Chocolate for Ageing? Friendship & The Nervous System Explained

0:28We always recommend Shopify. welcome to the wellness scoop your weekly dose of health and wellness inspiration and as always we are here as your hosts i'm ella males and i'm rianna lambert and after a decade in the wellness industry we know how overwhelming and confusing health advice can be so we created this podcast to cut through the noise and make healthier living simple fun and personal and guys as we are coming up to our one-year birthday we just hit as of last week five million downloads which is mega every time you say the numbers i just laugh it's so this instinctive protective mechanism of shock i know it's because we were like let's do a podcast let's keep it fun let's keep it light let's not film it let's just have a chat about all the things that interest us in health and wellness and then in a year five million downloads listeners in over 100 countries it's unbelievable thank you guys yeah thank you so so much and we've been picked by apple as a recommended podcast haven't we this year yes they have a new living well section and we are number one in the carousel for loving the skin you're in which i loved so much that they chose us for that category just because i think we feel sometimes that wellness is so overwhelming it feels quite difficult to be a part of sometimes and i think that sense of empowerment and inspiration is so important to the both of us.

1:56I completely agree and what we've created with this community is just so so special and today Ella we have got a fantastic show so do you want to tell everyone what we've got coming up? We have okay we're going to talk about the difference between plant-based and vegan we're going to talk about why one burger a week might be the key for our planet's health loneliness in our 30s and why friendship is finally being reframed as a health issue, the science behind social connection, inflammation and longevity, a little bit more on dark chocolate and the aging headlines around that that we've seen recently, the nervous system, vagus nerve and why we're all maybe feeling a little overstimulated and what actually helps calm our nervous system and what's just hype.

2:37So we have a really nice mix of wellness this week.

2:45Ella I want to start with how you've been this week because my goodness me I have seen some epic things with you and quick wins this week and it's so exciting yeah it's been a fun week so quick wins as of today it's top 10 best-selling books on Amazon in the country which is fun so thank you Debra's bought it still half price on Amazon if anyone wants it quick wins healthy living for busy lives. But I did the Chris Evans Breakfast Show, which was super fun, did Davina McCall's podcast, that we had a quick wins taxi whizzing around London. So it's been a bit of a jazzy week, actually, my end. I did make a joke.

3:19I don't know if you saw underneath your Instagram post, but I said, why can't you pick us up for work in the quick wins taxi and then we'll pop down to the studio? I know. I wish we could have done that. That would have been so fun to organize. So yeah, it's been a fun, lots of press. I mean, I have to be completely honest, this is based for honesty and transparency. I don't like doing press. And I just say that not to be ungrateful, because I really appreciate it. And I appreciate it as a kind of vehicle for our message about simple health and changes you can make and empowering people to get cooking with butter beans and courgettes and make that stir fry for supper tonight and why it matters.

3:55But on a personal level, I guess after almost 15 years in this industry. There is this part of me now that just so loves this medium, for example, being able to speak just directly without your words ever being changed or chopped and turned into clickbait or sensationalized. And I just feel like this is a safe space. My nervous system is activated. I think it's important for everyone to remember, and I do myself, so that Ella hasn't always had an easy ride in the media and headlines can change. We don't have any control over who writes the headlines in the paper. So I guess Ella, you could do an interview like we did once, and then it gets changed into something that's sexualized, you know, as a title or something drastic that you really didn't say.

4:35So it's nerve wracking putting yourself out there. And I think what we love about this podcast is that obviously we're friends and it's safe, but it's also the fact that we have the time for context and nuance. I know. That's why I love podcasts. But Rhi, same with you. You've got the cover of your new book right oh my gosh yeah fiber formulas out there everybody and if you pre-order before the end of January you can win an overnight stay at Champneys Ella oh okay well I've already pre-ordered so maybe I should be the winner all you have to do is pop it underneath the Instagram post on Retrition I've tagged it but I'm not going sadly myself I mean sometimes I think I should just keep these prizes for myself but I don't I give them away guys pre-order have a night away you listen to the wellness scoop on your way down there go to the spa feel very zen you can do what i've been doing this week i have been making loads of miso soup and can i just recommend that as a really easy nice january thing right so miso soup just um on that note is something i've always assumed is a very quick thing you buy in a packet but obviously would have tons of additives if you buy it so how do you make yours okay now this sounds absurd so just bear with me guys my five year old loves miso soup so does mine ella so does mine okay she's obsessed she loves it so it seems like her favorite place and i know it's very bougie but she loves it so and she loves the miso super it so and since we moved out of london she keeps saying to me make me miso soup anyway do you know the brand clear spring look this isn't sponsored this is just a personal recommendation they make little pouches um little sachets of miso with the various different ingredients to make the miso soup.

6:14I was quite skeptical that it would kind of meet her standards because she loves miso soup so much and she won the real deal. Excellent. But I made a broth first. I just had some leftover like schlats and leeks and a sweet potato. So I boiled those up just like an hour. You don't have to do anything. You literally leave it boiling. And then I drained that and then added the paste, a bit more soy sauce, seaweed, some tofu, silken tofu. And then I did some noodles to make it more filling. It was the easiest supper. I know you are making a broth for an hour but you literally do nothing you chop a few things and chuck it in water and put a lid on like super super easy that is such a good shout miso soup something very different i have to say you need the noodles though you need to turn it into a meal you need the extras or rice and the broth is delicious as well but with the tofu seaweed um spring onions and then yeah either a noodle or a rice in there on the tofu ella where do you buy because i've been looking again Again, not an ad, but I really want to try these tofu goujons.

7:12I was thinking of you the other day. Where are they? Oh my gosh, the new all plants ones. That's our other favorite thing. Do you know what? They're such a cool product, actually. I'm so proud of them and they are flying. They have just launched the all plants tofu goujons in Tesco's, Waitrose, and Ocado. And I have to say, just getting a food brand going is not easy. And we got into Sainsbury's last spring and then Tesco as of beginning of January. And that is just such a mega milestone. So I'm like the All Plants team are phenomenal. And it's just a very cool step for us. I feel this year, and we're going to discuss it more, I can't remember if it did this week or next week, but there's a huge change in the market space.

7:54I feel like there's been a huge consumer shift. And we will discuss it in more detail. But even for me on New Year's Day, Ella, I was called my first interview of the year was with LBC News and I was being asked about plant-based and veganism and we'll get into it in the show but they asked me do you think veganism isn't popular anymore and it was a really interesting question to ask. Do you know what it's actually such a myth of us we should have done a section on this because there have been so many headlines on this like veganism is over is this the end of veganism obviously which we talked about lots of sensationalism here and actually maybe this is a perfect moment to kind of segue into our headlines to talk about this.

8:33I think the difference between vegan and plant-based as per that interview, I think it's quite important. I'm going to say, just can I be super controversial here? We said this is a safe space. Look, I don't love these sensationalist headlines. In a way, look, I don't think this is a bad thing. And I know that people might be like, hold on a second, you're all about vegetables. Why would you say that people saying veganism is a bad thing, is a good thing. It's just that my challenge sometimes with our food landscape is that it's so binary. And we love labels, And we love a sense of kind of dogmatism and being really dogmatic and like putting ourselves in one camp or the other camp.

9:08And for most people over the course of their whole lifetime, I'm not talking about six months, I'm talking about decades. Being in one camp or the other probably isn't very sustainable. And what I love instead is this focus on like plant first, plant rich. Let's, you know, like all the campaigns around like eat more beans. I love that. Let's get people. We'll talk about that in a minute about reducing their meat intake. and eating way more plants and it's so nutritious and it's so good for the planet it's brilliant all around i think there was a there was an argument though ella that um because the terms were misunderstood i'm so with you everything you're saying because marketeers had used the term plant-based to represent vegan food and it had got completely misconstrued from what it actually is and i think you're right less of a label because they were scared to put veganism or vegan food on their products.

9:59So instead they use the word plant-based, which I do think is better. That's why I wrote the plant-based nutrition book, because it just means you can eat whatever you want, but just focus on plants. Yeah, you're basing your diet on plants. And I think that's the important differentiation here that we thought was worth noting as part of this conversation today, is that what veganism is referring to, and it's why I am not a vegan, because it doesn't matter how many vegan recipes are right, I'm not a vegan because it's a whole lifestyle. and you've got to sign up for it in every facet be that you know the clothes that you wear the makeup products it's all driven by ethics fundamentally it's not about health it's an ethical consideration which deserves huge respect and appreciation oh my goodness humongous things we don't even think about and it's just so hard because even your car seats can be made from the more i know about it the more i'm kind of horrified by the agriculture industry sometimes with animals and everything.

10:54But I do think there's a lack of understanding that veganism is the omission of everything in your life that's based around and derived from animals. Exactly. And plant-based is actually completely different. Just more accessible. The reason, and I remember looking at it in the science of plant-based nutrition, and again, for fibre formula, if we just approach the fact that plants should be more of a hero, and I know that's what Ella and I discuss all the time on the podcast, I think we'll just go further with making changes that are more realistic. I think it's worth just differentiating this difference.

11:26As we're saying, vegan is this kind of holistic, all-encompassing lifestyle, which is driven from ethical arguments. And as I said, that deserves a huge amount of respect. Whereas plant-based came into effect in the 1980s. It's much, much more recent by an American professor of biochemistry at Cornell called Dr. Thomas Colin Campbell. And that was created to describe a high fiber, vegetable rich diet. he actually then later added whole food to it. So he was then talking about a whole food plant-based diet. And he was looking at and distinguishing a plant-based way of eating from a vegan or vegetarian diet, both of which massively predated, because he wasn't looking at the moral, ethical, environmental considerations.

12:07His viewpoint and when plant-based was created was all to look about the effect of nutrition on long-term health. And so I think that is really important. Veganism extent way beyond what you eat it shapes all your life choices whereas plant-based refers to your diet so you don't have to be a hundred percent anyway i just think with this whole like veganism is dead situation i think it's just an important thing which is like actually for most people that's maybe not something that's that they're going to incorporate in their life but if you're plant-based you don't need to be like i'm yes no all the other things it's like just root your diet in plants we know there's so much evidence there the interviewer said to me he's i said well actually I said we all need to collectively change the way we eat anyway and I said not just for our health I also said for the planet because we've got data there and he said and he's a great interviewer a lovely guy but he said but where's the data from what data who's telling us that you know eating more plants is better for the planet and I was like well there's a whole body of research you know we discussed the Lancet in Stockholm in 2025 you know the big papers that suggest the planetary plate and I tried to explain to him and I said that's why I felt there needed to be an encyclopedia on plant-based nutrition because there wasn't one.

13:15That was my motivation for writing that book after the science of nutrition. But it's so interesting when you hear other people's opinion. Well, what data? Because it didn't get any press. Do you remember we were discussing this last year and it's like there's an anti-eating for the planet movement at the moment. It's being blocked by media. Does that sound right? Yeah, I think it's, I don't know, the whole thing just feels very complicated and sticky, doesn't it? But But I think when we're seeing all these like veganisms over headlines, I think it's just important to differentiate. Vegan is a ethical, moral, environmentally driven lifestyle decision, which is completely different to dietary choices where you're trying to focus on whole food plant based ingredients.

13:58They are two fundamentally completely different things, even if sometimes they overlap with recipe content. Because people that are plant based can still eat small amounts of animal produce. And I think that's what's really often overlooked. So Ella, let's move on, although that felt like a headline in itself, to the headlines that matter.

14:20Okay, we have two quick pickups in this section. The first one, did you see there were more headlines on Botox again? There were some different beauty industry leaders last week. So after the headline that we talked about, calling for these treatments like Botox and fillers to be classified, interestingly, as high risk procedures. And that's all part of this effort to move away from what they describe as profits over standards culture and have this much, much, much stricter safety regulatory oversight. I just thought it's so interesting because it's become a kind of high street situation and it feels like the same as getting a manicure almost.

14:57And actually lots of people within the beauty industry are saying, no, no, no, no, no, let's not say Botox is the same as a manicure. This is a proper medical procedure and we need to treat it as such, which I think is great because it's all part of this regulation. I mean, if it were labelled high risk, it would change everyone's perception of it just being this everyday thing that everybody does and every woman's entitled to because that's the label it currently has. Yeah. Anyway, so we'll keep you updated on that story because it's very interesting. And then another update, which I think is quite interesting.

15:25Obviously, last year we talked a lot about the kind of new government legislation on diets and trying to get us to eat more healthily. And the junk food ban in terms of advertising is finally in effect as of the 5th of Jan, so not long ago. But more headlines on this one because there's a pretty obvious oversight here. There's a huge loophole. Do you know, it is great. And I saw somewhere, I haven't written this stat down in the brief, that we could save another 70 ,000 something food choices by having this ban of advertising because we are influenced by what we see. It does drive our behaviours a lot of the time.

16:06So there could be positive elements there. But there is a problem that you can still advertise. So these companies are not banned from advertising. They just can't show the product. Yes, exactly. So I think what people were hoping was like, right, pre 9pm with the watershed, you wouldn't be able to advertise less healthy products. That's true, but you can advertise less healthy brands, just not the specific products. So I think, you know, we were already talking about how it feels like a plaster on a gaping wound. And I think when you look at it from this perspective, even more so, because ultimately it's like the Coca-Cola Christmas ads is this feeling that these brands evoke and this sense of aspiration or wanting to be a part of it that's so effective, probably more so than a specific product and so ultimately you can still have this you can advertise a logo a slogan general imagery it's the music ella for me the minute you said coca-cola christmas ad in my head i'm holidays are coming hol do you know what i mean and all it takes and it's also positive and lovely and fantastic and you can't see the bottle with the actual product in it as would be on shelf but you can see everything else and so you still get that like you still get lovely feeling and for children watching it they're still like oh I want to be a part of this world so it's a shame isn't it really because we're still going to have the same advertisers they're just going to change the brief it's a step forward and I would love to see well because we've waited years for a sort of ban and then it didn't come in and it didn't come in but it's a step I think it's a step but it needs to be enforced it's a shuffle it's a shuffle let's not use the word chef it's a shuffle of feet by millimeters two way forwards but you know we were promised this years ago and it never went forward so finally it's gone forwards but it's not good enough it's not good yeah I would disagree I think it's a rambles I think it's sort of pathetic if yeah pathetic pathetic watershed pathetic we need more no because we do we've got to inspire people for change and ultimately I think it's like it's that thing where you want to say you're doing something but do nothing at all and like who wins there.

18:13Well, you're right because they're taking the money, aren't they? Because at the end of the day, those companies are the ones with the cash and they're the ones that pay for the TV channels. So they're not going to get rid of them. They're never going to get rid of them. But then it's almost worse than doing nothing to some extent because it's so absurd. Anyways. Oh, it's such a big issue. Oh, so hard. Right. Headline one, Ella, is totally opposite. We've got forget fitness plans, improve your health by making a friend. I know that headline in particular was in the Times and it was why making friends might be the health habit we're missing.

18:45And I just loved it because in January, you've got all this wellness noise and all these plans and all these supplements. We're going to talk about peptides next week and people injecting themselves with NAD plus and all sorts of bits and pieces. And there's so much noise around all of that. And this was like, forget all that noise. You don't need all of it. Actually improve your health by making a friend. And it was all based on this neuroscientist called Ben Rain. And it was a simple, powerful idea. basically that we do. We spend a lot of time when it comes to our health and wellness thinking about food, about movement, about supplements.

19:17And we barely think about what he was calling our social diet. And yet that social diet, our social connections have such an enormous impact on both our physical and our mental health. Yeah, completely. And the scale of evidence behind it is Hugh Jeller, one study that tracked around 300 ,000 people over roughly seven years. I mean, that in itself is gold research. And it said that people who spent more time with friends had a lower risk of dementia, heart failure, diabetes, and also, of course, alongside that, lower rates of depression and anxiety, because it links to the fact that we need social connection, like we've always said on this podcast, and they experience less stress, even pain tolerance, Ella, which I found really, really interesting.

19:58And we're around 50%, 50 % less likely to die prematurely. Absolutely extraordinary. I know it was really interesting the way he was framing it in the interview was like, if you told people you could get all of these benefits, you'd be quite keen to sign up for it. Like, yes, take my money. I'll do your plan if I get all, you know, 50 % less likely to die prematurely. But there is no plan. The plan is to call a friend, go for a walk on them, whatever it is. And, you know, basically how it all works is that these, and he's very keen to express and not alone in this, we are talking about, unfortunately, real world social interactions.

20:37We are not talking about sending a DM. We are like face-to-face conversations with people. And those trigger the release of neurochemicals like oxytocin, serotonin, and they make us feel calmer, safer, more connected. And dopamine as well, really important. You get a big release of dopamine. So you're getting all these feel-good neurotransmitters coming around your body and this amazing mood lift from interacting with people. And that's so powerful. So, so powerful, Ella. And the research framed it in such a beautiful way that socializing is essentially medicine as well, like a small dose of benefits that people need, because we've got to think about the neurochemicals that we get from social interaction.

21:19And we talk about things all the time, like dopamine and all these things when they're released that we obviously are not getting a hit of every single day because we're doing more online. We're not getting that face-to-face or, you know, human interaction we're used to, these can help protect us from chronic inflammation. It's just so interesting because we always strive for those pillars of health. And I feel like we need to have another pillar now that is social interaction. I totally agree, because I think it's sort of, if we think about these four pillars being our diet, our exercise, our sleep, our stress management, you know, you could sort of put social connection to stress management.

21:57But really, I totally agree I think that sense of community and connection actually is our fifth pillar so guys 2026 five pillars of health to be thinking about not to be stressed about but to have in your mind what you're eating how you're moving your body how you sleep elements that manage your stress and how you connect with people okay so the wellness scoop our community we can become the fifth pillar yes we are the fifth pillar guys we're here for you and do you know what what actually they had you know quite a lot of info on the kind of backdrop of all of this that I think is it's pretty depressing to be honest which is that over the last 30 years and this was like in America in particular the number of Americans with fewer than four close friends has risen from 27 % to 49 % half the adult population have less than four close friends and by the time people reach their 70s they're spending on average seven hours a day alone so I think it's this sense we often talk about loneliness as an emotional issue, but actually as a public health issue, which I think is a really interesting reframing.

23:01And one of the other points that I loved, I don't know how you feel about it, Rhi, but it speaks to me completely, is that we often underestimate how much we'll enjoy socialising. You know, I think sometimes it's easier not to do it than it is to do it. I know I'm like that sometimes and I'm like, oh, I'll just stay at home. But actually when you go and you make an effort, you have such a lovely time. it's true most of the time in the winter I do find a hibernate in the summer I want to go out I will always stick with that but yes because he actually said that friendships quietly slip away you know it's not an overnight thing that we don't realize it because it's so hard when we're just busy because most of our time is consumed with work and then if you have a family on top of that as well that is your weekends and you don't really spend much time we don't have the village anymore so we're not interacting in that way with our children at the weekends if you are single at the moment you don't have a family are you actually going out and mingling in the way we used to because the guardian recently ran a piece that's called the loneliness fix and it said i wanted to find new friends in my 30s and it was easier than i imagined so that's a nice one i think this topic of loneliness is being picked up quite broadly and i think i thought it was nice to include that guardian piece as well, because actually, and like, I'll be the first to say it as well.

24:16I feel lonely sometimes. I don't think it's easy to make friends at this point in life. And I think for lots of us, you know, our life changes, we move, we have different setups, social structures or something. And so, you know, sometimes old friends, it's not that we don't care about them anymore, but maybe we don't live near them and aren't able to see them often. Like I know that's the case for me. And actually for sure, I feel lonely. And that guardian please inspired me it was like actually go out make make a couple more friends it also made me think of my boys because being a mom of boys you know boys don't talk as much just so this is stereotype but i know some boys do but girls tend to be more open and discuss things and need that community and i actually think men do too but there's something in society that stops us so i'm just going to be really conscious of that raising boys it's just another thing on my plate to be like to try and encourage you know friendships and nurture them do you feel like that sometimes, Ru.

25:09Oh gosh, yeah. You know, being self-employed, I know you've been, well, you are there, Ella, that it's 24-7 and my business is run by me. So it's all time consuming. And then I really want to prioritize my children. And there's nothing left for me personally at the end of the pile, you know, to book in going out for dinner. I have to do it months in advance so I can get childcare. It's not easy. It's really not easy. And I do feel it too. Yeah. Well, if you guys listening let us know how you feel on it I think gosh while we were building delicious Ciela I feel like I lost so many friends and not in a dramatic way it's as you said it's just like slipping away because you cancel a plan something's come up and then it's a few more months and then ultimately this like very close friend you start seeing them once a year and it's very different and I think at this point in life it's really normal that and I just feel it's important that we're all open and transparent and honest about that because actually I think it's also easy to be like I'm lonely am I weird or strange or the only person like this and why does everyone else have so many friends in this girl gang or whatever it is and I'm left out it's almost like being a teenager again yeah I've never had a huge girl gang even at school I just kind of had a boyfriend it was a strange dynamic I think I hid behind him but really interesting it doesn't mean you have to hang on to relationships that don't serve you because I do think relationships change.

26:33I mean, in your 20s, your late 20s, your 30s, your 40s, I'm sure that we're in different stages of our lives and different friendships serve you in different ways. But I think we need to either reach out to new ones and maintain ones that do serve us perhaps. I totally agree. Let us know where you guys stand on all of that.

26:53I'm so excited to tell you about my brand new cookbook, quick wins healthy cooking for busy lives i wrote this one to make healthy cooking just simple when life is busy so you'll find fridge-made sappers one pan wonders and batch cooks that you can turn into two easy meals plus we have eight weeks of delicious meal plans to complete with shopping lists so all the thinking's been done for you every recipe also gives you plant points to help you eat more plants you can get your 30 plants a week it'll all help you feel great and just make healthy cooking feel effortless again. So Quick Wins is out now wherever you get your books.

27:31Okay, totally different headline next. One stingy burger a week to help nature thrive. This was everywhere after Christmas. One stingy, I think by stingy we're talking about small, but one small burger a week could help nature thrive. And basically this was everywhere from the mail to the times and all the rest of it. It sounds like a mail headline using the word stingy doesn't it yeah i totally agree stingy was actually used by the researchers believe it or not and it was basically this whole premise of if we want to support biodiversity in this country we need to eat far less red meat than we do now we probably already knew that but interestingly the one burger a week was the amount needed to help biodiversity i see to me that's fascinating and the researchers actually came from the university of edinburgh led by alfie gathorn Hardy.

28:19And rather than asking how much meat we can afford to eat within the environmental limits, his team reframed the question and they asked a different question. How much meat do we need for the biodiversity? So to answer that, they looked at all of the UK's land in detail. They mapped the different habitats, which I think is actually really important as well, because we are losing habitats, you know, with new railway lines being built, housing, there's so much to discuss there with biodiversity. And from woodlands to uplands and worked out how much livestock each could realistically support while helping wildlife because less than four percent is now wildlife ella it hurts me i feel for the squirrels the foxes the badgers can we even say we have wildlife in this country anymore i know exactly it's extraordinary so the amount needed for this was just four million hectares of land for grazing livestock that's our optimum for biodiversity so we do need some livestock hence our one burger a week that's the kind of the ratio it would translate to.

29:16But currently we have 13 million hectares dedicated to grazing livestock. Now, obviously I appreciate there's so many economical implications of this and huge number of farmers and farming families. And I'm not trying to sort of wipe that away, but just from a kind of statistical perspective, I think it's really interesting, this idea, like we need some land for grazing livestock. That's very important for biodiversity, but nowhere near as much as we do. And basically, if you translate it into your diets, as I said, basically, it's a 90 % cut in red meat consumption. So that works out to eating about 4.2 kilos of meat per person, or one modest burden a week.

29:54Yeah, it's around 70 grams as a portion of red meat that's recommended. So I think most people eat more of that in one steak, to be honest, with the weight of it as well. And what's so, so important here is the environmental impact. And maybe we should touch on this more on the podcast, but I feel like it never gets traction in mainstream media. You don't see these types of articles blow up and become TV interviews at the same time. And I think it's purely because there doesn't seem to be a solution. We don't seem to have support from the government to help farmers, to help this kind of transactional approach of farming, protecting the wildlife.

30:30The land always seemed to see as destruction of wildlife. But, you know, it sits aside some of the headlines of the Mediterranean diet, which is good. You know, the green Mediterranean diet I discussed, I can't remember, was that in Countertown Hills? Exactly. A few months ago. And I think what's interesting is it all basically landed up to the same thing. And I think, you know, coincidentally, we obviously talked about plant based versus vegan. And I think it's this interesting thing of like, you don't have to be completely dogmatic. If you are for environmental or ethical reasons, that's brilliant.

31:00And as I said, huge respect for that. But I think for everybody else, it doesn't have to be 100 % what we're seeing here, for example, for biodiversity, coupled with health, as we see in the planetary diet, the Mediterranean diet, the green Mediterranean diet. It's just plant first, plant rich. Yeah, do half, half beans and meat, like start making those small changes. You know, we used to have in this country, it's quite popular at one point, meat free Mondays. You don't have to, but you could reduce and just add more lentils and beans and pulses. And I think that's where the double the beans by 28 comes in, doesn't it?