The ‘Euphoria’ S3 Trailer, ‘Hijack’ and ‘The Night Manager’ Return, and ‘The Pitt’ S2E2

20:21Andy Greenwald:It can go bad in a hurry. You know? Yeah. Wow. So that was fun. What a monster. I would describe that as a show that my wife and I are trying to watch between the hour of 10 and 11 p.m. You're right. And it is having an adverse effect on my sleep cycle. Because of all the drugs you're testing. Yes, we're also taking it. We're rolling. The whole time. And Classic Phoebe's like, well, good night. And you're like, no, you are not committing to the bit. In the same way that if you watch Top Chef, you get hungry. So sorry, I guess I should have said spoilers. Kyra, are you watching the show? Are you up on this?

20:52Andy Greenwald:I'm only halfway through the first season of the show. But I'm... You just spoiled it. That's fine. I think Kyra has a good attitude about spoilers. I think I could see where it's going, too. This is not shocking. What is his, is he just like staring at her during this? He has a thing where he doesn't make direct eye contact a lot. So he'll be like, you have to do this. You have to do this. And it's like, it's an effective show. Wow. It's like the darkest soap I think I've ever watched in some ways. But I don't even mean to demean it by calling it a soap. I mean, it's actually, I think it's pretty good.

21:29I will say.

21:30Andy Greenwald:I'm not in my top 10. I will say, and in the spirit of radical honesty and transparency, I have never... You've been on ecstasy this entire podcast. Last week. I have never pocketed drugs and allowed other people to go on a journey. But I have been guilty of, let's get one more. Good night. You do that. I know. I know. I feel like it's a little barbed and we should just put it on the table. When we were in London for Thirsty Thursday, you were pretty good that night, actually. Yes. It was just me and Phoebe were like, we're about to light this candle. And you were just like, I'm not going to sleep.

22:06Andy Greenwald:I misunderstood. I think we had a fun. First of all, I just think that when we were all out in London, there was just a misunderstanding of the night's program. You know what I mean? Like, I thought it was a one act play. Yeah. And you were like, no, no, this is Tom Stoppard's Coast of Utopia. And we will be exploring the history of Russian socialism until dawn. Yeah. That was the only difference. Yeah. I think we parted as friends. That's how you wind up eating like a ham bagel at a football bar. That felt vaguely anti-Semitic. No, I swear to God. Well, you know, I know you read this book, so it's probably on top of your mind.

22:40It just brought me back. I hope that was educational for people. I just wanted to share what's happening on TV. That was wild what's happening on TV.

22:47Andy Greenwald:Because when you, I do appreciate it also in a service-y way, because when you're like, what channel is that show on? Hulu. I really thought that it was like, oh, it's like Summer I Turned Pretty. And I was like, I bet my kids are going to start watching this one soon. And now I know what to specifically block. Yes. On their devices. If they're ever like, I'm into Grace Van Patten, I want to watch Tell Me Lies. Be like, you have to wait 22 years before you can watch that. At least. Yes. At least. Talk to Uncle Chris. One of the problems that I've been having this week is the multi-episode release that's happening for a bunch of seasons that are either returning or whatever.

23:24so we're gonna hit the first episode of Hijacked the first episode of Night Manager

23:29Andy Greenwald:and there's multiple Night Managers up which I did not get through I've watched like one and a half I did not get to Ponies so I'll have to do that'll be your tell me lies okay and then obviously we can talk about The Pit now if you'd like to did I mention to you that I watch Ponies early to be prepared for this pod did that come up you did you did but I also have like a mental excel sheet of what you haven't watched. You know what I mean? And where I'm like, I know you have the trailer. I know you have that screener. You could knock this out, but you didn't. First of all, I don't always have the screeners these days.

24:02Andy Greenwald:They go for you. They know who's persuadable. Yeah. You know what I mean? They've got real reticent over the last decade. Old Gene Shalit here. I loved content. In every relationship, there's a Sidney Sweeney and a Jacob Elordi. You know what I mean? That's all I'm saying. It's just the natural way of things. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like analyzing plot twists, TaxAct guides you step-by-step to make sure you get your maximum refund. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts, or let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with.

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25:34Hi everyone, I'm Charlie Cox. Join us on Disney Plus as we talk with the cast and crew of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again.

25:40Andy Greenwald:What haven't you gotten to do as Daredevil? Being the Avengers. Charlie and Vincent came to play. I get emotional when I think about it. One of the great finales of any episode we've ever done. We are going to play Truth or Daredevil. What? Oh, boy. Fantastic. You guys go hard, man. Daredevil Born Again, official podcast, Tuesdays. And stream season two of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again on Disney+. Do you want to do our new shows first or the pit first? Kai, as our producer, do you think we should run through new shows first? I think that makes sense. Yeah, let's do that. Let's see if The Pit, because honestly, with The Pit, it's more a play-by-play of people getting their shoulders reattached.

26:20Andy Greenwald:Sure thing. Let's talk Hijack first, then, and then we'll talk to Spice. Hijack is a show that Annie and I were delighted by in its first season. I think it really knew the assignment. Idris Elba is one of the most compulsively watchable actors we have. He completely understood that he was entering his Liam Neeson era. I have to admit, I almost found the 10-year gap in Night Manager episodes to be less confusing than the way that Hijack Season 2 started. Which is not to say that I didn't enjoy myself, but I was just like, truly, what the fuck is happening? Not just that. And I appreciate you saying this.

27:03Andy Greenwald:I think that as we sundown, it's nice to do it together. Because I genuinely have no memory of this show or of the Night Manager. And I did, I can't tell yet, because I've only watched one season two episode of Hijack. I have a conspiracy theory about this. I'm ready to hear it. But I can't tell yet if it was genius or troubling that the quite long previously on Hijack left me more confused. Yes. Because I kind of hoped, and maybe this is a sign that it doesn't matter, which, again, I'm kind of into. but I thought that the previously on hijack wouldn't really just be about this is Sam Nelson once he was on a hijacked plane and it was kind of sick.

27:42Andy Greenwald:I thought it would be like, ah, here's the real conspiracy behind the spate of hijackings targeting Idris Elba. Sure. Leading me into the larger plot points of season two. That was not the case. That was not the case of the trailer. Well, it just seems like a lot has transpired in between the two seasons that is yet to be revealed on season two. It's true, we don't really know where we're meeting. Which is acceptable. My relationship to Hijack is not much different than my relationship to Speed, the movie. The drug. Because I was just like, here's a cool character who's real good at negotiating, whatever, you know, and the whole thing is just like his bad luck, he's going to be on a train that gets hijacked.

28:26And I was very much here for it. Yes, I agree. I agree with you that the reminders of the Europe-wide criminal conspiracy of, I can't remember what those guys do. I honestly thought all of those dudes kind of offed each other at the end of season one. And I'm starting to worry that streamers are making their follow-up seasons so complicated and so delayed that they are forcing people to re-watch things, thus spending more time on platform.

28:57Andy Greenwald:Oh, it's an interesting conspiracy theory. Because Hijack immediately launched to the top of the Apple charts. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure. Look, I will also just say one thing with this is that the twist at the end of the first episode of Hijack is revealed in the trailer. Yeah. So you are essentially sitting there for 44 minutes to achieve what they already told you was going to happen. It was quite apparent, I thought. I didn't feel particularly... Well, his behavior is quite odd. It is. You know, he's such a warm man. Usually. And usually if you get buttonholed by someone on a German subway, you would definitely give them a job immediately.

29:31Andy Greenwald:Funny story about the German subway. Wait, I just, we got to give Effinger's corner here. How are you going to connect it? I'm just saying it was remarkable and I was just thinking of how poor Lottie Effinger would think about her beloved Berlin, seeing how transformed it is, but also about the preponderance of English. Sure. You know. Yeah, I do find that, I think that English is permeated a lot For sure. Yeah. Way more than like when I was like first in Europe in the late 90s. And it was like, once you got out of London, you're on your own. Not London, but like once you got out of England and Ireland.

30:08Andy Greenwald:And our listeners who have traveled to do, honestly, the last remaining bastion of Western democracy recently could tell us, like on the U-Bond, do they just lead with English announcements at this point? Or do they do both? But because they seem to only showcase the English announcements on the show. I broadly think that hijack was at its best when it was oh sick Idris Elba is on this plane that's getting hijacked. And there was a freedom to that. And I don't really care too much about the larger conspiracy. And I find it quite opaque, in fact, leading into this season. It's been one episode.

30:48I'm sure they will hold our hand and bring us into this. Marth from Dark, our beloved Dark on Netflix. You could say Martha. We're American. She plays the, who's the actor? Lisa Vicari.

31:00Andy Greenwald:I was very happy to see her. She plays the, I don't know, train control center operator. Yeah, she's the, there's a taking of Pelham 123 vibe where she's like, and again, I respect the show when it plays the hits. Like she's leaving, she does night shift and her colleague is like, Can you stay for another hour? We'll just say for an hour, nothing ever happens on that train line. Right. We're like, oh damn, here we go again. And so we'll find out more about this, but there is two or three other subplots. Nelson, Sam Nelson, Idris Elba's character, and I guess I should just say, obviously, spoilers for all of this, but if you've seen the trailer, you'll know that this particular hijacking is perpetrated by Sam, at least initially, and that it looks like he is under the same pressures that some other characters in the first season were, where it's like, you can't trust anybody because this criminal organization is blackmailed everyone on the plane, and it seems like maybe on the train as well.

32:03So I don't know really what the whole guy with the backpack thing was about in the first episode.

32:09Andy Greenwald:Well, it appeared to be a misdirect for everyone because Sam, we know, is vigilant. We know that he is not really a keep to himself kind of guy. He helps people on the escalator early on. You know, he helps the guy with the stroller. So we know that he's kind of, he likes to mix it up. He likes to get involved. So it is not entirely out of character for him to notice a man with a backpack and profile him basically and be like, this is sketchy. And it's revealed at the end of the episode that he did that solely to get the cops off the train. That's right. That's right. So kudos to Sam. Also, his wife is still in the mix, but is now...

32:46Andy Greenwald:This is one of the subplots. It's a sad anniversary. Has something happened to their son? Has something happened to their marriage? We don't know. Well, it's his ex-wife. Yes, he was ex in the first season, but they shared a son. Did the boyfriend who was hanging around that house, did he get got in the first season? No, I think he was just like, who is your ex-husband anyway? And they were working together on the ground. Wasn't he like running around? He was running the field, and that mom went into traffic. Yeah. Do you want me to recount other things that were in the previously on that I remember?

33:11Andy Greenwald:It doesn't matter. She's there. She's in a cabin. She's like trying to get away from it all, and then there's a whole thing happening at the British Embassy with someone who's interviewing or talking to somebody at the Justice Department of Germany. I think they have one of those. They do have one of those. I know, I'm saying they got one about this criminal organization. So a lot of stuff yet to happen and a lot of buildup to get to this twist at the end of the episode that everybody already knew, which is that Sam is now, he is the captain now. Yeah. Yeah. I have to say I was not particularly optimistic after this first episode.

33:51Okay.

33:52Andy Greenwald:I found the look of it in the subways a little dark and claustrophobic. Is that what you thought? I did. Okay. I did. I just didn't find... And I thought the cleverness of the twist was too heavily... They were too heavily invested in that. Yeah. Like that it was all, the entire shape of the episode was built towards. Yes. Aha. So. It's 40 minutes to get 30 seconds. Yeah. And I'm willing to see what happens next. I do note, and I don't know anything about, truly nothing about the backstory or the creation of the show. It just appeared in our lives like two years ago at a time we were quite ready for it.

34:31Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I think it was a gear shift. It was a nice tonal. Yeah. Like, it was a nice like digestif. It was fun. Yeah. In a way that because it felt free of heavy backstory or heavy intention or ambition, honestly, outside of the desire to entertain in an old school way, which I appreciate. The show was created by George K. and Jim Field Smith. It appears that George K. is no longer involved in the show. He's gone on to other stuff. Yeah, he's the writer. So the director, Jim Field Smith, has returned. And at least for the first episode, Guy Bolton has written this episode. So again, I'm not saying that like one man was the real captain of Hijack.

35:08Andy Greenwald:It is just a different, it's a different operation. This is also probably a case where this would have made an incredible movie. You know, like Hijack would have been an incredible movie. It was cool to spend six hours doing it, but you could have done it in two. And creating a, you know, like basically the latticework of the world building that they have to do now might take a little bit of labor. I also don't find Subways nearly as like terrifying as being stuck in an airplane. That one kid was not doing well. He shouldn't have got on the subway. He should have had self-determination. You think?

35:43Yeah. Wow. He could have just been like, I have an allergy to subways.

35:46Andy Greenwald:Well, he could have walked to Unter den Linden, which is one of the classic old boulevards of Berlin. Culturally, it's changed over time, but it is still... You know, it's funny that you mention the look of Hijack because I think, in my mind, Night Manager had been this deeply lush, exotic beautifully shot show and I found myself really bumping against some of the visual stuff in the second season the first episode of the second season like it just felt like it looked like Jack Ryan to me well it's an Amazon show now I mean I would say the first season again 10 years ago very unclear how much of it I watched and I'm not bragging like I'm a little concerned Elizabeth DeBecky is on it Yes, and I remembered that much like Burn Notice was a show about sunglasses, Night Manager season one was a show about linen shirts.

36:41Andy Greenwald:Yeah, for some of it, yeah. For quite a bit of it. Yeah. So you felt... All right, I don't... Are we pivoting? Are we talking Night Manager? I think we can. I mean, did you have other hijack notes you wanted to share? No. Okay. Do you feel committed to seeing Sam's project through? I think I'm down for another episode, but it's like we said, it's an incredibly busy time, so... No, so it might not make the cut. I did not have an issue with the direction, although I think, you know, Suzanne Beer directed the first series. She's a very talented director. Georgie Banks-Davies has done really good work.

37:17Andy Greenwald:She did I Hate Susie. I love Susie. What's the name of that show? I Hate Susie. Yeah. She's done the second season. For me, it wasn't even the visuals. I think, and I do want to talk about the show in tandem with Ponies in a minute, but we'll just talk about it specifically to begin with. This is a very tricky thing because The Night Manager is adapted from the John Le Carre novel. And in fact, I didn't remember this at all, but the great man himself, David Cornwell, appeared in the series because he was still alive then. He did, yes. He just had a little cameo at a restaurant. But it was kind of - Is it Michael Caine at the end of Dark Knight Rises?

37:50Andy Greenwald:Nod. Feel free to continue this without me, boys. The... It was, you know, an exemplar of this project by John Le Carre's sons. to take the IP, the legacy, and spin it into this new era. Which is a project that is still ongoing. Very much so. I think we discussed The Spy Who Came In From The Cold, and that would be the start of a series of smiley... Yeah, and just last year, there was the book that his son, Nick, wrote. He wrote a John LeCarré novel, basically, a new smiley novel. So they are continuing the family brand. But making a second season of this is uncharted territory because there was no sequel to the book.

38:35And there is going to be a third season.

38:37Andy Greenwald:Right. And when Amazon picked it up from, I think it was an AMC co-production originally, it was picked up for two seasons. And visually, I think what you're saying about the show visually is just generally what I felt about the show in general, which is, this is not, it's not just, you're not your father's John le Carré. It's not just not our John le Carré. I don't think it's really John le Carré. Because everything is so, hyper sexy, hyper literal, and just kind of clunky, you know? And I want you, because you have spent more time in the Le Carre-verse than I have. You've read more of the books than you care.

39:13Andy Greenwald:I think you are more invested in the project, largely, than I might be. But it did not have any of the great man's signature wit. Yeah. Visually or tonally. One thing that I associate with Le Carre, I'm sure people who have also read his books might fight me on this, is a degree of detachment from the action that is happening. I mean, this is more of... We should catch people up, too. I'm sorry. I jumped past the specifics. Of what? But go ahead. Finish your thought. Of the show itself. Yeah, but finish the thought. Yeah, well, I'll try and explain that by saying, you know, in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, there's very little, quote-unquote, action in the traditional sense.

39:57I mean, there's a shooting, there's a border crossing, But there's really it's more about following people, reading about people, searching for people and understanding the ultimate flaw of people. Yeah, and when people describe them as like Cold War novels, I think that it downplays the fact that it's about people in rooms making decisions in a battle of wit and will, and not really about moving nuclear weapons off one coast or another or showdowns or anything like that. And so to have a protagonist in, he's calling himself Alex in this season of the show, but is Jonathan in the first season.

40:43Tom Hiddleston. Tom Hiddleston's character, who we were introduced to as a night manager at a hotel in Cairo in the first season, who is reluctantly pulled into the world of espionage by Olivia Colman's Angela character and Hugh Laurie's Richard character, Richard Roper. Richard Roper?

41:05Andy Greenwald:It does sound like the guy who replaced Siskel, doesn't it? Is it Richard Roper? I believe it's Richard Roper. In any case. It is. the introduction to him in the second season is way closer to super spy and I don't care what you tell me I must get to the truth like and we have to set up an operation even though that's not what you people do and like it's just it just kind of feels a little bit more honestly like the Krasinski iteration of Jack Ryan in that show this is a successfully executed contemporary thriller series. For all the good that entails, and I thought it looked pretty good. I think the cast is remarkable, and we'll talk about that in a second.

41:51Andy Greenwald:It hit familiar notes, and we like those notes. We like the song. That's fine. But I think looking at it through the lens of La Cagli kind of bummed me out, because what I like about those books is that, as you said, the context is really the framing for deeply interesting and universally relevant psychological explorations of what it means to be a person in a morally complex universe. This is a show where a new character is introduced as being the true disciple of Thanos. I mean, Richard Roper. Right. Where the big discovery is a series of printed, no, is a downloaded JPEGs in which someone has with a Sharpie circled people.

42:32Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And written important questions about who they might be next to them. Like that is not particularly complex spy craft. it's also having a hard time, like a lot of spy shows are, updating for the modern world. One of the fun things about the Le Carre spycraft, Cold War spycraft that we love is a world of personal relationships and dead drops. Analog spycraft. Analog spycraft. This is a lot of surveillance and a lot of like, well, we have a microphone that can listen across the park. And we have, his job is no longer, he is a night manager now for all of London's night, where he has access to CCTV cameras seemingly everywhere to follow all bad guys, which, you know, not to bring it up again, but one of the reasons why I think we were shouting out Oliver Harris's spy novels last fall is because he seems to be, to me, he is the true disciple of John le Carré in the sense that he's like, okay, in a world where you can do deep fakes of everyone and you can have a fire hose of all data, what does it mean to be a spy?

43:34Andy Greenwald:Whereas this is just like, we're still doing it in the kind of politesse, like the, you know, version of the past, but like now we have microphones that can record anything and you can clean up dog barking to hear people confess their crimes. That was kind of a bummer to me. And also just like the natural drift in contemporary television to be like, well, it's going to end with a big fucking explosion. Yeah. So the season seems like it's going to center around Columbia and legal arms shipments to Columbia. Which I didn't remember. Apparently, Latin America played a bigger role in the book The Night Manager, and that was transposed to the Middle East.

44:09Andy Greenwald:So in a way, they are reclaiming some of the original. And that's smart adaptation. And I will also say Diego Calva, quite good in Babylon. I haven't seen him since then in anything that I remember and has definitely an edge to him in this second season. So I think as the show maybe centers him a little bit more, it'll get on track. Camilla Marone's also really good, and she was fantastic in Daisy Jones in The Six. She was. And she is in this season. And so I will say this. I didn't love the first episode. It was just good enough that I will probably watch all of it. The reason I want... I appreciate your honesty.

44:43Andy Greenwald:The reason I want to talk about it in companionship to Ponies, which is the Peacock show that premiered this week, which is also a... It actually is a Cold War spy thriller, a little bit more comic. It's created by David Iserson and Susanna Fogel, who've worked together before on... I forget, there was the comedy spy movie that they made. This is a world that they are fans of and that they like quite a bit. It stars Emilia Clarke from Game of Thrones and Hayley Lou Richardson, who people know best probably from White Lotus Season 2, as ponies, persons of no interest. They are the spouses of CIA, American CIA operatives in Moscow in the 1970s.

45:24Andy Greenwald:I will speak specifically to that show in a second. But watching these two shows in tandem in a week that they were both released really reminded me of something that is, you know I think front of mind for a lot of Americans these days wealth inequality um it is a very very strange moment uh in television when if you subscribe to multiple services these all come through the same tube but they could not be more different in terms of like their in terms of their budget and in terms of their execution I think I pony like I liked ponies more than night manager I'm not completely sold on it yet but like you I will like to watch more to see how it develops.

46:04Andy Greenwald:I like the originality of the idea. I like the slightly unconventional comic spin of the show and the different way into more established genre terrain. But The Night Manager looks like a billion bucks. The Night Manager is filming on location in London and in Columbia. The Night Manager has a cast that goes so deep that you can have Olivia Colman and Noah, are we saying Jupe or Jupe? I've never actually said his name out loud. I think it's Jupe. Indira Varma is in this. Theer of Arma, up and down the cast list is incredibly impressive. And when you, Kirby Howell-Baptiste, like when you see these people show up in these supporting roles, like Kirby as Tom Hiddleston's therapist, it elevates the floor of the experience and I think provides like a patina of class and prestige to something that it might not otherwise get.

46:59Andy Greenwald:But I have no, I intend no disrespect or slight to the hardworking cast and crew of Ponies, which filmed on location in Budapest, which does a pretty credible job, I think, having been and having not actually been to 1970s Moscow. Budapest, which recently was Washington, D.C. for Death by Lighting. So, yes. Yeah. And where the tax breaks remain phenomenal from what I understand. the cast list is Emilia Clarke Haley Lou Richardson and then Adrian Lester who's a great veteran British actor of stage and screen who basically is a that guy from Primary Colors which was his first movie up to like you have seen him okay and he's great in this as well as he always is to that's basically it now I'm not diminishing the contributions of the other actors in the show many of whom might become stars sure but they aren't and you feel it and I do think that that affects our engagement with stuff sometimes.

47:53Andy Greenwald:You know, like it's telling us what it is and what it can be. And it feels like it comes with a bit of a ceiling. Now, I don't want, I didn't want to lead with that aspect of the conversation because I don't want to discourage people from watching it. I think it's worth having to talk about though because I haven't watched Ponies yet. I will check it out. I thought what your critique or your observation was very interesting because, you know, we've gotten this preponderance of espionage shows. There's clearly like a huge growing audience for these series. I think that there's lots of different ways to execute them.

48:26It seems like the night manager is leaning into the globetrotting international man of mystery side of things. There's also, and we talked about this when Andor was on this show that's on Amazon Prime now, but it's from the early 1980s called Sandbaggers. And Sandbaggers is largely shot, it was a British TV show, about UK spies, and it was largely shot on sound stages that you can tell are sound stages. And it looks like Fawlty Towers. I mean, it looks like a 1980s British TV show. And yet the writing is at a level that it exudes verisimilitude even if it doesn't go to the far-flung places that these agents are being sent routinely.

49:11You can do a show that doesn't have a lot of money at its disposal, and you can think of really creative ways to kind of color in the outside of the lines that are shown on the TV show and give people a sense. Like, I think that we underestimate contemporary viewers' ability to imagine what has just happened without showing us kind of a fake CGI version of it. I don't know what it is about ponies that looks cheaper. It doesn't...

49:41Andy Greenwald:Well, I mean, you'll watch it and report back. I think that I'm not saying that ponies would be improved by access to the same budget as Night Manager. I'm saying it was an interesting exercise to watch them both in roughly the same time period and track my reactions to them. Now, I do think, again, not speaking to the specific development path of either of these projects because I don't know them. But one of the challenges of this era, I think, is, you know, beautiful ideas springing from the minds of writers and producers. There's, they are free, they are unfettered, they are fully realized when they exist only on the page.

50:15Andy Greenwald:And then they are taken to market and they are offered to, you know, the dwindling number of buyers left in this town. The version of that beautiful idea that is ultimately, you know, dreams come true and it is executed on Paramount Plus is different than if it is executed on AMC or on Starz. That isn't new information, but as all of these people are still at least pretending to compete with each other when in fact they actually can't, the arms race has been decided and Apple, Amazon, and Netflix won with HBO, you know, still trying to punch above its weight here or just ultimately becoming Netflix at this point.

50:48Um, it's, it's

50:50Andy Greenwald:tricky. And I think that like, if I could speak from personal, uh, I try not to do this too often, but like when I think about my experience running prior patch, like the biggest mistake that I, there were many, but the biggest mistake that I think for, just so we are clear, this is before you read Evingers. I would have re-imagined the entire piece as a decades-long exploration of a single Jewish family. Yes. So, okay, so that's mistake 1A. But mistake 1B for sure was inexperience in terms of, I had wonderful development partners and network partners who were encouraging me to think big, make the biggest show you can.

51:28Andy Greenwald:And one of the big thoughts that I had was a certain episode would be an all-out military assault on a mansion, on a compound. Right. Fictionally, it was Albuquerque, but it was in Texas. And I loved the fun we were having writing an action movie for that episode. And it actually took way too long for the rubber to meet the road of, we actually have the same budget as like, not even like suits, like Royal Pains. You know, like Blue Skies era stuff. And I worked with a brilliant crew who did their best, but it starts getting chipped away. Like, well, instead of like a whole crew of people, you know, like trying to climb a wall with grappling hooks, what if we just built one three-foot wall and put one guy over it?

52:10Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And you're like, okay, the whole episode would have been better if it had been written from the perspective of the people inside the house while things are exploding. Yes. So it's a play, not a blockbuster film. That's the kind of decision-making that has happened at the beginning. And I think that that would have resulted in a better episode of television than if you have like, we're going to make the most, you know, mind-expanding, globetrotting spy series, but we're going to have to do it on this soundstage in Budapest. Now, Ponies doesn't deserve this to be its logline or its review from this podcast.

52:44Andy Greenwald:It is vibrant, it is fun, it is irreverent, and it is not trying to be Jack Ryan. Yeah. And I respect the hell out of that. And once the premise of the pilot is dispatched with, which is these two mismatched women both suffer a loss and then decide to solve the crime themselves within the cover of the State Department and the CIA. And there's a guy playing George Bush who was the head of the CIA in the 70s. So it's a little winking, a little tongue in cheek. You're off to the races. And I'm really curious to see the people behind this show, see what story they want to tell with it. Yes. It's a premise pilot through and through.

53:20Andy Greenwald:So it's not a fair argument for that. But one thing that we all have to think about in this industry, including executives, It's like, it's all being shoved into the same trough. And how are we receiving it? I'll give you another example of kind of what you're talking about is the upcoming Night of the Seven Kingdoms on HBO. Coming this Sunday. Which, you know, there's a big George R. R. Martin interview and Hollywood Reporter today where he speaks about his, frankly, the non-existent relationship that he has with Ryan Condal, who's running House of the Dragon. And he talks a little bit about the development process of Seven Kingdoms and how HBO came to him looking for something that wouldn't cost$20 million an episode to make.

54:00And I'm not going to give away anything about the series or about the episodes other than to say, I think this show is fantastic and I love it. And it's largely set in a field. One sort of discrete area. And it's rather than go wide, they go deep. Which is, for as many locations as I think early Thrones had, it was still more about what was happening in front of the camera and not the the sort of scope of the camera yeah and obviously that show is always going to have to grapple with dragons and armies and you know it didn't start there it didn't start there um i think there's a lot to to be learned from this and i think there's it's it's a good lesson to think about these things in a from a creative standpoint rather than a restrictive budgetary standpoint and be like Like, okay, like, realistically, what can we do here that is not going to, like, go fully into the red, but is the best thing for this show, given how much money we have to spend on it?

55:01Because I think, honestly, those restrictions, I would rather see something that felt like a little bit, like you're saying, like, you'd rather have the assault taking place from the perspective of the people being assaulted inside the house and do a lot of stuff with sound and light, maybe, than not get the military assault that you kind of were hoping for.

55:22Andy Greenwald:You can tell, like, you know, there's a reason why Taylor Sheridan has access to all the actual, like, Black Hawk helicopters, not currently. Yeah, but I mean, it sounds like Paramount's asking him to bring the budget down, too, you know? And I think that I'm very curious to see the next season of Lioness and to see how many helicopter assaults they have. Well, I don't think they need them, because the real battleground in America is on college campuses, and at least Taylor has reminded us of that. But yeah, it's also this larger point that I was trying to articulate is also a reason why, and I'm 100 % realized that I'm the guy in the hot dog suit wondering who's telling you to do this.

56:00Andy Greenwald:It is worth watching past the pilot of a lot of these shows because pilots are created in one iteration of a creative existence and often series are written in another. Well, that's why I think I'm going to continue with both Night Manager and Hijack to see if those first episodes felt like they were doing a lot of like, remember last season or this show's different now, you better get ready. So I'm excited for checking out the next episodes and I will check out Ponies. Let's talk about a show that we have far fewer reservations about, which is The Pit. This was the 8 a.m. hour and my wife asked me this.

56:39Did we ask Casey Boyce when he was last on this show whether the pit was going to continue to be as gross as it has been in the past? So, no. Did he talk about this? What was interesting... She's like, I thought Casey Bloys said that this show wouldn't be so fucking gross.

56:56Andy Greenwald:First of all, it sounds like she did not want this particular visit to the Bone Temple. It was actually the arm that bothered her. No, there was a bone there too. And the maggots. I see. So the Boner Temple was okay. Honestly, she was like, this is pretty funny. It was more the other stuff. Let's talk about that. We, again, couldn't be us. But sometimes I do think that we become quite entranced with our own narratives. And, okay, let me rephrase. I often become very enamored of my own narratives. And like Paul Effinger, just blindly trusting in the good faith of the German people, he just figured they would work it out.

57:38Andy Greenwald:And surely he would be able to keep the factory, even as the National Socialists rose to power in the 1930s. I, multiple times last year, just pulled out the old chestnut of, you know, we misunderstood the Pitts Project. That we thought with our crude lizard brains that it would really just be like ER, but NC-17 ER. And it would be more gnarly because that's what they can do on HBO. And cliffhangers, but you could start next one. And it did that, but in my memory of the first season, like the quiet heroism of the characters and the depth of the characters themselves just quickly became the story.

58:17Andy Greenwald:And while there were occasional detours into grosser parts of the anatomy, like it really was building a different sort of show and it didn't need that. And I think we were both like, ah, the parlor tricks of early the pit can be disposed of. That was not the case with this episode. So I guess it was maybe a necessary corrective that it was going to continue its commitment to both. Yeah, I mean... This did feel more extreme than previous, the last few run of episodes going back to the previous season. I will say that I have found there to be a heightened sense of humor in this season. There has been more banter.

58:51Andy Greenwald:Like, there's been actually more space for the characters to go bang, bang, bang. Well, extra joke on top. Well, it's like when Dana warns off Robbie's new girlfriend. Seems like it. Seems like it. and she's like, I'm a big girl. And then Dana's like, okay, big girl. Like, they're just, they're like, they know now Dana's a thing and we're going to give Dana like a couple of lines per episode that are like, oh yeah, that's mother. The dude suffering from priapism, I believe was the term, says that, you know, he says, well, you know, it was a special night with my wife and he says, is this a big one?

59:29Right.

59:30Andy Greenwald:I mean the anniversary. Right. Yeah, there's a little more room for that. Yeah. Before whatever the pit fest that happens this season emerges. Well, they are certainly signaling that. And I admire our show for being like, we can talk about, we've just been talking about industry in this fashion, like a show that's like, we have this frame, but like a lot of different things can come in. And clearly like they're setting up Dr. Al Hashimi as somebody who's trying to modernize and digitize the emergency room. It's the classic clash between just AI and your gut. Yeah. These machines know better than us.

1:00:07It's come up a couple of times. Instinct and gut versus having our computer overlords take over and accidentally prescribe the wrong medication.

1:00:16Andy Greenwald:It's actually an interesting capsule of how we approach this podcast. And the trailer suggests that this season will feature a computer blackout, which I think will test. You've really been studying the trailers. I thought this is usually you're like, I'm good. I don't need the trailers. I guess I just saw a pit trailer. I don't know. I mean, I don't know what to tell you. Okay. You just seem to know a lot more than I do. So, yeah, I found the season to be funny so far. I think that the story device of this is Robbie's last day for a while is good because it kind of gives his character a little bit of senioritis.

1:00:56Not that he's taking any time off of the intensity of his work, but that he is kind of like, yes, you can follow me, and you guys just settle this among yourselves. What do you think of the new recruits as they get more and more screen time?

1:01:12Andy Greenwald:I just want one last note about the visual stuff. Oh, yeah, sure. I have never been as certain of anything in my many, many years on this earth as I was that there would be maggots under that cast. Well, I mean, whatever it was going to be, I was like, it can't be mice again. After your experience in Roxbury in 1998? No, because the guy had rats in his overcoat last year. Yeah. So I was like, they got to up the ante here. Yeah, I didn't know. Did you see that that guy, that's Skinny Pete from Breaking Bad? I didn't know that. It's really like quite a bookended career, I would say. He's doing great.

1:01:45I wonder if he's going to be hanging out for a while then.

1:01:47Andy Greenwald:Seems like it. Yeah. The new recruits. And it's also the guy from House of Cards who's like, Yes, that's who that guy is. I am going to be your Stephen Miller, right? Yes, and then he's the one who is seemingly resetting a little bit every time. Yeah, every time they talk to him, he's got a new personality. Something's going to open this noggin. Yeah, well, the new people... We got Ogilvy. I didn't... Did you track that this was Ogilvy's character in 201? This idea that he is a super brain... No, but I think that that's supposed to be like over the course of the day, the guy gets cockier and cockier.

1:02:20Well, the prescription is... And I don't know what's going on with Joy and why she's like looking at her phone and kind of grossed out by medicine.

1:02:27Andy Greenwald:Well, that reminds me of my children. So that is not actually that. Yeah, but I don't want your children operating on me. Fair. I feel like Ogilvy's got a prescription for some comeuppance heading his way. Yeah, I think that the show is a remarkably well-oiled machine at this point. and the, just like the, the accumulating pleasures of ongoing year-to-year TV are just so apparent and so rich in the show even without Mel sticking her hand into a man's open arm socket. Yeah. Just the little moments where, God, that was fucking gross. Did you, because like, but where are you with the show? Like she puts her, they are using like a pulley system to yank a guy.

1:03:17To put his shoulder back in. Which seems, again... Because it's hanging out of his skin, basically.

1:03:22Andy Greenwald:That would be... I mean, you used to do a pretty mean Dr. House imitation in the early 2000s. Like, that seems to make sense to me. Yeah. Put it back in. I was raised on Lethal Weapon with Mel Gibson slamming his shoulder against the wall to put it back in. This is really important. When people wonder why our generation is the way it is, you have to understand that our relationships to bone dislocation was very, very, very... Very different. And very wrong. It came up a lot. We grew up in the era of guys getting shot by Uzis in the arm and being like, it's just a flesh wound. I can keep going.

1:03:57Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:58Andy Greenwald:But the entire plot of Lethal Weapon 2, I mean, sure, yes. Was it about apartheid? Yes. Yeah. But was it really all dependent on Riggs' ability to both dislocate and relocate his arm? Do you think Elon Musk would not like Lethal Weapon 2? I think he he thinks that movie has clear heroes and it is not the mismatched set of cops that you've come to know and love do you think that there is a lethal weapon to Afrikaner cut that's a little bit different I mean I can't believe he hasn't asked Grok to make it yeah but he does have diplomatic immunity and thus the movie ends it's great no notes I mean we're not far off from a recut of like the first Star Wars trilogy where it's like Darth Vader just like doing the Dougie on the Republic you know what I mean and everyone's like that guy had some really good points sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you I think where we went was much better oh no just that when they were doing that scene and then Robbie's like well there's something else we could do Mel put your entire hand into the cavity which is usually protecting his bones I am now at a place where I thought that Mel's hand was in danger not that this would work in a gross way I was worried about that too but they're not gonna take Mel out of the rotation I mean they almost did she had head trauma I know and what's gonna happen with that I hope that guy comes back the liquor store robber are you shipping them I don't do that I don't do that with with characters on the pit it was mean like he seemed like he took a real interest in her we got about I would say I've got about another hour or two of Al Hashimi being like diametrically opposed to Robbie in every situation.

1:05:43Yeah, it's not. Before I'm going to need some, like, you guys need to talk about this. Or there's, see, this is the thing that's cool about the pit is no one ever has time to talk about anything. They're always like, I have another patient. So these conversations and these character conflicts are drawn out because they're happening in 15 second increments. And it actually makes dramatic sense within the pit rather than like on some other random Netflix show where somebody's like, I'm going to leave this room because that would make it more interesting that we haven't resolved this. But like on the pit, they actually do have to go somewhere else.

1:06:16Andy Greenwald:I will also say that, you know, if we've learned anything about how this show is made and like the medical bootcamp that the actors are put through and how they have to work, it is a different type of acting. And there were different opportunities to provide emotional exposition for your character that people who are on season one are reaping the benefits of now. Like Santos's relationship to this child who appears has been abused is like, is riveting, but also tonally consistent with the character that we saw emerge over season one. And that's great for the actor and it's great for the audience as well.

1:06:48Andy Greenwald:I would say that like the Al Hashimi thing has been tough because she is introduced as a blunt instrument to be not Robbie, to be the opposite, to be the AI side of it. And Sepeda Muafi is a really good actor who I'm excited to have on the show, but hasn't really had a lot of opportunity until that moment when Ogilvy speaks perfect Farsi to be more than that. So I imagine, and we also have to remember that, like, it's not just the visceral stuff and the visually extreme stuff that was a hallmark of season one. Every so often, like, they would dim the lights and all the nurses would say, actually, in America, nurses are underpaid.

1:07:25It would become clunky in a way that was— They've shed some of that stuff. Yeah, but they're still in the DNA of the show.

1:07:33Andy Greenwald:And that's okay, especially considering where it's building to. The show's still great, obviously. It's just these first two episodes have been... I think I felt in the second episode what you felt in the first one, which was I'm waiting for something insane to happen. And that didn't happen until episode five or six last season. I would just say that my experience watching the second episode in a week when I was also doing my homework and watching these other programs that we're talking about was so markedly different. Because you're like, this shit is so good. because this is so good and this is on a rhythm that isn't because like what are we like Disney is going to start integrating vertical videos into it like everyone is still trying to quibby this shit up and be like how can we capture the flickering attention span of men who have basically given their lives over to British pub reviews on Instagram couldn't be us but I can never tell whether you're addressing me or talking about yourself that's the beauty of us which one is which yeah it's kind of both of us yeah this show hits it just it is entertaining it's great shit and it's fulfilling and I enjoy the experience of watching it so much more than even pilots that I admire just because of which maybe not it's maybe not a fair comparison because this show is just absolutely clicking in its second season but there it is it's still it's still not broke and they have still managed to perfect it last thing yeah I've I really did feel a little bit I was shook not by the body, the shoulder, cavity shoulder trauma of that one man but the guy who was choking on broccoli because that could be me, Doug Do you eat a lot of broccoli?

1:09:18Andy Greenwald:I eat a lot of broccoli. And you don't chew? I love broccoli That was a fully unschewed piece of broccoli. It was a floret, as we say Yeah, I think broccoli is not good raw Fuck your crudite platter, I'm sorry I don't like broccoli raw I roast yeah you gotta cook it yeah like crudite platters are a lie can we put this at the top let's clip this what do you like crudite platter gets put out I gotta be completely honest like if I'm gonna have a dip I'm gonna have a chip yeah you should or okay I don't mind a carrot I don't mind a carrot carrot is a good vehicle sure celery if you're wired that way okay that's fine but then you see these people and they put out these little bowls of like raw broccoli raw cauliflower and cherry tomatoes.

1:10:04Andy Greenwald:Get out of here. Nobody wants this. This is not what we are meant to do. I hope I'm not letting you down by not meeting your anger. I actually just completely agree with you. This is good podcasting. It's like, do you ever have that? You know what I mean? Like we're just like, I'm in total agreement. Yeah, often, often. I mean, my algorithm is just providing me with soup content. So much positive feedback. Oh, no, those are the comments. not that not that we can wrap it up you think? any other pit notes? you asked me about a casting decision oh I was just curious about I forget the name of the woman the social worker from season one Kiara Kiara she's not there she's not there today which is another incredible thing the show can do yeah if they want to move on from cast or if cast isn't available they'll be like oh she doesn't work Tuesdays she comes in later today just elite shit yeah I was curious about the guy that they brought in as a social worker.

1:11:01Yeah.

1:11:02Andy Greenwald:He kind of has Bonaduce vibes. Well, he also has, I actually do this for a living and they've brought me into the show vibes. That was my take. Not to take away from his acting, which is fine. But I couldn't. But I was almost like, is this actually like a therapist? That is a million percent what I thought. Yeah. And I would love to know the answer to it. I'm sure it's available. I don't have that. Verizon blackout dog, I don't know. Sorry. Did you get blacked out yesterday? No, I'm not a... Phoebe did. She was really mad. did she think that this was a dry run for shutting down the country uh i did not share that theory with her you know why i know that's nonsense because you had verizon and you were looking at twitter all day no because they do that in countries where people didn't vote for that you know what i mean this was all pretty predictable so they're not shutting it down uh yeah i'm curious if that guy is like a real social worker or why because his yeah i mean they They haven't addressed Dr.

1:11:58Andy Greenwald:Collins' absence. They haven't addressed. I don't think they're going to. She's still on do not disturb mode. I don't think they're going to address that. They will probably mention it at some point. I don't. Do you want to put a little polymarket on that? I still don't understand how that works. I don't either. I think it's bad for the world. Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to you. Kaya, do you think, do you lean in as you can feel us rounding third to be like, it's probably going to get weird here and we can harvest something? Yeah, that's where I got the Eagles clip from. That's right.

1:12:30Eagles After Dark. Do you want to do any Eagles After Dark before we go?

1:12:33Andy Greenwald:No, because I think Shield's like, there goes a whole episode for Philly Special. I feel like we should save it for now. Okay. Also, not much has happened. We are going to be here on Monday, if that's okay with you, because Landman concludes its second season. You keep saying that first. I don't think that's the reason. I'm just putting it there because it is the last episode of Landman. And what better way to mark Martin Luther King Day? So you would rather have spent two months talking about it and then not address the finale? I think that my reasoning for doing a show on a federal holiday is that industry season episode two and night of the seven kingdoms.

1:13:06Sorry, I just want to I just want to give the people what they want.

1:13:10Andy Greenwald:And the people want to spend their vacation hearing me. It's not a vacation. It's a day off. It's just one day. I can make a vacation out of it. I won't now because I got to go to Texas. okay Landman Industry Episode 2 Night of the Seven Kings Episode 1 thanks to Kaya thanks to Kai thanks to you thank you shout out the Eppingers that's a ding for Chris see you guys Monday