You Should Watch ‘The Fall and Rise of Reggie Dinkins.’ Plus, ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ E2 and ‘Industry’ S4E3.

21:26Andy Greenwald:I feel like that was good for us. Was that like a G? That guy? G? Remember that? Yeah. The guy who played in an empty gym against a chair with nobody in it. Was it the same chair Clint Eastwood debated at the RNC? That was a big year for chairs. I wish we could go back to that. Mr. Obama, I disagree with you. That wasn't that long ago. I know. Um, anyway, uh, yeah, we don't know that. So that's exciting and interesting. But there's also, now, look, somewhere off camera, Mallory and Joe could be laughing at this, the ignorance of this comment I'm about to make. But because I am trusting the show as it's been presented to me, I feel confident making this statement.

22:05Andy Greenwald:I don't think Duncan is going to be decapitated in episode four or have the Jamie Lannister-ed one of his arms. Take that to Kalshi. You're right. Right. Yeah. I thought Kalshi was an Essos. I was so confused by what you were saying. No, I'm just talking about making a futures bet. Right, yeah. No, that's good. That's good. I was mixing it up with Klarna. I was just thinking about all the ways we're bankrupting ourselves. Klarna's the thing where you can pay for a burrito three times, right? In like installments. They tell you three times. And then Harper Sterntau shorts your burrito purchase.

22:38I think they're just going to short the Klarna, yeah.

22:40Andy Greenwald:I think that's right. Anyway, that is also a different relationship with watching a show like this and honestly watching a lot of prestige television shows, this stuff still works if you take out the dread. The dread is not an essential component of contemporary television. It was kind of the special sauce that boosted the last 20 years of this stuff because it was definitely absent from the years of watching like Empty Nest and Golden Girls or whatever. Although those Golden Girls were quite up there in age. You know? Imagine the prestige version of it. where the specter of death is looming over every episode.

23:18Andy Greenwald:Anyway, I find that really, really pleasant and really, really enjoyable. I think they're doing a lot of, I mean, they are, as they should, banking on the talent, just the acting talent that you can get. You mentioned Bertie Cavell, Sam Sproul, people we weren't familiar with. Like, I don't think I'd seen Finn Bennett before. He's in True Detective Night Country. Oh, that's that guy. Yep. I've enjoyed his work. Yeah, he's really good. he's a chameleon let's say I think that they got man they geo located like these sort of tired but malevolent but maybe not all malevolent old like fading monarchs in the way that those guys are playing these the Targs and you know they don't have the Targaryens no longer in this show there are no dragons you know not it's not a choice they've said the last the dragons are gone you know Did they say that on this show?

24:14Andy Greenwald:Yes. That was before I turned the subtitles on. But also, I didn't care. I want to be clear. Yeah. Makes no difference to me. I didn't think, for budgetary reasons alone, I knew that one wasn't about to fly in and land in the middle of the parade grounds. Yeah, and he was like, Duncan, you sure are tall. And then they high-five, freeze-frame. I just like their way that they are characterized and the way that the three actors so far playing the Targs have kind of agreed on a tone. It's always interesting to me when that's good direction, that's good writing, and that's good ensemble acting, is to be like, where are we at?

24:53You're going to be like this, I'm going to be like this. But none of us are in a different show. None of us are really hamming it up. They leave that to Daniel Ings, who's doing an incredible job as Lionel Baratheon, who we get a little bit of tug-of-war with.

25:05Andy Greenwald:Also, you know what was really cool, what was relatable, was the interaction that Duncan has with the Night's Guard in his fancy outfit. and he's just like, I'm just a son of a crabber. But he's a fucking Nepo baby. Yeah. How do you feel about that? I was like, that's the problem with our economy too. Nepo babies? Well. I think there's a couple other things going on too. I don't know. Let's just do a game where we just shout out the problems. Do you think I'm a Nepo baby? In the realm of criticism? Yeah. Yeah. I do. And frankly, it's always rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, you're not beating the allegations.

25:44Yeah, it's true.

25:45Andy Greenwald:It's true. You know what I mean? There were a lot of opportunities for you that you could have taken. We're at. Print media, you know, newspapers. Yeah. You could have stayed in that lane. Mr. Gerald Enquirer was like, Chris, you are the prince who was promised free, please. I think there were a couple other points. One, I didn't know. I guess maybe I've seen, have you seen full team scrimmage jousting before? No, but that was fucking awesome. Yeah, that was cool. That almost made me be like, we should get multiple football games played at the same time. Like the four box. Yeah. All on the same field.

26:22Like all of them on that snowy Mile High Stadium. Yeah. And have the Seahawks playing at one end against the Rams. That's pretty cool. And then they have to fight in the middle. I don't know.

26:33Andy Greenwald:That's kind of Quidditch, by the way. Daniel Radcliffe could have told you about it had you run into him. But yeah. Yeah, I think that that was like an effective, like a really effective way of showing like Duncan's lack of preparedness for what he's getting into, you know? He was a little stressed. Yeah, I think he was like, this is faster. This is more violent than I thought it was. You hear stories about it or you squire for somebody and it's like one thing, but it's another thing to be like, shit, that's going to be me. Or remember when the last time we saw Jousting on a Game of Thrones show and it was intercut with violent childbirth.

27:05Andy Greenwald:Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. I don't know if you remember, but the real battleground is the womb. Was that the end? That was the pilot episode of House of the Dragon. Oh, that's right. It's the real battleground, son. The womb's not up there. No, you have to think about the womb. Yeah, thinking about the womb is the real battleground. Like, these are all the problems. Do I have to spell it out for you? I see the big board. Last thing, I'm curious. Maybe we'll talk to Ira Parker at some point, or you guys will. You could ask this. I'll write the question before you take my answer off air.

27:35Andy Greenwald:Okay. like did they have in their edit process did they have non-super fans eyes on the product meaning I would say as someone who is relatively unspoiled but not wholly unspoiled and I don't think this will spoil anything a lot of lingering shots on Egg this episode I would say Thumb is heavy on the scale I mean it's just good storytelling it's like this kid's not like the other kids you know because of I think also just because of like his alarm at seeing the Targaryens arrive or his knowledge of... Maybe he watched House of the Dragons season one and two. He's like, oh my God, we're all going to be stuck talking to a tree for six weeks.

28:14Andy Greenwald:Fuck. I thought we were going to have fun. That's it. That's probably what he's thinking. Yeah. So you don't feel like you're being overly... I mean, there's only four half hours left, right? So you don't feel like we're being overly indicated like anything's being... No, I think it's just like decent. I mean, clearly like he's important you know this kid yeah yeah yeah he seems important but how important it will be interesting you know how important and how like I like the idea that they can tell stories in this world without everybody being a messiah yes or an arch villain and it's very I never thought I would say this about a Game of Thrones you go back to like the moment of like Jamie and Brienne doing their like road trip that's like to some people maybe even myself included that's like that's like the best Thrones gets and so it's nice to have a show about that.

29:05This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else but that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world and this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn more at VW.com. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like analyzing plot twists, TaxAct guides you step-by-step to make sure you get your maximum refund.

29:44Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts, or let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit TaxAct.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See TaxAct.com for details. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us. The intersection of interest that inspires a run crew. The support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going.

30:23Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. This episode is brought to you by Hotels.com. Save Your Way is a new feature on Hotels.com and it's as simple as it sounds. When you book a trip as a Hotels.com member, you decide how to use your savings. Take the instant savings now or bank the savings as rewards for later. It's your call, only at Hotels.com. Save Your Way is available to loyalty members in the US and UK and hotels with member prices. Other terms apply. See site for details. Let's get into industry.

30:55Andy Greenwald:Yeah. In a lot of ways, I think that this could have been, And I mean, they needed to have the first episode to introduce new characters and to introduce new stakes. And that first episode of this season was largely about Tender and its relationship to the OnlyFans-esque company that I can't remember. Siren. Siren. And the Cal Penn character's dismissal from the CEO role. Is he one and done, do you think? I would imagine we will see him at some point. Go on. Knowing the way industry... Recycles characters. It's not even recycles characters, but people come back for their pound of flesh. You know what I mean?

31:34When they get wronged. Or not. Maybe they just come back and get a job like Kenny and everybody else. Everybody's fine. It's been remarked upon by us and by many other people, and I believe by Mickey and Conrad in talking about the show, that this is a soft reboot. You're rebuilding the plane mid-air in some ways. And so because of that, I think that this episode also functions as a season premiere in some ways because at least in terms of now we have established a new company with Harper and Eric. They have brought on some familiar faces and some unfamiliar faces to work with them. By the end of the episode, you've sort of got the Avengers getting into an elevator.

32:12Thunderbolts. Sure, that's a good way of putting it. In the meantime, Henry has emerged from his winter of discontent and taken over this role as CEO that could be somewhat ornamental, but seems like he's taking it much more seriously. and he's brought Yasmin along with him to be his comms consultant and to just be... His minder, basically. Yeah, his right-hand woman. And it just felt like this episode had the thriller pacing that I think this show thrives on, even though I enjoy the slices of life and the kind of more, the moodier pieces. So what did you think of episode three?

32:52Andy Greenwald:Well, I want to start with what you said because I think that that's hugely important. Every week we've talked about this season, I've been marveling like the who's that dude who just climbed the skyscraper? Alex Honnold. Yeah. Perhaps not literally similar in terms of risk but so perhaps that's a bit grandiose but I will say it would be great if when he was doing that you could have like why you know if he had an earpiece and was like Alex do you think this is more or less impressive than Mickey and Conrad getting in? Doing a soft reboot for industry season 4? Back across the pond. I do watch the show, though, with a perhaps slightly less, but still a remarkable appreciation and respect for the risk.

33:41Andy Greenwald:It is also, as we joked about last week, a remarkable counterpoint to a show like Landman that basically took an entire season to do what they did almost in the off-season between seasons three and season four. one of the greatest things about industry is its unwavering commitment to always being the most extra slash best version of itself. And it just has complete disinterest, story-wise, in what Mickey and Conrad are not interested. It just doesn't deal with it. And I think that's incredibly good writing advice. So give me an example of what you're talking about. So this episode picks up, we learn, you know, in a throwaway comment that it's been one month since the last episode.

34:26Andy Greenwald:I, like the people who make the show, have no interest in how Henry set up his CEO office or his decision-making to bring Yasmin on or her reaction to it or how they found this weird, crumbling, post-Nazi Austrian bank to be their front. Yeah. Similarly, I loved the way season three ended for Harper and Eric and the characters that we had been invested in as the status quo crumbled around them. It worked. it was really effective storytelling and it was very dramatic and compelling. That said, I don't think I'm interested in her life and career at Mostyn. Neither were they. I'm not really interested in Eric's retirement or his life away.

35:08Andy Greenwald:It doesn't matter how they got him back. I want them back together. And once you accept that, I think, because there is an urge in all things, especially as podcasters, to explain everything. To make sure everyone... It's also a very easy way to make many television episodes. Yes, 100%. by being like, and then, and then. And maybe this is also an American thing of like, I'm going to show my work, I'm going to do all this extra, and they're like, fuck it, that's funnier. That's more interesting. Let's go towards that. Largely, I would say a lot of the discourse of online commentary about television shows is more or less boiled down to plot holes and narrative sort of, like basically pressure testing narratives and being like, well, they didn't say that he got across the street, so I assume he's invisible, you know?

35:54Like, it's like this sort of stupidity that is now bred into -

35:58Andy Greenwald:Was that your recap for the game Frogger? What is the context of that observation? No, it was my spec on Nightcrawler from X-Men. Or it was the dark story about the chicken. That definitely got pitched around. Dude, last night when I was - Never mind, I don't have to digress here. Was it about Nightcrawler? No, it was about House of X and Power of X. Okay, we'll put that - We're not doing Eagles talk this week. We'll do - Hickman talk. Yeah, we'll do nerd talk at the end. The biggest example of what I'm trying to say in regards to industry is Rishi. One of the best characters on the show, in many ways emblematic of the growth of the show, from someone who was a background, not afterthought, but certainly not the focus, to someone who forced his way through Sagar Radia's performance, but also his utility and humor and everything he brought to the show, forced his way into the main conversation.

36:47Andy Greenwald:Last season ended for that character in a real heat check moment, I would say, for the show. where his bookie shoots his wife point blank. Is his bookie or the, like. He's in hot, he owes this guy. Yeah. In front of him. And I was like, this is a real, they've really painted themselves into a corner here and it's a real challenge to themselves to get out of it. I didn't remember how they operate. And what I mean by that is, I am very interested in the version of Rishi we've seen so far in the season and how they are using him. Yeah. I don't really want to know what happened in the one minute, five minutes, five days, five months after the events of last season.

37:28Andy Greenwald:I don't think we will have that. I would imagine we don't. They will probably at some point have to have the Sweet Pea, Rishi, and Harper kind of conversation about like, you know, Sweet Pea obviously feels like Rishi's actions led to his wife's death, calling him a murderer. He's like, I'm not technically a murderer. And he was responsible for the leak of her OnlyFans or whatever it was. Yeah, siren. Yeah, so that was, but again, that's a smart use. Stern Tau's HR policies have yet to be defined. I would say that's accurate and we can circle back to that as well as tenders certainly in terms of company offsites.

38:00Andy Greenwald:Yeah. But the best exploration and explanation of Rishi is to just put him with Cigar giving that performance in the room with Sweepy and letting her react to it. That's more interesting and that's forward facing. And inevitably because of their relationship with the actor and the character there will be more Rishi. But I think that that's really been appropriate and a lesson to people who struggle with the like, oh, I've trapped myself. How am I going to get out? Yeah. I really like that. I also think that there's some, they built some danger into the show because they have said goodbye to characters.

38:34They have let Rob leave. I'm so glad you brought that up. They have let Gus leave. They have let Jesse Bloom leave. You know what I mean? Like, they don't just keep you around just to keep you around. Now, you could say at the end of this episode, there has to be five other bankers in the world other than Kenny and Sweet Pea if you wanted to. But in some ways, I think it's indicative of the specific personalities involved in terms of Harper and Eric that they need people to work with them who understand their specific ways of working, right?

39:06Andy Greenwald:Yeah, yes, yes. Who are also quite clearly willing to play fast and loose with what society deems appropriate. period. I'm glad you brought up Rob because all of that, all of my prelude there is a, was a way of sort of hopefully contextualizing my feelings about the show this season and also saying that I thought this was the weakest episode in quite some time, maybe since season one or two. Okay. And we can get into it. I want to talk to you about how you felt about the episode as well. But one of the reasons why, one of the things that I thought at the end of the episode, which felt very, the entire thing felt a little untethered and unmoored to me.

39:43Andy Greenwald:Not just because there is no trading floor, but because characters, for the first time in a while, were, to my mind, performing their inner workings in a way that felt, I'm not going to use the word earned, but felt declarative and not really meeting the moment. So like Harper's sushi date? Harper's sushi date and her unloading it, Eric, felt like the show is asking Mahala to play a very different person episode to episode to episode. Yasmin's complete heel turn back to being the psychosexual manipulator that she has been in the past, I mean, that's consistent with the character, felt, that whole detour felt shocking for shocking's sake to me.

40:31Andy Greenwald:It felt emptier in a way that I think critics of the show have criticized it before, but I've never really felt and the one thing I'll throw on top of this and then I'll give you the floor is that weirdly I felt like the show it's not it doesn't have a it doesn't miss Peerpoint it misses Rob because he was the soul yes and they let go of him at the right time I think that that character art was satisfied I also think that like I think that that was the most honest thing that they could do because they would just be like a guy like this just yes would not fucking hack it slash had sort of like a self-regard that would be like, I can't do this to myself anymore.

41:10Now, I don't know what Rob is doing in California. Like obviously the end of his character arc in season three suggests he's back on his bullshit, like selling things that people don't need to people with too much money. So great. But I hear what you're saying. I think I had different reactions. I mean, I think I mentioned last week that I was like, characters on the show are now entirely like vocalizing like an interiority that usually stays interior and in some fashion and i think that um that's in some cases that's just called style like that's how sorkin writes and that's how jesse armstrong writes and different different writers have different ways of of externalizing people's psychology and emotional states and also using characters to vocalize and verbalize things that they feel about the world and things that they feel about whatever the hell they're talking about in the show or movie.

42:06Yaz rang very true to me. They're doomed. They might be doomed people. And I think that you get like 35 seconds of it's you and me in the open road and everything is in front of us baby and now it's like very quickly slipping back into like Henry is talking like a corporate mouthpiece again and Yaz has to exact her power over him and the ways that she understands how and maybe also the reason why this is one of my favorite shows of all time is because people are fucked up and do fucked up things

42:48Andy Greenwald:I do want to say another admirable thing about the show that sets it apart is that the creators are not overly in love with their creations. Yes. Yes. Yes. There is a tendency baked into television that over time, the audience softens towards the characters, even ones who we've seen do bad acts and the creators feel similarly and they steer them towards the light or give you more and more of their humanity and often in effect defang them. Even shows as Pantheon as Mad Men did this. Not with every character, but they fall in love with the actor, they fall in love with the performer. One of the core tenets of industry that I think critics often miss is that these guys, these characters aren't just fuck-ups, they fuck up constantly.

43:41Andy Greenwald:What has Yasmin been good at professionally with all of her fumblings over towards doing this and trying this instead over three or four years. Maybe being the dramaturg for psychosexual inappropriate workplace relationships, that might be her calling. And so I don't want to be able to have the conversation with you that we're having because I don't want to fall back into a criticism of, but I like her. I want her to be better. That's definitely not what I'm what I'm saying. I just felt like the, when you move as fast as these guys do story-wise and you break things sometimes along the way, it can be hard for the audience to catch up to where the characters are in that moment.

44:32Andy Greenwald:So the Eric Harper thing, I did have a moment, not as someone enjoying the scene between two actors that I love, but someone who has watched four seasons of the show being like, Eric needs to get away from this destructor, this eater of worlds. Of course he's not going to. No, of course not. This is the only thing that makes him feel alive. But then within the context of the episode, as she is just eviscerating him before she leaves work and eviscerating him when she comes back from her meal in which she didn't eat, I want... Did you just think she was hangry? Yes! Thank you, yes. I want to see what he is deciding to commit himself more because what instead, the way that I...

45:15Andy Greenwald:the feeling I left the episode with, and again, I want to be clear, like I didn't, I don't watch the show with subtitles. I didn't watch it twice and it could be moving too fast for me at times. But when he, when I read the this plus that equals that equation of the episode, Eric felt like he has yet to understand Harper and be the human in her life that she so clearly needs. So as a sign of good faith, he has imperiled his children's future by giving her$10 million or pounds or whatever the case may be. That felt disproportionate to the moment, to me. It moves the story. Well, I mean, so... I think because of the style in which the show is made sometimes, because of the filmmaking and because of the music and because of the cinematography and honestly the beauty of a lot of the performers that are performing the work, it's easy to lose track of the fact that I think several of the main characters...

46:15are on the outside looking into both, to the worlds that they occupy.

46:19Andy Greenwald:Yes. Dyker is a really good example of the Charlie Heaton character who's working at a Financial Times-esque newspaper, is clearly, like, writing checks his stories can't cash in terms of their reporting, right? And there's the illusion that he himself was a speculator or a gambler and lost money. And has lost money, and now is basically asking for this, you know, reporting trip to Africa so that he can continue to investigate Tender. Eric and Harper were last seen during the fall of this investment bank at PurePoint. They have interpersonally fallen out multiple times. Savagely so. And just tried to destroy each other's lives multiple times.

46:58And the meeting that they can get at the beginning of this episode is with family bank investors and small time, maybe not small time, but they get the bare minimum response from the city in London. than it would be Wall Street. So they are outsiders. Henry is noble by birth, and that's pretty much it, and is going through a midlife crisis and obviously has severe mental health problems and probably substance problems, and et cetera, et cetera. Yasmin has gone through her traumatic relationship with her family and doesn't really have a job right now, and is not... One of the things that was so harrowing about the second episode is every time it's suggested that Yaz would leave Henry, he's like, where's she going to go?

47:46Yeah, there's a lot of that. And it's like, yeah, where's she going to go? Where are any of these people going to go? They have grabbed onto each other as pieces of driftwood, as life rafts. And now they are turning the life raft into a speedboat, you know, and going into a point unknown. But I think it's important to remember that even if the characters are viewed as these, like, world killers, as Eric once called Harper, they have a lot of problems and I don't think the show is shying away from that

48:14Andy Greenwald:I think that's really well observed I think one of the things that's been most compelling about the show over time is that we came to it in season one definitely with an American mindset of like I guess it's going to be Darwinian but these kids who come from diverse backgrounds in all senses financially in terms of race class, country of origin you know the alphas will win and then become the rightful heirs of whatever that's a very American way of looking at it. The only life raft that all these people are clinging to is entrenched old money and aristocracy. So, and Henry's been, you know, introduced to the show as an important plank and a great performance from Kit Harington.

48:51Andy Greenwald:And we see the prison of his life, but it is a gilded cage. And a lot of these other characters would probably think they would die to be a part of it because governments change, fintech regulations change, but the people in the clubby rooms playing handball do not change. Yes, and that whole sequence with Jennifer Bevin at the end with the meeting with the current— Ricky Martin with a Y. Yeah, and the prime minister's chief of staff comes in and is essentially like soft launching Bevin's coup against the current— The current, like basically, was it the digital spaces minister or like— But then the press, the tabloids are saying that she's the Labour's heir apparent.

49:37Andy Greenwald:So really it's a coup against whoever is the stand-in for Keir Starmer in their current show. I mean, I think that there are these collections, as always with the show, of just jaw-drop details and moments. And the bad paintings being by A. Hitler is incredible. the one of the probably less likely to be remarked upon but I thought really outstanding scenes and how it was staged is when Harper walks in on Eric's daughter visiting and the entire scene is I believe quite intentionally filmed like there was a prostitute in the hotel room yes it's his daughter well also does the daughter think that Harper is who Eric left the family for well in a way it doesn't matter because she's right either this is the person who caused the rupture in the family or the rupture in his professional stability or has brought him back into their lives in a different way, she is the disruptor.

50:38Andy Greenwald:The daughter's right about that. And then he gives her a wad of cash and says, tell mom this was a good visit. I mean, the transactional nature of everything on the show, that was just really brilliantly and beautifully staged. I think maybe what I'm feeling in terms of what to my mind so far this season the show has been less successful at is stitching these small observations and these incredibly radioactive in the best possible way characters, stitching them together into something that feels as propulsive and as clever and as almost seamless as the show was last season. But maybe that is also a byproduct of they broke it.

51:18Andy Greenwald:They intentionally broke it and now they're beginning again. So I'm definitely, like these lighter criticisms I have are not, like I'm not turning my back on it. I'm interested in how they steer everything back together into a larger tapestry. Yeah. Because right now, and this is another point I'm curious your thoughts about, Tender is being presented to us in a way in which all of James's skepticism is true. It is, and this is also to do with, I think, Max Minghella's performance, which is pretty sneery, supervillainy. They're bad, right? And I don't know if the show is more narratively compelling or not, if there's some doubt about it, but it's been three hours of television and all they had to do was take a trip to Sunderland to find out that this is as corrupt as something can be.

52:07Andy Greenwald:So what's the next card to turn? Sure. Is it that tender is good, actually is good? Right. Or is there, you know, again, these guys and this show, they're not simplistic thinkers in terms of how they view the world or in terms of how they make a drama. but to this point it seems pretty clear not what's good and what's bad we're past that but what's factually true and maybe ultimately the most important a lot of talk about narratives and story so maybe that's the ultimate takeaway from the episode is what Eric says is that none of that matters unless you have the winning story yes which I thought was compelling and also you know as a recent convert to Bill Ackman's work didn't know about his battle with herbal life uh really fascinating.

52:53Andy Greenwald:Yeah. Did some Googling. There's a documentary about it. Are you up on some of his more recent opinions as well? Fascinating. Fascinating character. Just morally just consistent and just seems like a really good guy. I, oh, I'm the only one in the room who's willing to say it. I just feel like, I guess I respect dangerous thinking. Guy has a lot of her money in Pershing, so she's just a little nervous. I thought that was interesting. I didn't know anything about that. I can't say I've been like, wasn't really clocking billionaires until relatively recently. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Because don't care? And then now that they've all revealed themselves, I'm like, oh, okay.

53:30Andy Greenwald:By the way, I'm glad that you refused your invitation to the Melania screening. I was busy. I wanted to watch the Broncos. You wanted to watch Reggie Dinkins. I wanted to watch Reggie Dinkins. A couple of things for me. It wouldn't be the same show. It would probably be too big of a swing and too crazy. I would have fucked with Jim Dyker being the hero of this season. or the protagonist of the season. And Conrad and Mickey getting in the newsroom and doing like, how do these stories get assembled? And maybe there will be more, like he'll be more featured as the season goes on. It was kind of fun to be in a different workplace and talking about different actions and consequences of a job in the same fashion as the way investment bankers talk to one another.

54:21There was a lot of overlapping off-screen dialogue happening in the newsroom there. I also just thought it's worth pointing out that while I'm like, oh, it would be cool if you guys just straight up made this show about a financial journalist looking into multiple companies out there and trying to get Harper to help him, it would also take away from the fact that I do think, as we've commented before, the central love story or the central relationship of this television show is Harper and Eric.

54:51Andy Greenwald:Yeah, and I think I'm... Maybe I'm basic, maybe I'm soft batch, but I think I need more of that. I think that Harper as Shiva, Destroyer of Worlds, is a compelling character and has been unique and compelling for three seasons. And I think that the show has been appropriately delicate with backstory and trauma. As she says in this episode, my trauma was traumatizing. So that's, which I thought was really effective line and true to character. It was funny when he was like, it seems like you're triggered. They're great together. Ken Long is such a good actor. He's so, I think it's just remarkable to watch him play different gradations of the same person in different times in life.

55:37Andy Greenwald:And he can make himself, you know, as a man who I believe is probably 5 '7", roughly. He can make himself huge or small. With really subtle ways through performance. Like the episode where Harper goes off the grid in Berlin with her twin brother. And so we remember that from the past. We remember that relationship. It's not unintentional that one of the first things she does this season is shred a card from her mother, I believe. So it requires a light hand to backfill some of the humanity of the character. But I do think that the show, and I'm sure they are aware of this as well, and there's episodes to come.

56:19Andy Greenwald:And as we always say, we don't watch ahead. But I think that the way that Eric was backfilled with his family and his relationship to his family and his choices and his relationship with, is it Bill was the boss that he... Adler. Adler was the boss we sabotaged last season. I get where he is, like, echo-located in terms of, like, his emotional journey, despite my criticism of his willingness to sacrifice everything. Harper, less so. And so I think that to make that the relationship that is going to, you know, provide the ballast for the season, I think I need more. And luckily there's more episodes.

56:55Andy Greenwald:So it is not, this is not prescriptive. I think I was feeling that this episode. How did you feel about the Austrian vacation? I thought it was very funny I thought it was very funny I thought that it's one of those things where I could see someone being like whether they think it's on the nose or more of like an ideological convention rather than a scene of dramatic characters I'm like compared to what? What else on TV is doing anything like this? I actually loved the moment after the three way and when they get home not not the oyster uh breakfast oyster no when henry sort of scolds yasmin for giving for facilitating that guy's op-ed yeah and that was uh you know perhaps um paternalistic or or whatever of of uh henry to just be like know your place like don't go around my back and use the media for to fight my battles or whatever but i did think it was like the grades of the way that these aristocratic fail sons kind of judge one another and what their sort of red lines are.

58:06Yes. You know, and he's like, he's not just like writing homages to the Wehrmacht or whatever, you know, like, or the Weimar Republic or whatever he was writing about. You would know based on your Effinger's reading. Oh, did I mention that?

58:20Andy Greenwald:Sorry, I just, I've just been reading so many great books lately. Have you actually cracked a new book since then? Yet two. You know I like to do a two-track strategy. I don't know how you finish anything. I mean, I'm not watching TV. So, you know, I've got a little pocket of time. Okay. Where was I? Oh, I just really liked that scene. And I think a lot of these plot lines are really in their infancy. I don't know that IBM Bauer is done now and they've fixed it. I bumped a little bit on that vacation only because it was reminiscent of circumstances we've seen on Succession relatively recently.

59:06We all have to get on a plane and go and do this.

59:09Andy Greenwald:And woo someone who is a little bit, whoa. Right. So that's how they do it in that country. But it was a good illustration of Whitney sort of in this Harper-esque place of outsider. Yeah. and you know and again another person where it's just like this is his shot this is he's making his run here with this merger and his idea and his big talk about Bankkiller and that's how these guys I guess assume that they have to talk and think if they want to build their pile yeah and I think it's similarly like the show doesn't hold your hand in understanding that like this isn't a fringe company and that it's attempt to become a bank or a bank killer is of incredible central importance to the labor government.

59:58Andy Greenwald:Yes. You know, yeah, of course it should be because you want this goes back to my first point, push the show towards the most interesting, most dangerous places. So and in an industry's case, as quickly as possible. Yeah. And I think that that is that is the DNA of the show that has allowed it to be successful and to grow exponentially season to season in terms of interest, viewership, and success. So this is me wholeheartedly. I believe, you know what, I believe in the strategy. And I think that the, you know, it's like, it's like putting your money with a, it's Stern Tau. It's a little bit, it's a little bit aggressive.

1:00:38Andy Greenwald:Yeah. It's one directional. Yeah. Omni, single, it's like, you're really going one directional, not like Harry Styles. No, not like that. But But I just mean like, it's like those guys are talking about at the breakfast table. They're just like, this is insane to just be a short only play. But even that, that's something that I really love. Because it was like, that struck me as something that is a great television thing, which is aware of the character you've built and the plot decisions you've made over three years. And Harper consistently just seems to be shorting things. The entire business is built on these like pivots and being first or being, and like getting around the bend before everybody else.

1:01:16So when a person like Harper keeps pitching these people, these guys are all going to eventually, like one of them is going to be like, she could be onto something. It's worth a little bit of money to find out. Well, that was the Jesse Bloom thing. Yeah, exactly. But what I'm saying is it's using something

1:01:29Andy Greenwald:that they had already established. Because I think that if you look at all of her big bets, they've basically been shorts. And I don't know, again, I might not be remembering it correctly. I don't know if any character was like, what's up with you in shorts? You have no confidence in things, thus reflecting your character about like how the world works and the, you know, and your place in it that you just don't buy any of this great man bullshit. Well, that's right. But now they have, what is, I mean, Yaz uses the word narrativize. They, Mickey and Conrad have narrativized that. That is now the business model.

1:01:58Andy Greenwald:Well, until season five when she's a real builder. Exactly. Yeah. She could have built back better. It's infrastructure week, baby. That all works. I tried reading House of X, by the way, which is the Jonathan Hickman run. I've read it. I think I've like read it. Like I've read Gravity's Rainbow. Like I've started a lot. Yeah. Are you doing this? I'm not doing it chronologically. No, but are you, first of all, I appreciate your candor. Are you doing this because you feel like X-Men are coming back into your life over the next two years thanks to the MCU and you want to kind of get in front of it?

1:02:28Andy Greenwald:I picked it up because I have a anthology graphic novel of the two. It's like Hox Pox. House of X. House of X, Powers of X. Powers of X. And then there's also House of M. That's 20 years ago and you don't want that. That's the Scarlet Witch thing. House of Power of X, right? Okay, and I have a book of it and I was like, oh, I did download the chronological version of this, but then they were like, we just did that for fun. You shouldn't actually read the story that way. So I'm trying and like, I mean, it's very, very good. It's very dense. It's very dense. We're talking about many, many timelines.

1:03:04Andy Greenwald:So for people who don't know, the last great reinvention of a property that Marvel publishing did was now this is already five years ago the great comic book writer Jonathan Hickman responsible for a lot of the big big ideas that are now going to be put on the screen in Doomsday and Secret Wars in terms of like multiversal incursions and all that yeah don't blame him though no don't blame him he took over the X-Men and just kind of industryed it in the sense of like I am going to profoundly and forever change, or so we hope, the status quo by not throwing out, building on this franchise's radical history of reinvention and radically reinventing it.

1:03:46Andy Greenwald:And so in these, I mean, it's not even worth getting into all the big changes, but the biggest one was instead of Professor X versus Magneto and they're superheroes and supervillains, it was this idea that's always been coded into it, that mutants are a race. And in this world, they come together. They live on Krakoa, the mutant living island, which has been canon since the 70s, and start a new society that will negotiate with humanity and give them access to pharmaceuticals and things, basically in exchange for being left alone. And they do things like combine their powers, like weird, dumb joke characters, combine them into a team that can resurrect any mutant forever because Professor X stores their memories and lives in their brain.

1:04:31Andy Greenwald:And so they have cured mortality. and this is a story that goes across timelines and across outer space. It's like jump, I think the timeline jumping is a little confusing. And it was really worth it and a way forward that of course the demands of comic books meant that Hickman was like, did it for two years and was like, cool, I think I'm going to go do something else. And they were like, well, we'll just keep doing it for a year. And then they were like, and now it's over. Yeah. And everybody's different again now or back to the way they were and it's hugely disappointing. But look at you jumping on this.

1:05:01Andy Greenwald:Doing the work. I mean, I just had that lying next to my bed. So I was just like, I want to take a break from screens for a little while. And from Effingers, I guess, which you haven't quite picked up. Did you, are you, is this of interest to you if we're doing a little comic book talk at the end here? Are you aware of the biggest success story in comic books of the decade? No. Which is DC Comics' absolute line, where they did kind of like what Marvel, in a way, what Marvel did 25 years ago, where they were like, in a lower place sales-wise and culturally, certainly before the movies. And they were like, we're going to create a new separate universe called the Ultimate Universe, and we're going to give our best creators free range to what would happen if the X-Men and Spider-Man happened now, in this case, the year 2000.

1:05:47Andy Greenwald:Okay. And that's when Miles Morales, who's now famous in the Spider-Verse movies, came from, not originally, but eventually. So DC basically did another corporate-wide fuck it, and we're going to create new versions of Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Martian Manhunter, with the very, like truly the best of the best creators. Okay. And with kind of twists on the origin story where Wonder Woman is a princess, not of Amazon, but from hell. Oh. And Batman is this, you might not relate to this, is a son of working people. Oh, yeah. He's not a Nepo kid, you know? Like, so that might be your limit. And they are selling at a rate of like comics haven't sold since the 90s.

1:06:32Andy Greenwald:Really? and like the collected editions are sold out everywhere. Absolute? Yeah, absolute. Yeah, and people are, they're awesome. I just started dipping a toe into them. But it's very cool. And I think that one of the things - I've never really fucked with DC, but maybe I'll check it out. Me either. I think the thing that's been interesting is the relationship between these publishing arms that for a while, one of the reasons why Marvel felt, one of the less reported on, I know Marvel is completely reported on, but I think one of the reasons that Marvel did get to dominate the world is because they had been kind of incubating really cool ideas and concepts for so long that the MCU could pick and choose some of these things to varying degrees of success, but like certain versions of characters or there was canonical blueprints for them.

1:07:14Andy Greenwald:Sure. Or for taking things in a different direction or doing kind of what if, not just the series what if. And now, and then over the last 20 years, the comics, with notable exceptions, sort of had to service the continuities of the movies in this forever attempt to be like, you guys really liked seeing Doctor Strange on the screen may I interest you in 30 years of Steve Ditko's It's vertical integration times a billion which I don't think has ever really worked so I think what was cool about DC coming from a place where the movies pre-gun weren't hitting and still I guess the jury's relatively out on that they were just like we're going to be a publishing company and we're going to do bold things and it's paying off What a great recommendation to end the show on Do you think people made it this far?

1:07:55I hope so I mean I think our industry conversations are always something people look forward to, I think. That's nice.

1:08:03Andy Greenwald:Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to Kai. Kai, which absolute comic book will you be picking up between now and Thursday's show? I mean, where do I even begin? How do I choose? Wonder Woman and Princess of Hell kind of describes Kaya, you know? Just more of her world-beating attitude. That's right. Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to Kai. We'll be back on Thursday with some Pit, some other stuff. You know what else is this week? Speaking of comics, Wonder Man. Oh, you know what? which I kind of want to check out. I want to check that out too. So we'll be back on our Marvel bullshit this week as well. Great. Thanks everybody for listening and watching.

1:08:35We'll talk to you on Thursday.

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