‘The Pitt’ Season 2, Episodes 9 and 10, Checking In on ‘Paradise’ S2, and Kate Winslet Is the Next ‘LOTR’ Lead. Plus, Wrapping Up the ‘Industry’ Mailbag.

7:44Andy Greenwald:We have to cover Scarpetta. After reading a review of it in the New York Times, it makes it sound like the most unhinged shit that's ever been made.

7:52Chris Ryan:This is the Amazon adaptation of Patricia Cornwell's beloved series of mystery novels starring Nicole Kidman. But based on this review, seems like they had some different ideas in the room about how to approach this series.

8:06Andy Greenwald:I strongly suggest reading the review of this show, even if you're the kind of person who doesn't read reviews. I read the New York Times review by Mike Hale. The paper of record. Quite, with the gray lady. Doing what it does best. I don't mean to distract you from your larger point it's just that this show which seems to be relatively straightforward in latest press conference

8:28Chris Ryan:Trump breaks norms

8:31Andy Greenwald:that's the split screen no there was a really interesting video essay on why cats always land on their feet yesterday I don't know if you saw that and also if you scroll this is a little media criticism one of my favorite things about waking up bleary eyed in seeing what other wars we've gotten into is that every third image on the New York Times app is Jenny Slate teaches you about AI and hiring. Have you noticed that? Oh, because it's an ad, right?

8:56Chris Ryan:Yes. Yeah.

8:57Andy Greenwald:Just great.

8:57Chris Ryan:Yeah.

8:58Andy Greenwald:Just last call at the money bar. Let's get it done. Sidebar, Scarpetta, deep-pocketed studio, Amazon. Relatively big property that has entrenched fan base. Seems to be straightforward. I mean, there have been a lot of successful shows, as Mike Hale points out in his review over the last few decades, about female forensic pathologists. I love them. And yet somehow with this one, with Nicole Kidden.

9:22Chris Ryan:The second Mrs. Ryan will probably be a female forensic pathologist.

9:26Andy Greenwald:Or Lady Edith from Downton Abbey. She was great.

9:29Chris Ryan:It's one or the other for you. She was great. I loved her.

9:32Andy Greenwald:It's Simon Baker, Bobby Cannavale, Jamie Lee Curtis, big cast. And yet they seem to have decided to make this show in two timelines. Yeah. With young actors playing the same other actors.

9:42Chris Ryan:Yeah. Why do they do that? I don't know, man. We're going to find out.

9:44Andy Greenwald:Okay, anyway, sorry. You're thinking it's not all working for you. Yeah, you know, it's just like,

9:49Chris Ryan:sometimes you get out there and you're just like, God, something happened to my shoulder. But the reason I bring this up is just to say, I think I got a little spooked by seeing others say, I love DTF St. Louis. And I was like, is there something wrong with my ear, with my eye?

10:06Andy Greenwald:Our buddy Jason Manzouka said it.

10:07Chris Ryan:I know, man. So it's just sometimes you get a little in your head. And in TV, in general with TV right now, I think I'm a little bit, I'm slumping a little bit. Okay. But I saw this news coming from Deadline.com and other trades, you know, across the board.

10:23Andy Greenwald:But that's your favorite of the Penske properties?

10:25Chris Ryan:It's like, I prefer Penske as just purely as a motorsports entity. Sure. But when it comes to news, I go there first.

10:34Andy Greenwald:Interesting. It is, I still think we don't talk about enough the fact that one guy owns Deadline, Variety, and The Hollywood Reporter. Yeah. and we're giving David Ellison a hard time for owning two studios like that's weirder

10:46Chris Ryan:yeah it is pretty weird

10:47Andy Greenwald:go on

10:48Chris Ryan:and I think the guy who owns Chelsea owns like a big piece of all of it and the Golden Globes Todd Boley hmm you want to bring in

10:55Andy Greenwald:the beautiful game

10:55Chris Ryan:what's his Clearwater Capital I think is him

10:58Andy Greenwald:last week you were talking about Redbird today you're talking about Clearwater my guy Jerry you're seeing the bigger picture now

11:04Chris Ryan:Jerry was fucking dueling with Matt Bell on here

11:07Andy Greenwald:yeah should he come on the watch

11:10Chris Ryan:I fucking wake up every morning dying to do stuff like this. Let's get in a fight. Some TV news that gave me a little pep in my step. Yeah. Tommy Lee Jones is on the second season of The Lowdown. I'm going to say that again. Yeah. Not because I butchered it, but also because I want to hear my, make sure those words are coming out right. Tommy Lee Jones.

11:29Andy Greenwald:Yes.

11:30Chris Ryan:Is on the second season of The Lowdown on FX. He's joining Betty Gilpin as another addition. Which is a big hire. To the cast. Tommy Lee Jones was on an HBO movie in 2011 and has otherwise not been on TV in 40 years. Since Lonesome Dove. Yes. This is really cool.

11:49Andy Greenwald:It's really cool. I mean, it is such an... We spend a lot of time on this show, I think not incorrectly, bemoaning the current cultural moment and the state of the industry. And one of the reasons, or one of the bemoans we could have let out is the fact that Sterling Harjo is the lowdown, one of the best shows of last year. we have no idea how or if it connected with people. And it did get a second season because it deserves one and it's excellent. And FX has a history of supporting the filmmakers and creators that it's in business with and showing a patience with shows and letting them grow or just be what they are for an amount of time, which is commendable.

12:28Andy Greenwald:But then it's not just that it's like we gave you a courtesy renewal. He goes out big game hunting and gets Tommy Lee Jones to be on the second season of the show. Now, having an actor like Ethan Hawke leading it probably helps.

12:40Chris Ryan:It probably helps, but I don't think Tommy Lee Jones gets out of bed just for a good offer.

12:45Andy Greenwald:Maybe he watched the screener of Blue Moon and was like, time to get back in the saddle.

12:48Chris Ryan:No, I think he hopefully watched The Lowdown and was like, that's a good show. I'd be on that. I can see where I fit in there. Betty Gilpin, also just such a phenomenal performer. I'm really excited to see her on this. FX had also recently announced something that we didn't really touch on, which was a new show from Better Call Saul creator Peter Gould. Oh, I wanted to talk about this. What's it called? Disinherited. And it stars Victoria Pedretti, who's done some stuff in the Mike Flanagan universe. I think she was on, I want to say she was on House of Usher, but I can't remember which one she was on.

13:22Chris Ryan:They kind of run together for me a little bit. Kiara Allen is the other star of the show. And it's about, here's the log line, a pair of scrappy sisters thrust by an unexpected inheritance into a world of generational wealth and long-buried crimes. This is noteworthy to me. A, Peter Gold, very interested to see what he does. It's his first show after Better Call Saul. And second of all, it just feels like a good TV show. Like, I don't know why, but like when I close my eyes, I'm like, dope. FX is still like chugging along on the same tracks that they've been on. I know they're with Disney now, developing stuff.

13:58Chris Ryan:And they will make a show with people that most TV viewers are not familiar with. They will make stars rather than be like, oh, if only can we get Kidman to play this forensic pathologist, you know?

14:10Andy Greenwald:Speaking of forensic pathology, it's probably not worth getting into the weeds and trying to, you know, DNA test the origins of every project and development that gets greenlit. But often you kind of can not just read the tea leaves, but read the larger cultural waves that affected this project that they announced, for example, FX a few months ago, we didn't even talk about it, announced a family drama starring Elizabeth Olsen. And that seems exciting. Garrett Bash, who produces a lot of their great shows with Taika and also Ripley, is one of the producers behind it.

14:44Chris Ryan:He's a producer on Lowdown too, right?

14:47Andy Greenwald:Yes, he is. But when I read that news, because I know nothing about the project, I just read it knowing that every single network and streamer for the last 10 years has basically had a mandate to try and crack the family drama code. Sure. They all want to do a six feet under type thing. So this may be unique. That show that we're talking about may be a special flower that moves beyond that mandate. But then you come up with a project like this. Again, we know nothing about it. But as you said, I've never heard of either of these leads or seen them. And I think that's a good thing. All I know is Peter Gould knows how to make television and the log line sounds like an exciting area for a TV show.

15:24Andy Greenwald:And Chris, that's how we used to make stuff in this country. so I do feel pretty enthused about that

15:29Chris Ryan:yeah it's a strange moment I mean I think that obviously there's the pit we're having a great time with that and honestly these last two weeks I'm like is this this is really just the only thing I want to watch I wish there was like 500 episodes of this already DTF St. Louis we talked about on Monday and some of our mixed emotions about it Rooster we also discussed Love Story I will not watch for a variety of reasons.

15:58Andy Greenwald:Daryl Hannah being chief among them. I don't watch Ryan Murphy shows.

16:00Chris Ryan:Yeah.

16:01Andy Greenwald:We've agreed on that. That's something that has freed up a lot of our time in this space over the years. That's true.

16:06Chris Ryan:Paradise, I'm enjoying. Vladimir, I haven't yet to check out on Netflix with Rachel Weisz. And Young Sherlock, we've gotten a couple of emails being like, have you guys checked this out? But I have not. That's on Amazon Prime.

16:17Andy Greenwald:That's a title. Young Sherlock? That's the other way we used to make things in this country.

16:20Chris Ryan:What if Sherlock was younger?

16:21Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

16:23Chris Ryan:Yeah. So it's just, I just wanted to work through my issues here. Did you have other news you wanted to talk about today?

16:28Andy Greenwald:I think you're setting up something that's worth talking about, and we will, because how things used to be, familiar beats in television, playing the hits. I mean, Paradise fits right into that conversation, so we'll get to that momentarily. I have a question for you. It's the big screen, not the small screen. Sure. There is a particular film. Usually, we sit here, and, you know, I don't know, like, conversation happens, and someone makes a passing reference to Moon Knight. I'm like, actually, Mark Spector inherited the Egyptian spirit of Khonshu or whatever. And then you're like, let's go. For instance.

17:01Andy Greenwald:For instance. Just throwing that out there. The one area where, I mean, okay, then there are cooler areas where we start talking about like, you know, alien films and you're ready to go deep on the financial health of Weyland-Yutani throughout the centuries.

17:16Chris Ryan:Shareholder interest, too.

17:17Andy Greenwald:But the one, I believe, IP that you know more than me about proudly is Lord of the Rings.

17:24Chris Ryan:I guess so, yeah.

17:25Andy Greenwald:In that you've seen the movies since they were released in the theaters, which I have not. A hundred times, yeah. So I'm just getting word from My Ivory Tower that there is a new Hobbit movie happening. Yes. And Elijah Wood might be in it. Yep. And Gollum is in it. Yep. It's directed by Gollum. directed by Gollum in character as Gollum. First of all, do they need an intimacy coordinator just for him to sit in his chair? Because if there's a windy day on set...

17:56Chris Ryan:Do you think the PAs just bring live fish to Gollum?

18:01Andy Greenwald:We're in a staring contest. Who's going to do the voice first? And I'm telling you, it's not going to be me.

18:05Chris Ryan:It's not going to be me. I don't do Gollum.

18:07Andy Greenwald:You don't do Gollum? Nah. You thought about it. I saw you pause.

18:10Chris Ryan:I was doing Hal from 2001 yesterday.

18:14Andy Greenwald:That's good. Yeah. And that was your limit? What?

18:17Chris Ryan:No, I just like, I'm just, I'm in a weird spot with voices. Okay. Zane Lowe has been real big on the Rewatch rules. Really big.

18:24Andy Greenwald:I just like it. I was excited because I kind of like it when you get baited into it and you find it in the moment.

18:28Chris Ryan:Yeah. It's also like one of those things where like, I just can't do a New Zealand accent. Like. That's a Peter Jackson accent. With Zane Lowe.

18:37Andy Greenwald:Oh, Zane Lowe is also. Zane Lowe is New Zealand. I thought you were talking about Peter Jackson. I was like, no, no, Peter Jackson isn't actually gone. I thought you would completely black out.

18:43Chris Ryan:Andy Serkis is directing a film called The Hunt for Gollum.

18:47Andy Greenwald:Okay, and friend of the podcast, Kate Winslet, is now starring in this. And I need you to explain this to me. First of all, why would you go look for Gollum? Who needs more Gollum? Second, where did this story come from since they had already turned one book into three movies 20 years ago?

19:03Chris Ryan:Gollum, this is taking place before Fellowship of the Ring, is my understanding.

19:07Andy Greenwald:Oh, so are we going to de-age Elijah? I think so. Sick.

19:11Chris Ryan:I don't, because that guy got on a boat at the end of Return of the King, and he went to the... Spoilers. No, come on, man. You know what I'm talking about. You've seen the third one, right?

19:20Andy Greenwald:What year did that movie come out? Like, 03, 04. Well, ask me other questions about things I did or saw in 2003.

19:28Chris Ryan:You saw me at black and white.

19:30Andy Greenwald:I saw you in black and white after a few too many at four in the morning.

19:36Chris Ryan:Yeah, this is my understanding, is that it is taking place before Fellowship of the Ring. Okay. Because I don't know if you saw, this is supposed to be largely, I know that Kate Winslet is leading the cast.

19:48Andy Greenwald:Okay.

19:48Chris Ryan:I don't know. If I had to guess, just like put me in it, like a gun to my head.

19:53Andy Greenwald:Sorry. Okay, go on. I've got some facts here.

19:56Chris Ryan:I think she's playing an elf.

19:59Andy Greenwald:So the movie is set between the Hobbit trilogy and the Lord of the Rings trilogy with Aragorn and Gandalf searching for Gollum to learn more information about the ring. Yes. So it's essentially a fact-finding mission, but a movie. Hey, weird CGI monster. Can you tell us some facts that will be not relevant to this film, but to the next movie?

20:21Chris Ryan:Well, the thing is, is that we know that their hunt fails. So best case scenario, it's Rogue One with elves.

20:28Andy Greenwald:That's the best case scenario. Oh my God, did you just...

20:32Chris Ryan:But the thing is, is that here's the jam.

20:35Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

20:35Chris Ryan:It's supposed to be largely an Aragorn movie.

20:38Andy Greenwald:All right.

20:38Chris Ryan:And Viggo won't do it, so Leo Woodall is going to be Aragorn, apparently.

20:44Andy Greenwald:You can just be Aragorn now?

20:46Chris Ryan:Well, that's what I don't understand, is that he obviously does not really look like Aragorn. So how young are they de-aging these guys, or how old are they going to make Leo Woodall? And is Kate Winslet, is she just Galadriel, or is she doing the Cate Blanchett part? I don't know.

21:00Andy Greenwald:And Ian McKellen is going to be in it.

21:02Chris Ryan:Yeah. But I don't know. I bet Frodo will be like in the background, like, like smoking a pipe. I don't think Frodo.

21:10Andy Greenwald:What if this is Frodo's dirtbag era?

21:12Chris Ryan:But it's like Frodo can't be hunting for Gollum because when they find him in the Shire, they're like, this is your job now. He's like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. I'm just a hobbit.

21:22Andy Greenwald:What if he was smoking a lot of the pipe and playing Goldeneye and then 64 and just kind of like a 2003 vibe?

21:29Chris Ryan:Yeah. Listening to you. I'm just saying that's pretty cool.

21:33Andy Greenwald:or what if they wiped his mind like Peter Parker at the end of the Spider-Man movie?

21:38Chris Ryan:Do you think that they're going to try and squeeze a trilogy out of this? I mean, if it's really successful, obviously they'll get into it. They're like,

21:45Andy Greenwald:oh, we've lost the trail of Gollum again. Yeah. We must keep going.

21:49Chris Ryan:And they've never, I don't really know, I'm not a big Tolkien guy. I've just watched the movies. Do they ever do like what happened after they got Sauron? Did they ever do somehow Sauron has returned? Is Sauron just an eye? What is Soran? No, Soran's a guy. Does someone play him? Yeah, in the fucking show in Rings of Power.

22:10Andy Greenwald:Oh, yeah, okay, sure.

22:11Chris Ryan:He gets captured, but then his power grows when he's in that tower. And he's in the eye. And he controls all.

22:18Andy Greenwald:Do you ever see the rest of him?

22:20Chris Ryan:Yeah, you see him in when he fought Isildur. Don't fucking look at the camera. Don't look at the camera, Moon Knight. Don't do that. Sorry. When we come in here, we come in here to laugh. You know, we come in here.

22:35Andy Greenwald:We laugh until you start dropping Isildur. Isildork.

22:40Chris Ryan:He gets his hand cut off. Remember, he gets his little fingers cut off by... No, he cuts Sauron's fingers off. With the blade that's broken. And it's Isildur's pain, I think, and they got to put it together. And that's like Aragorn's uncle.

22:55Andy Greenwald:Sorry, I was at parties.

22:57Chris Ryan:Okay. You were at the fucking comic book shop. being like, oh, new mutants. What are these guys up to? Are there new mutants? West Coast Avengers? How do they deal with the time change?

23:11Andy Greenwald:Well, it's a great question. Most of the West Coast Avengers were more like laconic in spirit. You know, it was just like Iron Man and Wonder Man.

23:18Chris Ryan:Oh, so it's more spiritually West Coast?

23:19Andy Greenwald:Yeah. They're like California sober. You know what I mean? That's not true, is it? Well, it was like...

23:24Chris Ryan:Were they based in LA, weren't they?

23:25Andy Greenwald:They were based. They were 100 % based. It was like Wonder Man and Hawkeye. Tigra. You know, Iron Man hung out for a while when he was detoxing.

23:36Chris Ryan:Oh, he's always detoxing, right?

23:38Andy Greenwald:Well, detox to retox. That's what my guy's Fall Out Boy once sang in 2003. A concert I was at.

23:45Chris Ryan:You don't remember Isildur, but you remember fucking the Water Buffalo song that Fall Out Boy did. It seems like you remember it too. Yeah, that's a good jam. That's a fucking anthem. Maybe their best song. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about, an outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day, and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then, because if you don't do it now, then when?

24:25Chris Ryan:Learn more at VW.com.

24:28Andy Greenwald:That's the beauty of this podcast. what a journey we just went on

24:31Chris Ryan:that was watch after dark I have nothing left for it

24:34Andy Greenwald:I got nothing left for the show let's do the pit this is what happens when Kaya steps out by the way chaos we have to get to this because

24:40Chris Ryan:when we didn't do the pit last week because I chose to center hockey

24:46Andy Greenwald:thank you for taking ownership

24:48Chris Ryan:I was like it's okay because I don't really feel like anything super significant happened on the pit right and now if you took that episode from last week and this episode from this week and put it together. We need to talk about the Robbie situation because it's screaming. It's screaming. It was a background note. Right. Then they put it up in the mix and now it's like Steve Albini's kick drums. It's like, you cannot ignore this. Did you download, did you buy from Bandcamp the Albini version of In On The Killtaker? Not yet.

25:18Andy Greenwald:No.

25:19Chris Ryan:Not yet? No.

25:20Andy Greenwald:I'm saving up. As soon as you finish.

25:24Chris Ryan:As soon as you finish the fucking, the Tolkien books you got on your phone.

25:29Andy Greenwald:I got to finish this pitch dog for the West Coast Avengers reboot. Just trying to get my guys at Marvel to really take me seriously.

25:38Chris Ryan:Two wonderful episodes, but I think the big headline coming out of it for me has been Robbie's behavior over the last couple of episodes. So he's given up his apartment to Whitaker in the future, but he's like, hey, you can stay at my place while I'm on my motorcycle road trip.

25:53Andy Greenwald:Which also, by the way, has been a very overt, statement of what has been going on behind the scenes, which is that he clearly feels that Whitaker is his mini-me. And is sort of...

26:04Chris Ryan:Behind the scenes on the show, though. Not like behind the scenes on the pit, Noah Wiley is like, this dude is him.

26:10Andy Greenwald:No, no, no. Although possibly he's quite a supportive boss, I believe. But I mean, on the show, even in this week's episode with his buddy Duke, he introduces Whitaker as one of our most accomplished or emotionally... So he gives up his apartment to Whitaker.

26:26Chris Ryan:If you rewatch it now, like the goodbye to Jack, when Jack's like, I'm punching out before I have to punch back in again.

26:33Andy Greenwald:Yeah, great scene.

26:34Chris Ryan:Great scene. Kind of weird. Kind of like a little bit more final than you would kind of. Well, he's like, am I really not going to see you again? It's like a strange kind of vibe to it.

26:46Andy Greenwald:Well, it also is baked into the DNA of these characters who we first met when Robbie was kind of, sort of talking Jack down from the roof of the hospital. Yes. I mean, there is a morbid streak. They live on the edge. In their relationship.

27:03Chris Ryan:He has shown a general, like, not my problem energy. I think in terms of some of the, like in the first season, everything that's happening in the emergency department seems to affect him almost on an emotional, like on a foundational level. You know what I mean? Especially the interference by the executives.

27:23Andy Greenwald:And the aging father. Yeah.

27:27Chris Ryan:I still think he has his touch with patients, but not with patients when they happen to work for him, where this episode, Mohan has a panic attack after, you know.

27:37Andy Greenwald:Repeated calls from a parent.

27:39Chris Ryan:Repeated calls from her mother and also. What's the prescription for that?

27:43Andy Greenwald:Sorry, go on.

27:44Chris Ryan:And she's also like behind on her applying for a fellowship. and he dresses her down in a way that even like all the people in the department notice, including Dana, who's just like, what's that about? Yeah. So I just find his behavior odd. Now, I think that this is just a great development for the character.

28:06Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

28:07Chris Ryan:It's been fantastic and fantastically rolled out in a really well paced way. What's your read on what is happening here?

28:15Andy Greenwald:Well, there's a couple different ways to look at it. One is to remember that within the context of the show, he might just have senioritis. This is his last day before a much-deserved vacation. And it happens to be yet another in an increasingly bleak series of days from hell. So I don't necessarily blame him for being a little bit of a short fuse about it, particularly because, as we know, he has not necessarily a messianic complex, but he does have control issues and believes that he is keeping this thing together. And so it is threatening to his well-being and sense of self that he might not be necessary.

28:56Andy Greenwald:Because then what is he good for? So just on a surface level, you can accept that. Then you also have to understand that, I don't mean you, I mean, when watching that this is, he's the main character and star of the show and executive producer and one of the writers and an occasional director. And so despite the fact that he is quite, I believe a democratic leader and shares the wealth. This show is this man's story as much as it is the story of the emergency room. So it has to be pushing him in a different direction than he had been before. And it's interesting to see in the context of the first season, which set up the day being an enormous trauma trigger with all of the COVID flashbacks and his mentor and everything that in the end, I mean, it was a challenging day and his mentor's son's girlfriend died and that was hideous and traumatic and violent and awful.

29:43Andy Greenwald:His low point, if you remember, was just five minutes of collapse in one of the rooms. When Whitaker finds him. And Whitaker finds him. And so that's an intimacy that they share, even if it's not referred to. I bring that up because I think in watching the first season, especially the first season of a show that was not guaranteed multiple seasons the way the show now is, I thought we were heading towards a much more

30:04Chris Ryan:significant, like, existential,

30:07Andy Greenwald:not that he would die or something, but that he would be incapacitated or fail and there would have to be a reckoning.

30:12Chris Ryan:Yeah.

30:12Andy Greenwald:That's not what happened. So it does seem like in a slightly different rhythmic way, we're building towards that this season. What I do not think we are building to, despite the loud revving of Chekhov's motorcycle.

30:29Chris Ryan:You're on the same websites I am on. Is Robbie going to die this season? Which camera?

30:33Andy Greenwald:No. Like, I know that television and all entertainment works on, you know, suspension of disbelief. But as I just alluded to, Noah Wiley is the Ducati engine that fuels this generational success that the show already is. Sure. He is not leaving the show. It doesn't work like that. So I hope that doesn't rob anyone of excitement or, you know, of anticipation. Could he get in an accident? Could his face and his health... Sure, could he have a nervous breakdown?

31:07Chris Ryan:Could he, yes.

31:09Andy Greenwald:Could the season end with a cliffhanger of we just got word that he crashed somewhere outside of Montreal? Sure.

31:16Chris Ryan:That would be, he would be making incredible time if he got from Pittsburgh to Montreal within the parameters of this season of television. It's a great point. And if he did get in a crash, driving that fast, there would be no coming back. So do you... That would be like if fucking Tron crashed. You know what I mean?

31:34Andy Greenwald:What if Duke was his late cycle pal? And it was just yet another opportunity for corporate synergy. Yeah. Honestly, that would be sick. Yeah, I don't... Okay, fair enough. Maybe somewhere in Lackawanna County.

31:46Chris Ryan:I was talking with Joanna Robinson about this. Joe and Rob are also recapping The Pit every week on the Prestige TV podcast. and we were batting around worst case, best case, realistic case scenarios for what's happening here. And she actually, I hope she doesn't mind me saying this, was like, what if Noah Wiley wanted to take a kind of more behind the scenes role in the third season and basically like Jack is Robbie next season. For a season. And Robbie is Jack where he's like, at the end of the shift I come in or whatever. It's my first day back after my accident or my own breakdown. I also think that there are threads connecting Robbie and Langdon, who before Whitaker was the prince who was promised, and Robbie's refusal to kind of give Langdon the resolution he craves with making amends.

32:38Chris Ryan:That might be like, you know, be careful what you wish for because you may be asking for the same kind of grace later. I'm just throwing out ideas.

32:48Andy Greenwald:I would predict, here's the thing about The Pit that sometimes is dazzling or dazzling in a way that is both exciting, entertaining, but also can be, can take your eyes away from the fundamental truth of the show, which is that so much of it is still conventional. That's a good thing in the case of The Pit. But like, this is a show that even in the midst of these like remarkable creative pirouettes, a character goes, do cyber attacks happen often in hospitals? Like, it still does that. Like, it's still, that's still the show. Yes. So, it's okay to sometimes do Occam's scalpel and just be like, Robbie's going to get in a bit of a pickle before the season's over and Langdon will have to save him.

33:25Like, it could just be that.

33:27Andy Greenwald:Could be. That is one of the low murmurings of story throughout the season that will get some sort of payoff. I also, not to be overly cynical, but it's hard to be overly cynical in these times, this is a Warner Brothers show.

33:43Chris Ryan:In these times, like Middle Earth, you know? In the second age of... In the second age of man.

33:49Andy Greenwald:I want to say Isringhausen. What was his name?

33:51Chris Ryan:Isildur, dude.

33:52Andy Greenwald:Sure.

33:52Chris Ryan:Whatever, man. You're trying to shame me. You're never going to shame me about this. I remember a character from the first fucking Hobbit movie.

33:59Andy Greenwald:That's cool, man. Yeah. That's great. Proud of you.

34:08Andy Greenwald:This and the slop bowl. We're getting there. We're getting towards something. I guess what I'm trying to say is The Pit is extremely creative and nimble and takes chances and is rewarded for those chances that it has taken. And it's already, you know, it feels like it's been a part of our lives for a while, but it's only been a season and a half of television. That said, it is one of the most crucial flagship shows of the Warner Brothers Discovery operation as it attempts to dry dock onto Paramount. And that is not overstatement. Like HBO Max is debuting in the UK and Ireland and it is debuting with season one of The Pit.

34:48Andy Greenwald:Like they held that show back so that they could premiere with it. Because when it hits the aisles. They're going to freak out. Yeah. They're going to be like, well, we really do have a special relationship with this fail state that can't even fund their hospitals. My point is they couldn't get away with a lot of stuff because of the goodwill they built up, the success they've had creatively, the awards they bring in, the attention they brought to the platform, the stabilization they brought to the platform, the awards they have won and will continue to win. But if you walk into not Casey's office, David Zaslav's office, which he's outfitting with new gold drapes, having, you know, done the con of the century and put people out of work and enriched himself beyond any known possible measure.

35:28Andy Greenwald:Congratulations. That's the point of capitalism. and you say Noah Wiley's not going to be on season three of the show, that might get some pushback.

35:36Chris Ryan:Sure. There's some other storylines that I think are really illustrative of the really beautiful job they're doing writing this piece, this season. Alishimi, who I think has drawn some criticism for being a bit stiff as a character and perhaps...

35:53Andy Greenwald:Was I drawing the criticism across the table for you?

35:55Chris Ryan:And perhaps a bit on the nose with her belief system when it comes to the role of AI and generative AI, you know, in the, not generative AI, right? Yes, generative. Oh, I thought it was agentic. I thought it was just supposed to help you, right? Oh. I don't know. I can't, well, AI. Why don't we ask Jenny Slate? She wants AI in the emergency department and she's just a little stiff, but all the other doctors seem to dig her except for Robbie. Over the last couple of weeks, it has been pointed out that she had not done many procedures or any procedures other than the examination on Dana's rape victim.

36:31Andy Greenwald:Yes, and some baby stuff.

36:33Chris Ryan:Some baby stuff, but had not done... She was more like calling shots from the sideline rather than getting in there the way Robbie and Abbott do. Do you think she's Claude? No, but did you watch her do the trach thing? The slash trach? The slash trach, first of all, as many people have pointed out, if you go and do any reading about what was happening when she was in Afghanistan with Doctors Without Borders. She was probably working for a maternity hospital that was bombed, I believe is the story. And so obviously she's dealing with PTSD from that, but clearly might have like, you know, a shaky cutting hand based on everything that she's seen.

37:13Chris Ryan:But when she does this trach, it's like this motherfucker knows her stuff. And everybody in the room is like, I've never seen that before. So that was pretty cool. and the way that they are not only developing that side of her, but even her reaction to Garcia, who is the sort of head surgeon, when she walks in is just like, what did you fucking use a bone saw or something? Or like whatever she said. It's what we talked about a few weeks ago. She's just like, I just saved their life.

37:40Andy Greenwald:Yeah, she says, they'll be thrilled to clean up your mess. And she said, I think they'll be, maybe they'll thank us for not letting him die.

37:45Chris Ryan:Yes. And you can see as she walks out the door, her like shoulders sag a little bit. Like she's just like, it's getting to her too.

37:52Andy Greenwald:Now, she also says that she has never actually done one of these before. She had just done it on a simulator.

37:58Chris Ryan:Maybe.

37:58Andy Greenwald:Oh, you think that might not be?

38:01Chris Ryan:I wonder.

38:02Andy Greenwald:She also, the other thing that I felt a little bit was...

38:06Chris Ryan:That seemed like battlefield surgery to me.

38:09Andy Greenwald:For sure. That felt like something that the stuff that Abbott was doing the previous season. She's also the one who, despite being essentially a robot for eight episodes, pulls Robbie aside and is just like, be nicer to your staff. Yes. So she has depth. She has layers.

38:25Chris Ryan:Speaking of being nice, there's two ways of reading what's going on with Santos right now. One is that the accumulation of stress over the course of a really tough day is forcing her to backslide, maybe into poor habits about her workplace demeanor and eye-rolling and snapping at people. the other one would be the writers are just more comfortable with her being a mild antagonist and so I thought she was warmer with Whitaker she was warmer with some of her colleagues I think she was a little bit more vulnerable she's still Santos, she's still just like I want to be, you know, I basically want to be the best but like has a little bit of a brusque manner to her do you think this is more like they're just comfortable having that performer and this character be oppositional?

39:18Andy Greenwald:It's a good question. I would say, and I should have said this at the top, I loved last week's episode. I thought this week's was one of the weakest of the season. And one of the reasons is these are not new complaints. These are not fatal complaints. These are things that exist in the show. And when more attention is drawn to them, I remember that I have a couple issues. And one of them is Langdon's return, his recovery arc is very very compelling and good drama good character stuff Langdon himself and he's also very well we've talked about this before Patrick Ball I think is a really talented actor he is also very very pretty and very very lovable with his puppy dog eyes that cause you know incredibly intoxicated young college girls with severed tongues to moon over him they do there's not a single moment in Langdon's performance appearance where I worry that he's going to backslide into being some sort of addict.

40:17Andy Greenwald:It's just not written into the character or in the performance. So the fact that everyone, not everyone, the fact that one of the most reliable drumbeats of this season is that Robbie and Santos fucking hate him and don't trust him.

40:30Chris Ryan:Well, Santos hates him for a reason. You know, because if she was wrong, that would have been the end of her career. And he put her in that position.

40:36Andy Greenwald:I'm not saying it's not legitimate. I'm saying that that drumbeat is not as successful to me because Langdon is just walking around like a puppy dog being an absolute saint to people on the spectrum and anyone else that crosses his path. Is that more or less realistic? I don't know. But it's the way that the character is written and the way that the character is played. So the downside of that decision or the downstream effects of that decision is that Santos feels like she's backsliding, that she's just being petulant, that she's just being annoying. and I think that's not a successful box for the actor or character to be in.

41:16Andy Greenwald:The show moves so fast that all of this can be forgotten by next week. And this episode specifically does move fast

41:20Chris Ryan:because there's been a water park disaster, goddammit.

41:23Andy Greenwald:True. It also, I did want to just note that Garcia, who's making a lot of appearances this season, says to Santos that she's done talking about Langdon and this is a quote, if you're looking for someone to eat ramen in bed with and have sex, I'm your girl.

41:35Chris Ryan:Yeah.

41:36Andy Greenwald:I'm no Monty Hall, but take the deal. You know what I mean? Like, that is a strong... Again, I'm not Montiel. I'm not Howie Roseman.

41:46Chris Ryan:For you, if you're looking for somebody to eat just a beautiful, clean piece of fish and watch Moon Knight reruns.

41:54Andy Greenwald:No, no. Read back issues. You know what I mean? You don't want... Not ramen, because you don't want broth splatter.

42:01Chris Ryan:Yeah, you don't want ramen hands on your sacred Moon Knight text.

42:04Andy Greenwald:Now, I'm going to jump in here. Sorry to be that guy, but you don't traditionally eat ramen with your hands.

42:09Chris Ryan:sometimes you get a little splash right?

42:11Andy Greenwald:Not if you do it right. Moon Knight's costume was immaculate.

42:14Chris Ryan:So is the white wizard Gandalf when he comes back

42:18Andy Greenwald:he was the grey and then he turns into the white

42:21Chris Ryan:when he gets back from the Balrog fall that he has.

42:24Andy Greenwald:Or he's just trying to like go with the political wins oh right white Gandalf no more woke Gandalf nuance.

42:34Chris Ryan:Tell me more about why you didn't like this episode.

42:35Andy Greenwald:There's a structural reason two structural reasons and a personal reason.

42:40Chris Ryan:Tell me both.

42:40Andy Greenwald:The two structural reasons are the pit coaster of the season. This is a me thing, not a...

42:48Chris Ryan:The pit water slide of the season, perhaps?

42:50Andy Greenwald:This is a me thing, not a show thing. I think we were conditioned by the first season to expect calm morning and then all hell to break loose. The cyber attack happens and we're like, hell has arrived. But in fact, they are incredible. They adjust. Things are stressful, but they are basically, we're all getting our prescription nicotine patches and we get through it.

43:11Chris Ryan:If I heard Dana say that correctly, that it is a 20 milligram patch that woman should just smoke. She does! But she should just do it in the ER. We should just go back to 19 I don't know when the last time you were able to smoke in a hospital was.

43:28Andy Greenwald:In Pittsburgh, it's surprising. So I think that the sort of up and down anticipation the episode ends last week like there has been a catastrophe at the water park. Oh, they did a little, what do you call it, shell game and tricked us. It wasn't a cyber attack. It was this that comes on the heels of it. And then, though catastrophic, it appears to be two hideous injuries and casualties. And then we're on to the next thing. So I think I was a little rhythmically out of sync with the episode. The other thing was I compliment the show for this. so I'm not going to be inconsistent and say that I think that it wasn't worth the swing.

44:07Andy Greenwald:But the way that they have found these pockets of we're going to do a quiet moment or a quiet runner through an otherwise stressful episode, it's been incredible to watch and very successful throughout the season. I thought the attempts to make this the mom's episode... Roxy, Javadi's mom, Mohan's mom, I thought was a little clunky. And you could feel the intention in ways that didn't fully pay off.

44:33Chris Ryan:Yeah, it's weird. It's like three makes a trend to make it work.

44:37Andy Greenwald:Yes.

44:38Chris Ryan:If they had just done Roxy and Javadi, that would have probably been enough because it's like Javadi is actually working with Roxy and obviously is going through an emotional reaction kind of seeing this. But that's a good point.

44:50Andy Greenwald:So, again, there's nothing wrong with it. The show attempts to do things that lesser shows would never even attempt to do. And I admire it for it. This one didn't work for me. But the ultimate one was, you know, I can deal with a lot of like, I don't mind seeing the vocal cords or the debriding of finger flesh. But this was hitting my particular vagus nerve center of saying goodbye to children and worrying about children. I thought you were going to talk about the leg getting cut off. That's fine. You got two, you know.

45:24Chris Ryan:uh no like that that you imagine they're looking over and somebody's like washing your leg with

45:29Andy Greenwald:saline i mean of all the things you could be doing with my severed leg that's probably top three it's probably what joe theisman felt like god you've crossed the line sir

45:43Chris Ryan:when lt hit him you knew you knew what i was talking about i remember i didn't think it was

45:47Andy Greenwald:like some random monday football broadcast he's like how'd i get in this position okay anyway that's just like that's tough for a

45:55Chris Ryan:you know that I'm not loving the Roxy storyline is done well this is the cancer patient mother

46:03Andy Greenwald:the show doesn't blink man I appreciate

46:05Chris Ryan:that I am a little surprised that they are under the circumstances they are just like yep you can just hang out in the ER that generally is not my experience but so be it and it's very well done it's become my kind of like, I'm like, all right, I'm going to like kind of maybe look at my phone for a second and just be, but that's just because of personal stuff. Yeah, which again,

46:28Andy Greenwald:I think we both admire the show for doing. Like, I think, I'll repeat myself, but like, if the pitch for the show as we understood it was, it would be like ER, but gorier and more intense in the way that we can do with Prestige TV. I think we all undersold the idea that they would also be able to do the flip side of that, which is actually consider life, death, dignity, and the choices that we make in those moments. So I admire it, but it's a tough watch.

46:58Chris Ryan:Okay, well, we can put a pin in the pit there. Was there anything else you wanted to talk about? Mel's deposition, I don't really have a comment on. I did.

47:06Andy Greenwald:I'm so happy we didn't see it. Yeah, my God, dude. That was awesome that we didn't see it.

47:10Chris Ryan:Although that would be an interesting wrinkle for the show to be like the pit attorneys at law.

47:14Andy Greenwald:Well, that's the spinoff. They could do that, medical lawyers, but I'm glad they didn't do it this episode. What about, I'm going to ask you this. I know industry ended 10 days ago, but Chris, is ketamine having a moment?

47:27Chris Ryan:I had no idea it was so prevalent. I mean, obviously like you hear about it as like a therapeutic and -

47:32Andy Greenwald:And we go to Burgan all the time and we see it.

47:35Chris Ryan:But you, and then as a party drug, but I did not know that they were just pumping people full of K before they amputated.

47:42Andy Greenwald:Or reattached. Right. You can use it both ways. Yeah. Get it off, get it back on.

47:46Chris Ryan:Turns out the horses were living right. The whole time.

47:48Andy Greenwald:It makes me feel... Okay, I have a lot of thoughts about that. It makes me feel better about the whole luck thing on HBO. Yes. You know, because I assume that those horses, though they... They're no longer with us. They're no longer with us, but at least they were, you know, their nervous systems were quieted.

48:03Chris Ryan:They died going to see Fred again and Thomas Bongalter.

48:06Andy Greenwald:At least the visions of them. It does make me have questions about Shailene Woodley's favorite horse in Graceland and Paradise, who runs away during the apocalypse and runs back three years later, looking none the worse for wear. it ran in search of the ketamine found it and just nuzzled around in it

48:23Chris Ryan:do you want to just jump to paradise now then

48:27Andy Greenwald:do you have any Dr. Mohan stuff

48:31Chris Ryan:I worry that her mom is calling a lot so that there's probably something up with her I don't think she's just calling to be like I can't get the TV to not mute

48:38Andy Greenwald:do you think in the spirit of the show's inclusion of family members that Dr. Mohan's mother also has a UTI from having lots of sex Jesus. Do you think that everyone's loved ones are just out there... You're referring to Mel's sister. ...getting after it? Yeah. And that that's what's going to bring them into the ER? Yeah. Just too much, like a hot summer weekend. She's in New Jersey.

48:56Chris Ryan:I think Mohan's mother is somewhere else. Her mother is not in Pittsburgh, I don't think.

49:01Andy Greenwald:What if she rode the Robbie Express and got there really fast? And get the Tron light cycle. Let's say you... Well, you're a social guy. You have a lot of friends. Are you not? What? A social guy or one of your friends?

49:13Chris Ryan:A social guy. What are you talking about? Just because we disagree about the importance of Isildur doesn't mean we're not friends.

49:18Andy Greenwald:I'm just saying that the Middle Earth community that you're a part of, I think, you know, lifts you up during lonely moments. You have people to talk to. You have the horse ladies of Rohan to chat with. Yeah, I do. You know, with all their ketamine.

49:33Chris Ryan:Can we weave this together? I think there was only one horse lady.

49:36Andy Greenwald:I thought there were a whole... See, again, you would know.

49:40Chris Ryan:Miranda Otto played the horse lady of Rohan.

49:42Andy Greenwald:that sounds like the crazy old lady with the horse I thought that she was part of like a tribe of warrior women on horses

49:48Chris Ryan:it's mostly dudes because she's all frustrated that like the women in Rohan are not allowed to go out and be cavalry officers oh she's like I'm just I'm here to like worry about men but I can fight and then she fucking does when she kills that the flapping

50:04Andy Greenwald:why don't you say it's name

50:06Chris Ryan:what is it called winged beast lord of the rings

50:10Andy Greenwald:It definitely auto-filled that for you. Nazgul.

50:14Chris Ryan:Fuck, I'm going to be so embarrassed by that.

50:15Andy Greenwald:That's really embarrassing, Chris.

50:17Chris Ryan:I'm not going to be able to show my face at the next gathering. The Nazgul. She kills the Nazgul.

50:23Andy Greenwald:Which, great. Kudos to her. I always said that women could kill Nazguls, just so you know. Sure. I am a hashtag ally in Middle Earth, Upper Earth, Lower Earth, whatever. People know that about me. My point is, if one of the people in your life was like, do you mind if I bring my friend to the function and then they show up with Duke what is your what are you thinking

50:45Chris Ryan:I mean Duke seems like a great hang

50:48Andy Greenwald:that's my question what would you do I mean I would just be it would it would shade my understanding of my

50:54Chris Ryan:I mean I wouldn't bring Duke to your kid's birthday party but I would bring Duke if like you were like I'm having drinks and everybody's invited

51:02Andy Greenwald:I'm having drinks and smokes I would invite Duke okay alright I'm glad you don't judge Duke or Robbie for his presence in your life.

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53:00Chris Ryan:Here's what happens with modern television. you blink and five episodes are up. And that's the case with Paradise. That will be the case next week with The Madison. I believe tomorrow they're putting up, or tonight they're putting up three episodes of this new Taylor Sheridan show, and then they are finishing it the next week with another three episodes. That's the Kurt Russell, Michelle Pfeiffer show.

53:18Andy Greenwald:I would just put a pin in this to say they filmed two seasons of The Madison, a year apart, two six season episodes, waited until they were in the can, and now they're releasing them in a yearly schedule. And Pluribus should have done that. that's my galaxy take we can talk about this later

53:33Chris Ryan:but then we probably wouldn't have gotten Pluribus until like 27 and it doesn't sound like Vince Gilligan is like I got Pluribus season 2 written

53:38Andy Greenwald:oh no I know but I'm wondering if we can save this for a bigger conversation about these release dates but like what's the trade off and what's better

53:45Chris Ryan:we're just so fully divorced from like the rhythm of like of once a week you know when you're not on HBO pretty much now like except for like The Boys and a couple of other shows like weekly drops are not really a thing I can see why they did it with Paradise yeah

54:01Andy Greenwald:Yeah, Paradise dropped three, and we're already two weeks past that.

54:03Chris Ryan:Yes, you've watched the first three. I've watched the first four. We're not going to spoil anything about it.

54:09Andy Greenwald:Well, not going to spoil anything major, but I think we are going to talk about why they dropped three and where the show focuses and how it has expanded the palette since season one.

54:18Chris Ryan:Okay.

54:18Andy Greenwald:If you don't mind. Sure. The first season of the show was batshit crazy, and we liked it for that.

54:25Chris Ryan:And then it had an episode in particular that we thought was elite.

54:30Andy Greenwald:and about the end of the world. Yeah. And this season, I mean, I don't even know if we want to go specific, granular, or big picture because...

54:41Chris Ryan:Big picture because I think Monday, if we talk about the first five episodes, I think that that would be a better granular discussion.

54:48Andy Greenwald:I really enjoyed watching this show and I really enjoyed how anachronistic and old-fashioned it felt to watch the show. Not dissimilar from what it can feel like to watch The Pit. Not because they are similar shows in tone or rhythm or intention, but because a big old sloppy, we're going to wind all these different outlandish plot threads together and we're just going to keep saying yes and, yes and, and we're going to do flashbacks and we're going to make everything emotionally convenient so that it chimes across timelines in ways that just life actually doesn't work. It reminded me of the glory days of Lost.

55:26Andy Greenwald:Now, it's not Lost.

55:27Chris Ryan:It's not lost, but I think it's very consciously drawing from lost structurally.

55:33Andy Greenwald:And let me just, in the context of the first...

55:36Chris Ryan:Maybe not spiritually and philosophically, but I think it's drawing from the balance of a present-day timeline and a flashback coming together to thematically tell a story about one character every episode. And it keeps pushing it in ways that I really admire.

55:52Andy Greenwald:admire. And the people who are making the show really know how to make TV in a style that is kind of out of fashion. First season, I don't think it's a big spoiler, but like, um, uh, Sterling K. Brown is a secret service agent in a beautiful retirement community slash Florida town. And he's protecting the president. And then over the course of the season, you find out that essentially the world has ended due to a catastrophic environmental disaster. And these are the 25 ,000 people who made it to a bunker created by the U.S. government. The end of the season, in addition to a lot of other insane things happening, he believes that his wife, who did not make it to the bunker with him and the kids, may still be alive out there in Atlanta, and he takes off in a single-engine airplane to go find her.

56:38Andy Greenwald:This season begins with Shailene Woodley as a failed resident at the pit, I believe. There was a little overlap there.

56:47Chris Ryan:medical school dropout who was in her third year of medical school

56:50Andy Greenwald:who chooses to instead become a tour guide at Graceland and due to her medical training or just her natural loner sensibilities survives the catastrophe with her pal security guard by grabbing all of the baked beans and novelty candles and hiding in the TV room at Graceland it's a big swing for a returning Emmy nominated show to do something where you start with a different character and only connecting the dots at the end and then only getting really to the setting of the first season in the third episode. So that's why you were saying, and I agree with you, why they dropped three to sort of hold people's hands.

57:26Andy Greenwald:But I gotta say, like there's just something very, very entertaining about a show that privileges, almost to an unrealistic degree, privileges character development and emotional accuracy or at least emotional, broad emotional accuracy over realism. Like when I watched this first episode and you can speak more, you know, in more detail about it if you want, but like I watched this first episode where she survives the apocalypse for three years, basically alone, two or three years and then armed men, you know, break down and crash into Graceland looking for something and it turns out not only are they all young, good looking and kind and love to reference pop culture, but one of them is played by the guy who played young Captain Hook in the Descendants movies.

58:18Chris Ryan:Thomas Doherty, yeah. He was in Tell Me Lies and in Gossip Girl, too.

58:21Andy Greenwald:But mostly he was in the Descendants movies. And he's, like, flirty and charming, and it's, like, a sweet, meet-cute romance. Yes. And I watched this, and I was like, you know what? This is fucking a lot better than The Last of Us. Because we have seen the version where the raiders come and sexually assault her and steal everything, and she must hunt them down in vengeance. and I'm like, give me this version of the show instead. Sure. Why not? Entertain me, for God's sake. Don't bum me out.

58:47Chris Ryan:I was watching that same episode and that same kind of move that they pull, which is like, we're going to make these guys look like the Reavers are here, you know? And instead, they're just a charming bunch of guys who make references to ABC Family Fun Friday or whatever. TGIF. TGIF, sorry.

59:05Andy Greenwald:And they're going around trying to stop nuclear meltdowns. Friday was a big night for me.

59:09Chris Ryan:I was out, you know?

59:10Andy Greenwald:is that on the streets you're at the Tolkien conventions cosplaying fucking hobbits

59:18Chris Ryan:and the question I have is whether or not the zag is because of a story a person wants to tell or a zag is because it's like everybody's going to be expecting this but we're going to do that right every single episode of this show especially this season has some like god damn you guys are this is happening you guys are doing this now like there was a there's another plan there's a group of lost boys there's yes like you're just like it it engages the part of your brain that is i guess it just wipes out the boredom because i i and i don't know whether or not i ever feel like he's trying to say something more profound about humanity but i honestly don't give a shit because it is sometimes it is just tv and i'm like keep me entertained for 57 minutes and the performances are are good the filmmaking is decent like and the

1:00:11Andy Greenwald:the storytelling is really really compelling and it's also okay and this is also overlaps with a pit like it's okay to say that one of the reasons why we as a society as a people often like um entered the entertainment that we like is because it is neat and ordered and competent and clicks together in ways that actual real life does not. You and I both love a let's turn the camera on and find the spirit of the thing. Like we, you know, you were a big mumblecore guy like this. I am not trying to be like anti art here, but there is also an elegance and a craftsmanship in making an episode about Xavier, like surviving a plane crash and an encounter with the lost boys and popping his dislocated kneecap in without anesthesia rhyme perfectly with his meet-cute origin story in a hospital with his missing wife.

1:01:06Chris Ryan:Yes. Like, that is preposterous.

1:01:10Andy Greenwald:It is hackneyed. And yet, they were like, let's steer towards this and give the best version of it. And I admire it. I look at that episode the way Nick Offerman looks at a nicely made canoe or a chair. Sure, me too.

1:01:21Chris Ryan:And, like, the thing is about this show is it's not very wasteful. Like, there are a lot of shows that I think are, like enamored with indulgences that they get because of maybe their budget or whatever. This show, it's like, if he asks for a blanket, it's because he's going to give the woman the blanket later. You know what I mean? Everything is Chekhov's everything. And there's not really that many wasted lines. Like everybody is saying the one anecdote that will then echo back at the end of the episode to be some sort of life lesson. I think it's really, it's really well done. And I'm really enjoying the season.

1:01:53Chris Ryan:The first three episodes go, we have this Shailene Woodley character, Annie. We get a Xavier episode in the second. And then we basically get a Sinatra episode in the third episode. So Julian Nicholson's back. Took that shot to the sternum.

1:02:08Andy Greenwald:Was it sternum or was it kind of like, looked like she kind of had like an improvised slash trick done to her.

1:02:13Chris Ryan:Whatever it was, yes. And crazy ass Jane, the assassin, Secret Service agent still in the mix. And I like that like, I just love the guessing game. And I think it's just a really entertaining TV show, honestly. I don't have like a...

1:02:31Andy Greenwald:It's okay that it is not trying to educate us on the evil that we are capable of or where we are as a society or anything. It's just like, it's just some preposterous Jenga tower stacking of story and plot anchored by, like I said at the top, like some attempt to adhere to emotional honesty or compelling, relatable, emotional journeys. And that's the bread and butter of TV. Yeah. And we get away from that.

1:03:01Chris Ryan:We've gotten away from industry.

1:03:03Andy Greenwald:Oh, gosh, we haven't even gotten to the mailbag.

1:03:05Chris Ryan:Let me just do this, because I think actually what I tried to do is grab... Thank you so much for your questions, first of all. And people were sending in questions over the course of the season. We got to some of them. Some of your questions were about episode six or episode seven. These are mostly post-season questions that I grabbed. And I'll start here with... And I grabbed these questions with the intention of kind of like spinning the conversation forward on industry so that we're not just kind of like revisiting things that we've obviously talked about quite a bit. Scott wrote in and he said, I'm a first time commenter and a longtime listener.

1:03:36Chris Ryan:So anyway, at the end of season four, episode eight, right after they flashed the title card industry, there is a very quick subliminal image of a very sinister looking Whitney. It's kind of bathed in this reddish light. Did you guys catch that? Thoughts? I did catch it. I also caught Mickey Downs' explanation of it in another interview, which I thought I would share. It's Whitney looking through a glory hole. We shot this entire scene. Is that what you're supposed to do with glory holes? I didn't know that there was like... Is it sightseeing? We haven't gotten to that part of Lord of the Rings.

1:04:09Chris Ryan:We shot this entire scene of him in Lithuania having escaped where he's talking to a man at the bar. The implication being, is that man a potential lover or is it something that's going to be a threat? And you leave him on this moment where he follows this guy into the bathroom and the guy says, come in here, and there's a glory hole. And we shot Whitney through it. If you were eagle-eyed, you'll see it. We used one frame of it, basically. I bring this up, not only to explain to Scott what happened, I'm sure he's come across this information as well, but also, there's just like a lot of industry footage we didn't get to see.

1:04:38Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I'm glad you bring it up. I think that's something, and we will get a chance, I'm sure, to talk to Mickey and Conrad again, but we were relatively limited in the time we had with them because they're busy with season five, and we didn't really get to ask that line of questioning that I think was interesting to both of us, which is it seems like from the interviews with Ken Leung and from interviews like this, that they shot a lot of stuff that they didn't use. And I'm very curious about creatively, the thinking behind that. Is that just their plan? Do they like to overshoot and pare back?

1:05:10Andy Greenwald:Were they surprised that they ended up in that pickle because of the crush of production and they just ended up with more than they anticipated? what is their compass in deciding how close to the bone to cut it. Because again, in that Ken Lung exit interview that he did with New York Magazine, he alludes to a lot of scenes that helped him with his understanding of the character and of the performance and we got none of them. And look, you love sculpture. Sculpture is all about taking away and finding the art within, but also that is a very tricky balance. Sometimes maybe the ellipses aren't enough.

1:05:43Andy Greenwald:All that is to say, I did not leave that finale being like, give me more Whitney in Lithuania. But I think that the inclusion of it is intentional. Yeah. And it does create the, I think, the fair expectation that that story isn't done, which is consistent with the show. Yes.

1:06:02Chris Ryan:Jesse Bloom mentioned in one of the last episodes of this previous season, no one ever really dies on this show.

1:06:08Andy Greenwald:People come back, people show up, people haunt. And I think that's exciting.

1:06:13Chris Ryan:Summit asks, here's something I was wondering about. Am I the only person who was assuming that Whitney's Compromat database included footage of him and Harper, especially since they had sex at his place? And Mr. Narrative is Everything would use this footage as another desperation plan and attempt to flip the script about Stern Tau short of tender. I have to admit, I was kind of surprised that this was never really explicitly referenced again. I mean, like they have that obviously intimate conversation.

1:06:42Andy Greenwald:Yes.

1:06:43Chris Ryan:frankly if they had had that conversation having never met I think it would have been just as weird

1:06:49Andy Greenwald:and interesting

1:06:50Chris Ryan:maybe the intimacy of it is a little bit too much given that they had never met in person it makes sense knowing that they've had sex I do think it's strange that if Whitney is powered by all this blackmail and all this power that he holds over people is footage of them having compromising experiences and now Yasmin is moving into that world herself. I'm a little bit surprised that that was never hinted at.

1:07:17Andy Greenwald:This is an ongoing aspect of our conversation and our criticism of the show, which is how much of this is galaxy brain, like we're supposed to think that, we're supposed to wonder what he has in his back pocket, the dominoes left to fall. And then the, again, and this is not a criticism, there are necessary building blocks of contemporary dramatic television. And one of them, especially in the early going of such a challenging blueprint for a season is you have to get the characters in the same room. You have to get them to meet each other. My more cynical take on the first half of the season that I'm still, you know, I still stand by was that there were a lot of chess moves that were purely to ground things and to set things up rather than to pay off emotionally.

1:08:04Andy Greenwald:And one of them was Harper. Honestly, she haunted the season, as we said to them in our interview, a little bit like a ghost without consequences, really, and without a lot of stake in anything. And so crossing her with Whitney felt like an attempt to ground her, to connect them, to give it a reason to spark the engine of the season in a way. and also to give us some behind the scenes insight into Whitney's psychology and who he is before we understand the depths of his alternative lifestyles alternative lifestyles but also of his potentially of his of his evil and then we never hear from it again so you could argue both ways and we'll see

1:08:47Chris Ryan:and just so everybody knows I'm condensing these questions for clarity in time you know like some of them are much longer and there is

1:08:55Andy Greenwald:much like industry season four you're leaving a lot on the cutting room floor I will say

1:08:58Chris Ryan:if we have time at the end I want to read a rather long but quite gripping just piece of commentary that someone sent in

1:09:05Andy Greenwald:oh boy okay

1:09:06Chris Ryan:Ryan writes in post finale oh sorry yeah Ryan writes in post finale of season four I'm doing some brainstorming on what season five could be about and I think it has to be at its core about Harper quote unquote killing Yaz Harper versus Yaz is what this show has turned into and it should end with that is its core narrative. What does, quote, killing mean? Not sure as it is whether it's physically the end of a life or just bring her to her knees and stop her from continuing the evolution of her becoming her father. Maybe Rob comes back to help her bring, to help bring her down. Stefanowicz has mentioned, Stefanowicz, Stefanowicz?

1:09:44Chris Ryan:Stefanowicz. Stefanowicz. Stefanowicz has mentioned Silicon Valley in his, and Yaz's first meeting, but unless we do a five-year jump, I think that the season would be centered around on a political fight with money driving the center of the battle, obviously. Have you given much thought about season five, or are you just like, these guys now are in, they've left Peer Point and they've left the workplace so they could do anything they want?

1:10:07Andy Greenwald:It's more that than the other. I think there's two things. One is, post-finale, my admiration and respect for the season has grown. We talked about it when we were recapping the end of it. They accomplished one of the more challenging transitions that a TV show can attempt to become something completely different and did so with adding viewers, adding intrigue, adding layers to the story. And by the way, I've seen people completely misconstrue what we were saying. At no point were either of us saying that industry is the heir to the wire or on the same level as the wire in terms of quality or ambition.

1:10:45Andy Greenwald:We were saying was, clearly is the wire is an interesting comparison point for what their goals are in terms of building a fictional society layer by layer. That's purely what I'm saying when I make that comparison. So back to your question. Here's the challenge I think that they face going into season five. I mean, they could do anything, which is both exciting and a challenge. I think that what's very, very clear to me and what I love about the show and our journey with the show and covering the show is that it is so clearly now a successful vehicle for what animates and interests its creators.

1:11:22Andy Greenwald:And there are no ceiling on that anymore in terms of where it could go and what it could say about our absolutely cooked society. I love that. What I don't know, and what I think might be very, very difficult for them to navigate, is it's rare to enter the fifth and final season or the final season of anything where I cannot articulate what its protagonist wants. I don't know what Harper wants. And that has been an ongoing thing. Harper has been about world eating, about domination, about crushing, about not conforming, about not breaking, about not being traumatized. Those are a lot of no, no, no's or everything's.

1:11:59Andy Greenwald:What is the yes? What is the thing that she wants that will bring her to a place of either to a place of completion and success, Daniel Flainview style? Why does it have to be success? I'm saying it doesn't have to be. It's bring her to the edge of it so we understand it. And then we can sit with ultimately the achievement or the lack of achievement of it. It's just that maybe -

1:12:19Chris Ryan:Yeah, like what is she going for?

1:12:21Andy Greenwald:So the fact that we don't know that heading into the last season is, it's just noteworthy. It doesn't mean they can't pull it off, but I think that every successful ongoing show of this era, like even something like Mad Men, you know, which spent, honestly, I mean, it's one of the greatest shows of all time, but there were seasons that felt like circling the drain, where Don was just like, well, now he's swimming, and now he's sleeping with this person. And every season, Matt Weiner would be like, I'm going to empty the notebook. And I've always thought the show would end with him bringing his kids to Dick Whitman's house.

1:12:56Chris Ryan:And that's like in the first season?

1:12:57Andy Greenwald:No, season five or six he brings to the house.

1:12:59Chris Ryan:Oh, brings them to the house. The house.

1:13:01Andy Greenwald:And so what was left in the notebook or in the mind for season seven, unclear, but we always knew what was motivating him and where he wanted to get to. This is not Mad Men. It doesn't have to be. I think the success of this season has proven that they are rewriting the rulebook or even the playbook of what shows ought to be. But I know with interest that we're heading into it without really understanding what its protagonist is going to be doing at the start of the season.

1:13:28Chris Ryan:Jessica writes, all through watching season four, the show has felt a little unmoored to me and then it clicked that PurePoint as a workplace is no longer a physical anchor for the characters and story to keep coming back to. Seasons one through three We were clearly located at Pierpoint, albeit with lots of excursions. The answer for that question in season four is either not really anywhere or it involved a whole lot of plot description. This isn't necessarily a criticism because rudderless drifting is a pretty good description of where our main characters are in their lives. But I can't think of another show that has made this kind of radical shift from a workplace drama to not sure what you call this.

1:14:03Chris Ryan:I'd love to hear your thoughts from a TV writing story constructing perspective. I'll just say one thing. There just aren't that many workplaces anymore. Like I know that the finance and banking world still value and they have a lot of office attendance and participation and a lot of the work happens in person in a physical space. but one of the sort of themes of the season has been the disconnection and dislocation people are feeling and we're going to get to an email about that in just a second vis-a-vis the internet, their digital lives their consumption of the world happening entirely through their phones and through their virtual selves so it makes sense that they don't come to work hungover anymore and have to see each other from across the table now we lose iconic moments from the show.

1:14:57Chris Ryan:Harper's You Are a World Killer. Harper and Jesse Bloom if you click out on me while you're executing you'll never hear from me again.

1:15:05Andy Greenwald:Rishi's constant.

1:15:06Chris Ryan:Rishi buying or selling pounds. So I feel it. And it is probably a show that needed to be 12 or 13 episodes to properly set up the nuances of working out of Eric's hotel suite or Or, you know, all the things that we kind of experience or where. I thought we had a little bit of this at Tender. And there's multiple episodes set largely at Tender, I think. But yeah, what do you make of the location?

1:15:33Andy Greenwald:I think it's well, I think we articulated is right. I think that Mickey and Conrad have been celebrated for being young television creators. And I think that what they are leaning into, and I think this is a really fascinating and bold choice, is they're leaning into the young part of it. And I think the show is increasingly generationally accurate. There are no careers anymore. The idea of wanting something or steering towards something is very, very outdated. And just as they called me on my kind of conservative leaning view or criticism of the show of trying to get, you know, trying to normalize things, look at any show that briefly felt like the voice of a generation type of show and capturing young people or a zeitgeist and how it ended.

1:16:18Andy Greenwald:And specifically, I'm thinking about Girls, which was sort of about, you know, millennial aimlessness. And it literally ends with Hannah moving upstate and having a baby and finding happiness in motherhood. which for the record I find a lot of happiness in parenthood as well sure but I that felt like a it is it's like the third act in a Judd Apatow movie where it's like we can say crazy stuff but in the end it's just about the nuclear family and really you know showing up every day and punching a clock and that world is a fallacy and particularly for young people and I think that the show is very very dialed into that and wants to make something out of that

1:17:00Chris Ryan:yes

1:17:01Andy Greenwald:I also think that that is very challenging from a dramatic standpoint. And that is their challenge.

1:17:07Chris Ryan:Yeah, TV works. TV has decades of blueprints about what works, what people come back to week after week. It's hard to tear those pages out.

1:17:17Andy Greenwald:Your co-workers become your family. And even if you're Seinfeld and you don't hug, you're still about these four people who love each other more than they love the crazy world that they're stuck in.

1:17:27Chris Ryan:This last one is from GTH. It's more of a comment than a question. Oh, great. Good evening, and thank you both, Chris and Andy, for diligently covering this season of Industry. It's been a hell of a ride, a lot of salacious plot details, but from one watcher to another, big ups on spreading your wings and fluttering them above the story to try and analyze it on a macro level. So thank you, GTH. I have been trying to do the same. These two creators have changed this show so drastically, shifted dynamics, pruned branches, made such beautifully idiosyncratic choices on the who, what, when, and where to focus on.

1:17:58Chris Ryan:my question throughout watching this season was why opting against putting out another season of bumbling through the dead-eyed fluorescence of an established financial institution must have been a huge undertaking moving the microscope onto new test strips taking apart different institutions assumptions nations it's so difficult it has to be more of a challenge it has to be more oomph than simply capitalism equals bad right yeah i believe the mission statement of this season's episodes of TV peppered through Q1 of what will be an incredibly difficult year for our species is so much deeper than people give it credit for.

1:18:33Chris Ryan:A subject matter that most movies and TV shows will never touch with a 10-foot pole is capitalism plus the internet as a vector towards widespread ontological fragmentation. Slow march towards dark age mentality. Questions about reality. Your own sense of being. Whether or not this is real. Stemming from an almost religious allegiance towards an illogical set of baselines that we have been forced to bury beneath us the moment we were born capitalism assumes infinite growth in a world of finite resources how in the world can any of us expect to not go completely insane when that is where we are

1:19:11Andy Greenwald:starting i have no notes i agree with all of this harper in the middle of season three sits back and

1:19:15Chris Ryan:sighs and sighs and groans i feel like i'm losing touch with reality to me this moment sticks out as much part of a pattern of the show picking at the edges of its own construction to bring attention to the flimsiness of the audience at home. The multiple allusions to the power that lies within constructed realities. Whitney and Henry's entire back half of the season. Elements like jumping through time and space, picking the last season, the last scene of episode one, back up after 20 minutes of episode two. Even Rishi's final moments before his ankles shatter. Having a drugged out communion with a light coming through the curtains.

1:19:49Chris Ryan:this image of a godly epiphany while charlie heaton explains the world's relationship to itself and the idea of itself multiple ghost dads digital or supernatural all of it man it just speaks to what i think are the creator's main concerns with this show the same thing that ari aster had in his mind when making eddington the same that radu jude had in his mind when making do not expect much from the end of the world the fact that the algorithmic therapy coming to us via unfettered billionaire their id just cannot coexist with the nymphian beauty of the world. Yup. These are our listeners.

1:20:25Andy Greenwald:Daniel, like just cut the feed, by the way, sincerely, Kiki and Monrad. Amen, brother. I mean, that is beautifully said. And there is an element. If, if you felt like there is a, if you're listening and you've made it this far and you've listened to our coverage of the show all season. And if you feel like there is a, any dissonance between my, I think pretty granular criticism of aspects of the season with my larger belief and enthusiasm for the project, it's there. I mean, there's an element of what we do here where I feel like we are focusing on the aesthetic choices of the flatware in the dining hall when they are actually covering the Titanic as it sinks.

1:21:03Andy Greenwald:And not many shows do any of that. And it's a bummer that they're the ones, that they may be the only ones watching on the wall, but I'm glad that someone is making a show that is diving right into it, that is not afraid of now. even as I am fucking terrified of it. So it's remarkable. And the fact that they are doing a fast turnaround to bring this whole conversation somewhat in line with each other, they are, I think they posted on Instagram.

1:21:30Chris Ryan:They already did the first episode. The first episode is into the producers or into the studio or even into the network.

1:21:36Andy Greenwald:So they are operating as close to as real time as this moment in television allows. And that's a very, very good thing.

1:21:43Chris Ryan:That's an exciting thing. got any watch after dark for me before we go I think I'm

1:21:48Andy Greenwald:I feel tapped out what do you got

1:21:51Chris Ryan:I just didn't know if you wanted to hold me accountable for my salad choices

1:21:55Andy Greenwald:oh well I'll say this sweet greens

1:21:59Chris Ryan:having a tough quarter you're doing your best to float them no I mean I'm trying to unwind I've talked about this I think if you have like dependencies on very specific products products you are then enslaved to those products and to these like huge corporations how many zins are in your mouth no this is the problem is that my nicorette is going out of style my salad place is now putting like the bad part of kale into the kale salad my um my toothpaste they stopped making my toothpaste i had to switch to another toothpaste and it's just like when that kind of stuff starts to get to you yeah you need to volunteer for the boys and girls club you need to go do something with your life.

1:22:43And so I'm not, I'm trying not to be a fucking emo guy about my

1:22:49Chris Ryan:salads not being as good as they used to be.

1:22:51Andy Greenwald:I think that's beautifully said. I agree with you. That's how capitalism gets all of us. I was just really struck by your resistance to the slop bowl term because I still believe, and I don't know what your order is. Maybe you've talked about it in other podcasts, but a salad, the word bowl is in the order. Okay. So, and I have no problem with these items for lunch. I just will say that like, I have never been more full in my life than after I order one of these things where you can add like roasted broccoli and almonds and chicken and this, because there's this weird disconnect between the assemblage of roughage that you have and the quantity of it and how you don't feel full until you've eaten the whole thing.

1:23:30Andy Greenwald:And then you feel worse than you've ever felt in your life.

1:23:33Chris Ryan:I feel nothing when I eat these. Buddy. I feel like I topped off the tank. you know what I mean but not a drop too much like I've been refueling and then it automatically like is just like no more do you know what we should do you should come over for lunch sometime I'll cook you a lunch I don't think you mean that of course I mean it so I just go back to your house right now you make me lunch that sounds so nice to me what are you gonna make what do you want well you're not Dave Chang what do you have in the fridge what are you gonna make

1:24:05Andy Greenwald:I am low on protein options right now but I have some lovely tinned fishes that could open up for you? I don't want to eat that for lunch, honestly.

1:24:11Chris Ryan:Like, I don't want to eat tinned fish for lunch.

1:24:14Andy Greenwald:You don't have to. I'm just saying that's where we're dealing with it. Is that what you would make,

1:24:16Chris Ryan:like a toast kind of thing?

1:24:18Andy Greenwald:I could do a toast. Sometimes I make, you're going to, you don't want to hear this. Sometimes I make like little like brothy soup type things. Interesting. Like chickpeas or chicken and a bunch of greens, lemon juice, olive oil. And you just whip that up.

1:24:31Chris Ryan:Yeah. Yeah. This is something you do that I don't do. And what I do is... Go to parties. No. I don't even go to parties that much anymore, but apparently, like, I remember Isidore, so.

1:24:44Andy Greenwald:I think that there's, as we've talked about, there are trade-offs in both directions for child-full and child-free lives. And I have said goodbye to the part of me that remembered things about orcs. In return, what did I get?

1:25:02Chris Ryan:You're not beating the allegations, dude. You fucking are such a nerd about Marvel. You know so much about comic books. I know. That's why I'm. You can't. That's why this feels so good. You're not Amanda. You can't be like, oh, I don't even do that anymore. I'm too busy with my hobbies.

1:25:18Andy Greenwald:This feels so good. Also, Amanda isn't beating the allegations because not only is she just like, oh, does Captain America have a sword or a shield? She's also like, sentimental value did nothing for me. So frankly, I don't mean to cause cross pod beef. Sure. And I don't know at this point. She's a devoted listener. and a good friend. I don't know if she does

1:25:37Chris Ryan:Watch After Dark.

1:25:38Andy Greenwald:I don't know if she makes it 70 plus minutes in.

1:25:40Chris Ryan:Because being friends with us

1:25:41Andy Greenwald:is like always hearing

1:25:42Chris Ryan:Watch After Dark.

1:25:43Andy Greenwald:Kind of.

1:25:44Chris Ryan:Yeah. Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to Sarah. We'll be back on Monday talking about the Oscars and we'll go into a little bit more depth about the other two episodes of Paradise. We'll do a more granular breakdown, I think. All right. That sounds good. And then next Thursday, I think you can expect some Pitt. I think you can expect some Madison. We'll check that out. Great. maybe a special guest. We'll see.

1:26:09Andy Greenwald:I always get excited when you talk about what's to come, even though I have more knowledge than maybe the average listener. You really tease it well.

1:26:15Chris Ryan:Thanks to everybody for writing in about the industry. And thanks to GTH. Have a cold one.

1:26:22Andy Greenwald:Take a walk. Touch some grass. We'll get through it. See you guys next week.

1:26:34Chris Ryan:Stitch Fix. Shopping is hard. Let's talk about it.

1:26:37Andy Greenwald:I don't have time to shop, so I buy all my clothes where I buy my seafood. I just want someone to tell me what shirt goes with what pants. I just want jeans to fit.

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1:26:56Andy Greenwald:Man, that was easy.

1:26:57Chris Ryan:That looked good.

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