You know, I get it. Did you have any observations about the World Cup you'd like to share?

1:12:14Andy Greenwald:Well, I did say in our text thread yesterday with our English mate, Joe, that now I do... I feel like now I can apply for citizenship. Like I already have spent a lot of time there and do enjoy a piece of steamed fish. And then a night at the pub having a small beer. Sorry, application rejected. I'm just saying that like I did feel like this is my first full World Cup supporting the three lions. And like, I get it. I've confronted with Liam Gallagher's adage about we don't go out for one. If I'm going out, we're having hundreds. I have had drinks with Conrad Kaye. And my drinks, I've watched him have drinks.

1:12:54Andy Greenwald:You know, I confronted it every day along with my mortality and the heat death of my liver when I was there. I'm not good at that anymore. So watching England get its heart torn out on international television prepares you for your inevitable migration. No, it just made me feel like I'd earned it more because, you know, as a as a lifelong fan of my beloved Tottenham Hotspur, like, you know, we had a we had a rough spell recently, but we're poised to come back stronger than ever. Thanks to some crucial international signings. Yes, you are the sugar of being a Tottenham fan. Yeah. You're like, I'm alive on this planet.

1:13:34Yeah, I totally am. I read a lot of the athletic articles and now I'm ready to go. Well, in my defense. And then we cut to like famous Gareth Bale goals. In my defense.

1:13:47Andy Greenwald:I did. I've spent a lot of time in London recently and I've had, I have lovely friends across the aisle, both sides of the aisle. Both sides of the North London aisle. Well, and just across the Premier League and English football generally. And I must say that culturally and emotionally, I really, really connected with the absolute abject misery and self-loathing of Tottenham fans, especially over the last season. I assure you all 20 clubs feel the exact same way about themselves. But it didn't feel right. I just felt like I was vibing with these friends in particular and where they were in their relationship to sport.

1:14:23Andy Greenwald:And I also thought, I thought two things, and I'll share them, just us. Just us, Dormice. Just us alien detectives. Just us alien fucking podcasters. One was... This is where I take my skin off. underneath it is just Liverpool red it's Bill he's hosting this podcast he wouldn't put up with this shit that I did feel like some sort of perverse sports pride of like joining a team I was committing as they were getting relegated I was like this would be a good arc I'm okay with this that even if we have to fight our way back to the Premier League like that's fine so I did feel like that was a good choice that was not front running.

1:15:10Andy Greenwald:And yet secretly, my next step was realizing, you know, because we finally got rid of, you know, the money manager who was really dragging the squad down with his... Daniel Levy? Well, I knew that. I just didn't want to embarrass you. Yeah. With his, you know, his little bit of a skinflint, you know, like he wouldn't pay more than a hundred pounds for a transfer. He just drove a hard bargain. That's right. So to join a team now that they're like, I guess we better spend and buy everybody. Yes. is a really good time to become a fan. It is. If it blows up, you will be insolvent. But who among, I mean, that's all of us.

1:15:46Andy Greenwald:I also did feel like it was important to throw myself across the landmine of this club's, I would say, complicated relationship to Judaism. You know, like, and their fan base and some of the chants and some of the, I was like, I think that, I think this is a dialogue that could benefit from my presence. are you excited to engage with people about it thrilled especially online yeah I think it'll be good I think that you know if you thought TV internet was annoying wait till you fucking get a load of this but do you think generally like I mean you did share a lot of I thought quite smart thoughts about England's failed strategy yesterday but as a longer and actually credentialed football fan is there anything you'd like to share about England's flame out and my burgeoning attempt I mean every four years I'm like I'm going to get really into club I just, I want to know how, how accountable you want me to keep you.

1:16:39How do you want me to hold you accountable for this, this new hot, new passion of yours? Like, do you want me to be like, Hey man, 11am Tottenham's playing Everton.

1:16:47Andy Greenwald:Yes. On Peacock. That would be good for both of us because you hate Everton. And you'll, I don't like Everton, but like, I'm just want to know, like, is this something where you're like, you want me to, you know, measure you as you, as you go along or is it just like, let you have your experience? I mean, I think that, no, I want to be held accountable. Okay. Because I don't have children, so it's okay for me to watch stuff whenever. To be fair, maybe it's just like accrued hours, but like so far you haven't questioned my 76ers fandom bona fides, even though I don't really watch the games. Well, I don't really think you super love watching sports.

1:17:22I think they stress you out. I think you love following sports.

1:17:25Andy Greenwald:I have, but yeah, well, the World Cup, Maybe because of the lack of like decades of deep emotional parasocial fuckery has just been a pure joy. And you've never come out one side or the other on the Falklands either. Well, that's right. Let the voters of Maine decide that one too. That's right. Throw that one on the fire for them. I would like to be held accountable. I am excited. Every four years I do say some version of like now is the time to just really become a dedicated Premier League fan. And then I run up against the realities of life and time zones. but I think I'm ready. I'll say this about yesterday's match.

1:17:59Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Fuck. Yeah, it sucked. Also, when Lataral Martinez scored the winner, the reaction of the Argentinian players is the plunger going into the vein. That is what it is all about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a celebration, but it's like a connection with their fans and it's also like an act that is unique in sports, I think. Like scoring a goal for your national team to win a match of that consequence. Yeah. It blows my mind every time it happens and it happens every, you know, a couple months, every couple of years, like whatever, in a Premier League match, in a Champions League match, you'll see something and you're just like, holy fucking shit, I can't believe.

1:18:46Like 80 ,000 people are having like an absolute, like out of body experience the guys on the field are the same people as the people in the stands like it just feels like that is that is something that i chase all the time with this sport it's why i will never quit it and it's why for as much of like you know a secondary market ticket hiking you know bullshit festival that you could see the world cup as it's still like unlike anything else and i was talking to ian about this when i was just like you know we were we were talking about our buddies at Bad Brother and Nick at the bar who is in Philadelphia during the group stages was like dude just like some nights like 25 Ecuadorians would just come and hang out you know it's like that never happens that's not there's not like a normal experience where people travel like this and people go to support their countries and their and their sides like this and it's it's really astonishing so on the one hand like while I uh don't love that Argentine team like watching them win in some way was like why i also love the sport yes the other object of fascination about yesterday is that they have had i've watched multiple generations at this point of the england national team yeah and several managers and there is something so deeply interesting about whether or not there is like an inherent characteristic in the english football players specifically that is like, I can't really, I can't imagine a success too big.

1:20:17You know, like whether they, whether they actually do start freaking out if, if it looks

1:20:24Andy Greenwald:like they're going to win. It looks like they're going to win. Yeah. Yeah. And in some ways they would have been better off going down one, nothing, you know? Yeah. But that fits the narrative because they could have just been like classic international underdogs. We're going out on our shields and we're going to play, play football and we're going to run at these guys and we're going to, we're going to go for it, you know? and instead they kind of accidentally ceded that role to the Argentinians. It was a weird match, weird first half, people kicking the shit out of each other and then just like bang, bang, bang and it's over.

1:20:53I was like, oh, that was a month. And I think I have not, I certainly have not earned my place at the commentators table,

1:21:01Andy Greenwald:but I think even I shot a WhatsApp being like... This seems like the wrong strategy. Do you think they should play offense? You don't score one touchdown and go, okay, prevent defense. I mean, there are teams that have done that. Sure, yeah. But it doesn't seem like a winning strategy. What would your, not to shine too bright a light on it, but what do you think your father would have thought about England going to defeat due to the strategical maneuverings of a German? I don't want to comment on how my father would have felt about that. That specific nation? Yeah, I mean, who knows? Maybe he would have evolved a lot in the last 10 years.

1:21:37Andy Greenwald:Old wounds would have healed. Yeah, you know, like after Brexit, he would have been like, no, we're all part of one European family. But like, I think he had some resentment for the Germans. Sure. Earned, yeah. For his time. Yeah. The world has moved on. But now, speaking of moving on, you know, that is why I reclaim my Spanish heritage. Because as a fan of Pedro Poro, who, of course, has played right back for my beloved Spurs since 2022. I want him to succeed. Is that in your notes app? No, that's just in my brain app. Yeah. That's something I've known for, I want to say, days. Maybe hours. Yeah.

1:22:14Andy Greenwald:And it just feels good to be at least rooting for one of my guys, you know, in the final. I'm picking Spain for the final. Even though, I believe McAllister plays for Liverpool, right? That's okay. Victor Munoz, a winger that Liverpool just bought, is a Spanish player. I know. Tell the camera. I know. Thank you to Kai, Kaya, and Sarah for recording us, producing us, filming us today. Making us look good. Making us look great. And we'll be back on Monday. Hot D. Sure. What else? Maybe you'll have seen The Odyssey. Who knows? I would like to. But IMAX tickets, hard to get. I have a phone bootleg you can just check out.

1:22:56Andy Greenwald:If I watch The Odyssey on iraqgoals.com this weekend on my phone. Dot net. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Well, it just really blew up that other website. I'm sure it's going to be fine. Good luck to your browser. You guys have a great weekend.