‘Widow’s Bay’ Sweeps the Emmys! Plus, ‘Lanterns’ Episode 5.

25:58Get back after it. Get back after it. We believe in this project. I also will say, and this is not an attempt to like be insidery about it, but one of the things that I love about Widows Bay is how completely genuinely unexpected any level of success was for those involved in it, let alone this absolute coming out party of award show dominance. Like that when you make a show, when our good friend, friend of the pod, Casey Bloy's Greenlight's Night of the Seven Kingdoms, which was nominated last night. Did I make? What's that? I thought you were like, well, you make a show, like, to me, and I was like, cool, what's the show about?

26:30The 1999 Masters. Unexplored little, like, little gems, little Easter eggs. Yeah. When Casey Greenlight's Night of the Seven Kingdoms, the calculus and the math and the economics of it really are built around a number of things that are very difficult to control for. One of them is Emmy nominations. Sure. It is a huge success because it was both good and it got the attention and the ratings that you needed to. That is not the case when Apple greenlights Widow's Bay. I'm sure there were executives there who believed in the show and championed it. But there's a writer on the show, writer-producer named Mackenzie Doerr, who was up on stage last night.

27:05And I met her in London when she was working on a show last year. And we had a great conversation with a mutual friend, talked about a bunch of projects she's worked on and is working on. A funny little comedy she made last summer with Apple didn't even come up. like not that she wasn't proud of it but it wasn't leading conversations which like if you know I think that if you or I had worked on Widow's Bay or the 1999 Masters drama we would have been telling everyone it's called a tradition unlike any other that's good that's good we would be telling everyone about it and spreading the word and whether because we thought it was going to be well received or because we were so worried that it wouldn't be and it is just an exciting example of Apple has more money than anyone else to do this and take chances.

27:48But if you have that much money, please take chances. You know what? I was referring to it as like this, the 1999 Masters as if that was like a really crystal clear memory for me. That's the one that Jose Maria Olatobo won and Tiger came in 18th. So I think I was thinking of a different Masters. No, that's the one I was most interested in. The Olatobo. Well, you know. Just so that lots of people could say Olatobo. I'm passionate about the, you know, this subtle beneath the surface conflicts between Castilian speakers and Catalan speakers. Yeah, I know. They're not that underneath the surface. Well, in the world of golf, they often are.

28:23You know, I think the fairway is known as like the place where peace is possible. It sounds better in Catalan. The fairway is where peace is possible. That's the log line. That's good. Oh, okay. So, a tradition like any other. The tradition, you think it's about golf, but what it really is. No, it's about divisions. Oh, and then. But the fairway, and then, Owen Wilson's Price whatever the hell his name is from Stick shows up as a young man de-aged and he's just like Irishman Owen Wilson. And he's like Amigos! Yes. You know? Yeah. And then what about can we get Will Ferrell's golf show in there as well?

28:59Clock? Yeah. You're fast with that. Yeah. I was quick. Again super engaged. I suppose then a good segue here out of Widows Bay would be the only person who won bigger than Widows Bay last night was the star of Widows Bay. Matthew Rhys, who I think for the first time in history, an actor won a lead. Two lead trophies. Two lead trophies in one evening. Rhys won for actor in a comedy and actor in a limited anthology or made for a TV movie for Beast and Me. The Beast and Me. I was served almost immediately when looking at Instagram last night. A video from the Joe Rogan experience. Couldn't be you.

29:37This must have been the first time. Of Bradley Cooper telling a story about when he met Matthew Rhys on the set of Burnt because Matthew Rhys was his nemesis, like his chef nemesis. I watched that movie on a plane. I watched the video without turning the sound on, so I was only going by the subtitles. But it sounded like Bradley Cooper almost died and that Matthew Rhys saved him. That sounds like the kind of story that Bradley Cooper has for every movie he's worked on. Yes, I bet he's also like Big Dom once. I almost died in Big Dom. from the Eagles' safety. 100%. He just keeps almost dying. Well, I just want to say, because I'm assuming our inbox will be full, that Olaf Favol, of course, is Basque.

30:22Oh, my bad. It's the third heat, as Jack Donaghy once said. Of course. In the beautiful nation of Spain. Did you Google that while I was telling you that story? No. No. I just knew that. Okay. I'm just a little sleepy. I'm excited because, you know, Andonia Iriola, who's the coach of Liverpool is Basque. Yeah, I know that too. As is Mikel Arteta, the coach of Arsenal. I think there are a lot of good things that are Basque, like pinchos. You could have them in small tapas bars. Rhys, obviously, like we just talked about, the best actor on television right now. It's not really close. He also has the best taste.

30:59And 100 % approval rating from the world. Cool family. Gene Smart. Can I just... Rhys was awesome. He's just so good. Those roles are so different. He was so happy and excited. It made for great TV. And also, shout out to his wife, Keri Russell, who did not win, which was a surprise and we'll get there. But just, the two of them, again, this is my thing. Like, neither of them, them together, do not equal one Jack Nicholson. I'm not saying this is the 1993 Oscars. But, they seem to be so beloved by everyone who works with them or sits near them at these things. And she was cheering so loudly and genuinely for everyone that that helped.

31:38That helped. Yes. also two people who seem really happy to be on television comfortable yeah Jean Smart did win it was Hacks' Hacks' one major win of the evening from last night yeah she won for actor in a comedy Noah Wiley I believe that means that she won every season of the show did she? I believe so cool she won five Emmys yes and she has many more from like guest starring on Frasier eight times did she ever win for like Designing Women? I don't think I mean again And I don't Google during the show, so I wouldn't know. Does she enjoy a San Sebastian, like a sort of frothy white wine? Google.sp.

32:18Because I'm only looking at Spanish Google. Bass results. Bass Google, yeah. Bass Separatist results. Look, we don't need to relitigate it. Like, I didn't even watch the last season of Hacks. You didn't? No. At all? Oh, no, I watched the premiere. Okay. But my enjoyment level of that show kind of waned after the first three seasons. Lots of respect to them for making it. Tons of respect for Jean Smart for delivering a career capping performance. And owning every minute of the character's transformation. I have no hate in my heart for Jean Smart. I was glad that she won. I thought it was really sweet the way she thanked Paul and Lucia and Jen Statsky, the showrunners, so directly because this was their baby and they couldn't have done it without each other.

33:05But I was happy Widows Bay won the other awards. Yeah. Noah Wiley won Best Actor in a Drama. That was pretty nailed on. Yep. For the pit. But awesome. Happy for him. Do you think he'll win that award every year the pit's on? I think we are approaching, I would have said a Larroquette situation, but really it's a Gene Smart situation. Yeah. Ray Sehorne winning for Actress in a Drama, I think would probably be the biggest upset. I confidently predicted Zendaya. No, I said I thought Zendaya should win. And I thought Keri Russell would win. Yeah. She beat Keri Kuhn, Chase Infinity, Keri Russell, and Zendaya.

33:46It was a cool category. Yeah. That was, I guess it wasn't a shock if you were to look back and see that clearly the voters had a lot of time for Pluribus because Vince Gilligan also won. Yes. It wasn't one of those things that got nominated, like it was like a be happier here participation trophy. It's a remarkable turnaround and I guess also an enormous credit to I don't think we're generally in the business of lauding publicity campaigns and awards campaigns but clearly Apple did something that AMC wasn't capable of doing because Well in the comedy department Apple is now dominant on an undefeated run.

34:24Because of the studio and they could alternate those shows for the next oh right and they could alternate those shows for the next however many years so they always have something. But yeah, but you know, Ray Seahorn should have been nominated many times, probably should have won for Better Call Saul, didn't. And when you look at this category, I think only Zendaya was existential to the show to the degree that that performance, like you don't make that season if Zendaya is not going to do those things. Similarly, Pluribus just can't exist without Ray Seahorn's performance. Sure. And I thought she was charming and it was deserved.

34:56And also it was, again, And I don't know if I'm emoting or like projecting, but I felt that the room agreed with the podcast community that this woman deserves something. Other nominees in Outstanding Lead Actress seemed elated. That's what I'm saying. I thought that was sweet. And sometimes the narratives that we push aren't necessarily ones that exist among the people doing these things. And it seemed like that was real. I thought it was awesome. And just to use this as an opportunity to say, I actually thought briefly because a lot of the Pitt actors canceled each other out allowing some surprise Is that what you think happened?

35:32100 million percent for supporting actor and things like that What's up with the amount of people who get nominated for supporting actor? But because of that I thought Pluribus had a shot to win Best Drama I thought that but clearly Really? I did So I went into that last moment thinking maybe it was going to snatch it Really? Because clearly they loved it voters loved it and also So the pit's going to be back next year. So there could be a little bit of get you next time. I don't think people think like that. They do not think like that. And it also just affirms my theory that the other nominees cancel each other out because anytime a pit person was alone or the show was alone, it won.

36:09Why are there so many people who get nominated for supporting actor? How many nominees? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven people. whereas in actor it's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 7 to 5 I think when you build something you need more supporting columns to reach the top that's not a stupid answer a little bit stupid I think I do not know the answer to this but that will not stop me as a white male podcaster from opining about it that I believe that there may be a 7 cap on all the categories but you have to hit a certain threshold yes because I think there were 7 nominees in the series categories. So Ray Seahorn was a bit of a surprise.

36:53And I gotta say, I was surprised by Sally Field. Yeah, go off on this. Now, I... Get her, Chris. Believe I said... Play the music. I thought this was category fraud, and I didn't understand why... You did. Remarkably Bright Creatures, which aired on Netflix with hundreds of other movies... Yes. ...was distinguished as a TV movie. Yes. and I did not see Remarkably Bright Creatures so I cannot speak to Sally Field's Tova Sullivan and her relationship to I believe octopuses and their well octopuses and Dr. Octopus because Alfred Molina is in the film as well and your boy your favorite young actor in the world isn't it Louis Pullman yeah you should check him out yeah Sally Field beat Claire Danes Carrie Mulligan Sarah Pidgeon and Sarah Snook I thought maybe Sarah Pidgeon would win yes just because that seemed like a breakout young star performance that the industry would like to lift up and say, we got another one.

37:54But I was wrong. It was more like a, maybe not a lifetime achievement award, but Sally Field seemed genuinely surprised and incredibly prepared to speak off the cuff about not only her career and her experience making Remarkably Baked Creatures, but one of the few explicit anti-merger statements, which was from a night that I thought was pretty devoid of political commentary. I want to be clear. Alfred Molina voices Marcellus, the giant octopus, in the film, which is probably how I would have And does that octopus pick World Cup winners? This one doesn't. This one actually That's just my guy, Paul.

38:36How's he doing? I think Paul has moved on. Is he the CEO of Kelshi now?

38:44making money. Smart. He's ahead of his time. Remarkably bright futures. Yeah. I love your theory. I mean, it is odd. Like, this used to be in a different TV landscape. There were, like, the HBO movies that would clean up these categories and weirdly be up against, like, you know, the miniseries that were on NBC and that's just how it shook out. And invariably, the award would go to a movie star that took an HBO gig over a TV star who is in a 10-part miniseries. This was odd because, as you said, there was one of the nominees who just stood out in the sense of like, this is a veteran legendary actress in what is 100 % a movie.

39:26Which is part of the, it's part of the award, but I just don't understand really what distinguishes it between then why not put Matt Damon from The Rip in actor? First of all, I don't remember him talking to an octopus in that film. No. So he didn't deserve it. Also, he's a male actor, so he wouldn't have been nominated. But would you consider the sort of eight-tentacled criminal justice system that he fights against and the corruption therein? Mm-hmm. It's almost like ripping the tentacles off of the side of the tank, if you will. I think, I wondered, I kind of liked, I see now the shape of your, we're just asking the questions here on this one.

40:05This was the one moment where I was like, like, for example, with my children, when they're like, the MTV Awards of this weekend, Taylor is going to perform. Oh, I hope she wins. And I don't have the heart. Like they know the truth fairy isn't real. The two things are interrelated. Yeah. Aha! You have found the truth. She was going to go up to eulogize her friend Dolly Parton. So she was already going to be there. Oh, you think it's cooked? No, I'm saying you said that. So I was just asking the question. I was just surprised. I thought Claire Danes or Carrie Mulligan or Sarah Pidgeon or Sarah Snooker.

40:40If any of those people had won, I would have been like, oh yeah. Anyway, just to kind of get back on track here. Probably my favorite award of the night went to Tom Pelfrey. Awesome. For Task, Pelfrey gave such a beautiful, vulnerable, sensitive performance. Starmaking, even though he had been recognized and done good work before. Ozark and had been in Manc and stuff like that. But I think, yes, Task is certainly a signature role for him. it was so cool to see the task cast and ingles be there um i thought his like i thought i thought he seemed to be genuinely moved and have like really sincere things to say about being an actor um being a father being sober i thought that was cool um and it just felt that because you know task i don't think it shifted categories but was viewed as a limited became an ongoing and then submitted as an ongoing and then wasn't nominated for Best Drama, I think there was some surprise that he won, considering it was hard to gauge what the voters' affection for that show was.

41:46Yeah, I think it's, generally speaking, the Emmys tends to seemingly vote in blocks. Yep. And they get behind a show, and those shows tend to roll. So having one-offs here and there, I think is really good for the Emmys, but it is not typical for the Emmys. Some other winners, Allison Janney for supporting drama and drama for The Diplomat. This is when they really spread the ball around in drama. Slow Horses and Widow's Bay won for directing. Can I say the Slow Horses one really surprised me? Saul Metzstein won, had a good joke about looking like a Bond villain. But I was really surprised because Slow Horses generally seems like a show that the voters really, really, really, really, really like, don't love enough to give any awards to, and just sort of tick a box.

42:30The fact that he won over two nominees in particular. He beat Sally Richardson-Witfield twice for task, Vince Gilligan for Pluribus, Noah Wiley for The Pit, and Hanell Culpepper for Paradise, and Sally Richardson-Witfield for Gilded Age. Again, I think Sally probably deserved this, but probably split her own vote there. But that was interesting. And the kind of thing where I'm like, I'm not saying it was cooked. I'm saying it was nice when the bounty of drama awards were spread out like this. Yeah. and that's pretty much it Colbert obviously won for late night and traitors for reality I got a couple others please hit me okay what are our thoughts on Emmy award winner for paradise season 2 Shailene Woodley's fit would you like to go on the record did she wear like jeans or something what was she wearing I am not gendering anything when I say Kaya had a reaction to the question and I wondered if she wanted to weigh in at all Kaya you are also welcome to weigh in it is not at all about asking the woman in the room with us horrendous it was tough there was like some gloves involved it was do you have any thoughts I'm trying to find it sorry I wasn't I wasn't looking at the outfit I was looking at the body of work oh she was wearing like leopard yeah and like a a vest but nothing underneath the vest.

44:01All right. She's had a tough week. You know, Aaron Rodgers aired her out a little bit. That is a great point. And, uh, I think she, I think we should, I think we should support people wearing what they want to wear. I agree. Now when you put it in the term, like in the sense of like, if anything Aaron Rodgers like publicly speaks up against, whether it's her or science, I'm generally on the other side of the issue. So I would like to retract my slander. Okay. She can wear what she wants. Um, even a mask. You know what I mean? because I trust I trust doctors Vince Gilligan we have met him in person now we know this to be true a lovely guy his speech was also very hates AI I mean good for him yet another thing he and I have in common last thing Steve Conrad we talk about him a lot yeah he won for DTF St.

44:48Louis congratulations to that show it missed us like in terms of our reaction to it but clearly loved by both audiences and the voters so congratulations what an interesting vibe him? yeah I think he walks the walk man I mean I really respect it it's nice to see like an authentically like offbeat dude that's what I'm saying we talk about him like he's a major celebrity you can kind of see why his the sort of protagonists of his shows are the way they are yes very very reminded me a lot of the lead of Patriot yes yeah or some of like Richard Jenkins yeah in DTF I thought that that was I mean we talk about him like he's a celebrity we don't really engage with his work but we are interested in it and we respect it but I've never actually seen him and there he was like and what a journey I gotta say big what if is him doing Night of the Seven Kingdoms that's the one he was attached to right I believe so yeah and I would love to see that script or like I don't think they shot a pilot but I would love to see what work he did before they were like what I do think that one of the great unexplored like texts in this in this town is like, could we really ever know what these other projects were?

46:00Like the aborted versions of them? Oh, yeah. I do think there should be some sort of statute of limitations where networks and studios can bury projects for 10, even 20 years, but then they have to put them in public domain. I'm thinking of this because I've been reading like quite a few years late, but Jim Miller's HBO, massive HBO oral history, Tinderbox. And there's just these incredible like little stray details about like when Bill Carter from the New York Times wrote the book about late night when it mattered. The Late Shift, I believe it was called. And they, Ivan Reitman came on to make the movie version for HBO.

46:34And the first call he made was to George Armitage, super weirdo filmmaker who did Miami Blues. And he took eight months and wrote a script that begins with Jay Leno and Dave Letterman getting super drunk together at a bar. And they were like, these men don't do this. And Jay Leno famously doesn't drink. Yeah. And apparently the movie turned out the way it did because Bill Carter got that script on a Saturday and was so worried about pretending to like it that he just jotted down 40 pages of a different version of the script that then they bought on Monday. Okay. But give me more. I want to see that, yeah.

47:05Give me the George Armitage version. Give me the Steve Conrad Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. We should do a special episode on Lost Projects. I know we've mentioned them before and we've gone back through the archives, but I would love to revisit that. What's your, do you have a, I don't have anything in my brain right now. I don't know if you have like a white whale of these. If I remember correctly, there was an Altman show. I think it was for... I want to say it was for IFC or it was for some smaller network, but I believe it was about a gun moving through society. There was a show... Well, that's interesting.

47:40There was a show with that premise. I don't know if Altman was connected to it. Altman did do Tanner 88 for HBO. But I don't know. Oh. Well, there was going to be a Pret-a-Porter series. Oh. also it says that he had a show about Spanish golfers

48:00wow tell it on yourself but I guess you and the greats you gotta rip off good sources Emmys goodnight way to go thumbs up let's talk about you didn't hit any parties I did not man no I've been on a run right now of watching mountain climbing disaster movies but like why? well I was trying to find a nicer way to say it like are you are you in pursuit of a larger project that you're going to unveil? what did we watch first? it would be called Don't Stick the Landing? we watched a movie called K2 uh huh with Michael Biehn and Matt Craven I believe that movie has a subtitle called The Widowmaker is that right?

48:44no that's that's the submarine that's K19 that's weird because I feel like climbing K2 would also it's also funny you should say that then we watched Everest which is Jake Gyllenhaal and Josh Berlin on the John Krakauer into thin air trip that was disaster right and tonight well we're seeing Resident Evil tonight but then I think we're gonna we're gonna watch I think it's called Terminal Void or Terminal Distance or something like that it's fun that you have a thing that you're doing we just like mountain climbing movies right now before we get into lantern should we also shout out that Phoebe wrote a fantastic profile of the star of Resident Evil yeah Austin Abrams in British GQ For British GQ.

49:21Yeah. Your household has been just - She also wrote one about Kean Ruffalo from Sterling Point. Really? Yeah. I haven't seen that yet. That's in New York Magazine. She's busy. Fall has never looked or tasted this good. Sweet Greens Fall Harvest Menu is back with seasonal favorites dressed to impress and made to be devoured. Warm roasted sweet potatoes, crisp apples, maple glazed Brussels, and crave worthy flavors in the autumn harvest bowl, maple glazed salmon plate, and roasted bacon Brussels side, the season's most desirable menu has returned to Sweetgreen, featuring fall's best dressed. Make your move.

49:58Order on the Sweetgreen app. This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes.

50:29This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling, just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Let's talk a little bit about lanterns. Well, let's talk a lot about it. I spoke about this episode at length on the Midnight Boys.

51:04I filled in for Charles, and that was really fun. If anything, just because of we engaged in a conversational, like a topic that I don't think we had really discussed which is really more the like mechanics of like Manhunter like who is the man obviously we know who the Manhunter is but might there be more? Was there really just one? Could the Manhunter have learned how to spawn? Well the Manhunter does like sex I mean I'll just say it Yeah The Manhunter gets after it Yes Apparently that's one of the hallmarks of Manhunting Well maybe that's what they're hunting a good time between the sheets they're hunting men yes yeah did you think about that on the other podcast that's amazing but I had not really considered until this episode this episode was written by Justin Brick Ibsen yes that the most handsome mustache in Hollywood the young boy who is the son of Kerry McDonald Kelly McDonald her Kerry character and Jason Ritter's character yep Willie and he's got Billy and he's got a little bit he slings it he's visualizing Jon Stewart helps him sling it yeah and I think also Zoe helps him sling it uh huh of football I mean because Zoe slings it elsewhere there's a very interesting scene in this episode where it seems very important that he is protected yeah you know and that he takes with him the lessons that his grandmother has given him to be fair a similar show about like a young Arch Manning would have the same tenor, right?

52:44Like this boy must be protected at all costs. Well, not anymore. No, the gloves are off. The bubble wrap's off. Yeah. But I'm saying like the football alone in this country makes me think that that's worth protecting. Yeah, I mean, we talked at length about what college program this kid might show up to. Is Van recruiting him for LSU?

53:03It just gave me an insight into like, oh, there are layers to this show that I hadn't considered. I wanted to know what you thought of this episode anyway. Well, okay, I'll talk about it. But I because I have not listened to that podcast yet. I kind of wanted to know where you were coming from with it. Because I and I'm curious about the deeper thoughts. My relationship with the show, I find to be fairly unique in recent memory for big shows in that I still hold that the second episode was the high watermark for me. I thought that episode was just excellent. And I loved it. I've had, you know, a great time and a great time talking about it and admired some of the choices and love some of the aspects of it and the performances or the jokes or the just structural bravery that the show is attempting week to week.

53:48But for me, this episode was never dull, was never anything less than entertaining and often quite surprising. And that's not nothing. it did strike me as uh the kind of loud noise that is distracting from something in that a lot of shit happened and a lot of shit got resolved and i still now please come at me with the most obvious rejoinder there are three episodes to go i don't really i understand a manhunter so i thought i don't understand zoe i didn't really understand why she did what she did at any point during the episode why we were so afraid of her other than the fact that she was willing to satellite laser people in the town.

54:33But the narrative, she's a war criminal, was just so blanketly applied and then everything sort of spun from that. I was having a hard time tracking, like, Macon seems like a very important character. Surely there's another card to turn. No, it's really just two scenes. There's the nude painting and then there's the heart carving scene with Paul Ben Victor, which was a sick scene. Yeah. Really good. Jason Ritter, I assume, got cut out of a lot of these episodes? I think he's going to have, I mean, in the scenes from next week, he seems to be showing up. Okay. So it clearly, because of the way the show plays the time, you kind of can't.

55:13It's a defense against this kind of like episodic interrogation. But I will say that because a lot of it is either being punted to the end and a lot of the swings are so big in the way that I think comic book swings are big, but don't necessarily always translate to TV, that it felt compelling, noisy, kind of flimsy at the bottom. Okay. I think that there is... Okay, so my number one favorite thing about it was the placement of it within the season. Right. To have something that felt so board resetting. Yeah. It kind of ended the first story. And ending this story of Lanterns. I found the way that they've assembled the season to be quite creative.

55:56Sometimes a bit maddening because I think there have been maybe one or two too many red herrings. And I was nervous that we were entering a no one ever really dies, like, wink, wink. Like, we're not going to, like, you know, obviously with Zoe, her fake death two weeks ago, but since the entire framing device of the series so far is who killed Hal Jordan, the idea that that's Hal Jordan's sentry or that Hal Jordan has somehow somehow Hal Jordan has survived is a little bit frustrating to me because I want to believe that the consequences of people's actions have real reverberations you know like like I don't want it to just be like but he was zapped out at the last second by the Guardians and his consciousness is in an ice cube somewhere you're smartly running it I think the central crux of comic book entertainment which is how would you successfully balance or marry cool spectacle with actual rich emotional storytelling?

57:01And I think the series has been a really fascinating and again, incredibly well-made and very engaging, like live stress test on doing it, on trying to accomplish it. You know, like the opening, there's all these little details that I'm definitely not picking up on in my first viewing, probably some of the Midnight Boys Manhunter stuff goes into that category. The last scene of last week's episode when Hal crashes the car, reading about it later and noting upon reflection that, yeah, the streetlight's pretty yellow and the stuff, you know, it's the color of fear and is Hal under the control of Sinestro.

57:38And so it's doing these big comic book things. But sometimes the comic book things mean the cold open of this episode, which is revealing that Kelly MacDonald's character was on the run from Gotham and was a daughter of a snitch and she was a snitch too and she was going to be killed. She's not a snitch. She just... No, no, no. They said she... She would be. The children of snitches also get stitches when they cut their own fingers off. And that Zoe steps in in a diner and is like, of all the people who have driven through this town, you're my guy, Blue. Like, you're the one. Cut off your own finger.

58:09I'm going to kill this guy, et cetera, et cetera. And that is one of those ones that like your mileage may vary. Like, I thought it was an incredibly cool conception. but I also felt very heavily the this has to open this episode because we can't delay any longer her relationship with Zoe and what she knows and I still don't think we know the full extent of it because we know she's alive 10 years in the future and when she has that conversation with Hal where she's like I have to shoot at you because she can see but she can't hear and Hal is like why are you protecting her I thought that Carrie's response to that went beyond just like, she saved my life in a diner once.

58:48There's something else. Is it her son? I think it could be her son. Yeah. Right. Right. And so that there is like a greater reason why she has to protect this specific town. Are you tracking, scene to scene, Hal's intentions and John's intentions and where they are with their separate and now conflicting journeys? Hal and John, yes. I found, I was personally a little bit confused by the more extraterrestrial stuff of the Guardians, the Anton crew, and Zoe, and how that all had shaken out and what they each kind of had come to Earth to do. And the timing of when they were able to do it, in that it seemed pretty clear to anyone who enters Rushville that something's up, but Anton was kind of hanging out in Glendale until John told him that he would take care of him.

59:41And then, like, what do you, do you need somebody specifically to do something for you? Or can you just go in there and do it? And, like, what are your alien capabilities if you're using machine guns? It doesn't really matter. But their alien capabilities, and what is your attitude about the fragility of life? Considering their main thing is suicide bombing themselves at appropriate moments. And, you know, like, that's the line, too, where I'm like, the Anton character is awesome. Casting that actor is exciting. And every scene that he was in was really, really compelling because of the combination of actor and tone and specifics of the moment.

1:00:19So you could say, man, they just ran right at it. They just blew him up. Like he got his big scene. He cut out, he did a less of the Mohican surgery. And then he blew himself up in a tornado. And now it's like, wow, how relentless, how unsentimental this show is to just throw every one of its ideas in the middle. But then there's also part of me, maybe it's a more conservative part of me, that's like, can we slow down here? Like, I love that you have a water tower full of darkness. Yeah. That whole sequence was sick. But, what's he really feeling? Now, as I say it, it sounds lame as hell. Yeah, well...

1:00:51But there was something about the elevated pace. No, I know what you mean. And I also, I think that the thing is is that sometimes, like, the incredible set pieces in this episode got in the way of, like, legibility. Like, I didn't really understand why Zoe needed to sacrifice the entire town to get Hal's ring down to 10%. Yes. You know? Like, it seems like there could have been, like, for all the things that she thought through, unless the whole point is this is what Manhunters eventually do. Yes. You know, because she obviously had this past with Anton. Yeah. That had heretofore not been mentioned.

1:01:24There was the long sequence that was interesting, you know, about how they intentionally take the form of an outsider or someone of lower caste or whatever you want to call it in a society. because that's how you get full perspective on it and then the romantic parts of it and then you get the kind of very like, fine, but aggressively like, oh, I thought you were heterosexual in the line about like the pleasures of the universe. Yeah. But I also, yeah, but again, like that's where, if the show is good enough, which it basically is, you don't think about the A to B to C nitpicks of it, but there were some of them that were more flagrant that I guess either broke up my ability to just let go and enjoy it and not picknets or to appreciate some of the show's genuinely good faith and quite clever attempts at symmetry, whether it's the yellow light that I didn't appropriately notice or that when we think John is taking the ring in the hotel room, it is an exact mirror of, and we haven't seen it, but of Hal's origin story where there's a dying lantern and there's a manhunter and there's the new one.

1:02:33Right. John executing Zoe at the end I wasn't sure why Zoe took a knee on the fourth down there a coward's draw she did seem to have a lot of like escapability what you're saying is she had the tools in her body shout out Howie Roseman to get out of that well I guess she didn't have her iPad which seemed to be essential to executing among the many things a Manhunter has in common with my nine year old the dependence the world eating yeah I mean like the skill the raw talent but also ultimately the limiting dependence on it yeah that's a challenge what about you sent me something I thought was funny we can wrap up on this but someone did bring up the very clever idea of a surf Dracula in that I'd forgotten this it is a really really funny tweet shout out Twitter when it was funny that the idea of like in the old days if there was a show called Surf Dracula Dracula surfed in the first episode he'd be surfing in the first five minutes and he'd just be shredding All of modern television is essentially going away from, we had to get, we had to call it Surf Dracula to get this made, but what this is is my Bertolucci film.

1:03:40No, my Bertolucci film in which a Transylvanian man who's afraid of the water and of bats both becomes a vampire and has gifted his first surfboard at the end of the first season. Yes. So the argument here was, oh my God, is this the most clever, artfully disguised Surf Dracula of all time? Because John still isn't Green Lantern. Well, I mean, he's not going to be, right? Guy Gardner is. Well, I don't, that's going to help answer a question. I don't understand. I don't know what Jim Gunn has done here. Yeah. Because I believe that when he was making Superman, he's just like, I want to do the funny Green Lantern without giving a lot of thought to, we will have to unpack the canonical truth of the Guardians in which only one person from this sector can have the ring.

1:04:22I don't think this is going to be the only season of Lanterns. It's very successful. No, it's not. And I think that, I think these next few episodes will be really fascinating to see to what extent we get Dracula on a surfboard and to what extent we wind up being concerned with other things. I'll tell you, this is a nice... I'm off the hook here because I don't really know anything about Green Lanterns and I don't really... It's not a big deal to me if he doesn't get the ring. Wow. Yeah, I think it's an interesting character beat for him to be like, I've realized that this is empty. Do you think they're Trojan horsing a story about a guy with severe parent issues going back to art school?

1:04:58Like, is this actually a Dan Clow's graphic novel? not Green Lantern. Yes. Incredible. Great to see you. We'll be back on Thursday. We'll talk a little bit about Slow Horses and Chuck Closterman will be joining me to talk about his book Rock. Thank you to Kai and Kaya for producing today and we'll see you guys on Thursday. The community of television awaits.

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