Could Eating Less Protein Help Us Age Better? Body Image & Burnout

27:54You know, the dawn of Hollywood stars, women, their appearance, sex cells, all these sorts of lines. How much of your body should you expose? How much shouldn't you expose? the music industry in particular it's so cutthroat you go back to that time the circle of shame which single-handedly made heat magazine a success back in the day it's so interesting that this was picked up wasn't it we both really enjoyed that bbc sounds we'll link it for you guys to listen to and they were saying exactly that pre-heat introducing do you remember guys those circles of shames where they'd like take pics of celebs on the beach or something and like circle their cellulite yeah or like a body like a tummy roll or whatever these all these normal normal things before that it wasn't anywhere near as successful as it was once they started body shaming women women and specifically women and this is where ella and i stand really firm together knowing that women face far too much scrutiny as it is i think what's really important here as well is that we we do need to be concerned as a society and when do we stop caring about one another when does that happen?

29:04Because clearly mental health is linked to body shape and size. Everyone is meant to be a different body shape and size. I've said this before, we store fat distribution differently around our body in different areas. We don't all look the same. The bloating question, you know, I talk about that on our Beat the Bloat journey on RePlus, that some people's wombs are positioned differently in their stomachs, which creates more of a protruding stomach than somebody else that you may associate as having a washboard stomach. of it. Ria saw a really good thing on that on Instagram the other day where someone was like, the only place of washboard stomachs and like six pack summer bodies is your Instagram.

29:42Go to a real beach. You won't see that. And it's so true. Like, you know, I don't mean it in a, like a mean way, but it's just like, that's not what real people look like, even slim and healthy and, you know, go to the gym. Everyone has cellulite. Everyone has a role. Like this is so normal. And I think that was why, as I said, we didn't want to talk about all the Ariana Grande headlines because we want to talk about her. We really don't. It's not our business. We don't know anything about her. And all we can hope is that if she is struggling, that she has the best help available to her. But I think we wanted to talk about this because in this world where GLP ones are having a huge impact on culture as bodies are shrinking, I think we have to say nothing to do necessarily with her but that it isn't a conventional healthy body for most people to look like that and I think there's a moment where we have to say if this is affecting you or you feel like subconsciously like you're absorbing it it's not the norm to look that way or to aspire to look that way we have two extremes we have a glp world but that also comes down to a privileged world when it comes to cost of access to drugs but then secondly access to maintain a physique equally that's that small either comes at the consequence the majority time of an eating disorder severe dietary restriction or immense um it seems to be wealth it's there is definitely something linking the societal discrepancies with body image as well and where we're ending up and that's access to food and all sorts of things.

31:25But there's many angles that we can delve into here, but let's talk about her music video, Petal, because I think as an expression, as an artist, I really felt that it was such a fantastic idea. It was such a beautiful video, but what was so dystopian about it was, of course, we don't want to comment individually on what she's going through, but it was sending a message that was very confused. I think that's where the media picked up on it. It's very confused to say, don't talk about my body, but I'm going to highlight my body. That's a very confusing message. And there was a very interesting quote, which I think is very apt from Jamelia Jamil.

32:07Some people liked it. Some people didn't. I liked it. She said, if we comment on her body, we could harm her mental health. And I think everybody feels that so strongly, which would be awful. Of course it would. And nobody wants that. But if we don't comment on her body, we run the risk of normalizing that image, this image we're talking about in Petal, very emaciated to hundreds of millions of teenage girls, kids, and even impressionable adults consuming her content. And we have to remember, even on Instagram alone, we're talking about over 350 million people that follow that single account. And so everybody is subconsciously because this has been picked up everywhere absorbing this.

32:44And that was why I think we wanted to pick it up today, right? Yeah, we absolutely did. And of course, you can't make an assumption either. And this is why I think the media goes straight to, oh, eating disorder. They link things together without much thought or care and forgetting that eating disorders are psychological illnesses, of course. And not everybody with an eating disorder is stick thin and has that appearance. Eating disorders cover a wide spectrum and can impact everybody to those on GLP-1s just as much as those on the other end of the spectrum and everybody in the middle. I think we need to be very, very clear here in society, though, that it is not healthy to be creating these thin spiration accounts.

33:29Do you remember we picked up Hella last year on those? I hate saying it out loud because I don't want to promote it, skinny talk accounts. These aspirational lifestyles. I sent Ella one last night that I'd seen of, it was more of a like morning routine, but she was clearly in that camp. And it was the most overwhelming amount of things to do in the morning. And I feel like these generations that have grown up with social media are exposed massively to that world without intentionally doing so. I was just curious. I went on to Daily Mail online, not because I wasn't listening to because I was just curious.

34:04And like the first thing that comes up in the sidebar of shame is about Emily Atec and her weight loss and pictures of her before and after. And like, we are just quite obsessed with it as a culture. And I, and I think that's why we wanted to bring it up today. So look, that was, I think that's enough for want of a better word on this, but we just wanted to call out, it's normal for us all to subconsciously be absorbing some of this. And we wanted to highlight, yeah, I guess that it's not necessarily the norm for a healthy body or I think we just don't want this to become the norm again. We don't want to go back to the 90s and noughties size zero double zero obsession because it's very difficult for most people to eat adequate nutrition and be well in themselves and be that small.

34:54so we have a voice note don't we really today to talk a little bit about this pressure of celebrity image about body dysmorphia um because i think it does in some way and it's a continuum affect so many people not just people diagnosed with eating disorders but just a pressure to look a certain way because that becomes the norm of a culture i think the cultural when is enough enough comes into question here. And that's why I have a voice note here from one of our experts in the clinic. And I just think it's really, really important that we have these discussions. We shouldn't shy away from them, like Ella said.

35:32For me, it's gosh, the compassion. When you're in a dark place and you're stuck in body dysmorphic negative arenas and spaces, and it's some miserable place to be and I'm sure lots of lots of you sadly can relate with that so let's just play what we have here from our expert today. Hi my name is Dr Suki Bilko I'm a clinical psychologist and I work for the nutrition clinic. Just I can say a lot about this just body image and you know the effects it's having I think like in today's society I think for me one of the main things is it's a bigger epidemic than what we're what was before wasn't partly because I guess there's so much out there in media we're so much more exposed to each other because now we have another community which is the online world and when we have the online world it's not just a community another community we've created in our own inner inner communities it's a community where we're seeing each other more we're seeing bodies more we're seeing people eat food more we're seeing people shopping more we're seeing so much we're consuming so much more than what our brain is designed to see we have so many mirrors now we have so many you know selfies everything's in selfie view now so many mirrors all around us i think i was away abroad and honestly there was everywhere I was going but I always say we weren't meant as a species to look at ourselves or each other this much so there is an over consumption of what I call that the mirrored effect which is seeing ourselves and seeing others a lot more and I do think that has a detrimental effect how would it not on ourselves and each other too you know because we're being mirrored um we're comparing and comparison culture that's innate within us anyway and it's it's and it's fine but when it becomes too much that's when it becomes a lot more toxic i think there's something about just you know where where young people are these days when we think about body image they're struggling people are struggling because again just that kind of comparison with each other and fat boba exists as well these are just my random thoughts but fat boba definitely exists i see all the time when you look around and you notice in this world a lot of it is designed for thin bodies you know going into i know waiting rooms in hospitals going into schools everything is designed for thinner framed or middle framed bodies they're not framed for bigger proportion bodies whatsoever classic example is flights isn't it things where people have to who are bigger in proportion have to sit on seats and stuff like that but you can imagine the effect that that has on on ourselves and for those struggling with kind of bigger bodies too also I just forgot to add just you know how body image links in on our sense of you know self and who we are obviously I can name the the typical kind of mental health difficulties that we can experience when we're constantly in that comparative culture you know eating disorders low self-esteem anxiety and depression self-harming they're all on the rise for me the major major issue is we are disconnecting from our bodies and from each other the last point is we're not taught as a society you know growing up our schooling system educational system even ourselves at home we're taught about you know major curriculums like english maths i don't know geography history but there's not a curriculum there's not a there's not a manifesto for how we learn to take care of ourselves how we learn to kind of nurture our bodies and our minds it's not it's not it's not a given in schools and it really should be it should be given in households in early years education in earlier experiences you know nothing was mentioned to me when I was you know pregnant and with kids and things about how bodies change and bodies evolve and and that's where the way they are designed but we're not really taught about that for our lives and especially in the schooling system too so I do think there needs to be a bit of a big big overall really in the health and social care and education departments.

39:51Thank you so much for that I think it's so important and also to reiterate this isn't just a female story this is a male story as well and actually recently I think it's well worth a watch especially you know I'm a mom of two boys at the moment and it was a 26 minute Channel 4 documentary and one of the characters I don't actually watch it but from the new Maiden Chelsea cast, Miles, he investigates something called muscle dysmorphia, which is called bigorexia, Ella. And he explained that he was so all consumed with body image to the point it was impacting his everyday life. And there was one really pivotal clip that I saw with his sister where he, you know, on Christmas Day, he'd got up at two in the morning, two or three in the morning to go to the gym so he could fit it in and then have his protein shakes and all the things he believed he had to have to look a certain way to live the life and it was miserable and he's raising awareness on that side as well and I think it's called Untold Obsessed With My Muscles on channel four and we might be a female predominant podcast here but we are well aware that body image can impact everyone.

41:02That sounds like an absolutely amazing watch Rhi thank you so so much for highlighting that. Okay. Right. Headline three, totally different, short and snappy, Dutch courage, Gen Z. I would never know whether we're meant to say Gen Z or Gen Z. I say Gen Z, but I'm not American. It just doesn't feel right. Yeah. You guys tell us what you think. Okay. Gen Z, Gen Z, reach for a different type of brew. Okay. So there was a new survey. Now I think, let's just be honest, this survey was done by Twining. So they're a tea company. They probably want things to look a certain way, but this is just fun, which is that 47 % of 18 to 27 year olds said tea was their favorite drink instead of alcohol when preparing for daunting occasions, like a first date or a job interview.

41:48Anyway, I thought that was really cool because people normally talk about Dutch courage and like having a drink to get themselves ready. I know it's hilarious. They said, yeah, 60 % of Gen Z, Gen Z respondents said they made a cup of tea to mentally prepare for an important event. I think it speaks volumes with the shifting culture, Ella. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it at all. It's absolutely remarkable. I will still say there's caffeine in tea, guys, if you're having it later in the evening. Just remember that. I think this was like all sorts of different teas, like chamomiles and mints and like a lovely little brew.

42:19I loved it. Wow. A positive fact, see, of what a time to live through that there are positive changes coming. The alcohol. Oh, go on. What is it? Debbie Downer in the corner over here. Well, interestingly, then doing a bit of reading around this, there was a report that came out from the University of Leeds titled What's Behind Gen Z? Gen Z's Drinking Decline. And this was actually, I mean, whilst the drinking decline is inherently positive, we know alcohol is incredibly bad for us, so we should drink less. This is quite sad because, as we know, there has been this sharp shift in drinking culture.

42:56for example 26 to 28 percent of gen z are t total i mean that's really high versus older generations but as i said very clear the drinking less is positive health outcomes but their research in this paper was showing that actually what it also signifies is growing generational anxiety and insecurity around the world so it's sort of a good news story in one way for our health but actually not such a good news story in terms of mental wellbeing. And that this declining alcohol consumption coincides with worsening mental health and increased loneliness, and also a feeling of insecurity that's exacerbated by the wider world issues that we know about at the moment, job insecurity, cost of living crisis, climate crisis.

43:43And so actually, I think it adds to this pressure to maximise health, productivity, control what you can control. And drinking less was seen as one of a series of actions that gives this sense of control against these overwhelming societal, economic, environmental challenges. That is very true. To go back to tea, it is relaxing. If you have a traditional black tea or even a green tea, you've got the L-theanine benefits. We've discussed that before with GABA and the brain. But I mean, cost of living, it makes perfect sense because alcohol businesses, we were discussing this the other day, weren't we Ella have literally plummeted and there's obviously a huge rise in alternative drinks category I saw Jay Shetty promoting a can of um I don't even know what's in what's in Jay Shetty's I can't remember what's in his but yeah he has his his own one Juni I think Juni yeah he's created one there's lots of people lots of um influencers and celebrity culture are bringing out non-alcoholic drinks and wines because the market's booming is that correct Ella you're my guru in all areas the market is growing yeah it's very interesting anyway i like the idea of drinking tea because you're nervous as opposed to a drink also so british i mean you could not get a more classic stereotype oh a cup of tea yeah exactly terrified the world's on fire camembert tea will fix it our next trend was in vogue ella um i actually just nodded my head when i saw this consumers are fatigued, influencers are burnt out.

45:17What now? Yeah, this was in Vogue Business and it's a very long piece. A lot of it says what lots of us probably already know, but there were a couple of interesting things worth picking up, which is basically, as we know, it's getting, even with the best will in the world, it's getting really, really hard for influencers, content creators, brands to cut through the algorithm. Competition's fiercer and fiercer, the algorithm's more and more difficult. And consumers, unsurprisingly, just feel like they're being sold to all the time. And that feels a little bit frustrating. I think we did know that.

45:53But a couple of interesting things, the global creator economy, so influencer economy, essentially, hovers at around 250 billion. It's enormous. Goldman Sachs is forecasting that to grow to about$480 billion by 2027. So it is a fast growing sector. But 73%, this was a bit that I thought was interesting to point out, 73 % of social media users believe influencers promote a lifestyle that's unrealistic to most. I mean, re-sent me this video last night, it's like a three hour morning routine. It's just, it's so unrealistic, it's unbelievable. and 58 % of us consumers get bored quickly and they move on to new influencers.

46:37And I think that is also worth pointing out. So the first one I think is interesting in terms of people feeling not great about themselves versus influencers. And we have to remember that their job is to be interesting and have newness because as the second point says, we get bored so quickly. So if you don't have clickbait, if you don't have newness, if you don't have something that even creates that rage bait or that, oh my God, this is insane as per that content yesterday. Not bad news. Doesn't spiral. If it's not unrealistic, it doesn't go viral. Exactly. And I just think those two stats really explain your feed, basically.

47:12It's a saturated world. I think what's also happened is it used to be, I mean, those of us that can remember the start, it used to be quite a small space and it was quite interesting. But now, because it's just being replicated, everyone's doing the same trends, the same things. There's no substance. So it's an enormous market. So there is so much money to be made. And that is why people are so busy creating content for us to consume. They know that we get bored really quickly. So it's got to have an element of clickbait in. And if you feel bad about yourself when you look at social media, basically everyone does because they promote a completely unrealistic lifestyle, whether that's time, whether that's money, whether that's kind of beauty standards.

47:55There's so much to it. But I just think it really explains why your feed can get wacky, which I think leads on to point number two. It does lead on to point number two. Just before we go there, I saw this video from, I think it was Danielle Pisa, an old friend, and she created a video that said, Instagram's now got so boring that the people that are going viral are the ones that are telling you how to make content to go viral. And they're the ones with these, yeah, these accounts that are growing are the ones telling you, these are the trends of the month. this is what you've got to do this is how i went viral and then they're the ones that are growing it's insane but it's also because it's such a big market as we just said it's worth so much money no wonder everyone wants a piece of the pie they want a piece of the pie um talking of pie or rather no pie like that let's go to miranda who i thought before we do go into this came across very well on one of my other favorite podcasts the um we need to talk one with paul brunson you know the the one I've recommended before where Kerry Katona did an interview.

48:54But this I felt was completely unrealistic and maybe she should have kept it to herself. Anyway, Ella, you go for it. Look, this is one of those things that's so interesting in the sense of the virality. Because, yeah, I don't have any issue with Miranda Kerr as a general role. She seems like a nice lady. She said some nice things. But when these clips go viral, they're just really difficult for people to understand what to do and what not to do. So she went on to a podcast hosted by Kirsten Cavallari. Anyone used to watch The Hills? She was on The Hills. Oh my God, did you not watch The Hills?

49:33When I was singing, I didn't have a TV in London. I missed The O.C., I missed The Hills, like all these shows. Oh my gosh, you got to go back and watch them. Exactly right. Extra scoop conversation for Thursday. Oh, Rhi, when you're like breastfeeding and you know, I mean, when I was breastfeeding may over her first few weeks i watched the whole of game of thrones that is such a weird thing to do when you've got like a two-day old baby oxytocin stimulating show ella it's so unhinged but this these are good like the oc is so good but my husband loves them obsessed okay so she's from the hills i think she was on the one before the hills as well was it called like laguna beach was like anyways i loved all that stuff right she has a podcast didn't know this but It's called Let's Be Honest.

50:13And she had Miranda Kerr on it. Now, I haven't listened full disclosure to the whole episode. I have to say, I don't feel a burning desire to do it. But I always think it is so important to note that what we're talking about has been taken wildly out of context because it's a 30 second clip from a one hour interview. And we don't know what else she said. And I always think that's so important because that's how we're consuming it and understanding it. but we're not understanding it because she might have said something she might have said that she eats haribo every other day a minute later and i always think that's that's one of the issues on instagram isn't it anyway same as the tim specter quotes that got blown out of proportion and about the two meals things yeah so you don't know what's been said people could take anything do you remember i said the other day like i let my girls have coca-cola you could take that and make it look like all i feed my children is coca-cola whereas actually they've had it once in their life that I could get turned into a newspaper article very easily.

51:10That's what happens to my friends. I won't say that now, but I have a few friends. It happens to them all the time. Do you know what? Really deliberately, and I love the show because I feel like this is a bit private, but I stopped sharing basically anything remotely interesting, essentially, online so many years ago because I just didn't want to be relevant. I don't want to be relevant. I actually want to be really unrelevant. I just want to talk to a community of people who are genuinely interested because I don't want to be part of that world. and it was so miserable and there was a moment of like peak relevancy for me and I remember I was traveling loads for work after like in the early days my books the first book came out in like 35 languages and I was traveling so much to promote the book and I remember that the Daily Mail ran a headline about how I was like the world's worst dog owner because I kept leaving my puppy I owned the dog with my husband who was at home with the dog and I was traveling for work anyway i just remember things like that and being like i just don't want any part in this anyways because this is not about me but she was talking about her kind of health and wellness routines so should we just play the clip yeah play the clip oh i don't do eggs okay so what's a breakfast for you i do protein so i eat meats like venison oh yeah bison yeah lamb i eat all the meats that aren't mass-produced so you're not doing sushi oh never never parasites i know i do love caviar I know.

52:32Me too. Caviar's good. There's no parasites there. No, there's no parasites. It is good for you, isn't it? Yeah, it's very good for you. It's good for you. It's a good fat. Personally, no dairy, no wheat. Will you eat sourdough? No. Will you do rice? Do you do any carbs? I really eat a lot of squash. Okay. And carrots. Yeah, okay. And parsnips. I don't eat kale. You don't eat kale? Okay. Will you eat spinach? Mm-mm. So you really, I mean, you are super healthy. Mm-mm. Right. So when I first watched it, the clip had about 4 million plays on Instagram. I'm sure it's had loads on TikTok. But then because people are doing all these like stitch up versions, the stitch up versions have also had many millions of views.

53:10Yeah, they've made them comical. Some of them really laughing at it because, of course, what Miranda Kerr is describing is a classic summary of what she does. And of course, it lacks. She's not a nutrition professional, a health professional. She's just saying what she thinks is healthy. And I think what's quite amusing is when the person interviewing her goes, wow, so you're so healthy. And she's like, yeah. That's the bit that's crazy because actually she's just saying what she does. Right. So she's not saying you should do it. She's saying what she does. And she basically says exactly that.

53:44She says, I don't eat kale and I don't eat spinach. And then Kirsten says, so you're really healthy. I know. And it's like, sorry, wait a second, let's just backtrack. Let's just understand. Sorry, so she's really healthy because she eats a lot of bison and she doesn't eat any kale and spinach. Also, that's not healthy for so many people to consume that much red meat. But she was basically emphasizing in her own words that she lives a very low processed way of living. So foods that have gone through a minimal degree of alteration in a factory. And the reason in America, Her pesticide use is very different.

54:23And that's why I'm assuming she says that she eats lots of squashes and carrots, Ella. And she doesn't eat a lot of salad like produce or kales or spinach because the amount of spray. Well, I'm not sure if that's why or if it's like... Maybe oxalates. Maybe she's concerned about oxalates. I mean, who knows what myth and misconception? There's nothing wrong with kale or spinach. They're really good for you. But it's so unrelatable to the general public that can't even get five a day to say, I only eat these very rare meats that literally probably have to, oh, it breaks my heart, shoot in the forest and bring it over to my plate in the morning.

54:56And then I'll just eat the squash that's grown in my garden and carrots because there is season and then that's it. I mean, live from the land, but that is not something you want to be promoting on social media. It's everything wrong with what I eat in a day. No other carbohydrates. Instead, it's the squash, carrot, and parsnips. And again, And look each to their own. And parasites. She said parasites. She said no sushi because of parasites. But caviar. Yeah. But then she eats fish eggs, caviar. It was a very bizarre conversation. And I think it really wraps the episode up quite nicely with what we talked about at the beginning, which is eat food, mostly plants, not too much.

55:36Or words to that effect from Michael Pollan, because it is exactly right. And we just get down these clips go viral and people suddenly think, OK, I can't eat rice i can't eat bread i can't eat squash kale's really bad for me i can never have sushi again i need to eat caviar instead of bison and then should i have loads of protein or no protein am i meant to be on glp ones and be a double zero or am i not meant to be and it's just so overwhelming and confusing it's just another classic example of um our fascination with women's diets and celebrity culture because actually once again you don't see many male podcasts or male podcasters or celebrities being asked what they eat in a day unless they're in an action hero movie we're still at that typical stereotype of let's ask every woman what she eats so she can look the way she does but oh let's just let the men talk about the work of the art that they produce that's still very frustrating to me do you know what rhea i see all the time on my Instagram feed are like, spend 24 hours eating like Kendall Jenner with me or spend 24 hours eating like Zendaya with me.

56:42I have never seen spend 24 hours eating like Tom Holland or spend 24 hours eating like Ryan Gosling. No, no. And in fact, the only ones I see were the classic Hugh Jackman for Wolverine. There's a lot of that that still circulates, you know, Marvel action hero type. Let's emulate your action hero because there seems to just be this emphasis on the female our body being all about how you look. It's not that we can contribute in any other way to society, but body image. And that I think is what is the most immensely frustrating. No. And this constant conflation between aesthetics and how your body looks and health, and they are not the same thing.

57:22Within reason, they are not the same thing. And I think that's probably a really nice way to end today's episode. The reason people end up eating so much protein, generally speaking, it's much less for health and it's much more for a lean physique. You know, the reason we follow certain people's advice online is often because we just want to look like them. And ultimately, that doesn't necessarily equate to great health. No, exactly. So please do pop us an email and tune in on Thursday this week because we've got a really good show, Ella. We've got Can You Eat Your Way to Better Skin? Is Berberine really nature's a zempic i think that's something that's been doing the rounds over to probiotics and cholesterol we even go into marmite alongside the mediterranean principles so tune in on thursday yes we have lots of recommendations and we are going to unpick a little bit more from banana gate because we've had a couple more questions on that perfect so thank you everybody once again and we're not going anywhere we will be here with you this year and beyond we love it thank you for listening see you soon

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