‘The Odyssey’ Is the Film Event of the Year. Plus, ‘Resident Evil’ and ‘Clayface’ Trailers.

22:01They have had to adjust a lot of these things. Now, I don't always, obviously I don't, but I guess when I was listening to Van and Charles and Jomie and Steve, I was like, you know what? This has been a tough last couple of years And so maybe that has something to do with why Doomsday is like we have to like kind of clear the decks, which is now sort of what he is leading with as the headline of he's like these movies will set us up for the next generation of Marvel movies.

22:31Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I mean, I think you touched on this a little bit last week. Like, the negativity and concern that I feel for Doomsday coming off of that bleak-looking trailer has nothing to say about my optimism for starting Clean Slate with a good cast of the X-Men, with a good director in— Jake Schreier. Jake Schreier and Sonny from Who's Done Beef and Joanna Kahlo. It's like the Thunderbolts crew, yeah. I think that's exciting. And I think it could be a good movie. I mean, you know, I saw you say that you don't remember where you were during Fantastic Four. You were traveling. Yeah. And you were home.

23:10Andy Greenwald:I liked that movie. I don't think it necessarily works as a, I don't think it's a great work of art. I don't think it's necessarily like the most thrilling building block to what's coming out later this year. But I liked it. And I think they understood, he hasn't lost his ability to understand at their root what's interesting and compelling about a lot of these characters. Do you think that part of the problem with some of the films that have come out, and I'm talking specifically about FF, which, you know, I think you enjoyed the specificity of like the idea of this kind of retro futuristic stuff in the family.

23:44But that's a movie where, I mean, honestly, like it does seem like Fantastic Four is a little bit of, it's got a little bit of a hex on it, like over the years.

23:53Andy Greenwald:It's a tough one. Yeah, and it's one of those things where we're like, this has so much name recognition. Why aren't people coming to this movie? But I wonder whether it was a little stuck between stations, which a lot of these films recently have been, where you can't really confidently push an entire phase or cinematic universe forward because you're not entirely sure how to get where you ultimately want to go, which is X-Men. Yeah, and as they learn with Supergirl, you can't just count on each step you take being sturdy. Yes. And then on the other hand, because you still have to make some gestures towards that, you can't just have like its own.

24:31It can't be Ant-Man. You know what I mean? Where it's like we're going to have fun and do a caper movie. You know, you have to build up all this, like meet these people, understand what they've accomplished. What's their what's their new kind of object object that they have to overcome? And then where does that leave? Not only them, but a dozen other characters. So I have sympathy for it because I just don't think anyone's ever really tried to do this before in the history of movies.

24:57Andy Greenwald:Well, they've never done it in either direction. What was incredibly successful and ultimately exhilarating was when they started making the Marvel movies as Marvel Studios that led to the Avengers. They wanted to get there, but they were not sure that they would. and they understood that each step they took would have to be taken with great care and make a case for itself on its own in case they had to rip up the playbook and change their minds. And there were even early missteps, quote unquote, but like you mentioned Ant-Man, like the origin of Ant-Man is interesting because that was Edgar Wright coming in for a meeting and being like, I want to do something crazy.

25:32Andy Greenwald:And then being like, we love it, go. And then realizing actually this thing that we're very delicately trying to build doesn't have the ability to do that. We have to bring it closer to the house style. We have to make it a little bit more in line with everything else. It's not—Gunn is doing something different by putting Clayface into this so early, I think. What was incredible about the Marvel run is that then they did it, and then they were stuck in a completely new, unique circumstance, which was, how do we do it again? And everything that came out after Endgame was building towards another Avengers event movie, no matter what.

26:08Andy Greenwald:And you could feel it. You could feel it in the pressure placed on each one, on the greater impact of the missteps. And then how do you, I mean, it just depends what side you're looking at it on. If you're looking at it from a like corporate and creative management, getting this movie into theaters this year with Robert Downey Jr., with the Russo brothers, with all this cast returning is a remarkable feat since they had to go zero to 60 with it. Right? I mean, they didn't. It's insanely hard. it's wild in the week since that trailer dropped or a few days now since that trailer dropped seeing how many people are posting the infinity war trailer and being like god damn we used to be a society for sure and some of that what they're reacting to is how it how those characters felt and i think that it's it's also with hindsight like that we go back and say like this i mean yes that was those those two films felt like such huge events but i think that the midnight boys really touched on this where it's like the relationship we had to those characters was far deeper and well curated over the course of the first few phases of Marvel movies which also had their missteps.

27:15You know, we forget that we had Thor Dark World and we had, you know, a Black Widow movie that went into the abyss.

27:21Andy Greenwald:But the charm of Endgame was that it made Dark World incredibly important. Yes. I guess Black Widow came after Avengers, right? Yes. But I think to me it's what you said. It's like, do you have an organic relationship with actors and roles that build over time. Do you're excited to see them again? Or do you have this forced artificiality nostalgia that all of the multiversal movies essentially have become, whether you're wink-winking at how silly it is that Chris Evans is playing Johnny Storm, or you are somehow building a major plank of your billion-dollar hopeful movie rocket ship on the imagined fucking Mandela effect emotion of Channing Tatum playing Gambit, which I insist on reminding our audience, never fucking happened.

28:11Andy Greenwald:Never actually happened. That movie never happened. And him doing that in Deadpool was kind of another one of these wink-wink jokes of how fun it is to play with how much we know about these movies, even beyond the movies themselves. But now, it was supposed to be some sort of emotional crescendo moment in the trailer that he's fighting Shang-Chi, And I'm like, we don't know this person and we don't care. Do you know this term? I love this in the idea of glup shido. I don't know this term at all. Is this a - This is a term that has been coined to make fun of people who are like really obsessing over the minutia of Star Wars characters.

28:49Andy Greenwald:Being like, what is this character's name? If you're a real fan, they're like, ah, they brought back glup shido. Right. And I think that Channing Tatum's Gambit is the ultimate glup shido of like, there are, you know, dozens of people doing the fucking Leo DiCaprio meme when he's doing it. But also Gambit himself is such like a 90s kid coded. Like that was the coolest thing ever when there was a Cajun guy wearing body armor who threw flaming cards at people. Yeah. And then I would just like turn the page of the comic and take another spoonful of your fucking pasta salad. Mane smeared pages. And like, that's cool.

29:26But like, we're adults now, you know?

29:30Andy Greenwald:So like, I think all of this is to say that the idea of rushing to the multiplex to see something that is designed to clear the decks does not feel good. Like, I think that there is some rebellion against that in addition to the one that you articulated very well and Sean did as well and Amanda did as well, which is like we just saw what ambition can look like when married to some version of reality. Yeah, and James Hibbert wrote a really cool piece in The Hollywood Reporter that identified that people want to feel like maybe the thing they're seeing on screen feels real and that there's like a pivot away from I don't mind if everything in this was pre-vis rendered, you know it has nothing to do with avatar and like what like that's a different kind of level i think of yeah marrying technology with filmmaking regardless of how i feel about it like it's obviously a huge achievement but i think that he you know when you hear about nolan using mirrors so that actors can still feel like they're having an intimate scene when there's massive imax cameras blocking their eye lines and the actors being like it was such a genius using fucking mirrors it's like well like it's so it's so old hollywood to do something like that that when you see and you know this might be alan cumming being cheeky saying like i don't know who i was speaking to or what i was talking about or who else is in the room with me when i'm speaking and you see these scenes in the trailer which again to the credit i give resident evil like the stuff that's in the trailer for doomsday might happen in the first 15 minutes of doomsday and all those people die or they get incurred out of you know yeah and i and i think there's like understood things that will probably most likely be in this movie like like deadpool like multiple spider-men like they're not giving all that away but but it's weird how much we're being held prisoner by this like the most mocked still from the trailer is just this awful blocking negative space room of oh yeah and people have frozen that frame and pointed out the giant doom-shaped hole in the middle because they don't want to give the plot away that he's most likely, if it's anything like some of the Hickman comics, when he's introduced, he's like, I am going to save reality and I need your help as opposed to then I'm also evil or whatever.

31:57Andy Greenwald:Yes. And, you know, I want to, we will talk more about the Odyssey in a moment, I'm sure, but, like, absolutely two of my favorite, favorite scenes in the movie were examples of old-fashioned artistry and restraint, which are just out of fashion and certainly hard to argue for if you are not one of the few directors who can put butts in seats. But like the Searcy transformation scene is theatrical and it's physical and it's interesting. And the way that the camera moves contributes to what we see and what we don't see in ways that you understand that it's quote unquote artificial, but it feels organic because someone's making the decision to move the camera and show that's a human body.

32:41Andy Greenwald:Oh, now it's not. And the other one that I love, and we'll talk more about the scene in a moment, I bet, but the siren scene is one of the best moments in the film for any number of reasons. But one of the things that I've been thinking about ever since I saw it was you just get a glimpse. There's just some figures on the rocks. Yeah. Well, it's actually got a sense of perspective because you're rooted in Odysseus' experience. We can talk about it. And it's more powerful because we don't have to see it. Right. It's fine. One last thing, and this dovetails with us kind of finally figuring out, when do you want to do season two of the agency wrap-up?

33:15Would you like to do it Monday? Or would you like to do it next Thursday? Have you finished the season? I have got three episodes left.

33:22Andy Greenwald:This has been incredibly hard to talk about because the momentum of the season builds really, really well. and I you know when we did our top tens of the year so far I think we both had it low on our list because we hadn't finished it I think it is we also have like a consciousness of like how it will probably go yes we know a lot of the things but but as the season has gone on it has gotten stronger in its in its I think in its pacing in its cumulative storytelling and then also just like the the the the creator's understanding of what they've got like there were a lot of moments in season one where because of the necessity of like churning this plot that it hadn't really found its legs in terms of like inter-office dynamics or like how are we going to play these smaller scenes that can be invented and they're feeling themselves in this season in a way that is like really, really engaging.

34:14Andy Greenwald:We could do either day. I think we should do... I've crossed the halfway point. I'm rolling. I think we should do Monday if you can just because I think that would be a good podcast. My goal is to do a good podcast. Have I let on otherwise? No. I think we should lead with joy. That's what we should do in 2026. And I do think we need to talk about it sooner rather than later because, as you're about to mention, I don't feel bullish about the future of the show, and I wish I could. Well, it's interesting that you should say that because I would like to talk to you about the Taylor Sheridan-ing of Jez Butterworth.

34:48Jez Butterworth, for people who do not know, is an accomplished British playwright. Yes. And screenwriter. has worked on his huge, his sort of big, big play that he did that is, you know, totally an awards magnet was Jerusalem with Mark Rylance.

35:07Andy Greenwald:Oh, his play of his theater, yeah. Screen writing-wise, you know, I think he's done a lot of stuff, but like, did he do any Bonds? Yes, Spectre, Edge of Tomorrow is him. That's right. Black Mass. and then he works with Mangold a lot he did Ford v Ferrari and he did that I mean we don't talk about this but the last Indiana Jones movie I mean he wrote the problems with that probably we're not all together script based you know he is also the writer of the Beatles cinematic event oh the four Beatles movies okay so obviously somebody who is prolific which helps because he has signed up to do another show for Paramount Plus also from 101 Studios which is the studio behind Sheridan's stuff.

35:54Also, most of it was on Paramount+.

35:55Andy Greenwald:Did we establish that with his brother, he writes Mobland and the agency. That's what I was getting to. Yeah, so he's now, season two of Mobland is coming imminently. They had a trailer come out. That's obviously been in the news because of is Tom Hardy on or off the show if they do a third season. The agency, we're going to be talking about on Monday. We love to make a commitment to make the agency. Seems like you should say, we think this will be a grower. and people will, by the fourth season, be like, this is my favorite show, which is kind of how the Bureau worked. Yeah. But so far, no word on whether or not the agency has been renewed for season three, which honestly is a bummer and has dampened my, like, maybe relentless spirit to finish in a timely manner, you know?

36:42Although if it was a week-to-week show, I think I'd be still on time. Yeah. Now he's going to do another show. Why not? called Laird, L-A-I-R-D, starring Kenneth Branagh. And it sounds an awful, awful lot like Scottish Yellowstone. It is, the logline is a proud Scottish family man standing up to an American billionaire who wants to buy up Scottish land, which I think is very funny, given Paramount's sort of precarious position with the Warner Brothers deal and the Department of Justice.

37:11Andy Greenwald:They're diversifying their portfolio. Or making a show that kind of sounds like when Trump came and bought a bunch of golf courses. Listen, two things. One, you got to prepare for after the midterms. We don't know for sure that the billionaire isn't the good guy in this show. That's my next point. My next point is like, what if Local Hero is actually about how it's better to turn things into golf courses? Who stands in the way of progress and good golf. But this was largely like the thrust of Yellowstone, where you take an incredible natural environment. and in this case the Scottish Highlands I imagine uh and you put a major star Branagh Costner and you build like a drama around his trying to save his family and his land it's a very interesting kind of I can't decide where I want to start with first of all it's very interesting that they're like making new Sheridans you know without you mean without him Yeah, and that he, I mean, I wouldn't even be surprised if he gets a piece of 101 Studios shows.

38:13But I thought it was interesting that as he is going to Peacock, as he is doing the Call of Duty movie, and, you know, I think Lioness is coming back in a week or two. Don't act like you don't know. Yeah.

38:27Andy Greenwald:Who among us? Well, now the enemy is within. You've got an iCal alert. um it's interesting that they're looking and and recruiting and fostering and scouting like other people but what i want to know is like how do you write this many episodes of television i mean i i don't know there are people who are super prolific it's almost hard to interrogate this stuff without a like running afoul of like writers guild illicit shenanigans you know or like accusing people of that. It's worth noting that in England, it's not uncommon for the creator of a show to also write every episode. Yes. I would also say that like in a world in which David E.

39:07Andy Greenwald:Kelly did what he did for all of the 90s and 2000s, like... And Sorkin, although... Sorkin used external... I mean, who among... We can't blame people. He was motivated. He was motivated. He found things that helped. As the TSA found. As the TSA found. They found a lot of things. But yes, to your other point about like the British model, like until recently the British model was the creator was also didn't really have the term showrunner was had the term lead writer or head writer and a writer's room such as they existed would be the lead writer calling his or her mates who they used to do theater together in for like a week and they would sit around and they would have a sesh have a sesh you know get a bag bag out.

39:53Andy Greenwald:Bag is Tesco of, you know, some breakfast sandwiches. And, um, I think it's get a bag in actually. Sorry, I'm looking right. Are you talking about Tesco or cocaine? Well, I was trying to do, trying to bridge the gap of some of British people's greatest passions, you know? Um, and then, and then they would contribute, you know, for a week, but that all of the episodes would be credited to the person who then took those ideas and consolidated them and wrote the scripts. I see. Um, the American model is becoming more prevalent there, especially as more American productions are based there but um anyway i'm not i don't know why i'm trying to like explain the butterworths i mean they also they're they're the brother words and maybe they just work super well they might just be like we don't look at twitter we just write you know that's so sick twitter's been really good for like five weeks there's been a lot of good jokes yeah um anyway but the other i think the other piece of it that i find interesting is um well one i'm just can brand not do the accent i mean i'm not putting anything past him he is northern irish i mean I'll be curious to see how he adjusts to Scottish.

40:54I think he's probably up to it. Very good, yeah.

40:56Andy Greenwald:But the other thing, though, is I do think it's interesting to call it, you can call it Sheridan-ing or tailoring, but Paramount, the powers that be at Paramount, clearly believe that this model is expandable beyond Taylor's specific purview, but that delivering a 10-episode chunk of something kind of beautiful and soap operatic works for their audience. that that is something that they can understand as a brand of, like part of the service's brand as opposed to the brand of one filmmaker. Do you think adding a third show to his portfolio bodes well or poorly for the agency's future? The argument for well would be they're making a massive commitment to Jess Butterworth.

41:42When Taylor Sheridan started, he did the first season of Yellowstone, I think it was 18. by 21 he was doing 1883 and Mayor of Kingstown 22 was 1923 Tulsa King which I think he was on and off of as he was with Lawman Bass Reeves and then he had another push of like Lioness and Landman and then 26 he did the Madison and Dutton Ranch and while all this is happening he is heavily involved with or fully writing other seasons of the aforementioned shows. Butterworth, in the last couple of years, Agency premieres in 2024 with 10 episodes of that. The following year, Mobland goes up 10 episodes of that, I believe he wrote all of those with his brother.

42:32And now this year, another 10 episodes of the Agency, I think Mobland, I think is coming back this year. So that would be 20 episodes of TV that he has produced this year. Do you think there's a sign that this is like the agency didn't work, but we believe in you? Or do you think it's like, hey, we're just in your business?

42:49Andy Greenwald:I think they're in his business. And I think there's nothing in his CV that suggests that he and his brother couldn't do a third season of the agency if it got greenlit. Particularly because it is a different job than these others. It is a lot more than like sonography, but they do have broad outlines of plot so they can sit down and be like, here's what we have to accomplish and here's how we. So the job becomes dialogue, specificity, and making it in the voices of their slightly evolving characters. I'm very concerned about the future of the agency. But in ways that are incredibly opaque and frustrating and indicative of what TV is these days, I still cannot fathom how expensive this show is to make and produce.

43:32Andy Greenwald:The talent on screen, the location shooting on screen and across multiple countries, the producers involved, all the people getting paid for every episode. That's kind of an underreported thing or not as well understood aspect of where the money goes. Yeah. When you see, you think that, oh, this show must have had its budget slashed. Not necessarily. If there are upwards of eight executive producers and one of them is named George Clooney, like everybody's getting a taste of everything that gets made. And then it's a question of like return on investment as well. And regime. because this show survived somehow out of, you know, this was going to be a Showtime original.

44:10Andy Greenwald:And now it's, you know, a binge drop on a random weekend on Paramount+. So it's rare for shows to thrive across administrations, let's say. And then I think the fact that clearly from our mentions, people are finding the show and loving it. But I don't know if it has inspired what I would call a hot fandom. I don't know. I don't. I think Paramount Plus is also the other streaming service for a lot of people who listen to us. There are some who are like, I enjoy the Taylor Sheridan content or whatever. There's a lot of people like, I don't have Paramount because I'm not interested in Taylor. And that seems to be the main thrust.

44:50Or UFC or whatever else. Or Elspeth or whatever else they've got on it. So I don't know. I think he can make it. The agency went up June 21st. first they released all 10 episodes you could make the argument that they are waiting 10 weeks to announce that there there's some idea of like you know people watching it in a week-to-week format or once a week and we're waiting to get the cumulative number back yeah my guess would be

45:18Andy Greenwald:that there has been a lot of action behind the scenes trying to salvage a future for the show and whether that means making the case for doing a third season in a different way or budgetarily different, or if it means the studio's actively shopping it to seeing if it would fit better with a different network. I think all of that is possible. It just doesn't seem like... How often do we talk about that versus how often it happens? It happens very rarely. Yeah. It's very complicated. We'll do Agency on Monday. Okay. I'm happy to do it. Let's talk about The Odyssey. Now, Andy has already mentioned a couple of his favorite scenes.

45:54It goes without saying that this is spoilers for The Odyssey. It seems like many of you have seen it already. It seems like it's doing fairly well. Just straw poll. Anybody, who else in the room has seen it? Kai, Sarah, not Kaya. I'm trying to see it in IMAX, okay? It's a hot ticket. It is a hot ticket. I have tickets to go see it next Friday.

46:11Andy Greenwald:I have to say that was cool. Like that I'm not really, you know, I'm not really a format snob, but I was like, if given the opportunity and living in a city that I believe has more IMAX projectors than most, let's say, if not all, I very as you learned too casually said I'm just going to go see it tomorrow on the weekday morning yes and like these 7am screenings were sold out yes it's a tough ticket to get I went so I went once at City Walk which is the IMAX 70 and I saw it once on just a quote unquote regular IMAX and it's weird I think I preferred the second screening possibly because a lot of I knew where I wanted to lean in and hear a line of dialogue that I may have missed.

46:59You know, there's there's a scene early on when Penelope and Odysseus are in bed and talking about like he's going to have to leave. And she's just like, what if we like ran away and what would happen? And it is crucial to understanding a bunch of, you know, the state of their marriage, the state of Ithaca, Agamemnon saying this is about Helen of Troy. but it's in fact it's about trade routes it's about trade routes yeah so there's a lot of stuff that i picked up dialogue wise the second time around the screen was also maybe it's a it's a totally a personal preference thing i like to see like the whole screen kind of in my static line of view right rather than scanning up and down the way you do at city walk 70 um i even had that problem sometimes in the Cinerama Dome, which is blessedly reopening here in Los Angeles, where you would be kind of pan and scanning yourself across the horizontal line.

47:59I don't know why we're getting into aspect ratios. Exciting. I was very excited for you to see this movie. What did you think?

48:06Andy Greenwald:Can we talk aspect ratio? No, I mean, I don't know enough to know the difference. And I also didn't know enough that there are hot spots for sound or not sound, especially if if you're not in a theater personally curated by the Nolan Family Trust. Yeah. So we were kind of like upper left because those are the seats that were left. Yes. And so we were seated directly underneath the speaker, which was very worrisome when you're watching trailers and also like, you know, Gigi Fruit commercials that are not exactly like delicately. And then when the movie starts, it was cool because I was like, wow, they really did a lot of ADR of dudes, you know, bathing in the background of the scene.

48:45Andy Greenwald:or like, wow, the Temple of Athena is a busy place. Yes. So there was a lot of that, but it was clearer than I had expected. But again, these theaters, you could have the right format, but there was still like the line of the seats in front of me was doing what people are saying the 35 millimeter print does. So I was losing the bottom of the frame. Anyway, it was, I think it's tough to articulate any strong opinion about Nolan because he is an industry unto himself. And anything that he does at this point, particularly a movie like this, is worthy of consideration. Like, it was such a great experience to go with my daughter who went for three reasons.

49:28Andy Greenwald:None of them were IMAX or spending the day with me. They were named Tom Holland, Zendaya, and Greek mythology. Oh, I thought maybe... Of which she's passionate about all three. I thought maybe R. Pat's got... She likes him, but she's not like a Twi-Hard, you know? She doesn't really have the... She liked him in good time, mostly. That's like her way in. So it was really great to have the experience and then have the long drive home. We did not see it nearby. To talk about it and then to keep talking about it. How great an experience is that? Not just for dads and daughters, but for those of us alive these days who can go share something with people.

50:08I think it's the gift that he gives is that his films, whether they are espionage puzzle boxes like Tenet or you know photorealistic war movies like Dunkirk or space movies or whatever they are you wind up just like chewing on them for weeks afterwards and wanting to re see the to see them again and revisit them immediately because you're like did I miss something here and yeah I wonder how the second act feels once I know where it's going And there's a lot of like, I think when, you know, sometimes with his movies, the first run through is just almost like a purely physical experience or a visceral experience where you're like, oh, my God, like my hearing is shot.

50:52Like, I feel like I've been on these mountains and been on these boats and like been thrown against the waves. And now that I can see it, I'm watching like, oh, this is the first time Odysseus acted like a prick here in this like little scene. Right. You know what I mean? And, you know, he he obviously had this arrogance or what makes Penelope say that at this moment? And like, you know, obviously, then I think, you know, some of the greater themes and the more contemporary themes that Nolan's playing with start to emerge. Did you did you feel like you were able to like discern like how you liked the movie?

51:27Yeah. Like that was a hell of an experience.

51:29Andy Greenwald:Well, I think I am not as big of a Nolan head as all other men in their 40s who have microphones. I think you'd be surprised. And I also think that there are Nolan guys who are like, I'm a Dark Knight guy. There are Nolan guys who are like, I like Memento and Prestige. There are Nolan guys who are like, the last three movies are his best. I mean, I think he is a fascinating filmmaker. I find him so, I mean, he doesn't have a funny bone in his body. and him talking about how he really likes MacGruber reminds me of Steve Carell talking about Women's Breasts and 40-Year-Old Virgin. I find his movies, they leave me very cold, generally.

52:08Andy Greenwald:So I did not, I enjoy the spectacle. I do not feel particularly transported by them, except in some occasions. So you like never forget you're watching a movie is what you're saying. You're not like, I've lost my sort of inner brain here. I found Oppenheimer really, really compelling because of all of his movies about lost men who have to work all day and only feel slightly bad about it. It is about someone who loses himself in technicality and science, for lack of a better word, and struggles over that being his version of soul. And that, I think, is a very autobiographical thing as opposed to, like, in a different way than Interstellar, which is just about how, like, you know, it is hard to work on location sometimes.

52:55Andy Greenwald:but that's but but I but I but I found that really interesting and compelling in Oppenheimer and also one of the ways that I would I'm eager to continue the conversation is to lower the temperature from and you don't do this but like just because he made a movie doesn't mean it's the best movie ever made or the best movie he's ever made you know so I I think that when you get to think about all these movies in conversation with each other and where his muse is taking him and where his relationship with commerce and the town is taking him is very interesting all that to say like I thought that at its heart, this movie was so wildly audacious because it's fucking nuts to be like, I'm going to do the epic of ancient Greek battle poetry and make it about modern life in the way that he did.

53:40Andy Greenwald:And also it's a swords and sandals epic, which is incredibly out of fashion and has a long history on the screen and is often campy, right? Or leans in other directions than a typical Nolan. Yeah. uh, movie. That said, I also thought some of this was ludicrous in good ways. I kind of want to know what you thought was ludicrous. Um, I mean, there were just moments when I was watching these actors, some of whom I thought were giving it their game best, but were wildly miscast speaking like they're in the fucking 10 commandments. But then, you know, the music's like, and it's about like how we should feel things.

54:17Andy Greenwald:And I'm like, that's a horse dog. Like that's a big wooden horse. Like, I know you could talk about how you were in there bleeding and shitting on each other but like it's absurd on some level what do you mean that they well no i mean just like think about what we're talking about or like how i like the movie pattinson was in was my favorite movie i would say because he i mean you saw this like you saw it and he's talked about it but also you see it on screen that his his uh north star for the part was james woods and Casino. Yes. Which is such a great pull and exactly right and fun and funny and more alive in some ways than some of the other.

54:57Andy Greenwald:He's also Pattinson could be very knowingly full of shit in interviews but he also made a very compelling case for why is it Antonius? He's like she should have chosen me. She should have chose me. He had a lot to offer. Yeah he was like I was making the case and he was like I don't think he had a hard time believing he's a sniveling dickweed in the movie but he's a fantastic villain and also i love there's so much maintenance going on for like people like who will be like i can't i can't portray this kind of character i have to make sure like the the ride is always going uphill or whatever and pattinson and possibly chalamet are my favorite dudes when it comes to just like i'll i'll play a piece of shit yes and batman you know what i mean like i don't i don't need to and the movie needed some of that i think in some of the other places as well um i thought the the the intention you didn't like the idiom that it was spoken in or like maybe the accents that the fact that they chose everybody to sort of like i didn't like it i was like well because the the the macro point i want to make is you can't do this without making some pretty definitive fucking choices and i like that he made those choices i didn't personally respond to or vibe with some of the choices like i i think i'm i'm continue to be kind of struck by how drab the movie is, like in terms of the colors and the palette and what it looks like.

56:20It doesn't actually feel super Mediterranean, but there was, there's a choice

56:24Andy Greenwald:behind that and what he's doing. And I'm like, I find that interesting. So I want to like dig deeper and talk about it, but I didn't like, I wasn't transported by that. Um, you know, the, the, the scenes, the scenes with the suitors just felt like one, like micrometer away from being super campy and silly. And Pattinson was yanking it in one direction, but, you know, the heaviness of the movie and of the journey was pulling in the other direction. So it seemed a little bit in conflict with itself. But like, you know, I know Emily Wilson here, like the Odyssey itself, like all Greek myths is like about an ancient world in which gods were deeply flawed human actors who are fucking things up all the time.

57:06Andy Greenwald:And that's interesting too. And he intentionally didn't do that. Yeah. Which is a absolutely, I mean, he doesn't need me to say this, but I find that a really interesting and compelling choice. Very bold choice. And so - And I honestly wonder whether or not it speaks to, whether you want to call it spiritual bankruptcy or like pragmatism on the part of contemporary audiences that they would be like probably pushing up against it if Zeus is around there, like flipping boats over, you know what I mean? Well, or Thor. I mean, I know it's a different mythology, but we were used to seeing gods on screen now.

57:37Andy Greenwald:So it was more interesting not to and that to make his ultimate. But they had to make Thor more like Tony Stark for him to be a hugely popular character when he was doing like Dark World's like Odin shit. But people were like, but Hermes is a James Gunn character, you know, like these these dudes. But truly, like the first thing Hermes did when he was born was crawl out of a cave, fuck around with Apollo's cows, which is relevant to this conversation. kill one, take its sinews and make the first lyre and just started playing music. And Apollo was like, what the fuck's up with this baby? Yeah. Why did this baby invent music and kill my cows?

58:14Was there no music before that?

58:16Andy Greenwald:Well, not like rocking, you know, fucking Chris Pratt with his Walkman kind of music. I'm trying to like square the circle here. But the other thing that he is so uniquely good at that we almost take it for granted is making cleverness and making the three act structure, even with like asynchronous time, like making it reveal the reason for the story late in the game. It's the prestige idea. Like it's basically the late period and this is the secret and this is the reason. And what did Einstein say to him in Oppenheimer? And in this movie, the idea that the people from the sea were them all along, that they broke the world, that he's made this movie because it's about the end of one era into another and then the different ways in which he backed it up, like with the completely anachronistic metal armor on the giants.

59:04Andy Greenwald:you know, Wow. Being like, well, like he saw the future and in the future the world is literally changing. The trees are going around them and stuff. Bronze to, to, to, to iron metal. Like, I love that. I love the thinking behind that. But I think that, I'm not trying to fight what the movie is, but I think that my, my relationship with this movie in particular comes up against that, which is, I love the thinking. And then, there were moments though of absolute transcendence, like, um, hiring the great, clown Bill Irwin to be the Cyclops and so to physicalize him and then to linger not just on his monstrosity but on his humanity and have him weeping in pain.

59:47Honestly, that dude's life

59:48Andy Greenwald:was pretty good. He's just making cheese. And apparently pretty good cheese. In a different world, he just brings it to the market. He can watch the agency at the pace he pleases. Yeah, and every Saturday he goes to the green market and Montrose or whatever and hawks his wares and, you know, next to the Dubai chocolate lady. And, like, then he comes home with his sheep, rolls the rock back. It's fine. Yeah. Each two guys falls asleep. Well, he doesn't have... I love that the soldiers are ambient to him. Like, as soon as he has two... Instant sleep. It's like me turning on a movie after 9 p.m. A wrap.

1:00:21Andy Greenwald:But, like, this is the thing about something that is, like, worthwhile art, honestly, is that, like, look how excited... I feel very excited talking about it, even though I didn't love it. Do you historically like movies of this scale? I remember seeing Lawrence of Arabia with you in 70mm a couple years ago, and you had like a religious experience. But that also has different qualities than I think some, I think the closest movie, I would argue, to Lawrence is more like Dunkirk. Yeah, well, I think Dunkirk, I mean, this is not my argument, but I saw someone make the argument that Dunkirk is in many ways his most successful movie because it comes preloaded with emotion.

1:01:00and context well dunkirk is my favorite movie of his uh i i think my i i think the structure and his structural trickery serves the movie because in dunkirk everything he's doing is more or less observation there's incredible set pieces obviously there are things that are happening that are absolutely extraordinary you know you essentially feel like a fighter pilot while watching dunkirk but you are never brought inside the characters you know what i mean like except for violence and like you know there are people but like they have there's not a star of

1:01:36Andy Greenwald:dunkirk no because you don't have to because you understand the ticking clock means lives that existed in history and world war ii and the specter of nazism and all that and you you arrive with that whereas the challenge of these of the more original movies and i don't mean to say this lightly is the movie has to do the work not just of resolving the story or making you feel the tension at the end it has to introduce you to dom cobb and why it's important that he does x or y or z thing first and become invested in him in his story so you mentioned that your daughter was very into greek mythology and i take it by the casual references to hermes's liar that you are too dallaire's book of greek myths is probably the most important book of my life that i gave to my children so yeah were you a little annoyed that it wasn't more greek no not in like the like you got to cast like a greek first of all my instagram reels are full of contemporary greece content and island hopping james dimitri has a great guy you know what i mean like it looks lovely i was no i i don't care about that in terms of like authenticity or whatever wish it was more magical and mythological no i i i didn't no i didn't feel that at all in fact i really really liked also that one of the other like card pulls in the, in the end, which is that yes, Zendaya is Athena, but really what he's seeing is the priestess and the crimes and the way that they, and the idea of Zeus's law being like, you don't know who is a God or who isn't.

1:02:59Andy Greenwald:Um, I thought that was very elegantly done. No one can do that, what he's doing. I mean, in terms of taking the most complicated ideas, themes, uh, narrative devices imaginable and making them feel, I mean, his movies are effortful, but it does not seem overly complicated, honestly. It communicates. Yes. I think, and that's one of the reasons why, in addition to the spectacle and the stars, that everyone's going to see the movie, because I don't think people are leaving casuals or leaving this movie being confused by things, you know? I think people are going, because every couple of years, something like this comes along, and I remember going backwards to Jurassic Park in my life, at least, perhaps in the 80s with Spielberg movies.

1:03:41but Jurassic was the first time that I was conscious of the fact that like that and Batman where it was like no we're all going like you know and it doesn't even matter if you can't remember the name of Triceratops or you don't know anything about Joker like this this seems to have crossed over into a I go to the movies twice a year but this is going to be one of them kind of thing I think also you mentioned the stars and you mentioned um yeah I want to talk about the I think really wonderful promotional effort that's been made by these people because I think despite how hard it is now with like they're like make a pizza and hold a puppy and take a lie detector test and all the stuff that like I think is the necessary for keeping the apparatus going of of social media based interview shows or whatever.

1:04:30they are always foregrounding the craft of filmmaking the importance of how no one made the movie they are telling like the same anecdotes over and over again with the same amount of gusto and you can tell it had a profound effect on every one of them now if there's somebody there who's just like this one sucked you know like i'd love to hear it but all of the people involved in this movie seem to be like it was really special that i know that this movie is going to last for 50 years, 100 years, and people are going to be watching it and they're going to go back and be like, that was fucking incredible.

1:05:00And I think it had a huge thing to do with it. That being said, I was curious about some of your takes on some of the performances in the film.

1:05:06Andy Greenwald:I think, I think there's a wild disparity. And I, and again, like one of the things that's been fun about this era of star directors is that the, the company, you know, all great directors have the people they like to work with. Some, some more pronounced than others, but like seeing that go so super mainstream with like we and also it's a it's a winnowing of what actors really work because the overlap between all the big movies of this year is quite striking i mean pattinson's in five movies and day is in and form four or five movies like it's it's crazy but i i like his allegiance to actors i do think that actors love working with him so i'm not criticizing him again but there is sometimes i see people one thing you never see in a uh like a pta movie or a wes anderson movie is you don't see people caught out you know he casts people because he sees something in them or he knows them so well and he puts them into positions to like you think no one is like those guys i don't think he's like that because i think his the star often is the storytelling device and the camera and the and the shot and everything and so i think there were some actors who got pantsed in this movie in ways that I didn't, that I thought was a bummer.

1:06:19Andy Greenwald:I think, I think Tom Holland is really in way over his head and I find him to be an absolutely charismatic and delightful performer. And it was rough. So second time around with him was drastically improved. Really? Yes. First of all, you're prepared for the accent. You're prepared for the manner. So you're not like, did this, did this dude get like, like shook or whatever? Like it's also, I find it, I found that his performance was very consistent with the truth of his character, which is like pretending that he's ready for something that he is completely unprepared for. Now, is that a convenient explanation for maybe a performance that doesn't like have like a ton of emotional resonance?

1:07:02Perhaps he doesn't really get a moment like being strapped to the mast. You know, he doesn't get a moment. Yeah. and he's often paired with people who are not only more seasoned performers but older characters so Penelope's experiences and her pain are a little bit more earned than Telemachus who's like I think I'm ready you think I'm ready and she's like you're not fucking ready I mean that's the point so I think that he has not done a lot of favors because he's got to go up against Anne Hathaway then Bernthal and then Pattinson and then Pattinson

1:07:38Andy Greenwald:and then Odysseus comes back. But yes, like I understand that it's not everybody's cup of tea. I mean, there were two things that made me laugh out loud in the movie. One was what happens to Corey Hawkins. We don't need to spoil that for people, but it's like that had to be intentionally funny. But the other one was when Odysseus and Penelope are like, okay, we're leaving. Like, make sure to like, you know, don't leave the stove on, son. And he's dressed up, you know, like, yes. I was like, this is not going to go well for Ithaca. Does it go well for Ithaca? I actually don't know the sequel. The larger Homer expanded universe.

1:08:16Andy Greenwald:Yes, I also didn't fully vibe with Anne Hathaway's performance. I didn't fully... I didn't... I'm sorry to say it in this podcast, but I thought Burnfall was pretty ridiculous doing the same thing in this movie. I thought some people popped in smaller ways, like Samantha Morton as Circe is awesome. Leguizamo is just, I loved. I love because that's showing us someone. I mean, this was, in small ways, this is John Leguizamo's digger because it turns out he's like 65 and just really, really doesn't look it. Yeah. And I just liked that that was him. And there's something about, he seemed, it seemed like an old movie performance, like someone in, you know, like Edward G.

1:09:03Andy Greenwald:Robinson in Ten Commandments or something. Sure. In a way that I was like, this is cool. This is surprising. This is a person I haven't seen before. This is an actor I know seeing him in a different way. I think he also, this is not my favorite Nolan script. Right. You know, like I think there's two ways of looking at that. Is it structurally not my favorite? No, I actually quite like the structure. I wish there were more moments of character rather than informational dead drops for a lot of these characters. And I thought Leguizamo and Himesh Patel did the two best jobs of being like, I know I have to mention Zeus's law or talk about this thing that's happened and may happen again.

1:09:48But they felt like very real people. And I thought Bernthal did too. I thought Bernthal the second time around, like when you know the accent is coming and it's not even an accent he's just doing Bernthal like I think I liked the fact that everybody more or less did their voice and it's honestly it was really funny I the second time around like Damon when he's like this cheese it's pretty good like I was like this is the most Boston just jumped out Odysseus I know and I like that I the thing

1:10:19Andy Greenwald:about Bernthal like this is a longer conversation but like watching him do some of this press and I'm like, oh, he just seems like a nice man who also went to a private Quaker school. Right. And then as soon as he's on screen, every year since I don't know what, he just does that. And I would like to see a different shade, I would say. But clearly he's hired for, this is like the most insulted you've ever been on this podcast. I don't think you have to limit men who went to friend schools, you know? Like they should have whatever they... Well, I think you could bring a little bit more of the light within.

1:10:47I don't need an actor to be authentic to his off-screen persona. I'm not saying he needs to do that.

1:10:52Andy Greenwald:I'm saying that there are other color crayons in the deck. You know what I mean? In the pack. He's doing more Marlboro light rather than the light within. Do you get what I'm saying? And surely you among all of us understand that there are both twin flames burning at both ends. The Agamemnon piece, you know? But like having that be a Safdie who you never see, you know? And the idea that it was all for... Show me the Safdie. No, but it was all just greed, and he was undone by the things he wasn't paying attention to. I thought that was all just very well woven. Yeah. We mentioned the two scenes that I like best.

1:11:32My favorite, just to throw another one in there that you didn't mention, was the Hades scene.

1:11:38Andy Greenwald:Oh, sorry, that's the best scene in the movie. Thank you. That's what I was building to. I thought that was the most. And I wonder, let's talk about that. Was it the best scene in the movie because it was the most otherworldly? I mean, I know there are monsters in other scenes, but like, I thought that scene was so beautifully conceived. It was so haunting and I never wanted it to end. And then it ends in an incredible way. Yeah. And the way that he turned that moment into a vehicle for the narrative that he's been telling was masterful. I thought that was an incredible scene. Another one that just got so much deeper the second time around for me.

1:12:12I didn't notice that Yovana Depo, first of all, like the first time, I don't even know if I noticed that Yovana Depo was in the movie. And he's then comes out when Sinan and Agamemnon are done talking and is like, but you're old, the people that you've already lost on this voyage want to have a word with you? Yeah, we have some things. And that's what, like, that's when the army of the dead run after him. I just thought that was, I mean, the guy fucking went to Iceland to shoot a scene. Like, that's awesome. That's what that was.

1:12:40Andy Greenwald:Yeah. No, it's incredible. and he's afforded opportunities that other people don't, but he makes the most of them. What do you think? I still think this movie's going to cost a lot less than Doomsday, though. I mean, like, people act like it's, and I don't know whether actors are taking discounts for him because they get to be in this. Zendaya got scale, I would say. Yeah. I'm pretty sure. What do you mean? What does that mean? Your day rate. Like, you're not getting, you're not getting the Zendaya starring in a movie. She's doing it because she wants to do it. Right. Right. But, so let's talk, let's talk Damon.

1:13:09Sure.

1:13:11Andy Greenwald:I love watching Matt Damon in movies. I just think he's just a naturally charismatic actor who is also a movie star. And it's just such a good use of him because I never really get tired of watching him in movies. And you don't. So he wears well over the course of this movie. Sure. When it was over and I was reading more about it, I saw Sean talking about this, that like it seems pretty clear that he probably went to Christian Bale first or that that's a, is that official? or we just think that? I don't think that that's... That's not been said. That's not been said. I think Sean and I and Amanda talked about who else could have played this part, and I think Sean was like, Bale is the one that nags at me.

1:13:50Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I wondered that as well. What worked for you in the performance, and do you have any notes or quibbles? I mean, physically, I thought he captured... The way he shaped his body, I thought, was perfect for the historical era that they were trying to depict within the reality of the movie. Oh, although, sorry to bring it full circle to where we started this podcast, the man ages 20 years and then straps himself to a raft to float home and somehow returns in peak fighting shape. No salads. No. No weight training. You know what I mean? I think when you have a physically active lifestyle, you can compensate for...

1:14:36my brother,

1:14:37Andy Greenwald:he spent seven years munching on opium flowers. But every day he has to like, yes, but beautiful seafood. Just like, don't tempt me with the part of the movie that don't make me say that. I wish there was more of that. So you think what Calypso is really doing is just like a small sea to plate kind of situation. It reminds me a lot of this place. I went in Vise off of Croatia where, you know, it's just like the best, the best of the best. They cook it under a bell, you know, what embers, kind of heating the bell. And you were in the best shape of your life. And I was in the best shape of my life.

1:15:10Andy Greenwald:Incredible. Damon, it's hard to distinguish between, Sean spoke about this very articulately, the associations you make with Damon, Sean and Amanda, but the sort of baggage you bring with Damon and being like, I trust this guy. Totally. I don't mind if he does five things that put lots of people in danger. I don't mind the arrogance of thinking that he can only I can fix it. I can defy the gods and figure out Cylindra and Carybdis where everybody else is like, no, you really can't. You know? Yeah. And again, the end of the Calypso sequence, the first time around, I don't even think I was really processing it.

1:15:55And the second time I was like, oh, he has to give himself over to fate rather than try to conquer it.

1:16:02Andy Greenwald:I think that his innate goodness and trustworthiness may have worked against some of the deeper themes of the movie because I was, I don't think I'm like, I'd like to think that I run towards moral nuance in storytelling. I'd like to think that. You know, I hydrate, I stretch, and then I run towards it. when he shoots the extra arrow at the already grievously wounded Cyclops, and you're like, why did you do that? And his people are like, why did you do that? That was a real prick move. And he's like, well, he ate some of my friends or whatever, and I have my moral code. And you realize that there is a counter narrative, anti-heroic narrative to what he's doing and dragging these people.

1:16:51Andy Greenwald:I was, that is the only thing that might make me want to watch the movie again, because in the watching, the it almost worked against what I think the casting of him was meant to do which is I trust this guy completely wait why is he letting everybody down I think that he Damon has moved way beyond like that's the Martian that's the guy who I just would like love to have a beer with and would trust with my life like I think Damon is capable of playing Colin in The Departed no he's a great actor I'm not questioning his performance I'm just saying that the way you use him because as you guys were talking about, like you cast people because of audiences' relationships to them as well.

1:17:28Andy Greenwald:And you play towards it or you play against it. That I think some of the nuance of what he was doing and his stubbornness and how his trick unbroke the world was for me and my experience watching it was slow developing. And I don't think slow developing in the good way of the like, aha, I think it was more like, I don't know how clearly that was communicated. Where is that aha from? Oh, is that Princess Bride? That's Princess Bride. Right. Yeah. do you want me to do more no but you've done it a bunch and i'm always like who and then i'm like oh yeah billy crystal it's like the um you know what the the you serious about that i kind of had it decoupled from joe pesci yes in my cousin vinny well this is the the profundity of your commentary is that you can borrow from the greats and then make it your own all six of the movies i remember seeing um i guess where do you want to end i think the hardest thing about this is it is such a major movie and it's a major event and it's deserving of all this unpacking and conversation and discourse i wish this is a this is a recurring thing i wish there were more movies on this scale of ambition and of intent and of thought yeah i know that we could have a spirited conversation about where movies are on that level right and you worry that like this is while great or at least a great experience that it's like, is this a bottle of Aquafina in the middle of a desert?

1:18:53You love, but wait, you love Aquafina. That's why I used it as a reference. That would be a dream. Oh, and I don't.

1:18:57Andy Greenwald:So I'd be like, no, thanks. Yes. Would rather die. No, I don't worry. I want to, I don't worry about anything. Okay. You know what I mean? I just think that. I assure you that's not the case. When it comes to this film, nothing about it gives me pause and I have no reason to concern troll. I think it's fascinating. I think it's rich and I think it's rewarding. Um, I, I, I, I, I'm not good at dealing with the world as it is perhaps like Odysseus in the sense that in many ways we're similar. Um, in the sense that I wish that it was in more active conversation with other big movies this summer. It's like this, not to take sides, but just to have a more like a rounder, richer conversation as opposed to everything else is dog shit.

1:19:40Andy Greenwald:And this is exceptional well i think it's been a great year at the movies so far the movies but on this fucking scale yeah i think it would almost be interesting if this was coming out and then next month dune was coming out yeah but we'll see we'll see how we'll see when we get to the end of the year you know this is this would be a pretty historic run for him to to go back to back with films that he's directed with oscar sweeps or oscar juggernauts his work ethic is unbelievable like if you look at how many movies he's made it's my favorite thing about him is that there's all these now pockets of his filmography to get lost in it's really enjoyable I didn't listen to the whole podcast yet like Amanda was really having trouble with people who like to talk about The Prestige I don't, did she?

1:20:27Andy Greenwald:is The Prestige your favorite? hell yeah I love that movie so much you like Bale don't you? since Empire of the Sun okay I do like Bale No, I, I, I, there's something about that movie. The fact that, again, like I like it when the subject matter is also, there's subjective and objective. Like the movie is a trick, but it's about a trick. And then the monstrousness of the reveal in that movie is so, so, so haunting. Yeah. Inception too. It's just, what's your, I don't have a favorite. Dunkirk is my favorite very easily. and then I think my we just did this but I think it was Dunkirk Inception Odyssey Tenet or something like that Tenet damn I love Tenet I would say I would say yeah Inception I would say Prestige I would say Dunkirk I'm a big Batman Begins guy I don't like Batman Begins very much I think that's the best of the three that's your favorite Rachel Dawes right thanks to Kai what if Rachel Cusk was in that movie thanks to Sarah we'll be back on Monday for definitely the agency recap and we'll see Dragon of course of course I live to serve thanks so much for listening and watching and we'll see you on Monday