Where Are All the Good Summer TV Shows? Plus, the ‘Lioness’ S3 Teaser and ‘Star City’ Episode 4.

21:40He's been in some really good movies. And I dare say I think that this entire thing kind of hinges on whether or not he's any good.

21:48Andy Greenwald:He seems good. I've heard he's a nice guy. You don't like his contributions to the tortured poets? I liked him in The Brutalist. classic Pennsylvanian right there. I liked his shadow over songs like The Black Dog more than I liked his performance in The Brutalist. You were not a Brutalist guy. No, I hated The Brutalist. Anyway, that's a show that I'm looking forward to. And one of the segments I wanted to do with you today is a question I had. Are we back in like 1994 where we just are taking the late summer off from television? Oh, I thought you were saying, are we back in the way like people say it online?

22:30So I was reading Joe Dalian had a really good piece in Vulture about Widow's Bay and how it has become a kind of late breaking Emmy, if not favorite, at least danger to really upset the apple cart with the Emmys, with the noms and stuff. And I completely agree. I think I don't think that there has been a show, maybe other than the pit and nights that I have heard more people in my life talking about in glowing terms and that they don't vote for Emmys.

22:56Andy Greenwald:What was the second one you said? The Pit and Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Where people are like catching up with it week to week. It's growing and growing over the course of its run. I mean, Joe had some data about that. I think streaming data is always a little bit suspect. Yeah. But it seems undeniably true in both like the numbers he had and in lived experience that this is a unicorn in the sense that it has grown exponentially week over week and apparently is still growing. Yes. Like the audience is finding it even now on the precipice of the finale. So— I thought that was interesting, and in that piece he mentions the way that spring in TV has turned into late November, December in movies.

23:39And that the studios are essentially banking their stuff that they think is Emmy-worthy to put out at the same time. And now we've complained about this before, where there's this huge glut of stuff over the last six weeks leading up until the Emmy deadline. and then there is kind of this like almost collapse that happens now we do have some good stuff coming out in the coming weeks like i mentioned earlier in the show there's house of the dragon the agency the bear the larry david show uh i mean not necessarily for our pod but the legally blonde show l is coming on on amazon prime lucky the annie tiller joy show on apple lanterns is later this summer and the will ferrell golf comedy the hawk i think is still coming out this summer although it's always hard to tell with netflix sometimes but i don't think other than until potter in december there's like a big show in the fall as far as i as far as i can

24:40Andy Greenwald:tell um well we could be surprised we could always be surprised and that's actually among my favorite moments for this pod and for watching TV is when either you can catch up on stuff or something comes out of nowhere. Maybe it's a show from another country or maybe it's something that you didn't know Netflix or Apple had and now it's in your face. HBO often will sometimes have a random thing that they're showing on what would be a Monday night show and it becomes a big deal. I don't really care about the Emmys as I've said before, but do you think that the Emmys or maybe like a little towering, a little too largely over the schedule.

25:19Andy Greenwald:Yeah, I think it's a very interesting point to make. And I think that like, we are dealing with a deficit of attention economy and it has never been harder to break through the noise for anything. Because as we discussed and as we live, everything, TVs, movies, music, politics, news, is competing with everything that has ever happened. Disclosure, Jay, probably would have made more money if it wasn't for the Knicks and the World Cup. Right. And although Sean managed to do all three probably. He sure did. So he's doing his part. It's representative in an interesting way of what the major streamers and networks are thinking in terms of what their best bet is for some of their material.

26:00Andy Greenwald:And maybe we're due for maybe maybe we're due for a correction. Because I think that there has been such smart scheduling jujitsu performed over the last few years. It's now been quite some time, but like Netflix, like actually realizing that the holidays aren't the time to avoid releasing things. It's actually the best time to flood the zone, especially with family friendly or appointment type viewing like stranger things. That's something that now HBO has learned its lesson from. And that's why the Harry Potter show is coming out around Christmas. it may be time now that schedules are finally this may be the first year first 18 months that things have finally kind of got back to normal and on track since the double whammy of COVID and the strikes but to your point like late summer now seems like an opportunity I think that they have over corrected for Emmy attention I don't think that the Emmys necessarily mean so much in terms of like we have now been validated but the Emmys and the Emmy promotional window and then the long tail of Emmy nominations leading to the awards is, it's not, certainly not free marketing and advertising, but it is another way to stay at the forefront of the conversation and to keep you in the conversation in a way that is necessary for shows that take anywhere from one year to three years to come back again.

27:18Andy Greenwald:So it's just extending the tail of that. That said, there has to be a limit to this because one thing that I don't even think we're going to talk about it fully today because I don't think you've engaged with it yet, but I did start to check out um uh amadeus on stars and it's awesome and clever and interesting and worthwhile and debuted in the uk in the fall and then stars kind of stars picked it up and i don't want to say dumped it but kind of dumped it a month ago i think it's for to whatever extent that like i just don't think a lot i don't know that a lot of people have stars no and i don't know if the people who have stars i mean stars is bread and butter is the we were semi-joking about it not that these shows are bad but there are so many power spinoffs that it's like it's an incredibly thriving ecosystem that i don't know anything about what i mean what i mean by bringing up amadeus is that i would imagine the marketing department of stars had a choice they were like what is the best bet to get any return on our investment or to have people appreciate the less cynically appreciate the show that we've fallen in love with and i think the two paths were let's try to get Will Sharp and Paul Bettany Emmy nominations.

28:28Andy Greenwald:Or the alternative, what potentially would have been, there's a dead zone in August where we could say, we've got something fun and surprising and prestigy and cool. And for whatever reason, they decided to put it in the most crowded portion of the year. Yeah, I don't know what the answer is. I tried throwing out, let's have the Emmys twice a year. Do you have like a Penske shares? No, but the town pushed back on that. not Bellany, but the town itself. Lukashoff. I got, the responses I got were like, that wouldn't work. Did you get responses? Okay, interesting. Well, what if you did the Emmys, you know, I mean, the Emmys are held in the spring, I think because of the traditional network TV cycle of fall to, you know, fall to spring TV programming.

29:10Andy Greenwald:Well, the cutoff window occurs then because that would be in time to capture the finales of the broadcast TV season. But like, I don't know. I mean, that's not really how people watch television anymore. So why not have it in October? No, and, you know, there is, I was going to say there's science to it. It's not science to it. It's just also common sense. Like on that podcast, The Town, I was listening to, I think Craig said that he liked Disclosure Day more than Matt and he thought Emily Blunt might get an Oscar nomination. And Matt was dismissive of it, not because he didn't think she was good, but because I think he was right in saying this movie would have to go on a generational box office run to carry her candidacy into the Emmy, sorry, into the Oscar nominating period.

29:50Andy Greenwald:I think that's still true. I guess that's true. I mean, if Sinners did a generational box office run, I guess that would be the comp. Yeah, it's possible. And similarly, like shows, there will be Emmy nominees that aired in the fall of 2025. Task is an example. Task will definitely get some kind of nomination. But I think the more successful strategy is like front of mind. We just ended. And then the best case scenario is Widow's Bay. I don't think Apple was like, let's drop this in the eligibility window because we think we have a shot. It was more like, let's just see. Seems like a fun spring show.

30:25Andy Greenwald:You thought this was your run club era. Turns out it was more of a thinking about run club era. The good news? Someone's marathon training is about to start. Sell your workout gear on Depop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. They get their race day fit and you get a payout for trying. Someone on Depop wants what you've got. Start selling now. Depop. Where taste recognizes taste. I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, Autobotulinum Toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine.

31:07Andy Greenwald:It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection.

31:36Andy Greenwald:Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. Let's talk a little bit about Widow's Bay because I know that you were so fired up for this and just for the house cleaning, that's what we call it, house cleaning. We will have a special Widow's Bay episode on Thursday. For the finale. For the finale. You know, you said that like you kind of were inspired by Widow's Bay to check out weapons finally.

32:16Andy Greenwald:I love Widow's Bay so much that I don't have any hesitation about engaging with it. And partly I think that's because it's rewarded my confidence and faith in it and has only given me one example of a clown chasing a man through a crawlspace. There hasn't been a ton of that. But for whatever reason, I think it's one version of the story is like, I'm braver now. Or maybe I was wrong about myself. The other version of the story is Widows Bay has made me so excited about the possibility of different notes being played on my emotional story. Sure. Telling piano that I'm willing to give it a shot. Now, we don't need to relitigate weapons because that conversation missed me and that's my fault.

32:58Andy Greenwald:But I always hoped to watch it to one day be a big enough boy to watch it. I believed on some level that I could handle it. I think that I, to my credit, I definitely downloaded it for multiple transatlantic flights, but didn't feel like the time or place. Yeah, and also I think it's probably better seen on a bigger screen. Yes, I would agree with that as well. And again, I don't want to ding you. You've been nothing but a supportive and good friend to me. But I will say, part of my attempt to stay unspoiled is I didn't read anything about it. so I never saw Zach Craig's quote that he was inspired primarily by Paul Thomas Anderson's film Magnolia and Jennifer Egan's novel A Visit from the Goon Squad yes if you my friend had led with that I would have been at the theater opening weekend so my issue with that is A that's not my job B fair if I had told you that yes and you had gone opening night yeah what would I have said pay me a picture Amy Madigan was torn to pieces by children I think the blowback on me.

33:59You would have been mad at me, not Zach

34:01Andy Greenwald:Craig. Okay, now, let me just prepare you for the next time this comes up, because this will not be the last movie in which Oscar winners are torn apart by children. The issue for me is if aging Oscar winners had torn children apart. My allegiance and my emotional... See, I thought you would be like, who's gonna... What happens to these children? What kind of therapy do they need? They're bewitched. Whatever. They were bewitched. Whatever. My child, when the iPad is in front of her, is capable of anything. And I can say anything to her. Yeah. And it will be as if it's water off the proverbial duck's back.

34:36Andy Greenwald:Cut the little piece of hair. I could. I could do the power that parents now have in front of these children is awesome. Yes. You could be like, this is the Swedish national team. Yes. We're going to be watching them for two hours and 15 minutes. I did try that with the U.S. national team. And the disinterest was like a physical presence in the room with me. Really? The air was thick with not caring. Just the cutaways to like Marco Rubio didn't do it for them? They still believe in JD. So anyway. I put together a little bit of a list here of recent horror movies to talk to you about. Can I say one last thing though?

35:10Andy Greenwald:Of course. That guy can really make a movie. Yeah. It was awesome. It did validate a thought that Widows Bay had given me, which is that I can go on two thoughts. One, I can go on any journey with characters if I believe them on an emotional or human level. Which character did you identify with in Weapons? Gladys. I think the elderly are often discarded by our capitalistic society, you know? And I felt like her attempt to find a home. We've both been motivated by elder care recently. Berlin gives real, like, son-dad vibes. He sure does. But I wondered whether or not you really were like, I too would never give up looking for my disappeared child.

35:51No, none of that.

35:51Andy Greenwald:No, no, no. I didn't need to find me in this. because I think we know generally that like book talk and like YA fandom is like super toxic. But then there are those people who are like, I don't read the descriptions. I only read dialogue because why would I want, why would I trust someone else's point of view? I did not see this. This is a whole movement of people. I think I was saving it for our book talk, not T-O-K, but actual talk about books. Anyway, I do not need to have a hero on screen to watch art. that said I mean like the fact that the movie was grounded in a world in which Julia Garner has this like you know destructive relationship with Alden Ehrenreich's cop yeah and that they have a history with each other you want a little piece of my Alden Ehrenreich IPO don't you I am fucking almost missed it one saw him in Becky Shaw I know and Andy's text response was so you really like him huh what do you mean no that was your response that you saw the movie no that you saw the play that when I when I was like my boy Alden cooking in Becky Shaw and you were like, oh, you really like that guy, huh?

36:53Andy Greenwald:Boy, I sound like a real asshole over text. I think you were probably just like, I can't believe Chris is at like a Broadway play and I'm... Must be nice. That's probably what I said. Basically. It's like cooking a dinner that I know was going to be rejected in six minutes and you were like, Broadway! No, no, no. I just like, I loved the attention to, in the spirit of Magnolia, the attention to characters who felt fully realized and real before the supernatural shit hit and the way that it overlapped the stories and took one step back for different perspective and like these little details like Benedict Wong, Principal Benedict Wong and his husband having hot dog day.

37:30Andy Greenwald:Like these little fucking like fun, funny details were wonderful and Aaron Reich is awesome in that part. When I bought into that world, anything could happen in it and it was enjoyable and gripping and not shocking. I will say that like the other thing that I realized in my long absence from real horror, real horror, other than newyorktimes.com is, the opinion pages, by the way, not the news, is that like, I kind of forgot that there is a whole - Did you write an angry letter about the Kathy Rumler profile that they ran? I drafted one. Dear sirs. My drafts folder is flames. Dear sirs and madams.

38:09Andy Greenwald:No, the thing that's driving me craziest about the Times right now is that they change their headlines to be less stupid as the day goes on. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's always been like a gimmick on Twitter where people are like, fixed it for you. You know? Criminal enters White House for a second time. Fixed it for you. The edit. No, but it's like the Michelle Goldberg column was just like, I followed the Democrat that everyone who's smart wants to be president. And then like by the end of the day, it was like a day with John Ossoff. Yeah. Yes. Anyway. They know the angriest people get up first, you know?

38:44Good morning.

38:45Andy Greenwald:fire off a couple texts to you about what you're wasting your time with in theater. This is going to sound very silly saying this to you because you live, you are Bane born in this particular darkness, but I definitely have self-selected myself out of a lot of entertainment that plays to, not just horror-wise, but like the way you feel at the end when Gladys gets ripped apart by children is a cortisol, adrenaline, emotion spike that also comes at the end of Die Hard, a movie I hadn't seen in a while and watched recently, like an action movie thing. and that is that's what i was saying like the part of the keyboard that i don't often tickle that was wild yeah like i i think that i am increasingly becoming the person who like rides roller coasters to feed feel something but worry that like yeah pretty soon i'm not gonna eat the roller coaster you know it's just gonna be like what's the tallest building and what are you gonna do just just jump in and feel you know but uh with horror movies that's a I meant that more as a metaphor.

39:40You want to know where you should go next. Or if I can, yeah. Well, the biggest question is, are you so fired up? Are you so lost on this weapons gas that you'll go see Resident Evil with me?

39:56Andy Greenwald:I think two things. One. Fountains of blood in this movie. I think that's going to be. Zombies. I mean, I did just. Undead. I'm sorry. That's what we're calling them now? Is that the unhoused of zombies? Incredible. Okay, I will cop to one last thing. I think controlling the environment helped my engagement with weapons. I did have the lights on. I did have a cat nearby for throttling and grabbing purposes. She was not scared, by the way. She seemed worse. I could, I don't know, it was powerful for me to be like, if I'm wrong about this, I could go in the other room. Yeah. You can always hit pause.

40:38Andy Greenwald:Yeah. I can't do that in the theater. That's really getting on the ride. So I don't know. Yeah. Okay. So Resident Evil is the next Kragger movie. Yeah. I saw the trailer. It's sick. It's sick. That's your boy Austin Abrams too. Back for more. Another IPO holding. I've been waiting. You have been nurturing that one. I am America's first trillionaire. You fucking bought that as a penny stock from Spike Jonze. I saw him in Paper Towns. Incredible. A movie with Cara Delevingne. And I can't remember who else. And it's like. That was a John Green adaptation. and I was like that kid's going places whereas I thought it was Gracie's less talented younger brother until about six weeks ago no I know but that probably is why you didn't respect his craft that's correct because you were like another Nepo exactly that much like Jane Campion's daughter stomping all over Star City I am detecting yeah yeah a slight width of a need for a minor amount of ironic distance in your horror films what I'm saying is give me give me the three pitch speeds that I could go into Okay, so number one would be things that have some tongue-in-cheek, some meta commentary, some comic elements.

41:46Andy Greenwald:Scary Movie 5. No. Okay, good. Shaun of the Dead. I love that. Okay, just making sure. I mean, yeah, come on. Cabin in the Woods. I've never seen it. I think you would enjoy it. Okay. And Scream 3, which is the one set in Hollywood where they're making a scream. They're making stab about Scream, and the script is kind of being written as it goes and killing people. But don't you think that runs afoul of my first plank in my absolutely rock-solid weapons platform, which was real people with real emotional stakes? You don't think that Sidney Prescott is a real person? You don't think she carries pathos?

42:26Andy Greenwald:Gravitas. Okay. I see what you're saying, though, and I love Shaun of the Dead. So the thing is, is that Weapons has comic moments. Obviously, Widow's Bay is sort of pitched more as a what if horror was happening in a sitcom. Although I think as the second half of the season has gone on, it's gotten away from the office space aspect of it and more into the like, these people are in true danger. but I did want to suggest a movie called The Invitation which is a Karen Kusama movie from 10 years ago maybe at this point maybe longer first of all just very much feels like that I know I'm in a major city but it feels like I'm alone in the world okay dinner party psychological thriller horror movie Logan Marshall Green is in that Sure.

43:18And it is about a dinner party that turns into a kind of a cult initiation kind of thing.

43:24Andy Greenwald:By the way, for non-long-time listeners, Chris mentioned Logan Marshall Green because that is a stock that is still, you're holding, but you're not. He's on Marshalls. He's on the most popular television show in America. But that's because that's Nepo. He's Marshall Green. He didn't earn that. No, but speaking of, but you mentioned him to me because his mother was my college acting teacher. Yes, and she's done a great job. The Great Larry. But in terms of, there's a couple that like came out where I wonder whether or not they would just be too intense. Like there is not the release valves that I think Weapons has where, hey, yeah, like we're going to hit stop.

44:01It's a new vignette. You're going to get to start with a new vibe with Aaron Reich or with Abrams or with Benedict Wong or whatever.

44:06Andy Greenwald:And the other thing that is, I think, for me, I guess sort of I didn't even pay attention to it. You get a taste of what's coming and then you rewind. So like the weapons tells you what happens to Benedict Wong and then you just find out why it happened. And it's absolutely horrific, but you are a little bit. That's what I'm saying. You have you need a stiff arm up. You need a Heisman. So O.J. Bimson up in my face. Among recent films. I mean, for instance, the best horror thriller that I've seen this decade is is Red Rooms. I don't think you can handle Red Rooms. Who made that one? It's a French Canadian film about a woman who becomes obsessed with a serial killer of young girls.

44:44Andy Greenwald:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And she goes to his trial every day, and there are reasons for that. I hope so. I mean, I'm a fan of cinema, and I hope that there are reasons. I do think you might be interested in Empty Man. It has David Fincher vibes. It's kind of more like in the Manhunter genre of James Badgedale plays a cop. It's another guy you love. And it's like kind of a crossover between like the occult and serial killer, but if you like Mindhunter, if you like Manhunter, if you like Seven, I think that you'd be into that. But again, not a lot of laughs. It follows David Robert Mitchell's movie about a cursed virginity, a virginity cursed basically who follows around Micah Monroe in an abandoned kind of ex-berbia.

45:36Cinematically incredibly compelling to watch. Some really good filmmaking. a couple of real fucking like that scary moments. They're going to make a sequel to that. So get on board now before it happens.

45:47Andy Greenwald:All right. This is good. Also, half of these you could be making up. I could be. And then Strange Darling was one from a couple of years ago, maybe even just last year, JT Molnar's movie. And he went on to write the last, the long walk, the Stephen King adaptation. It's a kind of Tarantino-esque take on two people chasing each other across the countryside and it's like, what is going on here? Who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy? But two incredible performances. Yeah. And I think this is not, I think this is potentially servicey as well because like I said, I don't think I'm the only one who is, because people have asked me in my life, like, can I handle Widow's Bay?

46:27Andy Greenwald:I don't like horror. Right. And the answer is absolutely yes. And I think it's good to try new things. And I'm not, you know, I play a part here a little bit. Sure. I have seen a scary movie once. No, but I wouldn't make you watch Green Room, which is Jeremy Saulnier's movie about a punk rock band being chased by white supremacists. I care about punk rock bands too much. Yes. I cannot see them suffer. I just want to see them held up and invited on this podcast. Yeah, when you're not here. When I'm not here. But I'm worried about them. I don't want to corrupt them. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

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47:27Andy Greenwald:Send Help is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. We're somewhere in the Gulf of Thailand. Getting us out of here should be your focus. I'm your boss. You work for me. We're not in the office anymore. It's bold, relentless, and endlessly rewatchable. Discover why critics give it 93 % on Rotten Tomatoes. You're so fired. Oh, am I? No help is coming. Send help. Rated R. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Can I just ask, I know we're up against it, but Kayak, where are you on this in terms of horror movies? Have you seen any of these that he's mentioned? Yes, I've actually seen, this is like the most movies I've seen out of a Chris Ryan list.

48:11Andy Greenwald:Oh, because, forget this, you guys watch a lot of zombie stuff. Yes. Green Room is really good. He's ready. The Invitation is very good. It Follows is probably one of my favorite movies I've seen in the last couple decades. Wow. I mean, it's all right there waiting for you. I mean, I am such a, what's the word, baby, that I actually. Give yourself some credit. No, but about this. Not about watching. I can watch hard things and I can surprise myself with scary things and I can be I was delighted with some of the jump scares and weapons. I will say, though, I am so relatively new to this and perhaps that bubble wrapped myself so intensely that when the movie was over and I was super psyched, I was faced immediately with two problems.

48:51Andy Greenwald:One, you were fucking in a different time zone. So I couldn't tell you and brag about how I'd done something. And two, I was like, am I going to have nightmares? I actually thought I'm like, well, now must I do the things? I don't have to worry about that because all I have is stress nightmares about doing podcasts. A billion percent. They're never interesting. They're always like, I've woken up late and I forgot what I'm talking about. I completely. Bill's mad. Bill's in the basement. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway. Bill is Aunt Gladys. I didn't. I wish I had seen it early enough to have not even been spoiled by Aunt Gladys.

49:27Oh, and the other one I would say that you should watch, honestly, even though you're going to find it too intense in places is the 28 years later and 28 years later bone temple okay i did this came up because those are two of my favorite movies of the last two years i did start

49:39Andy Greenwald:28 years later and i was and i was like i can't wait to tell chris i did this so he'll be proud of me and i tapped out okay i tapped out early because of this 360 shots of guys eating deers or whatever or no deer can be delicious if prepared properly yeah sometimes you have to be warned about buckshot i think you you really held gail simmons's feet to the fire about venison preparation in a zombie apocalypse um i have to rush you through this because i want to do star city before we get out of here i'm sorry for uh the speed round lovely episode of television uh dark forest it was directed by stefan schwartz which i want to make sure i get right and uh liba veinberg uh wrote it there was some elements of this one that reminded me of uh for all mankind and good ways where you start to see the beginnings of, you know, freeway extensions to the future.

50:30The beginning of, like, say, a nine-month mission that the chief designer is going to— spoilers for this fourth episode, obviously. And we're keeping Star City at the end so that, obviously, like, it's a growing show. It's a show that's new, and many people haven't caught on to it yet. I'd like to see it further up Apple's top shows ratings. but it's something that I think is just a wonderful wonderful show and it is among my favorite things that's been released this year so far so yeah you see the for all mankind building blocks of like these people are going to go out into the far reaches of the galaxy and we'll be gone for nine months and it's like this is the kind of series that takes those kinds of jumps and takes those kinds of risks but the real drama and the real action remains grounded in Moscow and in Star City and I thought that this one was a lovely episode of television that was also an example of this one.

51:22They do things you see on other series and they do them so fucking well that you're just like, you know what, brother? I know the notes. Play the song anyway. So this episode opens with a how Valya was corrupted by the U.S. intelligence services to become a mole. And you've seen these kinds of flashbacks done, tons of espionage shows tons of other shows do the like three years earlier now we explain why this person is the way they are and it's done so artfully like there are these shots of um tanya and value when they're at a party together and there's like a they're both in windows separate from each other in an apartment and then you can tell that they see each other and she comes over to him and is in his window and they're being watched by a uh a u.s intelligence operative operative um that and then at the end of the episode anastasia who's been hitting the bottle and signing signing autographs and kissing babies finally the closest she's come to getting back out into space is setting off fireworks with a bunch of dorks from a from a physics department at a university on a out by a dacha out on a lake somewhere in rural russia and her joy and also like just some of the shots of them setting off these fireworks.

52:39I was like, this doesn't need to be this good, but because it's this good, it makes this show great. But those were my big takeaways.

52:48Andy Greenwald:I couldn't agree with you more. I feel like you even, another example, even from just that opening that's explaining the story of how a hero has ostensibly been turned to be a villain within the narrative of the show, the moment when he is approached by the Western operative to turn him, intern him because of the exposure of his wife, to protect her. It's a dissident group. Yeah. They're waiting for a bus and then the bus engine starts and we don't hear the conversation. Real, real G's know you can move in silence like lasagna. Yeah. And you can do that like sometimes in art with negative space and you can do it and it's hard to do it, particularly hard to do it as a writer in a shrinking industry like television where you can't trust, you can get your point across to the various levels of executives and development people and producers.

53:34Andy Greenwald:But ultimately, it's a visual medium. And if you trust the story you're telling and your collaborators in it, they can tell you the story with the pictures and you can win by saying less. And that was an incredible moment that captures that at its best. You mentioned For All Mankind. I would say that the For All Mankindness of this episode for me at first was the groaning runtime. And I say this to people, if anyone is still listening who wants to be sold four episodes in on the show, I hear you. I didn't feel particularly fired up to watch the fourth episode of Star City because it is so visually committed to the color palette and the world and the moment and the very, very specific storytelling that I was like, is this really, after watching Cote d 'Ivoire, is this really going to be the rest of my Sunday night?

54:24Andy Greenwald:And when it's an hour and 10 minutes. And the thing about it is - I could be watching this Tunisian manager's last match. But genuinely, it rewarded patience and it rewards, it's like the slow food manifesto. I was like, I had a note that was like, some of these scenes feel more like European cinema than they do American television. They are very, very long. And the way that it earns it is so old fashioned and kind of beautiful. They earn it by saying, here are the six characters and we are going to draw them into such inexorably tight knots. early that every scene is imbued with that extra connection that, uh, and, and I think that this, the two standout moments for me, uh, of the episode that are both old school and hadn't seen that before.

55:17Andy Greenwald:Old school is, uh, Rees-Ifan's performance as chief designer is so subtle and so strong. And even if it was just a passing conversation or if it was always the intention, the character is based on a kindness and paternalistic decency that anchors the show like in the midst of people who have like this was an episode that gave ludmilla like a little bit more she's she's endangered too even though she's mostly just been shooting people when they're her reaction to that was just to be to choose somebody at random to be brutal too exactly like she's like if i feel pressure like some other poor person is gonna get it yeah so but but but you also could see the scaffolding of like let's make her a little bit more understandable or empathetic chief designer in his scene with um i want to get her name right with uh with lakshmi who's a new character this week played by priya kansara yeah dr tata or whoever yeah the the way that he sort of brings her on is like classic like hollywood almost yes like you i've you've mistaken me for someone else and but i'm i love your spunk and your spirit and by the way i'm fucking sending you to Venus, even though you're not a cosmonaut, was awesome and exciting and very old-fashioned, like, I love these people already kind of thing.

56:28Andy Greenwald:Counterpoint that with Irina's discovery much sooner than I think it would have necessarily come in a show. I didn't think they were going to be able to pin this on Valia within one episode of the reveal. That Irina is charged with tracking down this tiny coil, this heat-conducting coil that was pirated into the lunar lander, that it was connected to the French perfume that she had already clocked in their apartment the week before. Yes. It's such elegant spy craft storytelling. I was like, God damn. Like, you and I watch a lot of spy shit. Yeah. And it honestly doesn't take a lot to make us like it.

57:07Andy Greenwald:And I thought that was just wildly clever. Yeah, and Agnes O 'Casey is doing a really great job where there is like this sort of dead ember, like one little glowing ember of desire inside of her. And I don't know which way it's going. Like, is she in love with Tanya? Is she in love with Valia? Is she just in love with the fact that they have a private life that is full of sensual like awakening and music and travel? Yeah. Or exactly. I didn't even say that. The other thing that made that scene brilliant wasn't the mechanics of like, oh, this is a spring and this is how they got it to her. It's that the previous episode established that she is incredibly jealous of the perfume.

57:49Andy Greenwald:So in this scene, you're like, did she manufacture a reason to go back there solely to spray some perfume? Yeah. And that's what makes it excellent. Yeah. It's a great, it's on a great run. So I agree with you. It can feel long, those episodes. I worry about falling behind. That's the other thing. I was like, should I? We weren't sure if we were going to cover it today. And then I'm with you if you're like, I don't know if it's too late because piling up four of these could feel heavy. It can be four and a half hours, yeah. That's really good. Yeah, try to keep up. We'll be back on Thursday, special Widows Bay episode.

58:27And I hope everybody's having a great World Cup and a great first couple weeks of summer.

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59:10Check out dan.