X-Men Casting Rumors and ‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day.’ Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3 Finale.

21:28Andy Greenwald:Well, the level of quality of that franchise is really remarkable over the three iterations and particularly of this one. I would say that this might not even be like, this usually doesn't fall into our bailiwick of coverage, but like, people are seeing a Tom Holland and Zendaya movie as much as they are seeing a Spider-Man movie. I say that from my own household experience where my kids loved it and wanted to see it opening weekend. But I think the emotional engagement, especially for my 13-year-old, is like almost entirely like these absolutely beloved and, you know, adorable, generally, celebrities.

22:04Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And the continuation of their story. And it was actually, it did my jaded heart good to see that I do think the reaction, I'm sure there are, there's a percentage of the audience, which is globally enormous, who are like, oh, I really like the, you know, Daniel Destin Cretton's like renewed commitment to physics when Spider-Man swings into Scorpion really kept me glued to my seat. But really the fact that the moments of tension in the story are, is she going to remember that they love each other or not? And that the movie essentially punted on that for future movies was incredibly impactful.

22:39Andy Greenwald:And so you get to see in real time, like a collision of some of the biggest movies of the last few years. Like it weirdly, and again, I think I'm with you in the sense that I'm like, not like Jason Bateman in Arrested Development, but like her about this movie only because as a movie, if we're going to talk about it by its parts, I thought it was fine to good. I don't think it was like earth changing, but it does seem to unite the same fandom that went to see Infinity War and Endgame with the fandom that 30 years ago went to see Titanic in terms of like, I want to see the love story of our time play out.

23:11Andy Greenwald:Yeah. That is an incredible Venn diagram if you want to be a successful, if you want to be successful at the box office. Did you detect any of the Tom Holland has hit pause on Spider-Man because he was so deeply changed by working on the Odyssey that he wanted to bring some of the lessons of filmmaking that he learned from Christopher Nolan and apply it to Spider-Man? The moment that, made me think of that quote was when early in the film, when Peter goes into a bodega and he sees Ned for the first time and he's like, oh my God, my past has come and intersected with my present. It's a feeling probably Odysseus felt as well as he too stood in front of his non-alcoholic beer brand placed just behind my face in every shot of this scene.

23:59Do you know

23:59Andy Greenwald:what I mean? Like there was an intention to the artistic purpose in that moment. man. Yeah. No, he's just like, the part early on where he's like, even my Samsung phone can't find out what's going on. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I live in the world. I get it. But to answer your question, 100 % no. Yeah. But that doesn't mean it wasn't successful in what it was, but it wasn't that type of movie. I just think that even before he worked on the Odyssey, one of the hallmarks of this franchise has been its willingness to have the types of human moments in both performance and in script that are often the first things edited out.

24:37Andy Greenwald:And like, just as a small moment, like Jean searching for VMAX and it's just the last thing her sister saw. It's been a fascinating case study because I think that was, that was a lovely little script moment. Like that was a nice thing that had some nice emotional resonance and payoff. And then I do think there's a portion of the audience that's just like what did that mean because they're just not used to things are being spiteful commentary on easter egg culture exactly and i thought it was like well said not mean not like a rug pull but it was like sometimes in life this kind of thing happens where you think something is important and it turns out to just be something somebody saw on a billboard or whatever you know uh i take note that you liked those human moments between uh zendaya and and tom holland just because...

25:23Andy Greenwald:Is Chris Hansen here? As a amateur train spotter of like who rewrote what and credited or uncredited screenwriters, Justin Kretzky who wrote Queer and Challengers and is very much like a screenwriter du jour and very popular was brought in to do some rewrite work on this screenplay and apparently the part that he worked on the most were the Aunt May talking to Tom in the bedroom and then Gene later. And then some of the stuff between Zendaya and Tom Holland, but specifically the stuff on Punisher's boathouse. We're going to get to him. And I thought you could tell that it had a lived-in sensitivity that maybe some of the other stuff did not.

26:16Andy Greenwald:I would say that that was also separate and apart from whatever working arrangement everyone had. like that strikes me as incredibly healthy franchise management. Chris McKenna and Eric Summers, who are the credited writers on all three of the John Watts Spider-Man trilogy. Community too, right? Also from the world of community, from comedy writing, have the script credit for this movie as well. But they have not even been shy about, like when Daniel Cretton has been interviewed about the movie, he's like, well, Justin and I were working on this on set and Justin was on. So Justin came on and was the screenwriter on set, which is a much more contemporary thing to have happen in these franchise movies that are constantly rewriting.

26:57Andy Greenwald:Again, I don't have no idea about what was cut or what was added or what the working relationship was like, but that strikes me as very healthy in that you have the people who carry the DNA of the franchise and of these characters to this point, but it is intentionally a pivot and it's a largely successful, certainly financially, completely successful pivot into what the next few of these movies might be like. So having a different tone, tonally different screenwriter on set works. Are you excited to visit New York City sometime in the next six to 12 months, go to a show, go to a play, look at Playbill and see, was briefly possessed by Jean Grey and Spider-Man Brand New Day as a credit for like 85 theater actors?

27:39Andy Greenwald:I thought you were going to say to go to New York and look around for my favorite chippy because I'm actually in Glasgow by accident. Like that I thought would be. there was a kind of I thought there was a nice like kind of almost musicality to like what it was essentially the major kind of villainy of the movie which was Gene jumping and jumping it was cool it was also I feel like you know I'm all about Mia Culpins on this podcast like we were so close in that every time we talked about this movie and then post trailers I was like well I just I don't know I don't know what the movie is I don't know who the villain is.

28:18Andy Greenwald:Anyway, Sadie Sink's clearly playing Jane Grey. But I did not have the creative imagination to make that jump, that she would be the villain. And maybe that's a kudos to the filmmakers because that was a very bold choice to make the villain of this highly anticipated movie not just a new character, not just a new character played by a young actor, but a new character played by a young actor that is also going to be the linchpin of an entirely new franchise. franchise. That's a lot on, on some slim shoulders, but it, it worked because it was surprising. And as you said, the way that they, um, visualized her power was unique and visually interesting.

29:01Andy Greenwald:And then also to your other point, like what happens at the end hints at why this level of power in someone unpredictable and unreliable is terrifying as opposed to, I mean, like this kid got bitten by a spider, but like he can't within what with one thought, take out all of Manhattan. Yeah. And I think that they're the reason why I've always responded to the X-Men as well is because I do think that to a person, all of their powers are curses, you know, and that's not always been the case with the Avengers kind of, uh, era of, of superheroes that we've had in the movies and especially the later period stuff where it became a lot of like I'm so I just shoot beams of light out like I'm just like and you're like I don't even know what you're doing.

29:51Andy Greenwald:Like even Scarlet Witch her powers what are like man on the street challenge what can she do? What can't she do? What can't she do? That's beautiful. All of the X-Men are like kind of crippled by their own their own specialness and it's like it was cool to see them dramatize Jean early on as being somebody who is sometimes only have has like a the most loosest control over what she's capable of and again and people around her who are trying to provoke her to be even bigger or smaller than what she actually is and I think that when Feige's MCU has been it's most successful has been a sense of cherry picking the canonical biographical aspects of characters that work best for the most successful screen version of the character which is a long way of saying, I think I kind of remembered vaguely that Gene had a sister, but that is not historically like a foundational part of who this person is.

30:51Andy Greenwald:And that was really smart. It was just a smart, they found it, they identified it, and they made it better for the story that they're choosing to tell. I just felt like we got in and out. Like, you know, like the sister, rest in power, but like, it was like not a belabored thing. Now, I don't remember, if I, I don't think I knew anything about Sarah Gray. No, I don't think you did either. I say that as your friends and I'll say it to a court of law and I'll say it to these dateline cameras. You never knew her and you never visited her. And that wasn't your burner. Yeah. But, but you know, it was, I'm curious your thoughts on this because you are more actively, not just a movie watcher, but you talk about movies more and, and contemporary movies.

31:36Andy Greenwald:And I think generally like, the bill of fare of what movies need to do these days is just enormous and groaning to accomplish everything. You know, character level, franchise management, setting up the next one, all that. So there is no more, there's no more like elegant shape to a three-act structure, really. That said, I was a little bit thrown in the watching of it that the third act of a Spider-Man movie, which are, I know this sounds insane to say, but are relatively precious and it's been five years since the last one, was this detour into the, backstory of a different franchise's lead who is also the villain of this one it was a momentum i wonder whether or not that's a very comfortable place for everybody who's involved in this to be because you know i i think there is some disappointment that we've had three spider-men and you know i i didn't know spider women i didn't go back through and and and re-watch all those movies so I don't know like where they go they've obviously introduced some iconic villains you mean the previous trilogies yeah the previous trilogies but he's obviously the best person suited to be the new Tony Stark as it in terms of I can drop by for a couple of scenes or I can give this person you know a great platform to emerge right but I don't know beyond the uh like Peter MJ stuff yeah what and with great power comes great responsibility like I don't really know what they want to do with that character and it might just be that he is the ultimate locker room presence and the ultimate vibes guy yes and what they can do is basically shadow pilot backdoor pilot the X-Men now what's amazing about that and you picked up on is that is kind of the role that the character has played in the comics for many years I mean there was it's not just a cartoon that was called like Spider-Man and his amazing friends There was a long-running comic in the 80s called Marvel Team-Up that was Spider-Man and blank.

33:37Andy Greenwald:And it was just a chance to, like, give other characters shine because they would inevitably hang out with him or cross paths with him. I thought the greatest success of the movie, separate and apart from the charisma of the leads, was its real knowledge of and celebration of the idea that this character, particularly played by this actor, is the heart and soul of this massive corporate project. Yes. And that he plays that role both in terms of our connection to it in the real world, but also within the world, everybody loves him for a reason. Like the city loves him. Fucking Punisher loves him.

34:12Andy Greenwald:And that whenever anyone plays in his sandbox, they are in his story. Right. And servicing the type of story that he tells, which is basically a selfless and generous and kind story, which is not always the case for X-Men and Punisher or whatever. And I agree with other critics. I know the Midnight Boys were saying this as well, that of all of the Spider-Man media, which there's been quite a lot, this movie got closest to the comic book tone of this guy every day being like, Wednesday, man. And on a Wednesday, he may fight Tombstone and put Scorpion back in jail and then also be late on his rent.

34:47Andy Greenwald:And then like that is the nature of the character that there is just this rogues gallery and this constant like time to make the donuts of being this underappreciated hero. Now, historically in the comics, he isn't also part of the deep police state with surveillance cameras on every corner. But, you know. Didn't you hear AOC said Woke One is over? You can't get mad at Spider-Man. Well, also, Tony Stark's gone, so he had to partner with Palantir or whomever, you know, for his latest tech. I think he's a much better, like, basically, like, keystone of a world because he's so, like you said, like, he's just so engaging and he is so likable.

35:27It's almost like Iron Man is actually like a testament to Downey's charisma. Yes. Because Iron Man himself is an alcoholic arms dealer. Yeah. You know, like...

35:36Andy Greenwald:I'm sorry, is that bad? I'm just saying, it's more realistic, but it is... Let's say two other things I wanted to talk to you about. Yeah, I can guess one. One is the whole, like, I'm turning into a spider plot line of this, which I thought, Have they done that before? In the comics, many times. Okay. But only in the last, like, 20, 30 years. And some of that storyline, you may remember from Madam Web. I do. That's it. Like, that's, the villain in that iconic piece of cinema, I think, was part of a time they told the story where he's just like, I am the original Spider-Man in which I am more spider than man.

36:17Andy Greenwald:And there have been many of us. there was an actor who I almost, I don't feel like we should name him because I hope he has a beautiful career. You know, I feel like he was, there was a lot of ADR in his performance. That was probably the least successful part of it for me, I think, although pretty cool when he fought the ninjas. This is why you work on both sides of the aisle. Yeah. But I wanted to talk about Bernthal. Yeah, I would just agree with you about like, the mutation plot worked as a thematic metaphor for the story and a way to get Hulk involved and stuff but like that is Spider-Man becoming a thing like that is the least interesting the least interesting versions of the character for me they've now done both one is in which he's like I shall become a spider and the other one is I shall become Iron Man in a space suit that also shoots webs yeah it's just a dude man yeah that's what makes him good uh what makes the Punisher good okay no I'm asking you let's talk about it I was I gotta say I was pretty shocked shocked how much this became like a two-hander between Telemachus and Menelaus because the way the movie...

37:25Andy Greenwald:Isn't it Menelaus? Menelaus. You don't think it's like a house? I think in the movie, they were like, Menelaus... In the movie, they're also like, Dad's coming home soon. Fair point. Fair point. I was thinking, sorry. Emily Wilson walks in and she's like, you know how this looks, right? See the way we combine the threads? Adam Webb. Dad's actually not coming home soon. That's exactly right. When he shows up at the beginning and he webs his mouth when he's about to say the F word and they're doing the tank chase or whatever, I was like, oh, they're doing this frantic, friendly neighborhood Spider-Man thing and that might be the extent of his role in this film.

38:03Andy Greenwald:That was not the case. So I was pretty surprised. I would say that it was a good choice of bench management to be like, we have a great actor, we have a great character that you might not expect to be the team up, but in this brand new day, if you will, these are the sort of people that he's dealing with. So I thought that aspect of it was fun. I need you to talk me through the Bernthal of it because maybe it's just overexposure, but I need him. I love him. Not as much as you, but I love him. I need a different color from his paint box. Well, I think you're probably, did you watch the Punisher like I sure did film that he made well the short film that he made with Ronaldo Marcus Green I did watch it and it is shocking that that character is also this character but that's what's cool about comics I agree it's definitely amusing to imagine people being like what else can I watch from the Punisher truly yeah because I never thought you know maybe this is the future that they wanted for us but I never expected my 13 year old to say the words I really like the Punisher yeah tell me more about Frank Castle Phoebe Bridger's album Please.

39:18Sure. Yeah. Like, is he in danger of self-parody? I suppose any actor who goes big like that is. Am I partially to blame for that? Possibly. You know, like.

39:31Andy Greenwald:I appreciate your willingness. Is the constant, you know, invocation of a years old Baltimore police, you know, detective that he played helping matters? Probably not. You know. Especially because I would say the percentage of people for whom this is their first encounter with, you know, big time Bernthal. I would say it's much more people saw this than saw We Own the City, despite our efforts. I thought he was delightful in this movie. I do think it's pretty fucking crazy that the entire film hinges on Punisher nearly assassinating Jean Grey with a sniper rifle. Yes. And instead blowing out Peter Parker's liver.

40:15Yeah.

40:15Andy Greenwald:And then Jean Grey's just like, breathe with me. She's like doing the same doctoring you did after you saw House for a season. Yeah. Where she's like, you'll be fine. Now just breathe. He does. She does do the Neo, like just start pumping your heart again stuff. That's cool. That was pretty vivid. And he also gets off scot-free. Yeah. He's got visitation privileges at the hospital. They're like, who could possibly have shot this guy? I know. And also, who possibly could have shot upwards of 65 people in a series of abandoned warehouses in the Bronx recently? So that's not Staten Island that they keep referring to.

40:50Staten Island is where he lost his family?

40:52Andy Greenwald:No. Staten Island is, I think people are, you were saying, kudos to people for knowing VMAX is just what it is. It was just a runner. Oh, okay. It was just a gag about a shared history that these characters had that determined their dynamic. do you think they'll make more standalone Spider-Man yes with Tom Holland yes with Zendaya yeah because they're married so it probably seems like that also how many days did Zendaya do on this movie versus the Odyssey this is a funny thing about all these actors who have got five movies this year is she's kind of only barely in two of them yes she's incredible in the drama did you see the drama no it just hit streaming I'm gonna watch it she's wonderful in the drama and she's wonderful in Euphoria.

41:37She's good in everything. I have no notes about how good she is. I think that Spider-Man Brand New Day and The Odyssey, while she's good in both, it seems like she was there for like a couple of, like a week or two. She was very good

41:46Andy Greenwald:in her limited scenes and the show. The movie pops when they are together and it was the smart play to guarantee that whatever the next movie is will be as big as this one to delay their reunion. That said, it is just sort of interesting. Maybe we're behind on this. We're just noticing it because it's the biggest movies and the biggest stars, but we are still carrying, I imagine, I know I am, this sense that like when you go to do a movie, it's like we've all seen the Apocalypse Now documentary. It's just like, I guess I'm going to be in Thailand for six months with a lunatic changing his mind.

42:18Andy Greenwald:Right. Like that is not the era of filmmaking we're in anymore. And instead it's like a series of days in Atlanta and a series of days in London or Tunisia or wherever and they wrap you out. And certainly stars of that caliber are able to do that. And it certainly did help that she's, this is the, these are the movies in which they fell in love and that her husband has complete creative control over. So I'm sure it wasn't like a hardship. They enjoy it. It's pushing big N.A. on people. Pushing, yeah. Once again, these celebrities. But, but it, I don't know. I did leave the movie being like, that was all she did in it.

42:52Yeah.

42:53Andy Greenwald:But it's fine. It is a, it's a sign of a successful franchise, I guess, that they didn't act like this was going to be their only time making it, even though it may have been. because the scene when the three friends are reunited has the same spark that the first three movies did. And I am not so jaded that I wasn't like, this is wonderful fun to see these three young actors playing off each other again. Yes. And it was very stingy with that. So in the future, they're just going to like get to know him again? I don't know. I mean, I think the fun of the ending, and again, I think like we should give credit to Daniel Destin-Credden who directed it and the screenwriters who wrote it because there was heart and intention in it.

43:35Like, despite the things that, like,

43:37Andy Greenwald:the boxes it had to tick and the fight scenes or whatever, like, I did think they thought cleverly about how to bring Anne May back and what it would mean and the moments that they did and to leave on a moment of, you know, in the Redditor era where people are like, well, no, clearly Ned remembers now and the spell is broken because Mephisto is too busy, you know, harvesting Ironheart's soul to... No, it's just like that was a nice moment because either the spell is broken or it's just like a moment of you're the guy from the other night and are we friends or whatever it is. That should be enough.

44:13It is enough.

44:14Andy Greenwald:But how they're going to integrate, it does make me think that those characters likely won't be in Battleworld in Avengers Secret Wars. You don't think Ned will be in Battleworld? I would say... You're really pushing your boat out. I would say with respect, Jacob Batalon is probably available and would like to be in Battleworld. My guess is no. Okay. Do you feel like you've been also silenced on the fact that there's a strong take on the internet that the Hulk has been dispatched? We will never see Mark Ruffalo again because he has been too outspoken about Palestine. I didn't see that take. I imagine...

44:53He has been silenced. Won't he be in the movies coming up?

44:56Andy Greenwald:I am fairly sure that he didn't do the press, not because of his outspoken political views, but because he is in Passyunk right now, getting eaten alive by mosquitoes. 110 degrees. And that considering, again, like how totally fine it is to fly to Glasgow for four days and be like, oh no, it's happening again. And then they draw him in the rest of the movie. You wouldn't like me when I'm mad. I think it's okay. And I think he'll be on, I think he'll be on Battleworld, baby. I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX is the bear. The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either going to be okay.

45:37No.

45:38Andy Greenwald:Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. We have each other. FX is the bear. The final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney+. Let's get to another battle world. Hot D. Yeah. S3 finale. Great. Great. Literally great. Great. I have long said that there's no lock on this door. You're free to leave Shawshank whenever you want. No, the only prison I'm in, I'm the jailer. Trapped in up here. Where do I want to start with you with this? I want to start with you. I mean, I want to know. I think that my appreciation for this show is greatly aided by podcasting with the wonderful Joanna. and Mallory about it.

46:28Andy Greenwald:You get context. And so I get context. I think I also got drawn into the lore more this year. And while I did not read the source material, I've done a lot of, you know. No, you're like the guy in college, the kicking and screaming. You don't read the novels, you read the criticism. I read a lot of like, you know, supplemental texts to aid my understanding of what was going on. I don't think that was smart because I think it would have been better to go into this as I guess you probably did being surprised by outcomes if that such thing were possible. Well, yes and no. I mean, there's a level of surprise that is not veering into wonder that actually speaks to my, I think, deep disinterest in this show and the world that it's attempted to build in the sense that, like, this episode opens with Rhaenyra getting news of Aegon's proof of life.

47:22Andy Greenwald:Yeah. And I was like, is she happy about that or sad? That was my level of remembering who cares about you. When she instantly bursts into tears and starts screaming, did that convince you that she was sad? No, frankly. Because it was just like another day in the office. Why don't you get on the grill and cook a little bit here about how you felt about the finale, but now that we've reached the end of this third season. I mean, look, I think it's the same conversation we had about the season premiere now in the B side of it. in that the show at its, I'm sad to say, I would have said at its best, but I think the third episode showed that there's a different version somewhere inside of here that they could have explored had they been able to or had they gotten started on a different creative foot.

48:10Andy Greenwald:But other than that, other than that, like, zag, I think the show is at its best a series of dots on a timeline and with some spackle. and so this was another significant dot. I don't think it's the sign of a successful show, certainly a mass market show, that I can watch it with, admittedly, like the mindset and attitude of a deep casual at this point and be like, half of what's happening in this episode could have happened at the midpoint of the season. Yeah. And then the secondary follow-up to that is, well, at least if they were stalling, because all shows manipulate time and audience interest.

48:53Andy Greenwald:I mean, that is the nature of serialized storytelling in this medium. At least were the diversions worth it or memorable? And I have to say, I don't think they were ultimately. Like, if you think about how at the beginning of the season, we were pointing out things like, here's a promising strand, here's a promising strand. And at least in this season, we seem to be able to focus on them. And one of the promising strands was Kristen Cole and Gwaine being like fog of war friends. but halfway through the season, Kristen Cole's like, let me be real with you, I'm on a suicide mission, Doug. And Quain's like, okay, peace.

49:27Andy Greenwald:And then Kristen Cole gets got. Yeah. And literally one person is like, hmm. I'm reacting to that news. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, Laris and Aegon, we're going to get a road trip for the ages between these two kooks. And then as soon as there's an army coming, Laris is like, so you're committed to this then. All right, see ya. You know, like that feels like watching other people play chess in the park as opposed to being on the board with them. And that's a bummer. And that's separate and apart from my reaction to other specific things that happened in this episode. It's interesting you bring those two different things up.

50:02They were among my, if not my favorite, I mean, Laris and Aegon actually was one of my favorite threads of the season.

50:08Andy Greenwald:Primarily because of the actors, though, I would say. I think that the reason why I reacted so strongly to episode three, which is the one that shot almost entirely from Rhaenyra's POV, or at least her experiential kind of understanding of what's happening around her was so refreshing was because it offered the show, A, like different feel and a different tempo and a different look, but B, it was an editorial decision. It was like curation of an experience. Yes, someone is making something. And I made this point last night to Mal and Joe and I don't think I made it very well, but I feel like this episode could have really benefited from the same kind of like, honestly like pretty cutthroat treatment of Allison in this episode where they're like she shows up in the last 30 seconds to be like I feel a disturbance in the force yes and that's because that character probably was not with any other characters that she would have a conversation worth hearing about but I don't know necessarily that I feel like a lot of the conversations that happen at various points in this episode had to happen as many times as they did um I felt like there was a lot of repetition of statement of intent statement of like allegiance whatever it is um and i think that i think that this gets to a little bit maybe of the source material stuff you know the game of thrones series is adapted from a series of novels that are written from the perspective of very specific characters um i think that that is one of the great acts of adaptation that I've ever seen, frankly.

51:42I mean, like what they did with those books. And regardless of how you feel about the end of it, the last season of it, to make you feel, to make, I think, equally people who have never read the books and have no idea what's going to happen next and people who have been waiting years to see the things that are about to happen take place, to equally satisfy those two parties is a really amazing act. But I think part of the reason why a lot of stuff in House of the Dragon winds up falling maybe a little flatter for you than it does for me, but not super 100 % successful for me, is because it's being adapted from this very odd source material.

52:19And a lot of the events that have transpired and will transpire are, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. But they're not necessarily evidently about family, or about Or personal transformation

52:35Andy Greenwald:or growth or learning. The things you need, the things that TV shows are made of. Yes. And they went through great lengths to try and establish that by having a younger cast play Rhaenyra and Alice in the beginning of season one. They went to great lengths to establish character stakes by putting various people at Harrenhal dreaming their lives away with Alice and Kristen Cole's kind of like, you know, road to nowhere. And like they've tried to do the work. And I do think when I talk about it with Mal and Joe, I'm definitely like, oh, like this is really, there will be moments where like Damon talks to Rhaenyra in High Valyrian and that's when he's trying to encourage her to see herself as this God thing.

53:21And like there are good flourishes in this show, but I think there's something very static and a very kind of like reportorial about.

53:28Andy Greenwald:It's infuriating. For example, there's a version of Rhaenyra and Emma Darcy's performance is exceptionally strong doing a lot of thankless things for the back half of the season. But there's a version of the character of Rhaenyra whose mission and whose goal is to honor the legacy of her father who was a good king and trying to be like him but is frustrated in that ambition. The version of the character we have on House of the Dragon is one who's reduced to shouting Reddit prophecies to everyone to justify... That's off book, by the way. All of her behavior. Congratulations. Not to you, but I just mean like, but that is kind of infuriating.

54:10Andy Greenwald:If you are pointing to a larger canon or a link to the other series in order to justify behavior that really only makes sense in a history book about like, man, everybody was crazy, you're in trouble. What you're speaking to about what it's lacking in relation to other shows is the feeling that we need from filmed entertainment of both emotional investment and the possibility of surprise. There are very few Tony Gilroy's, but if you look at what he did with Andor, which is also a story that had an ending that he was writing toward and how when he stepped into the series development process, he was like, no, we're just not going to do that.

54:50Andy Greenwald:We're not going to do the obvious thing where we start the marble here and then we just roll it down. We are going to tell a story about a rebellion and we're going to use this track in ways that you would never expect to get there and suddenly you care about characters and within the creation there are characters that have their own mini arcs that give us some meaning and sustenance. My biggest frustration about the show is that it shares this deeply nihilistic worldview that Game of Thrones ultimately shared that I think thinks it's smart but is honestly fucking stupid. And particularly in the case of this show and I'm sorry it's a little bit gloves off because I found this episode so infuriating and ultimately the season may be more infuriating because it gave us evidence of look we actually have a lot of life and spark here in some cast and in some creativity and in some production design that we can show you when we're allowed to.

55:36Andy Greenwald:So it's almost like I'm feeling harsher because of episode three. But if the fundamental belief of the show is that, guess what? Both sides are bad. That's not actually as galaxy brain as you think it is. That's actually kind of nihilistic and just deeply unsatisfying. So both sides are bad. We're not rooting for everyone. And death and ruin comes to them all at the end what are we watching for and i'm not saying we need some like glimpse of hope that like um you know what's his name not ulf the other one hugh hugh's well maybe hugh will have a happy ending it's like well literally no one gets a happy ending because that still is somehow the the the currency of the land is that everything sucks so in the big finale there was a moment when the big crazy guy from the north is banging his shield and they're all banging their shields.

56:25Andy Greenwald:And I was like, well, this at least is trying to give us some sense of cultural otherness or place that these are the warriors who do this thing. And the thing that they do has this effect on people. And it's not just running towards people until dragon fire makes them run the other way. And I was like, that's kind of interesting. And then it culminated in him just having like a few good moments of, you know, I don't want to get Chris Hansen in here again, but using his sword on Ormond before he laughs at the dragon fire engulfing them both. I'm like, man, I really hope James Norton enjoyed his time in Leavesden, you know, like the catering on studio.

57:01Andy Greenwald:I can attest to it has a really, there are some really nice options because otherwise, what are we doing? You know, again, damned if you do, damned if you don't, like they got a good actor to like have a little bit of a prissy personality and do some things. A season long villain arc is not. A season-long villain arc in rooms until he gets stabbed up the butt. It's like, okay. Yeah, well, you put it that way. There are worse ways to make a living, you know? But there are better ways. But there are maybe better uses of our time or uses of our actors. I just found that so, all of the carnage and all of the intensity and the violence being amped up to hide the fact that there's nothing else there so that even what the season appeared to be chasing was Damon, who is a one-dimensional monster, wandering around in the fog of war being like, damn maybe we went too far I'm like I don't believe you he's also a girl dad though okay now now can we lean in and talk about what's interesting to me the choice to make it about the Targaryens I think the like the court of George R.R.

57:59Martin has proved me wrong like I I have sounded this sort of note where I've said that's not actually the most interesting thing about in my experience Westeros is not the Targaryens their arrival their conquest of the world their various insane kings a couple of the good ones their fascination with flying nuclear weapons and their inability to control them I think that that was so much more interesting to me as a product of myth and history in the series Game of Thrones than it is in practice in House of the Dragon and I actually think that's probably as good as dragons can look like on screen you know what I mean like in terms of executing something.

58:44The reason why this show takes two years to get on the air is probably because it takes a long time to get the dragons to look as good as they do and for the battle scene like Tumbleton to be executed the way it is. And I, you know, I hate doing this. I hate being like, the show should be about Kristen Cole. But like a show that was about the bastards and broken things beneath those powerful people is a more interesting story than me than...

59:06Andy Greenwald:The challenge of talking about the show season to season, and I imagine it's frustrating to some of our listeners, is that it does all come down to the original sin, you know, and we were, maybe we'll talk about it in more detail next week, but I'm so fascinated by what FX did with the show Adults, because basically John Landgraf, the head of the network, was like, I believe in the show, but we screwed up the beginning. We're going to make a secret new prologue pilot as a mulligan. That rarely happens, and it certainly couldn't really happen with a show like this. But it is all stemming from that original decision, because there are interesting things here, but you also have to consider, if you're considering the fake history that George R.R.

59:41Andy Greenwald:Martin wrote, you also have to consider the history of Warner Brothers Discovery and what it was before that and the failed spinoff that they tried to get off the ground and how they needed to have some dragon content on the air to continue to justify all the other shows that they were making and the decision to make something that felt safer because it started with where the other one ended, which is dragons. Like you begin to have some understanding of that. Like it is a much harder sell and a much tougher to explain to your executives as well as your boardroom that like, so in this history, there's a character named Sir Ulf who likes to drink and what his, his decision-making swings history.

1:00:17Andy Greenwald:And we're going to tell that story. Now, I, I'm not saying that I could do it. I'm not saying that any screenwriter alive could have pitched that successfully, let alone pulled it off. But that is so interesting. And it is the eighth best expressed thing in this finale. Do You know what I mean? Like he's a drunk and he's pissed off at everyone, but they gave him a nuclear weapon and look what happens because of it. Like that is compelling. And when you're making the show, I'm sure the people making it were like, at least we got to do that too in addition to everything else. But that's not the focus.

1:00:49Andy Greenwald:And so it feels really disappointing, I think because of that. I'm glad that there's multiple, like if you're going to do game of Thrones the way they're doing it, I'm glad that they've chosen to do this and night of the seven kingdoms. Yes. And that, you know, I mean, I know that Aegon's Conquest is being rumored to like start shooting next year, I think. Like it sounds like they're very serious about that as a movie. But I, you know, I still I remain fascinated by this television experiment to like bring this stuff to life and the conflict between the source material and the actual stuff on screen.

1:01:24What's what's Anaya Mizuno's character?

1:01:25Andy Greenwald:Miss, what's her name? Masaria. Yeah. What an arc. What a legendary arc this season. Someone finally comes up to her, tears in their eyes. Sarah, Sarah, you must go to Pentos. And she's like, no, my place is here for no apparent reason. But sometimes I sleep with the queen. Can we just say, in the 14 years that we've podcasted, this wacky medium of television has taken us to some outlandish places. Recently, we went to Venus, where it turns out we shouldn't have landed in Star City. They definitively told us that. I would say of everywhere we've ever been and everywhere I've had to spend time for television, I think there is no place worse than Harrenhal.

1:02:06Andy Greenwald:Like, it is borderline insane to me. I mean, maybe they had the standing sets and they had to amortize them over another season or something, but like emerging from such like a lethargic prison box where Matt Smith, a compelling and charismatic actor, is just yelling at a tree for half of the season. Then you just take another character and put him back there. And everyone who shows up there, it's a dream, kissing my mom. No, my brother's here. I'm like well he was he really was actually there yeah didn't know that at first but he was there Tom Glyn Carney is having the time of his life in that scene and that's I pepped up at that moment I appreciated that scene a lot but like can you man of the people bastard and broken thing can you explain Alice Rivers to me can you just yeah she's like Melisandre so she's a magic lady she's a lady who made like a deal with like a like lowercase devil like she made Mephisto because she tried to was a keeper kid alive right and it didn't work no but the price she paid for using magic was like she could never leave Harrenhal and it's like basically keeping her alive but she can't leave and so she's trying to bring people to Harrenhal like to have more babies to have babies who are going to be powerful to like right correct the institutional wrongs done to her it's just a bummer if you have a friend that won't leave their house I don't feel like you're sincerely listening to me no I'm listening but I'm like if you have a friend that won't leave the house, then you got to have other friends.

1:03:30Andy Greenwald:You know what I mean? You can't always go over to their place. It's true. You can't do it. So where are you? Where are you? I'm fine.

1:03:44I was sufficiently entertained by like the Tumbleton battle and like the sort of the things that got checked off the board and what's to come. It's not coming back until 28, man.

1:03:56Andy Greenwald:I just I think I was really worked up and like respect to the show and like a classic. This pissed me off way. Way because I just thought that the this the the pointless savagery of the end just struck me as very cynical. Because why? The Helena part or the just the battle? No, I didn't even know. I didn't even care about that. Like, oh, the butterflies are fleeing because a magic girl jumped out of a window. I have no I do not care about this character. I just she was knitting more prophecy. It's cool. That's cool. It's like a new Supreme drop. Like, Rainier's going to wear that, you know? Exclusive piece.

1:04:34Andy Greenwald:Speaking of a Supreme drop, Helena. Damn, son. Where did you get that? No, it's just in terms of like, we don't use, I don't want to use the word earn too much, but I'm just like, give me some presence or stakes here other than another piece on this board to get to where we'll get in 2028. Yes. Well, you're, like I said. I'll say it's just risky business to have a show that feels like so, so, so claustrophobic and then have a major plot point be how someone can't leave a place. Just maybe that's why I'm reacting. We can wrap it up there. I do want to talk about adults. It's second season is coming soon, but that's an interesting industry story and interesting TV story.

1:05:11So maybe we can file that with like our Thursday roundup of stuff. Thanks to Kaya, Kaya and Sarah for producing us today. Thanks to you.

1:05:18Andy Greenwald:Are you, are you, do you want to go check out the shards or you don't know yet? uh reviled critically that makes me one of that makes me interested uh does it okay no i mean i you've been actually while the cat was away the mouse mouse was watching television smashed evo he watched you watched a little bit of sterling point because i mentioned it to you have you you have not watched the shards no you watched the adults prequel you're up on the on furious very up all the way up. Okay. Fat Joe and Remy Ma all the way up. Okay. You love it when I, I know that you, it charms you. That's a very current reference.

1:05:53Yeah, it's good.

1:05:54Andy Greenwald:As opposed to, I sat on the fact that all season Tumbleton makes me think of the Pusha T-Track Brambleton. I sat on that until the end of this episode. It's for, it's for the real heads who get to the very, very, very last. That one was for Kai. Thanks very much guys. We'll see you on Thursday.

1:06:15We'll be right back.