The Fall TV We’re Most Excited For. Plus, ‘Lanterns’ E4 and ‘Lioness’ After Dark.

25:49Andy Greenwald:And I think, I'm just so glad for many reasons that it was going to continue. But for a show that could move forward but also spread out, it's just a, it's speaking to the theme of having something recurring. Those are the top three. Those are strong top three. I think it's going to be a great fall. Now I have a bunch of new stuff. And I think you're going to be kind of like, oh damn. So number one, I can't say that I am super familiar with Mackenzie Crook's work since The Office and I guess Pirates of the Caribbean. He played Gareth on the UK office. He has also become a show creator over in England.

26:23He made a show called The Detectorists that I never saw and now has a show that I think I've received at least a dozen emails about over the course of the year when it was airing in England about how we needed to find this show, how we needed to talk about it, how we were going to love it. It's called Small Profits.

26:40Andy Greenwald:Alright. P-R-O-P-H-E-T-S Profits. Oh. And it is six episodes. It's coming to Apple on October 7th. And it stars Pierce Quigley, who is also in The Detectorists, who is still distraught. He plays a man named Michael, who is still distraught seven years after the disappearance of his girlfriend. So like any of us would, this is the logline, he turns to alchemy, specifically the creation of magical spirits who can predict the future co-stars in the Manchester set series as does Michael Palin and several other folks Paul Kay, Sophie Willen I don't know anything about it the trailer seems delightful, weird and cozy and how is it coming to us?

27:28via Apple television that's why I was like Apple thought enough of this to put some coin up for it that sounds great yeah so I was like this is cool maybe a new voice for us to cover the next one that I have here after Small Prophets is Tiptoe which is a new show from Russell Davies who made Years and Years oh I know about this and It's a Sin this is Alan Cumming David Morrissey

27:56Andy Greenwald:as neighbors right as feuding neighbors sign me up but is it set particularly during any sort of troubles Not to my knowledge. Troubles as in... I don't mean the Troubles, but I mean more like UK. I didn't get any deep detail about that, but Alan Cumming and David Morrissey play Feuding Neighbors. It's five episodes. It's on Starz. You know I love Alan personally and professionally. I also know about the show because they were doing press together for it. And I think I saw it through Alan's Instagram. And it's just absolutely delightful because they've known each other for 30 years. And they were talking about like...

28:31Andy Greenwald:And they were so cozy and friendly. and I think they play vicious antagonists in this, but it was very sweet to hear them talk about how they had that level of trust. They could do that because they know that they love each other. It was nice. It doesn't seem to be existing in any kind of historical moment other than, I think, according to Wikipedia, anti-LGBTQ rhetoric on social media leads the neighbors to become enemies. So it could be any time. But I think... It could be any way. It's timeless, sadly. timeless content um russell davies i mean he's been on the pod we had a great talk with him about um about it's a sin yeah um also famous for doctor who and bringing it back but and queer as folk and i mean incredible career but also such an interesting creator um because he just does his own thing and seems to have what appears to be i'm sure he would dispute this but from our perspective like like a tenure track position with british television live in like the coolest house in Wales that just like oversees a lock and he writes?

29:36Andy Greenwald:In my impression, that's most houses in Wales, but it probably is the nicest one. But yeah, he just writes it all himself. But it is like, it's the type of career that we don't really seem to be able to support in America. I mean, maybe David Simon and Pelicanos were the closest and they're like, we do what we do and we do it for HBO when we're ready to do it. But his curiosity is, not curiosity, but his the range of what he likes to write about is wider, certainly, but always worth checking out. um the next show i wanted to mention is youth which is the new show from oh so by the way tiptoe comes out october 2nd okay uh and five episodes the next show i wanted to talk about after that is youth which is the new show from sharon horgan we didn't talk about the trailer good trailer good trailer and this is um sharon horgan is essentially uh aside from bad sisters which was clearly like a kind of like um like black comedy mystery thriller she's kind of made a a career out of chronicling different phases and stages of her life from motherland which i i adore so deeply uh catastrophe with rob delaney great um and now youth which is about love and sex and death in your 50s and couldn't be us dog look good starts on on september 20th eight episodes the first two go up it's on hbo and it looked awesome every episode written by sharon um also did you see how deep the cast list goes.

31:01Andy Greenwald:Maybe you saw in the trailer. I didn't. First of all, great to see Rupert Friend. But among the guest stars, recurring stars, are the great Harriet Walter who played the kid's mother on Succession. Mm-hmm. And our number one draft pick, Freddie Fox. Stays working. Can't lose. The one after that, this is really interesting. I guess this is her first HBO series since Divorce, right? Which we didn't really engage with. We did not really engage with that. In fact, I don't even remember who she was getting divorced from. Thomas Hayden Church. Really? Who is now on tires. He sure is on tires. Did I tell you that?

31:33Andy Greenwald:I don't think I told you this, but I love to do the Thomas Friedman style of research, like just boots on the ground, like Man of the People. On my recent flight to Seattle, I would say I had visual... In my field of vision, I could see four other people's screens, and three of them were watching Tires Season 3. Was one of them Kaya? Has Kaya been watching? I have. You convert Kaya? Yeah. You, Andy, converted me. She knew I was already... You're hopeless, but it was my... I'm the swing voter. Wow, that's nice, Gaia. Thank you. I need your help on this one. For one thing, something's going on cosmically.

32:11I'm opening my heart to animation. What? Well, first of all, Blue-Eyed Samurai is coming back imminently.

32:17Andy Greenwald:You like that more than I did, too, right? But I... Another one grabbed my eye. Another animated show grabbed my eye. Get Jiro? Oh, Get Jiro. Jiro? Is it just the J is hard? The J is hard in Japan. You were thinking more of a Greek or even a Spanish. Sure. Animated, anime style. That's Tony Bourdain's graphic novel. Based on Anthony Bourdain's graphic novel about a dystopian future where chefs are super celebrities. Among the voice talent, Titus Welliver and Justin Kirk. Starts October 3rd. On what channel? Adult Swim slash HBO. And it looked really cool. Did you read this graphic novel? I think there was more than one volume, I think.

32:59I read the first one.

33:00Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I mean, it did combine a lot of my interests. The Age of Apocalypse. The Age of Battleworld. Sushi. Pretty much me for a period of my life. Here's the last batch. Okay. Now, when you say the last batch, they are lower on the list because you think they will be less appealing to me or they're more wild cards? As we get, the lower we get, the more I'm like, this could go one of two ways. And are you including like East of Eden in this or because we already talked about that? I didn't include East of Eden. I mean, like, I think it looks lovely, but I didn't know if you were going to be like, stop the presses East of Eden's on.

33:32Andy Greenwald:What about the new Pride and Prejudice? No. I didn't have that on here. No thoughts for that? I guess I don't really know you. It's fine. It's fine. It hurts. I was like, does this new Pride and Prejudice, is this Emma Corrin is in this one? It's Emma Corrin and Jack Loudon. And Dolly Alderton wrote it. Okay. And Olivia Colman plays Mom. And when's that coming out? Soon. First week of October, I think. Not on Netflix. Well, you can remove either Vision Quest from your list. No, no. Keep talking. Vision Quest is just weird. Honestly, it could be the last MCU show. I'm not even sure. I have it down here because you and I care so deeply about what happened in Sokovia.

34:12Some have forgotten. See James Spader come back as Ultron or in some capacity.

34:18Andy Greenwald:Isn't he just coming back as James Spader in a soundstage living inside of Paul Bettany's mind? I believe he is himself. Like, I don't think he is voicing a very expensive drawing of a killer robot. Wait, what do you mean he's coming back as himself? Have you not seen the pictures of the show? They've released them, maybe only to select press. There's a picture of James Spader just being blacklist James Spader. Google James Spader Vision Quest. Can we get the camera on Chris's screen or is that illegal? I think this should be part of it. My understanding of the series is that because Vision has been through some tough times post-Sokovia, this is kind of like a Herman's Head type series.

34:54Ultron in human form in Vision Quest. I thought that's why you brought this up.

35:00Andy Greenwald:It's like a Herman's Head for robots. And inside of his head, ever since they defeated him, I guess James Spader has been living in his head, which does sound provocative. Well, it's Ultron in human form. I don't know if James Spader looks like that all the time. Looks like what? Well, he's got a giant beard. He looks like he's in Mastodon. I'm going to say something. I'm going to, you know, I like to play it close to the vest. I like to play it safe. My guess is that Ultron in human form looks like whatever James Spader looked like the day they got him to set. And they're like, okay, I guess we're doing this.

35:34So I'm curious about this. I'm also curious about where this leaves Marvel television.

35:41Andy Greenwald:Here's why I want to go super hard at Vision Quest. How many episodes is it? 105. Truly. I just wrote down Vision Quest bullet point, finally. That's me. here's how I think we should handle Vision Quest I'm gonna propose something to you I think we should take Kevin Feige at his word with this because my understanding when it was introduced at the D20 eight episodes streams weekly what's it called D23 or something I feel like he I feel like someone said Vision Quest is essential viewing for Doomsday so I think we need to cover this show like it's the second season of The Sopranos I think we need to devote more airtime and more brainpower to the show than anything else on our slot.

36:30Andy Greenwald:Okay. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, rigorously cover this text. I don't even want this clipped for social. I want it clipped for personal use so that when you're like, episode two of Vision Quest, I'm out. I won't be out. I won't be out. You're more likely to be out than me. Yeah. This is a character whose charms have escaped me. How many episodes of Secret Invasion did you watch? I think most of it. Okay. How many episodes? Because I kept waiting for it to be like the parallax view and it wasn't. Yeah. In retrospect, like, how do we feel about, now that we know more of this. That the Russos lie to us.

37:09Andy Greenwald:Constantly. Chronically. But also just that like, you know, more of the backstory of like how challenging these things were to make and then also how little they paid off in terms of their larger story architecture. What are your feelings this many years on of Captain America and the Winter Soldier. No, it wasn't Winter Soldier. It was Falcon and Winter Soldier. Well, I mean, I think it would be a very challenging endeavor, but one could re-watch all of Marvel's TV efforts to see if there's any hidden gems, if there are any things that we judged too harshly, if, in fact, the things that were good were not actually as good as we thought they were in the moment.

37:50You and I have been pretty much off the sauce since WandaVision.

37:55Andy Greenwald:WandaVision was the first one. No, but I mean, I don't think we've like heralded... Yeah, Loki. Loki ruled. Loki was really good. Oh, yeah, that's right. You were crazy about Loki. Crazy about Loki. S1. S2, do you... What was your relationship to S2? Nah. Nah. Miss me with that. I mean, look, who doesn't love a protagonist slowly becoming an all-seeing story tree at the center of the multiverse? Like, that does appeal to me. But I just have... I do have some fond memories. I don't know why I have this nostalgia. It's kind of COVID-y. But like watching Falcon and Winter Soldier and then seeing all the lines that were ADR'd off characters' backs while they were changing the plot in real time.

38:30Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I mean, like they were... It's wild. They were weaving it in midair. It was something else. It was beautiful. And, you know, Wyatt Russell's John Walker... I enjoyed John Walker. ...was important. Yeah. I'm going to read you for the last two here. I'm going to read you a log line and then you tell me if you're interested in this. Okay, hold on. Let me... All right. Set in 1977. I mean, just like us. An Indianapolis man named Tony Caritsis takes a man hostage and phones a local radio reporter and demands to be interviewed on the air. The man who takes the hostage, the hostage taker, is played by Giovanni Ribisi.

39:09The radio reporter is Jon Hamm. The television show is American Hostage, which is Sean Ryan and Eileen Myers, who did The Night Agent, and Sean Ryan did The Shield. it's their effort at creating a like a Ryan Murphy anthology style

39:27Andy Greenwald:there could be a different American hostage every week every week every season every season this is an anthology show is this an original hostage taking or is it historical historical it's a true story also stars Muriel Enos and William Jackson Harper it's on MGM plus don't even know if you have that and it starts September 20th with a two episode premiere just based on this cast yeah good cast the ribese handpiece ribese doesn't doesn't get out of bed for just anything these days yeah and you've always been a big giovanni guy well you see him around and he's always got a cool camera do you see him around he's around he's in around in these streets he's outside and i just love his his dedication to to keeping like old cameras up and working like i think he works on like a bunch of like imax cameras and vista vision cameras this is a whole la i don't know about yeah and he shot strange darling that that horror thriller from a couple years ago he was a dp have you invited him on the podcast no i think he went on big pick for strange darling with jt mollner but this seems cool is is ham's part i mean i haven't seen a trailer you're hitting me with this cole i didn't even know about the show there has been a trailer but he plays a 1970s radio reporter local radio reporter does he leave the radio station or did he shoot out his whole season in like a week in a room because that would be that would be very economical for the series going forward yes if the person the hostage taker calls can just can just wrap out in a couple days garradilla hunt i'm nude in my house for the entire season of lanterns uh i think this looks cool and then this other one i just can't believe i'm like reading this actual log line uh this is called kill jackie and it's on amc okay our our dearly beloved AMC.

41:11Still waiting for that call to run it. The show stars Catherine Zeta Jones.

41:17Andy Greenwald:Okay. It's about a one-time drug smuggler, now art dealer, who gets targeted by a group of assassins, and then she turns the tables by going after the assassins. What? It feels kind of late 90s. It's based on a Nick Harkaway novel, who is John LeCarre's son. Yeah. And it co-stars Daniel Ings. What? This has to be a co-pro. Looks very late 90s, early ought kind of tongue-in-cheek comic thriller okay i'm sure you're right it is a co-pro it comes out october 2nd and it looks okay it looks cool so kill jackie daniel ings it says it's amazon prime this says amc are the maybe the walls are collapsing interesting okay well amc plus AMC plus Amazon oh it's a prime video original outside of the United States that's what you're thinking of I see sorry okay well there's a lot of and it's Freemancel which is an international company but interesting yeah I mean I think two things one of the things that you mentioned as a wild card will take flight and we'll be super into it but I also think we should in the modern parlance hold space for an 11th show that we don't know about that will Furious or the Gold Us.

42:38Andy Greenwald:I have it. You have it already? I already have it. God, you're good at this. High value target colon The Hunt for Saddam Hussein starring Joel Kinnaman. Eight episodes on TNT. We're fucking back. We're fucking back on TNT. Get inside the NBA out of my face and let Kinnaman hunt Saddam. Was he successful? Yeah. He was, obviously. Eventually. Yeah. How long was his hunt? Eight episodes. I would say, again, And I'm not a close scholar of the Middle East. This starts next week, by the way. I'm ready. I don't think... Or this week. Oh, they're waiting. We always like to get involved in Iraq. It's September 13th.

43:16Andy Greenwald:We like to get involved in Iraq right after September 11th. So that's perfect. Very respectful. I, in my, you know, again, my memory might be faulty. I'm not a scholar of the region. But I believe that between the years of like 1970 and his end, Saddam Hussein was in these streets and bunkers. But like he wasn't really hiding. you know he was like i'm running things you know so what was joel's like he apparently is the guy who's like he's a saddam expert and he briefs bush about it like i think he's going back and forth a real hero he's like mr president as i was saying on september 10th hunt for this guy i'm interested in a version of this story yeah you're all ashamed now no i'm not you're a bit have bashed you were a little too eager do you want to talk about lanterns episode four yeah i do i do i'll tell a funny story to start us off here i was hoping you would i think this is going to be good for us people make mistakes i'm not too big to admit it and when we you know we have a couple of screeners for lanterns although i believe i think we're i think this we're cut off cut off dude uh i accidentally watched four ahead of three and i thought it was good because four starts at the end of two yeah this makes sense this makes sense and there were a couple of things that threw me off one i was like you guys are treating laura linney's arrival incredibly pretty chill about this yeah i was like that's laura linney and i didn't meet her yet and yet it seems like i'm supposed to know who she is and what she's doing here were you leaning in at that point or did you feel like it was a little bit aggressive to introduce a guardian as laura linney in a motel room?

44:58I thought it was surprising.

45:00Andy Greenwald:Okay. I also thought it was surprising when Sunday's episode aired this past Sunday's or the Sunday, the third episode aired actually. Oh, yeah. People were like, holy shit. What a portrait of an American family. And I was like, what? Which family? The family that paints each other new. And then it was like, you know, Jasmine Cephas Jones is so incredible as John's mom. And I was like, was she in that episode? On the phone? Yeah, like when she just was like, John is that you? So I was like was there like a stinger? Post credit scene? I went and looked nope because it wasn't up and I had miswatched them.

45:39It did though in a strange way speak to this sort of like unique way that they're kind of setting up this early part of the season to go flashback episode three to go standalone episode almost that's kind of from one perspective is kind of a fascinating choice and And look, I thought that there were parts of this episode that sang. And I thought that the twists are interesting. I'd like to talk to you about some of the detective work. But tell me what you thought about episode four.

46:10Andy Greenwald:Well, first of all, I did watch it thinking of your mishap. Yeah. And I thought that was very interesting for the reasons you just said, which is if you expected the show to kind of be basic paint by the numbers, this does pick up exactly where the other one left. Yeah. I, well, since I was going into this episode with that in mind, I was even more grateful for the, for the, the breadth of three to add more context to it, to get us out of Rushville, to, to, to make a larger world than this in one investigation. I think that the my sense is my confidence is high that when the season is done whether we come out loving it liking it respecting it that the scaffolding of how they built a very complicated machine is going to be impressive yes and I think that the flashback episode where it fell was really clever and really good and as you said not playing with it's always the relief pitcher metaphor but playing with delivery and velocity is one of the more powerful tools than the showrunner arsenal so I thought that was really well done the density of information in this episode i think is pretty high uh both in terms of this opening sinestro sequence yes um which which i thought was excellent but was rather long you know like it's a it's a it's a pretty if you're if you're like a casual fan and don't know much about the green lanterns in general and who the fuck sinestro is um it's it's a pretty like heady scene to watch can you give me any context to i know you're a dc guy i think i'm on the other side of it i love those scenes and i love their um they're almost like austerity like i think the reference that i would imagine was in the room was um uh a different manhunter the michael man manhunter or any hannibal lecter movie yeah um that that's how they were going to frame it and And that, you know, as the other characters talk about Sinestro and Hal and that relationship, I think the subtlety of not just his red skin tone and his little slight alien ears, but you understand that this is a father figure and a friend who he loves but can no longer trust.

48:24Andy Greenwald:And like, that's enough. I think deeper hardcore Green Lantern Corps heads know that Sinestro's betrayal involves the color yellow which is the color of fear and letting fear into your heart and how that defeats green which is all about bravery and fearlessness and I think they're doing a relatively smart job of keeping that up here you know like in the sort of intellectual sense of like we understand that it is both heroic but also deeply fucked up to be like, I'm not afraid of anything. Sure. And that what happens when you let the fear in and where it, where, where it leads you. So I thought that, I thought that was really artful.

49:02Andy Greenwald:I thought also in the spirit of, um, the Colonel in Boogie Nights, who I know was a hero of yours, both on screen and off. Sure. You know, he's a man who knows what he likes. Let's put it that way. Right. Sinestro is or the Colonel? No, the Colonel is. Okay. Um, and you know, to that point, like, I love a what the fuck Lindelofian set piece so Zoe's satellite death no oh the fucking slaughterhouse oh yeah that was very very Lindelofian there's this thing we've been talking about it and again because we know him like I think we're we're doing a forensic read of it that maybe is maybe more we assume more yeah I mean even last week we were ascribing a lot of like Damon writerly like sort of themes in Damon Lindelof's past work that may have been Vanessa B.

49:52and Kelly or Chris Mundy or Tom King or whatever.

49:55Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I don't want to miss, I don't want to like to apportion the credit incorrectly. But again, I do think that there is a step that is a hallmark of Damon's shows and rooms that has filtered into other rooms successfully, which is you reach a point in the breaking of the episode where they're going to go detective. They're going to go after the satellite. If you think about it purely like A to B to C. and then I just have this belief that there's a moment a pause and maybe the pause is a day or maybe it's three weeks where no bad ideas in a brainstorm like what is the most visually what the fuck we could do here to earn more of what we want this show to be and a high tech slaughterhouse where everyone's ignoring them and then a cow comes through a lynchian hell mouth into a white room and then is gorely and bloodily vivisected for a pile of steaks.

50:48Pretty good. Is that like portal that the cow walks through the same thing that John goes through to get to his interview?

50:57Andy Greenwald:Possibly. I mean, it's similar. And so, you know, if you're watching the show on a different level, you could be like, oh, does that mean that the Manhunter's technology also led John? His Guardian technology. Yeah, or that, yes, or that John is being set up or something. Sure. There's a deeper, another card to turn. Cool. But also in that moment, it was like Lynch directing what was the first George Lucas movie? That THX? Yes, THX 138. That one? Like some weird visual crossover of that language and ending in the room with a guy who is not an alien. Like I just really, really - That sequence is awesome.

51:30Andy Greenwald:I just vibrate to that. Like I just think it's so - When they do that in a show that has so many mechanisms like spinning, it just feels like a moment where you can throw your hands up like you're on a roller coaster and enjoy it. So for that alone, I really, really liked the episode. But I have other things to say. No, but please, you next. No, we don't have to go trade back and forth. I'd love to know, what did you think of the Zoe stuff? My concern when you ask me stuff back to back to back is that I think there are people who single channel our podcast and only listen to you. And I'm worried then it's just going to be silence.

52:06I remember when we used to do Zoom recordings back in COVID.

52:10Andy Greenwald:Yeah, and we would record our own audio and send it in. I don't talk that much. did someone else or did um was it because you were more you're more worried about like aerosols more reflective back then you know uh i wanted to ask about the zoe stuff because what do you think yeah i thought the porn of jaganathan scene her her scene with with aaron pierre and the motel room was very good okay i liked it a lot i like this idea of um if you take it at face value that everything is all the little blinking lights are pointing to her as the Manhunter. Yes. That the you know sentinel of destruction could also come in the shape of a great healer and a great you know it would be like why should we revolt against the Manhunter?

53:03He's like cured cancer. She's cured cancer. Nobody's sick here. His body looks amazing. Yeah my body I'm cut you know great. He probably

53:12Andy Greenwald:does a lot of protein and weight training. I suppose this is a question about whether or not, the thing I wanted to ask is whether or not this is, do you feel like this is a lot of work to come up with a red herring? Well, because it seems like everybody is just like, obviously. It's her now. But what's weird is that the red herring was everything else up to this point. And we have reached the halfway point of the season. I think that so far, and we'll see how it plays out. So this is not me predicting a reaction to it, but I will say that the Zoe thread has probably to me been the least successful part of the series.

53:49Andy Greenwald:Nothing to do with the performer, but the relationship between her and John doesn't make any sense to me other than it's what people wanted them to do, writers needed them to do, so that when she says this is the last time, I'm like, why? I don't understand why it was the first time. I don't really understand why they are attracted to each other, why someone who is so buttoned up would be relatively reckless in this case. And maybe, you know, with a brain trust like this, my questions are the questions, maybe these are the questions we're meant to be asking. But everything was so signposted for it to be her, including the way the camera lingered on the bracelet that she left for whatever reason before she got...

54:34Andy Greenwald:Vaporized. Potentially vaporized. So... So, and then if you're stacking red herrings, them going to chase this guy Hammond and then meeting a guy and then being told it's someone else only for them both to say to each other, we both know who it is though really, right? Right. And then my next question is, is this the most interesting thing Jon Stewart's ever done in his pre-programmed life, which is have sex not once but twice with a pansexual intergalactic and when did he know? And to what extent is it part of or in a kind of continuum of behavior and cause and effect that Hal interrupting his assassination attempt, getting him dishonorably discharged.

55:20Oh, right. Sending him in this path

55:22Andy Greenwald:to where he's going to become like an architect, but then becomes... Who's pulling all these strings? Yeah, who's pulling the strings? And, you know, the culpability of his parents. I'm like, is this a guy rebelling? Is this a guy doing deep undercover detective work? Like, what are we seeing here? And I think that the third episode gives the fourth episode so much more color when it comes to Hal jumping out of the car in the last moment and allowing John to crash into a light pole. You think he'll be okay? I do think he'll be okay, but I just think it's like, for most of this episode, these guys are actually seemingly getting along.

56:00Like, I mean, they're at least going along with each other.

56:02Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Now there's like the whole like just take the ring and say the oath and you know that stuff. But I think it was like a handy good middle season detective episode that had some really good human moments. And it had some really good meta human moments like the idea of them being cornered by thugs with guns that shoot darkness. That is a pure comic book idea. Yeah. And I loved it. I loved seeing it. I wondered though the other feeling I had to this episode was that it was funnier and funnier in the sense of like it was they made it they made a point of underlining it buddy cop stuff yeah he's like did you just make a joke because John does make a joke at one point and then there's a moment where they both say set it off as a good movie you know and there's the whole line about you know superheroes don't really lock the door and jazz this can't be good and it's a lot more buddy cop and I enjoyed that this is a weird thing where like I'm not complaining about how clever the script was or how much more enjoyable it is for Aaron Pierre and Kyle Chandler to be playing off of each other as opposed to playing like almost on top of one another but the subsequent feeling that you didn't have because you watched them out of order was that there was an element of we got the serious stuff out of the way now we can be goofy again yeah I mean it almost felt like a season two episode you know what I mean at times where you'd be like now these two guys are investigating like a crime and this is their patter but you know you can trust that they love each other It's also the nature of a show that wants to tackle real world issues where I think they were correct to more soberly state the facts in terms of John's role as a black man on Earth and also intergalactically in his relationship to his family.

57:41Andy Greenwald:That wouldn't necessarily have been the time for a lot of, you know, wink, wink jokes. But the fact that like it went so if the switch flipped so dramatically from one episode to the next, you just felt the difference. yeah I thought that like we were asked to kind of consider the idea at the end of the second episode that John can manifest lantern like powers independent of the ring right or he can continue to continue to right that he is more special than he may even know right like that it's not just he's been training his whole life to do this but he may have some innate gifts that other beings in the galaxy have taken note of and then in the third episode we just go back to his kind of not we just it was an extraordinary like effort to go back and kind of establish why this character is behaving the way he is why how jordan might be behaving the way he is and what context brought these two people together i don't know that i came out of the fourth episode and was like and then this is what we learned coming out of the fourth episode about any of these people but that doesn't necessarily need to happen every episode no i i and i continue to feel like i would rather have the more humorous human Jon Stewart when we can because I continue to feel that like the construction of his backstory is really thought-provoking and interesting and resulted in an excellent episode but I don't believe him as a human because of it.

59:01Andy Greenwald:Sure. I don't believe him. I mean maybe Joel Kinnaman could do it if he was hunting Saddam Hussein but nine months in the bush you know with one target. It's wild. It is wild. No wonder he jumps into bed with the first step-grandmother that he can find. Do you have any other notes you wanted to share before we get into After Dark? No, I guess I just feel, where are you with this show halfway through? Do you feel enthusiastic and engaged and eager to see where it goes? Yeah, on a visceral level, I look forward to watching it every week and I'm never bored while I'm watching it. And that increasingly is becoming something I'm very sensitive to.

59:38Like just the, do I feel my mind wander? Am I locked in? Do I find the performances is charismatic and engaging yes yes yes yes yes so even when i'm like that scene was wonky or it seemed like that was like gifted to this this revelation was gifted to them in the or in the to expedite expedite like the plot i instead of like hard work figuring out who the the manhunter is i uh i just i just i i really enjoy it but i do note some differences or some basically some flaws here and there. What about you?

1:00:16Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I'm loving watching it. I think Never Bored is a very high praise these days to give. I just like the way it handles these ideas. I like the way that this sounds pretty basic, but I like the way Hal Jordan flies. I like the thought that was given to that and what it feels like when he says point in the sky and he's gone. I really like the Sinestro stuff. I like a show that can give us an interesting Sinestro and an interesting Sheriff of Kelly MacDonald in the same episode, that it's not over-weighting one versus the other. But actually, the thought I had when I was finishing the fourth episode was I do have some regret for not sticking with Penguin.

1:00:50Andy Greenwald:Not because I feel like I missed out on Oz Cobblepot's rise to power, but more specifically, people genuinely loved that show or really, really liked that show, let's say, right? And after one episode, I think you and I were like, this is very, very well done. And this might be the best version of this, best case, but because it is essentially using the trappings of a crime show, but instead of filling it, the space created by originality with what something like Furious did, it filled it with DC and Matt Reeves lore. I was okay stepping back. The reason I was thinking of it was, is there a natural cap on these things that no matter what good intention you're putting into it and how much thought you're putting into an episode like three, you are setting up James Gunn's Man of Tomorrow.

1:01:39Andy Greenwald:You are dealing with the precepts of the DCU or the character's history and whatever. And can you overcome them? It's an interesting point. And also, it's not a bad business model for audiences or for KC at HBO to be like, I'm going to spend money and attract talent and make the best series of B-pluses we can. This is also a hit. I'm not trying to damn it with faint praise. I guess I'm just wondering, can it... There have been moments that have transcended and moments and not every show needs to i think the dc shows are working generally i mean i i'm not addicted to them like you know i watched a bit probably more than you of penguin yeah and then i think i finished it as well did you did you watch more people in peacemaker i i it's fine it's fun maker is fun yeah um i don't think peacemaker is like the best show i've ever seen but I definitely like enjoyed what I've watched of it and then it seems like that Scholar Gazzando show the Jimmy Olsen show like that's a really good idea for a TV show to have the American Vandal guys make a true crime documentary with Jimmy Olsen like that's just like let's take chances with the TV stuff rather than sort of staly going through six episodes only to have a post credit stinger that somehow links to an Avengers show Isn't that crazy though?

1:03:01Andy Greenwald:Like, I know this is incredibly obvious, but I just hadn't been grouping them together in the same way that we group the MCU TV shows. Like when you said DC's working on TV, I just was thinking about our jokes about Falcon and Winter Soldier and Vision Quest. Like, oh my God, yes, they're working. It is entirely successful, especially compared to what Marvel became and what they were trying to do and what they didn't even try to do. So by that metric, incredible. I don't know if it's, all gun. I don't think Penguin is in the gun verse. It's more like the Matt Reeves side of things. Right. And for now, I think predates gun a little bit.

1:03:40Andy Greenwald:It does. I still wonder if like the effort of introducing another Batman when you have Robert Pattinson, who's just like, okay, maybe. Well, if they make one of those, like every five years, I don't, it's going to be six years. I think it looks cool. Well, that's all that matters to us. Um, all right. Lioness. Yeah. I got to ask you. Okay. Can I set this up for you? Sure. There were rumblings and disturbances in the force because generally the ambient feedback I get about Linus is that it's all go, brother. Everybody's having a great time. All go, like the audience or the people on the carrot?

1:04:18Andy Greenwald:Yeah, yeah. And recently, I've picked up on a sense that there have been some bumps. Yes. That people are not as gung-ho about some things that maybe the season has taken a turn. And when we last checked in, on Joe and her team of bathtub enthusiasts and killers. I had no notes. You had no notes. You were thrilled. Since then, and I talked about it with Van, and we were equally like kind of delighted by the messiness of basically doing two seasons of this show in one, where one is they tried to kill Joe and they missed and then Joe gets her revenge. And then there's also another season where they've kidnapped Joe and are trying to get her out of the country and her lioness team is looking for her.

1:05:02Andy Greenwald:And those are both happening concurrently this season? They are. And they are like... In two timelines? In two timelines. And I would not say evenly distributed and not always clearly demarcated. So in this episode that just happened on Sunday, there's basically a turn mid-episode where they bring back our Ukrainian-Russian double agent who's living happily in Tulsa under the name Paige Weaver, where she shops for one and has a very Airbnb-ed out, furnished house in Tulsa, but she has one avocado. One Ukrainian lady who wants to hang out at night. I feel like one avocado would be pretty fucking exciting in Kiev.

1:05:43Andy Greenwald:You know what I mean? No, that's the breadbasket of Europe, isn't it? Ukraine? Right now? I mean, generally speaking. Read the news, brother. I know democracy is dead. It's funny you should say that. But I, for some reason, got served a video of people shopping at a grocery store in Kiev. And they were like, don't let them fool you. We still got groceries. They all had six fingers. I don't know why I got served that. Actually, I do. I know. Because you talk about lioness. And by the way, I am not, just to be clear, before I get aggregated by like pro-Putin forces here, I have no opinion or knowledge of the state of Ukraine's groceries.

1:06:19Andy Greenwald:Yeah. It was more that from my experience, all of Europe is avocado mad and they mostly grow them, I believe, in Spain and Portugal and maybe in North Africa. Okay. Okay? Yes. Kaya, okay. Over the last two weeks, I would say this season has made a decision, a turn. And that turn is this. the cia is conducting a domestic purge of our government higher education and news media to rid them of you know i guess russian double agents but kind of not so veiled like communists like it is a weird like red scare thing where they're like it turns out like all these people through NGOs and political action committees are getting paid by Russia to indoctrinate our youth and our masses with like woke nonsense.

1:07:16Andy Greenwald:Brother, that's Senator Tommy Tuberville's campaign literature. I know, I got a show for Tom. If he's not already watching. And look, I think my tolerance level for stuff like that is pretty high. It is. I can't believe that you're blinking on this. there's been a repeated trope on this show this last two weeks where Joe's heart surgeon thoracic surgeon husband I love him Dave Annabelle is in this safe house on an army base where they've been living since the kidnapping attempt and he does nothing but watch the news uh oh and he's just like honey is this what you were talking about like with like these these professors who are peddling anti-American invective and she's just like, no, this is only the story that the news wants you to hear.

1:08:10And it is like we've gotten into like episode 400 of the Lioness podcast that I'm like, all right, guys, it's not as funny as it used to be. That's amazing.

1:08:22Andy Greenwald:It's amazing. And somewhere I just feel like JD Vance doing the Palpatine meme where he's just like, yes, yes. They keep... kidnapping people and then really delighting and informing them that they will not be mirandized like being like where i'm sending you in gitmo i'm like we're doing gitmo still he's like you're gonna be like listening to metallica with no roof for like five years and then i'm gonna come back and ask you again what i just asked you and see if you have like a better attitude about it i honestly that sounds like a kid i knew in high school like that is how he his name Miranda no that's how he spent high school and the teacher will be like I'm gonna come back and ask you again about fucking of mice and men yeah but wow so it's tough and this is a big deal for you to bump on some of this stuff we now find out that Joe's been kidnapped by Iranian forces wow so it's a hotbed that's going on and yeah this one this one I felt like this was not my favorite lioness episode just put it that way and I think a lot I think I think a lot of people have joined me in this journey of watching this somewhat very entertaining spycraft show that also has long stretches of political invective yes yeah not a lot of self reflection and so the show is sort of advocating for some sort of large like cultural revolution if you will where we purge the academics yeah in order to achieve not communism not communism that's cool let's do it the other way so yeah can't possibly see the downside yeah p weird but hopefully this lady in Tulsa is going to figure it all out she seemed to have all the roadmaps for how the Russians exfil oh I thought you were saying they black bagged her and sent her to Gitmo no she just went to Tulsa and witnessed protection but then they found her because they were like the Russians are going to kill her so we gotta go find her oh I hope they were like there's only one woman in Tulsa buying fresh produce not eating not smoking indoors not smoking indoors at the bar next to Sterling's house but I continue to be seated I'll finish the project you know Tim Simons recently started watching Lioness so I take my influence seriously what I enjoy most is that our buddy Tim is texting you about his journey with Lioness like 11 p.m at night but I'm on the thread yeah and every so I wake up you haven't answered at all have you I back channel with him no no but like I don't answer because I wake up sort of bleary-eyed and I throw on the glasses and and I look at the text and it's just like a bunch of texts from 1113 that's like jesus no wonder andy doesn't watch this i don't know what more i can add i feel seen yeah um but look man we'll i'll give you the the finale recap and we'll kind of see where we're at thank you you know you're basically doing the like the the the self-reflective dnc deep dive like what went wrong that they buried that's right you're doing the work and they need to hear what you say from your report from the front lines uh we'll be back on Thursday we're going to preview the Emmys.

1:11:22We'll do should win will win that day. And we'll also talk a little bit about the return of the paper on Peacock and NBC. I believe.

1:11:30Andy Greenwald:I believe both this time. Yeah. And thanks to Kaya and John for producing us on Labor Day. Hope everybody had a nice long weekend and we'll see you Thursday. Happy holiday. Brains.